
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 25 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 500



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Sword Worlders or Darrians for Traveller PBeM
Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited)
Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited) 
Updated Link for Hyphen's Page.
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #489
Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]
Re: SCRAM
Re: SCRAM
Re: SCRAM
Re: GT: Trojan Reaches
Traveller PBeM - Entropic Worlds: the time lag issue.
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Patches
Re: SCRAM
Entropic Worlds -- The Games a Foot! 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:33:10 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498

Splurt --- Just consider the grief the "minuet" caught in it's time...

"Is there a thing of which it is said,
    "See, this is new"?
It has already been,
    in the ages before us."
Ecclesiastes 1:10

- - -----Original Message-----
>From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 4:48 PM
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498
>
>
>>It's been tried before, more than once -- and every time, that defence
>>gets shot down in flames. As it should be. The media has always been
>>a convenient scapegoat. Think back to the early days of rock-and-roll
>>music, over 40 years ago, and how that was going to destroy the minds
>>of the youth...
>
>
>Heck, you can go back even earlier. Jazz got a bad rap in its heyday.


William

- - --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

- ------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:14:28 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

>>Now *really* seriously...no one is going to ban black pants, nor
>>black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.  The
>>entire ensemble will probably draw a lot of attention in some
>>circles for a while, but then again it should.
>

The day after  Denver, A boy was sent home from the school where I teach for
wearing a black trench coat.
I imagine that  trench  coats in general will join  the list of no-no's on
our dress code next year.
The concern is not the  symbolism, but the ability to conceal items in the
long coat. Same reason  why baggy jackets/coats are already banned here.

If most dress codes are like our school's, anything that "distracts" is
going to be banned.  That is the blanket statement to cover things that are
not spelled out.
There is also a great chance that we will finally get uniforms.    In
Houston (near where I teach)  70% of   the students in the district wear
uniforms.   I am sure our district will do something in response to  this
event due to the fact that one of our High School principals is in Denver
since he has specialized training in crisis intervention.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 13:26:01 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Sword Worlders or Darrians for Traveller PBeM

>From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
>Subject: Sworld Worlders or Darrians Needed! PBeM message
>
>Needed! Experience Traveller player who is familiar with the new GURPS 
>Traveller game or GURPS in general. Seeking a military minded gamer to 
>control the Sword Worlds or Darrian confederation in a "Pocket Empires"
style 
>campaign. (No mathematicians or economists please). Play will center on the 
>use of player generated or maintained characters used in a network to gather 
>information and then influence the game environment. 

Count me in.

How are you going to deal with communication time lags ?

>I would like to have a military-political flavor in this campaign so if your 
>wargaming experienced please apply. Fans of the GDW Fifth Frontier War or 
>Invasion Earth might like this campaign. 

Seriously, get the G:T Far Trader and figure out the trade routes for the
subsectors. Draw them into the master map with red, yellow and blue lines.

It will let you assess civilian shipping requirements and the direct and
indirect impacts of blockades - it hurts to be blockaded, but it also hurts
the worlds who now cannot import from you.

>
>If this current milieu setting continues to not attract interest I am 
>considering shifting from the Entropic Worlds/1120 setting to a T4-Pocket 
>Empires one. 

I *like* the end of the Long Night. None of those mega-sized Imperial
fleets, for a start.

>
>I am also interested in comments as to why my attempts to recruit players
are 
>not working. 
>

The 'no economists or mathematicians' line. You should have said
'Post-Sraffites need not apply, as matrix theory is not supported under the
version 1.0 economics rules.' or similar.

'No Spofulams' could have been a concept, as well.

Oh yeah. And definitly no Kenji.

Ian Whitchurch


>Thanks for reading this email. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 22:52:29 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited)

Sir you can play at your own pace if your interested. The game will most 
resemble a spy game more than anything in that your going to be placing then 
manipulate character networks. I plan on holding play-action to the real time 
travel times so your schedule may not be a problem in keeping up with the 
other players. If your still interested I can send you a text file explaining 
the campaign concept and mechanics. Which text files can you use, ascii, word 
or word perfect? I will be able to send you strategic maps in bmp format or 
git if you can read those. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:35:54 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited) 

> Sir you can play at your own pace if your interested. The game will most 
> resemble a spy game more than anything in that your going to be placing then 
> manipulate character networks. I plan on holding play-action to the real time 
> travel times so your schedule may not be a problem in keeping up with the 
> other players. If your still interested I can send you a text file explaining 
> the campaign concept and mechanics. Which text files can you use, ascii, word 
> or word perfect? I will be able to send you strategic maps in bmp format or 
> git if you can read those. 

I'd love to lurk in that game if I could...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:56:54 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Updated Link for Hyphen's Page.

Hyphen, the link for Candles Against The Night, my Traveller page, has 
changed.  The new link is:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller/

Tried emailing this to you, but your provider hates my provider.

Thanxx, and thanxx again for the 4 star rating.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:48:39 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #489

G'day all,

on 22/4/99 Glenn Goffin spoke thusly;

<<snipped>>

>> When the world signs the allegiance document, it gives the selected
>> starport (and such adjacent lands as agreed upon) to the Imperium as an
>> indefinite lease, coupled with a declaration of extrality. The Imperium now
>> controls the starport's operations, personnel, regulations, finances, and
>> so forth, and the world no longer has jurisdiction over the area.
>
>I would think that the world would have to grant full title to the land
>to the Imperium, not merely lease it.  A lease only makes sense if the
>world and Imperium contemplate someday parting company.  Does the
>Imperium allow secession?  I don't think so.  Permanent membership is
>part of the political dynamic of the Imperium:  The world gets almost
>total local control forever, as well as the benefits of interstellar
>trade and Imperial defense.  The Imperium gets a starport, taxes, a
>conscript pool, and another world that is never a security threat.

I would have suspected that any world joing the 3I would not voluntarily
enter into the agreement if they thought they could not get out.  Few, if
any, people will do so, especially on a world-state level.  Most
non-conquered people would not enter into an agreement to have someone else
ultimately govern them unless they fewlt they could withdraw from the
arrangement.  I would see a withdrawal clause being in many agreements
between the 3I and member worlds.

<<snipped>>

>I generally agree, except that starships are allowed to have nuclear
>missiles.  The Imperial Rules of War only prohibit the use of nuclear
>weapons on member states.  The rationale is economic:  nuclear weapons
>destroy the infrastructure on a large scale and have persistent and wide
>area effects (i.e., radiation and fallout).  These are not problems in
>space -- at most, ships will destroy each other, which is not a loss to
>the Imperium on the scale of losing a city.  Therefore, the Imperium
>allows ships to possess nuclear missiles for self-defense.  

IIRC, isn't there something canon about disallowing the ownership of nukes
by civvies ?

Just thinkin' out loud ....

Dave H

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 06:21:07 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]



>>that we should be very careful as a group how we present ourselves,
>>and consider carefully whether we want pencil-and-paper roleplaying
>>games associated with first-person shooter video games in the public
>>eye.
>
>Damn straight!
>
>For my part, I *don't* connect the two.  In my games combat/violence
>tends to occur rarely, because of its rarity it really does stand
>out, but has never been the primary focus.  The primary focus tends
>to be character interaction...not something the FPK games do at
>all....exploration and creative/building pursuits.
>
>All, IMO, of course,


Woah, slow down a minute there, Eris (and Mr. Thrash, and all others who
reply positively). You're making the *mistaken* assumption that everybody
who plays Doom and Quake style games plays RPGs the same way. That's not at
all the case. As I pointed out, the vast majority of my RPG companions play
first person shooters. Interestingly enough, there's no direct correlation
between how the games are *played*.

Here are some examples from my own Traveller games of what I mean:

1.) TNE: Party goes to free another player character from a partially
functioning 3rd Imperium prison. It has been converted to a work camp where
the descendents of the prisoners and slaves brought by the Guild mine
radioactive materials. The prisoners and slaves die in the process, as could
be expected. The party poses as a group of free traders looking to purchase
radioactive materials. They meet with the head of the work camp. When his
guard is down (thanks to Tetris... don't ask, it's a long story) they knock
him out. They free all of the prisoners. In the process, they kill one
guard. The angry slaves revolt once they are free. Although things get out
of hand during the "riot," they are extremely careful about wanton killing.

2.) circa 1105: The party is hired by a business person to kidnap a rival
for a few days to give her a chance to make a deal that will save her
company from going under. The group, as a whole, tries to minimize injury to
the victims. One of the characters gets trigger happy and murder's one of
the guy's bodyguards in cold blood. Most of the party members are outraged.
Several sessions later, the bloodthirsty character is spaced for a number of
reasons, mostly due to his extremely violent nature. Two members of the
party openly object to the spacing.

3.) circa 1105: The party is in the employ of a megacorporation. They are
ordered, under false pretenses, to assassinate the daughter of a lab head. A
huge bonus is offered to them. Along the way, they discover bits and pieces
of the truth. Piecing it together, they go against their orders and whisk
her off to the safety of a rival megacorp. In doing so, they end up hunted
by their own people.

The most popular series of sessions I ran contained nothing more violent
than a single fist fight! It was a subsector-wide scavenger hunt. The only
time a weapon was fired was during a shooting contest to protect the honor
of the ISS Dresden. They mostly tried to stay one step ahead of the other
ships in the hunt. They did this by guile (tricking the hunters from other
ships into picking up the wrong thing, giving wrong directions to certain
planetary landmarks), roleplaying and general wit. It was one of the more
interesting and entertaining campaigns I've run for any game. From the
response of the players, they seemed to be getting a real challenge and a
real kick out of it.

Regardless, the issue isn't whether both are intertwined structurally. When
I play Quake, Doom or something similar, it's for an entirely different
reason than when I play Traveller, or AD&D, or GURPS. All I'm saying is that
all of this talk of distancing groups of roleplayers makes me nervous. It's
not like roleplayers, as a group, aren't already fractured enough. It's bad
enough I have to keep track of the GURPS vs. AD&D camps, the CT vs. MT vs.
TNE camps, the G:T vs. traditional Trav camps and so on...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 04:42:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote
>
>> The plasma inside a neon light tube may be at a million degrees. It's
>> just *thin* as all get out. The total *heat* content is virtually nil.
>
>> To generate 250 MW requires fusing a mere 2.7 *micrograms* of hydrogen
>> per second. At *one hundred* million degrees, that wouldn't have 
>> enough heat energy to melt an ice cube. Not even if only 1 in a 
>> million atoms fuses (ie there would be 2.7 grams of hydrogen in there).
>
> So what exactly will happen when a PC sticks their hand in the fushion
> chamber then?  [Assuming their hand does not disrupt the containment.]

Well, for one thing, they are likely to get a *severe* case of "vac
bite" as the portion of the chamber outside the plasma will be a fairly
good *vacuum*. 

Second, assuming magnetic or electrostatic confinement, he's gonna get
zapped pretty badly by the charge diferences (can you say *big* spark?)

Third, the neutrons and EM radiation (UV, gamma, X-Ray, etc) will give
him a nice sunburn. 

4th, if he actually *contacts* the plasma, things should get
interesting. It is thin, but it also has a fair amount of energy. He'll
definitely screw up the fusion reaction, but say he only gets the
energy from the last 1/10th of a second of reaction. In a 250 MW
reactor, that'd be 25 MJ. 

Given how *thin* the stuff is, I'd say damage would be more like a PAW
strike than that from a flame or hot gases. Not just surface damage,
but damage all the way thru as the *very* high speed ions deposit
energy thru the entire thickness of the hand.


BTW, I *am* revising my previous stance a bit. If containment fails,
the chamber will have to deal with the energy of some fraction of a
second of the reactor's output.  For example, the 25 MJ above. Which is
the energy equivalent of about 6 kilos of TNT. So it *could* damage the
reactor. But it's nowhere near the "nuclear catastrophe" most folks
imagine.

It might injure someone near the reactor, and it'd *definitely* make
the cheif engineer cuss a lot. But it's also the sort of thing that you
can design the chamber to handle. After all, that's 6 kg of TNT spread
over *how* many cubic meters?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 04:56:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

> Peter Newman wrote:
 
>> So what exactly will happen when a PC sticks their hand in the fushion
>> chamber then?  [Assuming their hand does not disrupt the containment.]
>
> Well, there's a loud hisssss as atmosphere rushes into the chamber (fusing
> plasma will double as a reasonably good vaccuum) followed by repeated loud
> smacking sounds as the chief engineer beats the PC silly for wrecking the
> ship's power supply by putting a hole in the containment vessel big enough to
> stick their hand through.
>
> Plasma is very hot, but there's so little mass there that it ca't heat
> anything sustantial up very much.

As I noted, it'll be more like sticking his hand in the path of a
particle beam of similar power. Ooops.

> OTOH, other compnents of the fusion powerplant can be really
> dangerous to mess with. Somewhere along the line a significant
> portion of the energy given off by the fusion reaction does get
> turned into heat, which needs to be gotten rid of. It just isn't
> stored in the plasma, but in the MHD coils or steam turbines or
> whatever mechanism is used to turn energy from the fusion reaction
> into electricity.

That's why I like the Electrostatic confinement design. They think
they'll be able to get it to turn the fusion energy *directly* into
electricity with 85-90% efficiency!

Oh yeah, since the required "spherical grid" for breakeven looks like
it'll have to be able 5 meters across, you can just toss the whole
idiot in after his hand. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 05:02:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> AFAIK (And I am by no means qualified to answer this), this is something
>>> that only happens on nuclear-powered ships (I've only seen it in context 
> of
>>> a sub, but I see no reason this can't be used in other vessels).  A SCRAM
>>> is the process of flooding the reactor with seawater in order to cool it
>>> rapidly.  This is only done in _extreme_ emergencies, as it pretty much
>>> destroys the reactor and floods the local ecosystem with tons of very
>>> radioactive water.  AFAIK this has never actually been done IRL.
>
> You can also kill th ereactor if the control rods fail by flooding it with
> a material like boron which kills the reaction by inhibiting neutron
> motion.
>
> Gas cooled reactors like the AGR have loads of small pellets which are
> blown in IIRC.
>
> Not sure about those PWRs you Americans are so fond of ;-)

Standard procedure is to have *big* tank of water saturated with some
boron compound placed such that when the proper values are opened,
*gravity* will let it flood the reactor, displacing the normal coolant.

As I noted elsewhere, this leaves one *hell* of a mess to clean up, as
the reactor is going to "run funny" until you get all that boron out of
it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 14:04:25 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Re: GT: Trojan Reaches

Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:15:14 PDT "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Just throwing an idea out...I thought it would be a good idea for a new sector sourcebook...Since one has never been done..to my "limted" knowledge... :)
> SJG would be giving a lot back to the Traveller universe...I mentioned this to Martin Dougherty..and he said he'd be glad to write it...maybe if we got a ground swell going...Just an idea...Now back to the discussion on Vargr food choices :) Or was that Vargr as food...Hmmmm... :)

Although I would love to see a *new* sector source book, I think (like another previous poster) that it'd be nice with a sector never detailed before...

Trojan Reach was detailed (not like the Spinward Marches, but enough to start playing) in the Travellers' Digest, and, in fact, most of the area behind the claw has, IMO, been done to death.

It would be nice to see some other part of the Imperium (or Charted Space) covered - most of the trailing parts of the Imperium has never been done, especially those lying coreward. Antares sector could e.g. be a very interesting source book...

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 08:57:38 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Traveller PBeM - Entropic Worlds: the time lag issue.

In a message dated 4/25/99 1:51:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ianw@orac.net.au 
writes: (In reference

<< Heres the time problem. Lets say my agent down at Forine in District 268
 has a report about the 100th Fleet in Glisten. To get the message to Narsil
 is going to take about a month with the jump-3 ships of the Sword
 Worlds(Forine-Bowman Belt-Flammarion-Narsil).
 
 The report gets digested in Narsil (call it a week), and then takes another
 2 weeks to get to Gram or Sacnoth.
 
 Thus, it's going to take 2 months to get a confirmation message back to our
 people on Forine, and another month on top of that to get something
 meaningful back.
 
 What I'd suggest is to have each PC as a decision maker, and be ruthless
 about delaying messages between them. Track the position of information,
 not just the position of people ...
  >>

Sir you've hit on the exact reason I am going with the multi-player 
"strategic" format rather than attempting a straight role-playing game on 
line. The multi-player network allows for the built-in time lags that are 
part of the Traveller Universe. By allowing players to manage a network, they 
will be able to balance their characters to have some in transit, while 
others are doing tasks on world. Thus no down time for actual play. Also the 
normal "month" to transit from one world to another is perfect for the pbem 
format aiming for one turn a month per player.  Based on my experience with 
past games in the Star Trek genre, players will probably settle on between 
three to six characters with which their personalized game will revolve 
(actually taking on the persona of the most powerful character in most 
cases).  Although I personally as a referee think the GURPS Traveller game 
should have tied the GT characters' ages to the amount of starting character 
points to reflect that very important part of the original Traveller game, 
players I have interacted with all like having the standard 100 character 
points, up to 40 points in disadvantages, etc., as outlined in the GT rule 
book. To facilitate play, I am setting the starting points for all characters 
regardless of position held in the pbem game at 100 character points, 40 
points disadvantages, etc., as per the GT rulebook.  May I suggest for that 
you consider using one of the GURPS character creation programs featured on 
their computer aids site at Steve Jackson Games. I am using both the GURPS 
Character Assist (GCA) and the GURPS Character Maker (GCM) program. I prefer 
the GCM program for its usefulness. Combined with the Starship and Astrogator 
programs that Mr. Bont has written we have a wonderful framework for running 
this online game. 

If this campaign is successful, Mr. Bont will deserve the credit for his 
wonderful shareware programs that are making it possible. 

 <A HREF="http://209.39.36.25/gurps/">The FELIX GURPS Page</A> 
 <A HREF="http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/utilities/index.html">Steve Jackson 
Games: Computer Aids For Our Games
</A> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 05:15:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In mail you write:

>>ObTrav: Its this impotence and frustration that are the prime motivation
>>of most terrorists and classic "bad guys".
>
> I disagree with this statement.
>
> Sure, a _few_ of them may have such a motivation, but I'd say _most_
> terrorists and villians have the same motivations as player characters.
>
> The search for the fast buck, an ideological reason, or "heroism",
> they're just heroes for the other side.
>
> The best villians are always relatively sane, moral, patient individuals
> working for the betterment of their race or species, who are demonstrably
> _right_. Someone like a Martin Luther King or Mahatma Ghandi.
>
> But when they are Zhodani or Vargr, it doesn't matter how right they are for
> the Zho's or the Vargr, your players just have to beat then anyway, don't
> they ?
>
> If you add just a touch of pride, and a bit of temper to them, you get good
> comicbook villians like Magneto or Ras Al Ghul, or the Irish RL hero Michael
> Collins.

If you can find copies, read E.E. Smith's "Skylark" series ("Skylark of
Space", "Skylark Three", "Skylark of Valeron", & "Skylark DuQuesne"). 

Marc C. "Blackie" DuQuesne is most definitely a villian. But he's
*interesting* damn it! He's only out to "get" the heroes because they
are in the way of his plans. Nothing personal. And when a threat to the
human race shows up, he negotiates a truce for the duration of the
crisis (and no longer! :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 05:24:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Patches

In mail you write:

> SJ Games is looking into makeing some patches...the embroidered kind, not
> the rubber kind you stick on bicycle tires. Marc thinks Traveller patches
> are a good idea, and has given his OK, and we'd like to know what sort of
> subject matter the Traveller audience is interested in.
>
> We have artwork for Scout service patches in-house, so they have a leg up
> in getting done, but other possibilities include FT Beowulf crew patches,
> Marine, Navy, &  Army units, mercenary outfits and just general "I'm a
> Traveller fan" type stuff. (The first patch will probably be something
> along the linse of the "Eye in Pyramid" logo but if we decide to do
> patches, Traveller is an obvious and early candidate for heavy
> representation).
>
> How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?

I'd be interested in at least a Scout Service patch (the "Poni Express"
one :-)

> What would you be willing to pay?

Not sure.

> What types of patches would you like to see us do?

> We can't do dozens of designs at once, so we need to limit ourselves to the
> more popular ones, and we will need to charge enough so we don't lose money
> selling them.

One suggestion. For the con market, you might consider drawing up
uniform descriptions good enough to let someone take the description
and the patches and create an "official" uniform. That'd also help the
folks with miniatures.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 05:05:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

>>> Nope - rods. Although dumping water into the reactor is possible, in
>>> case of a thermal runaway. If you ever need this, you are likely to be
>>> presented with an immediate sequence of pressing problems.
>>
>>Check the description of a "cold water accident" in either "Red Storm
>>Rising" or "Hunt for Red October". Too much cold water in the reactor
>>at the wrong time can *cause* a runaway reaction.
>
> The injection of high density cold water can indeed result in more neutrons
> adding to the chain reaction. In a loss of coolant accident rods are first
> inserted and then emergency cooling water is injected.  In some designs this
> water is doped with a neutron absorbing rare earth. After this mixture is
> injected the reactor is essentially unrepairable as the mixture coats
> everything.
>
> Clancy is describing the result of an uncontrolled introduction of cold
> seawater into an operating reactor.

An interesting (and *deadly*) variation on this is what happens if you
have the right sized sub-critical masses placed such that a person can
walk between them. The person's *body* acts as a moderator and you'll
get a *huge* jump in fissions. Usually just a bright blue flash and a
*more* than lethal neutron flux. The unfortunate sod basicly gets to
think "Oh Sh*t!" and report to the infirmary to die.

This sort of thing was learned the hard way back in the early days. And
it's why design of storage areas and labs is *real* tricky. You even
have to worry about it in figuring experiment setup if more than one
batch of fissionable material will be in the same room. 

You also have to worry about lots of other materials acting as
moderators *or* as neutron reflectors. 

I'm tempted to try to find a way to set this up as some sort of booby
trap, but it'd be *grossly* unfair in that it'd be nearly impossible to
forsee.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 09:22:15 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Entropic Worlds -- The Games a Foot! 

[Unable to display image]

Well fellow fans of the Traveller Universe, the Entropic Worlds Campaign is 
offically underway. 

You will notice a large number of addresses on this mailing list. Actually 
only four of you are actually being proactive at this point. But remember 
that this is supposed to be a monthy turn formated game. But feel free to 
adjust or modify your "turn" as often as you feel necessary. 

Remember the mechanism that is driving this campaign is the development and 
placement of characters within a network that you are running. I am assuming 
that each of you will actually assume the persona of one of those characters 
directing the other characters from within the play universe. But if that is 
too abstract feel free to run this simply as a wargame. You are able to shift 
from one mode of play to the other as is comfortable to you. 

Remember I can not start generating detailed referee responses to your turns 
until I have your characters in hand. You can query me with play environment 
research questions and rules rulings at your leisure.  I intend to remain as 
true to the Classic Traveller/GURPS Traveller mythos as possible under these 
unique conditions. Please do not assume that something that is not canon in 
the established Traveller universe is permitted until you have checked with 
me. For example: Black Globe generators on all your ships, or a piece of 
Ancients Technology for your own personal use.  I suggest pulling out and 
reviewing your older Traveller materials before beginning the GURPS character 
construction process. 

If you feel overwhelmed by the information within the Traveller lore, I 
suggest you start small, say a single ship or character, and we will build 
from there. For you crusty old Travellers like myself -- the Universe is ours 
to play in once again.  

It is important to remember the times it takes to go from one world to the 
next in Traveller! Generally speaking it takes a ship one month to transit 
from one star to the next regardless of how many actual parsecs actually 
being travelled. Thus the monthly turn sequence I selected for play. 

Ok, most of you have decided on your factions from which your network will 
draw your support. We have Imperial Navy, two megacorporations, the Darrians, 
the Imperial Scouts, and the Sworld Worlders so far. Hopefully I will pick up 
an Aslan player and  the Zhodani. Remember for those of you that played in 
last summer's Star Trek game...there will be no general narrative going out 
to all players this time. Each player will receive a specific response to 
their characters' actions, information will not be shared to the general game 
public. 

Bob the Referee.  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #500
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 25 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 501



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited) 
GT Ghalalk-class Armored Cruiser
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #499
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Patches
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #499
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #499
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #489
Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)
Trojan Reaches vs. Iakr (Foreven) Sector
Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited) 
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)
re: SCRAM
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: RPG Paranoia
Electrostatic Fusion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:32:38 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited) 

In a message dated 4/24/99 11:43:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jamstar@earthlink.net writes:

<< I'd love to lurk in that game if I could... >>
As a newbie I think being able to 'lurk' in this game would be a great way to 
learn it. I know the basics of Traveller. It's the detailed mechanics of the 
game I'd like to follow...So if possible I'd like to be counted in as a 
lurker...

BobS....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:40:02 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: GT Ghalalk-class Armored Cruiser

Hey TMLers:

Here's my GT version of the Ghalalk-class Armored Cruiser.  I mentioned
this a week or two ago when people were discussing conversion from HG to
GT, but real life intervened.  Anyway, here it is.  The HG version is at
the bottom for people who don't have Supplement 9
 
Designer's Notes: My main goal was a balanced design with in the spirit of
the original. I had hoped to provide equal protection against meson and
particle weapons, but it proved much harder to armor against particle
beams.  

The drop capsules are there because of the passing mention of orbital
assault capability for the troops.  Some of the other additions like low
berths are there both to fill out space and for realism (I figure low
berths would be used for some combat casualties, for instance)

I'm assuming that the missile bays fire a larger ship-killing missile but
don't have a design for it yet.

Also, I'm using a few "house rules" modifications, which I listed at the
bottom of this post.

50,000-ton USL Hull
DR: 20,000 (PD: 4)
Radical Stealth 
Radical Emission Cloaking
Complete Compartmentalization

Hardened Command Bridge
Hardened Basic Bridge (backup)
 
3 Engineering Modules (for redundancy)
100 Utility Modules
20,200 Maneuver Drive
2,500 Jump Drive
20,000 Jump Fuel
208 Fuel Processor (12 hrs to process full load, 3 hrs for J-1)
 
Crew Accommodations 
265 Staterooms
9 Low Berth modules (36 Low berths)
3 Sickbays
 
Troop Accommodations
5 Staterooms (for officers/SNCOs)
50 Bunkrooms
10 Powered Armor Morgue modules (200 suits)
4 Drop Capsule Launcher modules (8 tubes) 
15 Drop Capsule modules (240 capsules) 
 
480 Cargo hold
400 Space Dock modules (four 50-dton craft)
 
Screens:
1135 Meson Screen Modules (DR 40,000) **
32 Nuclear Damper (Radius: 35 miles) **
 
Weapons:
195 405-Mj Lasers (65 turrets)
60 Sandcasters (20 turrets)
30 Fusion Guns (15 turrets) [for point defense]
40 Missile Bays
1  Spinal Mount Particle Accelerator ***
 
Crew: 472
Troops: 210
 
Statistics:
Emass: 404,621 tons
LMass: 408,026 tons
Cost: MCr 25,231
Hit Points: 765,000 + 1,200 per turret
Size Modifier: +14

Performance:
Accel: 5.0g (both empty and loaded)
Jump: 4
Air Speed: 600 mph

Rules Modifications:
- ----------------------------
* Turrets add area as per normal; bays are internal and do not add to
surface area.
  
** GT does not give crew sizes for screens.  I assumed 1/100 for meson
screens, 1/8 for nuclear dampers 

*** likewise, no crew size is given for spinal mounts., so I assumed 1/100.
 A TL12 article accelerator would have slightly different stats than the
TL10 version, but I haven't bothered to calculate them yet.


For comparison, here's the USP for the HG version of the ship:

CA-P4459J3-585900-99H09-0  MCr27,927.88  50 ktons 
Bearing             2         411  Y                              TL=15
Batteries           2         511  Z                               Crew=245

Cargo=0, Fuel=24,500, EP=4500, Agility=5, Marines=200
(Z=40, Y=32)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 08:46:46 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #499

At 09:06 PM 1999 04 24 -0400, you wrote:
>> Violence in media today isn't especially realistic, but it *is* more
>> graphic and much less selective.  Victims are shown burning,
>> screaming, gasping for breath, blood gushing and spurting, limbs
>> being ripped off, faces being blown away, and the results aren't
>> kept off camera, they are shown in gory detail.  Our children are
>> soaking up thousands of hours of this stuff every year.
>
>Not mine. They watch zero TV at home, and ocassionally get to watch
>children's cable shows at their grandma's hhouse (which I still don't
>really like). They're perfectly well adjusted and happy kids, and their
>lives don't revolve around worshipping the TV every afternoon.

As a kid, my mother placed very strict controls on what I could watch
and how much I could watch. This may have something to do with the
discrimininating habits I have today. 

This is not to say that all I got to watch was Sesame Street and its
ilk. I remember that Hawaii Five-O was on my "permitted" list. (Hey,
it shows the good guys winning over the criminals in the end...)

Thing is, when it comes to movies I like action/adventure pics, especially
with a dose of SF. But I don't like violence in real life -- just up
on the screen... or in the RPG session, like last night's inaugural 
session of my GURPS Traveller campaign, which included a major firefight
against a group of drug smugglers...

(It's not like the evil drug smugglers didn't *deserve* it...)




     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 07:48:53
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

At 09:14 PM 4/24/99 -0500, you wrote:

>The day after  Denver, A boy was sent home from the school where I teach for
>wearing a black trench coat.
>I imagine that  trench  coats in general will join  the list of no-no's on
>our dress code next year.
>The concern is not the  symbolism, but the ability to conceal items in the
>long coat. Same reason  why baggy jackets/coats are already banned here.

Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a .32
ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 07:47:10
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Patches

At 05:24 AM 4/25/99 PST, you wrote:

>One suggestion. For the con market, you might consider drawing up
>uniform descriptions good enough to let someone take the description
>and the patches and create an "official" uniform. That'd also help the
>folks with miniatures.

as an aside, I've done up what my view of Imperial rank insignia looks
like.  I have Marine and Army enlisted, along with the Marine version of
the universal offcier ranks.

If any one is interested, send me email and I'll send you a copy.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 08:51:43 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #499

>>>Now *really* seriously...no one is going to ban black pants, nor
>>>black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.  The
>>>entire ensemble will probably draw a lot of attention in some
>>>circles for a while, but then again it should.
>
>>So you would find me suspicious because I can often be found dressed 
>>entirely in black? Even if it's just black jeans and a black
>>sweatshirt? :)
>
>Now, did I say suspicious?  I said "draw a lot of attention."  It
>could be good attention.  ;-> OTOH, if *all* you dressed in, all the
>time, was black I might have some concerns...it would qualify as a
>quirk at the very least.

I suppose in GURPS terms, it would be a 1-point Quirk. Part of the
reason is aesthetic -- I look better in black than in primary colours.
Part of it is that black goes with everything when it comes to colour
co-ordination. But it also means that when I *do* wear something brightly
coloured, it creates a bit of a sensation with my co-workers... :)

Still, the image works for some people. Johnny Cash, for instance. 

:)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 09:00:13 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #499

>On 04/24/99 at 02:43 PM,  cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> said:
>
>>>As you know, several court cases are trying to tie violent
>>>television and film content to the commission of violent crimes.
>
>>It's been tried before, more than once -- and every time, that
>>defence gets shot down in flames. As it should be. The media has
>>always been a convenient scapegoat. Think back to the early days of
>>rock-and-roll music, over 40 years ago, and how that was going to
>>destroy the minds of the youth...
>
>You really don't see a *qualitative* differences between now and
>then?  Compare Bill Haley singing "Rock Around the Clock" or the
>bad-boy Rolling Stones to Marilyn Mason...or Nirvana for that
>matter.

Manson and Nirvana -- two performers I could never take seriously.
Manson is a joke -- and I'm pretty sure he knows it as well.

> Compare movies aimed at teens like, the somewhat
>controversial for their time, "Rebel Without a Cause" and "Billy
>Jack"

in which the hero spreads his message of love and peace by beating the
crap out of anyone who gets in his way...

>with "Heathers" or "The Basketball Diaries."  

neither of which I've ever heard of...

>Okay, maybe I'm
>getting old, but I can see large qualitative differences in then and
>now.  I don't think *any* of the above will "mess up" a well
>adjusted teen or adult, but not everyone is well adjusted.

If someone is already well-adjusted, none of these will cause someone
to go over the edge. I rather like Manson's cover of the Eurythmics'
"Sweet Dreams", for instance. (Can't stand Nirvana.)

On the other hand, if someone *isn't* well-adjusted, sooner or later
*something* is going to push them over the edge. It may be a violent
movie, but if that person is never exposed to violent movies to start
with, it will ultimately be something else.

In the meantime, should what you or I have available to watch be
restricted because it *might* set off someone who's not as sane as
we are? 

>Some teens have it easier than others, they are able to "fit in"
>some established respectable group and can get their identity and
>attention from that group.  We all know "the jocks", "the pretty
>girls", "the brains", "the popular kids" "the band geeks", right?
>It doesn't mean they don't feel disaffected, but they have a support
>group with reference points to fall back on.

Then there were the kids like me who fit into none of the above...

>But I remember a few poor souls that just never seemed to fit in
>anywhere.  If the school had been different, larger, more
>impersonal, I might have been that way myself.

I *was* that way myself. And I turned out okay.

Of course, I *did* have a supportive family home environment...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 09:48:09 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #489

>>I generally agree, except that starships are allowed to have nuclear
>>missiles.  The Imperial Rules of War only prohibit the use of nuclear
>>weapons on member states.  The rationale is economic:  nuclear weapons
>>destroy the infrastructure on a large scale and have persistent and wide
>>area effects (i.e., radiation and fallout).  These are not problems in
>>space -- at most, ships will destroy each other, which is not a loss to
>>the Imperium on the scale of losing a city.  Therefore, the Imperium
>>allows ships to possess nuclear missiles for self-defense.
>
>IIRC, isn't there something canon about disallowing the ownership of nukes
>by civvies ?
>
>Just thinkin' out loud ....
>
>Dave H

True. In Classic Traveller, missiles were high explosive, and thus a
nuclear missile was a _very_dangerous_thing_ and treated with respect.

Then, once people started tinkering with designs for TNE, they noticed that
actually _hitting_ a ship with an HE missile (and making it explode) is a
lot harder than the original designers thought. So someone decided to use
detonation lasers for missiles. A great idea for ship combat, but
unfortunately it invalidated either the prohibition on nukes or the
carrying of missiles by civilians.

If you want both realistic missiles and the prohibition on nules in your
campaign, dig out the rules for kinetic kill missiles. These seem to be the
best compromise between canon and the real world. (INO, of course. Not
trying to reignite any flamewars here.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:02:35 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)

Here's another planetoid design. Any comments?


Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller

Ship Description


Crew: 5 bridge crew, 5 engineers, 20 gunners


5000-ton PL Hull, DR 10000, PD 4, Total compartmentalization, 10 Turrets
with 3 lasers each, 4 Missile Bays, Spinal Meson Gun, Meson Screen
(DR10111), Nuclear Damper (32 km range), Hardened Command Bridge,
Engineering, 500 Maneuver, 15 Staterooms, 10 Utility, Spacedock (3 SDBs),
224.8 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 160000 km, AESA 320000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
30 405-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 33, Dmg 5dx100(2), 1/2D Rng 41630 km, MxRng
124900 km, FP 7
Spinal Meson Gun: Exp, Acc 36, Dmg 6dx10000(!), Rng 78080 km, MxRng 234240
km, FP 4243
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 376027.4 tonnes, LMass 380047.1 tonnes, Cost MCr 1385.0,
HP 216000
Performance: Accel 0.1 G (0.1 G empty, 0.1 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
0 km/h


Design Spreadsheet

Structure	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
5000-ton planetoid hull	(5000.0)	1795.9	0.2	10219.3	0.0
Tunnelling	0.0	0.0	0.5	0.0	0.0
Airtight sealing	0.0	0.0	1.4	0.0	0.0
Armour: DR10000, PD4	0.0	355362.6	81.6	0.0	0.0
Total compartmentalization	3.2	359.2	0.0	0.0	0.0
4 weapon bays	200.0	11.8	1.3	2415.5	10.0
10 turrets (30 spaces)	10.0	3.9	0.4	743.2	10.0
Drive Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Engineering module	1.0	3.4	0.2	0.0	0.0
Maneuver drive (0.1G)	500.0	1814.0	145.0	0.0	5.0
Weapon Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
30 405-MJ Lasers	(30.0)	212.2	20.4	0.0	0.0
4 Missile Bays	(200.0)	2245.0	3.4	0.0	0.0
Spinal Meson Gun	1512.0	13712.9	939.0	0.0	0.0
Meson Screen (DR10111)	70.0	317.5	158.1	0.0	0.0
Nuclear Damper (32 km range)	4.0	36.3	16.0	0.0	0.0
Workspace Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Hardened Command Bridge	5.0	20.5	14.5	0.0	5.0
10 utility modules	10.0	104.3	2.5	0.0	0.0
Spacedock	2400.0	0.9	0.0	0.0	0.0
Hold	224.8	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0
Accommodation Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
15 staterooms	60.0	27.2	0.2	0.0	0.0
Miscellaneous Items	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Cargo	(224.8)	(1019.6)	0.0	0.0	0.0
3 SDBs	(1200.0)	(3000.0)	0.0	0.0	0.0
Missiles	0.0	0.0	335.2	0.0	0.0
Totals	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Fully loaded & fitted out	5000.0	380047.1	1720.1	13378.0	30.0
Unloaded with skeleton crew	5000.0	376027.4	1385.0	13378.0	10.0


(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:33:02 -0700
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Trojan Reaches vs. Iakr (Foreven) Sector

I would personally ONLY be interested in areas "Behind The Claw".  The Deneb
Sector is a place I know little about.  What info from the Regency
Sourcebook could be reprinted?   Also, who owns the rights to the
Travellers' Digest Trojan Reach articles?  Could they be recycled into a
GURPS suplement or Pyramid articles?

I understand that the Foreven Sector (Left/Spinward of the Spinward Marches)
was originally setup as "reserved for GMs".  I'd personally like to see the
Foreven subsectors that border the Spinward Marches heavily detailed by
members of this list.

What I've found on the web for this area:
http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/iakrdot.html
http://hem.passagen.se/berserk/traveller/data/index.html

Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:49:49 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited) 

In a message dated 4/25/99 10:48:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
RnLschaefr@aol.com writes:

<< As a newbie I think being able to 'lurk' in this game would be a great way 
to 
 learn it. I know the basics of Traveller. It's the detailed mechanics of the 
 game I'd like to follow...So if possible I'd like to be counted in as a 
 lurker...
 
 BobS.... >>

Your added as a lurker...:) 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 13:02:28 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/25/99 8:00:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a .32
 ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks. >>

In SF? You like to live dangerously...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:09:54 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

><< Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a
.32
> ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks. >>

Hehe, too bad your swim trunks would violate dresscode too.
Your mommy would have to come    get    you..

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 13:29:30 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)

- ----------
> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> Here's another planetoid design. Any comments?
> 
> 
> Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)
> Designed by Robert Prior
> 
> This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller
> 
> Ship Description

Shouldn't planetoids be losing some available internal volume?  This is
more of an issue for jump-capable designs like your merchant ship but I
inadvertently deleted that so I thought I'd mention it here.


>15 Staterooms

Shouldn't there be at least one single occupancy stateroom?  I'd expect 
the CO to have his own cabin.

> Performance: Accel 0.1 G (0.1 G empty, 0.1 G overloaded),

With no significant acceleration, it's going to be very easy to simply
bypass this rock.   If it doesn't happen to be lying in the path of the
attacker, it will never get there.


> Design Spreadsheet
> 
[snip]
> 4 weapon bays	200.0	11.8	1.3	2415.5	10.0
> 10 turrets (30 spaces)	10.0	3.9	0.4	743.2	10.0
[snip]

I'm not sure how the crew calculations are working here.  10 turret gunners
makes sense, but there should be only 8 bay crew, plus an unspecified
number of crew for the spinal mount, certainly more than 2.  I used 15
spinal mount crew for my Armored Cruiser conversion, which uses the same
spinal mount.


> Meson Screen (DR10111)	70.0	317.5	158.1	0.0	0.0

It will make things easier of you use a round number for DR.  DR 10,000 is
much easier to use than 10,111.

General Comments:
There's no sickbay, which would seem to be important in a warship, even one
this small.  

> (Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
> Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

Tom Schoene 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 13:13:51 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: SCRAM

At 03:36 PM 4/22/99 PDT, you wrote:
>I will get out my modern physics textbook and run some numbers over 
>the above points soon.  I'll also try to think of ways a fusion 
>reactor would "run amock", thus requiring heroic PC intervention.

	Eagerly awaiting "real" ideas about fusion plant failures ... I've
always wanted/needed to know, both as a referee and a player ...
although once I saved our ship from being vaporized by starport
defenses  by convincing the starport officials (and the referee) that
our 250MW fusion plant would be the equivalent of a 250MT bomb ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 13:18:28 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 10:29 PM 4/22/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>>ObTrav: A challenge. Write a starter scenario for Traveller,
suitable for
>>use by beginners to role-playing (let alone Traveller).  Something
a high
>>school gaming club could use with a minimum of preparation. Include
all the
>>explanatory material and notes so that new gamers could start right
away,
>>and have a reasonable chance of success in the adventure.  Choose a
theme
>>that teenagers would get into.
>
>Let me think on that one. I might be up to the challenge.

	How about (1) Chamax Plague, (2) Divine Intervention, (3) Night of
Conquest?  Flesh them out a bit more, with maps, handouts, pictures,
etc. ... They really are great adventures, and the ones I choose to
introduce new players to RPGing in general and Traveller in
particular?

	Of course, as we've seen, everybody has their favorites. But
something like this is quick & easy to play, can move fast, and
requires more than just hackenslash.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 14:48:42 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/23/99 7:13:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< 
 But that attitude is *exactly* the sort of thing that leads to these
 problems. Another one is the old "it takes two to make a fight". Lord,
 the number of times I heard that. If I'd known then what I know now,
 I'd told the "responsible adults" saying that "So you'd rather I just
 stood there and let him beat the shit out of me? It's not as if I can
 out run him, you know." >>

	This is the policy at the school where I teach, and I find it 
appalling.   To demand that someone not defend himself when attacked is the 
height of oatmeal-headedness.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 14:52:13 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

At 05:38 PM 4/24/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/24/99 12:38:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:
>
><< .no one is going to ban black pants, nor
> black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.   >>
>
>several school districts in the US (including one high school here in Las 
>Vegas where I live) have done JUST THAT. I think it's absurd....

Well this is obvious.  How do you keep kids from shooting each other?  Ban
trenchcoats!  Clearly it's the wearing of trenchcoats that causes violence! :)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:09:51 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/24/99 3:38:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:

<< 
 Now *really* seriously...no one is going to ban black pants, nor
 black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.  The
 entire ensemble will probably draw a lot of attention in some
 circles for a while, but then again it should.
  >>

	Don't be so sure.  At the school where I teach students wearing black 
trench coats were forced to remove them, and the next day the county 
Superindendent banned all students from wearing coats of any kind inside any 
school building.  Our faculty now has additional "patrol duty" at no 
additional pay, and we can't send students to the restroom or to get a drink, 
without "grave emergency".  The paranoia is on the verge of funny.  ON Friday 
the principal had 10 (all male) teachers summojned to supervise bus loading, 
even though it was pouring down rain and we had to watch about a 20' wide 
exit way.   

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 14:10:02 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Electrostatic Fusion

On 04/25/99 at 04:56 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>That's why I like the Electrostatic confinement design. They think
>they'll be able to get it to turn the fusion energy *directly* into
>electricity with 85-90% efficiency!

I remember seeing a reference, but don't ask me where, that
efficiencies *might* get close to 95%.  It had to do with higher
temperture superconducting materials on the containment walls.  

>Oh yeah, since the required "spherical grid" for breakeven looks like
>it'll have to be able 5 meters across, you can just toss the whole
>idiot in after his hand. :-)

I've been thinking about that too, for Traveller.  The advent of
gravitic control might mean that the central plasma could be made
much more dense and thus the grid's radius much smaller.  So, the
minimum reactor core diameter might drop from, say 700 cm...?  I
suppose this is where a function based on TL might come in handy. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #501
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 25 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 502



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT Ghalalk-class Armored Cruiser
Missiles, missiles, missiles!
Scout Courier Scans?
Re: GT Ghalalk-class Armored Cruiser
Re: MST3K! is no more
Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: MST3K! is no more
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Patches
Re: Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)
Re: Scout Courier Scans?
Original of the term "Lighter"
OT Re: MST3K! is no more
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)
Re: RPG Paranoia
Two questions
Re: Original of the term "Lighter"
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #500
Re: Two questions
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #500
Re: Patches
101 Starhips for GT

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:10:06 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: GT Ghalalk-class Armored Cruiser

>Rules Modifications:
>----------------------------
>* Turrets add area as per normal; bays are internal and do not add to
>surface area.

One could argue that bays have a protruding part, and thus add a bit of
surface area. I've found the overall effect is minor.

>** GT does not give crew sizes for screens.  I assumed 1/100 for meson
>screens, 1/8 for nuclear dampers

Having a screen requires one crewmember on the bridge (Screens Officer).

>*** likewise, no crew size is given for spinal mounts., so I assumed 1/100.
> A TL12 article accelerator would have slightly different stats than the
>TL10 version, but I haven't bothered to calculate them yet.

Likewise, a spinal mount requires a single gunner. (Yup, seems odd to me
too, but that's the ruling from David Pulver.)

Seeing as your changes (except for the bay armour) make your design exceed
GT requirements, this means you have a valid design.  Could I include it in
101 Starships?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 99 14:48:55 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Missiles, missiles, missiles!

On 04/25/99 at 09:48 AM,  Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> said:

>Then, once people started tinkering with designs for TNE, they
>noticed that actually _hitting_ a ship with an HE missile (and making
>it explode) is a lot harder than the original designers thought. So
>someone decided to use detonation lasers for missiles. A great idea
>for ship combat, but unfortunately it invalidated either the
>prohibition on nukes or the carrying of missiles by civilians.

I know it's not a Traveller tech, but has anyone tried to build a
det laser using the non-rechargeable power cell from GRUPS Vehicles?

If I haven't screwed up the math, a 20 kg GTL-11 power cell contains
2,000 MW-secs.  If the cell can flash discharge fast enough and FEL
efficiencies are good enough that should power a reasonable det
laser head shouldn't it?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 16:26:39 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Scout Courier Scans?

Anybody got a scan of the Suleiman-Class scout courier from Traders & Gunboats 
on the Web anywhere?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 17:00:58 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Ghalalk-class Armored Cruiser

- ----------
> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> >Rules Modifications:
> >----------------------------
> >* Turrets add area as per normal; bays are internal and do not add to
> >surface area.
> 
> One could argue that bays have a protruding part, and thus add a bit of
> surface area. I've found the overall effect is minor.

I find the overall affect rather dramatic.  If I used the rules for bay
surface area  in GT, the total area to be armored would rise by more than
40 percent.  That's a big hit penalty.  With the errata ruling that bays
take 50 internal spaces, they are now effectively fixed-mounted weapons as
discussed on GT p.156.  Based on that rule, I'd say they shouldn't add any
surface area at all.  I might accept a small increase, maybe as much as
1500 sf per bay, but even that imposes significant penalties (about 10
percent) to armor mass.
 
> Having a screen requires one crewmember on the bridge (Screens Officer).
> 
[snip] 
> Likewise, a spinal mount requires a single gunner. (Yup, seems odd to me
> too, but that's the ruling from David Pulver.)

I was figuring some sort of maintenance requirements, both for screens and
spinal mounts, to account for the additional crew.  Perhaps I'll sit down
and work out the maintenance man-hours required using the Far Trader rules
and see how many that is.

> Seeing as your changes (except for the bay armour) make your design
exceed
> GT requirements, this means you have a valid design.  Could I include it
in
> 101 Starships?

 By all means.  

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 16:17:07 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: MST3K! is no more

> MST3K! is finishing its final season. It is soon to be no more.
> Just thought I would share a sad note with everyone.

Outstanding!  IMO it consumed valuable airtime that could best be 
used by other shows.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 16:17:07 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)

>  "Veteran of the Psychic Wars"
>  Performed by Blue Oyster Cult
>  Written by Michael Moorcock and BOC

Michael Moorcock the SF writer?  Is my ignorance showing here :) ?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 17:42:05 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

>	Don't be so sure.  At the school where I teach students wearing black 
>trench coats were forced to remove them, and the next day the county 
>Superindendent banned all students from wearing coats of any kind inside any 
>school building.  Our faculty now has additional "patrol duty" at no 
>additional pay, and we can't send students to the restroom or to get a drink, 
>without "grave emergency".

Back when I was in High School, we got a new principal, who used to work in
one of the NYC inner city schools.  His first action as principal was to
issue these blue plastic passes to all teachers, one to a teacher.  The
idea was, you were not allowed to be outside of a classroom without one.
He seemed to be thinking that this would prevent people from
gathering/talking/smoking in the bathrooms.  

Two days after this was introduced, there were two blue passes left in the
school...  One guy I knew had over 40 of them...  So much for that attempt
at mindless disciplinarianism...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 17:40:39 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: MST3K! is no more

In a message dated 4/25/99 5:35:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
felix@felixcafe.com writes:

<< 
 Outstanding!  IMO it consumed valuable airtime that could best be 
 used by other shows.
  >>

	Aggh, you, you .....that's what you are!  It was the best show on 
SciFi, and I'll miss it.

			Dave Nelson    

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 17:10:40 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> This is the policy at the school where I teach, and I find it
>appalling.   To demand that someone not defend himself when attacked is the
>height of oatmeal-headedness.

Our policy too and it reeks, except for the fact that we found a way to get
rid of the fights in general.
Throwing a punch, either in defense or as aggression gets you a ticket.  The
local judges are charging $150 per offense, sometimes they allow community
service instead.  You would be amazed how few kids  really want to fight
when money is on the line.


TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

>
> Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 17:31:32 -0500
From: "Kevin Walsh" <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Patches

I reallly like the idea of a Ships Hat from the Arrival Vengeance
a better version of the old 4518th patch would be a nice idea too.



Kevin Walsh, AKA Shadowcat
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans web pages
"There is a fine line between Sanity and Insanity
I Dance that line"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 16:18:29 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)

>----------
>> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>> Here's another planetoid design. Any comments?
>>
>>
>> Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)
>> Designed by Robert Prior
>>
>> This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller
>>
>> Ship Description
>
>Shouldn't planetoids be losing some available internal volume?  This is
>more of an issue for jump-capable designs like your merchant ship but I
>inadvertently deleted that so I thought I'd mention it here.

Part of the problem is that VE2 has armour as external, and that's the
system that GT is based on.  I designed this using Christopher Thrash's
second draft rules for planetoid hulls.

An easy way arround this would be to calculate the volume required by
armour, and just add that in., Of course, to be fair then we should be
doing that will _all_ jump-capable ships, not just planetoids.

>
>>15 Staterooms
>
>Shouldn't there be at least one single occupancy stateroom?  I'd expect
>the CO to have his own cabin.

Good point.

>> Performance: Accel 0.1 G (0.1 G empty, 0.1 G overloaded),
>
>With no significant acceleration, it's going to be very easy to simply
>bypass this rock.   If it doesn't happen to be lying in the path of the
>attacker, it will never get there.

Yeah. I'm meant to retitle it "orbital defense station", but forgot.

Planetoids, in general, are either heavy and almost immobile, or lighter
and cheaper. Although as the hull rarely accounts for a lot of a ship's
cost, I suspect that the actual advantages to using a planetoid will prove
to be outweighed by the disadvantages.


>I'm not sure how the crew calculations are working here.  10 turret gunners
>makes sense, but there should be only 8 bay crew, plus an unspecified
>number of crew for the spinal mount, certainly more than 2.  I used 15
>spinal mount crew for my Armored Cruiser conversion, which uses the same
>spinal mount.

I'll check for a glitch there. That should have been 8 for the bay crew.

Spinal crew is 1 bridge crewmember for the weapon, according to David
Pulver (and the GT rules). I suggest you start lobbying for an errata on
this...


>> Meson Screen (DR10111)	70.0	317.5	158.1	0.0	0.0
>
>It will make things easier of you use a round number for DR.  DR 10,000 is
>much easier to use than 10,111.

I entered 10000 for DP, and took the DR calculation from the GT book. Maybe
I should work backwards?


>General Comments:
>There's no sickbay, which would seem to be important in a warship, even one
>this small.

Yup. Oops.   But it's one way to get a stateroom to yourself... :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 18:40:40 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Scout Courier Scans?

You want deckplans or an image?

The deckplans are available at:

http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~spe/Plans/Courier.gif

Jessie has COOL images:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/traveller_gallery.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 18:42:29 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Original of the term "Lighter"

Where does the term "Lighter" (Far Trader pg 137) come from?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:56:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: OT Re: MST3K! is no more

At 05:40 PM 4/25/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/25/99 5:35:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>felix@felixcafe.com writes:
>
><< 
> Outstanding!  IMO it consumed valuable airtime that could best be 
> used by other shows.
>  >>
>
>	Aggh, you, you .....that's what you are!  It was the best show on 
>SciFi, and I'll miss it.

You have to admit that it really fell apart in the last two seasons.. they
really lost their edge.

What I want is for SciFi to show all the MST3K Gamera episodes back to back.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:57:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

At 01:02 PM 4/25/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/25/99 8:00:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>dberry@hooked.net writes:
>
><< Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a
.32
> ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks. >>
>
>In SF? You like to live dangerously...:-)

In Alabama, back in the 80s when I was in the Army.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 16:02:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)

At 04:17 PM 4/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>  "Veteran of the Psychic Wars"
>>  Performed by Blue Oyster Cult
>>  Written by Michael Moorcock and BOC
>
>Michael Moorcock the SF writer?  Is my ignorance showing here :) ?

The very same.  MM is a big fan of BOC, and has penned several sets of
lyrics for them.

He is also an isufferable megelomanic, and many UK fans have amazing tales
of dealing with the Ego That Walks Like A Man.  When the novel _Bimbos of
the Death Sun_ came out, it was a common joke that the murdered SF writer
was instantly identified as Harlan Ellison in the US, and as Michael
Moorcock in the UK.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 18:16:25 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 01:02 PM 4/25/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 4/25/99 8:00:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >dberry@hooked.net writes:
> >
> ><< Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a .32
> > ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks. >>
> >
> >In SF? You like to live dangerously...:-)
> 
> In Alabama, back in the 80s when I was in the Army.

Hardly a fair test.  After all, as an 11B1V, you _obviously_ have enough
"wedding tackle" to conceal a small pistol such as a .32 ACP....  >;-)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:05:52 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Two questions

Hi everyone.

I've been writing a spreadsheet to convert Traveller worlds to GT format,
and noticed the 'Climate' stat in GT.  Is it a thing from Gurps: Space? 
How is it generated?  Is there a plausible way to fake it from Traveller
stats?

Also:  How old was Arbellatra during the Second Frontier War?  I seem to
recall one source saying she was quite young.  If so, what does this mean
about the Imperial Navy?

Thanks,
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 19:30:40 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Original of the term "Lighter"

- ----------
> From: Paul Schirf <pc@PerkWorks.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Original of the term "Lighter"
> Date: Sunday, 25 April, 1999 6:42 PM
> 
> Where does the term "Lighter" (Far Trader pg 137) come from?

The term "lighter" is an old one; it dates as far back as the age of sail
and refers to a small vessel used to move cargo over short distances,
usually within a harbor, but sometimes along coastal trade routes. 

The "Lighter Aboard Ship" concept is taken directly from contemporary
merchant shipping.  A LASH cargo vessel carries its cargo in self-propelled
barges stacked in a large cargo space.  On developed routes, they've been
largely displaced by container ships, but LASH vessels are still used on
some routes that visit less developed ports where container loading
equipment isn't available.  I'd expect a very similar pattern in Traveller,
so LASH ships could be quite common in Frontier areas like the Marches, but
rare in the interior of the Imperium.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 19:46:08 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #500

what makes up the Imperial tax base?  Unfortunately I am separated from my
Traveller books, so I can't look up this burning question.
Does the imperium:

1) tax starport usage
2) levy personal or corporate income tax (like federal=imperial and
state=world?)
3) take a cut of each member world's Gross World Product?(corruption here we
come!)
4) take a tariff on all goods coming through imperial facilities?
5)all of the above?

high guard and trillion credit squadron touched on this, but I think they
did it according to each world's economic prosperity, a pocket empire being
the sum of the production of its members.  Canon describes the Imperium as
being much more lassiez faire.  I welcome any comments.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 16:47:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Two questions

At 09:05 AM 4/26/99 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:

>I've been writing a spreadsheet to convert Traveller worlds to GT format,
>and noticed the 'Climate' stat in GT.  Is it a thing from Gurps: Space? 
>How is it generated?  Is there a plausible way to fake it from Traveller
>stats?

It's a handwave for average temperature.  In GURPS Space, the book suggests
choosing an appropriate temperature range.

The Climates given are:

Climate   Average Temp (F)

Very Hot     120
Hot          110
Tropical     100
Warm          90
Normal        80
Cool          60
Chilly        40
Cold          20
Very Cold      0
Frozen       -20

The temps are for the 30th parallel.

>Also:  How old was Arbellatra during the Second Frontier War?  I seem to
>recall one source saying she was quite young.  If so, what does this mean
>about the Imperial Navy?

According to the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, Arbellatra was born in 587.  The
Second Frontier War lasted from 615 to 620, so she was 28-33 during the
war.  This *is* young for a Sector Admiral, but she was a genius.  It's
also noted that Cleon V (565 [615] 618) was the one who gave Arbellatra the
command.

hmmm..  Why does Cleon V take time from fighting the Civil War to appoint
what was probably a Lt. Commander at best to the highest ranking position
in the Marches?  Was Arbellatra given the job in return for a promise to
bring the Spinward Armada to Core to reinforce Cleon?  If so, was
Arbellatra's actions when she arrived premeditated, or did she act on impulse?

Let's take a look.. The 2FW breaks out in 615.  Assuming that the warning
signs were there to begin with, news reaches Capital within 18 months.
Cleon, needing some sort of hedge to his rule, provides an ambitious
(family member? ally?) with complete carte' blanche (possibly through use
of an Imperial Warrant) with the requirement that once the war is won, the
fleet must be brought to Core.  Arbellatra complies, but somewhere along
the trip in she runs across the news that Cleon (and several successors) is
dead.  
Having the chance to view the situation from outside, she decides to end
the Civil War by setting herself up as Regent, and starting a search for a
legitimate heir.  Or does she?  A woman who will jump to the top of the
chain of command like Arbellatra did might easily use the cover of a search
to eliminate heirs, and take the throne for herself.

It is interesting to note that one Arbellatra's earliest acts as Regent was
to form the X-boat network.

and of course, the Templars were involved somehow.


- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 16:50:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #500

At 07:46 PM 4/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>what makes up the Imperial tax base?  Unfortunately I am separated from my
>Traveller books, so I can't look up this burning question.
>Does the imperium:
>
>1) tax starport usage
>2) levy personal or corporate income tax (like federal=imperial and
>state=world?)
>3) take a cut of each member world's Gross World Product?(corruption here we
>come!)
>4) take a tariff on all goods coming through imperial facilities?
>5)all of the above?

A mixture of 3 and 4, with 3 being the biggest cut.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:19:19 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Patches

- -----Original Message-----
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 24 April 1999 2:32
Subject: Patches


>SJ Games is looking into makeing some patches...the embroidered kind, not
>the rubber kind you stick on bicycle tires. Marc thinks Traveller patches
>are a good idea, and has given his OK, and we'd like to know what sort of
>subject matter the Traveller audience is interested in.
>
>We have artwork for Scout service patches in-house, so they have a leg up
>in getting done, but other possibilities include FT Beowulf crew patches,
>Marine, Navy, &  Army units, mercenary outfits and just general "I'm a
>Traveller fan" type stuff. (The first patch will probably be something
>along the linse of the "Eye in Pyramid" logo but if we decide to do
>patches, Traveller is an obvious and early candidate for heavy
>representation).
>
>How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?
>What would you be willing to pay?
>What types of patches would you like to see us do?
>
>We can't do dozens of designs at once, so we need to limit ourselves to the
>more popular ones, and we will need to charge enough so we don't lose money
>selling them.
>
>
>In another matter, the Traveller T-shirts are in the warehouse, and I got
>mine Tuesday. They look great!
>
>
>
>Loren Wiseman

I'd love to see some Imperial Sunbursts along with those mentioned above!
But if it comes about, pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaase make distributors outside the US
aware of their existence... I'd proudly wear a sunburst on one shoulder, and
a unit.scout badge on the other (or on the chest) of my jacket.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 17:16:43 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: 101 Starhips for GT

does anyone know where I can get this I didn't see it listed on the SJG page? I know they are distributing BITS products?

TIA
Mike

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #502
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 503



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A-10 versus MBT?...
OT: Software Question
TNE-RCES list???
Re: Origin of the term "Lighter"
Re: 101 Starhips for GT
Re: 101 Starhips for GT
GTL9 Modules: a request
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498...
Re: Original of the term "Lighter"
Re: RPG Paranoia...
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #500
Re: OT: Software Question
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: GTL9 Modules: a request (long)
Re: Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)
Re: GTL9 Modules: a request
Re: GTL9 Modules: a request
Re: Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)
Re: Imperial Taxes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:33:16 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 24 April 1999 5:05
Subject: A-10 versus MBT?


<< Snip >>

>Does the A-10 use it's 30mm gun on MBTs successfully? How?
>Hitting thinner deck armor? Blowing off reactive armor and
>then punching through a lighter layer underneath? Damaging
>external features and breaking treads to the point where
>the target is mission-killed, without ever penetrating?
>Simply throwing enough projectiles at the target to give a
>fair chance of a Golden BB/critical hit?
>
>Or does the A-10 have to use missile ordnance on MBTs?
>
>I can envision the 30mm shredding the armor of APCs, light
>tanks, and other sub-MBT targets pretty easily, but I'm
>just having trouble reconciling things, here.
>

All of the above to some degree Russell.  Plus they fire a DP round that has
some very heavy punch to it.  If you have ever seen footage of one of these
beasts in action (training vids, Discovery Channel, etc.), there is a 30-50
metre kill zone around the target also, so don't allow PC's to stand to
close to a target if attacked by something like this and expect to walk away
unscathed!  I'd also assume that a VRF Gauss Gun might have a similar
effect?  This is my own observation -- any other Travellers care to set me
straight on that for my own records?

- --  The Roc
     (Who may very well be starting a CT campaign again in the next 6-months
or so :^)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 20:21:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: OT: Software Question

Anybody know of a software program that will convert a PostScript file to a 
GIF that works under Linux?

XV will do this, but will only display the file adjusted for the height of the 
desktop it's on.  I need something that will make a PS file *readable*.

Thanxx in advance...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 20:22:51 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: TNE-RCES list???

Anybody know what's going on with the TNE-RCES list?  I sent a msg there and 
it came back.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 18:47:26 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Origin of the term "Lighter"

>Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 19:30:40 -0400
>From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Original of the term "Lighter"
>
>The term "lighter" is an old one; it dates as far back as the age of sail
>and refers to a small vessel used to move cargo over short distances,
>usually within a harbor, but sometimes along coastal trade routes. 

Thomas is entirely correct about the historical origins of the term. The
other answer is The Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide, p. 129:

"Lighter: Nonstarship greater than 100 tons displacement, with performance
3G or lower, designed to land cargo from orbit onto planetary surface."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:04:00 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 101 Starhips for GT

- ----------
> From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: 101 Starhips for GT
> Date: Sunday, 25 April, 1999 8:16 PM
> 
> 
> does anyone know where I can get this I didn't see it listed on the SJG
page? I know they are distributing BITS products?

101 Starships is a free product.  It's available in the Archive section of
the BITS web page (http://www.bits.org.uk/). 

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:11:46 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: 101 Starhips for GT

>does anyone know where I can get this I didn't see it listed on the SJG
>page? I know they are distributing BITS products?
>
>TIA
>Mike

You can download it from BITS or Freelance Traveller.

www.bits.org.uk (it's in the archives)

come.to/FreelanceTraveller (not certain where it is, but browse around and
look at the cool stuff :-)


I've sent in a copy to SJG, along with Mac starship design software, but
nothing seems to have happened wrt updating the game aids page. I guess
Reese is busy with business.  Although at least a link would be nice...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:22:22 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: GTL9 Modules: a request

I've getting closer to finishing my compilation of GTL9 and GTL11 modules.
Once I finish, I'm going to release version three of 101 Starships, with
over 30 new ships (plus whatever GTL9 and GTL11 ships I design) and the
modules as an appendix.

However, this is a busy week (report cards out, parents' night, two field
trips, and three cricket practices).

It would greatly help if someone could design the following modules:

- - Basic Bridge, Command Bridge, and Cockpit/Systems modules for GTL9 and GTL11.

- - GTL9 and GTL11 versions of the weapons in GT.

- - GTL9 Stateroom (I can't retrodesign the GTL10 version, so I'm obviously
missing something)

- - GTL9 and GTL turrets and bays (I can't figure out how they were designed,
but then I haven't had a lot of time to fiddle with them)


Please include all the design data when submitting them, so we can
double-check your numbers. (This will also help with the fission power
variant I'm tinkering with.)


BTW, GTL9 military ships work a lot better with fusion rockets and fission
power plants.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 18:05:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a .32
> ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.

Uh... why?

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:20:52 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, 25 April 1999 7:07
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498



>
>Heck, you can go back even earlier. Jazz got a bad rap in its heyday.
>

Jazz... and Rock and Roll!  What about swimming without neck to knee
covering!?!?!  Worse still for the women!!  We were all doomed to the hot
place of torture weren't we?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:16:34 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Original of the term "Lighter"

>Where does the term "Lighter" (Far Trader pg 137) come from?

A Lighter was a small boat used during the age of sail to transfer cargo,
especially to a beach or other area too shallow for an deep draft ocean
vessel to navigate. Lighters were used extensively in the New World along
the east coast in Colonial times.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:39:53 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, 25 April 1999 7:25
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia



>
>I know that it's amazingly off-topic, but I have a question about this and
>I've never gotten the opportunity to ask someone who was in your camp. What
>is supposed to be accomplished by a dress code, exactly? I ask this mainly
>because *all* of the schools I went to had a strict dress code which seemed
>to accomplish absolutely nothing. Is there something I was missing about
the
>concept?
>

The concept is "equallity" to a certain degree, everyone wearing the same
uniform at school doesn't single out those trendoids/well-to-do's with
Calvin Cline (spelling?) Jeans, Gucci, whatever, against those with <insert
cheap generic brand here>.  Although, unless this also includes footwear,
mobile phones, jewelry, etc., then the effect/reasoning is lost.  Basically,
everyone dressed the same do ing the same work suffer no class (as in
wealth) distinctions... in theory.

>
>As far as restrictions on hair length and style... well, I'm biased on that
>one as I fought hard for three years against them at my high school.
>

I believe that goes with uniformity as well as out moded health issues
(those with longer hair were morw suseptible to head lice, it was harder to
maintain [and don't argue with that one... after going from 'long-haired
lout' to the army, I found short hair amazingly easy to maintain!  Then many
years later, I have reverted to long hair again, I have noticed the
difference of easy short to difficult long -- but it's a personal choice],
and many kids often "looked" shaggy/unkept).

>>School is the student's *job* and they
>>should be conducting themselves like they will be expected to once
>>they get into working world where promptness, politeness, and work
>>(both individual and team) is the expected norm.
>
>
>I've got some serious problems with this, but they're all *way* off topic
>and inflammatory. ;^)
>

In Victorian times, kids did what they liked if they weren't forced to help
mom and dad in the shop, on the farm, etc.  They ran roughshot over the
cities testing limits, they were regularly beaten (because they were so
suseptible to the influences of the devil, and the beatings drove the devil
from them).  They became a problem and one of the things noticed about the
industrial age, was that with adults working (often in uniforms), the day
was regimented, things had timelines or even deadlines.  It was decided
therefore to put kids into school and equate it with the current work
ethic... it was in fact "kids work" with uniforms and regimented days and
deadlines and so forth.

Hmmmm... I never thought that sitting through that boring 3-hour video about
children's rights and civil rights with my wife (part of her childcare
studies) would be of use to me at all... Well, we  live and learn don't we?
:^)

- --  The Roc
     (Who *was* a long-haired dropout in his teens)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:28:45 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 05:10 PM 4/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> This is the policy at the school where I teach, and I find it
>>appalling.   To demand that someone not defend himself when attacked is the
>>height of oatmeal-headedness.
>
>Our policy too and it reeks, except for the fact that we found a way to get
>rid of the fights in general.
>Throwing a punch, either in defense or as aggression gets you a ticket.  The
>local judges are charging $150 per offense, sometimes they allow community
>service instead.  You would be amazed how few kids  really want to fight
>when money is on the line.

Great.... So only rich kids can afford to fight....  And their victims
can't afford to defend themselves... 

Has anyone in your area seriously challenged one of these tickets in court?
 (At the appellate level that is..)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:43:11 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #500

At 07:46 PM 4/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>what makes up the Imperial tax base?  Unfortunately I am separated from my
>Traveller books, so I can't look up this burning question.
>Does the imperium:
>
>1) tax starport usage
>2) levy personal or corporate income tax (like federal=imperial and
>state=world?)
>3) take a cut of each member world's Gross World Product?(corruption here we
>come!)
>4) take a tariff on all goods coming through imperial facilities?
>5)all of the above?

Well, all LICs (License Imperial Corporations) have to give 5% of their
stock to the emperor... That's a _lot_ of money...  There is probably more
though...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:50:57 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Software Question

At 08:21 PM 4/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Anybody know of a software program that will convert a PostScript file to a 
>GIF that works under Linux?

Ghostscript (the de fact standard Linux PS program) can output to a tiff
file.  Those are easily converted to gif by any number of programs.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 20:50:31 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

See, there you have it. There are no rich kids where I teach.
They tend to be from a low to  very low economic setting.
As for challenging the tickets, no.
They are paid or community service served.  Unless of course the judge has
pity, in which I only know of one of those.
TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:30:41 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: GTL9 Modules: a request (long)

At 09:22 PM 4/25/99 +0100, you wrote:
>- GTL9 and GTL11 versions of the weapons in GT.
<snip>

>Please include all the design data when submitting them, so we can
>double-check your numbers. (This will also help with the fission power
>variant I'm tinkering with.)

Here's the design data for the weapons from my GTL9 Beam weapons list (see
my web site):
I can also provide this in Excel '97 format if anyone wants.  

If anyone finds errors, please let me know.  I'm still testing the
spreadsheet I designed this with...

I'll hopefully have some GTL11 beams up soon...

Turret Laser (GTL9)

Name Energy Spaces (dt) Mass (ston)  MCr 
Weapon (MJ) 125. 0.208 2.602 2.16  
Battery (kWs) 250000  0.001 0.009 0.00  
Fusion Slice (kW) 4166.66667 0.167 2.083 0.83  
Long Term Access  0.500 0.000 0.00  
Mount  0.104 1.301 0.01  
Stabilization  0.021 0.260 0.05  
Total   1.000 6.255 3.05  

Laser Bay  (GTL9)
Name Energy Spaces (dt) Mass (ston) Cost (Mcr)  
Weapon (MJ) 6,227. 10.368 129.599 103.76  
Battery (kWs) 12454000 0.037 0.461 0.09  
Fusion Slice (kW) 207566.667 8.303 103.783 41.51  
Long Term Access  24.908 0.000 0.00  
Mount  5.184 64.800 0.26  
Stabilization  1.037 12.960 2.59  
Two roomy workstations  0.160 0.040 0.00  
Terminal  0.001 0.005 0.00  
HUDWAC  0.000 0.000 0.00  
Total   49.997 311.648 148.22  

Particle Beam Bay (GTL9)

Name Energy Spaces (dt) Mass (ston) Cost (Mcr)  
Weapon (MJ) 7,470. 6.219 77.735 31.13  
Battery (kWs) 14940000 0.044 0.553 0.11  
Fusion Slice (kW) 249000 9.960 124.500 49.80  
Long Term Access  29.880 0.000 0.00  
Mount  3.109 38.867 0.16  
Stabilization  0.622 7.773 1.55  
Two roomy workstations  0.160 0.040 0.00  
Terminal  0.001 0.005 0.00  
HUDWAC  0.000 0.000 0.00  
Total   49.995 249.473 82.76  

Spinal P-Beam (GTL9)

Name Energy Spaces (dt) Mass (ston) Cost (Mcr)  
Weapon (MJ) 241,886. 201.370 2,517.126 1006.89  
Battery (kWs) 483772000 1.432 17.900 3.58  
Fusion Slice (kW) 8062866.67 322.515 4,031.433 1612.57  
Long Term Access  967.544 0.000 0.00  
Stabilization  20.137 251.713 50.34  
Total   1,512.998 6,818.172 2673.39  



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:54:47 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)

- ----------
> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>
> An easy way arround this would be to calculate the volume required by
> armour, and just add that in., Of course, to be fair then we should be
> doing that will _all_ jump-capable ships, not just planetoids.
> 
Well, the GT to V2e design rules (GT p.157) imply that jump drives have a
fair amount of surplus capacity, so it may not be a big issue.  OTOH, the
volume of a planetoid's armor will take up a lot more space than the bonded
superdense in a conventional design.  Perhaps it would be worth calculating
in this case.

> 
> Planetoids, in general, are either heavy and almost immobile, or lighter
> and cheaper. Although as the hull rarely accounts for a lot of a ship's
> cost, I suspect that the actual advantages to using a planetoid will
prove
> to be outweighed by the disadvantages.

That's my suspicion too.  Planetoids should be used only for special
applications, and should always be unique.  After all, how often can one
find enough similar rocks to create a significant class of vessels?  Even
two similar rocks will have different internal structures, favoring at
least semi-custom design.
 
> 
> Spinal crew is 1 bridge crewmember for the weapon, according to David
> Pulver (and the GT rules). I suggest you start lobbying for an errata on
> this...

I think I will, as soon as I have some more refined figures.  Here's my
thinking so far.

Based on the maintenance requirement in Far Trader, I calculate that a MCr
1035 spinal PAW should require 4.8*1035/SQRT(1035) maintenance man-hours
per day assuming it's in like-new condition (a fair assumption for the IN,
I think).  That works out to 154 man-hours.  Assuming 12 working hours per
day (a high figure, but consistent with typical naval schedules), you need
13 personnel. (Operators can double as maintenance personnel, so there's no
need to add them.)  

The equivalent figure for the MCr. 939 spinal meson gun is 147 man-hours,
which also rounds to 13 crew.

The energy bay weapons have maintenance requirements of around 22-23 hours
each, which fits nicely within the 2-man crew.  Missile bays are vastly
overcrewed (they need only 4 hours a day), but they need operators for
other reasons, and the missiles themselves may require some routine
maintenance.  

Turrets require at most 8 hours per day (three TL10 lasers), so the
requirement of one crew per turret makes sense, even of you group them in
batteries with fewer operators.  Again, missile and sand turrets are
overcrewed, but this acceptable in the grand scheme of things. 

I'm less sure how to work out crew size for screens.  GT has somehow
linearized the crew requirements for modules that should have a square-root
term, but I don't follow how it was done. I saw your discussion with Chris
Thrash on Pyramid, but I didn't understand it very well. Perhaps, one or
both of you would care to enlighten me.  

Thanks.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:30:58 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: GTL9 Modules: a request

At 09:22 PM 4/25/99 +0100, you wrote:
>- GTL9 and GTL11 versions of the weapons in GT.

I've just posted some GTL11 beam weapons to my web site.  Their design info
is included.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:39:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: GTL9 Modules: a request

At 09:22 PM 4/25/99 +0100, you wrote:
>BTW, GTL9 military ships work a lot better with fusion rockets and fission
>power plants.

Did you take the weight/volume of the water for the Fusion Rocket into
account?  As far as I can tell, the reaction mass for a VE2 fusion rocket
at GTL9 is _huge_, many times greater than the mass of the ship.  The
rocket requires .02 Gallons of water per hour per pound  of thrust, which
works out to .17lbs of water per hour per lb of thrust.  

If you have enough reaction mass for 40-60 hours at 1G (that figure is from
FF&S2) that works out to 6.8-10.2 lbs of reaction mass per pound of ship!
so your ship will have to be nearly 90% reaction mass....  And that's for a
freighter.  FF&S2 says that a military ship should have more....

What's really needed is a drive that uses very little reaction mass that is
accelerated very fast (like the HePlar)... Unfortunately, there isn't one
in VE2 that is capable of 1G+ acceleration (Optimized Fusion uses much less
mass, but weighs 3000lbs per lb of thrust, limiting you to at most .0003G...)

Or I may have done my math incorrectly... :)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 00:04:59 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)

>I'm less sure how to work out crew size for screens.  GT has somehow
>linearized the crew requirements for modules that should have a square-root
>term, but I don't follow how it was done. I saw your discussion with Chris
>Thrash on Pyramid, but I didn't understand it very well. Perhaps, one or
>both of you would care to enlighten me.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Tom Schoene

Chris, this one's all your's. Seeing as I defered to your judgement...

(Although, parenthetically, I'll note that with the current method of
having a fusion slice, and just adding modules, there's no way to do that
_but_ linearly. I suspect that an average value was picked that stayed
fairly close to Traveller canon, but it would have been nice to have the
guidelines listed in teh book for those of us designing stuff in more
detail.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 07:25:41 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Taxes

Chris Peers writes:

>Does the imperium:
> 
>1) tax starport usage
>2) levy personal or corporate income tax (like federal=imperial and
>   state=world?)
>3) take a cut of each member world's Gross World Product?(corruption here we
>   come!)
>4) take a tariff on all goods coming through Imperial facilities?
>5) all of the above?

According to _Striker_, Imperial worlds have individually set defense budgets
averaging 3% of GWP in peacetime. The Imperium gets 30% of the defense budget,
which is split evenly between the subsector forces and the regular forces.

The Imperium may also tax interstellar trade, but AFAIK there are no
canonical figures fro that. However, the Imperial family owns a healthy
of the megacorporations and many corporations and thus gets a huge yearly
sum in dividends. While some of that undoubtedly goes into the personal
accounts of Imperial family members, it has always been my theory that
the emperor paid the Imperial bureaucracy out of this 


IMTU the Imperium gets a straight 1% of GWP (Also, the cost of getting an
interstellar charter is to give the emperor a 2% share in the company for
free). This is quite close to the canonical figure and avoids the strange
situation that the world that elects to spend less on its own defense (and
thus relies more heavily on Imperial protection) pays less than the world
that spends a lot. (Also, the subsector duke, sector duke, archduke or
emperor can declare a state of emergency; while it lasts, the Imperium can
demand 5% of GWP.)

>high guard and trillion credit squadron touched on this, but I think they
>did it according to each world's economic prosperity, a pocket empire being
>the sum of the production of its members.  Canon describes the Imperium as
>being much more lassiez faire.  I welcome any comments.

You can reconcile _TCS_, _Striker_, and _Pocket Empires_ by making the
following assumptions:

1) The average TCS type pocket empire has an average peacetime budget of 10%
   of GWP, modified by government type.

2) A pocket empire world splits its budget evenly between its army and its
   navy.

3) Worlds belonging to large interstellar states like the imperium spends a
   lot less on their peacetime budgets (like the 3% mentioned above).

You'll have to use cr10,000 per citizen for GWP rather than the figures from
_Striker_ and then use the method in _PE_ to find the relative value of their
credits.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #503
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 504



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Abellatra
More about Imperial taxes
Re: Sword Worlders or Darrians for Traveller PBeM
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Pre-MAGHIZ Darrian population
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)
Re: Original of the term "Lighter"
GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
Government Type 6
Re: A-10 versus MBT?...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #497
Patches
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
TNE-RCES
T4 Product Evaluation request
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Imperial Taxation
Re: T4 Product Evaluation request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 07:39:27 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Abellatra

Douglas E. Berry writes:

>>Also:  How old was Arbellatra during the Second Frontier War?  I seem to
>>recall one source saying she was quite young.  If so, what does this mean
>>about the Imperial Navy?
> 
>According to the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, Arbellatra was born in 587.  The
>Second Frontier War lasted from 615 to 620, so she was 28-33 during the
>war.  This *is* young for a Sector Admiral, but she was a genius.  It's
>also noted that Cleon V (565 [615] 618) was the one who gave Arbellatra the
>command.
> 
>hmmm..  Why does Cleon V take time from fighting the Civil War to appoint
>what was probably a Lt. Commander at best to the highest ranking position
>in the Marches?

Obviously he wouldn't. That would IMO be a little too much of a promotion.
But who's to say that Arbellatra had followed the same career track that
the average Imperial officer does? I've always assumed that Arbellatra was
from a high noble family, daughter of an Imperial duke at the least, maybe
even an archduke. So she had fast-tracked through the service. Propably she
was a commodore serving under Cleon and got promoted to Admiral on his way
to the throne. She was propably one of his most trusted followers.

>Was Arbellatra given the job in return for a promise to bring the Spinward
>Armada to Core to reinforce Cleon?

That's certainly possible, but I don't see why that would be necessary. Just
preventing someone disloyal to him from getting control of a big armada
would be worthwhile.

>Having the chance to view the situation from outside, she decides to end
>the Civil War by setting herself up as Regent, and starting a search for a
>legitimate heir.  Or does she?  A woman who will jump to the top of the
>chain of command like Arbellatra did might easily use the cover of a search
>to eliminate heirs, and take the throne for herself.

I'd say that several interpretations of her personality and motives are
equally plausible and is best left to the writer of Milieu:600.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Even sub-lieutenants are God's creatures,
         though it is hard to believe it sometimes."
                        Commander Ted Walker
                   "Secret Water" by Arthur Ransome

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 07:56:44 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: More about Imperial taxes

Juliean Galak writes:

>Well, all LICs (License Imperial Corporations) have to give 5% of their
>stock to the emperor... That's a _lot_ of money...  There is probably more
>though...

That's something I've suggested before, but it's not canon. It's just that
with one exception all the Imperial companies for which we have stock
ownership information (which is the 13 megacorporations and three or four
lesser companies) have a minimum of 2% (not 5) owned by 'Imperial Family'.
For some of them it is much more than 2%, but that would, of course,
represent genuine investments on the part of various Imperial family
members. 

The problem is that pesky exception (I can never remember which one it is,
but its one of the megacorporations). Either one would have to claim that
the information is in error and that the Emperor does own 2% of the company,
or there is some fascinating story why some emperor sold the "Emperor's
Share" (which would be something clear against policy) in that particular
company.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:04:45 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Sword Worlders or Darrians for Traveller PBeM

Ian Whitchurch writes:

>I *like* the end of the Long Night. None of those mega-sized Imperial
>fleets, for a start.

If you have high-population worlds, you have fleets equal to or greater
than the Imperial ones described in _Rebellion_.

Especially if you let them use realistic military budgets...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:17:58 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Richard Hough  writes:

>>Very true. Unfortunately none of the people in the debate, whichever side
>>of the argument they favor, are able to come up with a reason why it
>>shouldn't be possible to design drop tanks to be reusable. So we generally
>>interpret the comment that drop tanks are one use to mean that since the
>>ship can't carry them along with them, they are one use _for the ship_,
>>but can be reused back in the original system.
> 
>Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still connected, and pumping
>LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang outside the jump
>field? In this case the explosive bolts are only used when the ship
>actually jumps,and the tanks are discarded into jump space.

If that was so, the _Trimkhana-Brilliance_ would have been in jump space
when the drop tank failed to detatch. Also, the description clearly states
that jump takes place AFTER the tanks are at a safe distance from the
jumping ship.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:31:35 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

Matthew Bond writes:

>The main reasons for aircraft drop tanks being single use are:
>1) Early (WWII) ones were made of aluminised cardboard or plywood;
>2) They don't tend to stay in one piece after falling c.20,000 ft and
>bouncing <g>
>3) they're often dropped over the sea or enemy territory, making
>recovery...errr...*interesting* <g>

None of which applies to Traveller drop tanks (Well, #1 might, since
CT drop tanks are even cheaper than CT fuel tankage. However, there's
no apparent reason why you shouldn't be able to build a drop tanks that
was just as solid as an ordinary starship, and it would still be
cheaper. Indeed, even with GT fuel tank prices (which are way higher
than CT) drop tank service is still cheaper than regular service. 
 
>>as an example of DT's that need overhauling think of the Shuttle
>>Boosters (I know these are solid fuel rockets, but they are
>>essentially akin to a drop tank with an integral engine....sort of...
>><g>)

A drop tank is a container for liquid fuel with a system for detatching
it from the ship and getting it and the ship separated very quickly.
There's a limit to just how destructive said system can be, since it
wouldn't do to damage the ship, now would it?

>>as to Trav DT's, they would need checking for cracks after each drop,
>>replacement of explosive bolts, checking fuel outflow pipe seals
>>(failed O-rings are nasty :( ...  ) etc.

That is the way I hope to go, but as I said, there's a limit to just how
much damage those explosive bolts can do, even with shaped charges. Come
to that, I find it hard to believe that explosive bolts are needed to
separate two objects in space. There must be other possibilities.

That said, even if a check of the tanks don't cost anything at all in
itself, just having to tow the tanks from the jump limit to a workshop
will make it more expensive because it limits the number of times per
year a drop tank can be reused.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:44:06 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Pre-MAGHIZ Darrian population

Jim McLean writes:
>>Rob Eaglestone writes:
>>
>>>Hans SWAGged a population of 600 million.  Is that all, Hans?
>>>That's a really impressive TL for so few people!  That is simply
>>>amazing!
>>
>>Darrian has always been the atypical example. The thing is, we do know
>>how big a _percentage_ of Darrian's population that survived the MAGHIZ
>>(20%). And we know how big the population is in 1100 (between 15 and 24
>>billion. So I wanted them to have a small a population as possible, in
>>order to give them some room for population expansion in the 2000 years
>>between the two dates.
> 
>	Since such a small proportion of the population survived the Maghiz, 
>we could make the pre-Maghiz population virtually anything we wanted.

Not quite, since we do have the information that it was reduced by 80%
rather than 99 or 99.9.

>I'm not overly concerned with population growth in the intervening 2000
>years  because there's no need for it to have been particularly large.  

I didn't say there was a need, I said I wanted one. For one thing, I wanted
to balance the Darrian population with that of the Sword Worlds so that the
Sword Worlds caught up with the Darrians in strength not long before their
first land grab. That has ramifications for the size and growth of Sword
World populations over the years.

Its all interconnected and mostly based on a bunch of assumptions, which is
why I was interested to know if Rob had an actual canonical figure for the
pre-Maghiz population.

>	In any case, the Darrians could actually have had a bigger population 
>pre-Maghiz than circa-1100.  After all, they had more colony worlds then, 
>didn't they?
 
They had worlds on which they had outposts or colonies. My view is that the
off-world Darrian population was very limited (which is why the _Maghiz_
could not only destroy the infrastructure of all the worlds but also cause
them to actually lose much of their TL-16 knowledge  --  something I find
it difficult to accept would happen if any of the other worlds had had a
sizable population).

I doubt the Maghiz actually killed very many people on other worlds.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:09:00 -0900
From: "Peter Newman" <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

>>The concern is not the  symbolism, but the ability to conceal items in the
>>long coat. Same reason  why baggy jackets/coats are already banned here.
>
>Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a .32
>ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.

Was this a set up for the classic "Is that a gun in your trunks or are
you
 just glad to see me?" line.

Somehow I suspect that nude schooling would be somewhat distracting to 
most adolescents.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:31:14 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)

>>  "Veteran of the Psychic Wars"
>>  Performed by Blue Oyster Cult
>>  Written by Michael Moorcock and BOC
>
>Michael Moorcock the SF writer?  Is my ignorance showing here :) ?

Remember, he's been heavily invvolved in music especially with Hawkwind.

Which reminds me, play Hawkwind's "Sonic Attack" at your players when
they're not expecting it.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:55:55 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Original of the term "Lighter"

>> Where does the term "Lighter" (Far Trader pg 137) come from?
>
>The term "lighter" is an old one; it dates as far back as the age of sail
>and refers to a small vessel used to move cargo over short distances,
>usually within a harbor, but sometimes along coastal trade routes.

True, but he asked where it came from, not what it was. :-)

There are several possible origins I've read.

One is that the original use of a lighter was to allow a ship to get over
sand bars and similar obstructions that it couldn't with a full load on,
hence the term "lighter", as it makes the main ship  lighter.

The second is that the small craft was originally used to take soundings for
the same reason, and the name comes from saying "send out the lighter ship
first" which of course got contracted to "send out the lighter

The third is that it originally was "alighter" as in the word "alight"
meaning to "dismount"..

Another is that the small boat was also used for lighting the way of the
main ship when travelling up rivers and into ports at night.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 05:02:02 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements

>Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:54:47 -0400
>From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Rockwell-class SD Monitor (GTL12)
>
>Based on the maintenance requirement in Far Trader, I calculate that a MCr
>1035 spinal PAW should require 4.8*1035/SQRT(1035) maintenance man-hours
>per day ...
>GT has somehow
>linearized the crew requirements for modules that should have a square-root
>term, but I don't follow how it was done. I saw your discussion with Chris
>Thrash on Pyramid, but I didn't understand it very well. Perhaps, one or
>both of you would care to enlighten me.

I've been trying to figure this out myself. The maintenance rules in FT
were a start, but I frankly didn't look at what was required on a
per-module basis until just recently. 

Working backwards from the crew requirements per module for maneuver drives
and jump drives, it appears that GT neglects to take the square root that
appears in VE2  (p. 75). This results in an Engineer (Mechanic, in GT
terms) requirement that is linear with power for a given TL -- necessary in
a modular design system like GT's -- and is an implied official rules
variant for the Traveller setting.

Maintenance man-hours are based on the total purchase price of the ship. If
you try to figure out the requirement component-by-component, you will get
a faulty answer (as I'm sure you realize) because the results are not
linear. Moreover, VE2 (p. 75 again) doesn't directly require maintenance
personnel in the crew for anything other than propulsion and lift systems. 

I agree that one crewman (a Gunner) per spinal weapon isn't a very faithful
rendering of HG and others. Earlier I tried the same method you did, Tom,
with the same results. Requiring other large, power-using systems (like bay
and spinal weaponry) to have maintenance crews on the same basis as drives
might be a more reasonable extension of the rules for the Traveller
universe. For example, a TL10 spinal mount (p. GT157), which includes a
18983.3 MW power plant slice, would require 76 maintenance crew (about 1/20
spaces). The TL12 meson spinal mount would require 19 (~1/80).

This will clearly have to be a topic of discussion for GT: Starships.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:22:05 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Government Type 6

G'day all,

Type 6 Governments (Captive/Colony) ala CT/T4 (and MT/TNE ??).

How do list-folk see them being run ?  That is, what images do they conjour
up and how do they (the government) affect the lives of PC's ?  

I'm trying to flesh out some systems to make them interesting/believable to
the players, but this one has me scratching my head.  I tend to envisage a
fairly repressed population under a foreign regime.

My specific problem is Pretoria (0406 - Pretoria/Deneb) which in 1120 has a
government type 6 with a population of 7 billion and no other system listed
as coloniser/owner.  Who's in control ?

Anyone got any thoughts or opinions ?

Dave H

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 06:05:20 -0700
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?...

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:33:16 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?...

- - -----Original Message-----
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 24 April 1999 5:05
Subject: A-10 versus MBT?

ObTrav here: IIRC, while looking through Striker it had no mechanism fo allowing penetration of a round through multiple hits. Penetration was based on the value of an individual round even if you had a very high ROF autocannon. Easier to hit, more hits, but no penetration bonus. Did Striker II resolve this, or did anyone come up with a resolution IYTU?
ALO

<< Snip >>

>Does the A-10 use it's 30mm gun on MBTs successfully? How?

>Simply throwing enough projectiles at the target to give a
>fair chance of a Golden BB/critical hit?
>
>Or does the A-10 have to use missile ordnance on MBTs?
>
>I can envision the 30mm shredding the armor of APCs, light
>tanks, and other sub-MBT targets pretty easily, but I'm
>just having trouble reconciling things, here.
>
<snip>
  I'd also assume that a VRF Gauss Gun might have a similar
effect?  This is my own observation -- any other Travellers care to set me
straight on that for my own records?

- - --  The Roc
   
- ---
"Purity of heart is to will one thing..."
                            Kierkegaard




- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:33:42 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #497

> Mystery Science Theater 3000. What I want to know is, if CITY is able
> to play them, then why does the Space web site say they *can't*???

Oops - my mistake. I thought Space played them. Brain fart there or something.

Anyways, there are two sides to the "news is entertainment" coin. While
it may seem low-brow to present the news as entertainment, CBC (as much as
I love it) too often makes entertainment into news. CBC thus becomes,
may times, the most boring TV station on the planet. Even more boring than
BBC4.

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:50:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Patches

Greetings, All,

If it's not too late, I'd like to vote on the patches I'd like to 
see:

IISS, of course (the field offices, primarily)

Beowulf crew patches

The various Imperial Sunbursts

and possibly the Jump Institute of Rhylanor or some similar 
educational institute.

Later,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:18:33 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 12:11 AM 4/24/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Frankly, I figure that the *fact* that they were ostracized played a
>>>big part in their going psycho. I heard one TV commentator making some
>>>comment about "Without guns we'd just get a fist fight". He obviously
>>>has never been one of the "outsiders". Because the "underclass" type
>>>kids *don't* get into fights. For two reasons. First, they always
>>>*lose*. Especially against "jocks". Second, *they* will be the ones who
>>>get into trouble, not the "normal" kids.
>>
>>
>>I heard the same comment today, and I had the same reaction. To further
>>illustrate your second point, a high school friend of mine was frequently
>>harassed and threatened with beatings. He walked up to his locker one day
>>and saw a threat and several disparaging insults. Later on during the day,
>>he was called down to the disciplinarian who told him he better remove it
>by
>>the end of the day or he'd get in trouble.
>
>The problem is that schools want to foster conformity. It's part of their
>job. Homogeneous students are easier to teach. They do not get into trouble.
>Jocks are treated better because they feed the needs of the parents in
>regards to competition and winning for the old school. The "normal" kids are
>the ones who adults see as copies of themselves.
>Strangely enough this is a relatively recent occurrence. The creation of
>peer groups among kids is a result of the American (and other western
>patterned) school systems that lump children together by age.  This practice
>is less than 150 years old. It results in what is in reality a separate
>social system from the adult social groups.  These social groups are
>completely independent, and no adult can really understand what happens in
>them.  They tend to have certain characteristics that remain the same from
>year to year. The jock phenomenon, for example, which is sustained because
>jocks are rewarded with special privileges by adults. And the uncool kid
>group, because the members of this group often are ignored by adults and
>weaker than the jocks. Because the jocks have been taught that physical
>prowess and winning is the most important thing it is alright to terrorize
>the uncool kids.  Adults also give them short shift, because they cause
>friction by their very existence, aren't athletic and make them feel
>uncomfortable, due to their nonconformity.
>
>obtrav: Sorry I can't think of anything. Sorry for the rant.
>
>Terry C.
>

OBtrav:  How about a death cult of non conformists who see inteligent life
as an anathama.  They want to 'cure' the milky way of the infestation of
inteligent life.  A 'good life' cult if you read the bizerker novels.  Give
them a secret base or two, some powerfull conections in the way of some
second sons of nobles or 'geek' nobles, some secret labs doing 'doom'
research ect.  Perhaps one of their labs has an accident and the super
Chimax escapes... or perhaps the darrians 'loose' a copy of the tech specs
for the star trigger...or the doom cult discover a different way to make a
star go super nova...or a long lost grandfather weapon so dangerious that it
could even take out grandfather and it's got him worried also...say a
'dimentional detonater' or planetary scale disintigrater!

Make the cultist real cultist.  Death is not something they fear but a
reward for a job well done in the service of the cause.  Now that is a
scrary enemy!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 07:27:37 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: TNE-RCES

Hey Keven.

The TNE-RCES list has a new address.

tne-rces@tower.baltimore.md.us

That might be your problem.

Other option is to send a letter to Mario and let him know.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:58:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: T4 Product Evaluation request

Greetings, All,

I just wanted to ask the general TML public which of the following T4 
products they would recommend to a fellow TMLer, and why.  Any 
warnings would also be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Anomalies
Emperor's Arsenal
Emperor's Vehicles
Long Way Home
Fire, Fusion, & Steel
Gateway
Annilik Run
Central Supply Catalog
Naval Architect's Manual
Imperial Squadron

Looking for the better written, more consistent/canonical, 
add-a-lot-to-my-campaign type of supplements.

Enjoy,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:55:33 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:02:55 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>BTW, Jim, where's the page for the TSW campaign????
>
>Keven


Its in dry dock for a major re-fit of its aciton and opiton units. 
Coming soon.  BTW, if anyone is interested in joining a re-starting PbEM
campaign, let me know.

Jim Clem
journeyman2000@juno.com
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 11:02:52 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

Forgive me, I was thinking Fuel Air Ordnance, not Fuel Air Explosive.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:29:46 EDT RnLschaefr@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 4/23/99 4:12:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>journeyman2000@juno.com writes:
>
><<  cluster bombs, FAO bombs, etc.  >>
>
>I hope you mean FAE fuel bombs...unless FAO 'Shwartz' has harnessed 
>the 
>"Smarm" energy of Barney the Dinosaur...Which *HAS* to be against the 
>Haque 
>Convention....
>
>BobS.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:31:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Imperial Taxation

On 04/25/99 16:50:02 Doug Berry wrote:
>
>At 07:46 PM 4/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>what makes up the Imperial tax base?  Unfortunately I am separated from my
>>Traveller books, so I can't look up this burning question.
>>Does the imperium:
>>
>>1) tax starport usage
>>2) levy personal or corporate income tax (like federal=imperial and
>>state=world?)
>>3) take a cut of each member world's Gross World Product?(corruption here we
>>come!)
>>4) take a tariff on all goods coming through imperial facilities?
>>5)all of the above?
>
>A mixture of 3 and 4, with 3 being the biggest cut.

	Does anyone have a canonical reference for this?  We were arguing about it in the 
GT:Starports playtest.  It has always been my impression that #3 & #4 were correct, but the 
playtest draft has #2, income taxes.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:55:33 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Product Evaluation request

Jason Kemp wrote:

> Greetings, All,
>
> I just wanted to ask the general TML public which of the following T4
> products they would recommend to a fellow TMLer, and why.  Any
> warnings would also be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

> Emperor's Arsenal
> Emperor's Vehicles

These are OK.  Not absolutely necessary but
they have a lot of useful things.  I think Arsenal
is more useful, but then I treat vehicles rather
disposably. ;-)

> Long Way Home

I liked this as a starter adventure for a campaign,
but I had great difficulty keeping the players interested.


> Fire, Fusion, & Steel

Good.  But get the errata.
And the correct formulas.  The ones in the book look crazy.
(Printing error, IIRC)

> Central Supply Catalog

Some useful stuff.  My players like it a lot.

> Naval Architect's Manual

Nice pictures/plans, but not necessary.

> Imperial Squadron

Good.

> Looking for the better written, more consistent/canonical,
> add-a-lot-to-my-campaign type of supplements.

In that case, IMHO, the best supplements for T4 are:
Aliens Archive
Pocket Empires
Psionic Institutes
Imperial Squadrons

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #504
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 505



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Government Type-6
Re: T4 Product Evaluation request
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Government Type 6
Problem-solving (was RPG Paranoia)
OT: "Outcast" Students
Re: T4 Product Evaluation request
Re: More about Imperial taxes
Re: RPG Paranoia...
Re: Abellatra
Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]
T4 Product Evaluation request
Re: RPG Paranoia...
Re: More about Imperial taxes
Re: TNE-RCES 
Re: TNE-RCES 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:19:20 -0700
From: "Derek Stanley" <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Government Type-6

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BE8FC5.DE137920
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
> Subject: Government Type 6
>=20
> G'day all,
>
> Type 6 Governments (Captive/Colony) ala CT/T4 (and MT/TNE ??).

In MT it's still Captive, in TNE it's either Captive (Non-Wilds) or TED =
(Technoligically Elevated Dictator) if it's a Wilds world.

> How do list-folk see them being run ?  That is, what images do they =
conjour
> up and how do they (the government) affect the lives of PC's ? =20

Depends greatly upon the politic's of the homeworld.  If the homeworld =
is repressive then the colony is likely to follow suite.  It could also =
be owned by a corporation or something.

> My specific problem is Pretoria (0406 - Pretoria/Deneb) which in 1120 =
has a
> government type 6 with a population of 7 billion and no other system =
listed
> as coloniser/owner.  Who's in control ?

According to the TNE Regency Sourcebook as of 1120.

Pretoria    0406   B656967-C   N   Hi Cp Mr     720  DD  G5 IV

Okay, population over a billion, captive/colony government, moderate =
law.  The thing you want to look at here is the Trade codes.

Hi - Hi Population
Cp - Subsector Captial
Mr - Military Rule...   <--This is the important one.

Thus being a Subsector Capital and under Military Rule, we can assume =
that Pretoria is likely on giant Military camp under the direct control =
of Deneb.

DS


- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BE8FC5.DE137920
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; From: David Healey &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:dhealey@giant.net.au">dhealey@giant.net.au</A>&gt;<BR>&gt;=
 Subject:=20
Government Type 6<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; G'day all,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Type 6 =
Governments=20
(Captive/Colony) ala CT/T4 (and MT/TNE ??).<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In MT it's still Captive, in TNE it's =
either=20
Captive (Non-Wilds) or TED (Technoligically Elevated Dictator) if it's a =
Wilds=20
world.</DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>&gt; How do list-folk see them =
being run=20
?&nbsp; That is, what images do they conjour<BR>&gt; up and how do they =
(the=20
government) affect the lives of PC's ?&nbsp; <BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Depends greatly upon the politic's of =
the=20
homeworld.&nbsp; If the homeworld is repressive then the colony is =
likely to=20
follow suite.&nbsp; It could also be owned by a corporation or=20
something.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>&gt; My specific problem is =
Pretoria (0406 -=20
Pretoria/Deneb) which in 1120 has a<BR>&gt; government type 6 with a =
population=20
of 7 billion and no other system listed<BR>&gt; as =
coloniser/owner.&nbsp; Who's=20
in control ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>According to the TNE Regency Sourcebook =
as of=20
1120.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pretoria&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
0406&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
B656967-C&nbsp;&nbsp; N&nbsp;&nbsp; Hi Cp Mr&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
720&nbsp;=20
DD&nbsp; G5 IV</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Okay, population over a billion, =
captive/colony=20
government, moderate law.&nbsp; The thing you want to look at here is =
the Trade=20
codes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi -&nbsp;Hi Population</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cp - Subsector Captial</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mr - Military Rule...&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;--This is the=20
important one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thus being a Subsector Capital and =
under Military=20
Rule, we can assume that Pretoria is likely on giant Military camp under =
the=20
direct control of Deneb.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>DS<BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BE8FC5.DE137920--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:54:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Product Evaluation request

At 09:58 AM 4/26/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Anomalies

Poor.  Many of the adventures were written by people with little knowledge
of Traveller.

>Emperor's Arsenal

Excellent.  Very well written and useful.

>Emperor's Vehicles

Very Poor.  No Tech Levels given for the vehicles, not enough useful
information, Generally poor designs.  Get 102 Vehicles from BITS instead.

>Long Way Home
>Gateway

Average.  Fairly good adventures, but better in the original BITS form.

>Fire, Fusion, & Steel

Good.  If you really like designing equipment down to the last weld, this
book is for you.  WARNING: The formula are presented in a really odd format.

>Annilik Run

Awful.  Gack, spit, vomit.  Possibily the worst waste of trees and ink ever
inflicted upon Traveller.  All copies, along with the author, should be
burned.  Unclean!!!

>Central Supply Catalog

Good.  Very useful collection of gear for any Traveller game.  Includes
some interesting rules.  The vehicle design rules are a lot of fun, and if
you have access to a Mac, there is software avalible to speed the process.

>Naval Architect's Manual

Average.  A collection of deckplans, nothing more.  Useful for helping
players visualize where they are onboard ship, but filled with silly,
non-canon ideas like having laser turrets with windows so the gunner can
aim visually!!

>Imperial Squadrons

Good.  Raise this to very good if you plan on running a Navy Campaign.  One
complaint, my ship designs were ruined by IG, but them's the breaks.  Uses
a system based on Fifth Frontier War to run combat for Pocket Empires.

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:37:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

At 06:05 PM 4/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a .32
>> ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.
>
>Uh... why?

Because the Alabama State Police don't appreciate soldiers from Ft. Benning
spending their Saturdays in Phenix City shooting at floating beer bottles
in the Chattahoche River.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:29:59
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Government Type 6

At 09:22 PM 4/26/99 +1000, you wrote:

>Type 6 Governments (Captive/Colony) ala CT/T4 (and MT/TNE ??).

>I'm trying to flesh out some systems to make them interesting/believable to
>the players, but this one has me scratching my head.  I tend to envisage a
>fairly repressed population under a foreign regime.

Not necessarily.. Look at the Law Level.  All Gov 6 means is that the
government is offworld.  It could be a situation like the early American
colonies, where people were enthusiastic supports of the Mother Country,
and just didn't have the resources to self-govern.


- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:53:16 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Problem-solving (was RPG Paranoia)

The variables that led to the shooting in Columbine HS are probably
numerous, but a few of the more obvious ones are:

1) Killers were alienated youths, subject to ridicule by their peers during
a time in their lives that peer pressure is at it's strongest (at least for
most humans in modern American society).

2) Killers gained access to firearms and information necessary to construct
explosive devices.

3) Killers believed that violence was a suitable method to achieve a
motivational goal (the nature of this goal is, as of this writing, still a
subject of speculation).

There are, of course, other variables involved, since the above combination
of variables is not necessarily exclusive to the killers at Columbine, yet
the incidence of events similar to what recently occured there cannot be
referred to as "commonplace."

Where this subject affects this list most is in the third variable above.
It has been suggested that game-playing is an instrumental factor in
causing such incidents as that which occured at this unfortunate Colorado
high school.

How the killers in the Columbine incident came to the belief that violence
is a suitable method of problem-solving a subject of debate. It seems
obvious that exposure to the concept of "violence as a means of achieving
an end" was most likely through the various information media such as
movies, games, history classes, etc. However, it is equally obvious that
such exposure is not sufficient to cause otherwise normal individuals to
become murderous.

But still, it is a factor.

So what do we do?

ObTrav: If the incidence of individuals who will resort to actions that
result in massacres can be expressed as a percentage of the total
population, then such incidents will increase as population increases. Add
to this factors such as the capability of high tech weapons to kill large
numbers of people, and you have a recipe in the Imperium for numerous
Columbine-style incidents (or worse).

Science fiction is, in a lot of ways, about solving problems through
technological advance (or at least dealing with problems that technological
advance causes). An Imperial fleet with laser-detonation warheads can do
little to reduce the suffering alienated youths, nor deter them from taking
drastic and tragic actions. So what technology can the Imperium bring to
bear on this problem?

Perhaps in thinking on this, we might gain insight into what we can do in
the real world to prevent such events from occuring.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net
[Who often wonders at his own facination with technologies of destruction
and apologizes if this comes across as a little "preachy"]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:59:16 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: OT: "Outcast" Students

Apropos of people talking about keeping kids sane, I thought 
this might be valuable to some of you. I'm just about done 
talking about Littleton, I promise. 

The important part here is:
http://www.sharon.net/hsunderground/

- -Russell Bornschlegel

- ----------------------------------------------------------------

Sameer Parekh wrote:
> For release: April 26, 1999
> 
> Contact:
> Charles Platt: 520 634 5533
> Srini Kumar: 415 602 3666
> 
>   IN WAKE OF LITTLETON MASSACRE, BERKELEY ENTREPRENEUR SAMEER PAREKH
>           LAUNCHES SITE FOR UNDERGROUND HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS
> 
> Berkeley, CA - In the wake of the Littleton massacre, Berkeley
> entreprenuer Sameer Parekh has launched a support site for high school
> students who feel outcast and unsupported by their local communities.
> The site aims to provide an effective outlet for outcast students so
> that they do not resort to violence in order to express their
> frustration with mainstream society.
> 
> "When a student feels outcast from mainstream society, no 'counseling'
> or 'student guidance' from the mainstream authorities is going to
> help," said site founder Parekh. "The only way to prevent outcast
> students from exploding into violence is to provide them with
> alternative means of expressing themselves, often means which do not
> fit into the mainstream and accepted means of expression available to
> high school students."
> 
> Site founder Parekh has direct experience with being an outcast high
> school student. In order to express his frustration with mainstream
> society, he published an alternative newsletter in his high school
> explaining his libertarian and free speech absolutist beliefs. It is
> this expression which gave him the self confidence to survive in a
> high school community environment which tried to put him down.
> 
> Although Parekh was constantly being persecuted by local school
> officials, he was gifted with parents who understood his need to
> express himself. Many high school students are not so lucky. In order
> to provide support for students who wish to express themselves but
> have no local support, Parekh decided to found the High School
> Underground site.
> 
> "Being an angry rebel can be very lonely, and very depressing. You
> feel as if the world is trying to squash you, and you wish you had the
> power to fight back," said Charles Platt, writer for the site and a
> contributing editor at Wired Magazine.
> 
> The High School Underground site will provide:
> 
> o Support to disaffected students who do not find support for
>   their activities within their community
> o A forum for students to learn from each other and those who
>   have gone before them
> o Information on the legal issues surrounding free expression
>   in high schools
> 
> The site can be reached at http://www.sharon.net/hsunderground/
> temporarily. The site will be housed permanently at
> http://www.hsunderground.com/.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:00:55 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 Product Evaluation request

At 11:55 AM 4/26/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> Fire, Fusion, & Steel
>
>Good.  But get the errata.
>And the correct formulas.  The ones in the book look crazy.
>(Printing error, IIRC)

Where is this available?  My copy has these annoying two headed arrows,
which I think are multiplication signs....  

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:10:46 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: More about Imperial taxes

At 07:56 AM 4/26/99 +0200, you wrote:
>That's something I've suggested before, but it's not canon. It's just that
>with one exception all the Imperial companies for which we have stock
>ownership information (which is the 13 megacorporations and three or four
>lesser companies) have a minimum of 2% (not 5) owned by 'Imperial Family'.
>For some of them it is much more than 2%, but that would, of course,
>represent genuine investments on the part of various Imperial family
>members. 

Yup, it is 2%, not 5%.  This is explicitly stated in GT Far Trader (p
46-47), which, of course, is as canon as you want it to be...  Since I'm
playing in GT, that makes it canon IMTU...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:26:51 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia...

Gregory Wall wrote:
> Chris Seamans wrote:
> > I know that it's amazingly off-topic, but I have a question
> > about this and I've never gotten the opportunity to ask
> > someone who was in your camp. What is supposed to be
> > accomplished by a dress code, exactly? I ask this mainly
> > because *all* of the schools I went to had a strict dress
> > code which seemed to accomplish absolutely nothing. Is there
> > something I was missing about the concept?
> 
> The concept is "equallity" to a certain degree, everyone
> wearing the same uniform at school doesn't single out those
> trendoids/well-to-do's with Calvin Cline (spelling?) Jeans,
> Gucci, whatever, against those with <insert cheap generic brand
> here>.  Although, unless this also includes footwear, mobile
> phones, jewelry, etc., then the effect/reasoning is lost.
> Basically, everyone dressed the same doing the same work suffer
> no class (as in wealth) distinctions... in theory.

Been there, done that, bought the school tie.  It doesn't work.

Because my parents moved when  I  was  young  I  experienced  two
different high schools.  The  first  had  a  school  uniform  and
routine corporal punishment (one of my better teachers often used
to slap a random kid up the side of the head as a way of  getting
the class's attention!).  This was a violent place with a  brutal
pecking order, and even though we all dressed the same  we  still
had social cliques (jocks/swots/etc).  Students cared little  for
their work (school was something to be endured) and we  all  felt
strongly motivated to rebel against the system ...  many  carried
knives to vandalise school property, public transport,  and  each
other.

The second high  school  was  a  mirror  image:  no  uniform,  no
corporal punishment.  There was little vandalism, few  fights  or
masocistic tendencies, and lessons seemed  important.  There  was
almost nothing to rebel against.  The students felt they had some
ownership of their lives and their futures.

Introducing school uniforms to improve student behavior may  work
in individual cases, but overall will fail.  Schools  are  micro-
societies, and every social problem is complex.  Simple quick-fix
solutions are the result of a poor  understanding  of  this.  I'm
not against school uniforms as such, but this idea is in the same
class as banning black  clothing  because  of  what  happened  in
Denver.

ObTrav:  If more schools ban RPGs  as  a  result  of  the  Denver
tradgedy (and others)  then  in  time  there  will  be  less  RPG
players (schools being the largest source of new  players).  Less
RPG players means less RPG consumers.  Less RPG  consumers  means
more RPG companies will fail.  Thus the TML, as part of the wider
RPG community has a vested interest in the way in which our world
precieves and interprets these  events.  The  lack  of  sociology
skills in  the  general  public  ultimately  threaten  out  hobby
(amongst other things).  We need positive PR.

... Actually we need a better general public, what we have belong
in South Park!

Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:35:05 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Abellatra

>>>Also:  How old was Arbellatra during the Second Frontier War?  I seem to
>>>recall one source saying she was quite young.  If so, what does this mean
>>>about the Imperial Navy?
>>According to the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, Arbellatra was born in 587.  The
>>Second Frontier War lasted from 615 to 620, so she was 28-33 during the
>>war.  This *is* young for a Sector Admiral, but she was a genius.  It's
>>also noted that Cleon V (565 [615] 618) was the one who gave Arbellatra the
>>command.
>>hmmm..  Why does Cleon V take time from fighting the Civil War to appoint
>>what was probably a Lt. Commander at best to the highest ranking position
>>in the Marches?

    When the US was gearing for for WWII, Eisenhower was a Major.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
COFFEE.EXE Missing - Insert Cup and Press Any Key.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:37:23 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

>Regardless, the issue isn't whether both are intertwined structurally. When
>I play Quake, Doom or something similar, it's for an entirely different
>reason than when I play Traveller, or AD&D, or GURPS. All I'm saying is that
>all of this talk of distancing groups of roleplayers makes me nervous. It's
>not like roleplayers, as a group, aren't already fractured enough. It's bad
>enough I have to keep track of the GURPS vs. AD&D camps, the CT vs. MT vs.
>TNE camps, the G:T vs. traditional Trav camps and so on...
>

I'd like to add a bit here.

One thing about GURPS is it is more realistic than most RPGs as far as
combat and lethalness is concurned.  Most players learn real quick that
combat with modern or future weapons means death or very serious injury to
unarmored people in a hurry.  In the fantacy part of the system magic and
armor reduce the risk some but combat is still risky and charater death all
to easy.

I've played RPGs for many years.  I played many systems.  I found it very
refreashing to see AD&D hack and slashers play the GURPS system for the
first time.  After ONE combat they start looking for other solutions (after
creating a few replacement characters, love those damage multipliers for
cutting and impailing attacks).  GURPS teaches the good players that combat
is the last option and if you must fight have every advantage you can manage.

I too, have played and GMed many hours of RPGs without any direct violence
(threats, intimadation, and dirty tricks yes combat no).  In a recent long
running game the only deadly combat the PC took part in was a battle with
some wild pigs that some very foolish and very hungry NPCs tried to eat.
There was a murder investigation earlier on but the bad guy was brought down
by grappling unharmed.  The 'what do we do with him now?' was also great
role playing.  IE: fast talking a lench mob in one not so easy lesson. (Grin)

The PCs were part of a marroned group and food was running short when
someone discovered piglets.  Moma and daddy peckery came to see why baby was
squeeling.  Imagine a large crowd of unarmed tourists and a small herd, 6
adults, of very angery wild pigs.  Only a few pisols were available to a few
ships officers who had been issued them for the life boat boarding.  The
pistols were .32 caliber revolvers and the adult pig were 200+ pounds and
berserk!  It was a crisis management situation and very tense.  Great role
playing by the players.  The pigs also used up a large part of the very
limited ammo available and some of the even more limited medical supplies
had to be used as well.

Not all RPG situations have to be combat based and even the 'combat' based
one can be, in effect, non violent.  The PCs did not want to the fight or
hurt the pigs but they did not want to get gored with only minimal first aid
available.

My one serious gripe, in the old days, with D&D (the only RPG I was aware of
at that time) was that it was set up for mostly hack and slash dundeon
crawling but one day, while looking for newly published D&D suplements,  I
came across those little black books....(Big Grin!)

Ps: I work with computers 8+ hours a day.  I generally am sick of looking at
a screen by quiting time so computer games are not high on my list of
recreational activities.  After a week in the office I want to be outside.
Thanks to some recent changes in my life (for the better) I'm back into
gardening and some other long neglected hobbies and activities that get me
out into the fresh air and sunshine.  It's amazing how much it can improve
your outlook on life.

The irony is that I got into electronics because of the games.  Now I find
most video games boring and predictable.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:40:47 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: T4 Product Evaluation request

>Anomalies
	Don't have it.
>Emperor's Arsenal
	Have it, love it.  Lot's of material & background.  Nicely illustrated as
well.
>Emperor's Vehicles
	Looked at it in the FLGS, decided it wasn't worth the money.  Lack of
actual data.  Nice illustrations though.
>Long Way Home
	Don't have it.
>Fire, Fusion, & Steel
	As the ringmaster of the GearHead Ring, I'd say, buy it, live it, love it.
>Gateway
	Don't have it.
>Annilik Run
	Don't have it.
>Central Supply Catalog
	Have it, love it.  Lot's of material & background.
>Naval Architect's Manual
	Don't have it.
>Imperial Squadron
	Don't have it.

Pocket Empires
	Good book for high level campaigning.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:13:08 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia...

>... Actually we need a better general public, what we have belong
>in South Park!
>

That is becoming all to true with to much of the general public.

>Regards PLST
>"Rome wasn't burned in a day."
>

Charles L.

PS: I HATE South Park!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:36:29 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: More about Imperial taxes

> Well, all LICs (License Imperial Corporations) have to give 5% of their
> stock to the emperor... That's a _lot_ of money...  There is probably more
> though...

Far Trader says (pg 47) its 2%.

From MT Ref's Companion, it looks like Instellarms doesn't have any shares 
belonging to the Imperial family, though "noble families" have 8 percent.  
The megacorps all are owned, at least in part, by each other and since the 
Emperor has a piece of the pie in every other megacorp, he would indirectly 
have it with Instellararms, too, wouldn't he?  

Course, MT is reknown for its editing difficulties and that could be one of 
em (and/or) whatever the source is, as IIRC, Ref's Companion is a compliation.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:43:34 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: TNE-RCES 

> Hey Keven.
> 
> The TNE-RCES list has a new address.
> 
> tne-rces@tower.baltimore.md.us
> 
> That might be your problem.

So I'll have to resubscribe?
 
> Other option is to send a letter to Mario and let him know.

Great.  I tried that & got it bounced back to me since Mario's *old* address was the same server as TNE-RCES.  <sigh>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:19:30 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: TNE-RCES 

In a message dated 4/26/99 11:57:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jamstar@earthlink.net writes:

<< So I'll have to resubscribe? >>

Is this list worth it for someone who is just interested in the Regency? I 
guess I'm too attached to the 3I...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #505
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 506



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #500
Apologies.
Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)
Re: T4 Product Evaluation request
Re: 101 Starhips for GT
Re: Problem-solving
Re: Government Type 6
Re: Government Type 6
[OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]
Re: RPG Paranoia:  Conformity issues
Re: RPG Paranoia:  clothes
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Origin of the term "Lighter"
GT SIM missiles
Re: Origin of the term "Lighter"
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
RE: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
[OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
re: White Globes
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:25:06 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #500

In a message dated 4/25/99 9:49:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jg42@cornell.edu 
writes:

<< 
 Well, all LICs (License Imperial Corporations) have to give 5% of their
 stock to the emperor... That's a _lot_ of money...  There is probably more
 though...
  >>

	I also seem to remeber seeing somewhere that the Imperium taxes the 
worlds and not individuals, which makes it easier to collect on their level 
and keeps the Imperial Fiscus out of people's daily lives.

               Dave nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 12:49:43 -0700
From: "Derek Stanley" <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Apologies.

Hope this doesn't attach all the crap (pardon my French) that the last one
did.  If it does I apologize.

Just DL's Internet Explorer 5 and am playing with it, I forgot about the
fact that Microsquish loves sending out E-Mail in HTML format.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:04:09 -0700
From: "Jean Lansford" <lansford@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)

On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>At 04:17 PM 4/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>  "Veteran of the Psychic Wars"
>>>  Performed by Blue Oyster Cult
>>>  Written by Michael Moorcock and BOC
>>
>>Michael Moorcock the SF writer?  Is my ignorance showing here :) ?
>
>The very same.  MM is a big fan of BOC, and has penned several sets of
>lyrics for them.

Um, other way around, actually.  BOC's lead singer is a huge MM fan, and Eric and MM have appeared together at a couple of conventions within the past several years.  But MM has been snarky about the band, beginning shortly after "Veteran" came out.  Something about no one telling MM that BOC was recording a song based on that poem.  

MM got along much better with Hawkwind.  He toured with them on several occasions, doing poetry readings at the shows.  I believe HW's live set "Space Ritual" has MM reading the poem that became "Veteran".  IIRC, he also did introductions on the Chronicle of the Black Sword tour.




- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:37:58 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Product Evaluation request

Jason,


 Emperor's Arsenal--very good!  excellent selection of weapons of all tech 
levels, a few typoes in the charts, but info is recovereable elsewhere in the 
book.

 Emperor's Vehicles:  awful!   don;t touch with 10 foot pole! vehicles not 
rated for tech level, much of needed info missing, much wasted space--yucck!
 
 Fire, Fusion, & Steel:  too dense for my taste, but must for gearheads  
 
 Central Supply Catalog:  good.  nice selection of equipment of various 
sorts, useable vehicle desing system, rules for vehicle combat

 Imperial Squadron:  update of Trillion Credit Squadron.  Not my cup of tea, 
but good noetheless

For background:  Milieau 0, very good,   First Survey--bad.

                             Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:04:34 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: 101 Starhips for GT

On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 01:26:08 -0400, Robert Prior
<robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>>does anyone know where I can get this I didn't see it listed on the SJG
>>page? I know they are distributing BITS products?

>>TIA
>>Mike

>You can download it from BITS or Freelance Traveller.

>www.bits.org.uk (it's in the archives)

>come.to/FreelanceTraveller (not certain where it is, but browse around and
>look at the cool stuff :-)

101 Starships for GURPS Traveller can be found in Freelance
Traveller's "Shipyard" section.  We'll be adding additional
graving docks as time permits; it's a rather small facility at
the moment.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:00:49 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Problem-solving

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:
>
> ObTrav: If the incidence of individuals who will resort to
> actions that result in massacres can be expressed as a
> percentage of the total population, then such incidents
> will increase as population increases. Add to this factors
> such as the capability of high tech weapons to kill large
> numbers of people, and you have a recipe in the Imperium
> for numerous Columbine-style incidents (or worse).


Big time.

> Science fiction is, in a lot of ways, about solving problems
> through technological advance (or at least dealing with
> problems that technological advance causes). An Imperial
> fleet with laser-detonation warheads can do little to reduce
> the suffering alienated youths, nor deter them from taking
> drastic and tragic actions. So what technology can the
> Imperium bring to bear on this problem?


What do kids crave more than anything?  Attention.  Issue each
child a cyber-desk.  This portable computer contains all the
books and resources most students need.  The most important
thing in it is a powerful mentor program that helps the student
overcome their weaknesses and is always there to listen and
give advice.  Linked into the mentor is psychological monitoring
software with routines that talk to the parents about issues
that are important to their children.

  "Mrs Taki?  This is Albert, Joey's mentor.  Joey scored
   93% on today's spelling exam.  I think it would be grand
   if you let him know that was a job well done."

Of course, the mentor is really Big Brother in a box.  Figure
built-in home signals, crisis reporting to authorities, and
building psyche profiles that stay with a child through their
adult life.  It would be hideously effective as a propaganda
vehicle and for shaping young minds into productive consumers.

> [Who often wonders at his own facination with technologies of
> destruction and apologizes if this comes across as a little 
> "preachy"]


Not at all.  Given that I finally got to see Matrix, the
technology of destruction is looking real sexy right now.
Of course, I'm also a Hong Kong action, anime, SciFi kind
of guy.  I've been meaning to do a game like that for years.
Maybe it will see the light of day.  Amber DRPG or Feng Shui
would be a perfect ruleset to do it with.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:02:33 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Government Type 6

From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Government Type 6


>G'day all,
>
>Type 6 Governments (Captive/Colony) ala CT/T4 (and MT/TNE ??).
>
>How do list-folk see them being run ?  That is, what images do they conjour
>up and how do they (the government) affect the lives of PC's ?
>
>I'm trying to flesh out some systems to make them interesting/believable to
>the players, but this one has me scratching my head.  I tend to envisage a
>fairly repressed population under a foreign regime.
>
>My specific problem is Pretoria (0406 - Pretoria/Deneb) which in 1120 has a
>government type 6 with a population of 7 billion and no other system listed
>as coloniser/owner.  Who's in control ?
>
>Anyone got any thoughts or opinions ?
>
>Dave H


    Crown Colony.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:37:24 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Government Type 6

On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:56:27 -0400, David Healey
<dhealey@giant.net.au> wrote:

>Type 6 Governments (Captive/Colony) ala CT/T4 (and MT/TNE ??).

>How do list-folk see them being run ?  That is, what images do they conjour
>up and how do they (the government) affect the lives of PC's ?  

>I'm trying to flesh out some systems to make them interesting/believable to
>the players, but this one has me scratching my head.  I tend to envisage a
>fairly repressed population under a foreign regime.

>My specific problem is Pretoria (0406 - Pretoria/Deneb) which in 1120 has a
>government type 6 with a population of 7 billion and no other system listed
>as coloniser/owner.  Who's in control ?

>Anyone got any thoughts or opinions ?

Unfortunately, Gov 6 is not, IMO, well thought-out.  It _should_
denote a government that is directly responsible (i.e., not
autonomous) to another (i.e., that must subordinate its own
interests in toto to the interests of another government, even
where such subordination would not be in the best interests of
the subordinate world) - but that provides no information about
the actual structure of that subordinate government.

It's also used as a 'best choice' for a military dictatorship
(i.e., the government is captive to its own armed forces).

I think it would have been better if Gov 6 was used for "Armed
Forces in control of government (i.e., military dictatorship)",
with conquered or colony governments being indicated in the notes
(i.e., conquered and under military occupation would be Gov 6
with O:1208 in the notes, colony with a representative democracy
locally would be Gov 4 with O:1208 in the notes).

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:06:20 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
> Subject: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

> Every school shooter that has ripped apart communities across this country
> hasn't played tabletop RPGs. All of them did not play Doom or Quake. Not
> all of them dressed in black trenchcoats. They don't seem to share the same
> taste in music or film. Not all of them are avid World War II buffs. What
> is the common denominator here? In case after case, we hear *from other
> students* that these children were teased and ostracized by their
> classmates for a variety of reasons.

That, and the fact that they are all middle or upper middle class
suburban kids.  Maybe all that exposure to cars, single family homes,
and shopping malls is just too much for some people.

Ob Traveller:  The Stepford Wives could be an interesting scenario to
run. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:14:24 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia:  Conformity issues

Sorry, this is pretty far off topic, but I hope you enjoy my true story.

> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>

> I know that it's amazingly off-topic, but I have a question about this and
> I've never gotten the opportunity to ask someone who was in your camp. What
> is supposed to be accomplished by a dress code, exactly? I ask this mainly
> because *all* of the schools I went to had a strict dress code which seemed
> to accomplish absolutely nothing. Is there something I was missing about
> the concept?
> 
> As far as restrictions on hair length and style... well, I'm biased on that
> one as I fought hard for three years against them at my high school.

When I was in high scholl in Boise, Idaho (1973-76), there was a fair
amount of worried discussion about long hair and beards on male
students, but most of the real stressing out about it had ended early in
the decade.  Different things were tried, and I think my high school
(Capital) even had a hair length requirement (that I totally violated
until my senior year, when I decided, for fun more than anything, to get
a crew cut).  Boise High School did enact a fairly strict maximum hair
length rule.

Fast forward to about 1982.  I had graduated from college and was living
in Boise again. Crew cuts and even shaved heads were becoming popular
among the punk rockers.  Boise High School made the news by imposing a
_minimum_ hair length rule.  Parents, many of whom had fought the hair
wars in Boise's high schools in the 1960s, went berserk (in both
directions -- berserk support and berserk opposition).  It was an
interesting place and time.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:26:40 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia:  clothes

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

> Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a .32
> ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.

"Is that a gun in your swim trunks or are you just glad ... oh, it is a
gun in your swim trunks."

Would you mind showing us that particular concealed carry at the
Baycon/Denny's dinner?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:40:44 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> From: AveNelso@aol.com

>         This is the policy at the school where I teach, and I find it 
> appalling.   To demand that someone not defend himself when attacked is the
> height of oatmeal-headedness.

I suppose that all children who might be targetted should learn aikido. 
"But, Mr. Principal, I didn't defend myself.  He attacked me and I got
out of the way.  Then he fell down because he wasn't controlling his
energy and direction.  Then he kept attacking and I kept getting out of
the way and he kept falling down until he was exhausted."  Not many
teenagers could get to that level of aikido quickly enough,
unfortunately.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:44:34 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Origin of the term "Lighter"

> From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
> Subject: Original of the term "Lighter"
> 
> Where does the term "Lighter" (Far Trader pg 137) come from?

It's an old term for a small boat used to carry cargo from a ship to the
dock.  The precise etymology I don't know -- maybe the Oxford English
Dictionary is on the web?  If I remember, I'll look it up in the
bookstore when I go out later today.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:55:07 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: GT SIM missiles

I'm trying to re-create the SIM missiles provided in GT 158-159 and am
having trouble with the communicator.  Here's what I got:

 		TL10+, Very long range, recieve only, laser
Weight	.25		*100		*.2	 *10
Cost		$50		*10		*.1	*12.5
Range	5000		*100		*1	*2
Power	.01		*10		*.1	*10

That gives a total of:

Weight: 50lb
Cost: 625
Range: 1,000,000 miles
Power: .1kW

However, the GT version has exactly half the weigth, half the range, same
cost, and .16kW power.  Does anyone know what I'm missing?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:59:54 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Origin of the term "Lighter"

At 02:44 PM 4/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
>> Subject: Original of the term "Lighter"
>> 
>> Where does the term "Lighter" (Far Trader pg 137) come from?
>
>It's an old term for a small boat used to carry cargo from a ship to the
>dock.  The precise etymology I don't know -- maybe the Oxford English
>Dictionary is on the web?  If I remember, I'll look it up in the
>bookstore when I go out later today.

According to the OED:

A boat or vessel, usually a flat-bottomed barge, used in lightening or
unloading (sometimes loading) ships that cannot be discharged (or loaded)
at a wharf, etc., and for transporting goods of any kind, usually in a harbor.

The earliest usage given is AD 1489.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 00:57:34 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

- ----------
> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
> Date: 22. huhtikuuta 1999 22:40
> 
> > I imagine that alot of teachers who are beginning to
> >enter the pool now were weaned on the same music I was...
> 
> Beethoven, actually. But then I've been teaching a while... :-)
> 
> 
> >Frightening thought. I'd better get moving with my life.
> 
> Hadn't we all?
> 
> 
> ObTrav: A challenge. Write a starter scenario for Traveller, suitable for
> use by beginners to role-playing (let alone Traveller).  Something a high
> school gaming club could use with a minimum of preparation. Include all
the
> explanatory material and notes so that new gamers could start right away,
> and have a reasonable chance of success in the adventure.  Choose a theme
> that teenagers would get into.
> 
>
I have just finished last week a scenario like that. I was asked to start
(or really restart) a gaming club at a local high school. As I was one of
the people first involved in such a club when I was at that very same
school (not that many years ago (<10?)) I decided to try it. Because of the
concept of GM:ing for total beginners, and because I had been inspired by
the G:T, I decided to have a go at G:T. I made an adventure starring GTL 6
farmers in a remote village on a planet that gets visited by Varg ihatei
invaders. Because the characters were uneducated and backward, I didn't
have to explain a lot of the world before the game started.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:11:03 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

- ----------
> From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
> Date: 27. huhtikuuta 1999 0:40
> 
> > From: AveNelso@aol.com

> I suppose that all children who might be targetted should learn aikido. 
> "But, Mr. Principal, I didn't defend myself.  He attacked me and I got
> out of the way.  Then he fell down because he wasn't controlling his
> energy and direction.  Then he kept attacking and I kept getting out of
> the way and he kept falling down until he was exhausted."  Not many
> teenagers could get to that level of aikido quickly enough,
> unfortunately.  
> 
I tried, and I didn't.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:38:19 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: OT: RPG Paranoia

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>Along with my email to the Chronicle, I also forwarded the article to the
>director of the Penisula Masquerade Group, and he's already invited the
>Chron to send a reporter to cover what they really do.

Another potential complication from this side of the pond - London had it's
second nail bomb attack this weekend. The media (and police) have linked
the attacks to far right racial supremacy groups - namely Combat 18, and a
group called the White Wolves. I hope that the UK media (who have already
started to link the US killings to a similar type of group) don't make the
link ->

Vampire - Trenchcoat - White Wolf....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:44:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

 "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:
>In Stand on Zanzibar, John Brunner writes of a phenomenon known as
>"mucking", in which a mucker goes amok and starts killing everyone
>around.  It happens all the time.  It's caused by becoming too stressed
>out by the overcrowding and other tensions of life in his vision of the
>late 20th century.

cf 2000AD's Judge Dredd and the tendancy for citizen's to crack and go
Futsie (Future Shock....) and kill everyone around.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:58:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin) wrote:
>On top of that, "Dungeons and Dragons" and "D&D" are a good way
>to press one of the hot buttons of the so-called "religious
>right".  One of the books had to be renamed - and practically
>rewritten - to placate them; they were going on and on about
>"devil worship" because of the title of the book and the names of
>the demons whose stats were given.  The media remembers that, and
>sensationalism sells.

Deities and Demigods ;-) ?

There again, they released a 'fiends' style supplement for the ringbound
Monstrous compendium some time later.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:06:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>I was pondering _my_ school years and how a caring adult got me onto the
>right track. A Young Adult librarian at my local public library branch
>started a video club and a science fiction club...Sarajean saved a bunch
>of people this way. We were all nerds and outcasts, and we finally found
>someone who would take us seriously and taught us it _does_ get better.
>I learned a _lot_ from and with those people.

We had a teacher (Lyn Smith) who had an older brother who played RPGs. She
cleared the way for us to use her classroom, and run the club we set up
herself. I suspect that she cleared it with the management first, but we
never had any problems at the school (Catholic Church funded too..).

I'm not sure how much she had to argue for the set up, but it became home
for 10 to 20 of us from the age of 11 to 17. Interesting group too (a wide
range of ability and backgrounds).

It's something that I really liked, and appreciated. Gave me a lot of
confidence (I ran the club). Recently, my wife Sarah (teaching maths 11-16
years) has allowed some of her kids to play RPGs in her room a lunch. She
doesn't play them herself, but appreciates these 'weirdy games' her husband
plays.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:41:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: White Globes

"jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com> wrote:

>GURPS Traveller mentions "White Globes" as well as black globes. I don't
>remember these devices and haven't been able to find any Library Data
>entries on them. Are they from an obscure Adventure pack, or am I just more
>ignorant than usual?

They're in the MT design sequence at > Imperial TL's. IIRC you can manuever
and see out of a White Globe.

Not sure if they're in FFSn

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:19:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>But that attitude is *exactly* the sort of thing that leads to these
>problems. Another one is the old "it takes two to make a fight". Lord,
>the number of times I heard that. If I'd known then what I know now,
>I'd told the "responsible adults" saying that "So you'd rather I just
>stood there and let him beat the shit out of me? It's not as if I can
>out run him, you know."
>
>Another good response would be "Yeah, but it only takes *one* to
>administer a beating."

I found that the bullying only stopped after two occasions - one where I
dropped the guy who attacked me by fighting in an 'ungentlemanly manner' -
he'd expected to trash the nerd pretty easily, and if I do fight i fight to
win. The second event was when someone had a go at me in the
playground/school yard and attacked me. Fortunately, I was over 6 foot, and
he was shorter so I held him off and he looked very stupid. The sad thing
is that it ended up in violence to solve the problem. But I suspect that
there are many things that happen which the teachers either don't know,
can't prove or can't act on.

I don't think there's an ObTrav to this.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #506
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 507



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
BITS re: Patches
Re: Subject Change Request
It's all in the spin...was Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
[OT] Funny you should say that... (was Re: RPG Paranoia)
FYI - From USENET/Traveller for Sale
GT Maintenance Crew Requirements
Re: Government Type-6
Re: Trojan Reaches vs. Iakr (Foreven) Sector
taxes in the Imperium
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: More about Imperial taxes
Re: Imperial Taxation, see EU
Re: GTL9 Modules: a request
Re: OT: Software Question 
Re: Apologies. 
Origin of the term "Ward Room"
Re: Patches
nasty cross over idea...
Flashes (was: Re: Patches)
Re: Problem-solving

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:30:50 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 12:57 AM 4/27/99 +0300, you wrote:
>I have just finished last week a scenario like that. I was asked to start
>(or really restart) a gaming club at a local high school. As I was one of
>the people first involved in such a club when I was at that very same
>school (not that many years ago (<10?)) I decided to try it. Because of the
>concept of GM:ing for total beginners, and because I had been inspired by
>the G:T, I decided to have a go at G:T. I made an adventure starring GTL 6
>farmers in a remote village on a planet that gets visited by Varg ihatei

Errr... do you mean Aslan ihatei?

>invaders. Because the characters were uneducated and backward, I didn't
>have to explain a lot of the world before the game started.


          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:29:53 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS re: Patches

Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com> wrote:

>SJ Games is looking into makeing some patches...the embroidered kind, not
>the rubber kind you stick on bicycle tires. Marc thinks Traveller patches
>are a good idea, and has given his OK, and we'd like to know what sort of
>subject matter the Traveller audience is interested in.

BITS has a *limited* number of promotional patches left which we produced
for GenCon UK for use by the stall personnel. Contact Andy Lilly at
bits@bits.org.uk for more details. I will try and get some images on the
website this week if anyone is interested.

Dom (BITS webmaster)


- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:34:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:>Where I live for example (Las Vegas); one high
school (Green
>Valley High) has already resorted to confiscating black trenchcoats, and
>banning the wearing of black "Goth" clothing. It hits home and I DON'T like
>it. It's only a small stretch for these people to extend this to the computer
>wargame Doom, and from there to all wargames, like Traveller.

Strange - in the UK, when the Dunblane attack happened we *banned*
handguns, not the jeans or jacket the murderer was wearing.

ObTrav: Different cultures respond differently to the same problem. The
impact of the response may be more or less effective.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:43:01 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: It's all in the spin...was Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> types:
>> From: AveNelso@aol.com
>>         This is the policy at the school where I teach, and I find it 
>> appalling.   To demand that someone not defend himself when attacked is the
>> height of oatmeal-headedness.
>I suppose that all children who might be targetted should learn aikido. 
>"But, Mr. Principal, I didn't defend myself.  He attacked me and I got
>out of the way.  Then he fell down because he wasn't controlling his
>energy and direction.  Then he kept attacking and I kept getting out of
>the way and he kept falling down until he was exhausted."  Not many
>teenagers could get to that level of aikido quickly enough,
>unfortunately.  

     As one Aikidoist put it, "I hit him with the biggest thing I could
find, the ground."

Not all Aikido is "Hearts and Flowers."  Some ryu can be pretty darn rough
and tumble.
The trick is to spin the former to the school board, then teach the latter. :-)


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:46:18 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> types:
> "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>In Stand on Zanzibar, John Brunner writes of a phenomenon known as
>>"mucking", in which a mucker goes amok and starts killing everyone
>>around.  It happens all the time.  It's caused by becoming too stressed
>>out by the overcrowding and other tensions of life in his vision of the
>>late 20th century.
>cf 2000AD's Judge Dredd and the tendancy for citizen's to crack and go
>Futsie (Future Shock....) and kill everyone around.

   I remember reading in college about experiments with population density
in rats.  Once the rats start getting packed in really tight, random
violence breaks out.  
   Ob Trav:  High Pop worlds with densely packed tower cities.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:08:53 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: [OT] Funny you should say that... (was Re: RPG Paranoia)

> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:13:08 +0000
> From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia...
> 
> >... Actually we need a better general public, what we have belong
> >in South Park!
> 
> That is becoming all to true with to much of the general public.
> 
> PS: I HATE South Park!

You do realize that Fairplay, Colorado (the real-world model for South
Park) is less than an hour from Littleton?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:17:39 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: FYI - From USENET/Traveller for Sale

This was on USENET. Good hunting....
...

Subject: TRAVELLER for sale
From: scarab1@pacbell.net
Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 01:14 EDT
Message-id: <3723F64C.3539@pacbell.net>

I have the following items for sale (in no particular order):

CLASSIC TRAVELLER

The Traveller Book (Hardbound, no slip cover) G  $10
JTAS #9 VG  $5
Understanding Traveller G  $3
Best of JTAS #1  G-VG  $5
Double Adventure #1, Shadows/Annic Nova  VG  $5
Double Adventure #2, Mission on Mithril/Across the Bright Face  VG  $5
Double Adventure #5, The Horde/Chamax Plague  G  $5
Double Adventure #6, Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest  VG  $6
The Undersea Environment  VG  $7
Far Traveller #1  F  $10
High Passage #3  F  $10
Fate of the Sky Raiders  G  $10
Trail of the Sky Raiders  VG  $10
Adventure #5, Trillion Credit Squadron P (water damaged, still usable) 
$5
The Adjutant #3, Track Laying  G (cover is sun discolored, tho')  $4
Supplement #4, Citizens of the Imperium  F  $5
Book 6, Scouts  P (but intact)  $2
Supplement #1, 1001 Characters  VG  $4
Adventure 11, Murder on Arcturus Station  VG (cover corners creased)  
$5

MEGA TRAVELLER

Kafer Dawn  VG (out of MT Boxed)  $3
Rebellion Sourcebook  VG  $5
Referees Compaion  VG  $5
Referee's Manual  VG  $5
MT Boxed Set (Player's Manual, Referee's Manual & map only)  Box F, 
Insides VG  $10
Rebellion  F  $6
Knightfall  VG  $10


THE NEW ERA

Traveller The New Era  VG  $7
Survival Margin  VG  $5


MAGAZINES  (All Magazines VG-F conditions)

SpaceGamer #44  $3
Challenge Magazine #27  $3
Challenge Magazine #40  $3
Challenge Magazine #29  $3

Postage is extra.  Payment by Check or Money Order.  Questions or 
interest, please email me.

Thanks for looking,

Nikki
scarab1@pacbell.net


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:27:29 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements

Thomas Schoene wrote
>
>Based on the maintenance requirement in Far Trader, I calculate that a MCr
>1035 spinal PAW should require 4.8*1035/SQRT(1035) maintenance man-hours
>per day ...GT has somehow linearized the crew requirements
> for modules that should have a square-root
>term, but I don't follow how it was done. I saw your discussion with Chris
>Thrash on Pyramid, but I didn't understand it very well. Perhaps, one or
>both of you would care to enlighten me.

Chris Thrash wrote
>I've been trying to figure this out myself. The maintenance rules in FT
>were a start, but I frankly didn't look at what was required on a
>per-module basis until just recently.

>Working backwards from the crew requirements per module for maneuver drives
>and jump drives, it appears that GT neglects to take the square root that
>appears in VE2  (p. 75). This results in an Engineer (Mechanic, in GT
>terms) requirement that is linear with power for a given TL -- necessary in
>a modular design system like GT's -- and is an implied official rules
>variant for the Traveller setting.

>Maintenance man-hours are based on the total purchase price of the ship. If
>you try to figure out the requirement component-by-component, you will get
>a faulty answer (as I'm sure you realize) because the results are not
>linear. Moreover, VE2 (p. 75 again) doesn't directly require maintenance
>personnel in the crew for anything other than propulsion and lift systems.

>I agree that one crewman (a Gunner) per spinal weapon isn't a very faithful
>rendering of HG and others. Earlier I tried the same method you did, Tom,
>with the same results. Requiring other large, power-using systems (like bay
>and spinal weaponry) to have maintenance crews on the same basis as drives
>might be a more reasonable extension of the rules for the Traveller
>universe. For example, a TL10 spinal mount (p. GT157), which includes a
>18983.3 MW power plant slice, would require 76 maintenance crew (about 1/20
>spaces). The TL12 meson spinal mount would require 19 (~1/80).

>This will clearly have to be a topic of discussion for GT: Starships.

I would say that this DOES NOT follow contemporary wet navy practices.
Engineering and hotel systems (potable water, waste systems, lights) require
a much higher level of regular maintenance than weapon systems.  This is
reflected in manning requirements for Navy ships.  Typically a ship requires
a large engineering crew, approximately 100-300 trained individuals on a
destroyer or cruiser. The same ship might have perhaps a dozen weapon
systems specialist. Most Combat Systems specialist work not on the weapons
themselves but on the sensor systems that the weapons require. Most
munitions, missiles, etc. require no shipboard maintenance at all. Indeed,
many weapons CAN NOT be worked on by ship's force, but must be offloaded to
a shore facility for repair.

If Imperial systems are in any way similar then the manpower requirements
are right in line.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:37:06 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Government Type-6

At 09:19 AM 4/26/1999 -0700, Derek Stanley wrote:

>> My specific problem is Pretoria (0406 - Pretoria/Deneb) which in 1120 has a
>> government type 6 with a population of 7 billion and no other system listed
>> as coloniser/owner.  Who's in control ?
>
>According to the TNE Regency Sourcebook as of 1120.
>
>Pretoria    0406   B656967-C   N   Hi Cp Mr     720  DD  G5 IV
>
>Okay, population over a billion, captive/colony government, moderate 
>law.  The thing you want to look at here is the Trade codes.
>
>Hi - Hi Population
>Cp - Subsector Captial
>Mr - Military Rule...   <--This is the important one.
>
>Thus being a Subsector Capital and under Military Rule, we can assume that 
>Pretoria is likely on giant Military camp under the direct control of Deneb.

According to Travellers' Digest #1, "Pretoria is currently under Imperial 
Naval Rule as a result of the Rachelean Revolts of 1010 and 1011."

Of the Rachelean Revolts, TD#1 says, "(1010-1011) Major uprising on 
Pretoria/Pretoria, fomented by the Rachele Society, resulting in martial 
law under the Imperial Navy since that time.  The Imperium as a rule does 
not interfere with local politics, but their intervention was forced when a 
scout base on Saki/Pretoria (0306) was destroyed by nuclear weapons."

The Rachele Society was a secret Vilani supremecist group founded on 
Pretoria by Zid Rachele in 992.  In 1010, they attempted to takeover the 
Pretorian government, and in a failed attempt at nuclear blackmail, killed 
26,000 persons (including 1900 of their own commandos) on Saki.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
     and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                         -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:53:10 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Trojan Reaches vs. Iakr (Foreven) Sector

At 12:33 PM 4/25/1999 -0700, Paul wrote:
>I would personally ONLY be interested in areas "Behind The Claw".  The Deneb
>Sector is a place I know little about.  What info from the Regency
>Sourcebook could be reprinted?   Also, who owns the rights to the
>Travellers' Digest Trojan Reach articles?  Could they be recycled into a
>GURPS suplement or Pyramid articles?
>
>I understand that the Foreven Sector (Left/Spinward of the Spinward Marches)
>was originally setup as "reserved for GMs".  I'd personally like to see the
>Foreven subsectors that border the Spinward Marches heavily detailed by
>members of this list.
I believe that Mike Jackson originally wrote most of the information on the 
Trojan Reaches in his fanzine "Third Imperium".  He published 11 issues, 
covering 1 subsector in each issue.  I believe that he went to work for 
DGP, so I don't know if he sold them the rights or what, but a lot of what 
was published in TD was based on his work.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:44:12 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: taxes in the Imperium

> From: AveNelso@aol.com

>         I also seem to remeber seeing somewhere that the Imperium taxes the
> worlds and not individuals, which makes it easier to collect on their level
> and keeps the Imperial Fiscus out of people's daily lives.

You've seen it here on the TML many times.  (It's a view that I espouse,
and I think several others also.)  Remember that canon doesn't address
it at all.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:51:18 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
> the G:T, I decided to have a go at G:T. I made an adventure starring GTL 6
> farmers in a remote village on a planet that gets visited by Varg ihatei
> invaders. Because the characters were uneducated and backward, I didn't
> have to explain a lot of the world before the game started.

Vargr ihatei!  That's a scary thought.  As if Aslan ihatei weren't bad
enough.  I can see it happening, however.  Some Vargr travelling through
the Spinward Marches meets or even learns about Aslan ihatei, and takes
the idea back to the Vargr Extents.  Land hunger becomes a great
motivator for expansion and the Vargr are on the warpath again!


- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:00:44 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: More about Imperial taxes

At 02:36 PM 4/26/1999 -0400, Gary wrote:
>>From MT Ref's Companion, it looks like Instellarms doesn't have any shares
>belonging to the Imperial family, though "noble families" have 8 percent.
>The megacorps all are owned, at least in part, by each other and since the
>Emperor has a piece of the pie in every other megacorp, he would indirectly
>have it with Instellararms, too, wouldn't he?
>
>Course, MT is reknown for its editing difficulties and that could be one of
>em (and/or) whatever the source is, as IIRC, Ref's Companion is a compliation.
That is also what the original Supplement 8: Library Data (A-M) says , 
which is probably where RC got it's data.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 02:01:34 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Imperial Taxation, see EU

At 10:31 26.04.99 -0500, you wrote:

>
>	Does anyone have a canonical reference for this?  We were arguing about
it in the 
>GT:Starports playtest.  It has always been my impression that #3 & #4 were
correct, but the 
>playtest draft has #2, income taxes.
I think income tax wont be good. The imperium rules the stars, the worlds
rule themselves.
IMTU, this includes taxation. So I would also go for the percentage of GWP.
Perhaps some other tariffs could be imposed, like tariffs for trade outside
the imperium 
(Inter-World tariffs being the affair of the worlds again).

A bit like the EU, really. The EU is financed by its member states, not
directly by the population. They pay taxes to their individual countries,
while they pay the EU.
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 00:19:55 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: GTL9 Modules: a request

>At 09:22 PM 4/25/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>BTW, GTL9 military ships work a lot better with fusion rockets and fission
>>power plants.
>
>Did you take the weight/volume of the water for the Fusion Rocket into
>account?  As far as I can tell, the reaction mass for a VE2 fusion rocket
>at GTL9 is _huge_, many times greater than the mass of the ship.  The
>rocket requires .02 Gallons of water per hour per pound  of thrust, which
>works out to .17lbs of water per hour per lb of thrust.

Yup, 1.66 dtons per module per hour.  However, I didn't provide enough fuel
for hours of acceleration at high-G.  Instead, I assumed that GTL9 space
tactics would call for leisurely transits with lots of high-G maneuvers at
the end.

>If you have enough reaction mass for 40-60 hours at 1G (that figure is from
>FF&S2) that works out to 6.8-10.2 lbs of reaction mass per pound of ship!
>so your ship will have to be nearly 90% reaction mass....  And that's for a
>freighter.  FF&S2 says that a military ship should have more....

Yeah, but the exhaust isn't nice to be around. I'm currently assuming that
(a) only military ships use fusion rockets, and (b) almost all freighters
are low-G orbit-orbit ships. At GTL9 you can't make a decent jump freighter
with even 1G acceleration.

>What's really needed is a drive that uses very little reaction mass that is
>accelerated very fast (like the HePlar)... Unfortunately, there isn't one
>in VE2 that is capable of 1G+ acceleration (Optimized Fusion uses much less
>mass, but weighs 3000lbs per lb of thrust, limiting you to at most .0003G...)

Well, HEPlar was a hand-wave to get away from reactionless thrusters. I
seem to remember that one of the physics blokes worked out that it is too
efficient for the discharge energy, or something like that.

The easiest solution is to decide that GTL9 reactionless thrusters are the
early models, and are superceded by the middle and late parts of the GTL
(corresponding to TL10 and 11).  As I've said before, cramming three
Traveller tech levels into one GURPS tech level requires some changes to
GURPS, or to Traveller. As a chap who's played Traveller since it was frst
published, I know what I'm changing...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:30:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Software Question 

> At 08:21 PM 4/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >Anybody know of a software program that will convert a PostScript file to a 
> >GIF that works under Linux?
> 
> Ghostscript (the de fact standard Linux PS program) can output to a tiff
> file.  Those are easily converted to gif by any number of programs.

xv will do it, too, but it only creates an image the size of your desktop, and if the resolution is too low to read the print, you're stuck with it.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:35:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Apologies. 

> Hope this doesn't attach all the crap (pardon my French) that the last one
> did.  If it does I apologize.
> 
> Just DL's Internet Explorer 5 and am playing with it, I forgot about the
> fact that Microsquish loves sending out E-Mail in HTML format.

That's a *FEATURE*, not a *bug*.  M$ is trying to get HTML email as a 
standard, and to hell with the rest of us dinosaurs who prefer straight text.

<g, d, & r>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:38:57 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Origin of the term "Ward Room"

Ok team... what is the origin of the term "Ward Room" and what is it used
for?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:41:58 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Patches

Dear Folks -

Good candidates for patches are:

The classic 4518th Lift Infantry Regiment

>Marine, Navy, &  Army units,

How about the Imperial Sunburst in red (IISS), yellow (Navy), and maroon
(Marines)?

Is the Thinking Cap Company still around (they were bought out by someone)?
What I'd like to see is a Traveller patch _on a cap_ - now that's something
I would wear with pride!

On the topis of T-Shirts - I have to agree with someone who said it would
be nice to see some more imaginative designs - I'm after a full-colour
Jesse Scout Ship pic! Or maybe a Beowulf Free Trader on the front, with the
LBB distress call on the back!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:44:04 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: nasty cross over idea...

I picked up a copy of GURPS:Mage today (Mage is the only White Wolf eye to
really catch my interest).

A hearty band of Traveller adventurers are looking for a ship to serve on.
In the Downport is a ship owner looking for a crew.  In addition to being
the Owner Aboard, he's the Chief Engineer.  He's very protective of his
Jump Engines.  

He's also a Son of Ether Mage!  (For those who don't know Mage, for the
Sons of Ether, think a blend of Doc Savage, Victor Frankenstein & Doctor
Who, with Thomas Dolby's "Weird Science" as a theme song).

The Jump Drive is also a Trans-Time/Dimensional drive.  Kind of a TARDIS
with an Occilation Overthruster.  

The odds of me actually pulling this off are slim, but I like the idea anyway.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend 
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY 
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting. 
              http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:56:23 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Flashes (was: Re: Patches)

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> Good candidates for patches are:
> 
> The classic 4518th Lift Infantry Regiment

Agreed.
> 
> >Marine, Navy, &  Army units.

Also agreed.  I would use FFW to determine regiments and divisions so
honored.
> 
Just a question for those on the TML who care about such things:

Do jump troop units wear anything related to beret flashes, or the oval
flash worn by US Army paratroopers beneath their jump wings?

If so, then flashes pertaining to jump troop units would be welcomed (by
me, anyway).  Metal insignia for jump troops, and cloisanne pins as
distinctive unit insignia (a.k.a. unit crests), would also be welcome.

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:05:23 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Problem-solving

Todd A. Zircher wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> > Science fiction is, in a lot of ways, about solving problems
> > through technological advance (or at least dealing with
> > problems that technological advance causes). An Imperial
> > fleet with laser-detonation warheads can do little to reduce
> > the suffering alienated youths, nor deter them from taking
> > drastic and tragic actions. So what technology can the
> > Imperium bring to bear on this problem?
> 
> What do kids crave more than anything?  Attention.  Issue each
> child a cyber-desk.  This portable computer contains all the
> books and resources most students need.  The most important
> thing in it is a powerful mentor program that helps the student
> overcome their weaknesses and is always there to listen and
> give advice.  Linked into the mentor is psychological monitoring
> software with routines that talk to the parents about issues
> that are important to their children.
> 
>   "Mrs Taki?  This is Albert, Joey's mentor.  Joey scored
>    93% on today's spelling exam.  I think it would be grand
>    if you let him know that was a job well done."
> 
It would seem, sir, that you have arrived at the solution postulated in
_Ender's Game_, by Orson Scott Card.  The Fantasy Game in _Ender's Game_
was designed as a psychological diagnostic tool (among other things).

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #507
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 508



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Patches
Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
Re: Origin of the term "Ward Room"
FYI - USENET Traveller sale..
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Planet Building
re: GT Maintenance crews
Re: Flashes (was: Re: Patches)
Re: Patches 
Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements
Re: Origin of the term "Ward Room"
1188th? (was: Re: Patches)
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
MISC: ShoreCon '99
Re: Subject Change Request
#Traveller Undernet
Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements
Re: 1188th? (was: Re: Patches) 
Re: Patches
Re: A-10 myth busting
different cultures
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Jesse DeGraff.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:36:11 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Patches

At 02:48 PM 4/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
>I'd also buy:
>
>4518th Lift Infantry
>Free Trader Beowulf
>Scout service patches, for example from World Builder's Handbook
>(and probably anything else you put on the market)


	Arrival: Vengeance
	1188th (Aces and Eights)
	Kinunir

	and (forlorn hope) a few from the TNE era ... "to comrades long
absent ..."
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:17:02 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements

One question about GT maintenance requirements - aren't they awfully large
for small
ships? I'm thinking in particular of the Type S, which canonically can be
operated by one person
(one tired, stressed person, admittedly) but which now requires 24 man-hours
of maintenance
per day.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:18:04 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Origin of the term "Ward Room"

>Ok team... what is the origin of the term "Ward Room" and what is it used
>for?

Think of it as a Lounge/Dining room for the O's.  I used to know where the
term came from, but it's lost in the mists of time.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:20:10 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: FYI - USENET Traveller sale..

this was on USENET....Including Sky Raiders... 

.....

I have the following items for sale (in no particular order):

CLASSIC TRAVELLER

The Traveller Book (Hardbound, no slip cover) G  $10
JTAS #9 VG  $5
Understanding Traveller G  $3
Best of JTAS #1  G-VG  $5
Double Adventure #1, Shadows/Annic Nova  VG  $5
Double Adventure #2, Mission on Mithril/Across the Bright Face  VG  $5
Double Adventure #5, The Horde/Chamax Plague  G  $5
Double Adventure #6, Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest  VG  $6
The Undersea Environment  VG  $7
Far Traveller #1  F  $10
High Passage #3  F  $10
Fate of the Sky Raiders  G  $10
Trail of the Sky Raiders  VG  $10
Adventure #5, Trillion Credit Squadron P (water damaged, still usable) 
$5
The Adjutant #3, Track Laying  G (cover is sun discolored, tho')  $4
Supplement #4, Citizens of the Imperium  F  $5
Book 6, Scouts  P (but intact)  $2
Supplement #1, 1001 Characters  VG  $4
Adventure 11, Murder on Arcturus Station  VG (cover corners creased)  
$5

MEGA TRAVELLER

Kafer Dawn  VG (out of MT Boxed)  $3
Rebellion Sourcebook  VG  $5
Referees Compaion  VG  $5
Referee's Manual  VG  $5
MT Boxed Set (Player's Manual, Referee's Manual & map only)  Box F, 
Insides VG  $10
Rebellion  F  $6
Knightfall  VG  $10


THE NEW ERA

Traveller The New Era  VG  $7
Survival Margin  VG  $5


MAGAZINES  (All Magazines VG-F conditions)

SpaceGamer #44  $3
Challenge Magazine #27  $3
Challenge Magazine #40  $3
Challenge Magazine #29  $3

Postage is extra.  Payment by Check or Money Order.  Questions or 
interest, please email me.

Thanks for looking,

Nikki
scarab1@pacbell.net


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 03:09:34 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 26 April 1999 22:19
Subject: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia


>jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin) wrote:
>>On top of that, "Dungeons and Dragons" and "D&D" are a good way
>>to press one of the hot buttons of the so-called "religious
>>right".  One of the books had to be renamed - and practically
>>rewritten - to placate them; they were going on and on about
>>"devil worship" because of the title of the book and the names of
>>the demons whose stats were given.  The media remembers that, and
>>sensationalism sells.
>
>Deities and Demigods ;-) ?
>
>There again, they released a 'fiends' style supplement for the
ringbound
>Monstrous compendium some time later.
>
>Dom
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>I'm sorry if this is late in the discussion.  I find it amazing that
RPGs and bands like M Manson are blamed for the outrage.  the fact
that the USA is a gun culture and that they were into Nazism seems
irrelevant to the media.   If I've gonna hit you and I've got a gun
I'll shoot you, thats the attitude amongst people today.  Give a nazi
a gun and they'll shoot someone, hopefully themselves.

"Remember the Magic" Mikey Dredd Technopagan.
maj@akira.swinternet.co.uk
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:20:14 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Planet Building

Okay, this is a little off topic, but....
Is anyone here familiar with 2300 AD?
I can't figure out the planet/system building rules.
Is there a Traveller program/spreadsheet that will do this in terms close
those of 2300?
Anyone want to build one for 2300?

TV
PS. No snickering please.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:27:08 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: GT Maintenance crews

>I would say that this DOES NOT follow contemporary wet navy practices.
>Engineering and hotel systems (potable water, waste systems, lights)
require
>a much higher level of regular maintenance than weapon systems.  This is
>reflected in manning requirements for Navy ships.  Typically a ship
requires
>a large engineering crew, approximately 100-300 trained individuals on a
>destroyer or cruiser. The same ship might have perhaps a dozen weapon
>systems specialist. Most Combat Systems specialist work not on the weapons
>themselves but on the sensor systems that the weapons require. Most
>munitions, missiles, etc. require no shipboard maintenance at all. Indeed,
>many weapons CAN NOT be worked on by ship's force, but must be offloaded to
>a shore facility for repair.

This can't be completely the case; large merchant ships of similar tonnage
to
naval ships get by with much smaller crews in spite of having presumably
similar
engineering systems. And if a large fraction of the crew's efforts go into
"hotel" systems
that's just plain weird - if 90% of your crew is maintaining your toilets,
and 90% of your
toilets are there becuase you have such a large crew, there's something
wrong. I know
Navy ships have large crews ("low automation", in Traveller terms) to
improve damage
control capabilities, but presumably a lot of the crew must somehow be
related to the
military mission - sensor maintenance, as you say, and maintenance of
systems related
to sensors and weapons, and helos, etc.

Of course, a modern warship doesn't spend much money on the actual weapons
either -
VL tubes are cheap, so are dinky little 5" guns. It's the sensors and the
ordinance that drive
up the price. My interpretation of the GT rules (which may be wrong) is that
ordinance doesn't
count in the price for maintenance, so maybe the GT rules would produce a
similar
result - most of the crew busy maintaining the engines and sensors - if used
to design a
late-TL-7 surface warship.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:25:54 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Flashes (was: Re: Patches)

- ----------
> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

> Just a question for those on the TML who care about such things:
> 
> Do jump troop units wear anything related to beret flashes, or the oval
> flash worn by US Army paratroopers beneath their jump wings?

"Uniforms of the Terran Occupation Force", _Travellers Digest_ #14 mentions
jump wings but notes that Marines leave a blank spot where they should be
worn (except in dress uniforms), because all Marines are jump-qualified,
while only elite Army troops are so trained.  They also mention the
unofficial combat drop slash, worn at the back of the collar (a narrow
strip of black on field uniforms, scarlet on the maroon dress uniform.)  

It's a good article, although the illustrations must be of Miles Vorskogian
as a Marine.  The model is 5 foot nothing (150 cm for the metric crowd, the
Brits will have out work out "hands" on their own.)

> If so, then flashes pertaining to jump troop units would be welcomed (by
> me, anyway).  Metal insignia for jump troops, and cloisanne pins as
> distinctive unit insignia (a.k.a. unit crests), would also be welcome.

Sadly, there's no description of the jump badge, although the Marine crest
is descried in detail.

Of course, these may be off limits due to the DGP situation.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:29:06 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Patches 

> 	Arrival: Vengeance
> 	1188th (Aces and Eights)

Great lil adventure nugget.  Anybody up for some Sergeant Simeon?

> 	Kinunir

This would be cool too.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:38:04 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements

- ----------
> From: Bruce Macintosh <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
> Date: Monday, 26 April, 1999 10:17 PM
> 
> One question about GT maintenance requirements - aren't they awfully
large
> for small
> ships? I'm thinking in particular of the Type S, which canonically can be
> operated by one person
> (one tired, stressed person, admittedly) but which now requires 24
man-hours
> of maintenance
> per day.

The idea is that maintenance can be deferred at the risk of breakdowns. 
When that solo scout ship reaches port, he's going to need some time to put
things back in working order.  I'd argue that maintenance doesn't accrue as
the ship sits on planet, so you can catch up in a week or so, or a few days
with help.

(Why, yes, now that you mention it, the air scrubber is always the first
thing to break. :-)

OTOH, the small ships are a bit more hard-pressed than large ones.  You
might halve the requirement at less than 200 tons or some such arbitrary
level.  You could also eliminate the cost of armor from that calculation;
this is a factor in military vessels where thick armor is expensive but
should not be maintenance intensive. 

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:40:34 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Origin of the term "Ward Room"

- ----------
> From: Paul Schirf <pc@PerkWorks.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Origin of the term "Ward Room"
> Date: Monday, 26 April, 1999 8:38 PM
> 
> Ok team... what is the origin of the term "Ward Room" and what is it used
> for?

Oh, this one is a bit harder, I think.

Definition first: the wardroom (one word) is the cabin aboard a ship where
the officers eat and socialize.  By extension, the term can sometimes also
be applied to the junior officers aboard a ship.  

The origin is a bit more confused.  It dates back to at least the 1690s,
when it was used to refer to a room used by "volunteers and land officers
[marines]"  Later, it came to be used by the junior commissioned officers
(i.e. lieutenants) and senior warrant officers (surgeon, master, purser,
chaplain, etc.) My source suggests it probably comes from very early use as
a room for the watch officers, although it might also have been a
store-room for valuables taken from prize ships.

Source: Brian Lavery's _Arming and Fitting of British Ships of War:
1600-1815

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:45:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: 1188th? (was: Re: Patches)

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
<<snip patch request info, except for:>>

>         1188th (Aces and Eights)

Who, pray tell, are the 1188th?  I ask mainly because my referee has
placed my character in command of the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump)
(Commando), and I would like to know whether the 1188th is a sister
regiment.

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:45:42 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, April 26, 1999 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia


>I'm sorry if this is late in the discussion.  I find it amazing that
>RPGs and bands like M Manson are blamed for the outrage.  the fact
>that the USA is a gun culture and that they were into Nazism seems
>irrelevant to the media.   If I've gonna hit you and I've got a gun
>I'll shoot you, thats the attitude amongst people today.  Give a nazi
>a gun and they'll shoot someone, hopefully themselves.


No, the nazi angle has been downplayed by the media quite a bit in the last
few days, for a few very good reasons. Klebold was of Jewish descent. Harris
had moved to Littleton from another town. In the old town his two best
friends were african and asian-American. One of the former members of the
Trenchcoat Mafia (Alejandra Marx) was hispanic.

My own personal suspicion is that they were fascinated by Hitler to a large
extent. Even some well-adjusted academics are fascinated by Hitler. However,
a being enamored by the nazi regime and being a nazi are two entirely
different things. Of course, I have no proof on that one.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:43:59 -0400
From: Tal Meta <talmeta@cybercomm.net>
Subject: MISC: ShoreCon '99

Greetings.

I'm the RPG coordinator for ShoreCon '99, which will be held on
September 9-12 1999 at the Hilton in Cherry Hill, NJ. In that capacity,
I'm looking for GMs (and players, too) for RPG events at the convention. 

The deadline for event submissions is June 1st, and by visiting our
website at <http://gameconventions.com/ShoreCon> you can find complete
information on hotel accomodations, online GM registration (now
guaranteed to work!), and even get on the mailing list to have our
pre-registration book sent directly to you. If you are interested in
GMing an event, the time to sign up is now! 

This year ShoreCon will will be having several special guests, including
Peter Adkison (President and CEO of WotC/TSR), Steve Jackson (President
of Steve Jackson Games) and Jolly Blackburn (creator of Knights of the
Dinner Table)! 

We'll also be boasting Target Games' 1st Annual Games Expo, several
LARPs (Vampire, Star Wars, and Toon!), as well as a large selection of
RPGs, CCGs, Miniature events and Network Gaming!

Thanx for your time...

- -- 
talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic & Dilettante
ICQ - 12594453
AIM - talmeta1
Homepage - <http://members.xoom.com/talmeta>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:43:50 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

Dear Folks -

Seth replied to Tommy thus:
>>  << Chill, Chill Seth. Don't get to upset >>

>I consider myself "chilled"...:-)
>Seth

Ah, that'll be from all that LH2 that's been going around recently... <GDR>

;-)
- - Hyphen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:39:51 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: #Traveller Undernet

Greetings!

Just wanted to pop in and remind any interested parties that we are still
searching for a name for our virtual TAS lounge.  We're up to twenty
entries and I am currently exploring voting options. I'm counting on
everyone's creativity to come up with the best possible name for the place,
so I hope that I get a lot of last minute entries, either on channel or via
email.

Don't forget TravJeopardy on the 28th and I just added a date to discuss
Online Traveller Resources on the first Wednesday in May.

Drop by the website for all the up to date information!

http://home.att.net/~websuz/

Cheers!

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:56:45 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements

>Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:27:29 -0400
>From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
>Subject: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements
>
>>Requiring other large, power-using systems (like bay
>>and spinal weaponry) to have maintenance crews on the same basis as drives
>>might be a more reasonable extension of the rules for the Traveller
>>universe.
>
>I would say that this DOES NOT follow contemporary wet navy practices.
>Engineering and hotel systems (potable water, waste systems, lights) require
>a much higher level of regular maintenance than weapon systems. 
>
>If Imperial systems are in any way similar then the manpower requirements
>are right in line.

Not really: most of the engineers on a contemporary vessel work on the
power plant (fission or diesel) itself and its related systems; relatively
few are required to maintain the gears and screws. In the VE2 rule *not
one* of the required engineers is there for the power plant (per se). This
seems unreasonable to me on the face of it.

Since GT weapons modules by definition include a "slice" of power plant to
support them, it does not seems unlikely that they require an equal amount
of attention from the engineering crew as a similarly-constructed
reactionless thruster or jump drive. All are essentially solid-state
devices with just a few moving parts (so far as I can tell, anyway).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:03:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: 1188th? (was: Re: Patches) 

> David J. Golden wrote:
> > 
> <<snip patch request info, except for:>>
> 
> >         1188th (Aces and Eights)
> 
> Who, pray tell, are the 1188th?  I ask mainly because my referee has
> placed my character in command of the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump)
> (Commando), and I would like to know whether the 1188th is a sister
> regiment.

The 1188th Lift Infantry Regiment ceased to exist as a unit after a biowar attack on them by their 'allies' on Malefolge (in the Foreven Sector??)  Its quarterly payroll, MCr 20 in *cash*, had just been deliverd to them the day before, and was not recovred when their position was overrun by local troops.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:56:05 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Patches

Dear Folks -

I've ranked votes thus far and weighted them (first choice = 10 pts, second
= 5 pts, third = 2 pts, other = 1 pt). This is probably not an accurate way
of determining rankings, but I'm not a statistician.  ;-)

Number of voters: 19

Price:    US$5 (but most seem OK with US$10 providing the quality is
excellent)

Rankings:

     1.   Imperial Sunburst shoulder/cap patches*
     2.   IISS Service shoulder patch
     3.   Classic Traveller logo **
     4.   The 4518th Lift Infantry Regiment, Duke of Regina's Own
Huscarles, 'Strike From Space' logo ***
     5.   Free Trader  Beowulf crew shoulder patch
     6.   Other IISS "department" logos

* All colour variants requested, with a slight weighting towards
red-on-black, then yellow-on-black.
** Red lettering on black, bordered in red. So far, 4 requests for "no
company-specific motifs".
*** Everyone loves a classic...

...but the voting proves that everyone loves the Scouts. ;-)

Following the "big five" are badges from "other Imperial services", with
the Marines being the most popular. There are three requests in for caps,
and a couple suggesting "field" and "dress" versions.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:56:41 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting

Dear Folks -

Todd's .sig is:
>  ex-USAF Aircraft Specialist Systems Specialist,
>  A-10A Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II

I am constantly amazed at the breadth and depth of experience on this list.
At the drop of a hat, we can call up detailed RW analyses from weapons
experts, fusion engineers, particle physicists, economists, lawyers,
shipbuilders, medicos, and more.

Do Marc, Loren, and SJG fully realise the value of this resource they have?
(They probably do!)

/humour on/
I have only one gripe - why can't we, together, build a Free Trader??  ;-)
/humour off/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:14:28 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: different cultures

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

> Strange - in the UK, when the Dunblane attack happened we *banned*
> handguns, not the jeans or jacket the murderer was wearing.

Here's a good example of why the American colonies felt that they had to
become independent of Britain.  We just stopped being able to understand
one another.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:27:35 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

>The variables that led to the shooting in Columbine HS are probably
>numerous, but a few of the more obvious ones are:
>
>1) Killers were alienated youths, subject to ridicule by their peers during
>a time in their lives that peer pressure is at it's strongest (at least for
>most humans in modern American society).
>
>2) Killers gained access to firearms and information necessary to construct
>explosive devices.

The question arises, how did the kids get access to those kinds of firearms?
Of course, you can practically get AK-47s out of coin-operated vending
machines
in most of the USA. My apologies in advance to the American members on this
mailing list, but if these kids of weapons were restricted to begin with,
the tragedy could have been averted. I saw a list of the weapons they had --
most of which are, in Canada, illegal for a private citizen to own. 

>Where this subject affects this list most is in the third variable above.
>It has been suggested that game-playing is an instrumental factor in
>causing such incidents as that which occured at this unfortunate Colorado
>high school.

Sorry if this gets too far OT, but why isn't there more attention being
paid to your variable #2?


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:01:32 PDT
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Jesse DeGraff.

As far as I can tell, he is offline for now.
I have several addresses for him, work and home, and I'm getting no 
reply.
I know his home ISP was having real serious issues involving down 
time...

Roger


>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
>To: Traveller-digest <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Subject: Jesse DeGraff.
>Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:28:25 -0700
>
>Hey Jesse.
>
>How come I seem to have no end of problems in trying to get a hold of
>you lately?
>
>Most of your mail seems to simply bounce back to me.
>
>Derek Stanley
>
>
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #508
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 509



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jesse DeGraff.
Re: Jesse DeGraff. 
Re: 1188th? (was: Re: Patches)
Re: nasty cross over idea...
Re: 1188th? (was: Re: Patches) 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: taxes in the Imperium...
Re: Flashes (was: Re: Patches)
Re: A-10 myth busting...
Re: Planet Building
Avenger-Class Patrol Frigate
Re: different cultures
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Imperial Tax Base
Background hook: New starport
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Subject Change Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:04:23 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Jesse DeGraff.

Great.
I am waiting for a very important reply and his isp crashes.
My life is always like this :)
TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:03:46 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Jesse DeGraff. 

> Great.
> I am waiting for a very important reply and his isp crashes.
> My life is always like this :)

Been there, done that.  <sigh>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:16:40 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 1188th? (was: Re: Patches)

At 09:45 PM 4/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
>David J. Golden wrote:
>> 
><<snip patch request info, except for:>>
>
>>         1188th (Aces and Eights)
>
>Who, pray tell, are the 1188th?  I ask mainly because my referee has
>placed my character in command of the 1199th Infantry Regiment
(Jump)
>(Commando), and I would like to know whether the 1188th is a sister
>regiment.

	1188th was a mercenary unit featured (as no longer existing) in an
Amber Zone article. Their unit logo was a skeletal hand holding five
cards--two aces and two 8's showing, and the fifth card face down. If
I recall correctly, playing stud poker this particular hand is
supposedly bad luck (hence the skeletal hand ...).

	The (quickly dead) NPC in this nugget was actually carrying part of
a secret treasure map--five different cards were held by five
different former members of the unit. Only when all five were
overlaid would you have the complete map.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 00:24:22 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: nasty cross over idea...

rofl.  I tend to use the WOD system for all my games and I think I will use that
in a traveller setting soon.  Also try tossing a mummy at the party if you have
the mummy rules.  (Call the stars in a space ship can be a bad thing.)

Mark Urbin wrote:

> I picked up a copy of GURPS:Mage today (Mage is the only White Wolf eye to
> really catch my interest).
>
> A hearty band of Traveller adventurers are looking for a ship to serve on.
> In the Downport is a ship owner looking for a crew.  In addition to being
> the Owner Aboard, he's the Chief Engineer.  He's very protective of his
> Jump Engines.
>
> He's also a Son of Ether Mage!  (For those who don't know Mage, for the
> Sons of Ether, think a blend of Doc Savage, Victor Frankenstein & Doctor
> Who, with Thomas Dolby's "Weird Science" as a theme song).
>
> The Jump Drive is also a Trans-Time/Dimensional drive.  Kind of a TARDIS
> with an Occilation Overthruster.
>
> The odds of me actually pulling this off are slim, but I like the idea anyway.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
> "Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
> that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
> or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
> CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
>               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:28:08 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: 1188th? (was: Re: Patches) 

> At 09:45 PM 4/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >David J. Golden wrote:
> >> 
> ><<snip patch request info, except for:>>
> >
> >>         1188th (Aces and Eights)
> >
> >Who, pray tell, are the 1188th?  I ask mainly because my referee has
> >placed my character in command of the 1199th Infantry Regiment
> (Jump)
> >(Commando), and I would like to know whether the 1188th is a sister
> >regiment.
> 
> 	1188th was a mercenary unit featured (as no longer existing) in an
> Amber Zone article. Their unit logo was a skeletal hand holding five
> cards--two aces and two 8's showing, and the fifth card face down. If
> I recall correctly, playing stud poker this particular hand is
> supposedly bad luck (hence the skeletal hand ...).

The logo derived from the 'Dead Man's Hand' held by Hickock when he was killed 
in Deadwood -- a pair of aces and a pair of eights.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:33:29 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

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>>Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still connected, and pumping
>>LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang outside the jump
>>field? In this case the explosive bolts are only used when the ship
>>actually jumps,and the tanks are discarded into jump space.
>
>If that was so, the _Trimkhana-Brilliance_ would have been in jump space
>when the drop tank failed to detatch. Also, the description clearly states
>that jump takes place AFTER the tanks are at a safe distance from the
>jumping ship.

The description of the Trimkhana-Brilliance tragedy in JTAS #6 only says it
occurred "immediately prior to jump" and does not specify the time between
normal drop tank separation and jump. It does say one drop tank failed to
separate, so the ship was not necessarily in jump space under any
interpretation of how drop tanks work. Alternatively, the length of time
between the disaster and investigation, and the damage involved, is not
inconsistent with the ship being in jump space at the time of the capacitor
discharge. There is simply not enough information to tell.

It is true that JTAS #2 says the ship jumps after the tanks separate, but
it also clearly states the tanks are not reusable. All the current
hypotheses have some problems with canon. I am not totally satisfied with
the "drop tanks are discarded into jump space" interpretation myself. For
example, how can the last bit of fuel be drained from tanks sticking
outside the jump field? Also, I vaguely remember a published adventure
where someone collects old used drop tanks.

Looking over the old articles, a TNS release from 101-1105 states the
Imperium has decided to deploy jump-6 XBoats on "all major express routes".
It also states this express service should be implemented to Regina
subsector "within a decade". Considering SJG has advanced the timeline to
1116, the theories that drop tanks would invalidate the current Third
Imperium setting may not be so remote after all.


- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Economics of Drop Tanks</title></head><body>
<div>&gt;&gt;Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still
connected, and pumping<br>
&gt;&gt;LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang
outside the jump<br>
&gt;&gt;field? In this case the explosive bolts are only used when
the ship<br>
&gt;&gt;actually jumps,and the tanks are discarded into jump
space.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;If that was so, the _Trimkhana-Brilliance_ would have been in
jump space<br>
&gt;when the drop tank failed to detatch. Also, the description
clearly states<br>
&gt;that jump takes place AFTER the tanks are at a safe distance from
the<br>
&gt;jumping ship.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The description of the Trimkhana-Brilliance tragedy in JTAS #6
only says it occurred &quot;<font color="#000000">immediately prior
to jump</font>&quot; and does not specify the time between normal
drop tank separation and jump. It does say one drop tank failed to
separate, so the ship was not necessarily in jump space under any
interpretation of how drop tanks work. Alternatively, the length of
time between the disaster and investigation, and the damage involved,
is not inconsistent with the ship being in jump space at the time of
the capacitor discharge. There is simply not enough information to
tell.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>It is true that JTAS #2 says the ship jumps after the tanks
separate, but it also clearly states the tanks are not reusable. All
the current hypotheses have some problems with canon. I am not
totally satisfied with the &quot;drop tanks are discarded into jump
space&quot; interpretation myself. For example, how can the last bit
of fuel be drained from tanks sticking outside the jump field? Also,
I vaguely remember a published adventure where someone collects old
used drop tanks.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Looking over the old articles, a TNS release from <font
color="#000000">101-1105</font> states the Imperium has decided to
deploy jump-6 XBoats on &quot;all major express routes&quot;. It also
states this express service should be implemented to Regina subsector
&quot;within a decade&quot;. Considering SJG has advanced the
timeline to 1116, the theories that drop tanks would invalidate the
current Third Imperium setting may not be so remote after all.</div>
<div><br></div>

<div><br>
- --<br>
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- </div>
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:29:55 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>> If you add just a touch of pride, and a bit of temper to them, you get
good
>> comicbook villians like Magneto or Ras Al Ghul, or the Irish RL hero
Michael
>> Collins.
>
>If you can find copies, read E.E. Smith's "Skylark" series ("Skylark of
>Space", "Skylark Three", "Skylark of Valeron", & "Skylark DuQuesne").

Yep, I still _have_ copies, including a 1962 second Pyramid printing, with
the author being listed as Edward Smith, rather than the more well known
E.E. Smith

>Marc C. "Blackie" DuQuesne is most definitely a villian. But he's
>*interesting* damn it! He's only out to "get" the heroes because they
>are in the way of his plans. Nothing personal. And when a threat to the
>human race shows up, he negotiates a truce for the duration of the
>crisis (and no longer! :-)

Most definitely, I always thought Richard Seaton was drip.
When I was a teenager, DuQuesne was my hero !

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:51:34 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: taxes in the Imperium...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 27 April 1999 10:09
Subject: taxes in the Imperium


>> From: AveNelso@aol.com
>
>>         I also seem to remeber seeing somewhere that the Imperium taxes
the
>> worlds and not individuals, which makes it easier to collect on their
level
>> and keeps the Imperial Fiscus out of people's daily lives.
>


And this makes much more sense, not unlike an overlord collecting taxes from
his barons, the barons themselves taxing the people.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:40:37 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Flashes (was: Re: Patches)

>"Uniforms of the Terran Occupation Force", _Travellers Digest_ #14 mentions
>jump wings but notes that Marines leave a blank spot where they should be
>worn (except in dress uniforms), because all Marines are jump-qualified,
>while only elite Army troops are so trained.  They also mention the
>unofficial combat drop slash, worn at the back of the collar (a narrow
>strip of black on field uniforms, scarlet on the maroon dress uniform.)

That's only the pansy jump units, drop troops, OTOH, get a silver death's
head ear-ring for their first live drop, and add a single cross-bone
underneath it for each live drop thereafter. Sounds like it could get
uncomfortable, but you don't often see a vet with two full sets of
crossbones....

Oh, an' a "live drop" means being in the tube over a hot LZ, none of this
"in country 24 hours", "arrived in the commodore's yacht" shit.

( Historian's Note : Difference between the names "drop troops" and "jump
troops" are now largely ignored, due to all assault units now being jump
capable. Earlier, though. the differentiation was impotant. "Jump" troops
are those equipped with gravitic lift devices, and can usually use those
same devices to extract themselves from an untenable beach-head. "Drop"
troops are not, making use of either extremely cheap "one shot" gravitic
braking units or atmospheric braking ( parachutes), and were thus unlikely
to be extractable if the beach-head was compromised )

BTW, I'm trying to create the same differentiation here between what are now
known as paratroopers, and the concept of an "Air-mobile" unit with integral
ability to take off again, as they have somewhat different psychological
effects on those in them.

>It's a good article, although the illustrations must be of Miles Vorskogian
>as a Marine.  The model is 5 foot nothing (150 cm for the metric crowd, the
>Brits will have out work out "hands" on their own.)

The Brit's use feet. But real feet, not the US impersonation.
"hands" are for horses.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:07:11 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting...

- -----Original Message-----
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
<david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 27 April 1999 1:24
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting


>
>I am constantly amazed at the breadth and depth of experience on this list.
>At the drop of a hat, we can call up detailed RW analyses from weapons
>experts, fusion engineers, particle physicists, economists, lawyers,
>shipbuilders, medicos, and more.
>
>Do Marc, Loren, and SJG fully realise the value of this resource they have?
>(They probably do!)
>
>/humour on/
>I have only one gripe - why can't we, together, build a Free Trader??  ;-)
>/humour off/
>

It is impressive isn't it?  That's why I have hung about since finding the
place!  (hoping some of the smarts will rub off onto me :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 04:59:52 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Planet Building

In a message dated 4/26/99 10:31:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
redroach@flex.net writes:

<< Okay, this is a little off topic, but....
 Is anyone here familiar with 2300 AD?
 I can't figure out the planet/system building rules.
 Is there a Traveller program/spreadsheet that will do this in terms close
 those of 2300?
 Anyone want to build one for 2300?
  >>

There is a system generation program for GURPS SPACE called STAR GEN or Star 
System Generator at  
<A HREF="http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/utilities/index.html">Steve Jackson 
Games: Computer Aids For Our Games
</A> that produces a product very similar to the old 2300 AD game. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 05:03:18 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Avenger-Class Patrol Frigate

I just posted the Avenger-Class Carrillian Patrol Frigate from 'Letter of 
Marque' on my homepage:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller/boats/aven.html

Thanxx to Andrew Keith for designing it and Paul Sanders for allowing me to 
post it on the net.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:20:25 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: different cultures

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 27 April 1999 1:34
Subject: different cultures


>> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>> Subject: Re: Subject Change Request
>
>> Strange - in the UK, when the Dunblane attack happened we *banned*
>> handguns, not the jeans or jacket the murderer was wearing.
>
>Here's a good example of why the American colonies felt that they had to
>become independent of Britain.  We just stopped being able to understand
>one another.
>
>--Glenn
>

We not long had the anniversary of a mass shooting in Tasmania (the island
south of and part of Oz).  Our government tried to ban many guns, but being
a strong farming culture (ha!), our farmers baulked at the idea because they
need those fully automatic assault rifles to kill foxes and rabbits (the
former eat small livestock like chickens and domesticated pet, the latter
quickly reach plague proportions) and didn't like the idea of being
restricted to bolt action rifles and shotguns.

The Aussie rifle association is now publishing on the net, photos of pollies
and their homes (but only those that oppose the shooters)... for no apparent
reason?????  I know guns don't kill people, but I'm sure that most weirdos
that use them to kill people would be more at a loss!  No apparent reason?
That lost me.

ObTrav:  Notice how many PC's smuggle weapons for personal use onto worlds
where they are restricted.  How are they dealt with by the law when caught?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:04:41 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Re: Economics of Drop Tanks>It is true that JTAS #2 says the ship jumps
after the tanks separate, but it also clearly states the tanks are not
reusable. All the current hypotheses >have some problems with canon.

Frankly, I don't see the problem. The reference (reproduced below for
clarity ) does not state it is impossible to manufacture a re-usable
drop-tank. It states that this particular brand of drop-tanks are not
re-usable. Perhaps it's actuallly cheaper to discard them ?

> I am not totally satisfied with the "drop tanks are discarded into jump
space" interpretation myself.

Neither am I, it is completely against CT canon. CT actually has no problem
with drop tanks, the difficulty comes when you try and bolt MegaTraveller
(and later) explanations for jump-space onto CT. CT is quite happy with the
concept of all the energy from the hydrogen being extracted before jump,
it's only when you add the (IMO) silly requirement for the hydrogen to be
used to "maintain the jump bubble" that it starts getting difficult to
reconcile.

But then black globe energy usage for jump also breaks in this case.

>For example, how can the last bit of fuel be drained from tanks sticking
outside the jump field?
Also, I vaguely remember a published adventure where someone >collects old
used drop tanks.

The description of drop tank usage in the original reference states that the
fuel is used to charge the capacitors, the drop-tanks are dropped, and
_then_ jump is initiated. It states also that the technology for drop--tanks
is _not_ the limiting factor, it's actually the _capacitor_  technology,
which is currently_not_ reproducible in the Spinward Marches, though the
relatively low tech drop-tanks are.

Note also that this reference implies that the economic revolution some
people are complaining should happen, _is_ happening,
The refernce talks about Oberlindes Lines stock dropping with Tukera's
announcement.

>Looking over the old articles, a TNS release from 101-1105 states the
Imperium has decided to deploy jump-6 XBoats on "all major express routes".
>It also states this express service should be implemented to Regina
subsector "within a decade". Considering SJG has advanced the timeline to
>1116, the theories that drop tanks would invalidate the current Third
Imperium setting may not be so remote after all.

Actually , based on this, _removal_ of drop-tanks would invalidate the
setting.

Here's the original TNS article :

REGINA / REGINA (0310-A788899-A) Date. 097-1105

Officials of the General Shipyards on Regina today announced that they have
completed negotiations with Tukera Lines to locally manufacture L-Hyd drop
tanks for use on high-capacity commercial vessels. The first production
examples are expected to be available within six months, at which time
Tukera Lines will begin high capacity service from the interior. Component
assembly will be carried out at General's more modern facilities on Pixie
(0303-AlOO103-D).

 L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the
interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor
engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped
with the new generation of long-storage jump capacitors carry jump fuel in
specially designed L-Hyd drop tanks in excess of their rated tonnage. Upon
conversion of the fuel to the massive energy required for jump, the drop
tanks are explosively jettisoned through the use of break-away connections
and explosive bolts. Jump is executed when the remains of the tanks are a
safe distance from the vessel.
A spokesman for General Shipyards explained that local yards are not yet
capable of manufacturing the long-storage capacitors required for the
process, but that production of the drop tanks is possible, thus allowing
the high capacity starships of the Tukera Lines to begin service to the
Regina subsector.

L-Hyd drop tanks are not reusable, and thus increase the absolute cost per
jump. However, experience has shown that the increase in cargo tonnage
resulting from the elimination of internal J-fuel storage more than makes up
for this, the press release explained.

The joint press release concluded by stating that local manufacture of L-Hyd
drop tanks marked the dawn of a newsera of commerce and prosperity in the
Regina subsector. Following the announcement, common stock in Oberlindes
Lines plummeted 27 points on the Regina exchange before trading was
suspended. Officials of Oberlindes Lines were not available for comment.



Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:20:29 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Base

>From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #500
>
>what makes up the Imperial tax base?  Unfortunately I am separated from my
>Traveller books, so I can't look up this burning question.
>Does the imperium:
>
>1) tax starport usage
>2) levy personal or corporate income tax (like federal=imperial and
>state=world?)
>3) take a cut of each member world's Gross World Product?(corruption here we
>come!)
>4) take a tariff on all goods coming through imperial facilities?
>5)all of the above?
>
>high guard and trillion credit squadron touched on this, but I think they
>did it according to each world's economic prosperity, a pocket empire being
>the sum of the production of its members.  Canon describes the Imperium as
>being much more lassiez faire.  I welcome any comments.

2 has the problem of getting little bits of money off a lot of people.

3 is easier to collect, because you are only invoicing one entity - the
planetary government.

1 and 4 have the disadvantage that doing it discourages interstellar trade,
which is the Imperium's reason to be.

There is also #6 - own a chunk of the megacorporations, and spend the
dividends.

Other possibilities include auctioning off rights to newly discovered
worlds and leasing out elements of the IN to interested parties.

The final option is to use debt rather than taxes to pay for short-term
spikes in expenditures - if you cant underwrite the Second Solomani Rim
War, you arent a megacorporation.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:41:40 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Background hook: New starport

Situation: An interstellar state (e.g. 3I) decides to establish a new 
starport/spaceport at a certain planet.

Consequence: competition to get the starport, among nations, regions, 
or even individuals.

Background aids: Just modify the following RL news...

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

*** States compete for spaceports

FREEPORT, Texas (AP) - When Fred Welch surveys 1,000 acres of prairie
near the Texas coast, he thinks not of the land before him but of the
stars above. Welch has a vision for this stretch of soil about an
hour south of Houston. He sees a spaceport, with rocketships coming
and going as easily as 747s at an airport. It's a vision shared by
Andy Poole in Montana and William Dettmer in New Mexico, who both
have several thousand of acres available. They all are competitors in
a new space race, where the prize is a slice of a multibillion-dollar
industry - launching cargo into orbit - that could provide thousands
of jobs and create a new hub in the next era of space transportation.
See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2559313997-d49

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:47:06 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

At 21:04 27/04/1999 +1200, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> quoted:
>Here's the original TNS article :
>
>REGINA / REGINA (0310-A788899-A) Date. 097-1105
>
<snip>
>
> L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the
>interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor
>engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped

So it's a benefit of TL16 jump drives?
Its a shame none of the design systems mention this.

>with the new generation of long-storage jump capacitors carry jump fuel in
>specially designed L-Hyd drop tanks in excess of their rated tonnage. Upon
>conversion of the fuel to the massive energy required for jump, the drop
>tanks are explosively jettisoned through the use of break-away connections
>and explosive bolts. Jump is executed when the remains of the tanks are a
>safe distance from the vessel.

It's a shame that whoever wrote this seems to be a bit confused about
what explosive bolts do. As others have mentioned, if you can wait
whilst the various bits of the drop tank drift away at a few m/s,
it should be possible to have a proper fuel tank pulling 10G or more
for a few seconds using HEPlaR or thrusters.
(drop tanks are very light, especially empty ones)

Alternatively, since your drop tank costs 1,000Cr/ton instead of
50,000Cr/ton, what you actually have is just a plastic bag impregnated
with an oxidiser - fire the explosive bolts and you are rapidly outside
the 100D limit of the smoke particles.

<snip>

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:51:37 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> types:
>Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:>Where I live for example (Las Vegas); one high 
>school (Green 
>>Valley High) has already resorted to confiscating black trenchcoats, and 
>>banning the wearing of black "Goth" clothing. It hits home and I DON'T like 
>>it. It's only a small stretch for these people to extend this to the
computer 
>>wargame Doom, and from there to all wargames, like Traveller.
>Strange - in the UK, when the Dunblane attack happened we *banned* 
>handguns, not the jeans or jacket the murderer was wearing.
>ObTrav: Different cultures respond differently to the same problem. The 
>impact of the response may be more or less effective.

    According the the London Times, violent crime is on the rise in the UK.
Perhaps it has something to do with people rather than objects.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #509
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 510



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

heavy sigh...
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: heavy sigh...
Re: Government Type 6
GUN CONTROL
Re: heavy sigh...
Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]
Re: A-10 myth busting
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Background hook: New starport
Re: Drop Tanks
re: Flashes
Re: Background hook: New starport
Re: heavy sigh...
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: RPG Paranoia:  clothes
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: A-10 myth busting
Re: Background hook: New starport
re: Flashes
*** TAS Emergency Bulletin ***

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:13:20 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: heavy sigh...

cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> types out:
[snip]
>>2) Killers gained access to firearms and information necessary to construct
>>explosive devices.
>The question arises, how did the kids get access to those kinds of firearms?
>Of course, you can practically get AK-47s out of coin-operated vending
>machines
    A statement so silly it must be sarcastic.

>in most of the USA. My apologies in advance to the American members on this
>mailing list, but if these kids of weapons were restricted to begin with,
>the tragedy could have been averted. I saw a list of the weapons they had --
>most of which are, in Canada, illegal for a private citizen to own. 

Data from the London Times:
More British Statistics 
1988-1993 Britain enacts strict new firearms laws.
1988 - 93: The number of violent crimes increased by 33.6 per cent.
1988 - 93: The number of robberies increased by 80.6 per cent.
1988 - 93: the number of robberies with a firearm increased by 117 per cent.

Australia 
One year after gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms 
to be destroyed, including semi-automatic .22 rifles and shotguns, a program 
costing the government over 500 million dollars, the results are in...
OBSERVABLE FACT, AFTER 12 MONTHS OF DATA:
* Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%
* Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%
* Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44% (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
* In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%
* Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in 
homicides-with-firearms (changed dramatically upward in the past 12 months)
* Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in 
armed-robbery-with-firearms (changed dramatically upward in the past 12 
months)
* There has been a dramatic increase in 
break-ins-and-assaults-of-the-elderly
* Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no 
improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and 
expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns". Their 
response has been to "wait longer".

From the Brisbane Courier Mail 
Crime involving guns has soared despite tougher laws imposed after the 
Port Arthur massacre. The number of robberies involving guns leapt 39% 
to 2188 last year, an Australian Bureau of Statistics report reveals. 
Assault involving guns jumped 28% to 806.
In Queensland the use of guns in sexual assaults was also higher last 
years than the previous years.


>>Where this subject affects this list most is in the third variable above.
>>It has been suggested that game-playing is an instrumental factor in
>>causing such incidents as that which occured at this unfortunate Colorado
>>high school.

Tipper Gore was on Meet the Press this Sunday.  RPG types should remember
her published views on RPGs.  
From her flagship work, RAISING PG KIDS IN AN X-RATED SOCIETY (published in
87, if you have anything newer in print, I would like to know about it.)

p. 118: 

     "But like a cancer, satanism has come a long way since then, as heavy
metal 
groups capitalized on a growing fascination with the occult. From THE EXORCIST 
to the Dungeons and Dragons fantasy role-playing game, Americans chased one 
occult fad after another. The popular Dungeons and Dragons game has sold eight 
million sets. The game is based on occultic plots, images, and characters
which 
players "become" as they play the game. According to Mrs. Pat Pulling, founder 
of the organization Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons, the game has been 
linked to nearly fifty teenage suicides and homicides. Pulling's own son
killed 
himself in 1982 after becoming deeply involved in the game through his
school's 
giftedstudents program. A fellow-player threatened him with a "death curse," 
and he killed himself in response." 

Ob-Trav:  Why is that the players who whine the loudest about not being able 
to wander the streets of every planet without several gauss guns are the ones
who push for strict victim disarment laws in RL?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Practice random acts of intelligence & senseless acts of self-control.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:22:13 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
>
>Neither am I, it is completely against CT canon. CT actually has no problem
>with drop tanks, the difficulty comes when you try and bolt MegaTraveller
>(and later) explanations for jump-space onto CT. CT is quite happy with the
>concept of all the energy from the hydrogen being extracted before jump,
>it's only when you add the (IMO) silly requirement for the hydrogen to be
>used to "maintain the jump bubble" that it starts getting difficult to
>reconcile.

CT isnt at all happy with that idea, once you plug High Guard into it.

In High Guard, an Energy Point is at or about 250 MW.

Now, if the hydrogren is having it's energy extracted before jump, then we
are dealing with e=mc^2.

A dton of hydrogen is therefore e=10^9*(3*10^9)^2, or 10^9*3*10^18, or
3*10^27 joules.

This becomes a slightly less insane 3*10^21 mejajoules, or a quite
reasonable 10^19 energy points at 250 MW an energy point - actually, call
it 3 orders of magnitude less, because you are extracting it over 1000
seconds or so. 10^16 is therefore our number.

Given therefore that a type R meson gun needs a mere 20 000 EP or so (a
measly 2*10^4), why cant we strap a Free Trader's jump drive to the back of
one and have power coming out of our ears ?

Ah. I've got it. Two different sorts of power. Jump power and not-jump
power, and they dont mix.

Finally, the description of the Trikhama-Brilliance tragedy is a press
release, and a good read. But eschew Gloranthaism - dont regard old sources
as better, just because they are older (1).

Ian Whitchurch

(1) Compare for example the boring mundanity of the description of the
Seven Mothers in 'Gods of Prax' with the sublimity of the far more modern
'Pelorian Rhapsody'.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:23:44 EDT
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: heavy sigh...

In a message dated 99-04-27 08:16:21 EDT, you write:

<< Ob-Trav:  Why is that the players who whine the loudest about not being 
able 
 to wander the streets of every planet without several gauss guns are the ones
 who push for strict victim disarment laws in RL? >>

it's oh so simple guy, it's the standard liberial/left-winger response to 
something. 

they want something for themselves, but not for any one else.  Look at the 
Super Rich Elites in Hollywerid... they have butt loads of money and very 
rarely donate it, but get really ticked when someone who has more money than 
they do (like Bill Gates who donates MILLIONS a day) donates more money than 
they do.  So their answer is to tax the bloodly blazes out of the little guy 
while their tax lawyers get them off easy while the Poor Trash like me get 
swamped with their taxes and can't keep their bills paid.

richard

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:36:00 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Government Type 6

In a message dated 4/26/99 6:29:23 AM Central Daylight Time, 
dhealey@giant.net.au writes:

<< My specific problem is Pretoria (0406 - Pretoria/Deneb) which in 1120 has a
 government type 6 with a population of 7 billion and no other system listed
 as coloniser/owner.  Who's in control ?
  >>

The government codes are meant to stimulate the thought process. So, I can 
imagine a government like the British Empire... ruled (and exploited) from 
afar. Or the world was simply colonized 600 years ago from a nearby world and 
never threw off the yoke of the owners.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:54:02 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: GUN CONTROL

Sorry for shouting, but I think this is rather important.

Okay, now I can see the relevance of discussing the recent US school
tragedy in respect to how it relates to RPG's and the subsequent public
responses. But please can we keep gun control debates off the list. Not
only do they not belong here, but its sort of like pouring out kerosene
and then holding up a lighted match. This is just not a topic that can
possibly be solved here, and its almost guaranteed to start a nasty little
flame war.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:04:30 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: heavy sigh...

><< Ob-Trav:  Why is that the players who whine the loudest about not being
>able
> to wander the streets of every planet without several gauss guns are the ones
> who push for strict victim disarment laws in RL? >>
>
>it's oh so simple guy, it's the standard liberial/left-winger response to
>something.
>
>they want something for themselves, but not for any one else.  Look at the
>Super Rich Elites in Hollywerid... they have butt loads of money and very
>rarely donate it, but get really ticked when someone who has more money than
>they do (like Bill Gates who donates MILLIONS a day) donates more money than
>they do.  So their answer is to tax the bloodly blazes out of the little guy
>while their tax lawyers get them off easy while the Poor Trash like me get
>swamped with their taxes and can't keep their bills paid.
>
>richard

When I hear people defending their right to bear arms just after another
gungeek shooting spree i reach for my near c rocks (driven by a mixture of
Heplar and thrusterplates).
Besides, can you two guys jerk one another of in private, this mailing list
is for Traveller. There are newsgroups for this kind of shit, use them.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:02:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

At 02:06 PM 4/26/99 -0700, you wrote:

>> Every school shooter that has ripped apart communities across this country
>> hasn't played tabletop RPGs. All of them did not play Doom or Quake. Not
>> all of them dressed in black trenchcoats. They don't seem to share the same
>> taste in music or film. Not all of them are avid World War II buffs. What
>> is the common denominator here? In case after case, we hear *from other
>> students* that these children were teased and ostracized by their
>> classmates for a variety of reasons.
>
>That, and the fact that they are all middle or upper middle class
>suburban kids.  Maybe all that exposure to cars, single family homes,
>and shopping malls is just too much for some people.

A local talk-radio host pointed out that all of the kids involved in recent
school shootings had been Christians, and said that if we wanted to
scapegoat anybody, that was the only connection.  He was being sarcastic,
but was flooded with angry calls anyway.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:07:01 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting

>/humour on/
>I have only one gripe - why can't we, together, build a Free Trader??  ;-)
>/humour off/

We have all the knowledge to easily build a Free trader for peanut money -
only problem is that we cannot agree on what design system to use ;-)


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:08:58
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

At 10:45 PM 4/26/99 -0400, you wrote:

>My own personal suspicion is that they were fascinated by Hitler to a large
>extent. Even some well-adjusted academics are fascinated by Hitler. However,
>a being enamored by the nazi regime and being a nazi are two entirely
>different things. Of course, I have no proof on that one.

I'll speak up as someone who is fascinated by the Nazi era, and studies it
closely.  This does mean I admire anything they did, it's just an amazing
period of world history.

When I was in High School, I wore an offcier's cap from the People'd
Liberation Army, completes with red star on the brow.  I did this to piss
people off more than anything else, because it was the early 80s and
communism was still a legitamate hate target.  I think many of these kids
get into things like studying nazism and Marilyn Manson just to get a
reaction out of adults.

ObTrav: In the Spinward Marches, might teens young adults find the Zhodani
way of life a way of rebellion?  Marching for psionic rights, demanding
detente..
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:25:37 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:41:40 +0000 "Carlos Alos-Ferrer"
<Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> writes:
>
>*** States compete for spaceports
>
>FREEPORT, Texas (AP) - When Fred Welch surveys 1,000 acres of prairie

snippage

Here we go folks.  Next thing you hear is that Tampa is digging a REALLY
BIG hole in the ground outside of town.

(quick now, what's the reference?)

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:28:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Howdy!

Ian wrote:
> 
> >From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
> >
> >Neither am I, it is completely against CT canon. CT actually has no problem
> >with drop tanks, the difficulty comes when you try and bolt MegaTraveller
> >(and later) explanations for jump-space onto CT. CT is quite happy with the
> >concept of all the energy from the hydrogen being extracted before jump,
> >it's only when you add the (IMO) silly requirement for the hydrogen to be
> >used to "maintain the jump bubble" that it starts getting difficult to
> >reconcile.

I'm not sure I'd use the phrase "all of the energy from the hydrogen being
extracted". It suggests a total conversion of mass to energy, which Ian
takes as a starting point for his reducto ad absurdum argument.
> 
> CT isnt at all happy with that idea, once you plug High Guard into it.
> 
> In High Guard, an Energy Point is at or about 250 MW.
> 
> Now, if the hydrogren is having it's energy extracted before jump, then we
> are dealing with e=mc^2.
> 
> A dton of hydrogen is therefore e=10^9*(3*10^9)^2, or 10^9*3*10^18, or
> 3*10^27 joules.
> 
> This becomes a slightly less insane 3*10^21 mejajoules, or a quite
> reasonable 10^19 energy points at 250 MW an energy point - actually, call
> it 3 orders of magnitude less, because you are extracting it over 1000
> seconds or so. 10^16 is therefore our number.
> 
> Given therefore that a type R meson gun needs a mere 20 000 EP or so (a
> measly 2*10^4), why cant we strap a Free Trader's jump drive to the back of
> one and have power coming out of our ears ?
> 
> Ah. I've got it. Two different sorts of power. Jump power and not-jump
> power, and they dont mix.

Personally, I favor the "run it real hard bt real rich to keep it from 
burning itself up like a dragster motor" approach with the precise energy
output undefined beyond "enough to do the jump". I can get up a real good
breeze with my hands waving like that. :)
> 
> Finally, the description of the Trikhama-Brilliance tragedy is a press
> release, and a good read. But eschew Gloranthaism - dont regard old sources
> as better, just because they are older (1).
> 
One item mentioned in the TNS bulletin is the remark that the tanks are
not reusable. Perhaps that is the official story. I prefer to think that 
drop tanks are _not immediately_ reusable, requiring some level of inspection,
refit and repair. After all, you have to replace the attachment fittings at
the very least. 

Someone questioned the need for explosive bolts.

Given that the tanks are drained and then jettisoned, and given that the tanks
have to get clear before initiating jump, you need a highly reliable separation
mechanism. Ideally, that mechanism will provide the tanks with a sufficient
velocity vector such that further maneuvering by the ship will not be required
to achieve the necessary separation. Explosive bolts are a very reliable
mechanism; there are no latches to stick. *poof* I'm not sure how well they will
impart delta-V. Another approach is, in effect, shotgun blanks to provide the
impulse for the delta-V. IIRC, this technique is used to achieve positive
separation of bombs from bomb racks today. One could use twice as many shells
as required for the minimum delta-V to ensure adequate separation.

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:26:32 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Flashes

Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's only the pansy jump units, drop troops, OTOH, get a silver death's
head ear-ring for their first live drop, and add a single cross-bone
underneath it for each live drop thereafter. Sounds like it could get
uncomfortable, but you don't often see a vet with two full sets of
crossbones....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Someone's been reading _Starship Troopers_. :)

IIRC, Rico's first unit (that was shredded at Bughouse I) used this system,
while his next unit (Raczak's Roughknecks) took a different approach - 
you were either a combat-proven Roughkneck, or you weren't. Everyone
who mattered (i.e., other Roughknecks) knew how good you were without
scorekeeper earrings.

ObTrav: gotta love them unit-specific traditions.
I'm thinking of the ritual in the US Navy where they do a kind of hazing
for new crewmen the first time they cross the equator on a Navy ship.
Would Marines in the 3I have a similar ritual for troopers on their first
jump? Something to pass the time in the hole.

I have this image of a rookie climbing into a drop capsule while the old
hands fill it up with something festive, yet unpleasant to be doused in. <G>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:36:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Stump <rick_stump@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

- --- j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:41:40 +0000 "Carlos
> Alos-Ferrer"
> <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> writes:
> >
> >*** States compete for spaceports
> >
> >FREEPORT, Texas (AP) - When Fred Welch surveys
> 1,000 acres of prairie
> 
> snippage
> 
> Here we go folks.  Next thing you hear is that Tampa
> is digging a REALLY
> BIG hole in the ground outside of town.
> 
> (quick now, what's the reference?)

WoooHoooo! Deep meson!
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:37:57 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: heavy sigh...

<rant mode>

A heavy sigh indeed.  I dont care how many laws anyone passes, if someone
wants to go psycho and start killing folks, all the darn laws in the
world wont stop em.  Its already against the law to kill people, and for
minors to purchase weapons.  Of course our nanny government will try
their best to pass new ones now, since its for our own good of course,
not that impending elections has anything to do with it.  I feel very
sorry for the people suffering in Colorado, but darn it, its time to stop
whining about guns and games and movies and start raising our kids right
and taking responsibility for them and teaching them to take
responsibility for themselves.  What next, do we start outlawing
chemistry classes??  I can go in my house and create at least four types
of weapons on hand right now.  I have two kids, and I damn well go
through their rooms covertly, and will confront them about ANYTHING that
is not right, ethical, proper, or simply out of character that I find.  I
also censor their TV viewing, book reading, and anything else that comes
along.  (their only 7 and 10, but it starts early)  It is MY
responsibility to raise them to be good and productive citizens, and I'll
be damned if the current government is going to tell me how to do it.  I
own weapons and my kids know it, and know not to bother them.  They know
what they'll do to a person.  And when they're old enough and strong
enough to handle them, I'll teach them how to use them as well.  It is a
fact that states here that have the most lax gun control laws also have
the lowest crime rates, by as much as 30 % in some cases.

</rant>

Sorry, I had to let that fly.  I feel better now.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:21:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

At 09:27 PM 4/26/99 -0600, you wrote:

>The question arises, how did the kids get access to those kinds of firearms?
>Of course, you can practically get AK-47s out of coin-operated vending
>machines in most of the USA. 

A couple of minor points.

1> AK-47s are banned in most of the US, as are the 30-round magazines they
use.

2> Every weapon purchase (expect private sales or at a gunshow) requires a
minimum five day waiting period and backround checks.

Hardly dispensing them from vending machines.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:22:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia:  clothes

At 02:26 PM 4/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia
>
>> Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a .32
>> ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.
>
>"Is that a gun in your swim trunks or are you just glad ... oh, it is a
>gun in your swim trunks."
>
>Would you mind showing us that particular concealed carry at the
>Baycon/Denny's dinner?

You really want to ruin you appetite?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:43:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

At 06:08 AM 4/27/99, I wrote:

>I'll speak up as someone who is fascinated by the Nazi era, and studies it
>closely.  This does mean I admire anything they did, it's just an amazing
>period of world history.


EEekkk!!!  does *not* mean, does *not* mean!!!!!!

I have got to start proof reading a bit more closely...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:40:56 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting

Nah, its simpler than that.  We cant agree where all that H2 goes!!

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:07:01 -0500 anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders
Backman) writes:
>>/humour on/
>>I have only one gripe - why can't we, together, build a Free Trader?? 
> ;-)
>>/humour off/
>
>We have all the knowledge to easily build a Free trader for peanut 
>money -
>only problem is that we cannot agree on what design system to use ;-)
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:48:08 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Richard Stump
<rick_stump@yahoo.com> writes:
>> 
>> Here we go folks.  Next thing you hear is that Tampa
>> is digging a REALLY
>> BIG hole in the ground outside of town.
>> 
>> (quick now, what's the reference?)
>
>WoooHoooo! Deep meson!

Ummm, sorry, wrong reference.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:47:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Flashes

At 09:26 AM 4/27/99 -0400, you wrote:

>ObTrav: gotta love them unit-specific traditions.
>I'm thinking of the ritual in the US Navy where they do a kind of hazing
>for new crewmen the first time they cross the equator on a Navy ship.
>Would Marines in the 3I have a similar ritual for troopers on their first
>jump? Something to pass the time in the hole.
>
>I have this image of a rookie climbing into a drop capsule while the old
>hands fill it up with something festive, yet unpleasant to be doused in. <G>

US Airborne tradition is to give a "cherry jumper" (new guy on his first
jump out of Airborne School) a special helmet for his jump.  This helmet is
heavily decorated, and covered with useful advice like "the ground is the
big green thing.. aim for it."  The best one I ever saw had a two foot
spike on top with "LAWN DART" written in orange reflective tape.
- -- 

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:06:53 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: *** TAS Emergency Bulletin ***

EMERGENCY BULLETIN
ALL TNS DATA NODES
FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH

The Domain Navy reports that TNS data node at www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas
is being decommissioned effective immediately for indefinite future.  Distribution
of
salvageable components is being monitored by the IISS and hired parties.

Salvage parties are requested to speak to the quartermaster at
www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas.

Mail packets will be accepted at eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #510
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 511



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Flashes
[OT]Re: heavy sigh...
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
T4 stuff
re: Flashes
Re: Jesse DeGraff.
Re: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
PbEM announcement,  The Scattered Worlds
Re: GUN CONTROL
re: Flashes
Let's not go there (was Re: heavy sigh...)
Re: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
Re: A-10 myth busting
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport
Paul Brunette contact information
Re: T4 stuff
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Background hook: New starport
Re: Flashes
Re: Government Type 6
Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
Re: A-10 myth busting
re: Flashes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:13:10 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: re: Flashes

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Someone's been reading _Starship Troopers_. :)
>
>IIRC, Rico's first unit (that was shredded at Bughouse I) used this system,
>while his next unit (Raczak's Roughknecks) took a different approach - 
>you were either a combat-proven Roughkneck, or you weren't. Everyone
>who mattered (i.e., other Roughknecks) knew how good you were without
>scorekeeper earrings.
>
>ObTrav: gotta love them unit-specific traditions.
>I'm thinking of the ritual in the US Navy where they do a kind of hazing
>for new crewmen the first time they cross the equator on a Navy ship.
>Would Marines in the 3I have a similar ritual for troopers on their first
>jump? Something to pass the time in the hole.
>
>I have this image of a rookie climbing into a drop capsule while the old
>hands fill it up with something festive, yet unpleasant to be doused in. <G>


Perhaps a quick gelling Jell-o?

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:35:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: [OT]Re: heavy sigh...

On Tue, 27 Apr 1999, Mark Urbin wrote:

> Australia 
> One year after gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms 
> to be destroyed, including semi-automatic .22 rifles and shotguns, a program 
> costing the government over 500 million dollars, the results are in...

You mean the criminals didn't turn in their guns too?!? (Those sneaks!)

You mean that once a commodity is outlawed, it doesn't become completely
unavailable, even to criminals?!?  (All together now: "Just Say No...")

Shocking news, Mark   ;)

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:42:18 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

> I find it amazing that RPGs and bands like M Manson are blamed
> for the outrage.  the fact that the USA is a gun culture and that they
> were into Nazism seems irrelevant to the media.

> No, the nazi angle has been downplayed by the media quite a bit in
> the last few days, for a few very good reasons. Klebold was of Jewish
> descent.

Why should that matter?  Hitler was of Jewish descent.  The media
attacks the so called "gun culture" because it has high profile
defenders - something that gives them an issue with legs.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:43:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: T4 stuff

Hi, I'm new to the list and new to Traveller (an understatement, really) and 
I'm looking for T4, FF&S, CSC, and Starships (sort of), does anyone know were 
I can get them?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:47:48 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Flashes

>>ObTrav: gotta love them unit-specific traditions.
>>I'm thinking of the ritual in the US Navy where they do a kind of hazing
>>for new crewmen the first time they cross the equator on a Navy ship.
>>Would Marines in the 3I have a similar ritual for troopers on their first
>>jump? Something to pass the time in the hole.
>>
>>I have this image of a rookie climbing into a drop capsule while the old
>>hands fill it up with something festive, yet unpleasant to be doused in. <G>

IMTU fresh SDB crewmembers are ordered to do some mundane EVA job such as
checking the passive array for static buildup or somesuch. When the newbie
is out the lock they'll accelerate away from him making shure he didn't egt
a safety line and keep going until the ship is invisible to the poor
sucker. Then they'll wait for perhaps an hour before coming back to get the
poor sucker.

This tradition is illegal due to some unfortunate deaths happening now and
then. The official policy is to stop it but all officers turn the other eye
and pretend they don't see it as they secretly like it (as in all similar
abuses after being subject to one one tends to like to inflict it upon the
newbies).

I had an adventure spinning around this about a rookie cremember that was
dumped this way over Efate just prior to 5FFW. The SDB had to abandon their
comrade when the Zhos attacked and when they returned he was gone - picked
up as a prisoner of war by the Zhos.

After the war he was POW exchanged and started looking up his crewmembers
one by one and killing them. Sort of an Agatha Christie in space.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:43:06 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jesse DeGraff.

In a message dated 4/26/99 9:06:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
rogerbarr@hotmail.com writes:

<< As far as I can tell, he is offline for now.
 I have several addresses for him, work and home, and I'm getting no 
 reply.
 I know his home ISP was having real serious issues involving down 
 time...
  >>

He's on vacation...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:54:18 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements

0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
>> One question about GT maintenance requirements - aren't they awfully
>>large
> >for small
> >ships? I'm thinking in particular of the Type S, which canonically can be
> >operated by one person
> >(one tired, stressed person, admittedly) but which now requires 24
>>man-hours
> >of maintenance
> >per day.
>The idea is that maintenance can be deferred at the risk of breakdowns.
>When that solo scout ship reaches port, he's going to need some time to put
>things back in working order.  I'd argue that maintenance doesn't accrue as
>the ship sits on planet, so you can catch up in a week or so, or a few days
>with help.

In the scoutship case, he'd take two weeks to catch up by himself (at 8
hours per
day and assuming he was working 8 hours per day while in jumpspace.) Not
much
time left for adventuring. Even a
two-man crew is basically continually maintaining their scoutship with
little sleep;
a three man crew doesn't have much margin either. This makes it very hard
for
a Type S to operate independently - with 1-2 people in the crew they
absolutely
have to operate between ports where they can pay for (expensive) outside
maintenance,
and even a 3-person crew is fixing their ship all the time.

This is an artifact of GT having maintenance go as sqrt(price) - large ships
need almost
no maintenance in proportion to their crew, small ships get really really
shafted. It's
unfortunate that the single worst point is the canonical type S...I would
say GT should
consider changing the scaling somehow - either getting rid of the sqrt, or
putting in
options for "high automation" or "low maintenance" ships somehow.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:02:32 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: PbEM announcement,  The Scattered Worlds

The Scattered Worlds

	Twenty thousand years ago, a race of humans arose from the darkness of
their caves and looked out on the valley below them.  What they saw, they
desired.  And what they desired, they took.  As time passed, they took
the entire world, and shaped it to their wishes, making themselves
comfortable and prosperous.  And as time passed, they found themselves
looking for new lands, new frontiers, new challenges, and eventually,
they looked up, and realized how small their holdings were, and once
again, like that long forgotten valley, what they saw, they desired, and
what they desired, they took.

	Eight thousand years ago, these humans found a means of Travelling
between the stars, and Travel they did.  At first they found little more
than dark, cold, icy worlds, and for a time wondered if they were alone
among the stars.  Then, a century after leaving their home world, they
met another intelligence, and to their surprise, these were also humans,
much like themselves, living on a blue and green world full of life and
riches, and the Travellers desired what they saw, and again, what they
desired, they took.

	The discovery of the first garden world impelled the Travellers to even
greater efforts, and over the next five centuries they found more worlds
like the first, all with more humans, and took them all.  Now some of
those worlds they took were also able to travel between stars, and
carried word of the first Travellers outward, and a name became
associated with them, the Sivoloc, and the name became feared wherever it
was uttered.

	After a thousand years, the Sivoloc had stretched their iron fists out
over thousands of worlds, with trillions of subjects scattered across
light years of distance and time.  The Sivoloc still pushed outward,
taking what they wanted, and there was little they didn't want, till one
day, the unthinkable happened.  They met another race, this time an alien
race, the first ever, and this race was not about to be taken like so
many human occupied worlds.  They called themselves the Eexoneez, and
they had the will and the means to resist the Sivoloc.  And resist they
did, with a vengeance.  War was immediate, and total.  

	Over the next century, fire and blood spilled across the stars, no
quarter was asked or given, and billions of people along with hundreds of
worlds died varied and violent deaths.  In the end, the might Sivoloc
Empire lay in ruins, along with much of the Eexoneez worlds as well,
along with many worlds and civilizations who had been unfortunately in
the wrong place at the wrong time.  The great messenger ships stopped
crossing the gulfs, power plants grew cold, worlds returned to their
wildnerness state, and the ruins of towering cities disappeared under
carpets of green flora, or grey ash, or black flowing basaltic melt, and
the bones of uncounted billions were gnawed on by the fauna of hundreds
of worlds.  

	Thousands of years later, humans again are finding their way to the
stars, and finding old forgotten ruins, worlds long dead, and the
skeletons of great ships and cities that once teemed with civilizations. 
They are finding great wonders, and dark nightmares.  Join them, as they
Travel once again among....................

	................................The Scattered Worlds

Jim Clem, GM
TSW@onelist.com
launch date May 17, 1999
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:53:30 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GUN CONTROL

In a message dated 4/27/99 5:58:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< Okay, now I can see the relevance of discussing the recent US school
 tragedy in respect to how it relates to RPG's and the subsequent public
 responses. But please can we keep gun control debates off the list. Not
 only do they not belong here, but its sort of like pouring out kerosene
 and then holding up a lighted match. This is just not a topic that can
 possibly be solved here, and its almost guaranteed to start a nasty little
 flame war.
  >>

I for one have LOTS of responses, but will keep them to private E mail. 
Please keep your counter responses to private E mail also...

Ob Trav: It's interesting that the Imperium keeps their Starport zone law 
level at 4 (?) while member planets go from 0 to 9...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:13:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Stump <rick_stump@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Flashes

> ObTrav: gotta love them unit-specific traditions.
> I'm thinking of the ritual in the US Navy where they
> do a kind of hazing
> for new crewmen the first time they cross the
> equator on a Navy ship.
> Would Marines in the 3I have a similar ritual for
> troopers on their first
> jump? Something to pass the time in the hole.
> 
> I have this image of a rookie climbing into a drop
> capsule while the old
> hands fill it up with something festive, yet
> unpleasant to be doused in. <G>

As a former US soldier, I suggest - red confetti and perfume (so ye'
won't know if yer shot up and we won't know if ye' lost control of yer
bladder!). 
 A tradition from US jump units is that, after qualification, the jump
trainers pound the jumpwings into your chect - with no backing on the
pins (yes, it hurts) and when a jumper becomes a master (x number of
jumps, in Traveller I'd say 5 combat drops) he gets distinctive wings -
which are pounded in by the junior jumper in the unit. When my company
commander made master a private had just joined the unit. He snapped a
pin off in one of the captain's ribs (which was cracked, as well).
 There is also the tradition of 'prepping the stripes'. When someone is
promoted to sergeant before the ceremony he is warmed up; usually 1-2
hours of push-ups, sit-ups, leg raises, etc; followed by the 'prep'
where every existing sergeant in the unit punches him once on each arm
(where the stripes will be pinned). Every NCO in my company came to my
prep - my arms had bruises for a full 6 weeks.

 Military rituals, especially the unit-specific ones of the NCOs, will
be rather physical and probably barbaric to outsiders. In
well-disciplined, professional units the participants will be sore but
not injured - anything that injures harms morale and readiness, after
all.

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:22:04 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Let's not go there (was Re: heavy sigh...)

>>>2) Killers gained access to firearms and information necessary to construct
>>>explosive devices.
>>The question arises, how did the kids get access to those kinds of firearms?
>>Of course, you can practically get AK-47s out of coin-operated vending
>>machines
>    A statement so silly it must be sarcastic.


[snip of anti-gun control discussion in response to pro gun control discussion]

Please note that in my original post, I attempted to focus on my variable
#3 because that was the one relevant to gaming. Please, please, PLEASE do
not turn this into a gun control v. no gun control thread. This is not the
proper forum for this. The first two points were included only for
completeness (they were obvious variables in the killings at Columbine).

I regret mentioning the variables, and apologize to the list.


Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:22:34 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements

>This is an artifact of GT having maintenance go as sqrt(price) - large ships
>need almost
>no maintenance in proportion to their crew, small ships get really really
>shafted. It's
>unfortunate that the single worst point is the canonical type S...I would
>say GT should
>consider changing the scaling somehow - either getting rid of the sqrt, or
>putting in
>options for "high automation" or "low maintenance" ships somehow.
>
>Bruce

I also found the GURPS maintenance rules flawed but decided to modify the a
bit. Maintenance interval goes as sqrt(price) in standard GURPS but I added
that the time for each maintenance job also goes as sqrt(price). The time
in man hours a vehicle would need is thus: time(man hours) = k *
sqrt(price) * sqrt(price) = k*price. I also hold that this doing the ships
maintenance as calculated simply reduces the number of breakdowns; doing
30% maintenance equals +3, 10% maintenance +6 etc. This fits the cliche of
old rustbuckets with next to no maintenace (the crew simply fixes
everything as it breaks down instead).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:41:00 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting

david.d.jaques-watson writes:
>
> I am constantly amazed at the breadth and depth of experience
> on this list.  At the drop of a hat, we can call up detailed
> RW analyses from weapons experts, fusion engineers, particle
> physicists, economists, lawyers, shipbuilders, medicos, and
> more.


Toss in microwave communications, assorted security systems,
computer programming, and game design.  ;-)

> /humour on/
> I have only one gripe - why can't we, together, build a
> Free Trader??  ;-)
> /humour off/

DOE Agent:  "So, are you glad to see me or is that an 
             unlicensed nuclear accelerator you're packing?"
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:45:06 -0400
From: "Wesley Esser" <wesley@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
Subject: Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

Jim Clem Wrote:

Jules Verne, "From the Earth to the Moon"
Is that what a TL3-TL4 Spaceport is like?

Jim Clem Wrote:
>>> 
>>> Here we go folks.  Next thing you hear is that Tampa
>>> is digging a REALLY
>>> BIG hole in the ground outside of town.
>>> 
>>> (quick now, what's the reference?)
>>
>>WoooHoooo! Deep meson!
>
>Ummm, sorry, wrong reference.

>Jim Clem

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:50:19 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Paul Brunette contact information

I now have both of the TNE books (thanks to Carlos Alos-Ferrer)
published by Paul Brunette and am interested in finding the third. 
Apparently GDW never published it, but my guess is that Paul had it at
least outlined.  I would like contact information for Paul if anyone has
it to see if we can get that last third of the story out of him.  It was
to be named The Backwards Mask.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:58:21 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

From: <SRKOALA@aol.com>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 7:43 AM
Subject: T4 stuff


> Hi, I'm new to the list and new to Traveller (an understatement, really)
and
> I'm looking for T4, FF&S, CSC, and Starships (sort of), does anyone know
were
> I can get them?
> -Stephen
>

I got this from Sword Worlder, and also saw it here on the TML:

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

Dear Traveller
I have just received a very large shipment of Marc Miller's Traveller books
and games. I would like to offer them to you at a special price. I now carry
over $13,000 in inventory of products from Marc Miller's Traveller. If you
are
interested in any of these please contact me ASAP, because these will be
going
very fast due to great prices. Here is a list of what I have avaiable. Note
all books are brand new.

MARC MILLER'S TRAVELLER LIST

1. Anomalies retail $22.95  my price $5.95
2. First Survey retail $22.95 my price $5.95
3. Psionic Institutes retail $22.95 my price $5.95
4. Milievo Campaign retail $29.95 my price $7.95
5. Missions of State retail $22.95 my price $5.95
6. Game Screen retail $12.95 my price $2.95
7. Emperor's Aresnal retail $22.95 my price $5.95
8. Milieu O retail $22.95 my price $5.95
9. Long Way Home retail $12.95 my price $2.95
10. Emperor's Vechicles retail $22.95 my price $5.95
11. Aliens Archive retail $22.95 my price $5.95
12. Pocket Empires retail $22.95 my price $5.95
13. Fire, Fusion &Steel retail $22.95 my price $5.95
14. Gateway retail $12.95 my price $2.95
15. Annililik Run retail $12.95 my price $2.95
16. Central Supply Catalog retail $22.95 my price $5.95
17. Naval Architect's Manual retail $22.95 my price $5.95
18. Imperial Squadrons retail $22.95 my price $5.95

Please E-Mail me at MWJ342@aol.com

You pay actual shipping cost I will ship any way you would like
Thanks,
Mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:18:07 -0500
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:08:58
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
> 
> At 10:45 PM 4/26/99 -0400, you wrote:

Sounds like the T-shirt I had while stationed in Germany (1st Armor Div,
1984-85)
that had a picture of Che Guevara and the words "The Last Hero". Drove
my S2 absolutly bonkers...  ;'>
 
> When I was in High School, I wore an offcier's cap from the People'd
> Liberation Army, completes with red star on the brow.  I did this to piss
> people off more than anything else, because it was the early 80s and
> communism was still a legitamate hate target.  I think many of these kids
> get into things like studying nazism and Marilyn Manson just to get a
> reaction out of adults.
> 
> ObTrav: In the Spinward Marches, might teens young adults find the Zhodani
> way of life a way of rebellion?  Marching for psionic rights, demanding
> detente..

Probably wear Ine Gevar (sp?) t-shirts while at said rallies too.

> Douglas E. Berry
> Templar Agent at Large.
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html
> 
> TravGeekCode:
> tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
> ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da

- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you       
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good	    
road and may God's blessing be with you always. 
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:22:41 -0500
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

How bout Jules Verne as in "Earth to the Moon"? (That would be some
_nasty_ G's I would think...

On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Richard Stump
<rick_stump@yahoo.com> writes:
>> 
>> Here we go folks.  Next thing you hear is that Tampa
>> is digging a REALLY
>> BIG hole in the ground outside of town.
>> 
>> (quick now, what's the reference?)
>
>WoooHoooo! Deep meson!

Ummm, sorry, wrong reference.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- - --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

William
- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you       
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good	    
road and may God's blessing be with you always. 
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:22:51 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Flashes

In a message dated 4/27/99 8:17:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
rick_stump@yahoo.com writes:

<<  Military rituals, especially the unit-specific ones of the NCOs, will
 be rather physical and probably barbaric to outsiders. In
 well-disciplined, professional units the participants will be sore but
 not injured - anything that injures harms morale and readiness, after
 all.
  >>

yeah; the US media went ballistic with the "bloodpinning"...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:45:39 -0400
From: "Will Richards" <RichardW@jwfc.js.mil>
Subject: Re: Government Type 6

<< My specific problem is Pretoria (0406 - Pretoria/Deneb) which in 1120 has a
 government type 6 with a population of 7 billion and no other system listed
 as coloniser/owner.  Who's in control ?
  >>

<<The government codes are meant to stimulate the thought process. So, I can 
imagine a government like the British Empire... ruled (and exploited) from 
afar. Or the world was simply colonized 600 years ago from a nearby world and 
never threw off the yoke of the owners.
>>

Or how about this: the Imperium decided that the situation on the world was so
unstable and potentialy distructive (threat of mass destruction to nearby systems) they
had to take control to prevent catastrophy. And they maintain control to this day 
just like on good old Terra! (IIRC)

Will

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:55:48 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements

>>>> (begin quoted material)
One question about GT maintenance requirements - aren't they awfully
large
for small
ships? I'm thinking in particular of the Type S, which canonically can
be
operated by one person
(one tired, stressed person, admittedly) but which now requires 24
man-hours
of maintenance
per day.

Bruce
>>>> (end quoted material)
And you wonder why the air scrubbers tend to go bad?  They tend to be
at the bottom of the maintenance list.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:34:49 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting

At 10:41 AM 4/27/99 -0500, you wrote:
>david.d.jaques-watson writes:
>>
>> I am constantly amazed at the breadth and depth of experience
>> on this list.  At the drop of a hat, we can call up detailed
>> RW analyses from weapons experts, fusion engineers, particle
>> physicists, economists, lawyers, shipbuilders, medicos, and
>> more.
>
>
>Toss in microwave communications, assorted security systems,
>computer programming, and game design.  ;-)
>

There is also graphics design, artistic talent, things military,
electronics, modeling, imageing technology, political science, history,
education, chemistry, movie trivia, literature, and statistics that I can
recall from the last few months discussions.

It's said that the more contratictions that a person can contain within
himself the great the person.  If so then the TML is destined for greatness.

Add philosophy to the list as well...(Grin)

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:30:10 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: Flashes

> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> Subject: re: Flashes

> ObTrav: gotta love them unit-specific traditions.
> I'm thinking of the ritual in the US Navy where they do a kind of hazing
> for new crewmen the first time they cross the equator on a Navy ship.
> Would Marines in the 3I have a similar ritual for troopers on their first
> jump? Something to pass the time in the hole.
> 
> I have this image of a rookie climbing into a drop capsule while the old
> hands fill it up with something festive, yet unpleasant to be doused in.

Hmm ... Marines will be wearing battle dress when they get into jump
capsules, I think, so no substance will really be unpleasant to them. 
Let's think on this for a while.

I'm of course reminded of the drop in Aliens.  "How many combat drops
you done, sir?"  "Two.  One was in a simulator."  "What was the other
one?"  "This is the other one."  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #511
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 512



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

ticking off parents and RPG Paranoia
RPG Paranoia:  clothes
Re: A-10 myth busting 
Re: Jesse DeGraff. 
Re: PbEM announcement, The Scattered Worlds 
Re: A-10 myth busting
Re: T4 stuff
Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Subject Change Request
Jump Troops in the Movies
Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Aces and Eights (1188) &
re:CT and MT Jump Drive and Maneuver Drive Limitations
Re: SCRAM
Re: Patches
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: GT Ghalalk-class Armored Cruiser
T4 Product Evaluation request
[BITS] 101 Starships
Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]
Re: PbEM announcement, The Scattered Worlds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:26:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: ticking off parents and RPG Paranoia

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

> ObTrav: In the Spinward Marches, might teens young adults find the Zhodani
> way of life a way of rebellion?  Marching for psionic rights, demanding
> detente..

I'm a little rushed just now, but remind me (via email if you'd like)
and I'll write a press release from the University of Rhylanor's
Students for Academic Freedom setting forth their demand for academic
consideration of at least the cultural anthropology aspect of psionics
in society.  

On a related note, "My parents can read my mind" or "my boy/girlfriend
can read my mind" convey something more than exasperation or intimacy,
respectively, in the post-Psionics Suppression Imperium.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:33:08 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: RPG Paranoia:  clothes

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia:  clothes

> >> Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully concealed a
> .32
> >> ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.

> >Would you mind showing us that particular concealed carry at the
> >Baycon/Denny's dinner?
> 
> You really want to ruin you appetite?

Umm ... maybe I've thought better of this idea.  I'll just let my
imagination run wild.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:50:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting 

> >/humour on/
> >I have only one gripe - why can't we, together, build a Free Trader??  ;-)
> >/humour off/
> 
> We have all the knowledge to easily build a Free trader for peanut money -
> only problem is that we cannot agree on what design system to use ;-)

High Guard 2nd Edition, of course!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:53:52 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Jesse DeGraff. 

> In a message dated 4/26/99 9:06:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> rogerbarr@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> << As far as I can tell, he is offline for now.
>  I have several addresses for him, work and home, and I'm getting no 
>  reply.
>  I know his home ISP was having real serious issues involving down 
>  time...
>   >>
> 
> He's on vacation...

Figgers.  I sent in some stuff for my character in Roger's PBEM & now it won't 
get posted for awhile.  <sigh>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:11:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: PbEM announcement, The Scattered Worlds 

<Advert snipped>

Jim, what's the URL of the new web page?  I tried the old one on Geocities, 
but it's something else now...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:13:23 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting

In a message dated 99-04-27 13:38:38 EDT, you write:

<< There is also graphics design, artistic talent, things military,
 electronics, modeling, imageing technology, political science, history,
 education, chemistry, movie trivia, literature, and statistics that I can
 recall from the last few months discussions.
 
 It's said that the more contratictions that a person can contain within
 himself the great the person.  If so then the TML is destined for greatness.
 
 Add philosophy to the list as well...(Grin) >>

You could add 4th Place winner in a local science fair for work on coil guns, 
if you like.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:17:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

In a message dated 99-04-27 12:02:07 EDT, you write:

<< I got this from Sword Worlder, and also saw it here on the TML:
 
 Shawn Campbell
 electric-stitch@w-link.net
 IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)
 
 Dear Traveller
 I have just received a very large shipment of Marc Miller's Traveller books
 and games. I would like to offer them to you at a special price. I now carry
 over $13,000 in inventory of products from Marc Miller's Traveller. If you
 are
 interested in any of these please contact me ASAP, because these will be
 going
 very fast due to great prices. Here is a list of what I have avaiable. Note
 all books are brand new.
 
 MARC MILLER'S TRAVELLER LIST

[snip] 

 Please E-Mail me at MWJ342@aol.com
 
 You pay actual shipping cost I will ship any way you would like
 Thanks,
 Mark >>

He's out of the products that I'm looking for, any other ideas?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:31:40 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements

> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:54:18 -0700
> From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Re: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
> 
> This is an artifact of GT having maintenance go as sqrt(price) - large
ships
> need almost
> no maintenance in proportion to their crew, small ships get really really
> shafted. It's
> unfortunate that the single worst point is the canonical type S...I would
> say GT should
> consider changing the scaling somehow - either getting rid of the sqrt,
or
> putting in
> options for "high automation" or "low maintenance" ships somehow.

It's already there -- that's why the formula in FT is a ratio between
original (list) price and actual purchase price. If you pay less than list
for a ship (buy it used or something), the maintenance is higher than a new
vessel. If you pay more than list for a ship, the maintenance is lower.
GURPS Vehicles (p. 204?) calls these options "Cheap" and "Fine" (or "Very
Fine"), respectively. The implication is that the quality of the vehicle
should be set at the time of construction, but I extended the rule to cover
used vessels.

One simple fix for your Scout is to say that she has Fine construction, but
that the cost remains the same due to the huge volume the Imperium
contracts to buy (*wave hands as appropriate*). Then recalculate the
maintenance requirement as if the ship cost twice list price.

The maintenance system in GURPS Vehicles is extremely abstract, and covers
a multitude of TL's and types of vehicles in a single rule. Some grittiness
is a necessary result.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:36:20 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia


>I'll speak up as someone who is fascinated by the Nazi era, and studies it
>closely.  This does mean I admire anything they did, it's just an amazing
>period of world history.


From reading my comments, you probably understand that I'm not saying that
an interest in the nazi regime is bad. I am simply of the opinion that the
fascination was confused with the kids being "neo-nazis".

>When I was in High School, I wore an offcier's cap from the People'd
>Liberation Army, completes with red star on the brow.  I did this to piss
>people off more than anything else, because it was the early 80s and
>communism was still a legitamate hate target.  I think many of these kids
>get into things like studying nazism and Marilyn Manson just to get a
>reaction out of adults.


Personally, I was fond of West German army gear. It wasn't because I had a
desire to bother anyone though. It was simply because German army gear looks
nifty.

I do think that alot of these kids get into stuff to get a reaction out of
their parents. It makes me wonder though, 'cause my own parents were very
liberal with what I was listening to and doing, yet I listened to the
equivilant of Marilyn Manson in my day...

>ObTrav: In the Spinward Marches, might teens young adults find the Zhodani
>way of life a way of rebellion?  Marching for psionic rights, demanding
>detente..


That's a fantastic idea. Best I've heard in the ObTravs from this line of
reasoning.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:41:54 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

>>Strange - in the UK, when the Dunblane attack happened we *banned* 
>>handguns, not the jeans or jacket the murderer was wearing.
>>ObTrav: Different cultures respond differently to the same problem. The 
>>impact of the response may be more or less effective.
>
>    According the the London Times, violent crime is on the rise in the UK.
>Perhaps it has something to do with people rather than objects.

And at the same time, violent crime in many parts of the US (Including New
York City!) is at a record low....   The truth is, there are plenty of ways
to kill people, if you've decided to kill.  People have been killed with
guns, knives, baseball (and, I suspect cricket ones, too) bats, cars, lead
pipes, shovels, and just about anything else you can imagine.  Guns do make
it a bit easier, but it's the decision to kill that is the problem, not the
tool you use that's at fault.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:45:26 PDT
From: "Nicholas Sylvain" <n_sylvain@hotmail.com>
Subject: Jump Troops in the Movies

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:30:10 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: Flashes

(snip)

I'm of course reminded of the drop in Aliens.  "How many
combat drops you done, sir?"  "Two.  One was in a simulator."  
"What was the other one?"  "This is the other one."  

- --

I have a mind filled with movie lines and trivia, so I am
compelled to quote the scene accurately, if you don't
mind. :)

Ripley asks how many drops the Lt. has made before.

"Thirty-seven." (pause) "Simulated."

Vasquez interjects.  "How many *combat* drops?"

(pause) "Two." (pause) "Including this one."

There, I feel better now. (grin)



- -- 
Nicholas Sylvain (n_sylvain@hotmail.com) 
Assistant Prosecuting Attorney 
Montgomery County, Ohio 


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:49:32 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
> I have this image of a rookie climbing into a drop capsule while the old
> hands fill it up with something festive, yet unpleasant to be doused in.

Hmm ... Marines will be wearing battle dress when they get into jump
capsules, I think, so no substance will really be unpleasant to them. 
Let's think on this for a while.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was imagining this ritual taking place during the rookie's first venture
into jump space, so he wouldn't be prepping for a real drop - unless
his squadmates were totally fed up with him already.

The few accounts I've heard of the "cross the equator" party in the Navy
seemed to indicate great fun for everyone, with a little discomfort on the
part of the newbie. Popping him in a drop capsule and half-filling it with
ice-cold beer might fit the ticket, though the red confetti and perfume
idea had merit.

Imagine this: The Corporal takes the Recruit down to the Drop Bay right
after the transport goes to jumpspace. As a "Training Excercise", he
loads the Recruit into a "Special Capsule" and dogs him in tight. The
Recruit been told that this capsule is a Combat Drop Simulator.

A bunch of brawny Marines (with battle dress)? then come in, pick up
the capsule and roll it around the Drop Bay as violently as practical.
Meanwhile, the festive yet unpleasant substance the Corporal slipped
into the Recruit's capsule gets nicely shaken, not stirred.

When the Marines get tired of tossing the capsule around, they let the
Recruit out so he can join the post-hazing party.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:02:57 GMT
From: "Sir Perceval" <perceval01@hotmail.com>
Subject: Aces and Eights (1188) &

Aces over Eights are known as "the dead man's hand" in stud poker 
because Wild Bill Hickock (sp?) was shot in the back while holding 
that hand.  He died.

P.S. I have finals this week and next, wish me luck!

Perceval

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:13:08 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:CT and MT Jump Drive and Maneuver Drive Limitations

"Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Is the J6 limit for Jump drives and the 6G limit for thruster plates just
>arbitrary numbers?  Are there any traveller sources (besides FFS1) that
>discuss faster drives?

FFS2 produces similar results to FFS1. IIRC you could use the COACC and
Hard Times MT design sequences to produce ships faster than 6g for a
limited time.

M Drives - In CT and MT starship M-Drives are limited to 6G. In T4 and TNE
this is not the case. Unsure of GT. There is an argument that you could
handwave T-Plates being limited to a max of 6G with a boost HEPlaR drive
for combat.

In all versions of Traveller's canon universes jumps beyong 6 parsecs are
not controllable - they may happen from misjump, but not otherwise.
Grandfather may have ways around this ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:42:03 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>As I noted elsewhere, this leaves one *hell* of a mess to clean up, as
>the reactor is going to "run funny" until you get all that boron out of
>it.

IIRC if you use the pellets/powder on an AGR you'll never get it working
again because they are so dispersed. I'm sure you could get it working, but
the cost is counter productive.

Of course, the UK prototype Fast breeder was run without any cooling
systems on and stabilised about 100 deg C (IIRC) hotter than normal, using
natural convection. Shame the Pu use makes it unpopular.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:32:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Patches

 "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Don't know if it will help, but BITS did a set of patches a while ago and
>might either still do them or have patterns available.

We did a promo set, and we have some left.

4518th, some scout ones and and a Sunburst IIRC.

Dom (BITS webmaster)



- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:23:23 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

Heretic "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> writes:
>Thank you, snide answer and all. I can't say I've heard of a cubic mere,
>though. ;-p

It's a cube shaped lake where fish are bred. As this post is about fusion,
they probably use some kind of heat exchange system which discharges low
grade heated water into the mere, encouraging growth of a fish and plant
population. Strange...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:48:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>	This is the policy at the school where I teach, and I find it
>appalling.   To demand that someone not defend himself when attacked is the
>height of oatmeal-headedness.

UK teachers are advised *not* to touch pupils, even if separating them in a
fight. This is because of the risk of the pupil's parent pressing an
assault suit.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:50:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Ghalalk-class Armored Cruiser

Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Likewise, a spinal mount requires a single gunner. (Yup, seems odd to me
>too, but that's the ruling from David Pulver.)

!!!!

In HG2 a spinal needs 50 personnel!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:10:38 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: T4 Product Evaluation request

"Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:

>Anomalies

Not got this, but allegedly there are some flaws...

>Emperor's Arsenal

Useful resource with loads of weapons - a basic book

>Emperor's Vehicles

Avoid designs are flawed - no TLs etc..

>Long Way Home
>Gateway

BITS adventure module republished and messed up by IG in two parts, and
upaid for. Originally available as 'The Long Way Home' - it is an adventure
which reminds me of ST Voyager. The IG printing messes up the ship
deckplans. The BITS version is now out of print.

>Fire, Fusion, & Steel

Ok if you have errata and like that kind of thing...

>Annilik Run

Avoid like the plague. nothing like the original submission by CORE. Became
D&D in space. Non-canon and lousy.

>Central Supply Catalog

Another excellent basic book - equipment and vehicles.

>Naval Architect's Manual

Okay deckplans. Some are flawed and a little inconsistent with canon, but
that tends to be in the descriptive text.

>Imperial Squadron

Good naval background stuff, plus rules to integrate the FFW combat system
with Pocket Empires

>Looking for the better written, more consistent/canonical,
>add-a-lot-to-my-campaign type of supplements.

I'd recommend EA, CSC for the ref as resources. TLWH/GWY as a module set,
IS to mine for ideas for navy campaigns.

Get the vehicles from the BITS sites 102 vehicles download
http://www.bits.org.uk/

IMO the best T4 books are:

MO Campaign (hardback)
Aliens Archive
Pocket Empires
Psionic Institutes

Close seconds-
CSC
EA
Imperial Sqdns

Avoid-
Annililik Run
EV
about 75% of MoS.
Starships

- -
Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:55:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] 101 Starships

"Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> writes:

>does anyone know where I can get this I didn't see it listed on the SJG
>page? I know they are distributing BITS products?

101 Starships is a free acrobat file which may be downloaded from the
archive page at

http://www.bits.org.uk/

Rob Prior wrote the file, which is a great resource for GT.

The BITS website is now linked from the SJG Traveller Links pages.

Dom (BITS webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:25:39 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

>At 02:06 PM 4/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>> Every school shooter that has ripped apart communities across this country
>>> hasn't played tabletop RPGs. All of them did not play Doom or Quake. Not
>>> all of them dressed in black trenchcoats. They don't seem to share the same
>>> taste in music or film. Not all of them are avid World War II buffs. What
>>> is the common denominator here? In case after case, we hear *from other
>>> students* that these children were teased and ostracized by their
>>> classmates for a variety of reasons.
>>
>>That, and the fact that they are all middle or upper middle class
>>suburban kids.  Maybe all that exposure to cars, single family homes,
>>and shopping malls is just too much for some people.
>
>A local talk-radio host pointed out that all of the kids involved in recent
>school shootings had been Christians, and said that if we wanted to
>scapegoat anybody, that was the only connection.  He was being sarcastic,
>but was flooded with angry calls anyway.
>--

The other common factor (pointed out on NPR) related to their middle-upper
middle class status is the availability of a private space in which to
stockpile materials out of sight of even the other residents of their home.

Kids in, say, a high rise apartment building would not have the luxury of
such space.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:29:38 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: PbEM announcement, The Scattered Worlds

It will be at http://www.geocities.com/area51/stargate/2891/

Eventually.  Hopefully before the next week is out.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:11:05 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
><Advert snipped>
>
>Jim, what's the URL of the new web page?  I tried the old one on 
>Geocities, 
>but it's something else now...
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh 
>sy
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------
>                                                     Science-Fiction 
>Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>

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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #512
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 513



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
re: Hazing Rituals
CT character gen programs
Re: PbEM announcement, The Scattered Worlds 
Market it right and it's not smuggling...
Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling... 
Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Aces and Eights (1188) &
Re: A-10 myth busting 
Re: GTL9 Modules: a request
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: GUN CONTROL
Re: heavy sigh... 
Cultures, Gun control and so on...
Re: A-10 myth busting 
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia 
Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements 
something to keep in mind when designing staterooms...
Re: PbEM announcement, The Scattered Worlds
Re: T4 Product Evaluation request
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:25:19 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

In a message dated 99-04-27 15:00:14 EDT, you write:

<< A bunch of brawny Marines (with battle dress)? then come in, pick up
 the capsule and roll it around the Drop Bay as violently as practical.
 Meanwhile, the festive yet unpleasant substance the Corporal slipped
 into the Recruit's capsule gets nicely shaken, not stirred. >>

Just make shure that he (or she, I assume that gender equality in the armed 
forces has happend, with the advent of such tech as Power Armour) does not 
choke to death on the substance.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:45:10 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Hazing Rituals

Stephen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
<< A bunch of brawny Marines (with battle dress)? then come in, pick up
 the capsule and roll it around the Drop Bay as violently as practical.
 Meanwhile, the festive yet unpleasant substance the Corporal slipped
 into the Recruit's capsule gets nicely shaken, not stirred. >>

Just make shure that he (or she, I assume that gender equality in the armed 
forces has happend, with the advent of such tech as Power Armour) does not 
choke to death on the substance.
>>>>>>>>>
Use small quantities, the rolling action will be enough to douse the
Recruit, no need to drown them.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:51:06 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: CT character gen programs

Does anybody know the Url for any Character generation programs for CT?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:49:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: PbEM announcement, The Scattered Worlds 

> ><Advert snipped>
> >
> >Jim, what's the URL of the new web page?  I tried the old one on 
> >Geocities, 
> >but it's something else now...
>
> It will be at http://www.geocities.com/area51/stargate/2891/
> 
> Eventually.  Hopefully before the next week is out.

Can you whack out the popups?  From what I gather, Geocities only requires the branding now.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:58:49 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Market it right and it's not smuggling...

No, really!

Somebody on one of the OT threads mention a variety of dangerous objects,
including cricket bats.
I picked one up while I was in Joburg last year.  Brought it on the
airplane in my carry on luggage (with the handle sticking out of the bag.)
It's got a great feel to the swing (English Willow hand carved in India).
I've been modifying Chinese broadsword forms for it.

In a high law level area, sporting goods can be a great asset in a riot.
Ban on knives, bring in religious items.  Ceremonial blades for Wiccan
services.  Just make sure these can take a good edge once you get them in.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
           Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:04:43 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling... 

> No, really!
> 
> Somebody on one of the OT threads mention a variety of dangerous objects,
> including cricket bats.
> I picked one up while I was in Joburg last year.  Brought it on the
> airplane in my carry on luggage (with the handle sticking out of the bag.)
> It's got a great feel to the swing (English Willow hand carved in India).
> I've been modifying Chinese broadsword forms for it.
> 
> In a high law level area, sporting goods can be a great asset in a riot.
> Ban on knives, bring in religious items.  Ceremonial blades for Wiccan
> services.  Just make sure these can take a good edge once you get them in.

Heheh.  Cute.  And workable.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:11:16 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...

At 03:58 PM 4/27/99 -0400, you wrote:
>No, really!
>
>Somebody on one of the OT threads mention a variety of dangerous objects,
>including cricket bats.
>I picked one up while I was in Joburg last year.  Brought it on the
>airplane in my carry on luggage (with the handle sticking out of the bag.)
>It's got a great feel to the swing (English Willow hand carved in India).
>I've been modifying Chinese broadsword forms for it.
>
>In a high law level area, sporting goods can be a great asset in a riot.
>Ban on knives, bring in religious items.  Ceremonial blades for Wiccan
>services.  Just make sure these can take a good edge once you get them in.

According to one Martial Artist I've spoken to, the greatest melee weapon
of the 20th Century is a golf club with a strong/reinforced handle.... It's
light and has good reach, and is balanced in such a way that you can do a
great deal of damage with the head.  A low iron is probably best... :)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:09:57
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

Hazing rituals shouldn't be destructive or overly embarrassing, just a
reminder that "you aren't one of us.. yet."  The Navy's shellback ceremony
is actually a lot of fun, from what I've heard, and the Airborne cherry
helmet gets you a lot of ribbing but no real threat.

We had a thread a while back on the macguffin hunts units would send
newbies on, and I think these types of tricks would be the most common.


- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:00:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

At 11:18 AM 4/27/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Sounds like the T-shirt I had while stationed in Germany (1st Armor Div,
>1984-85) that had a picture of Che Guevara and the words "The Last Hero". 
>Drove my S2 absolutly bonkers...  ;'>

hehehehe..  Try having a few hundred hours of Grateful Dead tapes and the
complete set of Rip-Off Press comic books, including the Fabulous Furry
Freak Brothers Go Abroad!, in your barracks room.

- -- 

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:04:07
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Aces and Eights (1188) &

At 07:02 PM 4/27/99 GMT, you wrote:
>Aces over Eights are known as "the dead man's hand" in stud poker 
>because Wild Bill Hickock (sp?) was shot in the back while holding 
>that hand.  He died.

What's interesting is that Wild Bill refused to sit with his back to the
door.  The onlt seat avalible at the fatal game was one that gave him this
position, and his lust for gambling overcame his paranoia.

Oops.
>
>P.S. I have finals this week and next, wish me luck!

Luck!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:02:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting 

At 01:50 PM 4/27/99 -0400, you wrote:

>> We have all the knowledge to easily build a Free trader for peanut money -
>> only problem is that we cannot agree on what design system to use ;-)
>
>High Guard 2nd Edition, of course!

Reactionary!  FFS2 is the One True Gearhead System!  
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:14:35 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GTL9 Modules: a request

> Well, HEPlar was a hand-wave to get away from reactionless thrusters. I
> seem to remember that one of the physics blokes worked out that it is too
> efficient for the discharge energy, or something like that.

Um... No.  It was a desire to get away from as much magic-tech as possible 
and fundamental law breaking as possible.  There are some good 
handwaves/supposed technologies that can explain HEPlaRs extremely good 
efficiency.  Plasma Focus, Blacklight, and Zero point energy to name 3 and 
aren't nearly the stretch that T-plates are.  YMMV.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:14:36 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

I've been avoiding this thread, as it just don't interest me.  

> The question arises, how did the kids get access to those kinds of firearms?
> Of course, you can practically get AK-47s out of coin-operated vending
> machines in most of the USA. 

Are you trolling?  I'll play if you really want to.  :-)  That has got to be 
a troll...

> My apologies in advance to the American members on this
> mailing list, but if these kids of weapons were restricted to begin with,
> the tragedy could have been averted. I saw a list of the weapons they had --
> most of which are, in Canada, illegal for a private citizen to own. 

It's a shame for Canadians, then.  And for all the disarmed proles of Europe.

You'd have preferred if they hacked up a dozen schoolmates w/ knives or 
hatchets?  If i wanted to kill a dozen people, especially in a school, I 
*could* do so pretty effectively w/ just a good combat knife and the sick 
intentions to do so (which I thankfully lack).  Odds are I could chase down 
as many more, too, especially fat bodies or poor runners.  

Hell, I want California to relax its concealed weapons laws.  The credible 
studies show that responsible citizens w/ guns bring crime down.  The 
criminals get guns anyways.  There was just a good thread on this on USENET 
that cited many good references (rec.games.frp.misc, aside from the usual 
places).  If u want, I'll list em.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:18:15 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GUN CONTROL

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> Sorry for shouting, but I think this is rather important.
>
> Okay, now I can see the relevance of discussing the recent US school
> tragedy in respect to how it relates to RPG's and the subsequent public
> responses. But please can we keep gun control debates off the list.

Lucky me.  I've been ignoring certain threads and haven't
had to deal with this bugbear.  :-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:39:29 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: heavy sigh... 

> 1988-1993 Britain enacts strict new firearms laws.
> 1988 - 93: The number of violent crimes increased by 33.6 per cent.
> 1988 - 93: The number of robberies increased by 80.6 per cent.
> 1988 - 93: the number of robberies with a firearm increased by 117 per cent.

1988 - 93 (and several years preceding 1988) - major economic recession. By 
1993 the UK had 3.9m children living in poverty (worse than any other EU 
state) and by certain definitions 23% of the population living in poverty.

I don't think anyone with any sense thinks banning firearms is going to 
radically reduce crime, since the majority of firearms used in crimes are not 
legally held (before 1988 ownership required a license which had to be 
approved by the police, so it's unlikely that clampdowns on such ownership 
would make a serious dent in the statistics). On the other hand I don't think 
anyone with any sense believes that relaxing the gun laws is going to reduce 
crime either.

However the killing sprees by crazed loners which have triggered the various 
legislative acts (the latest being Dunblane, resulting in laws passed against 
handguns in 1996-7) were committed using legally held firearms, and the view 
(according to the opinion polls, which heavily supported these laws) has been 
that depriving everyone else is a price worth paying for the (statistically 
small) number of lives that are likely to be saved. Sure, crazed loners will 
still go on sprees, but hopefully they'll use knives instead of guns, and kill 
less people. Runs the argument.

A quote I found with the above statistics: 
"crime has grown least in those European countries where discrepancies of 
wealth and opportunity
are lowest, or where governments have worked to ameliorate the effects of 
globalisation and de-industrialisation upon the most vulnerable."

ObTrav - the general crime level is likely to be a function more of the 
economic/social structure of a system than of its law level.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:32:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Cultures, Gun control and so on...

Gentles all,

A few responses amalgamated to focus the 'white heat':

Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> writes:
>> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>> Strange - in the UK, when the Dunblane attack happened we *banned*
>> handguns, not the jeans or jacket the murderer was wearing.
>
>Here's a good example of why the American colonies felt that they had to
>become independent of Britain.  We just stopped being able to understand
>one another.

I think that you should read the post carefully before assuming what I meant.

My post was commenting on an earlier poster's response describing how 'goth
clothing' and 'trench coats' were being banned in response to the shootings
in Colorado. A similar incident in the UK had prompted an entirely
different response. In both cases the cause (disaffected or mentally ill
people) is not being addressed. The US solution is to stamp on the
subculture which used the weapons to kill, the UK response being to reduce
the availability of weapons (specifically hand guns) which the
subculture/group used.

The initial UK response considered keeping handguns available for sport but
the banning lobby won, probably because the gun lobby argued against any
restrictions.

Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com> also writes:

>    According the the London Times, violent crime is on the rise in the UK.
>Perhaps it has something to do with people rather than objects.

Two points on that. The Times is almost a tabloid these days, nothing like
it's previous self. A sad effect of Murdoch's ownership. Violent crime in
certain areas is rising as a percentage, but IIRC overall, numbers of
incidents fell. Anyway we could argue statistics all week. The issue you
may wish to consider is that what we perceive as violent crime may differ
from what US citizen's consider violent. We certainly have significantly
lower levels of crimes involving fire arms.

The second point is true. People kill other people with guns. Guns in
themselves do not kill. They are an object.

However, if you cannot avoid people who are unstable, or disturbed, or who
have criminal intent obtaining weapons which are designed solely to deliver
enough Kinetic Energy to kill or maim and using them, you may need to
consider the rules under which society makes such weapons available. UK law
bans handguns and semi-autos / full autos on the basis that there is a need
for shotguns and hunting rifles, but no real need for pistols and assault
rifles/SMGs.

j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com> wrote:
><rant mode>
>A heavy sigh indeed.  I dont care how many laws anyone passes, if someone
>wants to go psycho and start killing folks, all the darn laws in the
>world wont stop em.  Its already against the law to kill people, and for
>minors to purchase weapons.  Of course our nanny government will try
>their best to pass new ones now, since its for our own good of course,
>not that impending elections has anything to do with it.

Now, my feeling is that effective enforcement of existing laws (may with a
slight extension to how weapons are stored) would be more effective than
passing new legisilation which would be to all intents bypassed.

>sorry for the people suffering in Colorado, but darn it, its time to stop
>whining about guns and games and movies and start raising our kids right
>and taking responsibility for them and teaching them to take
>responsibility for themselves.

Absolutely - this is the crux of the overall problem.

>What next, do we start outlawing
>chemistry classes??  I can go in my house and create at least four types
>of weapons on hand right now.  I have two kids, and I damn well go
>through their rooms covertly, and will confront them about ANYTHING that
>is not right, ethical, proper, or simply out of character that I find.  I
>also censor their TV viewing, book reading, and anything else that comes
>along.  (their only 7 and 10, but it starts early)  It is MY
>responsibility to raise them to be good and productive citizens, and I'll
>be damned if the current government is going to tell me how to do it.  I
>own weapons and my kids know it, and know not to bother them.  They know
>what they'll do to a person.  And when they're old enough and strong
>enough to handle them, I'll teach them how to use them as well.  It is a
>fact that states here that have the most lax gun control laws also have
>the lowest crime rates, by as much as 30 % in some cases.

I'll ignore the statistic for reasons I have said above, but otherwise I
agree with you. A sense of responsibility and duty is absent in today's
society. We can do things about it.

></rant>
>Sorry, I had to let that fly.  I feel better now.

Anytime.

"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:

>Sorry for shouting, but I think this is rather important.
>
>Okay, now I can see the relevance of discussing the recent US school
>tragedy in respect to how it relates to RPG's and the subsequent public
>responses. But please can we keep gun control debates off the list. Not
>only do they not belong here, but its sort of like pouring out kerosene
>and then holding up a lighted match. This is just not a topic that can
>possibly be solved here, and its almost guaranteed to start a nasty little
>flame war.

Agreed.

Some final thoughts:

My original post should have been reconsidered in the light of the
likelihood that someone would misread it and go off half cocked. The
thought behind it was to highlight a similar problem resolved in different
ways. Admittedly, I find the banning of the clothing etc sublimely
ridiculous (if it wasn't serious) compared to what I see as a more
practical approach. I don't necessarily think that the UK's approach will
work in the US. At best you could tighten how guns are held - they're too
widespread to remove the problem of nutters through a ban. I know some
would see this an invasion of their liberties (a true liberal position) but
is there a responsibility you owe society? That's something you have to
decide yourself.

From an outsider's perspective the argument appears to be based around a
very old document written in a period of war and its aftermath, combined
with a focus on the rights of the individual against the rights of society.
You may not like that, but that's how it comes across. And I believe that
the quote 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one'
is appropriate. But fundamentally, whatever solution arrives has to be your
own.

Now, on to the point assumed: Several respondants assumed that I wanted a
ban on handguns. I didn't, but I wanted a better control system to be
legally adopted (such as locked cabinets). Of course this may be almost as
bad in the eyes of some people, but at least it keeps pistols available for
use. If you still feel a need for a weapon to protect yourself, should you
not consider what it is that makes society such that you have this need,
and the ways to effectively prevent this (as opposed to curing it with the
use of prisons and fire against fire)?

No doubt I'll get a few flames for this, but feel free to send them to my
home address (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com) not the TML.

Regards,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:34:47 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting 

> At 01:50 PM 4/27/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >> We have all the knowledge to easily build a Free trader for peanut money -
> >> only problem is that we cannot agree on what design system to use ;-)
> >
> >High Guard 2nd Edition, of course!
> 
> Reactionary!  FFS2 is the One True Gearhead System!  

"There is but one Game, Traveller, and High Guard is its Product."

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:37:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia 

> At 11:18 AM 4/27/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Sounds like the T-shirt I had while stationed in Germany (1st Armor Div,
> >1984-85) that had a picture of Che Guevara and the words "The Last Hero". 
> >Drove my S2 absolutly bonkers...  ;'>
> 
> hehehehe..  Try having a few hundred hours of Grateful Dead tapes and the
> complete set of Rip-Off Press comic books, including the Fabulous Furry
> Freak Brothers Go Abroad!, in your barracks room.

That'd work.  Be a real bitch, tho, to pack 'em up for bivouac.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:42:29 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements 

> The maintenance system in GURPS Vehicles is extremely abstract, and covers
> a multitude of TL's and types of vehicles in a single rule. Some grittiness
> is a necessary result.

I've always been fond of TNE's (duh!).  :-)   Based off've mass and already 
takes tech level into account.  Different types of vehicles will have very 
different masses (tanks, warships mass much more than ground cars and 
transports and traders, etc).  

Couple w/ the wear value rules, I think this works for very well, though i 
have only the required MP to prevent all mishaps.  It's when that's not done 
that things start to go wrong... : )  Also decided that a m3 was needed for 
each maintenance point for a full year of maintenance supplies (lubrication, 
spare o-rings, etc).  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:48:16 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: something to keep in mind when designing staterooms...

http://cnn.com/TECH/ptech/9904/27/japan.brainyhomes.ap/

CNN article on new high tech homes in Japan.

The toliets weigh you and measure your blood sugar level.
Cameras and motion detectors track you through the place...

Didn't Greg Bear come up with the idea of toliets being part of the house
autodoc system in one of his books about 2 years ago?


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Meatspace" - The physical world (as opposed to the virtual world), also 
"carbon community."
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:00:17 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: PbEM announcement, The Scattered Worlds

On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:49:05 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:

>Can you whack out the popups?  From what I gather, Geocities only 
>requires the branding now.
>
>Keven

As soon as I find out how, I've got my Monarch class battlewagon ready
with her class T meson mount. 

Nuke dem popups!!

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:14:13 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Product Evaluation request

In a message dated 99-04-27 15:23:21 EDT, you write:

<< http://www.bits.org.uk/ >>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:39:10 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/27/99 1:25:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< the Fabulous Furry
 Freak Brothers  >>

my favorite comic when I was 8-12! I read the counselors copies at summer 
camp. It also helped that we were 20 minutes from Woodstock...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:55:59 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...

Juliean Galak wrote:

> >In a high law level area, sporting goods can be a great asset in a riot.

I prefer the good ol' Rugby Scruminator Mark I, i.e., big wide head for
bashing with.  ;-)

> According to one Martial Artist I've spoken to, the greatest melee weapon
> of the 20th Century is a golf club with a strong/reinforced handle.... It's
> light and has good reach, and is balanced in such a way that you can do a
> great deal of damage with the head.  A low iron is probably best... :)

I wouldn't go below a 2 Iron.  Its impossible to hit anything with
a 1 Iron.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:12:26 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509

Ian, outstanding idea.  The IISS has doubtlessly discovered/surveyed many
new worlds, and as the Imperium itself is the discoverer, the Iridium Throne
can merely lease these worlds to interested parties (corporations,
colonists, etc.) ensuring itself a source of income in perpetuity, in
addition to taking a cut of the gross world product.

Adventure hook:  PCs are sucked into a "kill the landlord!" revolt on a
remote agricultural world.  The world government has to pay double fees (1.
leasing the world itself 2. % of GWP) and squeezes the farmers.  Both taxes
are perfectly legal, and pretty fair, too, but they take a bite out of the
ruling clique's comfortable lifestyle, so the rulers take it out of the
farmers' meager profits.  The characters can be mercenaries brought in to
crush the rebels and restore order, or they can be Imperial Marines sent in
to crush the rebels, restore order, then rebuild the government and
population's faith in the Imperium...they'll have to do some slick talking
to separate the Imperium's perfectly legitimate taxes (fine farmers, you
underwrite the next Frontier War) and the ruling clique's opressive methods
of keeping themselves comfortable.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #513
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 514



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
Subsectors names for the Corridor sector 
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
re: GT Maintenance crews
Re: White Globes
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: T4 stuff
Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...
Re: RPG Paranoia
RE: Legal Records...
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: FYI - USENET Traveller sale..
Re: More about Imperial taxes
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Nazi Obsessions (Was: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:10:15 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements

Christopher Thrash said:

> > This is an artifact of GT having maintenance go as sqrt(price) - 
large
> ships
> > need almost
> > no maintenance in proportion to their crew, small ships get really
> > really shafted. It's unfortunate that the single worst point is the
> > canonical type S...I would say GT should consider changing the scaling
> > somehow - either getting rid of the sqrt,
> or
> > putting in
> > options for "high automation" or "low maintenance" ships somehow.
> 
> It's already there -- that's why the formula in FT is a ratio between
> original (list) price and actual purchase price. If you pay less than list
> for a ship (buy it used or something), the maintenance is higher than a
> new vessel. If you pay more than list for a ship, the maintenance is
> lower. GURPS Vehicles (p. 204?) calls these options "Cheap" and "Fine" (or
> "Very Fine"), respectively. The implication is that the quality of the
> vehicle should be set at the time of construction, but I extended the rule
> to cover used vessels.
> 

But what happens if you win the ship in a poker game (or floating in 
an asteroid belt)? The actual purchase price is zero!!  Which means 
... hey, wait a minute, whaddaya mean my maintenance 
requirements are infinite?!?! I'm getting shafted here.  I haven't got 
the life support available for an infinite number of people!

I know, I know, you and I have already been over this (somewhat) ... 
just couldn't resist :)


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:26:12 -0700
From: Keith Johnson <kejohnson@2xtreme.net>
Subject: Subsectors names for the Corridor sector 

This is what I have found: 

Corridor Sector by Subsectors 
A - Khouth 
B - Khukish 
C - Lemish 
D - The Narrows 
E - Ian 
F - Strand 
G - Naadi 
H - Uanti 
I - Shush 
J - ??? 
K - ??? 
L - Kivu 
M - Two Worlds 
N - Ashishinipar 
O - Sinta 
P - Sashrakusha 

Is this accurate? What is the name of subsector J & K? 

Do the Subsectors have different names between differant eras? Did the 3rd
Imperium establish Subsector names, or has they been inherited from the 1st
Imperium or Rule of Man? 

Heck, anyone have a clue how why the Zhodani, Aslan, K'Kree or Hivers are
using the Sector/Subsector model?
___________________________________________________
Keith Johnson 
keith@sjgames.com
kejohnson@2xtreme.net

Assistant Webmaster 
Steve Jackson Games
http://www.sjgames.com

IMTU tm+ t4+@ tg+$ ru-- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+

"You have brains in your head.
You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself any direction you choose.
You're on your own.
And you know what you know.
And YOU are the guy who'll decide where to go."
- -- "Oh, the Places You'll Go!" by Dr. Seuss

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:32:25 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-04-27 15:00:14 EDT, you write:
> 
> << A bunch of brawny Marines (with battle dress)? then come in, pick up
>  the capsule and roll it around the Drop Bay as violently as practical.
>  Meanwhile, the festive yet unpleasant substance the Corporal slipped
>  into the Recruit's capsule gets nicely shaken, not stirred. >>
> 
> Just make shure that he (or she, I assume that gender equality in the armed
> forces has happend, with the advent of such tech as Power Armour) does not
> choke to death on the substance.
> -Stephen

You simply have the honoree in simulated power armor:  the armor is real
(with selected perforated joints to allow said substance to leak in),
the power pack is simulated (except for about a five-minute charge to
enable the honoree to get into the capsule).  The air supply is real,
and thus helps keep the cherry from choking.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:36:11 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: re: GT Maintenance crews

>>I would say that this DOES NOT follow contemporary wet navy practices.
>>Engineering and hotel systems (potable water, waste systems,
lights)require
>>a much higher level of regular maintenance than weapon systems.  This is
>>reflected in manning requirements for Navy ships.  Typically a ship
requires
>>a large engineering crew, approximately 100-300 trained individuals on a
>>destroyer or cruiser. The same ship might have perhaps a dozen weapon
>>systems specialist. Most Combat Systems specialist work not on the weapons
>>themselves but on the sensor systems that the weapons require. Most
>>munitions, missiles, etc. require no shipboard maintenance at all. Indeed,
>>many weapons CAN NOT be worked on by ship's force, but must be offloaded
to
>>a shore facility for repair.
>
>This can't be completely the case; large merchant ships of similar tonnage
to
>naval ships get by with much smaller crews in spite of having presumably
similar
>engineering systems. And if a large fraction of the crew's efforts go into
"hotel" >systems that's just plain weird - if 90% of your crew is
maintaining your toilets,
>and 90% of your toilets are there because you have such a large crew,
there's something
>wrong. I know Navy ships have large crews ("low automation", in Traveller
terms) to
>improve damage control capabilities, but presumably a lot of the crew must
somehow be
>related to the military mission - sensor maintenance, as you say, and
maintenance of
>systems related to sensors and weapons, and helos, etc.

>Of course, a modern warship doesn't spend much money on the actual weapons
>either - VL tubes are cheap, so are dinky little 5" guns. It's the sensors
and the
>ordinance that drive up the price. My interpretation of the GT rules (which
may be  >wrong) is that ordinance doesn't count in the price for
maintenance, so maybe the GT >rules would produce a similar result - most of
the crew busy maintaining the engines                     >and sensors - if
used to design a late-TL-7 surface warship.
>
>Bruce

Hotel systems consist of a lot more than toilets. But that's beside the
point, which is: Even on modern automated (U.S.) Navy ships the engineering
systems, Gas Turbines, generators, water purification systems, etc require a
lot more maintenance than weapons. The reason has to do with how they're
used. The main propulsion system is used 24/7. As is the power distribution
system, the potable water system, the waste system.  The weapons are used
for a couple of hours strait during training or combat. They just don't take
the abuse the rest of the systems do.
I would point out that this is not true for combat aircraft, which are
heavily maintenance intensive.
And by the way. The Supply department, which does nothing but see to the
needs of the crew (and procure repair parts for maintenance) outnumber the
guns and missile guys too.

Obtrav: I see no reason why spacecraft should be any different. Especially
commercial spacecraft. Man the weapons while on the way to the jump point.
Maybe a few days. Get attacked by a Corsair. Fight for a few hours. Kick
their butts. Jump. Spend a week in jumpspace. Man the weapons while on the
way from the jump point. Dock at Regina Highport.

Wear and tear on the systems: Power systems 12 days+ use, Life Support 12
days+ use. Sensor systems 5 days+ use. M drive 5 days use. J-drive
(depending on your idea of how it works) 7 days use. Weapons 3-4 hours use.
What systems do you think will need the most maintenance?

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:38:08 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: White Globes

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com> wrote:
> 
> >GURPS Traveller mentions "White Globes" as well as black globes. I don't
> >remember these devices and haven't been able to find any Library Data
> >entries on them. Are they from an obscure Adventure pack, or am I just more
> >ignorant than usual?
> 
> They're in the MT design sequence at > Imperial TL's. IIRC you can manuever
> and see out of a White Globe.
> 
> Not sure if they're in FFSn
> 
In FF&Sv2, they are discusswed on page 57, and included in Table 136
(page 99).  According to Table 136, they are available at TL 20.

<<snip sig>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:35:09 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/26/99 11:00:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

<< Harris
 had moved to Littleton from another town. In the old town his two best
 friends were african and asian-American. One of the former members of the
 Trenchcoat Mafia (Alejandra Marx) was hispanic.
  >>

	And it seems that they particularly targeted believing Christians to 
anyone else, rather than any minority or ehnic target as had been first 
reported.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:38:37 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>You'd have preferred if they hacked up a dozen schoolmates w/ knives or 
>hatchets?  If i wanted to kill a dozen people, especially in a school, I 
>*could* do so pretty effectively w/ just a good combat knife and the sick 
>intentions to do so (which I thankfully lack).  Odds are I could chase down 
>as many more, too, especially fat bodies or poor runners.  

I've been avoiding this thread, too, as it is not germaine to Traveller, so
I'll be brief. The reason I even respond to this comment is that I hear
this argument all too often from gun proponents on this list. 

Here goes: If you (and I mean that in the generic sense; not just you,
Gary) really believe that two students with machetes and knives could have
done the damage that those two did in Littleton, you are too deluded to own
a firearm yourself. I won't even get into how ridiculous it is to compare
knives with firearms other than to say this assertion is just plain stupid.
If you must come up with an argument to justify your ownership and love of
firearms, find a better one than this. Let's get serious, folks.

'Nuff said. I will cease wasting our collective bandwidth on such
non-Traveller nonsense.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:43:44 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> He's out of the products that I'm looking for, any other ideas?
> -Stephen

Try calling my FLGS, Little Wars, at (225) 924-6304.  They have at least
some of what was on your list.  Tell them John Groth told you to call
(you won't get any special discount, but I want them to thank me next
time I go there! <g>)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:51:39 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...

Juliean Galak wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> >In a high law level area, sporting goods can be a great asset in a riot.
> >Ban on knives, bring in religious items.  Ceremonial blades for Wiccan
> >services.  Just make sure these can take a good edge once you get them in.
> 
> According to one Martial Artist I've spoken to, the greatest melee weapon
> of the 20th Century is a golf club with a strong/reinforced handle.... It's
> light and has good reach, and is balanced in such a way that you can do a
> great deal of damage with the head.  A low iron is probably best... :)

In that vein, see SJG's _Murphy's Rules_ book, 1998 edition, page 62. 
(Alternately, 
check Pyramid magazine issue 28, November/December 1997.)

> 
>           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
> 
> --
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
>                          defend to the death your right to say it."
>                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
>                                                      -- Albert Einstein
> for PGP public-key and
> more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
> WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:40:51 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/26/99 11:31:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cos90@powersurfr.com writes:

<< 
 Sorry if this gets too far OT, but why isn't there more attention being
 paid to your variable #2?
  >>
	America had virtually unlimited firearm ownership for a very, very 
long time without kids going berserk.   The gun laws have recently gotten 
more restrictive in the last 40 years or so and the violence has increased 
(not assesrting any cause and effect!  far from it).   So, there must be some 
societal cause behind the change in violence,  heck 50 years ago riflery was 
taught in schools and hordes of children learned shooting at home, with 
little or no catastrophe attached.   So from a foreign perspective the guns 
seem obviously the whole explanantion, but from a historical American 
perspective, they clearly aren't "the cause", and we object to giving up our 
liberties  because of the evil of a minority.

					Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:28:43 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Legal Records...

Dear Folks -

Jason said:
>> Under Scottish Law, you don't need parental permission at 16 or 17.
>> So there are frequental references to couples heading across the
>> border to get married.
>>
>Gretna Green is still used by a lot of people to elope to and get married,
>although the queues are slightly longer than they used to be, and you now
>have to book your wedding in advance instead of just turning up.

"...She laughed, "Our parents will have lost their minds,
We're only 10 miles to Gretna, they're 300 behind!

(Chorus) Moonlighting, they're leaving everything..."

(Leo Sayer, c. 1979)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:03:19 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

Phil Kitching writes:

>>L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the
>>interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor
>>engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped
> 
>So it's a benefit of TL16 jump drives?
>Its a shame none of the design systems mention this.

Just because it was first invented around 1080-90 dosen't mean it has to be
TL 16. It just has to be an entirely new idea. THe reason that those
capacitors can't be built in the Spinward Marches could be the simple one
that the manufacture is still a secret, or at the very least still owned
by the inventor.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:04:46 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/27/99 12:22:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
wlewis@mailbag.com writes:

<< 
 Probably wear Ine Gevar (sp?) t-shirts while at said rallies too.
  >>

	This kind of attitude is why I have an obligatory "club the hippies" 
scene in everyone of my adventures.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:48:48 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: FYI - USENET Traveller sale..

At 07:20 PM 4/26/1999 -0700, Nikki wrote:
>MEGA TRAVELLER
>
>Kafer Dawn  VG (out of MT Boxed)  $3

Kafer Dawn is not a Traveller product in any form or fashion.  It is for 
the Traveller 2300/2300AD game system.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
     and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                         -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:14:51 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: More about Imperial taxes

Juliean Galak writes:

>At 07:56 AM 4/26/99 +0200, you wrote:
>>That's something I've suggested before, but it's not canon. It's just that
>>with one exception all the Imperial companies for which we have stock
>>ownership information (which is the 13 megacorporations and three or four
>>lesser companies) have a minimum of 2% (not 5) owned by 'Imperial Family'.
>>For some of them it is much more than 2%, but that would, of course,
>>represent genuine investments on the part of various Imperial family
>>members. 
> 
>Yup, it is 2%, not 5%.  This is explicitly stated in GT Far Trader (p
>46-47), 

Really? I only  got Far Trader today, so I didn't know. That's very
gratifying.

>which, of course, is as canon as you want it to be...  Since I'm
>playing in GT, that makes it canon IMTU...

Oh, I want it to be very canon. It is my hope that Loren will run the GT
universe as being identical to the OTU until one single event that
constitutes the divergence point. That way anything mentioned in GT 
would be useful background material for the OTU unless it was linked
to the special changes introduced by the divergence.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:20:11 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

Not to throw a damper on the enthuisiasm of the idea, but the ritual you are
talking about will cost more than what most of the participants will make in
any given enlistment.  So having access to resources like 'fixed'
battledress and a drop pod, even for an official ceromony, seem to be a bit
remote.  The armorer will have to account for these items after all, and
should anything happen to the 'victim', all hell would break loose.

What do I see as possibilities?  Strap the newbie into a hard suit with a
re-entry kit (suitably modified to only give a 1 second burst, and a looong
safety line he or she doesn't know about) and get them to hit the button.
(Ya ain't drop qualified until ya reenter solo kiddo...)  Polish the empty
tubes on the missile bay, from the inside.  Be tasked with ensuring the
arming pin doesn't fall out of said bay missile until it is completely
seated in the tube (i.e. ride the warhead into the tube).  Be put outside a
turret (in a vacc suit) while routine maintenance is done to ensure that the
turret does not spin more than 13 times in either direction - if it does so,
it will have unscrewed itself from the base, or run down to the end of the
thread and ground the ring against the hull (don't laugh, we actually pulled
that one on a newbie Ensign on the cruiser I was stationed on.)  Give him a
target and a MMU, and detail him to manuever to a very specific location
(which, of course, he can *never* quite get right) for a boresight
synchronization of the spinal weapon.  For that matter, give him a
toothbrush and instructions to clean said spinal weapon!  :)

IRL, in the US military, all hazing is officially forbidden, and most of the
rituals have been stripped of everything but the name.  Unofficially, last
time I was in contact with someone from the fleet, crow tacking, pinning,
bloodstriping, etc... had all gone underground and was still very much a
part of the lifestyle.  You just don't get caught doing it, and nobody who
participates talks.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:19:01 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

Snort... TML 3 Keyboard 0

Later while stationed in Kansas, I experimenting w/ Buddhism. Nice little
altar...including incense... and a West Pointer for CO. Chaplain took care
of him once the good man decided I was serious.

Ob Trav: What _will_ troops do to kill week in Jump? Especially Ground
Pounders with limited capability to train?

William

> At 11:18 AM 4/27/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Sounds like the T-shirt I had while stationed in Germany (1st Armor Div,
>>1984-85) that had a picture of Che Guevara and the words "The Last Hero".
>>Drove my S2 absolutly bonkers...  ;'>
>
> hehehehe..  Try having a few hundred hours of Grateful Dead tapes and the
> complete set of Rip-Off Press comic books, including the Fabulous Furry
> Freak Brothers Go Abroad!, in your barracks room.
>
> - --
>
> +------------------------------------+
> | Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
> |   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
> +------------------------------------+
> |  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
> |  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
> +------------------------------------+
>
> ------------------------------


- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:40:16 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Nazi Obsessions (Was: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)

At 22:45 26.04.99 -0400, you wrote:

>My own personal suspicion is that they were fascinated by Hitler to a large
>extent. Even some well-adjusted academics are fascinated by Hitler. However,
>a being enamored by the nazi regime and being a nazi are two entirely
>different things. Of course, I have no proof on that one.

Yep, you are right there. Even I must admit, that the style (fashion and
public appearance)
of the nazi regime were the coolest looking. They were designed to impress
people.
It is no wonder that even today, Science Fiction Films model future regimes
dresses like the Nazis. Just look at "Verhoevens Starship Troopers".
This however does not mean one agrees with their politics/policies.

I think its sad that the media reaction to this incident was "Oh, they
were wearing black trenchcoats, so they must have been weirdoes!". 
Loads of people I know wear them, but none are prone to shoot people. Its
just another quick solution/scapegoat born by the desire to see everything
black/white.
  
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:52:27 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

>(snip)..., but if these kids of weapons were restricted to begin with,
>the tragedy could have been averted. I saw a list of the weapons they had --
>most of which are, in Canada, illegal for a private citizen to own. 
>
Exactly! I mean Id like to own guns, but they are restricted in Germany
and I agree to this policy, because I know that if I had free access to
guns, everybody else would have, too. 
And there are elements of society which should not be able to get guns this
easily. But detecting them before they go on a rampage is nigh impossible.
So I agree, that while guns are not "The Problem" (Guns are never bad by
themselves, just the uses to which they are sometimes put), free access is
just to dangerous.

And, bringing this back to the Topic of this ML, this is why most worlds
IMTU, restrict weapons according to their law level, and sometimes (if i
feel the government or Pop-level warrant it) even more so.
How do you see these restrictions enforced in the Imperium?
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:06:47 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

At 01:52 AM 4/28/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Exactly! I mean Id like to own guns, but they are restricted in Germany
>and I agree to this policy, because I know that if I had free access to
>guns, everybody else would have, too. 
>And there are elements of society which should not be able to get guns this
>easily. But detecting them before they go on a rampage is nigh impossible.
>So I agree, that while guns are not "The Problem" (Guns are never bad by
>themselves, just the uses to which they are sometimes put), free access is
>just to dangerous.

This is a very dangerous argument.  At what point do we restrict something
as _potentially_ dangerous?  Many more people die in car accidents than
ever do from guns, but we don't ban cars.  After all "Sure people want
them, but free access is just too dangerous," sounds silly in that context
doesn't it?  

Note that I am not advocating totally free access to guns.  I think certain
safeguards and restrictions are needed, just like you need a license to
drive a car.  But I do feel that the restrictions we currently have in the
US, let alone the ones in most of Europe, are far too severe, and generally
poorly thought out.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 515



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

OT: geocities
Re: Government Type 6
Gun Control and Crime Rates
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: T4 stuff
RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: geocities 
DROP THE GUNS!
Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements
melee weapons
Re: T4 stuff
T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
Re:  Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re:  DROP THE GUNS!
Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
Re: Problem-solving (was RPG Paranoia)
Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]
Re: GUN CONTROL
Gun COntrol (was:  heavy sigh...)
Re:  Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:10:02 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: OT: geocities

> Can you whack out the popups?  From what I gather, Geocities
> only requires the branding now.

If you're a geocitizen on the cheap like me, just add the
geo-guide to the bottom of the page.  The geo-guide does
have some nice features like a guest book, a site tour,
etc.  [Yes, it still has a banner.  But, you can move it
to an out of the way spot.]

ObTrav:  IYTU, how pervasive is mega-corp advertising?
         0 = Star Trek, 
         7 = Blade Runner, 
         F = Frederik Pohl's The Space Merchants 
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:16:25 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Government Type 6

From: CardSharks@aol.com <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Government Type 6


><< My specific problem is Pretoria (0406 - Pretoria/Deneb) which in 1120
has a
> government type 6 with a population of 7 billion and no other system
listed
> as coloniser/owner.  Who's in control ?
>  >>
>
>The government codes are meant to stimulate the thought process. So, I can
>imagine a government like the British Empire... ruled (and exploited) from
>afar. Or the world was simply colonized 600 years ago from a nearby world
and
>never threw off the yoke of the owners.
>
>Marc Miller


    I knew it, a crown colony.
    Btw, Marc, one question I have about Government type 6.  Could a colony
be founded in another sector & still be ruled via a viceroy & would it be a
type 6 government?

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:15:20 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Gun Control and Crime Rates

At 06:21 27.04.99 +0000, you wrote:

>2> Every weapon purchase (expect private sales or at a gunshow) requires a
>minimum five day waiting period and backround checks.
>
>Hardly dispensing them from vending machines.
It really is compared with needing a licence for gun possession (like a
driving license, but including a thourough background check), starting with
small caliber and needing more licenses which are harder to get as you move
up the line. At some point you need to proove that you need them (for
hunting, sport (only in approved clubs) etc.)
First time i held a gun in my hands was at age 19, during my tour of duty
in the german Air Force. Never had one since. 

Crime Rates:
Well you might say that the crime rate has risen everywhere gun possession
has been banned or restricted, but compare to the general level of crime /
population and the US of A still is in one of the top spots. So you might
say, violent, gun related crime has risen in response to legislation, but
it is still lower than in the most peaceful state of the US.

And about the percentage increases:
When in one year 10 people are killed and in the next 30, you have a 300%
increase. Sounds much, but this just might be unrelated to any legislation.
Maybe that year more people had it coming.

Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:01:20 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

>IRL, in the US military, all hazing is officially forbidden, and most of the
>rituals have been stripped of everything but the name.  Unofficially, last
>time I was in contact with someone from the fleet, crow tacking, pinning,
>bloodstriping, etc... had all gone underground and was still very much a
>part of the lifestyle.  You just don't get caught doing it, and nobody who
>participates talks.

Well, I got out in late '96, and at that point, tacking on a Crow was
basically nonexistent, and you only did it to friends, and then gently.
Which is a lot different from when I made 3rd, and had a softball sized
lump on my arm, and could barely move it (basically thanks to two people).
Of course my chest still hurts when I think about the CO pinning on my ESWS
pin (late 80's)!

The downside of all these changes are a less efficent, less behaved Navy.
On the last Ship I was on the junior personnel had no respect for senior
personnel, and were just as likely to mouth off as do what they were told.
It used to be, you were told what to do, and you did it.  Now they expect
to be told why you want them to do something.  If you can't get any backing
from the higher ups, because they're scarred being involved in anything
that could hint of hazing or mistreating a junior, what are you to do.  Me,
I got out, and pay more in taxes than I made as a Senior 1st (which is
another problem with the Military).

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:07:30 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

In a message dated 99-04-27 18:49:01 EDT, you write:

<< Try calling my FLGS, Little Wars, at (225) 924-6304.  They have at least
 some of what was on your list.  Tell them John Groth told you to call
 (you won't get any special discount, but I want them to thank me next
 time I go there! <g>) >>

Hmm, okay, I'll see what I can do, what products does it have?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:17:42 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: RPG Paranoia

>>The variables that led to the shooting in Columbine HS are probably
>>numerous, but a few of the more obvious ones are:
>>
>>1) Killers were alienated youths, subject to ridicule by their peers
during
>>a time in their lives that peer pressure is at it's strongest (at least
for
>>most humans in modern American society).
>>
>>2) Killers gained access to firearms and information necessary to
construct
>>explosive devices.

>Sorry if this gets too far OT, but why isn't there more attention being
>paid to your variable #2?

While not claiming to speak for the entire U.S. American population, let me
try to answer this for our overseas members.

Throughout our(U.S.) history Americans have felt that the less government
there is the better. We gain our independence from England because Colonist
took their personal firearms to war and beat the professional soldiers of
the British king.  As we moved west we used our guns to feed our families
and protect ourselves from the Mexicans in Texas, the Indians in the West,
and the bandits in the badlands.  Americans have always felt that by owning
their own guns they could overthrow a dictator if one should come to power,
or defend themselves and their family should a criminal attack their home.

The fact that almost everything that I just said is based on untruths has no
bearing on the subject. France provided real military weapons to
Washington's Army. U.S. citizens stole Texas from Mexico and most of the
Indian lands. Someone with a 38 cal. handgun could no more stop a platoon of
Army soldiers armed with M-16's and motor support than someone with sticks.
BUT many people think or feel all of what I said is true.  They want to
think that they can stop a hostile government or criminal if they have a
weapon. It's part of Americans' need to be in control of their destiny.
They will always believe that they can take care of themselves rather than
trust someone else, like police officer of soldier, to do it for them.


Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:27:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: OT: geocities 

> > Can you whack out the popups?  From what I gather, Geocities
> > only requires the branding now.
> 
> If you're a geocitizen on the cheap like me, just add the
> geo-guide to the bottom of the page.  The geo-guide does
> have some nice features like a guest book, a site tour,
> etc.  [Yes, it still has a banner.  But, you can move it
> to an out of the way spot.]

Yeah, all it takes is to remove the lines that add the damned popups.
 
> ObTrav:  IYTU, how pervasive is mega-corp advertising?
>          0 = Star Trek, 
>          7 = Blade Runner, 
>          F = Frederik Pohl's The Space Merchants 

IMTU?  Like Blade Runner.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:39:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: DROP THE GUNS!

Folks, this gun control thread is pointless and is quickly heading into
flamewar territory.  You're all just going over the same hackneyed
arguments people have been throwing at each other forever.  Does any of
you honestly believe you're going to change the minds of any of the
others?  This is not an issue of information, it's an issue of values. 
You can throw facts and ideas around til you're all blue in the face, but
it's not going to change anything except the signal-to-noise ratio of this
mailing list.  I can understand that people feel the urge to express their
opinion on this contentious issue, but this is not the place.  Find
another forum.

Thank you,
Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:43:42 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements

>It's already there -- that's why the formula in FT is a ratio between
>original (list) price and actual purchase price. If you pay less than list
>for a ship (buy it used or something), the maintenance is higher than a new
>vessel. If you pay more than list for a ship, the maintenance is lower.
>GURPS Vehicles (p. 204?) calls these options "Cheap" and "Fine" (or "Very
>Fine"), respectively. The implication is that the quality of the vehicle
>should be set at the time of construction, but I extended the rule to cover
>used vessels.
Interesting. The option of paying more for a ship should certainly be
clarified in
some Traveller supplment, for people who don't own "Vehicles".

>One simple fix for your Scout is to say that she has Fine construction, but
>that the cost remains the same due to the huge volume the Imperium
>contracts to buy (*wave hands as appropriate*). Then recalculate the
>maintenance requirement as if the ship cost twice list price.
This helps a little, but because of the sqrt(purchase) scaling doubling the
price
would only reduce the maintenance to 16 hours or so, still not very good for
a
one-man crew...

>The maintenance system in GURPS Vehicles is extremely abstract, and covers
>a multitude of TL's and types of vehicles in a single rule. Some grittiness
>is a necessary result.
Classic GURPS problem, I suppose. Still, putting in some kind of TL modifier
might
not have been a bad idea (for example, modern cars take much less
maintenance than
their primitive ancestors...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:47:25 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: melee weapons

>Here goes: If you (and I mean that in the generic sense; not just you,
>Gary) really believe that two students with machetes and knives could have
>done the damage that those two did in Littleton
[big snip]

   Blades don't jam nor do they need reloading.  They can get stuck between
ribs,
which why slicing to bone and lifting is taught in sabre.  Knife (and
machette) wounds
bleed a huge large amount.  This is very dangerous.  Shock sets in real fast.
   At distances under 3 meters, a foe with a blade (think Traveller blade
here, big end
of bowie knife, small end of machette) is at least, if nor more dangerous
than a firearm.
Just ask any LEO or serious MA who has done disarm drills with simulated
weapons 
(squirt guns & chalk covered practice knives).

  I aways like to tweak RPG melee rules to add damage with skill level.
You really,
really don't want a skilled Escrimador coming after with a knife.  Your
arms will be cut
to the bone multiple times before you blink twice. You're down on the
ground in shock
real soon after that.

  Oh ya, pipe bombs.  Way easy to make.  Triple that if you live in a state
or near 
the border of state where fireworks are legal.  A stop there, a hardware
store, and a
DoD manual released via the FOIA and you have some nasty, nasty AP weapons.

  When I play in modern era games at Cons (such as Merc:2000, Dark Con or
Torg),
I like to bring a US Cav catalog and a couple of DoD manuals.  I've shocked
a couple
of GM with what is publically available and dangerous.  Of course the GMs that 
were ex-military were no suprised and generally had a few ideas of their own...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend 
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY 
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting. 
              http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:48:48 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-04-27 18:49:01 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Try calling my FLGS, Little Wars, at (225) 924-6304.  They have at least
>  some of what was on your list.  Tell them John Groth told you to call
>  (you won't get any special discount, but I want them to thank me next
>  time I go there! <g>) >>
> 
> Hmm, okay, I'll see what I can do, what products does it have?
> -Stephen

From your original list, I'm pretty sure they have CSC and Starships
(though why you would want Starships is beyond me...).  They also have
some of the other T4 items.  They even still have some TNE items,
including at least two copies of FF&S.

For the other items, try Titan Games:

http://www.titan-games.com

They've hooked me up in the past, and I expect them to do so in the
future.

Finally, try Sword Worlder's Web site (I don't have the URL off-hand,
but Sword Worlder is a regular poster to TML.)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:56:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

At 08:48 PM 4/27/99 -0500, you wrote:
>From your original list, I'm pretty sure they have CSC and Starships
>(though why you would want Starships is beyond me...).  They also have

Ok, just a question: What's wrong with the T4 Starships book?  (I don't
have it, and have only glanced through it briefly.  My impression was that
other than the art it was ok...)  

Not trying to start a war, just honestly curious... 

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:47:13 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

In a message dated 4/27/99 5:06:10 PM, you wrote:

<<The downside of all these changes are a less efficent, less behaved Navy.
On the last Ship I was on the junior personnel had no respect for senior
personnel, and were just as likely to mouth off as do what they were told.
It used to be, you were told what to do, and you did it.  Now they expect
to be told why you want them to do something.  If you can't get any backing
from the higher ups, because they're scarred being involved in anything
that could hint of hazing or mistreating a junior, what are you to do.  Me,
I got out, and pay more in taxes than I made as a Senior 1st (which is
another problem with the Military).>>

Welcome back to the Carter Navy. I'm amazed we haven't had a Desert One fubar 
yet...

Ob trav: Styrx...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:06:27 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

Sorry, you must not have been "out west" recently.  Exept in CA, I can go
out and buy any legal gun with a 5 MINUTE waiting period- though they do
make a check of my backgroud, I find it hard to believe it's very thourough.
As for impulse shopping, Walmart sells shotguns and rifles  24-7, and you of
all people should know how relatively easy it is to fix up a Norinco to fire
full auto.

Not bubble gum, but not much harder.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia


>At 09:27 PM 4/26/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>The question arises, how did the kids get access to those kinds of
firearms?
>>Of course, you can practically get AK-47s out of coin-operated vending
>>machines in most of the USA.
>
>A couple of minor points.
>
>1> AK-47s are banned in most of the US, as are the 30-round magazines they
>use.
>
>2> Every weapon purchase (expect private sales or at a gunshow) requires a
>minimum five day waiting period and backround checks.
>
>Hardly dispensing them from vending machines.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:58:56 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

Terry C. wrote:
>Someone with a 38 cal. handgun could no more stop a platoon of
>Army soldiers armed with M-16's and motor support than someone with sticks.
>BUT many people think or feel all of what I said is true.  They want to
>think that they can stop a hostile government or criminal if they have a
>weapon. It's part of Americans' need to be in control of their destiny.
>They will always believe that they can take care of themselves rather than
>trust someone else, like police officer of soldier, to do it for them.


While someone with a 38 cal. handgun could no more stop a platoon of
Army soldiers armed with M-16's - I'd venture to say that several thousand
experienced hunters armed with 30-06's would do more against a platoon
than someone with a stick.  Check into the number of deer hunting licenses
purchased in the U.S. each year.  A number of states sell over a MILLION
deer licenses per year.  the count of U.S. Hunters with scoped rifles is
staggering.  While they may not be as effective as a soldier... they
vastly outnumber them.

Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:55:31 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re:  DROP THE GUNS!

In a message dated 4/27/99 5:41:09 PM, you wrote:

<<
Thank you,
Charles C.>>

I concur. Take it to private E mail like I've been doing...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:04:20 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements

>Working backwards from the crew requirements per module for maneuver drives
>and jump drives, it appears that GT neglects to take the square root that
>appears in VE2  (p. 75). This results in an Engineer (Mechanic, in GT
>terms) requirement that is linear with power for a given TL -- necessary in
>a modular design system like GT's -- and is an implied official rules
>variant for the Traveller setting.

It would also fit with older Traveller material, where crew were linear
with the size of the system. Maybe we could get this made official for GT?


>I agree that one crewman (a Gunner) per spinal weapon isn't a very faithful
>rendering of HG and others. Earlier I tried the same method you did, Tom,
>with the same results. Requiring other large, power-using systems (like bay
>and spinal weaponry) to have maintenance crews on the same basis as drives
>might be a more reasonable extension of the rules for the Traveller
>universe. For example, a TL10 spinal mount (p. GT157), which includes a
>18983.3 MW power plant slice, would require 76 maintenance crew (about 1/20
>spaces). The TL12 meson spinal mount would require 19 (~1/80).

As well, a single large system (like a spinal weapon) is added as a really
_big_ module, so you can use the sqrt formula without much problem.

IIRC, you've already calculated that bays are reasonably covered with 2
crew, so it's only spinal mounts and screens that we need to calculate.
Spinals are a single big module, so no problem. Screens however grow as
many small modules. A formula?  Ignore?  A rule-of-thumb?


>This will clearly have to be a topic of discussion for GT: Starships.

Yup.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:14:38 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Problem-solving (was RPG Paranoia)

>3) Killers believed that violence was a suitable method to achieve a
>motivational goal (the nature of this goal is, as of this writing, still a
>subject of speculation).
[snip]>How the killers in the Columbine incident came to the belief that
violence
>is a suitable method of problem-solving a subject of debate. It seems
>obvious that exposure to the concept of "violence as a means of achieving
>an end" was most likely through the various information media such as
>movies, games, history classes, etc. However, it is equally obvious that
>such exposure is not sufficient to cause otherwise normal individuals to
>become murderous.

"And where would they have picked this up?", asked one of my kids. "I mean,
we like hear the leader of our country saying to the Serbians: 'We're going
to bomb you and kill you until you stop killing people.'  But the
government can't admit that, because then they'd have to blame themselves
instead of someone else."


>So what do we do?
>
>ObTrav: If the incidence of individuals who will resort to actions that
>result in massacres can be expressed as a percentage of the total
>population, then such incidents will increase as population increases. Add
>to this factors such as the capability of high tech weapons to kill large
>numbers of people, and you have a recipe in the Imperium for numerous
>Columbine-style incidents (or worse).

Exactly why, IMTU, no one walks around a starport with much in the way of
weaponry. Owning it, sure -- locked up nice and safe in screamer-tagged
carrying cases.


>Science fiction is, in a lot of ways, about solving problems through
>technological advance (or at least dealing with problems that technological
>advance causes). An Imperial fleet with laser-detonation warheads can do
>little to reduce the suffering alienated youths, nor deter them from taking
>drastic and tragic actions. So what technology can the Imperium bring to
>bear on this problem?

Import the Thought Police from the Zhodani?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:23:49 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

>That, and the fact that they are all middle or upper middle class
>suburban kids.  Maybe all that exposure to cars, single family homes,
>and shopping malls is just too much for some people.

There is violence among the urban poor, but it doesn't hit the news. Half a
dozen years ago I was talking to a chap who taught in Detroit. He told me
that high school sports in his earea take place without audiences or
advance notification of location, because of the drive-by shootings.

A friend in the police force here tells me that the cops have more problems
with upper-middle-class kids than poor kids, on a per capita basis. More
money, more access to drugs and other stuff, less parental supervision and
involvement, and better lawyers when they do get caught.

Purely anecdotal, and I can't vouch for the Detroit story. Still, food for
thought.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:25:14 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: GUN CONTROL

>Sorry for shouting, but I think this is rather important.
>
>Okay, now I can see the relevance of discussing the recent US school
>tragedy in respect to how it relates to RPG's and the subsequent public
>responses. But please can we keep gun control debates off the list. Not
>only do they not belong here, but its sort of like pouring out kerosene
>and then holding up a lighted match. This is just not a topic that can
>possibly be solved here, and its almost guaranteed to start a nasty little
>flame war.

Amen.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:44:53 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Gun COntrol (was:  heavy sigh...)

>A quote I found with the above statistics:
>"crime has grown least in those European countries where discrepancies of
>wealth and opportunity
>are lowest, or where governments have worked to ameliorate the effects of
>globalisation and de-industrialisation upon the most vulnerable."

Hm. And according to the latest issue of Le Monde Diplomatique, while New
York was trumpting the success of its  "Zeo Tolerance Policy", violent
crime in other cities without such a policy was falling at the same rate.

Digging back deeper, in Roman history you can tell how widespread
corruption was by how many laws against corruption were enacted. The worse
the corruption, the more laws were passed against it. The laws were a
response to the situation, not the cause of it. (And tended not to work,
too, because the whole political system depended on patronage, but that's a
different issue.)

The lesson here is: correlation is not causation.



Now, can we leave off this topic, please?  We all know where everyone
stands, and we're not here to reform the American landscape.

At the very least, include "Gun Control" in the header so people can filter
the thread out, eh?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:18:18 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements

Just for the non HG'ers on the list here's the crew requirements: (from 
memory; I don't have the book in front of me)

weapons: Spinal Mount: 1 per 100 tons (all tons are volume; not mass)
 Bays: 2 per bay, turrets: 1 per battery (ie. from 1/10th to one per turret)
 screens: four per screen type (ie. 12 if mounting all three: black Globe, 
Meson, Nuclear Damper), plus a chief gunnery officer.

Engineering: one per 100 tons of drives (man, jump, pow plant), plus a chief 
engineer and a second eng. off.

Command: Co, Xo, Nav, MD, com, two comp officers. Other: 1 per 5000 tons ship

Flight: Controller, crew for each shuttle or fighter, one crew chief per 
craft, I don't remember how many launch tube people (about a half dozen per 
tube?)

Service Crew: 2 per 1000 tons of ship, 3 per if no ships troops

Ships Troops: 3 per 100 to 1000 tons of ship

Thus my million ton tender has a crew of about 5000, and my 25ktn rider has a 
crew of about 500. It has been noted on the TML, that this seems too "wet 
navy" and not automated enough (ie. the crews should be much smaller...). My 
spin is on how CANON defines what is needed for damage control. Do you need 
people to seal punctures for example, or does this get done automatically...

Seth

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #515
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 516



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: heavy sigh...
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: T4 stuff
Re: GT Maintenance 
GT Maintenance Crew Requirements
Re: Background hook: New starport
Re: RPG Paranoia
Old Judges Guild Stuff
Re: Background hook: New starport
Space Station
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)
Re: Hazing Rituals
Re: Hazing Rituals
Re: CT character gen programs 
Re: A-10 myth busting
Re: Jesse DeGraff. 
Re: Space Station
Re: Space Station
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Travellernomics
Re: Space Station 
ultures, Gun control and so on...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:32:55 -0500
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: heavy sigh...

>Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:04:30 -0500
>From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
>Subject: Re: heavy sigh...
snip
>
>When I hear people defending their right to bear arms just after another
>gungeek shooting spree i reach for my near c rocks (driven by a mixture of
>Heplar and thrusterplates).
>Besides, can you two guys jerk one another of in private, this mailing list
>is for Traveller. There are newsgroups for this kind of shit, use them.
>
>
>/Anders Backman

	I thought long and hard before answering this.  There is only semi OT in
my opinion since there are always going to be groups in a universe that are
blamed when something goes wrong.  Gun owners in this country care as much
( if not more) than anyone when something like this happens.  The only
difference is people have come to expect if an atrocity occurs more rights
will be lost.   It's already against the law to make/posess pipe bombs.
It's already against the law to have a shotgun with a barrell under 16".
(Assuming a lack of a proper FFL &/or permit ) The criminals don't obey the
law.  That is what makes them criminals.  Why should we penalize the law
abiding citizens for the actions of a very small minority of criminals?
You will never keep weapons out of the hands of a determined criminal.  A
better solution would be to find out what causes most of these people to
commit evil and either prevent them from trying or to stop them before they
can do any harm.  It might be best to either increase the number of armed
guards or allow responsible adults to carry as a preventive measure.  

									Andy

(BTW, gungeek is an offensive loaded term in my opinion.  If you want to
call the two killers evil I won't object.  Just don't try to put them in
with the vast majority of gun owners.  We don't want them any more than you
do!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:18:04 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

Dear Folks -

Peter said:
>Obtrav:  The Ramparts need pylons or weapon bays (small ones) if they are
>going to carry cheap expendibles for the Close Air Support mission; or do
>they just blast every target with lasers?

Hmmm, this harks back to the space- vs atmospheric fighter debate!

Maybe here is a reasonable example of how a multi-role TL 15 atmospheric
fighter could be more capable than a specialised TL 15 space fighter. And
probably shows how it would cost more.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:13:32 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

In a message dated 99-04-27 21:56:27 EDT, you write:

<< From your original list, I'm pretty sure they have CSC and Starships
 (though why you would want Starships is beyond me...).  They also have
 some of the other T4 items.  They even still have some TNE items,
 including at least two copies of FF&S.
 
 For the other items, try Titan Games:
 
 http://www.titan-games.com
 
 They've hooked me up in the past, and I expect them to do so in the
 future.
 
 Finally, try Sword Worlder's Web site (I don't have the URL off-hand,
 but Sword Worlder is a regular poster to TML.)
  >>

Thanks, I just got in contact with SwrdKnght and have found a copy of T4 
though him and I just started getting things rolling geting CSC, now I just 
need FF&S and maybe Starships.  Thanks for all your help (to all those who 
responed)!
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:19:41 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenance 

>Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:43:42 -0700
>From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements
>
>Interesting. The option of paying more for a ship should certainly be
>clarified in
>some Traveller supplment, for people who don't own "Vehicles".

On the list for GT: Starships. More discussion wasn't appropriate for FT,
or for the "short version" ship design rules in GT.
 
>This helps a little, but because of the sqrt(purchase) scaling doubling the
>price
>would only reduce the maintenance to 16 hours or so, still not very good for
>a
>one-man crew...

I mis-spoke (VE2 not handy at work). VE2, p. 204:

"An entire vehicle may be defined as being "cheaply made" at one-half cost.
This gives a permanent -1 to HT, and means that /twice/ the vehicle's
unmodified cost is used when calculating maintenance interval.

"An entire vehicle may also be defined as being "finely made," for 4x cost.
This gives a permanent +1 to HT, and means that only /one-quarter/ the
unmodified cost of the vehicle is used when calculating maintenance interval.

"Finally, at 20x cost, an entire vehicle may be "very finely made," which
gives +2 HT and means that only 1/20 unmodified cost is used when
calculating maintenance interval!"

The rule in FT is an extension of this one at the low end: i.e., a used
vehicle at 50% price has the same effect as one "cheaply made" but brand
new. How does 12 hours of maintenance per day sound?

Presumably, one could buy a "finely made" scoutship used, and would cut the
resulting maintenance in half.

>Classic GURPS problem, I suppose. Still, putting in some kind of TL modifier
>might
>not have been a bad idea (for example, modern cars take much less
>maintenance than
>their primitive ancestors...)

Check out the module tables in GT. The TL12 modules are cheaper *per unit
performance*. If you design a ship with the same statistics at TL10 and
TL12, the TL12 will be cheaper and therefore require less maintenance. It's
just that the difference is usually invested in greater performance
instead. Not perfect, but present.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:24:29 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements

Question on maintenance requirements. What about maintenance robots.  Highly
intelligent robots, approaching human intelligence, has always been against
canon, (or at least un-Imperium). But most maintenance tasks are real grunt
work tasks. Wipe down the engine, check the oil level, polish the meson
cannon.  Couldn't a multifunction maintenance robot do these tasks under the
control of the ship's computer? Do robot/hours equate to man/hours for
maintenance? Then that S scout with one crew member could do 2 hours
maintenance and the robot could do the other 22.


Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:30:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:41:40 +0000 "Carlos Alos-Ferrer"
> <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> writes:
>>
>>*** States compete for spaceports
>>
>>FREEPORT, Texas (AP) - When Fred Welch surveys 1,000 acres of prairie
>
> snippage
>
> Here we go folks.  Next thing you hear is that Tampa is digging a REALLY
> BIG hole in the ground outside of town.
>
> (quick now, what's the reference?)

Jules Verne "From the Earth to the Moon". Tampa (opposite side of the
penninsula from Kennedy) was the site of the cannon that launched the
vehicle. 

Hmmm. I wonder if that would work on a size 1 planet? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:36:48 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

>While someone with a 38 cal. handgun could no more stop a platoon of
>Army soldiers armed with M-16's - I'd venture to say that several thousand
>experienced hunters armed with 30-06's would do more against a platoon
>than someone with a stick.  Check into the number of deer hunting licenses
>purchased in the U.S. each year.  A number of states sell over a MILLION
>deer licenses per year.  the count of U.S. Hunters with scoped rifles is
>staggering.  While they may not be as effective as a soldier... they
>vastly outnumber them.

You miss my point. I'm not talking about trained hunters armed with
bolt-action hunting rifles, but about urban weenies, who purchase a handgun
at Guns-Are-us, and probably have shot two dozen rounds their whole life.
Their marksmanship ability is probably on a par with those kids in Colorado.
Thank goodness. The best thing about that mess is what bad shots they were.
A competent gunman could have killed a hundred people in the time they had.
Luckily they weren't. Too ban their shooting wasn't worse.

ObTrav:A group of Imperial Citizens on a high tech world that are armed with
recreational weapons have to hold off an invasion force until a relief force
of Army or Marines arrive. The PC's as ex-military members get drafted into
leading the resistance.




Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:42:04 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Old Judges Guild Stuff

Anybody got a copy of 'Rogue Moon of Spinstorm' and 'Amycus Probe' they can 
clone me?  Email me offlist, & we'll work out some kind of trade...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:27:53 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

In a message dated 99-04-27 23:31:20 EDT, you write:

<< Jules Verne "From the Earth to the Moon". Tampa (opposite side of the
 penninsula from Kennedy) was the site of the cannon that launched the
 vehicle. 
 
 Hmmm. I wonder if that would work on a size 1 planet? :-) >>

I would work hear on good Terra-Ferma.  A sci fair project that just did was 
about it.  By using a massive coil gun (dug into a pit in the ground, no 
less) you could asserate a space craft past exsape velocity, dramticaly 
reducing the weight that you need to put into orbit.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:36:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Space Station

Hi,
I have a question:
How would a moduler space station be handled?  
What I have in mind for a campain (after I finish an ISF campain) is the PC 
group as the crew of a TL-11 ship that is part of the first imperial force to 
venture into a region of space known as "The Out" this region of space is a 
dense cluster surouned by a rift no imperial force has breached, yet.  By 
combining imperial forces with corprate and independant "volontears" the 
imperial forces hope to be able to exsablish a net work of bases to alow easy 
axses (sp) to The Out.  Any comments questions, ect?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:03:02 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

In a message dated 99-04-27 18:39:08 EDT, you write:

<< You simply have the honoree in simulated power armor:  the armor is real
 (with selected perforated joints to allow said substance to leak in),
 the power pack is simulated (except for about a five-minute charge to
 enable the honoree to get into the capsule).  The air supply is real,
 and thus helps keep the cherry from choking. >>

Ah, okay.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:16:17 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

In a message dated 99-04-27 16:25:12 EDT, you write:

<< Hazing rituals shouldn't be destructive or overly embarrassing, just a
 reminder that "you aren't one of us.. yet."  The Navy's shellback ceremony
 is actually a lot of fun, from what I've heard, and the Airborne cherry
 helmet gets you a lot of ribbing but no real threat.
 
 We had a thread a while back on the macguffin hunts units would send
 newbies on, and I think these types of tricks would be the most common. >>

In a book called Invading Clans (for battletech) one of the "Hazing" rites 
was sending a group of worriors into the Artic region of Sara Mechy (spelled 
something like that, is russian for "Land of Dreams") to hunt a Ghost Bear 
(stands something like 4 meters tall, when it stands on its hind legs) armed 
only with a spear and a surivel kit.
Might be interesting for some group to have there worriors go though.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:17:12 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)

>       Hans Rancke
> Just because it was first invented around 1080-90 dosen't mean it has to
be
> TL 16. It just has to be an entirely new idea. THe reason that those
> capacitors can't be built in the Spinward Marches could be the simple one
> that the manufacture is still a secret, or at the very least still owned
> by the inventor.

I hadn't thought about this... but what's stopping someone from stealing
another persons idea? The imperium is so large... it would be hard to keep
tabs on who's trying to sell what. Even if the manufacture of drop tanks is
a secret... it shouldn't be too hard to reverese engineer one and figure it
out. ...and even though the idea is owned by the inventor who lives, say on
capital. He wouldn't know that someone is the Spinward Marches was using his
idea. and even if he did find out... he wouldn't be able to do much about
it.

Just an interesting thought... could make an interesting adventure. Guy
hires the group to find out who's stealing his ideas and stop them...

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:18:08 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals

In a message dated 99-04-27 15:54:12 EDT, you write:

<< Use small quantities, the rolling action will be enough to douse the
 Recruit, no need to drown them.
 
 >>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:18:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals

In a message dated 99-04-27 15:54:12 EDT, you write:

<< Use small quantities, the rolling action will be enough to douse the
 Recruit, no need to drown them.
 
 >>

Grr, aol and its send command.  It would provide an interesting hook.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:58:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs 

> Does anybody know the Url for any Character generation programs for CT?

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/8037/travcgen.zip

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:30:23 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting

Also don't forget Law Enforcement and Corrections.  ;-)

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:31:58 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jesse DeGraff. 

Jesse's email is temp. down.  I'm his "best friend" (or so he says) and can 
tell ya he's alive and well.  He is out of time for family stuff right now.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:35:45 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Space Station

>Hi,
>I have a question:
>How would a moduler space station be handled?
>What I have in mind for a campain (after I finish an ISF campain) is the PC
>group as the crew of a TL-11 ship that is part of the first imperial force to
>venture into a region of space known as "The Out" this region of space is a
>dense cluster surouned by a rift no imperial force has breached, yet.  By
>combining imperial forces with corprate and independant "volontears" the
>imperial forces hope to be able to exsablish a net work of bases to alow easy
>axses (sp) to The Out.  Any comments questions, ect?
>-Stephen

So, you're planning to set up a series of "Gas Stations" along a set
corridor into this region of space.  My question is, just how effecient is
a "Jump Tanker"?  It could be a total logistical nightmare trying to set up
string of fueling stations if you have to go very far.  The cost of your
fuel for the run will be astronomical, and as a result it will cost a small
fortune to make the trip just one way.

Has anyone ever done any calculations as to what such a setup would take?
Be interesting.  I know the Imperium has a secret route through the "Claw",
that at least partially makes use of hidden fuel depots.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:39:54 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Station

In a message dated 99-04-28 01:37:19 EDT, you write:

<< So, you're planning to set up a series of "Gas Stations" along a set
 corridor into this region of space.  My question is, just how effecient is
 a "Jump Tanker"?  It could be a total logistical nightmare trying to set up
 string of fueling stations if you have to go very far.  The cost of your
 fuel for the run will be astronomical, and as a result it will cost a small
 fortune to make the trip just one way.

****
Thats the idea, as there will most likely be a wide area (10+ psc) that have 
no stars.
What I'm thinking of is using something simular to the modules for the 
Darwin-class lab ship from THUDDD.
****

 Has anyone ever done any calculations as to what such a setup would take?
 Be interesting.  I know the Imperium has a secret route through the "Claw",
 that at least partially makes use of hidden fuel depots. >>

- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:54:05 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

Walter Smith wrote:

> I was imagining this ritual taking place during the rookie's first venture
> into jump space, so he wouldn't be prepping for a real drop - unless
> his squadmates were totally fed up with him already.
>
> The few accounts I've heard of the "cross the equator" party in the Navy
> seemed to indicate great fun for everyone, with a little discomfort on the
> part of the newbie. Popping him in a drop capsule and half-filling it with
> ice-cold beer might fit the ticket, though the red confetti and perfume
> idea had merit.
>
> Imagine this: The Corporal takes the Recruit down to the Drop Bay right
> after the transport goes to jumpspace. As a "Training Excercise", he
> loads the Recruit into a "Special Capsule" and dogs him in tight. The
> Recruit been told that this capsule is a Combat Drop Simulator.
>
> A bunch of brawny Marines (with battle dress)? then come in, pick up
> the capsule and roll it around the Drop Bay as violently as practical.
> Meanwhile, the festive yet unpleasant substance the Corporal slipped
> into the Recruit's capsule gets nicely shaken, not stirred.

Now this one I'm using..

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:08:02 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Travellernomics

> 
> Keven
> 
> Initially, we played the economic game as you suggested - and reamed
> the system 
> pretty heavily.  Joey approached Mark Miller about how to fix the
> "trade problem", 
> the result was we were limited to one cargo buy opportunity per
> adventure.

That's by the rules, dood.  1 cargo per stop.
 
> It became a very "tight" campaign, moneywise, not CT, I know, so other
> ways of 
> raising bucks to buy ships forced on players - actually, the ship/trade
> economic system
> became largely abstracted - hence the interest in freight, as opposed
> to trade and spec, 
> which was essentially forbidden. We could easily abstract freight
> economics,
> leaving game time for role-playing  (read, violence). 

Thing about it is, all the rewards for doing *anything* in CT in the published 
stuff is pretty lame.  5-10K a head is dirt cheap.  But to make the *serious* 
cash (we're talkin megacreds here), you either have to run a mercenary brigade 
or do spec trading.  No other choices.
 
> Much of the discussion re: trade/spec and freight between Joey and Marc
> became the
> basis of the grossly unfair econ. system of MegaTraveller and later
> incarnations. I never 
> play a ships owner type character in that sad economic system.  Too
> depressing.

I didn't care much for the vanilla system started in Merchant Princes & 
continued on ad nauseum down the line to the present T4.  Haven't seen G:T 
yet, so I have no clue what they're doing...
 
> But, assuming that some poor NPC schmucks out there actually have to
> make
> a living doing freight for the economic system to work, it has to be
> made 
> to work with freight (you get 1000 credits per ton) for everybody -
> tough to do in CT. 
> Using the CT freight rules as Joey interpreted them, and as Mark
> suggested to 
> Joey that they be applied, you would go bankrupt quickly.

No kidding.  Which is why a lotta freighters are subsidised by the governments.
 
> You are right about the vulnerability of the fuel station to attack -
> in time of war  gas stations at the front don't do business, either. 
> They are also hit early, and often.
> 
> (e.g. - sadly, Serbia today - Ploesti in WW II - in spite of daily
> bombings, Ploesti in WWII 
> INCREASED its annual fuel production until overrun by the Russians). 
> 
> The stations are cheap, however, and readily replaced.  Certainly in
> the rear areas of any conflict, they should 
> not be overmuch vulnerable. a few sys def boats could take out a solo
> missile.  Perhaps 50 
> laser turrets would provide some defense, could be even automated, on
> anti-missile duty.

A 5KT station is at *least* 500 MCr just for the *hull*.  Per HG, if it's a 
sphere, the hull price goes down to 350MCr.  You'll still need a basic bridge 
and some kind of power supply to run the life support system, so you get to 
add more cash to that.  This is hardly cheap.  50 triple laser turrets is 
another 150 MCr.  Figure a TL 15 power source and you can get by with a 50 ton 
reactor.  It'll run you 75MCr.  You'll need a Mod Mod 8 or *better* computer, 
which will set you back another 110MCr.  Bridge is another 100 tons for 50MCr. 
 You figure you'll need gunners, command crew, the whole sclemiel.  This means 
staterooms.  And of course you'll need small craft docking space and room for 
their crews, to scoop fuel out of the gas giant.  And purifiers.  You're 
already up to almost 750 MCr and you haven't even added life support costs.  
These are *throwaway* stations?????????  We're looking at a budget of about a 
*billion*, something a *government* would have problems justifying, let alone 
protecting.  System defense boats?  Last I looked, they were 350MCr or more 
*each*.

> The real benefit of the stations would be peace time trade.  And the
> occasional pre-emptive strike!

Only if the location of the station is a top secret.  First time the enemy 
gets ahold of a working nav computer from one of your starships, your secret 
is out.  They can either whack out your supply line *OR* take it over and 
choke you off.  Not tenable, either direction.

> The 100 diameter question is an interesting one, since the 5000 ton
> "planet" under 
> discussion is at worst a tiny "asteroid" of size 0 (on a planetary
> scale), 100 x 0 is 0.
> 100 diameters = safe jump distance = 0 distance for a size 0 object
> (any CT ship).
> The jump diameter thing is really for dense planetary masses, I think,
> else 
> one could not jump if "near" virtually any other ship, or even an
> asteroid belt, or 
> a discharge of sand from an enemy ship - not necessarily a bad rule
> interpretation,mind you.

I always went with the 100 diameter rule even for ships.  A 40 meter long ship 
means you back up 4 klicks or more away.
 
> Jump suppressor device = a long cable of lanthanum, to drain off the
> jump 
> field to your own lanthanum grid, maybe.  Send over the marines,
> huzzah.

Whatcha gonna do with all that captured energy?
 
> In all ways, the "station" should function like L-Hyd tanks, as far as
> jump capability, which is  ALREADY allowed. 

For a billion to start with, and another billion or so for ancillary craft to 
protect it.

> By the way, I certainly enjoy this sort of discussion.  I do not mind
> if you disagree
> with me, or even if you think my ideas silly - if I defend my little
> plan too vigorously, 
> excuse my excitement, it is the love of a parent for their little
> mind-child.  The child may 
> be a moron, but it is the child of my youth, and I love it so.

You just didn't think it all the way through.  Jump stations are sitting 
ducks.  *EXPENSIVE* sitting ducks.  Once you get its ephemeris, you'll be able 
to predict where it will be when.  This gives you an advantage.  The defenders 
will have to put up at least 6 times your availiable throwweight to defend it, 
and that's just on the most-likely approach vectors.  The attackers aren't 
limited to those vectors.
 
> Peace, friend.     Bill

I'm crossposting this back to teh TML for further indepth analysis.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:08:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Space Station 

> In a message dated 99-04-28 01:37:19 EDT, you write:
> 
> << So, you're planning to set up a series of "Gas Stations" along a set
>  corridor into this region of space.  My question is, just how effecient is
>  a "Jump Tanker"?  It could be a total logistical nightmare trying to set up
>  string of fueling stations if you have to go very far.  The cost of your
>  fuel for the run will be astronomical, and as a result it will cost a small
>  fortune to make the trip just one way.
> 
> ****
> Thats the idea, as there will most likely be a wide area (10+ psc) that have 
> no stars.
> What I'm thinking of is using something simular to the modules for the 
> Darwin-class lab ship from THUDDD.
> ****
> 
>  Has anyone ever done any calculations as to what such a setup would take?
>  Be interesting.  I know the Imperium has a secret route through the "Claw",
>  that at least partially makes use of hidden fuel depots. >>

See my next post.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:25:31 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: ultures, Gun control and so on...

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> Subject: Cultures, Gun control and so on...
> 
> Gentles all,
> 
> A few responses amalgamated to focus the 'white heat':
> 
> Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> writes:
> >> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> >> Strange - in the UK, when the Dunblane attack happened we *banned*
> >> handguns, not the jeans or jacket the murderer was wearing.
> >
> >Here's a good example of why the American colonies felt that they had to
> >become independent of Britain.  We just stopped being able to understand
> >one another.
> 
> I think that you should read the post carefully before assuming what I
> meant.

You see what I mean?  My American humor was completely lost on the
British reader.  Just two hundred or so years go by, and we really have
become one people divided by a common language.  

In all seriousness, please accept my apology for any offense.  It was
not my intention.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #516
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 517



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509
Subsectors names for the Corridor sector 
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Gun Paranoia (was: RPG Paranoia)
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
adventure hooks
Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)
Re: Aces and Eights (1188)
Re: something to keep in mind when designing staterooms...
Re: Nazi Obsessions (Was: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Terran countries and Alien Races compared
Re: Surface based Black Globes
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: heavy sigh...
Re: Flashes
Re: Flashes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:35:11 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509

> From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509
 
> Adventure hook:  PCs are sucked into a "kill the landlord!" revolt on a
> remote agricultural world.  The world government has to pay double fees (1.

> The characters can be mercenaries brought in to
> crush the rebels and restore order, or they can be Imperial Marines sent in
> to crush the rebels, restore order, then rebuild the government and
> population's faith in the Imperium...

Or, for a twist, they can be hired by the rebels as training or
stiffening cadre, or as a special operations unit (sort of like The
Magnificent Seven, which I've always wanted to translate into a
Traveller adventure).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:54:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Subsectors names for the Corridor sector 

> From: Keith Johnson <kejohnson@2xtreme.net>
> Subject: Subsectors names for the Corridor sector 
 
> Do the Subsectors have different names between differant eras? Did the 3rd
> Imperium establish Subsector names, or has they been inherited from the 1st
> Imperium or Rule of Man? 

That's a good question.  I've always assumed that the sector/subsector
system was a Vilani invention that's just been kept ever since by
subsequent Imperia.  The library data entries for "astrogation" and
"subsector" (Supplement 8:  Library Data: A-M) don't address this
question.  Names of both subsectors and sectors may have changed over
time.
 
> Heck, anyone have a clue how why the Zhodani, Aslan, K'Kree or Hivers are
> using the Sector/Subsector model?

I don't think they are (although the Vargr in Provence and Gvurrdon
probably are because (1) it's easier to swipe an existing system than to
come up with one on their own and (2) they tend to interact more with
Imperium than with their other neighbors).  Every major power probably
has its own model, but can translate its maps or the maps of the other
powers into the other models.  So when diplomats or military leaders are
discussing a region of space with their opposite numbers from other
powers, everyone can use the referents that make the most sense and are
the most familiar.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:06:09 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

> From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>

> And, bringing this back to the Topic of this ML, this is why most worlds
> IMTU, restrict weapons according to their law level, and sometimes (if i
> feel the government or Pop-level warrant it) even more so.
> How do you see these restrictions enforced in the Imperium?

The local world is responsible for enforcing its own laws, so exiting
the starport means clearing the local world's customs -- which may
include metal detectors, x-ray machines, strip searches, interrogations,
or whatever law level, tech level, starport class, and all of the other
circumstances indicate.  

The Imperium is charged with enforcing law and order in the starport. 
Entering the starport involves clearing starport security.  What that
entails depends on the starport, its security needs, etc.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 03:26:05 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gun Paranoia (was: RPG Paranoia)

> I've been avoiding this thread, too, as it is not germaine to Traveller, so
> I'll be brief. The reason I even respond to this comment is that I hear
> this argument all too often from gun proponents on this list. 

There are several applications. Most notably, law level (which has always 
been the Traveller default when mentioning guns).  Course, the Imperium nor 
Reformation Coalition nor any other interstellar govt (maybe the Zhos) have 
the means, the will, or the way to really enforce it.  This is much more 
appropriate than the musings on the causes of the incident in Littleton...  
IMO.  YMMV.  You hear the argument "all too often" because it's true.  :-)

> Here goes: If you (and I mean that in the generic sense; not just you,
> Gary) really believe that two students with machetes and knives could have
> done the damage that those two did in Littleton, you are too deluded to own
> a firearm yourself. I won't even get into how ridiculous it is to compare
> knives with firearms other than to say this assertion is just plain stupid.

Anyone w/ a knife could've done much worse w/ just blades and perfectly legal 
and mundane chemicals, with knowledge gained from the internet (amongst other 
places).  The knee-jerk reflex is to put restrictions on guns, not that it 
would've stopped this trajedy (or any others, really), but that'll make some 
people feel good, regardless of the actual effectiveness, but like most 
legislation and public thought on this topic (gun control), is very short 
sighted and is very aptly summed up as paranoia.

Indeed it would seem you're not acquainted with knives (and most likely guns, 
particularly handguns, too).  Do try to shed some light on how ridiculous it 
is. :-) 
This should be entertaining...  You do have some practical experience and 
knowledge on what you speak, perhaps?  What do you base your opinion on, 
Chris?

I knew how to do neat things w/ a knife long before I joined the Marines.  
I'm kinda rusty, as I'm in tanks, and if I ever get to the point where I need 
to use a knife, something is VERY wrong (even worse than if I'd have to use 
the 9mm). 

> If you must come up with an argument to justify your ownership and love of
> firearms, find a better one than this. Let's get serious, folks.

I don't need to justify anything, much less here.  Those 2 wimps could've 
easily killed 15 people with knives, homemade explosives with common 
materials, and any other number of methods that would've been easily 
available to them.  Do you want me to list some?  It's very easy, actually.  
The thing I find surprising is that only 15 were killed, given all the bombs 
that were planted (especially the ones on the propane tanks), though it seems 
very few went off (did any?).

Of course, the reflex response from "leadership" like the President's is to 
restrict 18 year olds from gun ownership and to put a waiting period on 
explosives (not that I think that would've affected the bombs these guys made 
anyways, especially if they had the girlfriends buy them, but i'm not sure on 
the exact specifications of their explosives... has it been released yet?).  
Nor would any of the proposed weapons restrictions (short of the extreme 
left-wing ambititions to ban them entirely) have stopped Littleton from 
happening.  Yeah, you can be drafted for war, but let's not allow you to 
drink or own a handgun (not that anything will stop an 18 year old from doing 
either, anways, right?)...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 03:26:08 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

> IRL, in the US military, all hazing is officially forbidden, and most of the
> rituals have been stripped of everything but the name.  Unofficially, last
> time I was in contact with someone from the fleet, crow tacking, pinning,
> bloodstriping, etc... had all gone underground and was still very much a
> part of the lifestyle.  You just don't get caught doing it, and nobody who
> participates talks.

Yeah, that's basically how it still is.  The officers and such used to know 
and would look the other way (especially Mustangs), but more and more 
commanders are being relieved and the whip is generally being cracked, 
driving it to much more discrete methods.  You have the fools who go too far, 
permanently injuring people, etc, too.  Then the really dim who videotape 
such things.  Most are pretty tame and good natured.

ob Trav.  Odds are such traditions are maintained and practiced by Solomani 
units, but what about the Vilani?  Doesn't seem to go w/ my conception of 
them, though they still practice jump dimming, etc.  It's more than possible. 
 Anyone have any ideas on Vilani "hazing?"  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 03:30:45 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

> > From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
> > Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509
>  
> > Adventure hook:  PCs are sucked into a "kill the landlord!" revolt on a
> > remote agricultural world.  The world government has to pay double fees (1.
> 
> > The characters can be mercenaries brought in to
> > crush the rebels and restore order, or they can be Imperial Marines sent in
> > to crush the rebels, restore order, then rebuild the government and
> > population's faith in the Imperium...
> 
> Or, for a twist, they can be hired by the rebels as training or
> stiffening cadre, or as a special operations unit (sort of like The
> Magnificent Seven, which I've always wanted to translate into a
> Traveller adventure).

A lotta plots from some of the more popular Hollywierd flicks would make good adventures.

Except of course for Titanic...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 04:00:45 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>

>Ok, just a question: What's wrong with the T4 Starships book?  (I don't
>have it, and have only glanced through it briefly.  My impression was that
>other than the art it was ok...)  
>
>Not trying to start a war, just honestly curious... 
>

 Well, lessee.

 -"Rather" loose interpretations of the artwork when building most of the 
deckplans.
 -Scaling inconsistencies (ie. the Ship's Boat is portrayed inacurately (or 
not at all) in other designs where it appears as a subcraft).
 -Interesting ideas regarding living spaces, working spaces, and the passages 
between these. The Scout ship being a classic example: getting to the 
engineering spaces requires squeezing through a 0.5 meter gap between Cargo 
and some other item.
 -The three-story-tall walk-in closets the Subsidized Liner calls Cargo.
 -placement of several color plates dead in the center of the ship design 
rules.
 -questionable Traveller usefulness of those color plates.
 -questionable editing of the ship design rules.
 -the designs were done using QSDS (from the main rulebook), and as a result 
can't always be duplicated using the SSDS system in THIS book.
 -so little color text that this book makes MTs Fighting Ships of the 
Shattered Imperium look positively chatty by comparison (and Starships is 
about ADVENTURING ships!).
 -primitive/thoughtless layout and design (I mean, really now. BLACK pages?)
 -...

 I'm sure others could come up with more, but my point is this: If you are a 
completist, and can find this book for <$5, pick it up. The two or three 
useable pages in this book do not warrant picking it up for more.

GC

ps: I fixed the Subsidized Liner.  Go see:
  http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html
 and follow the "starships" link. At the moment it also appears in the "New" 
section.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:55:40 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: adventure hooks

> From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

> ObTrav:A group of Imperial Citizens on a high tech world that are armed
> with recreational weapons have to hold off an invasion force until a relief
> force of Army or Marines arrive. The PC's as ex-military members get drafted into
> leading the resistance.

A noble takes a hunting party (including the PCs) to his/her private
game preserve.  While they're away, the commoners revolt.  A force of
commoners armed with weapons taken from the military heads for the game
preserve.  The noble party must defend the hunting lodge or a cave where
they're holed up, or something similar with hunting rifles and whatever
other weapons the PCs (being PCs) smuggled along for the trip -- and
their wits.  

Opportunities for role-playing abound as whoever has access to commo
tries to get help from the military (of dubious reliability), from other
world leaders (balkanized world, maybe? be creative), from the Imperium
("sorry, that's a matter of internal governance; we're obligated not to
interfere" or "we'd like to help you, but all four Marines stationed
here are involved in guarding Imperial facilities (or the starport)"),
etc.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:06:25 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)

> From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> Subject: Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)
> 
> >       Hans Rancke
> > Just because it was first invented around 1080-90 dosen't mean it has to
> be
> > TL 16. It just has to be an entirely new idea. THe reason that those
> > capacitors can't be built in the Spinward Marches could be the simple one
> > that the manufacture is still a secret, or at the very least still owned
> > by the inventor.
> 
> I hadn't thought about this... but what's stopping someone from stealing
> another persons idea? The imperium is so large... it would be hard to keep
> tabs on who's trying to sell what. Even if the manufacture of drop tanks is
> a secret... it shouldn't be too hard to reverese engineer one and figure it
> out. ...and even though the idea is owned by the inventor who lives, say on
> capital. He wouldn't know that someone is the Spinward Marches was using
> his idea. and even if he did find out... he wouldn't be able to do much about
> it.
> 
> Just an interesting thought... could make an interesting adventure. Guy
> hires the group to find out who's stealing his ideas and stop them...

Suppose the inventor -- or at least the patent owner -- is a
megacorporation (which seems likely).  Megacorporations are very
vigilant about their intellectual property, and have lawyers and
investigators in every sector or even subsector who are in charge of
just that.  (See the feature article on SuSAG, LIC, in JTAS.)  The one
who stole the idea is probably also a good-sized company.  So the PCs
might be engaged as independent contractors to engage in some self-help
against the other company, or to gather evidence, as the lawyers
commence litigation.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:20:36 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Aces and Eights (1188)

>Aces over Eights are known as "the dead man's hand" in stud poker
>because Wild Bill Hickock (sp?) was shot in the back while holding
>that hand.  He died.
>
>P.S. I have finals this week and next, wish me luck!
>
>Perceval

There was a cool adventure in one of the earlier Journals called aces and
eights that dealt with pokerhands etc. I think it was done by one or both
of the Keith brothers (a fairly safe bet, early they basically wrote the
entire journal themselves). After that adventure we started experimenting
with various poker rules for Traveller that I tend to rewrite every two
months or so. There is a slightly illegal poker championship held at a
secret location (to the public) every year. All interesting crooks and
criminals go there and declare "peace" during the event. Add a couple of
Imperial Revenue Service men, a couple of Naval Intelligence spooks and the
odd assortment of psions and you get a pretty interesting setting, all IMTU
of course.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:26:20 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: something to keep in mind when designing staterooms...

>http://cnn.com/TECH/ptech/9904/27/japan.brainyhomes.ap/
>
>CNN article on new high tech homes in Japan.
>
>The toliets weigh you and measure your blood sugar level.
>Cameras and motion detectors track you through the place...
>
>Didn't Greg Bear come up with the idea of toliets being part of the house
>autodoc system in one of his books about 2 years ago?

Either the toilets themselves or some smart system in the plumbing IMTU.
The units check for any illnesses etc but thay can also be used to check
for use of illegal substances.

Yes, in the future, muckracking journalism will take on an entirely new meaning.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:31:07 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Nazi Obsessions (Was: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)

>Yep, you are right there. Even I must admit, that the style (fashion and
>public appearance)
>of the nazi regime were the coolest looking. They were designed to impress
>people.
>It is no wonder that even today, Science Fiction Films model future regimes
>dresses like the Nazis. Just look at "Verhoevens Starship Troopers".
>This however does not mean one agrees with their politics/policies.

I think you missed the point there. They were made to look like Nazis
because the film was shot to look like a fascist propaganda film. When
watching it (aside from getting totally mindboggled at the weird physics in
place - Verhoevens physics) I liked the intended similarities to Gulf war
propaganda as portrayed by the media.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:45:59 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

At 20:06 27.04.99 -0400, you wrote:

>This is a very dangerous argument.  At what point do we restrict something
>as _potentially_ dangerous?  Many more people die in car accidents than
>ever do from guns, but we don't ban cars.  After all "Sure people want
>them, but free access is just too dangerous," sounds silly in that context
>doesn't it?  

Ah, but most people _need_ cars, whereas people usually do not _need_ guns!
Why allow potentially dangerous item possession to those who do not really 
need it? That just opens the door for trouble!
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:50:21 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Terran countries and Alien Races compared

>>>I'm also more inclined to think of the Zhos as the Persians. Vargr as
>>>Germans fits though.
Aha, and how did you see that?
The Vargr to me seem like the exact opposite of the attributes generally
attributed to Germans:
"Law and Order", Punctuality, Order in its normal sense, discipline,
reserved etc.
Vargr usually are untrustworthy, prone to disobey rules, whimsical,
agressive, etc.

Semms like the old prejudices / opinions of us germans are slowly breaking
up. :-)

I always figured the Vargr to be more like the Serbs, Kroats, hell, like
the Balcans in general. At least they are also always fighting amonst
themselves, cant really be trusty (their leaders in any case).
>>
The Solomani were always a bit like a mix of Nazi Germany and the former
East-Germany, in my book, in attitude, though not in action.
The extreme suppression of other ideas, political groups, the party being
the all and everything, invading even family life....


>The Zhodani dont *want* to expand. They dont want to absorb all those
>Imperials, for a start. All they want is to make it clear that Imperial
>expansion must be frozen at or about the border established by the initial
>Frontier Wars.
Anient China or Japan in my book. Ancient traditions and a do not disturb
attitude towards the 3I (Imperialist America if the late 1880s to early
1900s or the British Empire of long ago).
Only difference that the Zhos are more equally matched than China or Japan
were.

The Hivers do not have a direct counterpart in my book and i dont really
see the KKree, Droyne or Aslan either.


>I actually think the Second Civil War sans virus would have been about as
>destructive as, say, the Hundred Years War plus the Wars of Religion were
>in France, or the Peasants Revolt plus the Thirty Years War in Germany.
>Lots of damage, lots of tragedies, but enough infrastructure left to rebuild.
Dont forget the plague. 
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:50:35 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Surface based Black Globes

>Actually its even worse. Blackglobes in an atmosphere is abig no-no. 
>The blackglobe absorbs all energy so the energy from the atmosphere 
>as it is cooled to 0 K will overload the capacitors and blow 
>everything up. Possibly it will also absorb potential energy (caused 
>by gravity) speeding this up even more.

Hmm, how about building a black globe covering an entire world? 
The power could come from its core, its range big enough not to interfere
with the atmosphere...
Voila, perfect invulnerability. Which is exactly why _I_ wont allow
anything like it in my universe! 
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:18:08 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

>CT isnt at all happy with that idea, once you plug High Guard into it.
>
>In High Guard, an Energy Point is at or about 250 MW.

>Now, if the hydrogren is having it's energy extracted before jump, then we
>are dealing with e=mc^2.

>A dton of hydrogen is therefore e=10^9*(3*10^9)^2, or 10^9*3*10^18, or
>3*10^27 joules.

 Assuming total conversion, which may not be a corrrect.asumption.
But let's accept that for now, because that's a lot of energy.
Perhaps enough to warp space-time...

>This becomes a slightly less insane 3*10^21 mejajoules, or a quite
>reasonable 10^19 energy points at 250 MW an energy point - actually, call
>it 3 orders of magnitude less, because you are extracting it over 1000
>seconds or so. 10^16 is therefore our number.

>Given therefore that a type R meson gun needs a mere 20 000 EP or so (a
>measly 2*10^4), why cant we strap a Free Trader's jump drive to the back of
>one and have power coming out of our ears ?

OK, here's where I sketch the solution.

For a start, it's not the jump drive that creates power from hydrogen.
because it's already been shown that the jump drive can take power from
_any_ ultra-high current source to power it, such as a black globe's
capacitors.

That large amount of  power must be discharged rapidly to warp spacetime and
kick the ship into jump space.
(I'm assuming maintenance of the jump field via the lanthanum grid actually
takes relatively little power, and coming out is more a factor of the
gravity well you hit, as per the rules allowing a ship to exit J-space
before it's destination if it hots a rogue stellar mass on it's "path". )

This implies a very high current "switch" of some sort needs to be thrown
when you're ready to jump.

That switch, because of the amount of power involved, needs to go from open
circuit to closed in as short a time as possible, because for the duration
of the switching it will be soaking that entire potential diffference.
Taking that further, _unless_ you are going to discharge all that power in
one go, you need something capable of regulating the current equivalent of
your 3*10^21 MJ

So, the reason you can't power a 20,000 EP R Meson from the jump capacitors
is because the technology to regulate current at those power levels doesn't
exist, only the binary off/on switching technology exists.  And we can go
further, and state that the  binary switching is "once-only", like a
thyristor or SCR, i.e: we can't use pulse techniques to regulate it, because
we can't turn it off again.
without removing all the power from it or slagging the switch

So, yes, it _would_ be possible to power some (currently imaginary) factor
XXX meson gun from the single discharge of your jump capacitors, but trying
to power something as "small" as an R meson results only in a melted pile of
scrap metal where your meson gun used to be.

A nice GM might let you get one extra powerful shot out of your destructing
meson, like a detonation laser, or he might not, ruling that the meson
cooking also takes out other systems. (i.e, the rest of the ship)

Yes, this allows the possibility of super powerful single shot weapon
systems out there somewhere....

But even that could be eliminated merely by stating that no-one's been able
to build a weapon (so far) tthat can use all that power without slagging,
and the only reason the jump drive can handle the power is that it no longer
exists in real space at the instant it activates and takes all the
power.....

This suggests that "timing problems" of mere nano-seconds between activating
the power feed switch and the jump unit could cause a huge secondary
discharge into surrounding equipment resulting in catastrophic system
damage. (i.e: the ship blows up )

Obviously, the two switches need to be tightly ganged...

And yes, I now have this picture in my head of the ship's engineer throwing
one of those huge pole switches beloved of Frankenstien movies and such
(though nothing like that would be able to handle this sort of current )
<grin>

Frankly, one of the reasons I like this idea is that it emphaizes how
_dangerous_ jump drives are, because of the amount of energy  you're
throwing around.


>Finally, the description of the Trikhama-Brilliance tragedy is a press
>release, and a good read. But eschew Gloranthaism - dont regard old sources
>as better, just because they are older (1).

Yeah, but I only use new sources when they don't break the old ones,,
:-)

>Ian Whitchurch
>
>(1) Compare for example the boring mundanity of the description of the
>Seven Mothers in 'Gods of Prax' with the sublimity of the far more modern
>'Pelorian Rhapsody'.

"Gods of Prax" ?
Is that an Avalon Hill thing ?
:-)

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:56:57 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

>> Probably wear Ine Gevar (sp?) t-shirts while at said rallies too.
>
> This kind of attitude is why I have an obligatory "club the hippies" 
>scene in everyone of my adventures.

Is that before or after the "club the baby fur seals" scene ?

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:47:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: heavy sigh...

In mail you write:

> However the killing sprees by crazed loners which have triggered the
> various legislative acts (the latest being Dunblane, resulting in
> laws passed against handguns in 1996-7) were committed using legally
> held firearms, and the view (according to the opinion polls, which
> heavily supported these laws) has been that depriving everyone else
> is a price worth paying for the (statistically small) number of lives
> that are likely to be saved.

Here in the states, the guns used in the school shootings have all been
obtained illegally. 

> Sure, crazed loners will still go on sprees, but hopefully they'll
> use knives instead of guns, and kill less people.  Runs the argument.

And the presence of bombs in the latest incident puts the lie to that.
The news has made little mention of what *I* consider the scariest part
of the incident. The kids had placed a pair of 35 pound bombs in the
school kitchen, attached to the propane tanks used by the stoves. From
the one picture I saw, these look to be the type of tank that is ~18"
(.5m) in diameter and 3 ft (1 m) tall. 

Setting off a pair of bombs attached to such tanks would have done a
damn good job of *leveling* the school. Why they didn't go off, I don't
know. But the bomb count in the school keeps going up. 

> ObTrav - the general crime level is likely to be a function more of the 
> economic/social structure of a system than of its law level.

My own ObTrav: the world's with the highest law levels will have the
*nastiest* incidents involving improvised weapons.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:55:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flashes

In mail you write:

> ObTrav: gotta love them unit-specific traditions.
> I'm thinking of the ritual in the US Navy where they do a kind of hazing
> for new crewmen the first time they cross the equator on a Navy ship.

Actually, there are rituals for crossing the Equator, the Zero
meridian, and the International dateline. Those I'm *sure* of. There
may also be ones for the Arctic and Antarctic Circles.

> Would Marines in the 3I have a similar ritual for troopers on their first
> jump? Something to pass the time in the hole.

Probably not for the first *combat* jump. But for the first *real*
jump? Oh yeah...

> I have this image of a rookie climbing into a drop capsule while the old
> hands fill it up with something festive, yet unpleasant to be doused in. <G>

I've got it. Tradition says that for your first shore leave after
qualifying, you have to land using a personal re-entry kit. No fair
going down in the shuttle. It's also traditional to try to land
someplace difficult (requiring skill, say the top of a building or a
mountain peak) or annoying (say the Governor's swimming pool during a
party.) 

Extra status points if you can keep the Shore Patrol from proving it
was you. And even more if you can maintain your innocence *and* prove
to your buddies that you did it. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:08:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flashes

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 4/27/99 8:17:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> rick_stump@yahoo.com writes:
>
> <<  Military rituals, especially the unit-specific ones of the NCOs, will
>  be rather physical and probably barbaric to outsiders. In
>  well-disciplined, professional units the participants will be sore but
>  not injured - anything that injures harms morale and readiness, after
>  all.
>   >>
>
> yeah; the US media went ballistic with the "bloodpinning"...

And I know a fair number of people who do far more "extreme" things for
*fun*. They thought the media was being silly.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #517
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 518



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Silly adventure idea
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: heavy sigh...
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...
Re: Travellernomics
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)
Re: CT character gen programs
Vilani Patents (was: Copyright)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #517
Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power
Re: Hazing Rituals (Real Life example)
re: Hazing Rituals
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
Re: Background hook: New starport
Fuel Stations (was travellernomics)
Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 03:06:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

In mail you write:

>> (snip)..., but if these kids of weapons were restricted to begin
>> with, the tragedy could have been averted. I saw a list of the
>> weapons they had -- most of which are, in Canada, illegal for a
>> private citizen to own.

> Exactly! I mean I'd like to own guns, but they are restricted in
> Germany and I agree to this policy, because I know that if I had free
> access to guns, everybody else would have, too.

> And there are elements of society which should not be able to get
> guns this easily. But detecting them before they go on a rampage is
> nigh impossible.  So I agree, that while guns are not "The Problem"
> (Guns are never bad by themselves, just the uses to which they are
> sometimes put), free access is just to dangerous.

Alas, free access to *information* is much harder to prevent. Much of
the stuff I know about the destructive uses that may be made of various
common chemicals came from *safety* manuals. 

So to get back to Traveller, consider the situation at higher TLs. High
school kids will be capable of making chemical and bio weapons (they
have that capability *now*). Nuclear weapons and other high tech
nasties will be possible. Ditto for genetic engineering to make even
nastier biohazards. 

Now have the characters get contacted by the local authorities to help
deal with a bunch of students who have smuggled in or recreated some
ancient weapon. Why contact them? Well, according to their service
records, they've handled one of these things in the past.... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:05:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Silly adventure idea

This idea resulted from comments about odd measurements ("hands") and
the large number of ads for a made for TV movie...

A large vessel is found orbiting an Earthlike world. It's constructed
of an odd organic material. There is evidence that it contained a
*large number of animals of a *wide* variety of species. There's no
apparent drive. Life support is *very* primitive.

The vessel is a bit over 200 meters long. I don't have the other
dimensions handy. 

Upon inspection, the planet proves to contain a lot of species
descended from Terran species.

<spoiler space>


The vessel is 450 cubits long. And it is made of "gopher wood".  The
other dimensions can be found in the Lord's instructions to Noah in the
Old Testament.

I'd love to see how far into things you can get before the player's
figure out just what sort of shagy dog story you've handed them...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:12:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

In mail you write:

> At 09:27 PM 4/26/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>The question arises, how did the kids get access to those kinds of firearms?
>>Of course, you can practically get AK-47s out of coin-operated vending
>>machines in most of the USA. 
>
> A couple of minor points.
>
> 1> AK-47s are banned in most of the US, as are the 30-round magazines they
> use.
>
> 2> Every weapon purchase (expect private sales or at a gunshow) requires a
> minimum five day waiting period and backround checks.

There may be a 5 day waiting period for *handguns*. But not for long
arms. I was on a trip out of state, and one of the friends with me
bought a rifle during the trip. 

They can take several days for the background check, but usually you
clear during the same call that they submit the info. In my friend's
case, they didn't get an immediate response and we checked back just
before the store closed. When they called back, it turned out that
she'd cleared in a couple of minutes, but nobody had bothered to call
the store back!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:20:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

In mail you write:

>>When I was in High School, I wore an offcier's cap from the People'd
>>Liberation Army, completes with red star on the brow.  I did this to piss
>>people off more than anything else, because it was the early 80s and
>>communism was still a legitamate hate target.  I think many of these kids
>>get into things like studying nazism and Marilyn Manson just to get a
>>reaction out of adults.
>
>
> Personally, I was fond of West German army gear. It wasn't because I had a
> desire to bother anyone though. It was simply because German army gear looks
> nifty.

Heck, I wore USAF fatigues and flight boots, simply because we had
privileges at the local air base and they were both cheap and sturdy. 

So I expect that the kids of retired/deceased Army, Navy & Marine
personnel might be wearing fatigues both because they look cool and
because their parents can buy them cheap. 

I can see their friends wearing the Ine Givar stuff not caring, and an
impromtu game of football or the like getting reported as a "riot
between Ine Givar and Imperial supporters at a local high school".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:44:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: heavy sigh...

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-04-27 08:16:21 EDT, you write:
>
> << Ob-Trav:  Why is that the players who whine the loudest about not being 
> able 
>  to wander the streets of every planet without several gauss guns are the 
> ones
>  who push for strict victim disarment laws in RL? >>
>
> it's oh so simple guy, it's the standard liberial/left-winger response to 
> something. 
>
> they want something for themselves, but not for any one else.

Classic example was the columnist(?) in Washington DC a few years back.
He'd been *loudly* anti-gun since forever. Then came the day he was
arrested for shooting a burglar. Even though gun ownership is illegal
in DC (in no small part due to his efforts and those of his allies),
*he* had one anyway, and used it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:28:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

In mail you write:

> Hazing rituals shouldn't be destructive or overly embarrassing, just a
> reminder that "you aren't one of us.. yet."  The Navy's shellback ceremony
> is actually a lot of fun, from what I've heard, and the Airborne cherry
> helmet gets you a lot of ribbing but no real threat.
>
> We had a thread a while back on the macguffin hunts units would send
> newbies on, and I think these types of tricks would be the most common.

"Hey you! Yeah you, the new Starman 1st..."
"Yes, sir!"
"Don't salute me, I work for a living!"
<hurriedly reading stripes>
"Sorry, Senior Chief"
"Yeah, yeah. Look, run down to engineering. We're having trouble with
the flourescents in the landing bay. Tell them I need a couple of
gallons of plasma. Now move!"

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:32:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...

In mail you write:

> No, really!
>
> Somebody on one of the OT threads mention a variety of dangerous objects,
> including cricket bats.
> I picked one up while I was in Joburg last year.  Brought it on the
> airplane in my carry on luggage (with the handle sticking out of the bag.)
> It's got a great feel to the swing (English Willow hand carved in India).
> I've been modifying Chinese broadsword forms for it.
>
> In a high law level area, sporting goods can be a great asset in a riot.
> Ban on knives, bring in religious items.  Ceremonial blades for Wiccan
> services.  Just make sure these can take a good edge once you get them in.

As any witch can tell you, an object for "symbolically" cutting things
(like protective circles) isn't much good if it *isn't* sharp! The
symbolism doesn't work.

So an athame *will* be sharp, unless it's for use in a ritual that
requires a *dull* knife.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:12:50 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Travellernomics

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> I didn't care much for the vanilla system started in Merchant Princes &
> continued on ad nauseum down the line to the present T4.  Haven't seen G:T
> yet, so I have no clue what they're doing...

You won't be impressed by the meager, to put it politley, trade rules in
G:T.  What you want is GT:Far Trader.

[/shameless plug]

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:19:40 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

At 01:03 28/04/1999 +0200, Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
>Phil Kitching writes:
>
>>>L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the
>>>interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor
>>>engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped
>> 
>>So it's a benefit of TL16 jump drives?
>>Its a shame none of the design systems mention this.
>
>Just because it was first invented around 1080-90 dosen't mean it has to be
>TL 16. It just has to be an entirely new idea. THe reason that those
>capacitors can't be built in the Spinward Marches could be the simple one
>that the manufacture is still a secret, or at the very least still owned
>by the inventor.

Since jump drives have been around for 10 millennia and it's only in
the late 1000s when the Imperium is just reaching TL16 that the
means to design jump drives that can use drop tanks becomes available,
surely assuming that the new jump drives are TL16 is more logical than
assuming that they aren't and no one noticed.

Even if it's just a TL16 widget that can be bolted onto a TL9 drive.

IMO, for the past millennia researchers have been improving jump drives,
adding an extra parsec every few hundred years when a new discovery
comes along. Finally, although controlled Jump-7 is not discovered,
high tech capacitors are invented, which will allow the use of drop tanks
and black globes. Presumably, further advances reduce the LHyd needed
(MT) and ultimately lead to antimatter and Annic Nova drives.

If "recent advances in the field of capacitor engineering" don't equate
to TL16 (or at least TL15), then what is the point of the TL system?

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:21:46 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> > I hadn't thought about this... but what's stopping someone from stealing
> > another persons idea? The imperium is so large... it would be hard to keep
> > tabs on who's trying to sell what. Even if the manufacture of drop tanks is
> > a secret... it shouldn't be too hard to reverese engineer one and figure it
> > out. ...and even though the idea is owned by the inventor who lives, say on
> > capital. He wouldn't know that someone is the Spinward Marches was using
> > his idea. and even if he did find out... he wouldn't be able to do much about
> > it.
> >
> > Just an interesting thought... could make an interesting adventure. Guy
> > hires the group to find out who's stealing his ideas and stop them...
>
> Suppose the inventor -- or at least the patent owner -- is a
> megacorporation (which seems likely).  Megacorporations are very
> vigilant about their intellectual property, and have lawyers and
> investigators in every sector or even subsector who are in charge of
> just that.  (See the feature article on SuSAG, LIC, in JTAS.)  The one
> who stole the idea is probably also a good-sized company.  So the PCs
> might be engaged as independent contractors to engage in some self-help
> against the other company, or to gather evidence, as the lawyers
> commence litigation.

There is some canon on this about patents and such in the history of
the Vilani.  IIRC, there is rather weak patent protection, or its extremely
difficult to get one.  (I should really pay more attention to that stuff,
after all the Intellectual Property I studied in law school).  The upshot
is that there is extremely little economic incentive to innovate.  I think
that was one of the excuses given for the extremely slow technological
advancement rate of the Vilani when compared to the Solomani.
And since the 3I is still heavily Vilani in culture, much the same is true
for the 3I.

Sorry that I can't recall the canon references for this offhand.

As far as the scenario above goes, more likely IMO is outright
industrial espionage and sabotage.  Although, for a truly significant
item, worthy of an Imperial patent, and making a big step to the
next TL, the litigation may be allowed to proceed.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:09:58 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> > Does anybody know the Url for any Character generation programs for CT?
>
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/8037/travcgen.zip
>

Yesterday, I was experimenting with CT chargen.  Something I haven't done
in a long time.  Discovered something interesting.  The Chargen rules in
Book 1 are heavily skewed towards the Army.

If you have a character that rolls only 7s (3s and 4s),
if he joins the Army, after 3 terms, he will have 9 skills.
If he joins any other career (including Navy and Marines
which can only be reached via the Draft), he gets substantially
less skills per term.

I actually went to the trouble of doing the same thing for
Mercenary and High Guard Chargen.  Dramatically better.
Only with these systems can you approach the 1.25 skills/year
average that Marc M. built into T4 and T5beta (although,
certain special schools generate lots of skills - the overall
average of all special schools was 1.8 skills per school).

If anyone is interested, I could post the results.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:11:00 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Vilani Patents (was: Copyright)

Date sent:      	Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:21:46 -0400
From:           	Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

>There is some canon on this about patents and such in the history of
>the Vilani.  IIRC, there is rather weak patent protection, or its extremely
>difficult to get one.  (I should really pay more attention to that stuff,
>after all the Intellectual Property I studied in law school).  The upshot
>is that there is extremely little economic incentive to innovate.  I think
>that was one of the excuses given for the extremely slow technological
>advancement rate of the Vilani when compared to the Solomani.
>And since the 3I is still heavily Vilani in culture, much the same is true
>for the 3I.

Its in V&V. However, I'd actually say that the Vilani Patent system is a
lot *stronger* than Solomani (read Westminster). Firstly, patents are
held by the caste and are in perpetuity. Secondly, a Vilani patent not
only gives you perpetual rights to the innovation, but to all subsequent
developments of that innovation. It's this latter part that was the big
disincentive to innovation. If you came up with a bright idea based on
an already existing concept, not only could you not patent it, but you
would also be liable for a major fine and/or lengthy imprisionment for
patent violation. Thus only the caste that held a patent would try to
develop on it.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:05:15 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #517

>From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
>Subject: Terran countries and Alien Races compared
>
>>>>I'm also more inclined to think of the Zhos as the Persians. Vargr as
>>>>Germans fits though.
>Aha, and how did you see that?

Volker, it's the total party-animal attitude and very bad dress sense.

Seriously, I was comparing to Germans in the time of the Roman Empire -
lots of them, disorganised and tending to invade frequently.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:20:01 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power

>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tanks
>
>For a start, it's not the jump drive that creates power from hydrogen.
>because it's already been shown that the jump drive can take power from
>_any_ ultra-high current source to power it, such as a black globe's
>capacitors.

This is much less of a problem. As long as jump drives dont turn hydrogen
into energy, Ditzie wont whine about not being allowed to use them to power
Very Very Big Guns, and those people down at Maaaarketing wont ask why they
cant run Rhylanor's entire planetary power grid (for which 3*10^21 MW could
suffice) off a type A's jump drive.

>That large amount of  power must be discharged rapidly to warp spacetime and
>kick the ship into jump space.
>(I'm assuming maintenance of the jump field via the lanthanum grid actually
>takes relatively little power, and coming out is more a factor of the
>gravity well you hit, as per the rules allowing a ship to exit J-space
>before it's destination if it hots a rogue stellar mass on it's "path". )

Fine.

>
>This implies a very high current "switch" of some sort needs to be thrown
>when you're ready to jump.
>
>That switch, because of the amount of power involved, needs to go from open
>circuit to closed in as short a time as possible, because for the duration
>of the switching it will be soaking that entire potential diffference.
>Taking that further, _unless_ you are going to discharge all that power in
>one go, you need something capable of regulating the current equivalent of
>your 3*10^21 MJ

If this is true, then this technologies should be able to be applied to
capacitors for other high energy applications.

>But even that could be eliminated merely by stating that no-one's been able
>to build a weapon (so far) tthat can use all that power without slagging,
>and the only reason the jump drive can handle the power is that it no longer
>exists in real space at the instant it activates and takes all the
>power.....

Please dont say that 'No-one's ever built a weapon that can use all that
power' around Ditzie :) Do we still have that Lab Ship design floating
around ? Ditzie is wondering if Maaaarketing would think if there would be
a market for an armed version ...

>
>This suggests that "timing problems" of mere nano-seconds between activating
>the power feed switch and the jump unit could cause a huge secondary
>discharge into surrounding equipment resulting in catastrophic system
>damage. (i.e: the ship blows up )
>
>Obviously, the two switches need to be tightly ganged...
>
>And yes, I now have this picture in my head of the ship's engineer throwing
>one of those huge pole switches beloved of Frankenstien movies and such
>(though nothing like that would be able to handle this sort of current )
><grin>
>
>Frankly, one of the reasons I like this idea is that it emphaizes how
>_dangerous_ jump drives are, because of the amount of energy  you're
>throwing around.

I think the fact that 'Oh yeah, and sometimes you dont come out' is pretty
decent :) Plus the fact that no-one seems to know exactly how they work ...

>>(1) Compare for example the boring mundanity of the description of the
>>Seven Mothers in 'Gods of Prax' with the sublimity of the far more modern
>>'Pelorian Rhapsody'.
>
>"Gods of Prax" ?
>Is that an Avalon Hill thing ?
>:-)

Gods of Prax ? Cults of Prax :) Y'know, I've been having these strange
dreams lately ...
something about this bloke called Ar-something.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 05:51:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Stump <rick_stump@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (Real Life example)

 True story to demonstrate. Me (squad leader) and my assistant are in
the motor pool (back when I was in the same unit as Black Ice) and a
brand-spankin'-new female lieutenant walked up. 
Lt: 'What's wrong, sergeant?'
Me: 'Well, ma'am, we need a left-handed spanner to fix Charlie 42 (a
vehicle number) and we can't get one from the tool room.'
Lt:'I'll take care of it!'
 off she goes. I figured the tool room sgt. would laugh and tell her -
but noooooo. He told her it was being used by a team in another
company, who told her it had been borrowed by another battalion, who
finally collapsed in laughter. She came back 2 hours later after
finding out that a spanner is a type of wrench. She was laughing -
after that she was 'L.T.' not 'ma'am'; she had 'passed' by being a good
sport. If she had been pissed and tried to retaliate, we would have
written her off as a martinet.
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:08:12 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Hazing Rituals

Douglas Glatz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not to throw a damper on the enthuisiasm of the idea, but the ritual you are
talking about will cost more than what most of the participants will make in
any given enlistment.  So having access to resources like 'fixed'
battledress and a drop pod, even for an official ceromony, seem to be a bit
remote.  The armorer will have to account for these items after all, and
should anything happen to the 'victim', all hell would break loose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was thinking of this when I wrote it, but didn't really develop the idea.
I referred to what they put the recruit in as a "capsule" - it doesn't have
to be a full-fledged Drop Pod. It could be the empty shell of one of those 
throwaway decoy pods, or even a large enough garbage can. Get something
light enough so the Marines can toss it around without needing Battledress.

Your ideas need spacesuits/hardsuits, access to the Spinal tube, MMU's,
 EVA ops...I agree that it needs to be simpler, but I think it needs to be
even simpler than you were thinking of.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:33:45 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

>ObTrav: In the Spinward Marches, might teens young adults find the Zhodani
>way of life a way of rebellion?  Marching for psionic rights, demanding
>detente..

... wearing Zhodani-style turbans...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:56:58 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514

>>So I agree, that while guns are not "The Problem" (Guns are never bad by
>>themselves, just the uses to which they are sometimes put), free access is
>>just to dangerous.
>
>This is a very dangerous argument.  At what point do we restrict something
>as _potentially_ dangerous?  Many more people die in car accidents than
>ever do from guns, but we don't ban cars.  After all "Sure people want
>them, but free access is just too dangerous," sounds silly in that context
>doesn't it?  

Cars have a purpose other than killing: getting from point A to point B.
What purpose does a gun have other than to kill or inflict severe injury?


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:53:20 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

SRKOALA@aol.com types out
>In a message dated 99-04-27 23:31:20 EDT, you write:
><< Jules Verne "From the Earth to the Moon". Tampa (opposite side of the
> penninsula from Kennedy) was the site of the cannon that launched the
> vehicle. 
> Hmmm. I wonder if that would work on a size 1 planet? :-) >>
>I would work hear on good Terra-Ferma.  A sci fair project that just did was 
>about it.  By using a massive coil gun (dug into a pit in the ground, no 
>less) you could asserate a space craft past exsape velocity, dramticaly 
>reducing the weight that you need to put into orbit.
>- -Stephen

Take a look at the following book
The Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy in Eight Easy Steps by
Marshall T. Savage 
Here's an Amazon link: 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316771635/eclipsswebwarren/002-72260
92-9981402

He describes a rail gun built into the side of a mountain near the equator.
 The top of the mountain has lasers mounted.  You fling the capsule up via
the rail gun, then lase the chunk of ice on the bottom of the craft.
Tosses the craft into orbit rather nicely.

This a good gearhead book.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:00:11 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics)

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A 5KT station is at *least* 500 MCr just for the *hull*.  Per HG, if it's a 
sphere, the hull price goes down to 350MCr.  

<snip thorough and accurate accounting of construction costs>

You're already up to almost 750 MCr and you haven't even 
added life support costs.  These are *throwaway* stations?????????  We're 
looking at a budget of about a *billion*, something a *government* would 
have problems justifying, let alone protecting.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What if the fueling station is a small module, say 400dtns, floating on
station with some big cheap fuel tanks?

The computer minimums (in HG) are an abstraction for military sensor
arrays IMO - a fueling station might want military-grade sensors if
it's supposed to double as an observation station, but they should be
optional - and certainly shouldn't be priced based on the displacement
of the fuel tanks.

Should a fuel station's power plant need to be big enough to provide
Power-1 to the fuel tanks? How much powered maintenance does LHyd
need in interstellar space? I don't know the answer to this question.

I think the computer requirements and bridge requirements for an immobile
space station should be lower than those for a warship, or even a 
commercial craft. Still, these things can get expensive.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:05:26 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements

- ----------
> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
> Date: Monday, 26 April, 1999 4:04 PM

Sorry to respond to two people in one post, but I'm in a hurry.
 
> It would also fit with older Traveller material, where crew were linear
> with the size of the system. Maybe we could get this made official for
GT?

Probably worth a try, when Starships comes up for playtest.  (Is someone
writing this already?)
 
> For example, a TL10 spinal mount (p. GT157), which includes a
> >18983.3 MW power plant slice, would require 76 maintenance crew (about
1/20
> >spaces). The TL12 meson spinal mount would require 19 (~1/80).

I lost a step in you calculation here; why do TL 10 power plants require so
much more maintenance than TL 12 plants?

We could just use the same guidelines as for maneuver drives of the same
TL.  That might be a fair rule of thumb, although there's no calculation to
back it up.
 
> As well, a single large system (like a spinal weapon) is added as a
really
> _big_ module, so you can use the sqrt formula without much problem.
> 
> IIRC, you've already calculated that bays are reasonably covered with 2
> crew, so it's only spinal mounts and screens that we need to calculate.

That was me.  I think that my calculation probably goes out the door if you
drop the square root without using some other divisor to reduce the end
result, a bay NPAW requires 110 hours per day.  That's bad, very bad.  The
fact that it isn't in constant use helps a lot, but I don't know how to
figure out how much.  What's the duty cycle for a ship's weapon systems (1
percent? 10 percent?)

> Spinals are a single big module, so no problem. Screens however grow as
> many small modules. A formula?  Ignore?  A rule-of-thumb?

Screens clearly need a linear figure like maneuver drives.  I picked 1/8
for dampers just to get a crew of 2-4 for the typical sized dampers(30-35
mile range is enough for almost any application) , bringing them sort of in
line with HG.  The crew of 1/100 for Meson screens was chosen to keep the
crew down to a reasonable level.  Most GT major warships need 1000+tons of
meson screen, much of it actually powerplant, so 1/1000 yielded "sensible"
crew sized in line with maneuver drives (which tend to eat up about half
the crew in warships I've designed.  
 
> >This will clearly have to be a topic of discussion for GT: Starships.
> 
> Yup.

So will total crew size for large ships.  I just realized that my armored
cruiser design only needs about 760 maintenance man hours a day..  With a
crew of over 460, that works out to about 2 hours each, even if you
discount the officers entirely.  Recalculating the few key systems (mainly
the m-drive) using the Far Trader rule cuts the crew down significantly,
back down toward HG levels.  I'm toying with doing this just for maneuver
drives and maybe jump drives (although the current system actually provides
fewer jump-drive techs than the Far Trader rule would imply.)  
 
Tom Schoene

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #518
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 519



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Hazing Rituals
Re: Surface based Black Globes
Re: melee weapons
re: Surface-Based Black Globes
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
Re: Background hook: New starport
Re: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics)
re: Fuel Stations
Re: Surface based Black Globes
e: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Really non-PC behavior was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
You give Hollyweird too much credit
Re: Silly adventure idea
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia 
Re: You give Hollyweird too much credit
Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
Re: Background hook: New starport
Re: CT character gen programs
Re: Travellernomics
Re: Patches
Re: melee weapons
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: geocities
Re: Silly adventure idea
Re: Patches
Re: Subsectors names for the Corridor sector

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:14:35 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Hazing Rituals

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Hey you! Yeah you, the new Starman 1st..."
"Yes, sir!"
"Don't salute me, I work for a living!"
<hurriedly reading stripes>
"Sorry, Senior Chief"
"Yeah, yeah. Look, run down to engineering. We're having trouble with
the flourescents in the landing bay. Tell them I need a couple of
gallons of plasma. Now move!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Cut to an hour later, when the Starman 1st returns pushing a big module
on a grav-pallet. Turns out he used to be a high-energy physics major,
who was kicked out of university for being a smartass... <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:23:34 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Surface based Black Globes

Volker Greimann posted:
>
>>Actually it's even worse. Blackglobes in an atmosphere is abig no-no. 
>>The blackglobe absorbs all energy so the energy from the atmosphere 
>>as it is cooled to 0 K will overload the capacitors and blow 
>>everything up. Possibly it will also absorb potential energy (caused 
>>by gravity) speeding this up even more.
>
>Hmm, how about building a black globe covering an entire world? 
>The power could come from its core, its range big enough not to interfere
>with the atmosphere...
>Voila, perfect invulnerability. Which is exactly why _I_ wont allow
>anything like it in my universe! 

Volker, this is less a reply to your specific post
and more a reply to anyone who may try this tactic.

IMO, this is the *worst* tactic any world could
attempt. Such a world is invulnerable to *all*
effects, including _normal_solar_heat_. 

Anybody care to figure how long it takes an
Earth-like atmosphere to begin cooling without
*any* solar energy being received by the planet?
The thermal effects, I believe, are as if the planet
was instantly dropped into intergalactic space,
thermally speaking.

There's also the psychological effects of living
on a world which has a pitch black sky. Having alot of
lighting on the surface really won't help.

Worldwide BG protection = the worst of nuclear winter
effects. A small fleet can guarantee the destruction
of any world which tries this tactic simply by whatever
it takes to ensure the locals keep the field up at all
times.

Also keep in mind a BG absorbs all energy which contacts
it from inside the field as well, including all energy
radiated by the planet. I don't think any molten-core
world can build enough capacitors to hold the energy
(lots of ignorant assuming here). Even a white globe
can absorb the energy from near-c plus rocks
be overloaded by enough near-c rocks.

The reason why Yaskodray won the Ancients war is that
*any* static defense can eventually be overcome. Note
I said "overcome", not "destroyed".

As a referee, whenever players start coming up with
an idea like this, I simply throw physics at them and
ask them to identify and solve all the problems because
all *I* have to do as a referee is identify one problem,
based in physics, which they missed.

Of course, I've lost players who didn't enjoy this
kind of realistic campaign but then I don't enjoy
refing/playing B-grade space opera. Too boring,
difficult to maintain, and leads to munchkinism.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:20:41 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: melee weapons

In a message dated 4/27/99 6:50:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
eclipse@ultranet.com writes:

<< Just ask any LEO or serious MA who has done disarm drills with simulated
 weapons 
 (squirt guns & chalk covered practice knives).
  >>

Yup; we were trained that anyone with a knife under 21 feet (7 meters) was an 
IMMEDIATE threat as they could run at you in under two seconds. They could 
stick you before you could draw a sidearm...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:27:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Surface-Based Black Globes

David Smart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMO, this is the *worst* tactic any world could
attempt. Such a world is invulnerable to *all*
effects, including _normal_solar_heat_. 

Anybody care to figure how long it takes an
Earth-like atmosphere to begin cooling without
*any* solar energy being received by the planet?
The thermal effects, I believe, are as if the planet
was instantly dropped into intergalactic space,
thermally speaking.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's OK. When the capacitators blow, it should heat the
planet back up again nicely. ;-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:34:49 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514

In a message dated 99-04-28 10:01:44 EDT, you write:

<< Cars have a purpose other than killing: getting from point A to point B.
 What purpose does a gun have other than to kill or inflict severe injury? >>

Killing dinner:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:36:26 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

In a message dated 99-04-28 10:07:01 EDT, you write:

<< He describes a rail gun built into the side of a mountain near the equator.
  The top of the mountain has lasers mounted.  You fling the capsule up via
 the rail gun, then lase the chunk of ice on the bottom of the craft.
 Tosses the craft into orbit rather nicely. >>

Yes, it would, alto you don't need ice, you can focus the laser beam so that 
it reflects off of the aft side of the starship and goes to a point behind 
it, ignighting the air, no fuel requiered.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:39:00 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics)

In a message dated 99-04-28 10:10:41 EDT, you write:

<< I think the computer requirements and bridge requirements for an immobile
 space station should be lower than those for a warship, or even a 
 commercial craft. Still, these things can get expensive. >>

As you don't have Mn and some En crew members you don't need as many Cn, 
there for smaller bridge.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:44:38 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fuel Stations

Stephen (SRKOALA@aol.com) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
<< I think the computer requirements and bridge requirements for an immobile
 space station should be lower than those for a warship, or even a 
 commercial craft. Still, these things can get expensive. >>

As you don't have Mn and some En crew members you don't need as many Cn, 
there for smaller bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was talking High Guard 2nd Ed - I've got to remember to identify the
design system in my posts. In HG, bridge requirements are based 
entirely on the displacement of the ship. It's just a feature (bug?) of
the level of abstraction used.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:59:15 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Surface based Black Globes

>Anybody care to figure how long it takes an
>Earth-like atmosphere to begin cooling without
>*any* solar energy being received by the planet?
>The thermal effects, I believe, are as if the planet
>was instantly dropped into intergalactic space,
>thermally speaking.

Canon black globes don't radiate heat either so the temperature would be as
it was the black globe turn-on: in equilibrium.

The problem is that all life relies on entropy for its sustenance so the
plants cannot use IR to grow and thus in the long run the world might have
a problem.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:35:20 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: e: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

>From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
>At 20:06 27.04.99 -0400, you wrote:
>>This is a very dangerous argument.  At what point do we restrict something
>>as _potentially_ dangerous?  Many more people die in car accidents than
>>ever do from guns, but we don't ban cars.  After all "Sure people want
>>them, but free access is just too dangerous," sounds silly in that context
>>doesn't it?  
>Ah, but most people _need_ cars, whereas people usually do not _need_ guns!
>Why allow potentially dangerous item possession to those who do not really 
>need it? That just opens the door for trouble!

   They don't *need* the cars.  They *need* better public transportation.
Cars in public hands are a actual (as oppossed to potentially) dangerous item.
Think of this way:
People really don't *need* fire extinguishers either...Most just sit around
and gather dust.
When you do need one, you need it right away.




- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:39:52 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Really non-PC behavior was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> bangs out:
>>> Probably wear Ine Gevar (sp?) t-shirts while at said rallies too.
>> This kind of attitude is why I have an obligatory "club the hippies" 
>>scene in everyone of my adventures.
>Is that before or after the "club the baby fur seals" scene ?

     Hell, combine 'em!  Club the Hippy Baby seals!
This is starting to remind me of that old bumber sticker:
"Nuke the Gay Baby Whales for Jesus."  :-)

   Now only if those hippy baby seals were reading Fab. Furry Freak
Brothers Comics while you club 'em. :-)

Just remember the words of Commander Cockroach, "There's plenty more were
they came from!"


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:31:46 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: You give Hollyweird too much credit

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) bangs out:
>>Yep, you are right there. Even I must admit, that the style (fashion and
>>public appearance)
>>of the nazi regime were the coolest looking. They were designed to impress
>>people.
>>It is no wonder that even today, Science Fiction Films model future regimes
>>dresses like the Nazis. Just look at "Verhoevens Starship Troopers".
>>This however does not mean one agrees with their politics/policies.
>I think you missed the point there. They were made to look like Nazis
>because the film was shot to look like a fascist propaganda film. 

Nah.  I was following some of the spoiler sites during film production.
They just wanted cool looking uniforms.  The costume designed said
something along the lines of "If you want cool looking uniforms, you 
just have to borrow designs from the Third Reich."  

Hey, it worked for the Massachusetts State Police. :-)


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:15:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

At 11:05 PM 4/27/99 PST, you wrote:
>This idea resulted from comments about odd measurements ("hands") and
>the large number of ads for a made for TV movie...
>
>A large vessel is found orbiting an Earthlike world. It's constructed
>of an odd organic material. There is evidence that it contained a
>*large number of animals of a *wide* variety of species. There's no
>apparent drive. Life support is *very* primitive.

Evil.

I'm working on a GURPS Space setting where we discover that there was an
inteligent race of dinosaurs who sent out sublight colonization missions 65
million years ago.  Most of the nearby stars have been seeded with Earthlife.

My working file is named noah.txt
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:03:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

At 06:19 PM 4/27/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Ob Trav: What _will_ troops do to kill week in Jump? Especially Ground
>Pounders with limited capability to train?

Well, the deck can never be shiny enough for the First Sergeant...

In reality, play cards, listen to tunes, and maintain equipment.  I imagine
that the NCOs will plan a level of activity to keep troops from going stir
crazy.
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:00:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia 

At 04:37 PM 4/27/99 -0400, you wrote:

>> hehehehe..  Try having a few hundred hours of Grateful Dead tapes and the
>> complete set of Rip-Off Press comic books, including the Fabulous Furry
>> Freak Brothers Go Abroad!, in your barracks room.
>
>That'd work.  Be a real bitch, tho, to pack 'em up for bivouac.

Naw, for the field, I'd just take a book.  Always.  It became legendary
that no matter where we were, I'd have a book somewhere on my person.

The Dr. Who paperbacks fit nicely in the cargo pocket on my BDUs.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:16:40 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: You give Hollyweird too much credit

In a message dated 4/28/99 8:08:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
eclipse@ultranet.com writes:

<< Nah.  I was following some of the spoiler sites during film production.
 They just wanted cool looking uniforms.  The costume designed said
 something along the lines of "If you want cool looking uniforms, you 
 just have to borrow designs from the Third Reich."  
 
 Hey, it worked for the Massachusetts State Police. :-) >>

As an aside; the NYCPD used to have these REALLY cool leather duty jackets. 
They switched to nylon (?) after numerous complaints that they looked like 
nazi's...The Mounted and Highway cops still have the high boots, jodpers, and 
thigh length leather jackets, so they still look cool (and intimidating...). 
I still can't figure out why they changed shirt colors though (from sky blue 
to the same dark blue as their pants and jackets). Maybe tradition; as that's 
what color they used in the 60's...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:17:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

At 09:56 PM 4/27/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Ok, just a question: What's wrong with the T4 Starships book?  (I don't
>have it, and have only glanced through it briefly.  My impression was that
>other than the art it was ok...)  

Other than the horrid art, the designs themselves are badly broken.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:29:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Stump <rick_stump@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

> Take a look at the following book
> The Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy in
> Eight Easy Steps by
> Marshall T. Savage 
> Here's an Amazon link: 
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316771635/eclipsswebwarren/002-72260
> 92-9981402
> 
> He describes a rail gun built into the side of a
> mountain near the equator.
>  The top of the mountain has lasers mounted.  You
> fling the capsule up via
> the rail gun, then lase the chunk of ice on the
> bottom of the craft.
> Tosses the craft into orbit rather nicely.
> 
> This a good gearhead book.
 I (and my family) am a member of the Millenial Project (although they
just changed their name) which is trying to proceed with the book's
plans. IMTU I have a few TL7-8 worlds with 'Bifrost' launchers like
that. Once grav effects appear, though, it can no longer compete.
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:42:21 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

Steve Daniels writes:
"If you have a character that rolls only 7s (3s and 4s),
if he joins the Army, after 3 terms, he will have 9 skills.
If he joins any other career (including Navy and Marines
which can only be reached via the Draft), he gets 
substantially less skills per term."

	I had noticed this, but bear in mind that not all
	skills are created equal. Most ex-army are just
	passengers on a starship, while ex-marines may have
	some shipboard skills. Ex-navy/scouts/merchants can
	at least point a shotgun at bad guys when dirtside.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:37:13 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Travellernomics

At 07:12 28.04.99 -0400, you wrote:
>You won't be impressed by the meager, to put it politley, trade rules in
>G:T.  What you want is GT:Far Trader.
BTW:
How is this book? I havent seen it yet and am thinking of ordering it. 
Same goes for Star Mercs, too.
So if anyone could (Re-)Post a short evaluation, id appreciate it.
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:52:22 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Patches

At 10:19 26.04.99 +1000, you wrote:

>>How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?
I, for one would certaily want buy them, _if_ they are well made (and my
wallet permits it).
>>What would you be willing to pay?
$ 5-8 
>>What types of patches would you like to see us do?
Oh, any kind: Eyepatches with the Flaming Eye symbol, err.... wrong kind of
patch ;)

- -Id love to see the imperial sunburst  in Red or yellow on black, 
but any other color combo will probably still be all right.

- -A unit patch, like for a certain squadron of Marines or Army/Navy units.
- -Id also like megacorp designs (a Tukera uniform pach would be nice).
- -Finally, a free trader Beowulf patch (not the distress call, rather a crew
patch)


>>In another matter, the Traveller T-shirts are in the warehouse, and I got
>>mine Tuesday. They look great!
Any chance of seeing pictures on the website? 

>But if it comes about, pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaase make distributors outside the US
>aware of their existence... 
I second that. Traveller stuff, even G:T is still hard to come by in Germany.

Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:10:24 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: melee weapons

>You really, really don't want a skilled Escrimador coming
>after with a knife.  Your arms will be cut to the bone
>multiple times before you blink twice. You're down on the
>ground in shock real soon after that.


The important word here is "skilled." It does not take as much skill to be
deadly with a firearm as it does to be deadly with a knife, however.

This is *not* to say that it doesn't take skill to be a good shooter. It
takes a lot of skill to be a good shooter.

What I am saying is that it is easier for an unskilled shooter to kill a
target than an unskilled knife fighter.

This is often reflected in roleplaying games. In melee combat, an attacker
usually gets only *one* attack during a round, sometimes more if the round
is particularly long (more than a few seconds) and/or the attacker is
considered to be highly skilled.

In fire combat, even an unskilled attacker usually gets several attacks in
a round, especially if the weapon is a semi- or full automatic. Add in the
fact that 1) you can attack at range and 2) most firearms are given damage
ratings equal to or higher than melee weapons, and it can be seen that
firearms are, for the most part, more deadly than melee weapons. Only in
cinematic games do you see people running around with swords in a world
with modern firearms and surviving for very long.

There *is* a reason firearms are the weapon of choice in the modern world.

This is all in my own only very slightly informed opinion (IMOOVSIO), of
course (my experience is limited to range shooting and kali practice).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Stump <rick_stump@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

- --- "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
> At 06:19 PM 4/27/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Ob Trav: What _will_ troops do to kill week in
> Jump? Especially Ground
> >Pounders with limited capability to train?
> 
> Well, the deck can never be shiny enough for the
> First Sergeant...
> 
> In reality, play cards, listen to tunes, and
> maintain equipment.  I imagine
> that the NCOs will plan a level of activity to keep
> troops from going stir
> crazy.
> --
When I was in the Army, we did an exercise where we deployed to a troop
ship; battalion of mechanized infantry with a platoon of airborne
intelligence troops (my team). We spent about 4 days in the Atlantic in
mild storms. There was weapon maint., some vehicle maint., review of
rules of engagement, guard duty on the vehicles, etc., etc., etc. We
spent a lot of time playing cards and reading. A *lot* of time.
 I think a troop ship in jumpspace would be a pretty boring place to be....
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:20:11 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: OT: geocities

On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:10:02 -0500 "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
writes:
>ObTrav:  IYTU, how pervasive is mega-corp advertising?
>         0 = Star Trek, 
>         7 = Blade Runner, 
>         F = Frederik Pohl's The Space Merchants 
>--
>TAZ


IMTU, which is true canon ( or true heresy, depending on your POV) (ie.
no Imperium, completely unique place, CT) 8^)  you cant get away from
Diasporan Systems adverts.  Heck, they make stuff used by almost everyone
every day.  From big stellar ore haulers, with DSI painted on the sides,
to ground vehicles, to home products.  Even one of their subsidiaries,
Gottlos Ordnance Division, provides many of the ground forces of the Gale
Confederation weapons.  Thus the Confederation Marines unofficial motto,
In GOD we trust!

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:10:45 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

In a message dated 4/28/99 8:25:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< I'm working on a GURPS Space setting where we discover that there was an
 inteligent race of dinosaurs who sent out sublight colonization missions 65
 million years ago.  Most of the nearby stars have been seeded with Earthlife.
 
 My working file is named noah.txt >>

Let me guess; the one designated to colonize Earth failed its' re-entry 
roll...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:16:46 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Re: Patches

At 9:52 AM -0600 4/28/99, Volker Greimann wrote:
>
>>>In another matter, the Traveller T-shirts are in the warehouse, and I got
>>>mine Tuesday. They look great!
>Any chance of seeing pictures on the website?

The design can be seen in the Daily Illuminator for 25 March:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/1999/ill-mar99.html

You have to page down a bit to get to it.

>>But if it comes about, pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaase make distributors outside the US
>>aware of their existence...
>I second that. Traveller stuff, even G:T is still hard to come by in Germany.

I'll do what I can.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:10:00 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.CyberCity.dk>
Subject: Re: Subsectors names for the Corridor sector

Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:26:12 -0700 Keith Johnson <kejohnson@2xtreme.net> wrote:

> This is what I have found: 
> 
> Corridor Sector by Subsectors 
> A - Khouth 
> B - Khukish 
> C - Lemish 
> D - The Narrows 
> E - Ian 
> F - Strand 
> G - Naadi 
> H - Uanti 

TD #18: Uantil

> I - Shush 
> J - ??? 

TD #18: The Empty Void

> K - ??? 

TD #18: Atu'l

> L - Kivu 
> M - Two Worlds 
> N - Ashishinipar 
> O - Sinta 
> P - Sashrakusha 

> Do the Subsectors have different names between differant eras? Did the 3rd
> Imperium establish Subsector names, or has they been inherited from the 1st
> Imperium or Rule of Man? 

There are some indications in Vilani & Vargr that sectors and subsectors originally were a Vilani invention (e.g. on p. 11 in that book, some borders between the Bureaux follow current sector borders).

Some sectors have other names in Vilani (e.g. Core is called Ukan), but we can't say for certain how old those names are - I would guess, though, that they originate with the Ziru Sirka.

There is at least one canon reference that subsectors change names: In TD #15, p. 31 we are told that Kerr subsector in Massilia was once called Ershur.

> Heck, anyone have a clue how why the Zhodani, Aslan, K'Kree or Hivers are
> using the Sector/Subsector model?

As a previous poster wrote, the other races probably do their astrography differently, but at least we must admit that sectors in alien realms have alien names (the sectors in Zhodani space have Zhodani names, etc.).

We know from AM4: Zhodani p. 10 that the Zhodani organize their space in something called "preqlianz", which is translated to provinces. There are subdivisions of these that seem to be very much like sectors and subsectors.

Taking into account that the Vilani system (if we accept that) of sectors and subsectors is not very logical (but it fits nicely on a page), one would suspect that other races are using other systems (personally, I would divide my maps into sqaures, or, if space was 3-dimensional, into cubes - but we all know that space is 2-dimensional). The Vilani patent of sectors and subsectors must have been pretty broad to stop someone from coming up with something better - but, hey, it worked, so why change it?

So the Third Imperium is stuck with a legacy from the Ziru Sirka, while I would suspect that most other races use squares, hexes or triangles (the Droyne seems to be pretty fond of hexes and the Zhos of triangles, if their jump grid patterns are anything to go by).

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #519
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 520



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
Re: Background hook: New starport
Re: You give Hollyweird too much credit
Re: OT: geocities
Re: Space Station
Re: Hazing Rituals
Re: melee weapons
Re: GT Maintenace and crew size
Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements (a little long)
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: melee weapons
Re: OT: geocities
Re: Silly adventure idea
Re: OT: geocities
Starship Troopers
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
hazing (was Re: Flashes)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:15:10 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

In a message dated 4/28/99 8:25:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< Other than the horrid art, the designs themselves are badly broken. >>

Must be a tradition; MT's Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium was also a 
collection of broken designs...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:07:49 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:53:20 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
writes:
>
>Take a look at the following book
>The Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy in Eight Easy Steps by
>Marshall T. Savage 
>Here's an Amazon link: 
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316771635/eclipsswebwarren/002-7
2260
>92-9981402
>
>He describes a rail gun built into the side of a mountain near the 
>equator.
> The top of the mountain has lasers mounted.  You fling the capsule up 
>via
>the rail gun, then lase the chunk of ice on the bottom of the craft.
>Tosses the craft into orbit rather nicely.
>
>This a good gearhead book.
>

Ummm, sorry, this is an interesting, though dreamy book.  Not gearhead. 
The author ignores numerous problems with his concepts, while touting
them as workable.

MNSHO, YMMV

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:35:38 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: You give Hollyweird too much credit

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 11:14 AM
Subject: You give Hollyweird too much credit


>Nah.  I was following some of the spoiler sites during film production.
>They just wanted cool looking uniforms.  The costume designed said
>something along the lines of "If you want cool looking uniforms, you
>just have to borrow designs from the Third Reich."
>
>Hey, it worked for the Massachusetts State Police. :-)


Not entirely true. Verhoeven was asked to make the a film of the book
"Starship Troopers." He absolutely despised the book though. He had grown up
in Nazi-occupied Holland and he saw the book as advocating the kind of
fascism he saw as a child. There was a distinct reason for it, and in this
case it's most likely not a matter of giving Hollywood too much credit.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:38:48 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: OT: geocities

j a c writes:
>
> Even one of their subsidiaries, Gottlos Ordnance Division,
> provides many of the ground forces of the Gale Confederation
> weapons.  Thus the Confederation Marines unofficial motto,
> In GOD we trust!


<g> It's those little details that make role playing
    such an enjoyable pastime.

I tend to name my gun toting extras either Smith and 
Wesson or Heckler and Koch.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:45:58 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Space Station

<< So, you're planning to set up a series of "Gas Stations" along a set
 corridor into this region of space.  My question is, just how efficient is
 a "Jump Tanker"?  It could be a total logistical nightmare trying to set up
 string of fueling stations if you have to go very far.  The cost of your
 fuel for the run will be astronomical, and as a result it will cost a small
 fortune to make the trip just one way.>>

The secret is not to use ships.  Use some kind of low acceleration engine to
hurl some large comets from nearby Ort clouds into the rift. Put
timer-transmitters on them and then wait. In a few years (or decades) there
are your refueling stations.  Remember the Imperium has lasted over a
thousand years. What's a few decades investment to open up a new trade
sector?

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:50:16 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals

> Douglas Glatz wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> Not to throw a damper on the enthuisiasm of the idea, but the ritual you
are
> talking about will cost more than what most of the participants will make
in
> any given enlistment.  So having access to resources like 'fixed'
> battledress and a drop pod, even for an official ceromony, seem to be a
bit
> remote.  The armorer will have to account for these items after all, and
> should anything happen to the 'victim', all hell would break loose.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> I was thinking of this when I wrote it, but didn't really develop the
idea.
> I referred to what they put the recruit in as a "capsule" - it doesn't
have
> to be a full-fledged Drop Pod. It could be the empty shell of one of those
> throwaway decoy pods, or even a large enough garbage can. Get something
> light enough so the Marines can toss it around without needing
Battledress.
>

I hadn't thought of that - and it makes sense too!

> Your ideas need spacesuits/hardsuits, access to the Spinal tube, MMU's,
>  EVA ops...I agree that it needs to be simpler, but I think it needs to be
> even simpler than you were thinking of.

Yes, but they are all things that can be done under the guise of routine
'maintenance' while a ship is in orbit.  While in game terms, maintenance is
not really covered (and from what I've seen of civilian freighters, it may
indeed be restricted to a yearly overhaul), IRL maintenance is ongoing and
constant.  I can see military and paramilitary ships being surrounded by
crew going EVA while inport, not to mention the Zero G manuevers that the
ship's troops and assigned marines would be practicing.

douglas
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:01:17 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: melee weapons

> What I am saying is that it is easier for an unskilled shooter to kill a
> target than an unskilled knife fighter.

Personally, I would prefer to be confronted by someone with a gun 
than with a knife.  The man with the gun knows he can kill you.  He 
knows what he possesses.  The guy with the knife doesn't know it 
and can therefore kill you just as easily with a good swipe, all the 
while thinking he is just wounding you.

But I am not arguing your point.  The man with the gun only has to 
pull the trigger.  But he knows what he is doing when he does so.

First rule of combat (real world) when confronting someone with a 
gun:  Stand very, very still.

First rule of combat (real world) when confronting someone with a 
knife:  Get away anyway you can.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:13:19 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenace and crew size

> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:05:26 -0400
> From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Re: GT Maintenace Crew Requirements
> 
> Sorry to respond to two people in one post, but I'm in a hurry.
>  
> > It would also fit with older Traveller material, where crew were linear
> > with the size of the system. Maybe we could get this made official for
> GT?
> 
> Probably worth a try, when Starships comes up for playtest.  (Is someone
> writing this already?)

<raises hand> Me, although it's going to be a compilation rather than a
solo effort. I'll have a Call for Submissions out in the next day or two.

> > For example, a TL10 spinal mount (p. GT157), which includes a
> > >18983.3 MW power plant slice, would require 76 maintenance crew (about
> 1/20
> > >spaces). The TL12 meson spinal mount would require 19 (~1/80).
> 
> I lost a step in you calculation here; why do TL 10 power plants require
so
> much more maintenance than TL 12 plants?

They don't per se; they require more maintenance *crew*, per the rule on p.
VE75. That rule has a scaling factor which depends on TL. This is
inconsistent with the general maintenance rule on p. VE146, but I may be
comparing unlike things. [If that doesn't answer your question, I'll have
to wait until I get home to quote the relevant passages.]

> We could just use the same guidelines as for maneuver drives of the same
> TL.  That might be a fair rule of thumb, although there's no calculation
to
> back it up.

That is essentially what I suggested, although I went one step further
back, to the underlying cost-based calculation.

> > As well, a single large system (like a spinal weapon) is added as a
> really
> > _big_ module, so you can use the sqrt formula without much problem.
> > 
> > IIRC, you've already calculated that bays are reasonably covered with 2
> > crew, so it's only spinal mounts and screens that we need to calculate.
> 
> That was me.  I think that my calculation probably goes out the door if
you
> drop the square root without using some other divisor to reduce the end
> result, a bay NPAW requires 110 hours per day.  That's bad, very bad. 
The
> fact that it isn't in constant use helps a lot, but I don't know how to
> figure out how much.  What's the duty cycle for a ship's weapon systems
(1
> percent? 10 percent?)

The duty cycle arguement is a good one, and the Gunner templates in GT all
have Armoury skill.

> So will total crew size for large ships.  I just realized that my armored
> cruiser design only needs about 760 maintenance man hours a day..  With a
> crew of over 460, that works out to about 2 hours each, even if you
> discount the officers entirely.  

You also have to leave out medics, support personnel, etc., who aren't
really doing "maintenance", although it sounds like it won't be a problem.

Another question:

One of my Navy references contains the following:

"Sections are the basic units of the ship's company. Each division is
divided into three approximately equal sections (first, second, and third)
for liberty, watch standing, condition watches, messing, and berthing. Each
complete section is adequate to maneuver and fight the ship within the
limits of the personnel available. Each section, therefore, includes
adequate ratings, numbers, and qualifications to man all required stations
in emergencies, including getting under way and proceeding out to sea,
surprise hostile action, rescue and assistance, disaster ashore, etc."

Does this mean that the crew requirements in HG (say) are for full
complement, and that the ship can still function at 1/3 that number? Or are
the crew requirements minima, and a well-designed ship should include 3x
that number?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:28:18 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Maintenance Crew Requirements (a little long)

At 11:24 PM 4/27/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Question on maintenance requirements. What about maintenance robots.  Highly
>intelligent robots, approaching human intelligence, has always been against
>canon, (or at least un-Imperium). But most maintenance tasks are real grunt
>work tasks. Wipe down the engine, check the oil level, polish the meson
>cannon.  Couldn't a multifunction maintenance robot do these tasks under the
>control of the ship's computer? Do robot/hours equate to man/hours for
>maintenance? Then that S scout with one crew member could do 2 hours
>maintenance and the robot could do the other 22.
>
>

Well, my .02cr worth.

To get a certificate in FT you need a 12+ skill.  If a certified person has
to do the maintainence then a 12+ skill robotic system should be able to do
the work but for paperworks sake and responcibility someone would need to
'sign off' on the work.  On a scout you could have a general purpose robot
or two for the scutt work and let the captain or engineer do the sign off.
If they do not check the work it's their but in a sling when something goes
wrong.  On the avaerage I'd say it would take 10% of the repair time for
elctronic eqipment to 'check behind' another's repairs and 1% for mechanical
repairs (More grunt work like heavy lifting to make the repair)  This would
give the over sight person a basic skill role to deturmine if the repair was
sucessful and safe with failure meaning either that more checks mush be run
of a mistake is made either the tester thought something was wrong when it
wasn't or was that the device was in working order but it was not.

A crit. success would tell how to make the repair/maintainence
better/safer/faster in the future or give the reviewer a better
understanding or the repair persons nature/skill.

A crit. fail imparts very wrong information.

On the repair role itself a crit. sucess could reduce maintainence of that
system for a period of time or perminately due to fining that 'reoccuring
problem'.  Perhaps a crit. sucess would raise the 'quality' one level for
that system from cheap, to normal, to good, to fine, to very fine, to best
posible.  I would not alow a robotic repair system that was not sentient
this effect as they are 'expert systems' and not capable of original thought
though they could be tought to duplicate a critical sucess on an identical
system by the person who had that insight.

Similerly a crit. fail could permanately lower the 'quality' of a system of
induce a reocurring problem.  A robotic system probably could not cause this
type of crit. fail if it were working in it's area of expertese.  It would
simple 'call an operater' rather that take a risk outside it's perameters.
I could have such a catastraphe if it were use to repair something it was
not designed to repair or perhaps a crit. fail could cause the robot damage.
(A power line shorted to the system case fries the robot because it was
never programed for that contingency.  Let's hope the crew will add that to
it's knowledge base after it is repaired or reset for a minor case.  If not
a 'reoccuring problem' could go through a lot a maintence robots...

Also diferent versions of a 'electroinic maintainence level 12' program will
aproach the problem differently and look for different things.  While unit
MRU-6 with the CRR-191 power plant software my have no problems fixing the
sticky governer valve that alway gives trouble on reentry the new THX-14
unit might halt and call operater because the valve should be replaced not
repaired because the problem will come back and the new unit requires an
operater overide to repair it instead of replace it.  The valve of course is
very expensive to replace...

Repair robot could become very interesing NPC or color back ground...

"Damn that new robot!, Meerrr, never gave us this much greaf over the
!@@#$%^^!@###ing H2 bypass valve.  He just fixed it and went on!  What is
the port athority going to say about all these maintainence overrides in the
log!"

Also a robot doing such work should be able to fill hazard reports just like
a human crewman if it replaces a human crewman just to keep the robot
builder's company out of hot water.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:28:30 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

>ObTrav:A group of Imperial Citizens on a high tech world that are armed with
>recreational weapons have to hold off an invasion force until a relief force
>of Army or Marines arrive. The PC's as ex-military members get drafted into
>leading the resistance.
>

I've run a very similer senerio.  In the end I drove the PCs into a
desperate comando raid attack on the mercenaries to stop the carnage.  Their
very highly motivated civilians were dieing in droves and were perfectly
happy using suicide tactics.  I got one of the PC REALLY POed (fatherly
marine type, the player was real US army) when the group's long term
'mascot' (a 12 year old girl) got 'paitiotic fever' and took out an enemy
baracks with a satchel charge pretenting to be a local 'joy girl'.  She died
in the process of course.  Nothing the PC could do would stop the locals.
They had right on their side and a fanatical relious leader egging them on.
The PC could train the civys and watch them die in safety or risk it all.
They attacked the Merc's grounded ship with a human wave attack as a
distraction to get the PC's ship's engineer into the merc's ship.  He fired
the jump drives on the planet's surface.

For dramatic purposes I said that if he did it the right way he could cause
a power system overload that would blow up the ship (not nuclear explosion,
basicly the jump attemp tore the ship apart and threw the pieces outward).
The blast distroyed the merc base and most of their high tech. arsonal.  The
locals won soon after.

Somehow the relious leader came to a bad end during that last battle...

3 out of 5 PC died in the process.  The player replaced thier characters
with locals.  Made for some very interesting charater back grounds.

I have to admit that game was one of the best I've GMed.  I was 'in the
zone' that night and the PC were really into character.  Most of the players
were new to traveller.  Most were D&Der use to emotionless hack and slash
for fun a treasure.  I got them POed at the Mercs and the local's fanatic
religion and they took it from there.  It's rare to see a group of players
that mad at the NPCs.  Even our group's peace nick 'let's find a non combat
solution' went postal.

I took the idea from the John Wayne movie 'The Green Berrets' and really
played it up.  With the 'little kid' always underfoot and trying desperately
to help the 'heros' and 'saviors of the people'.  I arranged for a long
seccion to finish up the senerio (to keep tention running high).  I open the
seccion with some bad battle news and desperate times for the locals, then
had the 'masscot' overhear the PCs planing and take it on herself to
acomplish the mission they could not figure a way to do without excesive
loses.  That and the 'sermon' the local religious leader who was rich and
would never risk himself gave afterward praising the 'sacrifice' for the
cause, was all the PC could take.

My girlfriend was the 'peace nick' (always is, and she is very good at it).
She figured out that the game was 'that John Wayne army movie' just after
the mascot died.  Boy was she POed at me for blindsiding her but she took up
the part of 'Petter-son' with a vengence.

If you can pull it off you can really get the players emotionally into this
senerio but it probably would not be wise to have prespective new gamers as
observers at the last session.  If the PCs are really into it, they can be a
bit intence and down right scary to those who have not played RPGs before.
You know you 'got them' when they are hovering over the table, dice held
like weapons, and trying to out race each other to do violence to head bad guy.

One thing that may have contributed to the intensity of this particular game
was the the PCs were free traders that had only a bar room brawl or two in
the campain up till they were stranded on this world.  I personally think
that combat in traveller (outside mercinary campains) works best when used
like pepper.  A little dash every now and then so that when they bite into
the chile pepper it really makes an impression!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:31:42 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: melee weapons

>First rule of combat (real world) when confronting someone with a
>gun:  Stand very, very still.

(I take it you mean when being confronted with someone with a gun)

OT but anyhow...
In real world when "when [being] confronted [with] someone with a gun":
Get away anyway you can.

Statistics show that when mugged with a packing mugger they're far more
likely to fire at you AFTER they've mugged you than before. No one knows
what goes on in your average muggers brain but my guess is something like
"If you didn't rob the guy why risking possible police investigation etc
with no cash reward, when the mugging is actually done you either have
something (cash...) and need to cover up a more serious crime or if the
victim had less cash than expected vent your frustration.

Also about statistics; Must gungeek morons use the argument that disarming
the citizens will only take away guns from noncriminals - not the
criminals. True - but if being robbed and the victim tries to defend
himself it is more likely that he/she will shoot himself/herself or get
shot by their own gun than being shot by the robbers gun. I'd be more
afraid of the average gunpacking american than of your average criminal as
I'd probably encounter one of those NRA morons a thousand times more often
than an actual criminal.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:30:32 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: OT: geocities

Todd A. Zircher wrote:
> 
> j a c writes:
> >
> > Even one of their subsidiaries, Gottlos Ordnance Division,
> > provides many of the ground forces of the Gale Confederation
> > weapons.  Thus the Confederation Marines unofficial motto,
> > In GOD we trust!
> 
> <g> It's those little details that make role playing
>     such an enjoyable pastime.
> 
> I tend to name my gun toting extras either Smith and
> Wesson or Heckler and Koch.

I prefer Martini and Henry, myself.

Or, for a high-ranking officer, General Norman Schwantzkopf.

> --
> TAZ

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:36:55 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

>> I'm working on a GURPS Space setting where we discover that there was an
>> inteligent race of dinosaurs who sent out sublight colonization missions 65
>> million years ago.  Most of the nearby stars have been seeded with
>>Earthlife.

>Let me guess; the one designated to colonize Earth failed its' re-entry
>roll...


Naahh, they *started* from earth. Then a big near-c, Virus-infested rock
came along and smeared all those intelligent, tool-wielding 'raptors.
Good-bye, Jurassic Park ...

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:45:22 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: OT: geocities

At 12:30 28.04.99 -0500, you wrote:

>
>Or, for a high-ranking officer, General Norman Schwantzkopf.
Which of course means, when translated back from German:
General Norman Dickhead
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Starship Troopers

On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:

> Not entirely true. Verhoeven was asked to make the a film of the book
> "Starship Troopers." He absolutely despised the book though.

Now *there's* the guy you want to make the film of a book!

Nice call on Hollywood's part.

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:18:36 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

> From: TravelrTNE@aol.com

> ob Trav.  Odds are such traditions are maintained and practiced by Solomani
> units, but what about the Vilani?  Doesn't seem to go w/ my conception of 
> them, though they still practice jump dimming, etc.  It's more than possible. 
>  Anyone have any ideas on Vilani "hazing?"  

You mean before the Terrans kicked their butts in -2408 to -2219?  I'll
leave that to other historians on the list.

I don't know what happened during the Rule of Man, but the Third
Imperium's naval and military forces are as integrated as practicable
(especially after the Civil War and even more so after Emperor
Zhakirov's reign).  Aslan marines and soldiers, e.g.,  serve in their
own units because they have differently shaped hands and need
differently built weapons and other equipment from humans.  Other
Imperial races might also serve in their own units.  (The logistics of
equipping and feeding an Alien Legion -- that is, one composed of many
different species -- would be challenging, to say the least.)  

There is no objective reason (other than time-keeping; the Vilani don't
usually use a 24-hour clock) to separate Solomani and Vilani personnel,
so they are integrated into the same units, along with such other minor
human races as can use the same equipment as "standard" humans (Solomani
and Vilani being the standard as they are about the same size on average
and certainly constitute the majority of humans in the Imperium).  Vargr
may or may not be integrated into human units.  They can use much human
gear without penalty, but need vacc suits and battle dress designed for
their digitigrade legs (and don't forget their tails -- and don't let me
digress into personal stories about jerry-rigging tail protection on
human vacc suits) and long snouts.  

What does this mean for hazing in the forces of the Third Imperium?  I
would expect human units to engage in hazing that represents a blend of
the Solomani and Vilani traditions.  Any Vargr in the unit would just
have to deal with the culture clash -- that's part of being a member of
a cosmopolitan force.  Aslan would have their own hazing rituals, which
I would expect to be pretty severe and potentially dangerous.  Vargr
units would have rougher hazing, too.  

The official policy of the Imperium would be to condone hazing as long
as readiness is not affected.  Hazing is seen as boosting morale and
improving unit cohesion, as long as it is balanced against actually
injuring personnel.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:22:42 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>

> > Or, for a twist, they can be hired by the rebels as training or
> > stiffening cadre, or as a special operations unit (sort of like The
> > Magnificent Seven, which I've always wanted to translate into a
> > Traveller adventure).
> 
> A lotta plots from some of the more popular Hollywierd flicks would make
> good adventures.

Actually, I was thinking of Akira Kurosawa's 1954 samurai movie, not the
1960 western, but you're right about Hollywood providing some playable
ideas.

(Hmm... Chushingura, a movie that retells the story of the 47 ronin,
would also make an interesting campaign ....)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:31:38 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

> From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
 
> Ah, but most people _need_ cars, whereas people usually do not _need_ guns!
> Why allow potentially dangerous item possession to those who do not really 
> need it? That just opens the door for trouble!

Why do "most people _need_ cars"?  Most people's transportation needs
could be served at present technological levels with publicly owned
light rail, busses, ferries, and helicopters, and privately owned
bicycles.  People want cars for a variety of good reasons --
convenience, independence, spontaneity -- but that doesn't rise to
"need".  

Ob Traveller:  It's a mark of good role-playing and immersion in the
milieu for players to ask when they arrive on a world, "what
transportation is available?" rather than, "we want to buy an
air/raft."  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:38:21 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: hazing (was Re: Flashes)

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Flashes

> I've got it. Tradition says that for your first shore leave after
> qualifying, you have to land using a personal re-entry kit. No fair

It's a great idea, but the cost of a personal re-entry kit indicates
that if you're caught you're heading for the stockade.  Also, hazing has
to apply to lots of people -- all the FNGs have to be hazed, so you
might have 50 people trying this stunt at once.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #520
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 521



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

teen rebellion (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)
Re: CT character gen programs
cars and guns (not up to cigarettes and hookers, yet)
Re: Background hook: New starport
Re: melee weapons
Re: Gun Control.
re: Surface-Based Black Globes
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: geocities more OT
re: Surface-Based Black Globes
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: CT character gen programs
re: CT character gen programs
Re: Surface based Black Globes
re:Cultures, Gun control and so on...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
Re: CT character gen programs 
Re: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics) 
Re: Fuel Stations 
Re: Travellernomics 
Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:44:48 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: teen rebellion (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

> I can see their friends wearing the Ine Givar stuff not caring, and an
> impromtu game of football or the like getting reported as a "riot
> between Ine Givar and Imperial supporters at a local high school".

Student #1 (wearing Ine Givar tshirt and asymmetrical designer jeans): 
"No, sir, I'm not supporting anti-government terrorism.  Ine Givar is
just the name of our band."

Student #2 (wearing Imperial Marine camouflage utility pants and
Jesedipere Diplomatic High School tshirt):  "Yeah, I mean yes, sir, and
I'm the theremin player."

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:48:47 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

> Yesterday, I was experimenting with CT chargen.  Something I haven't done
> in a long time.  Discovered something interesting.  The Chargen rules in
> Book 1 are heavily skewed towards the Army.

> I actually went to the trouble of doing the same thing for
> Mercenary and High Guard Chargen.  Dramatically better.
> Only with these systems can you approach the 1.25 skills/year
> average that Marc M. built into T4 and T5beta (although,
> certain special schools generate lots of skills - the overall
> average of all special schools was 1.8 skills per school).
> 
> If anyone is interested, I could post the results.

I think that this has been done long ago.  It's in an article in Journal
of the Travellers' Aid Society.  I don't recall if they did Books 4 and
5, or only Book 1.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:57:24 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: cars and guns (not up to cigarettes and hookers, yet)

> From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
 
> Cars have a purpose other than killing: getting from point A to point B.
> What purpose does a gun have other than to kill or inflict severe injury?

Guns have many of the same purposes as cars: intimidation (try crossing
the street in San Francisco's -- or Boston's -- financial district some
time), status/lifestyle display ("ooh, is that the new Glock/BMW?"),
giving a sense of security (the doors are locked and the stereo is on --
life is good), etc.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:58:49 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
> Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport
 
> Take a look at the following book
> The Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy in Eight Easy Steps by
> Marshall T. Savage 

I have to check this out.  I went to college with a Marshall Savage, and
this is just the kind of thing he'd write.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:16:03 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: melee weapons

In a message dated 4/28/99 10:33:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
anders.backman@aniware.se writes:

<<  Must gungeek morons  >>

Anders; you're doing a Cliff...Please refrain from the names. I disagree with 
your position, but I am hardly a "gun geek moron"... Also; let's go to the 
private E mail with this thread, hmm...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:26:04 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Gun Control.

>
>Cars have a purpose other than killing: getting from point A to point B.
>What purpose does a gun have other than to kill or inflict severe injury?
>
>

I'll answer that one.  I did not endend to post to this tread but the above
is just to much wrong head retoric.

A gun it's an equalizer.

It let's a 100 pound woman NOT be raped by a 200+ pound man.

or the cippled, sick, week, small, old

It let's a lone person defend his person or home or business again a gang of
criminals.

It is the object that makes wrong behavior have a real consiquence.  As long
as individual people have guns then no tyrant can be truely safe whether
that tyrant is a king or a wife beating husband.  There is always a way for
those that have been done wrong by that tyrant to make him pay the untimate
price even though it might be necessary for him to pay that price also.  As
long as this is true then those that rule will be limited by their own self
interest in the degree of atrocities they can inflict of those they rule.

All most all other weapons require strength, size, long hours of training,
or some other dificult to obtain precondition to use against a strong
dangerious oponnet.  

God made man, Sam Colt made them equal.

Only those that want to impose their will on others need to fear guns.  All
others fear those that want to impose their will on them.

That is why our founding fathers thought it had to be a protected right.
The posession of the means to protect ourselves against tyrrany is the
peoples veto power.  The last line of defense for the freedom our precessers
fought and died for.

"A person that trades some of his freedom for a little temporary safety,
deserves neither" B. Franklin.

No one is ever safe.  There is no time or place that death can not find you
but if the death that is coming your way is wearing a ski mask a gun CAN
save you.

Ask yourself this, if the teachers in that school all had guns (conceled
carry) and the will to use them how far would those two kid have gotten?  At
the very least they would have had a CHANCE to protect themselves and their
charges.  As it was they were cattle in a pin for the slauder.  They had no
chance...and that is what happens sooner or latter anywhere people a not
allowed the means to protect themselves.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:26:15 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Surface-Based Black Globes

At 10:27 AM 4/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>David Smart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>IMO, this is the *worst* tactic any world could
>attempt. Such a world is invulnerable to *all*
>effects, including _normal_solar_heat_. 
>
>Anybody care to figure how long it takes an
>Earth-like atmosphere to begin cooling without
>*any* solar energy being received by the planet?
>The thermal effects, I believe, are as if the planet
>was instantly dropped into intergalactic space,
>thermally speaking.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>That's OK. When the capacitators blow, it should heat the
>planet back up again nicely. ;-)
>


Also as long as the globe is up you are protected from all forces including
gravity.  A planet would leave it's orbit!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:24:11 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

Chris Griffen wrote:
> TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> > You'd have preferred if they hacked up a dozen schoolmates w/
> > knives or hatchets?  If i wanted to kill a dozen people,
> > especially in a school, I *could* do so pretty effectively w/
> > just a good combat knife and the sick intentions to do so
> > (which I thankfully lack).  Odds are I could chase down as
> > many more, too, especially fat bodies or poor runners.  
>
> I've been avoiding this thread, too, as it is not germaine to
> Traveller, so I'll be brief. The reason I even respond to this
> comment is that I hear this argument all too often from gun
> proponents on this list. 
> 
> Here goes: If you (and I mean that in the generic sense; not
> just you, Gary) really believe that two students with machetes
> and knives could have done the damage that those two did in
> Littleton, you are too deluded to own a firearm yourself. I
> won't even get into how ridiculous it is to compare knives with
> firearms other than to say this assertion is just plain stupid.
> If you must come up with an argument to justify your ownership
> and love of firearms, find a better one than this. Let's get
> serious, folks.

Saddly, at the end of 1997 in  Myanmar  (formerly  Burma)  a  man
entered a school and killed 10 children and 2 adults.  He used  a
machete, and was alone.  Although this runs contrary to what  you
or I might expect, this demonstrates  that  the  2  in  Littleton
could have theoretically killed 20 kids and 4 adults without  the
use of firearms!  (And this is before we  consider  nasty  little
devices  made  from  gasoline  and  washing-up  liquid.)  Banning
firearms does not solve the underlying problem ... and thus  does
not prevent future occurances of tradgedies like these.

Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Stump <rick_stump@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: geocities more OT

I remember taking studying in the German building of the Defense
Language Institute with my classmates - Ron Schwantz and and Chuck
Schwalbe. Every chance I'd get, I'd yell,
 "Schwalbe, Schwantz!"
 And watch the German teachers snap their heads around to look
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:13:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: re: Surface-Based Black Globes

On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Charles Prevatte wrote:

> Also as long as the globe is up you are protected from all forces including
> gravity.  A planet would leave it's orbit!

Try this:

A black-globe equipped vessel misjumps and is precipitated out of
jumpspace near a black hole. The vessel cannot escape the gravitational
pull of the object, and so instead rides the accelleration curve around
it, spiralling in, faster and faster, until at the last moment (when the
gravitational force becomes too great) they crank up the black globe and
go zipping off in a straight line away from the black hole! When they
figure they have moved far enough away, they drop the globe.

This would be a cool way for a research vessel to get close to a black
hole and then escape, too.

Also, if the volume within a black hole is immune to gravity, is it also
immune to time dilation from travelling near light speed?

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:18:32 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/28/99 11:37:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk writes:

<< Saddly, at the end of 1997 in  Myanmar  (formerly  Burma)  a  man
 entered a school and killed 10 children and 2 adults.  He used  a
 machete, and was alone.  >>

Notice the lack of media attention...
 (my opinion: because they weren't Caucasion, European or American, and 
didn't use a gun...)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:33:18 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

Ian Ferguson wrote:

> Steve Daniels writes:
> "If you have a character that rolls only 7s (3s and 4s),
> if he joins the Army, after 3 terms, he will have 9 skills.
> If he joins any other career (including Navy and Marines
> which can only be reached via the Draft), he gets
> substantially less skills per term."
>
>         I had noticed this, but bear in mind that not all
>         skills are created equal. Most ex-army are just
>         passengers on a starship, while ex-marines may have
>         some shipboard skills. Ex-navy/scouts/merchants can
>         at least point a shotgun at bad guys when dirtside.
>
> Peez

Well, in the abstract you have a good point.
But, WRT Army, (sticking with the rolling only
3s and 4s metaphor - admittedly not scientific),
I'll take the results, even rolling on all available
skill tables (for EDU 7), doubling up on Advanced
Education Table:

Rifle  (Army enlistment)
+1 Endur (first term)
Gambling (first term)
Fwd. Obs. (commission)
SMG (Army Lieutenant)
Blade CBT (promotion)
Electronics (second term)
Tactics (promotion)
Electronics (third term)
Tactics (promotion)

Final result (after 5 muster rolls):
UPP  778797
Army Major
Electronics-2, Tactics-1, Rifle-1, SMG-1, Blade CBT-1,
Fwd. Obs.-1, Gambling-1
Gun
Cr20,000
(+2 Edu)
- ---------
Same guy as Marine (via draft)
Cutlass (Marine enlistment)
+1 Endur (first term)
Blade CBT or Gambling (first term)
Electronics (second term)
Tactics (third term)

UPP  778787
Marine enlistee
Cutlass-2 (or) Cutlass-1 & Gambling-1, Electronics-1, Tactics-1

Blade
Cr15,000 (or Cr30,000 if Gambling instead of Blade CBT)
(+1 Edu)
- ----------

Not hard to see the imbalance there.  FWIW, the only difference
in skill accessibility between the Marines and the Army is:
Vacc Suit (Marines) and Air/Raft, and +1 Edu (Army).

The way I've formulated it, with rolls of 3s and 4s only (7s for 2D),
the Army character is superior for shipboard activity in almost
all respects.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:42:47 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: CT character gen programs

Steve Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not hard to see the imbalance there.  FWIW, the only difference
in skill accessibility between the Marines and the Army is:
Vacc Suit (Marines) and Air/Raft, and +1 Edu (Army).

The way I've formulated it, with rolls of 3s and 4s only (7s for 2D),
the Army character is superior for shipboard activity in almost
all respects.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Interesting work.

As you pointed out earlier, an all-average person will seldom become
a Marine. I'm sure the jarheads on the list will like that part of it. <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:25:38 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Surface based Black Globes

Anders Backman wrote:
>
> >Anybody care to figure how long it takes an
> >Earth-like atmosphere to begin cooling without
> >*any* solar energy being received by the planet?
> >The thermal effects, I believe, are as if the planet
> >was instantly dropped into intergalactic space,
> >thermally speaking.
> 
> Canon black globes don't radiate heat either so the 
> temperature would be as
> it was the black globe turn-on: in equilibrium.

Incorrect; the BG absorbs all energy being radiated from 
the planet, so the planet will continually lose heat as
it radiates IR. If the BG were instead a perfect mirror,
then the planet would stay warm a while. 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:30:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Cultures, Gun control and so on...

 "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:

>You see what I mean?  My American humor was completely lost on the
>British reader.  Just two hundred or so years go by, and we really have
>become one people divided by a common language.

;-)

>In all seriousness, please accept my apology for any offense.  It was
>not my intention.

None taken.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:37:19 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:

>> Or, for a twist, they can be hired by the rebels as training or
>> stiffening cadre, or as a special operations unit (sort of like The
>> Magnificent Seven, which I've always wanted to translate into a
>> Traveller adventure).

Check out the M0 BITS adventure '(The Magnificent) Space Dogs' when it gets
published later this year.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:16:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
>Ok, just a question: What's wrong with the T4 Starships book?  (I don't
>have it, and have only glanced through it briefly.  My impression was that
>other than the art it was ok...)
>
>Not trying to start a war, just honestly curious...

Designs are broken under SSDS and QSDS. Art is lousy (CT had better). SSDS
needs errata to work properly, and the colour plates in the middle of the
design sequence are really badly placed.

In its defense - it makes a good emergency mousemat.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:23:50 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs 

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> 
> > > Does anybody know the Url for any Character generation programs for CT?
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/8037/travcgen.zip
> >
> 
> Yesterday, I was experimenting with CT chargen.  Something I haven't done
> in a long time.  Discovered something interesting.  The Chargen rules in
> Book 1 are heavily skewed towards the Army.

These Book 1 characters, or expanded characters?

Keven
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:29:46 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics) 

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> A 5KT station is at *least* 500 MCr just for the *hull*.  Per HG, if it's a 
> sphere, the hull price goes down to 350MCr.  
> 
> <snip thorough and accurate accounting of construction costs>
> 
> You're already up to almost 750 MCr and you haven't even 
> added life support costs.  These are *throwaway* stations?????????  We're 
> looking at a budget of about a *billion*, something a *government* would 
> have problems justifying, let alone protecting.  
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> What if the fueling station is a small module, say 400dtns, floating on
> station with some big cheap fuel tanks?

IMTU, those big cheap fuel tanks wouldn't last for decades.  They're 
throwaways if you go by the rules, not braced to hold pressure for more than a 
day or two.
 
> The computer minimums (in HG) are an abstraction for military sensor
> arrays IMO - a fueling station might want military-grade sensors if
> it's supposed to double as an observation station, but they should be
> optional - and certainly shouldn't be priced based on the displacement
> of the fuel tanks.

Bill *also* mentioned 50 hardpoints stuffed with triple laser turrets.  That 
would mean at *LEAST* a Power Plant-1 to cover them.  And a 5Kt hull means you 
*NEED* that Mod 8 to control it.
 
> Should a fuel station's power plant need to be big enough to provide
> Power-1 to the fuel tanks? How much powered maintenance does LHyd
> need in interstellar space? I don't know the answer to this question.

It wasn't power to the *fuel* under discussion, it was power to the 150 beam 
lasers that was mentioned.  And of course 50 tons dedicated to fire support, 1 
ton for each turret.
 
> I think the computer requirements and bridge requirements for an immobile
> space station should be lower than those for a warship, or even a 
> commercial craft. Still, these things can get expensive.

Not by HG rules.  The station qualifies as a non-starship, and is thus covered 
by, and must conform to, the rules.
 
Keven
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:32:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations 

> Stephen (SRKOALA@aol.com) wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> << I think the computer requirements and bridge requirements for an immobile
>  space station should be lower than those for a warship, or even a 
>  commercial craft. Still, these things can get expensive. >>
> 
> As you don't have Mn and some En crew members you don't need as many Cn, 
> there for smaller bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> I was talking High Guard 2nd Ed - I've got to remember to identify the
> design system in my posts. In HG, bridge requirements are based 
> entirely on the displacement of the ship. It's just a feature (bug?) of
> the level of abstraction used.

It's a feture.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:33:23 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Travellernomics 

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> 
> > I didn't care much for the vanilla system started in Merchant Princes &
> > continued on ad nauseum down the line to the present T4.  Haven't seen G:T
> > yet, so I have no clue what they're doing...
> 
> You won't be impressed by the meager, to put it politley, trade rules in
> G:T.  What you want is GT:Far Trader.
> 
> [/shameless plug]

Might have to check that out, if my FLGS ever decides to carry GURPS stuff...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:48:37 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

In a message dated 4/27/99 10:01:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jg42@cornell.edu writes:

<< 
 Ok, just a question: What's wrong with the T4 Starships book?  (I don't
 have it, and have only glanced through it briefly.  My impression was that
 other than the art it was ok...)  
  >>

       My big problems with the Starships book are:
			1) Most of the ships'  stats were already given in 
the main book
			2) A huge chunk of the book was wasted in color 
plates that reproduced the cover art of other books.
			3) There were holes in the Starship design sequence 
that made it unuseable.
			4) Did you see the price for a rescue ball!   It 
would be cheaper to buy a second ship than provide those suckers for your 
passengers and crew.


				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:53:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

At 02:45 AM 4/28/99 +0200, you wrote:
>At 20:06 27.04.99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>This is a very dangerous argument.  At what point do we restrict something
>>as _potentially_ dangerous?  Many more people die in car accidents than
>>ever do from guns, but we don't ban cars.  After all "Sure people want
>>them, but free access is just too dangerous," sounds silly in that context
>>doesn't it?  
>
>Ah, but most people _need_ cars, whereas people usually do not _need_ guns!
>Why allow potentially dangerous item possession to those who do not really 
>need it? That just opens the door for trouble!
>Volker

Need cars?  Why not take a bus?  And if you really do _need_ a car, surely
you can apply to the government for a special permit, after demonstrating
acceptable need.  After all, it's a small price to pay for everyone feeling
safer...  

Many people feel that they _do_ need guns, for self defense, if nothing
else.  Personally, I'd want to (and do) have a firearm at home to defend
myself against an intruder.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #521
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 522



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Terran countries and Alien Races compared
Re: OT: geocities
re: Fuel Stations
Re: Really non-PC behavior was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
Re: melee weapons
Re: Travellernomics
GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
Re: Subject Change Request
Re: Patches
Re: Silly adventure idea
NYPD uniforms
TAKE IT OFF THE LIST
Re: Travellernomics
Re: Original of the term "Lighter"
Re: Fuel Stations
Re: NYPD uniforms (long)
Re: Space Station
re: Surface-Based Black Globes
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
Re: Original of the term "Lighter"
Re: Two questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:58:31 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terran countries and Alien Races compared

In a message dated 4/28/99 5:39:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
volker@greimann.de writes:

<< 
 >>>I'm also more inclined to think of the Zhos as the Persians. Vargr as
 >>>Germans fits though.
 Aha, and how did you see that?
 The Vargr to me seem like the exact opposite of the attributes generally
 attributed to Germans:
 "Law and Order", Punctuality, Order in its normal sense, discipline,
 reserved etc. >>

	I think the original posting was comparing the Vargr to the Germans 
of 400 AD, with the Imperium in the role of the Romans, rather than a modern 
comparison.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:11:30 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: OT: geocities

On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:30:32 -0500 Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:
>Todd A. Zircher wrote:
>> 
>> j a c writes:
>> >
>> > Even one of their subsidiaries, Gottlos Ordnance Division,
>> > provides many of the ground forces of the Gale Confederation
>> > weapons.  Thus the Confederation Marines unofficial motto,
>> > In GOD we trust!
>> 
>> <g> It's those little details that make role playing
>>     such an enjoyable pastime.
>> 
>> I tend to name my gun toting extras either Smith and
>> Wesson or Heckler and Koch.
>
>I prefer Martini and Henry, myself.
>
>Or, for a high-ranking officer, General Norman Schwantzkopf.
>
>> --
>> TAZ


Heh, nice names.  Of course, for those low level Navy flunkies, Ensign
Pulver.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:01:49 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fuel Stations

Keven Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMTU, those big cheap fuel tanks wouldn't last for decades.  They're 
throwaways if you go by the rules, not braced to hold pressure for more than a day or two.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So have the tanker refilling the station drop off new tanks instead of
fill up old ones. The tonnage will (due to the level of abstraction) be
the same. <G>
 
Keven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bill *also* mentioned 50 hardpoints stuffed with triple laser turrets.  That 
would mean at *LEAST* a Power Plant-1 to cover them.  And a 5Kt hull means you *NEED* that Mod 8 to control it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oops, missed his mention of triple laser turrets. I don't think these would
be a good idea on a non-mobile space station myself - you are so killable 
that your only defense against an enemy is to appear helpless and useful.

Of course, this defense only works until the enemy (or your friends) 
decide you're more useful to the other side than you are to them...

Keven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
> I think the computer requirements and bridge requirements for an immobile
> space station should be lower than those for a warship, or even a 
> commercial craft. Still, these things can get expensive.

Not by HG rules.  The station qualifies as a non-starship, and is thus covered by, and must conform to, the rules.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The HG rules are specifically designed to create warships, and have
some abstractions in them. 

I think it's fine to have a 400dtn space station module keeping an eye
on a couple thousand tons of immobile fuel tanks. YMMV.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:05:04 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Really non-PC behavior was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/28/99 11:07:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
eclipse@ultranet.com writes:

<< 
 Just remember the words of Commander Cockroach, "There's plenty more were
 they came from!"
  >>
 So many hippies, so few clubs.

			Dave "Dr Stodgicus" Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:09:09 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514

At 07:56 AM 4/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>>So I agree, that while guns are not "The Problem" (Guns are never bad by
>>>themselves, just the uses to which they are sometimes put), free access is
>>>just to dangerous.
>>
>>This is a very dangerous argument.  At what point do we restrict something
>>as _potentially_ dangerous?  Many more people die in car accidents than
>>ever do from guns, but we don't ban cars.  After all "Sure people want
>>them, but free access is just too dangerous," sounds silly in that context
>>doesn't it?  
>
>Cars have a purpose other than killing: getting from point A to point B.
>What purpose does a gun have other than to kill or inflict severe injury?

You are, of course right, in that the purpose of a gun is to kill.
However, it's proper purpose is to kill in self defense, not in murder.
Just like a car used as a murder weapon is an otherwise legal object being
used in an illegal fashion, so IMHO is a perfectly legitimate gun being
used in an illegal way.  It's that use of the gun that should (and is) be
illegal, not the gun itself.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:19:34 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: melee weapons

At 10:20 AM 4/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/27/99 6:50:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>eclipse@ultranet.com writes:
>
><< Just ask any LEO or serious MA who has done disarm drills with simulated
> weapons 
> (squirt guns & chalk covered practice knives).
>  >>
>
>Yup; we were trained that anyone with a knife under 21 feet (7 meters) was an 
>IMMEDIATE threat as they could run at you in under two seconds. They could 
>stick you before you could draw a sidearm...
When I took Kenpo Karate several years ago, part of the curriculum was
weapon disarms.  It's much, much easier to disarm a gunman than a knife
wielder.  Once I learned the techniques, I could take a gun away from
someone before they pulled the trigger about nine times out of ten.  With a
knife, you almost always get at least some cuts (usually to the forearm).
And this is against a _trained_ victim.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:24:18 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Travellernomics

At 05:37 PM 4/28/99 +0200, you wrote:
>At 07:12 28.04.99 -0400, you wrote:
>>You won't be impressed by the meager, to put it politley, trade rules in
>>G:T.  What you want is GT:Far Trader.
>BTW:
>How is this book? I havent seen it yet and am thinking of ordering it. 
>Same goes for Star Mercs, too.
>So if anyone could (Re-)Post a short evaluation, id appreciate it.

IMHO, Far Trader is the best GT book written so far, and one of the best
GURPS books in general that I've seen.  Definitely worth getting, for any
genre.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:30:38 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions

I have been awarded the contract for GT: Starships, the sourcebook for
starships of all kinds in GURPS Traveller. Since this is to be a joint
collection or compilation rather than a solo effort, I am soliciting
contributions from the GT community. I am responsible for judging
submissions, filling in any blanks, and editing the product into a coherent
draft. 

Briefly, I'm looking for five types of submissions:

	Starship components
	Starship design adaptations
	Original starship designs
	Vignettes and adventure seeds
	Characters

I have posted detailed guidelines for submissions on a web site:

<http://www.io.com/~thrash/starship.html>

Please take a look at them, and if you have any questions by all means ask.
I plan to send an initial draft to SJ Games in September 1999; I would
therefore like to have the bulk of the submissions by 15 July 1999. Release
is currently planned for March 2000.

What do you get in return? Well, besides the immortal fame of your name in
the credits, the adoration of your peers, and my undying gratitude, the top
twenty contributors (determined by me) will receive two complimentary
copies of the finished sourcebook; all other contributors and credited
playtesters will receive one copy.

I look forward to working with you.

Regards,

Christopher B. Thrash
<thrash@io.com>


[Playtesting will not begin until after I submit the initial draft. To be a
playtester, you must either subscribe to Pyramid magazine online
<http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/subscribe/  -- tell 'em "thrash" sent you!>
or live close enough to me that I can torture you with it face-to-face.]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:22:20 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

Oh sure, but a couple of grams of supersonic lead will do it a lot easier
than pointing your fingers at someone and saying 'bang!'

- -----Original Message-----
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 27 April 1999 20:01
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request


>>>Strange - in the UK, when the Dunblane attack happened we *banned*
>>>handguns
[snip]
>And at the same time, violent crime in many parts of the US (Including New
>York City!) is at a record low....   The truth is, there are plenty of ways
>to kill people, if you've decided to kill
[snip]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:23:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Patches

At 11:16 AM 4/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>At 9:52 AM -0600 4/28/99, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>
>>>>In another matter, the Traveller T-shirts are in the warehouse, and I got
>>>>mine Tuesday. They look great!
>>Any chance of seeing pictures on the website?
>
>The design can be seen in the Daily Illuminator for 25 March:
>
>http://www.sjgames.com/ill/1999/ill-mar99.html
>
>You have to page down a bit to get to it.

Got me shirt yesterday, and am proudly wearing it today.

Be advised, these guys are Texans, and everything is bigger in Texas.  I'm
6', 165lbs, and this large shirt is loose on me.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:26:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

At 12:10 PM 4/28/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/28/99 8:25:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>dberry@hooked.net writes:
>
><< I'm working on a GURPS Space setting where we discover that there was an
> inteligent race of dinosaurs who sent out sublight colonization missions 65
> million years ago.  Most of the nearby stars have been seeded with
Earthlife.
> 
> My working file is named noah.txt >>
>
>Let me guess; the one designated to colonize Earth failed its' re-entry 
>roll...

Nope, they were native, but evolved from one of the nastier carnisaurs.
They needed losts of room.  They also excelled in biosciences, and were
able to take thousands of species with them as preserved fertilized ovum.

There's T. Rex on Tau Ceti II!!
>
>
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:42:53 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: NYPD uniforms

On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:16:55 -0400, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>As an aside; the NYCPD used to have these REALLY cool leather duty jackets. 
>They switched to nylon (?) after numerous complaints that they looked like 
>nazi's...The Mounted and Highway cops still have the high boots, jodpers, and 
>thigh length leather jackets, so they still look cool (and intimidating...). 
>I still can't figure out why they changed shirt colors though (from sky blue 
>to the same dark blue as their pants and jackets). Maybe tradition; as that's 
>what color they used in the 60's...

As an employee of that there department you mentioned, I can
answer that question - this was part of Giuliani's makeover; the
cops are supposed to look intimidating, and with the powder blue
shirts, they looked like Mr. Goodwrench or your local janitor,
not a cop that needs to be respected.  Also, food stains don't
show up as well on the dark blue as on the Goodwrench shirts
(although dandruff and jelly-donut powdered sugar are another
issue).

Most of the force went with it; there was a noticeable
improvement in morale and in "keeping spiffy" when the dark blue
came in.  It's even made a difference for the civilian members;
when the uniforms changed over, a lot of civilian MOS started
wearing more formal, businesslike, clothing to work.

ObDisclaimer: The New York City Police Department allows me to
have my own opinions.  Since they do, and I do, I don't post
theirs.  Besides, I pay for this account with my own money.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:26:16 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: TAKE IT OFF THE LIST

Okay first my apologies to all and sundry for this

TAKE THE F***ING GUN CONTROL DEBATE TO EMAIL THIS IS NOT THE
PLACE FOR IT.

Not only is it distruptive and annoying and so far off topic that it ain't funny,
its also rather insulting.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:36:47 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Travellernomics

On 28 Apr, Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:

> A 5KT station is at *least* 500 MCr just for the *hull*.
> Per HG, if it's a sphere, the hull price goes down to 350MCr.

There is a cheaper solution:

a small core base with the fuel in drop tanks. A 5KT drop tank is 5MCr.

Unfortunately, you're not supposed to put 50 laser turrets on it. ;-)

Another benefit is that you only need a crew, bridge and such systems
according to the mass of the core ship. The drop tanks are not included
in the High Guard calculations.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:29:45 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Original of the term "Lighter"

A lighter is a ship which carries a bigger ships cargo to the port the bigger 
ship cant reach [Trav:unstreamlined cargo vessel transfers cargo to a 
lighter-the lighter gets it down to downport]...it makes the bigger one 
lighter...
...At least I think that it is that were it originated ...

Andreas Reimer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:43:56 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations

On 28 Apr, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:
> Keven Pittsinger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> IMTU, those big cheap fuel tanks wouldn't last for decades.  They're 
> throwaways if you go by the rules, not braced to hold pressure for
> more than a day or two.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> So have the tanker refilling the station drop off new tanks instead of
> fill up old ones. The tonnage will (due to the level of abstraction) be
> the same. <G>

Those "disposable tanks" are only disposed of if someone activates
the explosive bolts. It is perfectly possible to perform a successful
jump with one attached.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:44:47 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: NYPD uniforms (long)

Interesting;

I liked the light blue shirts; especially the short sleeved summer uniform. 
It was comfortable, even with a ballistic vest underneath it...

I would have figured the PBA wouldn't have been happy, as all the police 
officers would have to have purchased new shirts. At a minimum of five (two 
summer, two winter, and one dress...), it's expensive, or has the city 
finally agreed to buy uniforms and weapons instead of just giving an 
inadequate uniform check. My first year, my equipment cost $3500 US dollars 
in 1986...

Ob Trav: Here's what I bought roughly, so you could use it for NPC's, or 
maybe in the ship's locker

weapons:

service revolver: $200 (now $400)
off duty   "             "             "

Uniforms:

Winter Dress Uniform (Coat and Trousers)

Summer Dress Uniform (Light Weight coat) Note: Full dress just used for 
funerals, parades, and promotion ceremonies

Dress Uniform shirt (Note: the shirt and trousers are used with both dress 
jackets) 
These were tailored....

Street Uniform:

Duty Jacket (neat coat- It had a removable dayglow orange inner liner that 
said POLICE on the back. You removed it for warm weather, and just wore the 
jacket shell). You skipped the whole thing in summer....

at least two pairs of uniform trousers (I bought four; two lightweight, two 
winter)

at least four pairs of uniform shirts (two winter longsleeve, two summer 
shortsleeve. I think I had three each)

dark blue or black socks

civilian underwear (added for completness...)

two pairs of uniform shoes (one pair of black patent leather, one pair of 
black sneakers. The patent leather get worn with duty or dress uniform; 
sneakers just for duty)

uniform hat (worn with duty or full dress. Note: I could have gotten a 
baseball cap for duty wear, but I hated them as unprofessional...)

dark blue wool sweater to cover the neck in winter (worn under duty jacket)

winter hat with earflaps (I hated this too, but wore it when I was on foot in 
the winter)

rain coat, and rain hat cover.

Uniform trousers and shirts are dry cleaned...

Accessories:

Body Armor (bullet resistent vest)

Black Beasketweave leather Pistol belt with:
belt, revolver holster, handcuffs and case (one pair required; most cops 
bought two), radio and holder, MACE (chemical spray) and holder, flashlight 
and holder, nightstick (baton/club) and holder, keychain holder, reload 
holder (contained two revolver speedloaders), rubber glove pouch.

concealed carry/off duty holsters for both revolvers
off duty ID and badge holder
black leather ticket and memo book holder
white gloves for parades
whistle
two boxes (100 rounds) of ammo (minimum every 6 months to requalify; I shot 
once a week).

Note: today substitute a semiautomatic pistol (Glock 19 for NY) for the 
revolver. Add three magazines to equipment list...

Hope this helps a GM...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:47:02 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Station

In a message dated 99-04-28 12:49:43 EDT, you write:

<< The secret is not to use ships.  Use some kind of low acceleration engine 
to
 hurl some large comets from nearby Ort clouds into the rift. Put
 timer-transmitters on them and then wait. In a few years (or decades) there
 are your refueling stations.  Remember the Imperium has lasted over a
 thousand years. What's a few decades investment to open up a new trade
 sector? >>

I like it, now if a working acient ship came out of jump space screaming at 
the top of its lungs that something bad was coming that might making the 
Imperium move a little quicker.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:40:43 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: re: Surface-Based Black Globes

At 18:26 28.04.99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 10:27 AM 4/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>David Smart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>IMO, this is the *worst* tactic any world could
>>attempt. Such a world is invulnerable to *all*
>>effects, including _normal_solar_heat_. 
>>
>>Anybody care to figure how long it takes an
>>Earth-like atmosphere to begin cooling without
>>*any* solar energy being received by the planet?
>>The thermal effects, I believe, are as if the planet
>>was instantly dropped into intergalactic space,
>>thermally speaking.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>That's OK. When the capacitators blow, it should heat the
>>planet back up again nicely. ;-)
>>
>
>
>Also as long as the globe is up you are protected from all forces including
>gravity.  A planet would leave it's orbit!

This is the reason i love the TML. Me, with no real background in physics,
i just feel something is wrong, but but cant explain why. 
If i need an explanation, you guys always have an explanation ready.

Thanks, guys.
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:54:12 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

>
>Many people feel that they _do_ need guns, for self defense, if nothing
>else.  Personally, I'd want to (and do) have a firearm at home to defend
>myself against an intruder.

Probably depends on the socio-political outlook:
The need for a gun is less urgent here as most people do not have guns, 
and violent crime is not as prominent in the news. Most of us feel perfectly 
safe without a gun.
Americans on the other hands, have always had guns, so the entire outlook
is different.
If everyone has them or could get them very easily (and waiting a week is
easy compared to our system) we would probable feel the need to arm
ourselves as well. 
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:49:16 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions

At 15:30 28.04.99 -0600, you wrote:
>I have been awarded the contract for GT: Starships, the sourcebook for
>starships of all kinds in GURPS Traveller. 
Please do us all a favor: 
1) Go out, get T4 : Starships. 
2) Look at it over and over again.
3) Now you know what NOT to do, write the book.

Seriously, try to base the book more on MTs SOM by DGP in style.

- -Describe a ship in detail (please include length in the description, 
i always hated guessing that one bit of information), more in text than in
tables.
I would wish for it to be a good read rather than a reference book
(although making it
both wouldnt hurt)
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:53:35 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Original of the term "Lighter"

In a message dated 99-04-28 18:42:56 EDT, you write:

<< A lighter is a ship which carries a bigger ships cargo to the port the 
bigger 
 ship cant reach [Trav:unstreamlined cargo vessel transfers cargo to a 
 lighter-the lighter gets it down to downport]...it makes the bigger one 
 lighter...
 ...At least I think that it is that were it originated ...
  >>

I have never heard that one before.  From what I have heard the term "Hooker" 
came from the Civil War, one of the generals with a last name of Hooker 
brought women of the night to base camp to improve moral, when people from 
other units asked who the women were they would reply that they were hookers, 
thats what I have heard anyway.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:44:12 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Two questions

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> At 09:05 AM 4/26/99 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> >I've been writing a spreadsheet to convert Traveller worlds to GT
format,
> >and noticed the 'Climate' stat in GT.  Is it a thing from Gurps: Space? 
> >How is it generated?  Is there a plausible way to fake it from Traveller
> >stats?
> 
> It's a handwave for average temperature.  In GURPS Space, the book
suggests
> choosing an appropriate temperature range.
> 
> The Climates given are:

<snipped>

Thank you.  

Isn't it a shame the Traveller temperature range formulae are so difficult,
and based on stuff like orbits?

The GURPS approach might actually be better, for most purposes.

> >Also:  How old was Arbellatra during the Second Frontier War?  I seem to
> >recall one source saying she was quite young.  If so, what does this
mean
> >about the Imperial Navy?
> 
> According to the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, Arbellatra was born in 587. 
The
> Second Frontier War lasted from 615 to 620, so she was 28-33 during the
> war.  This *is* young for a Sector Admiral, but she was a genius.  It's
> also noted that Cleon V (565 [615] 618) was the one who gave Arbellatra
the
> command.

This is the same source I was looking at, except I decided to 'disbelieve'
it for a moment.

It also mentions Soegz, the Vargr that became Archduke of Antares, was one
of her subordinates, and obviously a very important one.
 
Rebellion Sourcebook (IIRC) mentions that Dulinor's brother was some honcho
Admiral of the Illelish fleet.  While this may have been arranged as part
of Dulinor's plot, it may also suggest a situation where the civil and
military authorities are sometimes both controlled by the same noble
families.

In this case, it would be plausible for Arbellatra to be a relative, or
heir, of the Sector Duke of the Marches, or one of the other major Dukes. 
This suggests, incidentally, an Alkhalikoi (sp?) connection to the Marches,
or at least Deneb, which may still exist.

Political appointees of this sort aren't necessarily disasterous, as long
as they have good subordinates, like Soegz, and the good sense to follow
their advice, at least until the appointees get a bit of a grip on the
rudiments of strategy.  

> and of course, the Templars were involved somehow.

Well, if you think about the networks and intrigues that run through the
Imperial nobility, this comment isn't actually totally silly.  The Imperium
pretty much is run by unaccountable families, cliques and factions. 
There's not just one Conspiracy, there's lots!

Thanks again,
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #522
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 523



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Surface-based Black Globes
Re: Fuel Stations
BITS Website Update - 28 April 99
Re: TAKE IT OFF THE LIST
Re: Surface based Black Globes
Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
Re: Original of the term "Lighter"
Re: Patches
Re: Original of the term "Lighter"
Re: Subsectors names for the Corridor sector 
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power
Re: Two questions
Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
Re: Two questions
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Patches
OT:Gazebo
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
Re: CT character gen programs
Re: CT character gen programs
Re: Space Station

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:03:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Surface-based Black Globes

I've just been skimming this thread, so apologies for and redundancies
with what has gone before...

When a black globe absorbs energy, it sends it to capacitors attached to
the BG generator.  Thus a world surrounded by one would send heat into the
BG and thus into the capacitors where it could be turned back into heat. 
Likewise with solar energy coming in from outside.  In fact, I can imagine
it being fairly hard to overload one of these things, as they've got the
entire planet to act as a heat sink (I'm thinking of a rockball world
with heat sinks running deep into the core). 

The big problem, of course, is building one this big.  Standard BGs are
cutting-edge TL-15/16 and these can cover only a ship.  Depending on the
principle of operation, making one bigger could be very difficult or
impossible. 

Someone else mentioned that turning a BG on while on the surface makes for
big problems because of energy absorbed from the atmosphere.  I've often
wondered about this:  How much energy would the BG be absorbing under
various circumstances?  On the day-side of Mercury I can see things going
very badly, but what about a nice 20 C day on earth?  What about the dark
side of an airless rock?

I had an adventure once where a landed ship turned on its BG to repel
attackers.  Some got in before it came on and a very cool (forgive the
pun) battle ensued as the two sides duked it out inside the heat-sucking
BG. I described the atmosphere freezing to the globe and sheets of solid
oxy/nitro falling from the ceiling.  Not sure if that's realistic, but it
was picturesque... 

Another thing I've wondered about:  What sorts of energy does a BG absorb?
If it absorbs kinetic/heat energy with perfect efficiency, then it
violates entropy, turning disorganized energy into organized energy in the
form of electricity stored in the capacitors.  If it doesn't absorb heat
with perfect efficiency, where does the stuff it doesn't absorb go?  Is it
deflected?  Is it converted into heat which radiates from the BG in all
directions?  Or what?

Just some thoughts...
Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:02:52 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations

In a message dated 99-04-28 10:53:54 EDT, you write:

<< I was talking High Guard 2nd Ed - I've got to remember to identify the
 design system in my posts. In HG, bridge requirements are based 
 entirely on the displacement of the ship. It's just a feature (bug?) of
 the level of abstraction used. >>

Ah, reminds me of the good old days of Battlespace (a fun game, but I whent 
looking for something more and very rarly play it now en days), but that game 
is not nearly as detailed as Traveller in terms of space combat (which is why 
I first started looking into the game, when I found out how neat it was I 
started looking for stuff, and I'm finaly starting to find it).  
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:41:17 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS Website Update - 28 April 99

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

The BITS website http://www.bits.org.uk/ has been updated to include the
following.

*T4 Gunsmith V1.3.4
Software by the TML's very own Andrew Moffatt-Vallance; this Excel 5
Spreadsheet for MacOS or Windows allows easy creation of wepons according
to the Fire, Fusion and Steel 2nd Edition (T4 version) rules. To be found
on the archive page...

*T-Shirts, Mouse Mats and Badges
Details of the promotional material we produced which is now available
direct from BITS in limited numbers. Pictures of all the badges and
T-Shirts are linked off the icon on the Product Page.

Dom (BITS Webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:03:55 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: TAKE IT OFF THE LIST

In a message dated 4/28/99 3:30:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< Okay first my apologies to all and sundry for this
 
 TAKE THE F***ING GUN CONTROL DEBATE TO EMAIL THIS IS NOT THE
 PLACE FOR IT.
 
 Not only is it distruptive and annoying and so far off topic that it ain't 
funny,
 its also rather insulting.
  >>

I agree...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:03:21 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Surface based Black Globes

In a message dated 99-04-28 11:00:54 EDT, you write:

<< Canon black globes don't radiate heat either so the temperature would be as
 it was the black globe turn-on: in equilibrium.
 
 The problem is that all life relies on entropy for its sustenance so the
 plants cannot use IR to grow and thus in the long run the world might have
 a problem. >>

What about setting it to flicker?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:12:01 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions

At 12:49 AM 4/29/99 +0200, you wrote:
>At 15:30 28.04.99 -0600, you wrote:
>>I have been awarded the contract for GT: Starships, the sourcebook for
>>starships of all kinds in GURPS Traveller. 
>Please do us all a favor: 
>1) Go out, get T4 : Starships. 
>2) Look at it over and over again.
>3) Now you know what NOT to do, write the book.
>
>Seriously, try to base the book more on MTs SOM by DGP in style.
>
>-Describe a ship in detail (please include length in the description, 
>i always hated guessing that one bit of information), more in text than in
>tables.
>I would wish for it to be a good read rather than a reference book
>(although making it
>both wouldnt hurt)

And on that note, please have lot's and lot's of pictures.  All sorts of
them.  Deckplans, rendered shots (No amount of Jesse DeGraff's art is too
much...) line drawings, whatever.  I'd really like to see at least one
exterior shot and one set of deckplans for each ship.  

The way I game, a ship description with no illustration is almost useless.
I like to be able to show my players what the vehicle looks like.

Oh, and I agree with everything that Volker said... :)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:08:43 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Original of the term "Lighter"

In a message dated 4/28/99 7:00:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SRKOALA@aol.com 
writes:

<< From what I have heard the term "Hooker" 
 came from the Civil War, one of the generals with a last name of Hooker 
 brought women of the night to base camp to improve moral, when people from 
 other units asked who the women were they would reply that they were 
hookers, 
 thats what I have heard anyway.
 -Stephen >>

	It's actually the opposite.  General Hooker was a stickler for 
morality and did everything he could to ban prostitutes from the campsites.  
So the term "Hooker's girls" was applied to them as a predictable piece of 
sarcasm.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:18:38 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Patches

Dear Folks -

For your info, Doug sent me a copy of his Imperial rank insignia, and all I
can say is: *Highly impressive!!*

For you military PC types, this is a *must have*.

When is is going up on the website? (awaiting Army officer insignia with
bated breath ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:18:49 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Original of the term "Lighter"

In a message dated 99-04-28 19:17:06 EDT, you write:

<< 	It's actually the opposite.  General Hooker was a stickler for 
 morality and did everything he could to ban prostitutes from the campsites.  
 So the term "Hooker's girls" was applied to them as a predictable piece of 
 sarcasm.
 
 				Dave Nelson >>

Thanks, now I just have to find were I saw that and let them know.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:22:19 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Subsectors names for the Corridor sector 

At 03:26 PM 4/27/1999 -0700, Keith Johnson wrote:
>This is what I have found:
>
>Corridor Sector by Subsectors
>A - Khouth
>B - Khukish
>C - Lemish
>D - The Narrows
>E - Ian
>F - Strand
>G - Naadi
>H - Uanti
>I - Shush
>J - ???
>K - ???
>L - Kivu
>M - Two Worlds
>N - Ashishinipar
>O - Sinta
>P - Sashrakusha
>
>Is this accurate? What is the name of subsector J & K?

Subsectors J & K are The Empty Void and Atu'l respectively.  All your other 
names are correct according to what I have down.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:29:07 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

>> At 09:27 PM 4/26/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>>>The question arises, how did the kids get access to those kinds of firearms?
>>>Of course, you can practically get AK-47s out of coin-operated vending
>>>machines in most of the USA. 
>>
>> A couple of minor points.
>>
>> 1> AK-47s are banned in most of the US, as are the 30-round magazines they
>> use.

A minor nits to pick.  AK-47 type weapons are not illegal or banned.  Even
the full auto examples are not illegal.  There are rules regulating them.
Flash hiders, pistol grips, normal stocks, and bayonet lugs, all EVIL as
pronounced by the Clinton administration.  The semiauto clones have to
follow the Brady Law.  Further, 30rnd mags are not banned either, you just
can not manufacture or import them anymore.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:01:29 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 28 April 1999 11:54
Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power


>
>>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>>Subject: Re: Drop Tanks
>>


<snip>

>>This implies a very high current "switch" of some sort needs to be
thrown
>>when you're ready to jump.
>>
>>That switch, because of the amount of power involved, needs to go
from open
>>circuit to closed in as short a time as possible, because for the
duration
>>of the switching it will be soaking that entire potential
diffference.
>>Taking that further, _unless_ you are going to discharge all that
power in
>>one go, you need something capable of regulating the current
equivalent of
>>your 3*10^21 MJ
>
>If this is true, then this technologies should be able to be applied
to
>capacitors for other high energy applications.
>


ah, but the capacitor banks for the jump drive use Zuchai crystals, as
nothing else can hold such an amount of energy and release it
correctly.  To discourage use of such crystals for weapon capacitors
is to handwave that after discharging they require about a week for
the crystal structure to re-align before being capable of charging up
again.  So *maybe* one big shot a week *if* the rest of the weapon can
handle the power surge.....

>>But even that could be eliminated merely by stating that no-one's
been able
>>to build a weapon (so far) tthat can use all that power without
slagging,
>>and the only reason the jump drive can handle the power is that it
no longer
>>exists in real space at the instant it activates and takes all the
>>power.....
>
>Please dont say that 'No-one's ever built a weapon that can use all
that
>power' around Ditzie :) Do we still have that Lab Ship design
floating
>around ? Ditzie is wondering if Maaaarketing would think if there
would be
>a market for an armed version ...
>
>>
>>This suggests that "timing problems" of mere nano-seconds between
activating
>>the power feed switch and the jump unit could cause a huge secondary
>>discharge into surrounding equipment resulting in catastrophic
system
>>damage. (i.e: the ship blows up )
>>
>>Obviously, the two switches need to be tightly ganged...
>>
>>And yes, I now have this picture in my head of the ship's engineer
throwing
>>one of those huge pole switches beloved of Frankenstien movies and
such
>>(though nothing like that would be able to handle this sort of
current )
>><grin>
>>
>>Frankly, one of the reasons I like this idea is that it emphaizes
how
>>_dangerous_ jump drives are, because of the amount of energy  you're
>>throwing around.
>
>I think the fact that 'Oh yeah, and sometimes you dont come out' is
pretty
>decent :) Plus the fact that no-one seems to know exactly how they
work ...
>
>>>(1) Compare for example the boring mundanity of the description of
the
>>>Seven Mothers in 'Gods of Prax' with the sublimity of the far more
modern
>>>'Pelorian Rhapsody'.
>>
>>"Gods of Prax" ?
>>Is that an Avalon Hill thing ?
>>:-)
>
>Gods of Prax ? Cults of Prax :) Y'know, I've been having these
strange
>dreams lately ...
>something about this bloke called Ar-something.


Ar-Pharazon? (sp)

<g>

>
>Ian Whitchurch
>


regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:25:23 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two questions

In a message dated 4/28/99 4:03:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au writes:

<< In this case, it would be plausible for Arbellatra to be a relative, or
 heir, of the Sector Duke of the Marches, or one of the other major Dukes. 
 This suggests, incidentally, an Alkhalikoi (sp?) connection to the Marches,
 or at least Deneb, which may still exist. >>

Norris and Strephon both have the same middle name: Aledon. Hmm...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:57:44 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions

At 03:30 PM 4/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>	Starship components

How are you handling some of the inconsistencies in the modules presented
in GT?  Some of them have resisted attempts to reverse engineer, and will
thus not make sense next to alternately developed modules.  

My personal recommendation is to throw them out and redo from scratch, this
time carefully disclosing exactly what goes into each module.  I realize
you may not be allowed to do this by the powers that be....  OTOH, AR1 did
contradict  GT in several cases (the Vargr package is different, the costs
of Psionics are different...)  so maybe it's doable after all.  I realize
that this would involve duplicating a lot of work, but I for one would be
quite willing to help out.  

On that note, please feel free to use any of the modules posted on my web
site.  Also, I have a fairly good beam weapons module design spreadsheet,
and if you'd like, I can e-mail it to you.  It's currently in Excel '97
format, but I can try to convert to any other format you'd like.

Separate question:  On your web site you have the request from the IN
author.  I've worked up a GT conversion of AHL.  Do I send it to you, or to
the author directly?

Thanks,



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:15:33 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two questions

In a message dated 99-04-28 19:03:28 EDT, you write:

<< Isn't it a shame the Traveller temperature range formulae are so difficult,
 and based on stuff like orbits?
  >>

One book that you might want to take a look at, if you like the detailed 
stuff, is World  Building, the one book that you need if you want to build a 
world.  Does anyone have a system for generating world maps and is there one 
in a T4 product?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:36:39 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

>Ob Traveller:  It's a mark of good role-playing and immersion in the
>milieu for players to ask when they arrive on a world, "what
>transportation is available?" rather than, "we want to buy an
>air/raft."


    OBTraveller:  It is a mark of a good role-player & immersion in the
milieu as well as the place for the characters to ask when they arrive on a
world, "Where is the nearest bar?"

>--Glenn


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:36:46 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Patches

In a message dated 4/28/99 4:23:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

<< For your info, Doug sent me a copy of his Imperial rank insignia, and all I
 can say is: *Highly impressive!!*
  >>

I couldn't get the file to open. I got gibberish....:-(

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:58:52 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: OT:Gazebo

Some time ago I read a story about a AD&D game in which the GM had told the
players they saw a gazebo.  One of the players didn't know what it was and
attacked it thinking it was some sort of monster.  I saw the story on a BBS in
Dallas Tx several years ago and I am hoping to find again.  if any of you know of
it or have a copy of it I would like to have it.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:06:21 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

> > From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> 
> > > Or, for a twist, they can be hired by the rebels as training or
> > > stiffening cadre, or as a special operations unit (sort of like The
> > > Magnificent Seven, which I've always wanted to translate into a
> > > Traveller adventure).
> > 
> > A lotta plots from some of the more popular Hollywierd flicks would make
> > good adventures.
> 
> Actually, I was thinking of Akira Kurosawa's 1954 samurai movie, not the
> 1960 western, but you're right about Hollywood providing some playable
> ideas.

From the few clips I've seen of 'Seven Samurai', it makes me want to learn 
Japanese so I can enjoy it in the original.

> (Hmm... Chushingura, a movie that retells the story of the 47 ronin,
> would also make an interesting campaign ....)

Did they ever release a dubbed or subtitled version of 'The Potempkin'?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:55:08 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

Walter Smith wrote:

> Interesting work.
>
> As you pointed out earlier, an all-average person will seldom become
> a Marine. I'm sure the jarheads on the list will like that part of it. <G>
>
> Walt Smith

But will they appreciate the fact that you had better have some
high Soc to get promoted, and high Edu to even get commissioned?
Interesting when compared to Navy where Soc assists commission
effects promotion.

The implication is that high ranking Marines are well connected,
but high ranking Navy are well educated.  I would have expected
it to go the other way, based on the military people I know.

:-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:58:14 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> > Yesterday, I was experimenting with CT chargen.  Something I haven't done
> > in a long time.  Discovered something interesting.  The Chargen rules in
> > Book 1 are heavily skewed towards the Army.
>
> These Book 1 characters, or expanded characters?

Book 1.

Books 4 and 5 get much closer, and sometimes exceed,
the 1.25 skills per year average built into T4 and T5beta.
I'll double check, but I think with those advanced systems,
you could conceiveably get 2 skills/year for 24 skills in
3 terms.

What this experiment showed me is that Traveller
Chargen has made continued steps towards balancing
the different careers.

I'm still working on my Advanced Chargen for all T4/5
careers, from time to time.  Yes, even Entertainer.  ;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:32:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Space Station

- --- jcarlino  wrote:

> << So, you're planning to set up a series of "Gas Stations" along a
> set
>  corridor into this region of space.  My question is, just how
> efficient is
>  a "Jump Tanker"?  It could be a total logistical nightmare trying to
> set up
>  string of fueling stations if you have to go very far.  The cost of
> your
>  fuel for the run will be astronomical, and as a result it will cost
> a small
>  fortune to make the trip just one way.>>
> 
> The secret is not to use ships.  Use some kind of low acceleration
> engine to
> hurl some large comets from nearby Ort clouds into the rift. Put
> timer-transmitters on them and then wait. In a few years (or decades)
> there
> are your refueling stations.  Remember the Imperium has lasted over a
> thousand years. What's a few decades investment to open up a new
> trade
> sector?

I think it might be more than a few decades. What do you mean when 
you say low acceleration? Say you get the comet up to 10% of the 
speed of light. It will take a decade to get 1 light year in. He was 
mentioning a 10 parsec rift. 32.6 light years. You would have 
to get one of those comets to within, say, 3 parsecs of the other side 
for a J3 ship to make it. That means the longest one will  be in place 
in no shorter than 228 years, not counting acceleration and
deceleration 
once in place. No matter how you cut it, the time will still end up
kind of 
long term.

Terry Mixon 
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #523
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 524



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)
Vilani Hazing
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #523
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
Re: Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)
Re: melee weapons
Re: melee weapons
News Sources (was: RPG Paranoia)
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Starport Weapon Control IMTU
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
General Hooker and his friends
Re: OT:Gazebo
Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power
Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
[OT] Re: heavy sigh...
Re: melee weapons
[OT] Re: heavy sigh...
Re: General Hooker and his friends
Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
Re: Two questions
[OT]Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:17:36 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

In a message dated 4/28/99 6:12:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jamstar@earthlink.net writes:

<< Did they ever release a dubbed or subtitled version of 'The Potempkin'? >>

I saw a subtitled copy of Eisenstein's Battleship Potempkin in college. Great 
movie. It was the best propaganda I ever saw. I wanted the kill the Zarists 
with my bare hands by the end of the movie...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:57:50 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
> Date: Wednesday, 28 April, 1999 4:03 AM
> 
> At 06:19 PM 4/27/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Ob Trav: What _will_ troops do to kill week in Jump? Especially Ground
> >Pounders with limited capability to train?
> 
> Well, the deck can never be shiny enough for the First Sergeant...
> 
> In reality, play cards, listen to tunes, and maintain equipment.  I
imagine
> that the NCOs will plan a level of activity to keep troops from going
stir
> crazy.

I imagine you could rig the battledress suits as pretty effective combat
simulators.  Tell the computer to have everyone run in place instead of
actually moving and use the suit systems to display sim data.  Could be
really funny to watch, seeing ranks of battlesuited troops dive to the deck
for no apparent reason, but it could also be very effective.

The next step is to start practicing your close quarters skills in the
corridors, which I understand real Marines do actually do from time to
time.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:41:10 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: Vilani Hazing

In "Vilani & Vargr" by DGP, the Vilani were said to have some
cultural/psychological characteristics roughly similar to corporate Japan
(group more important than the individual, nonconformity shunned).  This
could lead to brutal hazing designed to beat a newbie into submission, or to
punish a nonconformist or a "boat-rocker".  The Japanese school system has
suffered such student hazings.  Vilani military hazing could be greatly
magnified if the mostly Vilani unit received some newbies from a world with
a non-Vilani culture.  "Vilani & Vargr" also states that the Vilani used the
most efficient means possible to achieve their goals, and in warfare this
meant nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons.  This indicates a callous
disregard for sentient life, for anyone not perceived as part of the Vilani
"group".   The Vilani may relentlessly dehumanize any sentients other than
themselves!  This could lead to possibly fatal hazing.  Consider also the
propaganda which the Vilani must have created for themselves in order to
justify their oppression, exploitation, and conquest of other races,
especially those helpless against them during the Ziru Siirka period.  The
master race of a gigantic interstellar empire could not have been softies,
after beating down every other race with FTL and those worlds foolish enough
to resist.   Perhaps they have an ethnocentrism similar to that of ancient
China, a firm belief that thousands of years of wisdom, culture, scientific
advancements, and military victories made them inherently better than their
underdeveloped neighbors.

Consider also the level of incompetence and corruption which made the Terran
victory possible.  A monolithic empire, stagnant for a thousand years, with
officials bent on enriching themselves and spending even more on lavish,
jaded pleasures.  Below them, peasants and laborers toil ceaselessy for
generations to feed their masters.  The published OTU products depict the
Vilani as a harmonious business oriented group with their children learning
with them in the workplace, etc.  Reading between the lines I see a gigantic
pyramid of oppression, greed, and corruption, more along the lines of the
empire of Shaddam IV in Dune.  The workers at the bottom of the pyramid are
those whose children learn the profession their ancestors have slaved in for
centuries.  Squatting on the workers' bent backs are the megacorporations
and corporate security forces.  Riding the megacorps, on top of it all, is
the Emperor of the Iridium Throne with his majority shares and enforcing his
will with his merciless Imperial Marines and planet nuking Battle Fleets.
The Vilani will definitely have a rich military tradition, and violent
hazing is most probably a part of it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:50:10 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #523

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> >> 1> AK-47s are banned in most of the US, as are the 30-round magazines they
> >> use.
> 
> A minor nits to pick.  AK-47 type weapons are not illegal or banned.  Even
> the full auto examples are not illegal.  There are rules regulating them.
> Flash hiders, pistol grips, normal stocks, and bayonet lugs, all EVIL as
> pronounced by the Clinton administration.  The semiauto clones have to
> follow the Brady Law.  Further, 30rnd mags are not banned either, you just
> can not manufacture or import them anymore.

According to:

http://www.senate.gov/member/ca/feinstein/general/assault1.html

...the AK47 is banned by name even in semi-auto, as well as the 
Tec-9 used in Littleton. 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:00:21 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514

Juliean Galak said:

>You are, of course right, in that the purpose of a gun is to kill.
>However, it's proper purpose is to kill in self defense, not in murder.
>Just like a car used as a murder weapon is an otherwise legal object being
>used in an illegal fashion, so IMHO is a perfectly legitimate gun being
>used in an illegal way.  It's that use of the gun that should (and is) be
>illegal, not the gun itself.


I in no way mean to enter into the gun debate on any level. However, I was
under the impression that the firearm was invented with offensive intent,
and later adapted to more mundane uses such as hunting. My basic point is,
the early innovators in firearm design weren't designing weapons for
self-defense. In fact, the early handcannons and matchlocks were huge and
very unwieldy, which I would think would make them impractical in a
self-defense role...

With that being said, I have an honest Traveller related question for the
list:

ObTrav:

Does anyone actually at any point find a use for low-tech weapons? I don't
mean swords, or a particular "novelty" item (such as a crossbow for stealthy
assassins).

With the wide variety of tech-levels, it seems to make sense to put in
muskets and the like, but is there a real need for them? I can imagine some
uses that I may incorporate in the future:

A world in which the only allowable weapons are ammo-light repeaters (such
as revolvers). The focus for shooters on the planet is a high degree of
accuracy and very careful shooting. In fact, in a G:T game a shootout might
be resolved with the Old West rules from Compendium II.

A world in which the only legal weapons are matchlock dueling pistols. The
weapons are amazingly expensive to maintain, and not terribly effective.
Disputes are often settled by duelling.

The real important question is who would ever use archaic weapons in the
Third Imperium? Can anyone think of some possible reasons that they'd be
used?

Religious? I heard once that the Catholic Church had a dislike for black
powder weapons (they thought the bullets were guided by devils). I also
heard  that they had some distaste for rifled guns when they came along,
since it was said that the noise of a ricochet was actually the voice of a
demon.

Traditional? Maybe archaic weapons have a very specific ceremonial use. They
are expensive, beautiful and hand-crafted. Training is allowed only to
upper-classes, or specific classes. Maybe warriors are still trained in
their use much like Imperial Marines are trained with sabres? They serve
some ceremonial purposes?

It's just a question, 'cause there are plenty of archaic weapons in
different versions of Traveller. While it is easy to imagine their use in a
milieu such as TNE, I'm trying to imagine some more "cultural quirks." These
might really help in CT games, since some of the skills can be really
bizarre. "What, I've got skills in energy weapons and archaic firearms?
How'd that happen?"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:30:07 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)

>There is some canon on this about patents and such in the history of
>the Vilani.  IIRC, there is rather weak patent protection, or its extremely
>difficult to get one.

Actually, there was incredibly _strong_ patent protection, because the
inventor got the patent to the whole _idea_, not just the implementation,
and IIRC there was no expiry.

Imagine if Babbage's estate was owed royalties by everyone creating
anything in the computer field. Imagine if Babbage had to get permission
from Jacquard to use the idea of automated controls. Imagine if...

Now picture trying to get all the permissions needed to actually change
anything.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:38:34 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: melee weapons

>The important word here is "skilled." It does not take as much skill to be
>deadly with a firearm as it does to be deadly with a knife, however.

Just as it is easier to shoot a gun well than shoot a bow well. (Training
was a big reason that firearms took over in Europe, according to Keegan.)

>This is *not* to say that it doesn't take skill to be a good shooter. It
>takes a lot of skill to be a good shooter.
>
>What I am saying is that it is easier for an unskilled shooter to kill a
>target than an unskilled knife fighter.


How well does GURPS model this in character creation?  As I don't use the
GURPS system, I've never bothered with analysing the CC rules.




Reminds me of the old joke.

How can you tell who won a knife fight?

He's the chap who went to the hospital.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:43:46 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: melee weapons

>First rule of combat (real world) when confronting someone with a
>gun:  Stand very, very still.
>
>First rule of combat (real world) when confronting someone with a
>knife:  Get away anyway you can.


Advice from my first VP:

Always carry a fresh cup of coffee when asking an intruder to leave. If
they pull a weapon and look like they'll use it, flick the coffee into
their eyes.  They usually disarm themselves after this.

Amazing chap. Never fussed, never hurried, yet was somehow there when bad
trouble was brewing. (No pun intended.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:53:18 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: News Sources (was: RPG Paranoia)

>In a message dated 4/28/99 11:37:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk writes:
>
><< Saddly, at the end of 1997 in  Myanmar  (formerly  Burma)  a  man
> entered a school and killed 10 children and 2 adults.  He used  a
> machete, and was alone.  >>
>
>Notice the lack of media attention...
> (my opinion: because they weren't Caucasion, European or American, and
>didn't use a gun...)

Deaths with guns in that part of the world don't get in the news either. I
suspect the nationality is a bigger factor than the method.


Quick quiz: what is the connection between contemporary Sierra Leone and
WWI?  (This one has an ObTrav adventure seed, which I'll post after someone
gets the answer.)

How does this relate to news sources? Look at where you got the answer...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:04:26 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

>>
>>Many people feel that they _do_ need guns, for self defense, if nothing
>>else.  Personally, I'd want to (and do) have a firearm at home to defend
>>myself against an intruder.
>
>Probably depends on the socio-political outlook:
>The need for a gun is less urgent here as most people do not have guns,
>and violent crime is not as prominent in the news. Most of us feel perfectly
>safe without a gun.
>Americans on the other hands, have always had guns, so the entire outlook
>is different.

Lyall Watson, in Dark Nature, mentions that while the stats for violent
death in England have been dropping steadily for centuries, people feel
less safe now than they did 50 years ago.

In Toronto, where I work, people are more worried than ever about violent
crime, and yet we have less violent crime now than we have for a long time.

An acquaintance of mine in the police force thinks that this is because we
get a lot of American TV, especially those 'live' cop shows, and we hear
more crime stories from other places than we did before, so people are
hearing about more crimes than ever. And if you hear more about it, the
problem must be increasing, eh?

It's a perception thing. Sorta like life.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:22:58 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Starport Weapon Control IMTU

This is how I handle weapons in starports. For the record, it generally
follows my personal beliefs about firearms.


Guns are legal, even military grade fusion guns. Any weapon may be
transported within the starport, providing that it is secured in
inoperative condition. (Which I define as taking at least a couple of
minutes to unlock/reassemble.)

All explosives, energy weapons and automatic-fire weapons must be secured,
unless carried by licensed guards.

All weapons, secured or not, must be registered with security. This is
fast, and usually cheap -- essentially taking records so that, if the
weapon is used in a crime, security has a record that they can use to help
track it down. This tends to discourage gratuitous use of weapons, and also
makes reporting a lost weapon really good idea.

Any starport establishment may ban weapons, at the manager's discretion. If
this bothers customers, they can always shop elsewhere.

Safety of the port and patrons are a primary concern. The starport manager
can always increase restrictions if necessary. Most will only do this if
there is a demonstrated need: more security costs money, which must come
from some other budget.

Some possible restrictions:
- - screamer-tagged guns (call security when fired, relay sight-picture)
- - weapon-carriers must wear prominent badge (to alert security)



In game terms, a mercenary unit could transport its assault rifles through
the starport, but only in secured cases. Combat knives and sidearms would
be legal, but probably frowned upon unless part of a uniform. Openly
displaying weapons in a culture where they are uncommon will draw the
attention of a lot of people, including security, which may not be a
problem if the players are being above-board about everything.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:05:19 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

> >Obtrav:  The Ramparts need pylons or weapon bays (small ones) if they are
> >going to carry cheap expendibles for the Close Air Support mission; or do
> >they just blast every target with lasers?
> 
> Hmmm, this harks back to the space- vs atmospheric fighter debate!
> 
> Maybe here is a reasonable example of how a multi-role TL 15 atmospheric
> fighter could be more capable than a specialised TL 15 space fighter. And
> probably shows how it would cost more.

The Rampart's laser in BL (and Striker II evaluation) can shred the armor on 
any Imperial AFV except the front on the Heavy Grav Tank IIRC.  It does have 
USL grapples for space missiles.  Why waste em on grav vehicles when the 
laser has unlimited shots and is just as effective?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:21:49 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: General Hooker and his friends

I actually know  a girl who is a blood relative to one of those women in
Hooker's camp.
ObTrav:  We always read about lone battlecruisers guarding interdicted
worlds for decades.  How does the crew get rest and relaxation when it takes
weeks to get anywhere?  How does the Imperial Navy handle shore leave, when
they patrol, train in, and garrison subsectors filled with mostly
uninhabitable rockballs?  "All 700 of us are going to visit the one tiny bar
at the Way Station. Woohoo."  There can't be much of a recreation scene.  A
military the size of 3I's must have entire systems devoted to it as garrison
bases.  The depots are obvious, but there must be others for the Imperial
Army and Marines, as well as the rest of the Navy. Are there entire systems
that exist like parasites off the military?  An entire world of pawn shops
and strip joints?!  "Now entering the Itaewon system."  "Standby for
shoreleave at the Radcliff Downport."

I have never seen a Traveller deckplan with recreational facilities
sufficient to its crew.  If any former RL naval veterans can shed some light
what shipboard recreation facilities are normally present, it would be
appreciated.

If we knew more about what Imperial military personnel do in their off time
and about the places that exist to serve (and overcharge) them, it would
help in designing adventures.  Are they restricted to the starport?  Do they
have their own district to party in or can they mingle in the downport city?
Feel free to reply with anything you've used in YTU.  I've used a
tremendous, luxurious Shoreleave Arcology, built especially for imperial
military personnel that would let them play hard in recognition of the
months aboard ship.  No limits parties for as long as someone's buying the
beer.  live bands, pools, discos, as well as parks for troops to enjoy some
space and quiet after being cooped up with cabinmates for months on end.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:21:55 -0400
From: "Daniel Poulin" <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: OT:Gazebo

One of the recent issues of Knights of the Dinner Table had a repeat of the
story.  You can also go to www.rpg.net (a site worth goint to anyway) and
look at the humour section.  There is a link to the story.

http://www.rpg.net/realm/humor.html

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

- ----------
> From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: OT:Gazebo
> Date: 28 avr. 1999 20:58
> 
> Some time ago I read a story about a AD&D game in which the GM had told
the
> players they saw a gazebo.  One of the players didn't know what it was
and
> attacked it thinking it was some sort of monster.  I saw the story on a
BBS in
> Dallas Tx several years ago and I am hoping to find again.  if any of you
know of
> it or have a copy of it I would like to have it.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?
> 
> 
>           Shimmer
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:45:07 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power

>
>
> ah, but the capacitor banks for the jump drive use Zuchai crystals, as
> nothing else can hold such an amount of energy and release it
> correctly.  To discourage use of such crystals for weapon capacitors
> is to handwave that after discharging they require about a week for
> the crystal structure to re-align before being capable of charging up
> again.  So *maybe* one big shot a week *if* the rest of the weapon can
> handle the power surge.....

Just how many planets are you planning on blowing up in a week? ONE shot
at that power level is more than enough.  And you didn't take into the
account of downsizing the whole thing to more manageable levels.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:49:12 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

>>Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>

>>Ok, just a question: What's wrong with the T4 Starships book?  (I don't
>>have it, and have only glanced through it briefly.  My impression was that
>>other than the art it was ok...)


>

>Well, lessee.

 >-"Rather" loose interpretations of the artwork ......
 >....
 >-primitive/thoughtless layout and design (I mean, really now. BLACK
pages?)
 -...

> I'm sure others could come up with more, but my point is this: If you are
a
>completist, and can find this book for <$5, pick it up. The two or three
>useable pages in this book do not warrant picking it up for more.

GC

I got it for a quarter as my game dealer was cleaning out his T4 stuff to
make way for G:T. After looking it over I think it still was overpriced. :)

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:11:44 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: [OT] Re: heavy sigh...

Dear Folks -

Julian said:
>Guns do make
>it a bit easier, but it's the decision to kill that is the problem, not
the
>tool you use that's at fault.

I take your point, but the other thing is that if a crowd runs in all
directions from a guy with a sword, he is only going to be able to hit a
few of them (and unless he knows his weapon, he may no be able to do
killing damage all the time). Whereas the same guy with a fully-automatic
military-grade weapon can shoot many more of them, at his leisure. Remember
our own TML's "Sniper" thread: "Don't run, you'll just die tired". Also,
stabbing someone up-cloase-and-personal with a knife is different from
shooting them from afar. We've made it too easy to kill people.

Anyway, _this_ is the line of thought I can't fathom:

1.   Yes, I can understand that it would be fun to use full autofire
weapons at a firing range; BUT
2.   No, I don't understand why a person would want to keep such a weapon
at home, rather than keep it safely locked up at said rifle range.
Convenience? Or do they seriously expect to use it against intruders (thus
demonstrating pre-meditated intent if they ever *did* shoot someone)? Or
are they expecting to use it to threaten their wife (as, unfortunately,
many domestic shootings in Oz have demonstrated)? Or (as some of the more
extremist groups are reported as arguing) is it to protect themselves
against the day the the Feds/UN come knocking down the door to stomp on the
individual freedoms accorded to the citizenry?? (Rampant paranoia or
what?!?)

Ooof, this is becoming an anti-gun rant, which is not its intent.

[At home, I keep a number of my grandfather's trophys he received from
various gun clubs in the 60's. He enjoyed the skill of shooting clay
pigeons with a shotgun, and was damn good at it. And he kept his weapons at
home. However, he taught me the basics of gun safety (I think Mark Cook
posted them here), such as "every gun is loaded", "do not point your gun at
something you don't want to destroy", etc. Pa even disliked kids playing
cops and robbers - he thought that such behaviour desensitised them to the
dangers of and responsibility for a weapon. Sound familiar?]

As I said, my puzzlement comes from the q: "why keep the thing at home?"
_Is_ the sole answer "for convenience"? Am I missing something?? Help!

ObTravRef: Something that others have commented on, is that it is
interesting that Law Level is _primarily_ tied to weapon restrictions. Why?
Marc and Loren, can you give us the definitive answer as to why you chose
to tie this particular marker to Law Level?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:19:10 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: melee weapons

- ----------
> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>

> >What I am saying is that it is easier for an unskilled shooter to kill a
> >target than an unskilled knife fighter.
> 
> 
> How well does GURPS model this in character creation?  As I don't use the
> GURPS system, I've never bothered with analysing the CC rules.
> 
Pretty well, I think. Characters with average or above average IQ have a
bonus to their Guns skill (I think this would also apply to default use,
but I won't swear to that)  Even a second of aiming will give a gun user a
significant accuracy bonus, offset by fairly small range penalties at close
range.  At 7 yards, the range penalty would just match the accuracy bonus
of a typical pistol.  An extra second or two of aiming would add an
additional bonus to hit.  

Also, even the smallest gun does more damage than a large knife wielded by
a person of average strength.  

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:21:41 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: [OT] Re: heavy sigh...

Dear Folks -

Aaarh, feel free to ignore 90% of my last post. I'm only up to #513 and now
realise that multiple people have requested to remove the "gun thread" from
the TML. Fair enough too.

...but I'm still interested in getting a response from Marc or Loren about
linking Law Level to weapon control...
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:42:40 -0500
From: "Kevin Walsh" <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: General Hooker and his friends

Maximus Interstellar Defense Industries produces the perfect ship 
for solving such problems on a small scale
The Lady Sally McGee class Pleasure Yacht

1,200 tons of jump capable bordello
adhering to all Imperial health and 
safety standards of course.

this ship in GT format is on my website
at http://www.advancenet.net/~meow/gtrav.htm

or if its preferred I can post it here.

Kevin Walsh, AKA Shadowcat
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans web pages
"There is a fine line between Sanity and Insanity
I Dance that line"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:38:15 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions

Juliean Galak wrote:

> And on that note, please have lot's and lot's of pictures.  All sorts of
> them.  Deckplans, rendered shots (No amount of Jesse DeGraff's art is too
> much...) line drawings, whatever.  I'd really like to see at least one
> exterior shot and one set of deckplans for each ship.

OOOoooohhh!  Color plates! Color Plates!

At the very least, Jesse needs the cover.
Loren, if you're listening, we need a full color Jesse cover!

Only thing I can think of is it might be useful to use an appendix,
similar to the one in 101 Starships, that shows the details on a
ship's creation so that you can see it matches the rules.
- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:40:31 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Two questions

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> Norris and Strephon both have the same middle name: Aledon. Hmm...

Isn't it Aella?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:42:38 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT]Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> Did they ever release a dubbed or subtitled version of 'The Potempkin'?

Yes.  Watched it in college.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #524
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 29 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 525



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...
The Imperium as a planetary owner
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Dress Codes (was Re: RPG Paranoia)
Re: melee weapons
Earth's Starport?
Re: Space Station
Re: [OT]Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Earth's Starport?
Re: melee weapons
Thanks for the latest ObTravs
Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
Re: Fuel Stations 
Re: Travellernomics 
Re: Fuel Stations 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
Re: General Hooker and his friends

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:40:35 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...

Dear Folks -

Steve wrote:
>I wouldn't go below a 2 Iron.  Its impossible to hit anything with
>a 1 Iron.

Choked on my lunch and had to explain to my work section...!! (one golfer
agrees, BTW!)

The line I heard goes:

"Golf is an attempt to direct an uncontrollable sphere into an inaccessable
hole with instruments ill-adapted for the purpose".

;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:45:23 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: The Imperium as a planetary owner

Dear Folks -

I would tend to agree that the Imperium, at least by 1100, would own a few
worlds directly. However, you might consider that this is right against the
original philosophy of only controlling the "space _between_ worlds".

Anyone with a reconciliation? Or should this have come out as part of the
Debate over a new Imperial Charter/Warrant?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:48:32 -0500
From: "Sam D. Thomas" <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

At 02:26 AM 4/28/99 , you wrote:
>> IRL, in the US military, all hazing is officially forbidden, and most of the
>> rituals have been stripped of everything but the name.  Unofficially, last
>> time I was in contact with someone from the fleet, crow tacking, pinning,
>> bloodstriping, etc... had all gone underground and was still very much a
>> part of the lifestyle.  You just don't get caught doing it, and nobody who
>> participates talks.
>
>Yeah, that's basically how it still is.  The officers and such used to know 
>and would look the other way (especially Mustangs), but more and more 
>commanders are being relieved and the whip is generally being cracked, 
>driving it to much more discrete methods.  You have the fools who go too far, 
>permanently injuring people, etc, too.  Then the really dim who videotape 
>such things.  Most are pretty tame and good natured.
>
>ob Trav.  Odds are such traditions are maintained and practiced by Solomani 
>units, but what about the Vilani?  Doesn't seem to go w/ my conception of 
>them, though they still practice jump dimming, etc.  It's more than possible. 
> Anyone have any ideas on Vilani "hazing?"  
>
>
>Gary 


Well as former USN serviceman, lets see the really big one is "Crossing The Line", ahh the fond memories of eating green eggs and purple pasta, wearing your clothes inside out, "Bull Nose Canons", blowing the seawater out of "Tie Downs" on the flight deck, the swish of the Shillelagh(sp), the smack of the Shillelagh upon "Wog" fantails, and wiggling down the "Chute".]

Crow Tacking is small taters, compared the "Crossing the Line" fun. I had fun doing Crow Tacking, I was 6'4", 245lbs, the look of horror as I prepared the target area, lovingly making sure there were no creases in it, the full draw back, cracking of the knuckles as I made my fist as per karate teacher had instructed me, the focusing yell as the blow was incoming, then the look of surprise when I pulled the blow to only small tap. Then the strong but firm hand shake.<G> 

I only hit two individuals with a full force blows, one was Samoan of extreme muscle mass(He had a 5" 75lb projo dropped on him from the deck and caught it after it bounced? off his pects) I did not even cause him to shift his balance, the other was a cruel ass hole who truly believed in making bruises in Crow Tacking, I and other higher ranking Petty Officers had warned him to cease in bruising, he did not, so we convinced him to quit(I think it was Malu(sp) the Samoan that finally convinced him cease).<G>

It sounds like the USN is becoming PC, what a same, another set of traditions passes into the mist...



Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:57:41 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Dress Codes (was Re: RPG Paranoia)

Dear Folks -

Chris Seamans asked:
>I know that it's amazingly off-topic, but I have a question about this and
>I've never gotten the opportunity to ask someone who was in your camp.
What
>is supposed to be accomplished by a dress code, exactly?

A dress code is the external expression of a corporate identity. It is
meant to create a sense of identity, and engender a feeling of unity &
solidarity.

In the best case, it is just the wrapping that overlays real underlying
unity that exists within an organisation or group. In its worst instance,
it is a superficial attempt to encorage conformity and unite a dispirate
bunch of people who wouldn't normally be seen dead together, while allowing
them to band together and laugh at other people who look different (think
of an inter-school sports fixture and you'll know what I mean). An
us-vs-them sort of thing.

At least, IMNSHO.  ;-)

I found it interesting when I went to the Joint Embassy School (later
Jakarta International School) in Indonesia. Based on the US system, it felt
more like a uni than a school - no dress code, for example. This meant that
everyone ended up wearing jeans and T-shirts, of course!!  ;-)  No dress
code? Don't make me laugh. People invent their _own_ dress codes, so they
don't appear different - or so that they do. What is "the Goth look" or the
"look" of the Trenchcoat Mafia but a form of dress code, adopted by the
members of a group to demonstrate their common bond?

ObTravRefs:

1.   Military uniforms ("You might be an idiot, but you are a MARINE, and
I'll be damned if we Marines will take crap from those S3 Scout buffoons in
the corner...");
2.   The Imperial fashion thread (Imperial AbFab: "Why daaaarling, is _that
what they're wearing on the Fringe these days? Why, that went out of
fashion in Core three years ago. You really should keep up with the
times...")
3.   Cultural clashes: Vargr garishness vs Vilani sleeve lengths, etc.
4.   Internal cultural differences, for example trying to spot whether that
Vargr you're dealing with is from the Rukh trade group, or Lair, or...
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:18:27 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: melee weapons

>Pretty well, I think. Characters with average or above average IQ have a
>bonus to their Guns skill (I think this would also apply to default use,
>but I won't swear to that) 

yes, it does.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:19:32 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Earth's Starport?

Silly Question time:

Just for fun, I've worked out Earth's Traveller UPP (UWP). Which
isn't actually that hard to do, especially since the first half of
it is right there in the Solomani Rim book.
Size = 8
Atmosphere = 6
Hydrographics = 7
Population = 9
Government = 7
Law Level = take your pick
Tech Level = 7 or 8

With what we have on the planet now, though -- today, 1999, what kind of
starport would we have? It has to be higher than X. A Class E starport is
basically an open flat space with a sign saying "Land Here", and we have
that. But do we have the kind of facilities that can justify being called
a Class D starport? (And if so, where?)

Thoughts?


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:21:21 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Station

In a message dated 99-04-28 21:34:51 EDT, you write:

<< I think it might be more than a few decades. What do you mean when 
 you say low acceleration? Say you get the comet up to 10% of the 
 speed of light. It will take a decade to get 1 light year in. He was 
 mentioning a 10 parsec rift. 32.6 light years. You would have 
 to get one of those comets to within, say, 3 parsecs of the other side 
 for a J3 ship to make it. That means the longest one will  be in place 
 in no shorter than 228 years, not counting acceleration and
 deceleration 
 once in place. No matter how you cut it, the time will still end up
 kind of 
 long term. >>

Here is how I'm planing on doing the mission
Task Forces:
TF1:
  Scoutships w/ escorts
TF2:
  Fuel ships, more fuel ship (and guess) even more fuel ships w/ escorts (and 
lots of supply ships)
TF3:
  Ships loaded with prefab "gas stations" w/ escorts

TF 1, 2, and 3 depart from base, after the first jump (2 psc) a gas station 
is built and ships carring its prefab turn back.

TF 1, 2, and 3 head twords closed star system, laying 1 gas station at the 
end of each jump prefab builders that "lay" a gas station turn back.  mean 
while imperial forces start resupplying the gas stations.

once a star system is found with a gas giant a fuel prosesing base is built 
and there is a place to build a base it is contructed and an imperial 
populashion is brought in to man it (this would be an Agri/Indurial/Starport 
base) the force resupplys and once resupplyed starts scouting everything 
(yes, I do mean everything, every hex), building gas stations as needed and 
other bases as needed.
What do you think?
- -Stephen
P.S. any thing can and will live here (tool using Raptors, aquaring worlds, 
ect).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:21:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [OT]Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

> 
> 
> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> 
> > Did they ever release a dubbed or subtitled version of 'The Potempkin'?
> 
> Yes.  Watched it in college.

I'm gonna have to check & see if my local Blockbusters has it...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:28:46 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT



>An acquaintance of mine in the police force thinks that this is because we
>get a lot of American TV, especially those 'live' cop shows, and we hear
>more crime stories from other places than we did before, so people are
>hearing about more crimes than ever. And if you hear more about it, the
>problem must be increasing, eh?
>
>It's a perception thing. Sorta like life.


Awareness of crime has increased greatly as well. Some things that are
crimes today just didn't get the press or were paid no attention to. To the
best of my knowledge, what are now illicit drugs were made illegal in the
1930s. As a result, there are no records of a real "drug problem" before
then. Organizations to protect kids from abusive parents and to follow up
these cases just *didn't* exist until the 40s, if my memory serves me well.
The way we view domestic abuse is completely different now than just 20
years ago or so. In certain areas of the country, racial hate crimes weren't
treated as crimes but as vigilante justice under the auspices of the law.
Many infant murders were written off as crib deaths.

Crime fighting techniques have gotten much better. Finger printing as a
method of identification was only accepted early this century. The FBI is
relatively young. Many more crimes went unsolved or even undetected before
people were able to take advantage of high speed communications. Forensic
medicine has come a very long way in the last 30 or 40 years. New techniques
have been compared and study. Some murders were written off as accidental
deaths due to the fact that the autopsy methods were very coarse and poor.

Awareness of child molestation (something that people in polite society
simply didn't talk about) has helped to convict many of these sick bastards.
I'm sure there are a thousand more examples.

The point is, we remember a time when there were few child molestors,
because cops didn't actively pursue child molestors. We remember a time when
parents didn't kill their children, because we didn't *know* that they had
killed them. We remember a time when less girls were raped because there was
a time they'd be spirited off to a convent, or taken out of school, or just
remained silent out of fear or shame. We remember a time that there was no
child or spousal abuse because there was a time that people approved of it
or simply ignored it. We remember a time when creepy serial killers didn't
prowl across the nation because we found bodies that no federal crime
organization could tie together into a unified whole.

Also, prior to a time when a federal organization got involved, there were
plenty of rich and influential people who most likely *literally* got away
with murder. Hell, it happened with Gacy to some extent, and that was just a
little while ago.

Janey just disappeared from town. What happened to her? Was she murdered
(the blue-haired old ladies all say, "Heavens no, not in this town!")? Did
she head off to New York or Hollywood (the blue-haired old ladies add, "She
*did* always like to sing and dance.")?

So, now, all these crimes seem *new* to us, because with increased awareness
it all seems so much worse than an earlier, simpler time.

Of course, a short media memory and a series of wars has helped to modify
our own memories a bit. You've got a major war, like World War II that skews
all kinds of statistics and our collective remembrance. Although I don't
have any real statistics to back up my argument, but I imagine that when
most of your young, aggressive males are off fighting the Nazi menace, your
crime rate's going to drop a bit. Then, the 50s came along, and there was a
sudden and disturbing increase in juvenile delinquincy (it was the
ultra-violent comic books!). That was quickly overshadowed when the 60s came
along and exploded. The baby boom generation had hit their teen years, and
crime rates soared... Imagine that.

So it goes.

ObTrav: What is crimefighting like in the Imperium? What kind of devices do
stellar police agencies use? Do they have InstaSleuth kits with tiny robots
that scour the place for evidence?

How about rehabilitation? Is it the current toss 'em in a cell with more
walls and more guards mentality? Is it the "Escape From  New York"
mentality, where you just put them somewhere far away and leave them to fend
for themselves? Is it more of a "Clockwork Orange" thing, in which advances
in psychology and pharmacology work wonders in lower recedivism <sp?> rates?
After all, Leary did some promising research into the use of psychoactive
drugs to create a sort of "religious awakening" in cons which show a marked
increase in their return trips to jail.

What is the state of crime in the Imperium? Are there Vargr mobsters? Are
Vilani mobsters like the yakuza? How about the Aslan, is there room for
crime in their rigid system of honor?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:30:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...

In a message dated 99-04-28 23:46:34 EDT, you write:

<< "Golf is an attempt to direct an uncontrollable sphere into an inaccessable
 hole with instruments ill-adapted for the purpose". >>

You to?:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:33:37 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

>>Ob Traveller:  It's a mark of good role-playing and immersion in the
>>milieu for players to ask when they arrive on a world, "what
>>transportation is available?" rather than, "we want to buy an
>>air/raft."
>
>    OBTraveller:  It is a mark of a good role-player & immersion in the
>milieu as well as the place for the characters to ask when they arrive on a
>world, "Where is the nearest bar?"

In most Traveller campaigns I've been in (running or just as a player),
the first place the characters head to when they dock at the starport is
the Starport Bar. It seems to be a universal in role-playing -- in fantasy
games, the characters always seem to wind up at the local inn. 

Next adventure I run where the characters are at a Class A starport on
a high-population, and they decide to split up with a "we'll meet in an
hour at the bar", I'll have each character wind up in a different bar.
The big starports would have more than one of them, right? :)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:30:35 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Earth's Starport?

cos 90 wrote:

> Silly Question time:
>
> Just for fun, I've worked out Earth's Traveller UPP (UWP). Which
> isn't actually that hard to do, especially since the first half of
> it is right there in the Solomani Rim book.
> Size = 8
> Atmosphere = 6
> Hydrographics = 7
> Population = 9
> Government = 7
> Law Level = take your pick
> Tech Level = 7 or 8
>
> With what we have on the planet now, though -- today, 1999, what kind of
> starport would we have? It has to be higher than X. A Class E starport is
> basically an open flat space with a sign saying "Land Here", and we have
> that. But do we have the kind of facilities that can justify being called
> a Class D starport? (And if so, where?)

Secret government projects?


>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>      Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
> cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
>         "There is no longer any normal to be"
>                                  -- Gary Numan

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:36:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: melee weapons

In a message dated 99-04-28 23:22:52 EDT, you write:

<< Also, even the smallest gun does more damage than a large knife wielded by
 a person of average strength.  
  >>

What about one of the Slaver Swords for Known Space?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:46:30 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

I just want to take this moment to say "Thanks" to the list.

Although much of the discussion has been off topic, dealing with the events
of late, many of the ObTravs have been kicking butt. My creative juices have
been flowing in a Trav direction more frequently lately as a result.

It's probably just me though. Perhaps it was just a general jadedness on my
part with the territory the list had been going over lately. As anyone who
read my stuff probably already knows, I'm much more interested in the
challenge of the interstellar version of Marilyn Manson than discussing
weapons technology and the like. If I can get some focus, expect to see more
on my site in the near future.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:52:44 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

In a message dated 99-04-28 22:53:00 EDT, you write:

<< I got it for a quarter as my game dealer was cleaning out his T4 stuff to
 make way for G:T. After looking it over I think it still was overpriced. :)
 
 Terry C >>

Were do you live that they'll sell stuff that cheep?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:51:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations 

> Keven Pittsinger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> IMTU, those big cheap fuel tanks wouldn't last for decades.  They're 
> throwaways if you go by the rules, not braced to hold pressure for more than a day or two.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> So have the tanker refilling the station drop off new tanks instead of
> fill up old ones. The tonnage will (due to the level of abstraction) be
> the same. <G>

Again, the tanks are fairly flimsy, at least that's what the price tag for 
them suggests to me.
  
> Keven again:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> Bill *also* mentioned 50 hardpoints stuffed with triple laser turrets.  That 
> would mean at *LEAST* a Power Plant-1 to cover them.  And a 5Kt hull means you *NEED* that Mod 8 to control it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> Oops, missed his mention of triple laser turrets. I don't think these would
> be a good idea on a non-mobile space station myself - you are so killable 
> that your only defense against an enemy is to appear helpless and useful.
> 
> Of course, this defense only works until the enemy (or your friends) 
> decide you're more useful to the other side than you are to them...

The lasers were for antimissile defense.
 
> Keven again:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > I think the computer requirements and bridge requirements for an immobile
> > space station should be lower than those for a warship, or even a 
> > commercial craft. Still, these things can get expensive.
> 
> Not by HG rules.  The station qualifies as a non-starship, and is thus covered by, and must conform to, the rules.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> The HG rules are specifically designed to create warships, and have
> some abstractions in them. 

They're specifically designed for *spaceships*.  Warships are just a subset of 
spaceships.  <grin>
 
> I think it's fine to have a 400dtn space station module keeping an eye
> on a couple thousand tons of immobile fuel tanks. YMMV.

It does.  No way I'd let a 400 ton station pack 50 turrets, or have those couple thousand tons worth of drop tanks just laying around.  IMTU, as I've said before, drop tanks are ok, they're just not very strong.  They won't last forever like a regular tank would.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:02:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Travellernomics 

> On 28 Apr, Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > A 5KT station is at *least* 500 MCr just for the *hull*.
> > Per HG, if it's a sphere, the hull price goes down to 350MCr.
> 
> There is a cheaper solution:
> 
> a small core base with the fuel in drop tanks. A 5KT drop tank is 5MCr.

But drop tanks aren't as *durable* as regular tanks.  Drop tanks are 
throwaways.  They're designed to be used and dropped, not used for years and 
years and years.

> Unfortunately, you're not supposed to put 50 laser turrets on it. ;-)

Nope.  AAMOF, I was looking through 'Adventure Class Ships Vol 1' when I 
bought it way back when 'in the days', and noticed an overgunned boat.  500 
tons, 5 packed turrets *AND* a missile bay.  Totally unkosher by the rules.
 
> Another benefit is that you only need a crew, bridge and such systems
> according to the mass of the core ship. The drop tanks are not included
> in the High Guard calculations.

Sure they are.  The Gazelle Close Escort is calc'ed out as a 400 ton boat with 100 tons of drop tanks.  Performance is calc'ed on that basis, and recalc'ed for when the drop tanks are jettisoned.  This per T&D.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:06:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations 

> On 28 Apr, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:
> > Keven Pittsinger wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > IMTU, those big cheap fuel tanks wouldn't last for decades.  They're 
> > throwaways if you go by the rules, not braced to hold pressure for
> > more than a day or two.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > So have the tanker refilling the station drop off new tanks instead of
> > fill up old ones. The tonnage will (due to the level of abstraction) be
> > the same. <G>
> 
> Those "disposable tanks" are only disposed of if someone activates
> the explosive bolts. It is perfectly possible to perform a successful
> jump with one attached.

The Gazelles did this.  But IMTU, & IMNSFBHO, the drop tanks are *fragile* compared to a starship hull.  IMTU, a Gazelle needs to replace its drop tankage at least every year, unless they get the 10 MCr long-duration tank set that's built to regular starship specs.  <grin>  Basically, I just calc'ed the upgraded tanks like they were a regular ship hull.  They're still jettisonable, but at 10 MCr a pop, it's not likely they'll be ditched unless the boat was in a *big* hurry and needed that extra parsec of jump range.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:07:52 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

> In a message dated 4/28/99 6:12:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> jamstar@earthlink.net writes:
> 
> << Did they ever release a dubbed or subtitled version of 'The Potempkin'? >>
> 
> I saw a subtitled copy of Eisenstein's Battleship Potempkin in college. Great 
> movie. It was the best propaganda I ever saw. I wanted the kill the Zarists 
> with my bare hands by the end of the movie...

'Czarist'.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:16:41 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: General Hooker and his friends

>I have never seen a Traveller deckplan with recreational facilities
>sufficient to its crew.  If any former RL naval veterans can shed some light
>what shipboard recreation facilities are normally present, it would be
>appreciated.


Oliver Hazzard Perry FFG-7 Class Frigate:
	Mess Deck (20-30 feet)
	3 Crews Lounges (about 10-15 feet on each side)
	Chiefs Lounge (smaller)
	Wardroom (about the size two crew lounges, they officers also eat here)
	some exercise equipment squeezed in.
	I think it was 300 movies for closed circuit TV
	A ships store the size of a closet
	Seabag locker

Nimitz Class Carrier
	Forward and Aft Messdecks, with a First Class lounge in a walled
off part of the aft mess decks.
	A chiefs area
	I think 3 Officer Areas + I think the Captain and Admiral both had
their own areas, the Admiral had a area the size of a small house, complete
with a kitchen (downright obscene in size)!
	Chapel
	Library (gee for a crew of 5000 you'd think they'd have decent
library right?  It SUCKED!!!  The area with books was about 15x15'  I've a
better selection, and probably more books!  Needless to say, I had a locker
full of books.)
	A couple exercise areas
	The Aft Messdecks also had several Video Arcade Machines at about
$0.25, two junk food machines, and some Pop machines.
	CNN & one other news channel (Live), a Movie and a TV channel (taped)
	Two ships stores, but only 6 people allowed in at a time.

The thing that sucked the most about being in the Navy on a ship was the
lack of personal space.  I had a tiny standup locker, about 8 inches wide,
and a yard high, and another locker under my rack that was 6-8 inches deep.
If you were lucky you had someplace to keep your sea bag, the Carrier
didn't have a seabag locker.

I actually got a laptop in 1987 so I could have my own computer onboard
ship, now I believe personnel computers are no longer allowed.  A Gameboy
was a great thing.  Some people had Sega's or SuperNintendo's.  Cards and
Domino's are very popular, and a few other games can very occasionally be
seen on the mess decks.

The Frigate was great for hitting a port, most the only time we didn't pull
up to a dock was when there wasn't room.  On the Carrier, we only saw one
port in 3 years that we could pull into besides home port (we pulled in
there once each of the two cruises).  It is really a pain having to wait
for a liberty boat, espeically when you have to be back on board before the
end of liberty.  On a Carrier it can take hours of waiting in line just to
get off of the ship (of course in port you can wait over an hour in line to
eat).  If the water was to rough the liberty boats couldn't run, I missed
my trip to London thanks to that, never was able to get off of the ship
that day!

Mail Call on either was an amazing sight with the pile of mail taking up a
sizable chunk of a hanger on either ship.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #525
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 29 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 526



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 
Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power
Re: CT character gen programs
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT:Gazebo
Re: Surface based Black Globes
"Modern" espionage scenario (was Re: Heavy sigh )
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia   
Re: Two questions
Re: GT shirt (was: Patches)
Re: General Hooker and his friends 
Re: Earth's Starport? 
Re: Travellernomics 
Re: "Modern" espionage scenario (was Re: Heavy sigh ) 
Re: Silly adventure idea
Re:Drop Tanks
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
Re: [Entropic Worlds] What do you need from me?
Re: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics) 
Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...
low tech weapons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:19:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

> It's probably just me though. Perhaps it was just a general jadedness on my
> part with the territory the list had been going over lately. As anyone who
> read my stuff probably already knows, I'm much more interested in the
> challenge of the interstellar version of Marilyn Manson than discussing
> weapons technology and the like. If I can get some focus, expect to see more
> on my site in the near future.

You ever see John M. Ford's 'Road Show', one of the wilder Amber Zones, first published in JTAS #23?  The characters become roadies for an amp rock band named Veedback for a one-year concert tour.  *EVERYBODY* (rabid fans, rock-hating vigilanties, ticket scalpers, video pirates, *pirate* pirates bent on kidnapping them for ransom) is going to be after the characters.  Veedback has the highes LRI ('Lost Roadies Index') of any band on the Rim concert circuit.  <grin>  Makes a long ticket on a Tech 6 swamp world look like prom night at East Tulare High.  <grin>  As John mentioned, rock and roll *NEVER* forgets!!!!!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:45:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 

> > >Ob Trav: What _will_ troops do to kill week in Jump? Especially Ground
> > >Pounders with limited capability to train?
> > 
> > Well, the deck can never be shiny enough for the First Sergeant...
> > 
> > In reality, play cards, listen to tunes, and maintain equipment.  I
> imagine
> > that the NCOs will plan a level of activity to keep troops from going
> stir
> > crazy.
> 
> I imagine you could rig the battledress suits as pretty effective combat
> simulators.  Tell the computer to have everyone run in place instead of
> actually moving and use the suit systems to display sim data.  Could be
> really funny to watch, seeing ranks of battlesuited troops dive to the deck
> for no apparent reason, but it could also be very effective.
> 
> The next step is to start practicing your close quarters skills in the
> corridors, which I understand real Marines do actually do from time to
> time.

One would think that 'Marine Country' would also have gyms that break down for 
easy storage, but that still doesn't stop the problem of having trained 
killers sitting around going stir crazy.  The Foreign Legion used to call this 
'le cafard', 'the bug', and claimed it killed more troops than combat.  I'd 
say, and this is just a WAG, that the Imperium's Marines were tranked a bit to 
keep their aggression under wraps until absolutely needed, then given the 
antidote just before getting packed into the assault capsuals for their drop.  
Just my opinion...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:53:23 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514

In a message dated 99-04-28 22:05:12 EDT, you write:

<< Does anyone actually at any point find a use for low-tech weapons? I don't
 mean swords, or a particular "novelty" item (such as a crossbow for stealthy
 assassins).
  >>

What if there was a microb that eat super conducters for dinner?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:01:10 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power

>>For a start, it's not the jump drive that creates power from hydrogen.
>>because it's already been shown that the jump drive can take power from
>>_any_ ultra-high current source to power it, such as a black globe's
>>capacitors.

>This is much less of a problem. As long as jump drives dont turn hydrogen
>into energy, Ditzie wont whine about not being allowed to use them to power
>Very Very Big Guns, and those people down at Maaaarketing wont ask why they
>cant run Rhylanor's entire planetary power grid (for which 3*10^21 MW could
>suffice) off a type A's jump drive.

Although....  one would expect to be able to run a modern (TL8) small city
off the normal power plant of a couple of commercial starships. Emergency
power for New Zealand's capital city, Wellington, in the event of a major
earthquake is planned to be provided by a pair of old frigates.

<snip>
>>This implies a very high current "switch" of some sort needs to be thrown
>>when you're ready to jump.
>>
>>That switch, because of the amount of power involved, needs to go from
open
>>circuit to closed in as short a time as possible, because for the duration
>>of the switching it will be soaking that entire potential diffference.
>>Taking that further, _unless_ you are going to discharge all that power in
>>one go, you need something capable of regulating the current equivalent of
>>your 3*10^21 MJ
>
>If this is true, then this technologies should be able to be applied to
>capacitors for other high energy applications.

Definitely. Black globe capacitors are the obvious application, though it
could be the other way round, in that maybe the capacitors used in drop
tanks were derived from those found attached to the artifact black globes.

>>But even that could be eliminated merely by stating that no-one's been
able
>>to build a weapon (so far) tthat can use all that power without slagging,
>>and the only reason the jump drive can handle the power is that it no
longer
>>exists in real space at the instant it activates and takes all the
>>power.....
>
>Please dont say that 'No-one's ever built a weapon that can use all that
>power' around Ditzie :) Do we still have that Lab Ship design floating
>around ? Ditzie is wondering if Maaaarketing would think if there would be
>a market for an armed version ...

The problem, as I see it, is finding materiels or force field technology
capable of using and focusing all that energy, which (based on the premise)
is enough energy to rip space-time itself,  so it's going to be difficult to
find that technology.

However,  I suspect that if it's possible, gravity lenses and such would be
involved. Heck, they may even be involved in the jump drive usage itself.




<snip>
>>>(1) Compare for example the boring mundanity of the description of the
>>>Seven Mothers in 'Gods of Prax' with the sublimity of the far more modern
>>>'Pelorian Rhapsody'.
>>
>>"Gods of Prax" ?
>>Is that an Avalon Hill thing ?
>>:-)
>
>Gods of Prax ? Cults of Prax :)

Thought so.  But yes, I agree the stuff on the Lunar Empire in TOTRM and
similar publications are much better.

>Y'know, I've been having these strange dreams lately ...
>something about this bloke called Ar-something.

Ar-Pharazon ?
:-)

You know, I'm getting worried about this, I've already ended up discussing
Glorantha on alt.games.whitewolf (as an Umbral realm Mage characters could
visit). At the time I made some off hand comment about a  Void Engineer Qui
LA  Machinae meeting a Vilani merchant, and now I'm discussing RQ on the
TML.

We'll have to be careful or we'll be told off being OT.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 02:04:46 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

In a message dated 99-04-28 21:14:39 EDT, you write:

<< I'm still working on my Advanced Chargen for all T4/5
 careers, from time to time.  Yes, even Entertainer.  ;-) >>

Would you mind posting what you have?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:11:23 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

Frank G. Pitt wrote:

> >> Probably wear Ine Gevar (sp?) t-shirts while at said rallies too.
> >
> > This kind of attitude is why I have an obligatory "club the hippies"
> >scene in everyone of my adventures.
>
> Is that before or after the "club the baby fur seals" scene ?

During?

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 02:10:07 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT:Gazebo

In a message dated 99-04-28 21:08:33 EDT, you write:

<< Some time ago I read a story about a AD&D game in which the GM had told the
 players they saw a gazebo.  One of the players didn't know what it was and
 attacked it thinking it was some sort of monster.  I saw the story on a BBS 
in
 Dallas Tx several years ago and I am hoping to find again.  if any of you 
know of
 it or have a copy of it I would like to have it. >>

An exsample of someone who needs to out.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:05:55 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Surface based Black Globes

>>Anybody care to figure how long it takes an
>>Earth-like atmosphere to begin cooling without
>>*any* solar energy being received by the planet?
>>The thermal effects, I believe, are as if the planet
>>was instantly dropped into intergalactic space,
>>thermally speaking.
>
>Canon black globes don't radiate heat either so the temperature would be as
>it was the black globe turn-on: in equilibrium.
>
>The problem is that all life relies on entropy for its sustenance so the
>plants cannot use IR to grow and thus in the long run the world might have
>a problem.

This thread reminds me of the old Superman series.
Supergirl (Kara ?) came from a part of Krypton that floated off into space
with an enrgy shield round it. It was transparent, not black, but still..

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:04:47 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: "Modern" espionage scenario (was Re: Heavy sigh )

>Setting off a pair of bombs attached to such tanks would have done a
>damn good job of *leveling* the school. Why they didn't go off, I don't
>know. But the bomb count in the school keeps going up.

This brings up a scenario hook I came up with for the Littleton situation,
which AFAIK fits all the released facts.

Firstly I apologize if this is considered insensitive, if you don't like
game discussion of recent news events that resulted in deaths please don't
read any more.

The set-up :

Several news reports stated the foloowing "facts" on the case :

1. The bomb disposal squad was amazed at the number and sophistication of
the bombs.  Speculation was that they had help,, because of the number and
positions of the bombs, and the fact that some of the designs had not been
seen before by the bomb squad members

2. Everyone is surprised the bombs didn't go off

3. Everyone is surprised that so few people got killed given the amount of
weaponry the pair were supposedly carrying.

4. There were large numbers of weapons and shells lying around, and some of
those were "sophisticated" military weapons.


Now, here's  what _really_ happened at Lyttleton :

The pair were encouraged to carry out the killings by an as yet undiscovered
colleague or colleagues (And ones who never _will be discovered now).  These
colleagues were in fact  agents in the employ of an enemy of the American
state. ( Take your pick, Slobodan Milosovich, Saddam Hussein, Loius
Farrakhan, Patricia Pulling... ) It was these people that set the
sophisticated bombs, sneaking in the back while the pair of dupes made all
the noise out front.

However, a black-ops counter-intelligence unit, ( "Yellow Rain" perhaps ? )
were aware of the plot. Unfortunately, they didn't get the go-ahead for an
internal wet operation until the attack had started. (in fact you can hear
the comms chartter now : "Damn it, Control, the hostile operation is go
_now_ ! We need that clearance _immediately_ before, _more_ people get
killed ! ")

So, after the terrorists were in the building, the unit gets the go ahead,
but are told the whole operation must be completely deniable and covert.
(It's too late for good press coverage, and Control doesn't want it known it
was their slow decision making that caused the deaths )

The terrorists are all killed quickly, and the two kids are executed in the
library before they are able to detonate any bombs or get all their targets,
any timers are professionaly disarmed, and the agent(s)  are taken for
interrogation, the wet squad slipping out of the area before the first SWAT
or police unit arrives, leaving any weapons they had actually fired, so that
the shell casings would match.

The characters get to investigate the incident because of "anomalies" in the
official reports. Blood stains in places where bodies weren't, several
unexplaind reports from students seeing "SWAT" officers in the building
before they actually arrived, and the stuff mentioned above, along with
anything else the wet squad couldn't cover up in the couple of minutes they
had between completing the operation and having to get out.

If you want to make it really obvious, make one of the SWAT team members
shown on TV unidentifiable by local officials.....a team member who stayed
behind because he was seen by students, and felt his best bet was to act as
if he was suposed to be there....

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:16:16 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia   

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>


> Naw, for the field, I'd just take a book.  Always.  It became legendary
> that no matter where we were, I'd have a book somewhere on my person.
>
> So where exactly did you put the book when you had the .32 in your simming trunks?
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 03:22:35 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two questions

> Rebellion Sourcebook (IIRC) mentions that Dulinor's brother was some honcho
> Admiral of the Illelish fleet.  While this may have been arranged as part
> of Dulinor's plot, it may also suggest a situation where the civil and
> military authorities are sometimes both controlled by the same noble
> families.

Admiral Hutara IIRC.  In the "real" universe, he declares for Dulinor 
following his return for Capital and brings the Ilelish fleet w/ him.  In G:T 
he got "retired" after someone played around w/ his head, apparently.  
Ilelish should be on the verge of exploding anyways, though it'll be very 
interesting to see what developments occur in G:T.
 
> In this case, it would be plausible for Arbellatra to be a relative, or
> heir, of the Sector Duke of the Marches, or one of the other major Dukes. 
> This suggests, incidentally, an Alkhalikoi (sp?) connection to the Marches,
> or at least Deneb, which may still exist.

There definately is.  The Regency Sourcebook library data mentions how 
Arbellatra appointed the first Duke of Regina (an Aledon) in 629, the day 
following her own coronation as Empress.  Strephon and Norris share a middle 
name, too. 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 03:22:33 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT shirt (was: Patches)

> > >Any chance of seeing pictures on the website?
> 
> The design can be seen in the Daily Illuminator for 25 March:
> 
> http://www.sjgames.com/ill/1999/ill-mar99.html
> 
> You have to page down a bit to get to it.

There's also a pic linked from the "main" GT web page, which should be 
easier.  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:35:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: General Hooker and his friends 

> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
> | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> |     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
> |                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
> |               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

Zane, I keep getting an Error 404 for this page.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 03:38:48 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Earth's Starport? 

> Just for fun, I've worked out Earth's Traveller UPP (UWP). Which
> isn't actually that hard to do, especially since the first half of
> it is right there in the Solomani Rim book.

GDW did it in the main TNE book and Survival Margin (~93), on the credits 
page.  They give a UWP of G867975-8.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 03:38:49 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Travellernomics 

I would definatley say to get Far Trader.  Your FLGS doesn't have it?  Order 
it.  It's excellent and easily stretchable to other Milieus (which is what I 
most like.  am so/so bout the rest of G:T so far.  Yeah, BtC is nice, but 
it's pretty much useless to my New Era Reformation Coalition campaigning).  
I'm busily preparing to get WTNs for all of Coalition Space and the Area of 
Operations (and other areas).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 03:39:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: "Modern" espionage scenario (was Re: Heavy sigh ) 

> Firstly I apologize if this is considered insensitive, if you don't like
> game discussion of recent news events that resulted in deaths please don't
> read any more.
> 
> The set-up :
> 
> Several news reports stated the foloowing "facts" on the case :
> 
> 1. The bomb disposal squad was amazed at the number and sophistication of
> the bombs.  Speculation was that they had help,, because of the number and
> positions of the bombs, and the fact that some of the designs had not been
> seen before by the bomb squad members

That's not hard to explain.  When a professional looks at a bomb made by a 
cunning amatuer, there's *bound* to be some design 'gotchas' that they haddn't 
run into before.  There are *LOTS* of ways to build bombs.
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:29:05 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

>There's T. Rex on Tau Ceti II!!

Di - no - saurs In Space !


Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:54:39 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re:Drop Tanks

Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote


> This suggests that "timing problems" of mere nano-seconds between activating
> the power feed switch and the jump unit could cause a huge secondary
> discharge into surrounding equipment resulting in catastrophic system
> damage. (i.e: the ship blows up )
>
Perhaps this is why gravity wells cause misjumps - the external gravity gradient
(the tide) acting on the ship causes variations is the transmission of the "Enter
jump space" signal going through the ship.  Of course this theory would suggest
that larger (i.e. more massive) ships would be more vulnerable to misjumps, which
is not supported by past canon, but which might explain the ubiquitous nature of
the 100 ton Scout ship.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:11:46 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514

- -----Original Message-----
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, 29 April 1999 8:00
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514



>
>You are, of course right, in that the purpose of a gun is to kill.
>However, it's proper purpose is to kill in self defense, not in murder.
>Just like a car used as a murder weapon is an otherwise legal object being
>used in an illegal fashion, so IMHO is a perfectly legitimate gun being
>used in an illegal way.  It's that use of the gun that should (and is) be
>illegal, not the gun itself.
>
>
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>

I do hate this thread, but... "However, it's proper purpose is to kill in
self defence...?"

The history books I had read (and the basic history taught during training)
told me that firearms were designed to destroy (the larger bombards,
artillery, etc.) and to kill and to maim (hand guns; nowdays to include
support weapons I suppose?).  They were not developed for hunting, they were
developed to kill and maim a country's enemies, to inflict greater losses
upon that enemy than he can inflict upon you.  To give you the edge over
your enemy.  They were adopted because they were easier to use than bow and
melee weapons, requiring less training.  The object of a firearm is not so
much to make one equal, but to make one greater than one's enemy (otherwise
all MBT's would have the same armaments and armour if everyone really wanted
to be "equal?").

I am also pretty sure of this, that if I was some scumbag
mugging/raping/etc. someone while I was in possession of a fire arm, the
moment they reached for anything other than cash, wallet, watch, whatever,
as that gun they had hidden is coming up, my gun that is ready to use and
pointing at my victim, would be having the trigger squeezed about then -- as
an ex-assault troopie (QMI), I know how quickly one can squeeze off a round
when prepared, compared to one reading for a (snap)shot... add to that the
various emotions that can make you react without thinking (fear, anxiety and
the like) -- "I didn't want to kill him, why did he draw a gun for?"

And no, I am not anti-gun, but I am "anti-arming-idiots-freely-with-guns,"
but one man's idiot is another man's good friend... so how can it be done?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 05:59:58 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Entropic Worlds] What do you need from me?

I am sharing this with others who may have a similar question....


In a message dated 4/28/99 5:53:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dmoran@io.com 
writes:

<< I'm quite eager to start playing the Sword Worlds (Edited as a courtesy to 
our Darrian players), but I'm a bit at a loss as to what exactly you need 
from me. I
 *think* you need several GURPS Traveller characters, with perhaps some
 Pocket Empires stats on the Sword Worlds?
 
 Please let me know so I can generate characters as needed.
 
 Dan
  >>
That's for the email Dan, yes - characters is exactly what I need from you. I 
will be generating initial situation reports (sitreps) for each of the 
factions/player groups this weekend. But the presence of identified 
characters will facilitate that greatly. I would like to have at least one, 
and possibly as many as three to six. I realistically do not see players 
effectively using more than three give or take a couple based on past 
experience with Star Trek pbems using this same format. (My experience using 
this format is both as a player and referee. Someone else pioneered it.) 

I would be very interested in player perceptions of their chosen agency or 
faction. I am using GURPS' Behind the Claw as the primary reference source, 
then Universal World Profiles from MegaTraveller's Encyclopedia as well as 
the stats provided at the 
<A HREF="http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/">CORE</A> website. I am using as 
my descriptions of the actual political enities, the Classic Traveller Alien 
books (I have them all). However I intend to purchase all the GURPS Traveller 
materials I am so enthusiastic about what they are doing with the Traveller 
Universe. If you have Pocket Empires or Imperial Squadrons feel free to help 
with the research of your faction. I am very liberal with interpretation of 
data provided there is sufficient data to back any claims. However, as 
referee I insist on final approval before introduction in to the play 
environment to ensure fairness and overall playability of the campaign. But 
by all means if you want to assit in the research have at it! In the Star 
Trek pbems that I mentioned earlier, most of my enjoyment as a player was 
from the research and the writing of GURPS' rules for the campaign....we 
started freeform but it became apparent to me we needed structure. Actually 
this is where my love of the GURPS system evolved. 

But the first step is identifying for me "who" your agents of influence are 
to be. Actual character construction is not as important as identification at 
this point. If you are pressed for time or simply want to see more before you 
invest time please email me with names, positions, and locations (world 
location as a minimum) for your initial character(s). 

I am using the shareware programs (predominately Mr. Bont's from his Felix 
website  
<A HREF="http://209.39.36.25/gurps/">The FELIX GURPS Page</A>) in direct 
support of this game. You can attach email files with your characters or 
transcribed copies in the email, using the GURPS CHARACTER ASSIST (GCA) or 
GURPS CHARACTER MAKER (GCM) programs. I am also using the 101 Starships, 101 
Vehicles, etc., from the  
<A HREF="http://www.bits.org.uk/">BITS (British Isles Traveller Support) 
Homepages
</A> page also. I am generating the maps using Mr. Bont's Astrogator program 
(from the FELIX GURPS page) and as stated earlier, the UWP data is being 
taken from the MegaTraveller era and is featured on at the  
<A HREF="http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/">CORE</A>  page. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:07:49 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics) 

At 16:29 28/04/1999 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Bill *also* mentioned 50 hardpoints stuffed with triple laser turrets.  That 
>would mean at *LEAST* a Power Plant-1 to cover them.  And a 5Kt hull means
you 
>*NEED* that Mod 8 to control it.

Not a Mod 8.

you should be able to use more like a mod 4 or 5 for 5Kt (don't have The
Book to hand).

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:14:10 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Market it right and it's not smuggling...

At 17:55 27/04/1999 -0400, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>Juliean Galak wrote:

>> According to one Martial Artist I've spoken to, the greatest melee weapon
>> of the 20th Century is a golf club with a strong/reinforced handle.... It's
>> light and has good reach, and is balanced in such a way that you can do a
>> great deal of damage with the head.  A low iron is probably best... :)
>
>I wouldn't go below a 2 Iron.  Its impossible to hit anything with
>a 1 Iron.

The pros would probably favour the 1 iron for the combination of
striking power and controlability.
Amateurs tend towards medium irons which are shorter and more
controlable, unless they feel the need for reach, when they
swing wildly with a wood.

I would suspect the same applies on the golf course.

;-)

Phil Kitching

PS
is that advanced laminates for the shaft and bonded superdense for
the head?
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:50:02 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: low tech weapons

>Religious? I heard once that the Catholic Church had a dislike for black
>powder weapons (they thought the bullets were guided by devils). I also
>heard  that they had some distaste for rifled guns when they came along,
>since it was said that the noise of a ricochet was actually the voice of a
>demon.

It wasn't religious, it was maintain-your-powerbase.  The Catholic Church 
didn't like black powder weapons for the same reason they had earlier 
fought against crossbows.  

It removed power from the landed & titled Nobles who had armor that
previous protected them weapons peasents use in attempts to stop the nobles
from taking their daughters for a bit of R&R.

OB-Trav:  You can get the peasents to give you a bunch of useless-to-them
stuff for a case of modern rifles.




- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Practice random acts of intelligence & senseless acts of self-control.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #526
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 29 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 527



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 
A good one for Murphy's Rules
Re: Copyright
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #520
Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power
re: Fuel Stations
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
OT: Golf (was re: Market it right and it's not smuggling)
re: Fuel Stations
Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power
Re: 
Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs
MT Interrupts
Discarding Sabot
Re: Earth's Starport?
Re: melee weapons
Hull armor screwups
Re: MT Interrupts
Re: Discarding Sabot
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
'Alien' plant life on Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:01:51 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 

At 01:45 29/04/1999 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>> > >Ob Trav: What _will_ troops do to kill week in Jump? Especially Ground
>> > >Pounders with limited capability to train?
>> > 
>> > Well, the deck can never be shiny enough for the First Sergeant...
>> > 
>> > In reality, play cards, listen to tunes, and maintain equipment.  I
>> imagine
>> > that the NCOs will plan a level of activity to keep troops from going
>> stir
>> > crazy.
>> 
>> I imagine you could rig the battledress suits as pretty effective combat
>> simulators.  Tell the computer to have everyone run in place instead of
>> actually moving and use the suit systems to display sim data.  Could be
>> really funny to watch, seeing ranks of battlesuited troops dive to the deck
>> for no apparent reason, but it could also be very effective.
>> 
>> The next step is to start practicing your close quarters skills in the
>> corridors, which I understand real Marines do actually do from time to
>> time.
>
>One would think that 'Marine Country' would also have gyms that break down
for 
>easy storage, but that still doesn't stop the problem of having trained 
>killers sitting around going stir crazy.  The Foreign Legion used to call
this 
>'le cafard', 'the bug', and claimed it killed more troops than combat.  I'd 
>say, and this is just a WAG, that the Imperium's Marines were tranked a
bit to 
>keep their aggression under wraps until absolutely needed, then given the 
>antidote just before getting packed into the assault capsuals for their
drop.  
>Just my opinion...

One possibility is to move the Marine in Low Berths if they're not expecting
to do anything.

Unfortunately, Char Gen dose not seem to support this
(ave 3, max 13 weeks/term)
Oddly enough, a Navy character gets up to 24 weeks per term (ave 6.7).
Since most Navy characters are actively doing something on a ship,
this is presumably the Frozen Watch.

(figures from T4.1 draft)

(A "fun" thing to roll in your Navy character's advanced character
 generation - spend a year as a popsicle - no promotion, no skill. :-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:04:30 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: A good one for Murphy's Rules

Tom Schoene types:
>Also, even the smallest gun does more damage than a large knife wielded by
>a person of average strength.  

   Any game systems that implements this false statement deserves a spot in
Murphy's Rules.
Take your pick. A shot through the thigh with a .22 short or let Joe
Generio take a swing with a Kuri.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Practice random acts of intelligence & senseless acts of self-control.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:10:01 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Copyright

G'day all,

On 28/4/99, Steve Daniels wrote :

>As far as the scenario above goes, more likely IMO is outright
>industrial espionage and sabotage.  Although, for a truly significant
>item, worthy of an Imperial patent, and making a big step to the
>next TL, the litigation may be allowed to proceed.

One assumes it would be entirely possible to copyright an item (or idea) on
one world, then attempt to do so on an expanding ring of worlds.  That is,
take the idea from world to world copyrighting it (depending upon the local
legislation for such things).  This would come under the auspices of the
local legal people for that company.  A communique from the head of R&D
(Rhylanor) to R&D (Regina) of Megacorp X directs him/her/it to patent an
item post-haste, for instance.

This could lead to the some interesting developments as people register
business names and/or patents in the hope that the owner of that
concept/name on another world will then come in and spend a bundle buying
the right to use the name.

"Whaddaya mean I can't call it Astroburger ?  It's called that everywhere
else !!"

Dave H

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:10:06 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #520

G'day all,

On 28/4/99, Douglas Glatz spake thusly :

>While in game terms, maintenance isnot really covered (and from what I've
seen of >civilian freighters, it may indeed be restricted to a yearly
overhaul) ...

I always figured that it was part of the engineers' job to carry out
routine maintenance stuff.  On larger vessels, there would be sufficient
crew to allot crew speifically to maintenance.

Dave H

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:28:45 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power

At 00:01 29/04/1999 +0100, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

>>>Taking that further, _unless_ you are going to discharge all that
>>>power in one go, you need something capable of regulating the
>>>current equivalent of your 3*10^21 MJ
>>
>>If this is true, then this technologies should be able to be applied
>>to capacitors for other high energy applications.
>
>ah, but the capacitor banks for the jump drive use Zuchai crystals, as
>nothing else can hold such an amount of energy and release it
>correctly.  To discourage use of such crystals for weapon capacitors
>is to handwave that after discharging they require about a week for
>the crystal structure to re-align before being capable of charging up
>again.  So *maybe* one big shot a week *if* the rest of the weapon can
>handle the power surge.....
>
You'd also have to handwave why I cannot have lots of small crystals
and discharge one at a time instead of all at once.

Them problem is not drop tanks, but the drop tank description that
says you transfer all the fuel, discard them and then jump.

Dropping them during jump transition would work, since you could
handwave that the capacitors just conduct the energy into jumpspace.
It also saves having to try to explain why you can't use a tanker with
a pipe or how the explosive bolts shred a fuel tank into unusable
fragments.

It's the delay I don't like.

On the Tech Level issue, I can accept that they are TL16
(or experimental TL15 in the same way as black globes).
Alternatively, I could accept that they are TL9.
(As *ALL* the ship design rules imply.)
What I find difficult to accept is that they are TL9 but not found
until someone does TL16 research.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:39:08 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fuel Stations

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
> So have the tanker refilling the station drop off new tanks instead of
> fill up old ones. The tonnage will (due to the level of abstraction) be
> the same. <G>

Those "disposable tanks" are only disposed of if someone activates
the explosive bolts. It is perfectly possible to perform a successful
jump with one attached.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Certainly. I was just responding to Keven's assertion that cheapie fuel
tanks parked by a small fuel station would wear out over time.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:49:02 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514

At 10:00 PM 4/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Juliean Galak said:
>
>>You are, of course right, in that the purpose of a gun is to kill.
>>However, it's proper purpose is to kill in self defense, not in murder.
>>Just like a car used as a murder weapon is an otherwise legal object being
>>used in an illegal fashion, so IMHO is a perfectly legitimate gun being
>>used in an illegal way.  It's that use of the gun that should (and is) be
>>illegal, not the gun itself.
>
>
>I in no way mean to enter into the gun debate on any level. However, I was
>under the impression that the firearm was invented with offensive intent,
>and later adapted to more mundane uses such as hunting. My basic point is,
>the early innovators in firearm design weren't designing weapons for
>self-defense. In fact, the early handcannons and matchlocks were huge and
>very unwieldy, which I would think would make them impractical in a
>self-defense role...
>

Actually it was self defense...against armored opponets.  Guns in europe
were developed to defeat body armor, Knights in plate mail.  So was the
first crossbows.  A good suit of armor made the wearer very hard to kill
with muscle powered weapons.  I got this take on the developement of guns
from a book on midevil history.  It has some very interesting points on the
developement of weapon and armor in responce to other weapon and armor.  It
seem the 'arms race' has been going on for a lot longer than most of us
think.  By the way the gun brought about the time of the musketeers.  With
armor no longer a garentee of safety people stoped wearing it prefering
speed.  With out armor heavy weapon were no longer needed and the days of
pistol and fencing sword came to be.

OB Traveller:  What would be the effect of the invention of a hand gun sized
weapon that could defeat any battledress?  How about a 'force sword' that
could carve battledress like butter?  What would it be like to live in that
brief time of transition?

>With that being said, I have an honest Traveller related question for the
>list:
>
>ObTrav:
>
>Does anyone actually at any point find a use for low-tech weapons? I don't
>mean swords, or a particular "novelty" item (such as a crossbow for stealthy
>assassins).
>
>With the wide variety of tech-levels, it seems to make sense to put in
>muskets and the like, but is there a real need for them? I can imagine some
>uses that I may incorporate in the future:
>
>A world in which the only allowable weapons are ammo-light repeaters (such
>as revolvers). The focus for shooters on the planet is a high degree of
>accuracy and very careful shooting. In fact, in a G:T game a shootout might
>be resolved with the Old West rules from Compendium II.
>
>A world in which the only legal weapons are matchlock dueling pistols. The
>weapons are amazingly expensive to maintain, and not terribly effective.
>Disputes are often settled by duelling.
>

Several of the old traveller adventures deal with worlds with weapons
limitation the the PC have to deal with.  It once worked in favor of a
character on mine with blade-3.  Ha!  There was also a world that only
allowed duel pistols.  They had a very high law level but allowed dueling.
Very scary place.  You could get into a duel for almost anything.  We got
out quick!  Those people were wound to tight!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:02:45 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: OT: Golf (was re: Market it right and it's not smuggling)

david jacques-watson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I wouldn't go below a 2 Iron.  Its impossible to hit anything with
>a 1 Iron.

Choked on my lunch and had to explain to my work section...!! (one golfer
agrees, BTW!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What kind of club do you use in a thunderstorm?

A 1-iron. Not even *God* can hit a 1-iron.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:19:50 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fuel Stations

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Oops, missed his mention of triple laser turrets. I don't think these would
> be a good idea on a non-mobile space station myself - you are so killable 
> that your only defense against an enemy is to appear helpless and useful.
> 
> Of course, this defense only works until the enemy (or your friends) 
> decide you're more useful to the other side than you are to them...

The lasers were for antimissile defense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Anti-missile lasers are pretty much irrelevant if you can't move. An enemy
can accelerate outside your effective range and just toss gravel at you.

Or a nice, solid nickel-iron asteroid.

Keven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The HG rules are specifically designed to create warships, and have
> some abstractions in them. 

They're specifically designed for *spaceships*.  Warships are just a subset of spaceships.  <grin>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A subset with some very specific needs you won't find on a commercial
vessel. 

No matter. You can cheap out the gas station with my small station
module idea. Still costly, though.
 
Keven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
> I think it's fine to have a 400dtn space station module keeping an eye
> on a couple thousand tons of immobile fuel tanks. YMMV.

It does.  No way I'd let a 400 ton station pack 50 turrets, or have those couple thousand tons worth of drop tanks just laying around.  IMTU, as I've said before, drop tanks are ok, they're just not very strong.  They won't last forever like a regular tank would.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I wouldn't put 50 turrets on a 400dtn station either. Maybe one or two,
to keep the random floating space debris away.

Tether the tanks together. So what if they need to be replaced every
couple of months? You've got tankers coming in regularly, refurbishing
tanks will be the least of your expenses.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:25:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power

Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Definitely. Black globe capacitors are the obvious application, though it
could be the other way round, in that maybe the capacitors used in drop
tanks were derived from those found attached to the artifact black globes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now *this* is a fascinating idea.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:41:39 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: 

>ObTrav: What is crimefighting like in the Imperium? What kind of devices do
>stellar police agencies use? Do they have InstaSleuth kits with tiny robots
>that scour the place for evidence?

Interesting concept. Mind if I use it my my GT campaign? (The tiny robots,
I mean.)

>How about rehabilitation? Is it the current toss 'em in a cell with more
>walls and more guards mentality? Is it the "Escape From  New York"
>mentality, where you just put them somewhere far away and leave them to fend
>for themselves? Is it more of a "Clockwork Orange" thing, in which advances
>in psychology and pharmacology work wonders in lower recedivism <sp?> rates?
>After all, Leary did some promising research into the use of psychoactive
>drugs to create a sort of "religious awakening" in cons which show a marked
>increase in their return trips to jail.

I would imagine that all of the different methods you describe can be
found in the Imperium, since different worlds would have their own ways
of punishing convicted criminals. The Imperium itself, for crimes offworld
or between worlds (eg, piracy, smuggling) maintains some prisons. Of
course, the punishment for piracy is a one-way trip out an airlock while
in space...

>What is the state of crime in the Imperium? Are there Vargr mobsters? Are
>Vilani mobsters like the yakuza? How about the Aslan, is there room for
>crime in their rigid system of honor?

Vargr are more likely to be raiders and pirates than mobsters, but it
is feasible. Vilani mobsters, certainly. Aslan crime? Sure, but I can
see it organized akin to an Aslani clan, with a high-ranking female
looking after the money end of things...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:48:14 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

>> It's probably just me though. Perhaps it was just a general jadedness on my
>> part with the territory the list had been going over lately. As anyone who
>> read my stuff probably already knows, I'm much more interested in the
>> challenge of the interstellar version of Marilyn Manson than discussing
>> weapons technology and the like. If I can get some focus, expect to see
more
>> on my site in the near future.
>
>You ever see John M. Ford's 'Road Show', one of the wilder Amber Zones,
first >published in JTAS #23?  The characters become roadies for an amp
rock band >named Veedback for a one-year concert tour.  *EVERYBODY* (rabid
fans, rock->hating vigilanties, ticket scalpers, video pirates, *pirate*
pirates bent on >kidnapping them for ransom) is going to be after the
characters.  Veedback has >the highes LRI ('Lost Roadies Index') of any
band on the Rim concert circuit.  ><grin>  Makes a long ticket on a Tech 6
swamp world look like prom night at >East Tulare High.  <grin>  As John
mentioned, rock and roll *NEVER* >forgets!!!!!

Is there any source about what the state of music in the Imperium is 
in the early 12th Century (Imperial calendar)? There's the above reference
to "Amp Rock", but what else is there? This is obviously a Solomani influence.
What kind of music is generally associated with the Vilani? The Vargr?
The Aslan?

(In the G:T campaign I've just started, the Vargr engineer (NPC) has a
fondness for Vargr opera... think of Klingon opera from Star Trek, but
off-key and with a lot more howling...)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:15:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: MT Interrupts

Greetings, All,

I had some questions for others on the list who might be familiar 
with the MT mechanics.  In last night's gaming session, my players 
got into combat for the first time, and one of my new players had 
some major problems with the Interrupt mechanic used in MT's personal 
combat system.  He could not understand why, if he was conscious 
after his action had been interrupted, he could not complete his 
declared action.  I explained my perception of the rules, and the 
reasons behind it, but he was relatively undeterred.  However, it did 
get me to thinking about it, and I wanted to run something past the 
TML at large for input.

If a unit, after surviving being interrupted, is still 
conscious/active and still has the physical capacity to complete 
their action, should they be allowed to roll a Difficult, 
Determination task in order to continue their action under fire?

This stipulation might allow for the scenes where the guy gets 
shot, but still dives for the airlock mechanism and begins cycling 
the outer airlock, so his buddies can get in.  And similar such 
high-action sequences.

If not, what is the thought process behind not allowing interrupted 
actions to be completed after the interrupting action is completed?

Thanks in advance for your help and input into this request.

Keep On Travellin',
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:18:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Discarding Sabot

OK,

I'm not the most knowledgable person when it comes to military 
trivia, but one of my players wants to know what discarding sabot 
ammunition is, and I really don't know, so I couldn't answer him.  
Can anyone help me out on this?  Thanks.

Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:36:29 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Earth's Starport?

I thought I saw in an old traveller book someplace very different stats.  I 
could swear we're not a size 8.  Every geography book I've ever seen says 
"60% of the earth's surface is water" so that would be a 6.  rests seems 
about right.  As far as starport...I'd have to say we aint got one.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:38:04 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: melee weapons

At 11:19 PM 4/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>----------
>> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>
>> >What I am saying is that it is easier for an unskilled shooter to kill a
>> >target than an unskilled knife fighter.
>> 
>> 
>> How well does GURPS model this in character creation?  As I don't use the
>> GURPS system, I've never bothered with analysing the CC rules.
>> 
>Pretty well, I think. Characters with average or above average IQ have a
>bonus to their Guns skill (I think this would also apply to default use,
>but I won't swear to that)  Even a second of aiming will give a gun user a
>significant accuracy bonus, offset by fairly small range penalties at close
>range.  At 7 yards, the range penalty would just match the accuracy bonus
>of a typical pistol.  An extra second or two of aiming would add an
>additional bonus to hit.  
>
>Also, even the smallest gun does more damage than a large knife wielded by
>a person of average strength.  
>

Not when you figure in the bonus for cutting or impaleing damage.  Also
usinga gun in close combat is probematic.  A knife does not have to reload
and can not jam.  It is also silent and does not require a background check
yo buy.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:55:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Hull armor screwups

In my copy of TNE, the Lord Baltimore class Yacht has
a hull armor of 42, equal to a Patrol Cruiser. However,
the Broadsword class Mercenrary Cruiser has a hull ar-
mor of 28. To me this doesn't seem right that a yacht
would have more hull armor than a mercenary cruiser.
Is this actually correct, or was it a misprint?

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:54:52 -0700
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: MT Interrupts

Jason,

I believe your player is correct in their interpretation of the rules. Let
me explain:

Interrupting another unit, which has not yet taken its turn, allows the
interrupter to takes its turn before the other unit finishes its turn.

For example, If Joe is trying to run from behind one crate to another,
exposing himself briefly during his turn, he could be interrupted during
that move. Let's say Mike fires at Joe as he runs between the crates. If
Mike is successful in interrupting Joe, this means he gets to fire at him
while he is open. If Mike does enough damage from his shot, it could
incapacitate him. If Joe is still capable of running, he will be able to
finish his move.

Another example, Joe and Mike are involved in a duel. They both draw.
Whoever wins initiative gets the shot off first. But, if the other person
interrupts successfully, they can take their turn first. Regardless of
interrupts, if the first person hit is still standing, he can shoot back.

To summarize: Interrupts do not cancel the units action, it just inserts the
interrupters action ahead of that units action. If the interrupted unit
survives, it can continue its action.

Quote: pg68 MT Players Manual, first column, last paragraph, 4th sentance:
"If Aybee can put the NPC out of action before the NPC's turn resumes, the
NPC will be unable to do anything."

It's helpful to read the Interrupt Example from where that quote was taken.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
> Greetings, All,
>
> I had some questions for others on the list who might be familiar
> with the MT mechanics.  In last night's gaming session, my players
> got into combat for the first time, and one of my new players had
> some major problems with the Interrupt mechanic used in MT's personal
> combat system.  He could not understand why, if he was conscious
> after his action had been interrupted, he could not complete his
> declared action.  I explained my perception of the rules, and the
> reasons behind it, but he was relatively undeterred.  However, it did
> get me to thinking about it, and I wanted to run something past the
> TML at large for input.
>
> If a unit, after surviving being interrupted, is still
> conscious/active and still has the physical capacity to complete
> their action, should they be allowed to roll a Difficult,
> Determination task in order to continue their action under fire?
>
> This stipulation might allow for the scenes where the guy gets
> shot, but still dives for the airlock mechanism and begins cycling
> the outer airlock, so his buddies can get in.  And similar such
> high-action sequences.
>
> If not, what is the thought process behind not allowing interrupted
> actions to be completed after the interrupting action is completed?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:04:56 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Discarding Sabot

Jason,

I got this from the USNI Military Database. It should answer your question.
http://www.periscope.usni.com/demo/terms/t0000040.html

ABBREVIATION: APDS-T
TITLE: APDS-T -- ARMOR-PIERCING DISCARDING SABOT WITH TRACER

Armour-piercing ammunition used in tank cannon, the discarding-sabot round
permits the firing of a high-velocity sub- caliber round with greater
accuracy over longer ranges than conventional rounds.

After leaving the cannon barrel, the surrounding sabot falls away from the
core of the round, which is usually a small rod of very dense metal. This
gives the smaller round the higher initial velocity of a larger round and
thus increases its penetrating power over a greater distance.

The APDS-T has a tracer that allows the gunner to follow the round during
flight and correct targeting errors.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
> OK,
>
> I'm not the most knowledgable person when it comes to military
> trivia, but one of my players wants to know what discarding sabot
> ammunition is, and I really don't know, so I couldn't answer him.
> Can anyone help me out on this?  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:15:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

On 04/28/99 22:04:26 you wrote:
>In Toronto, where I work, people are more worried than ever about violent
>crime, and yet we have less violent crime now than we have for a long time.
>
>An acquaintance of mine in the police force thinks that this is because we
>get a lot of American TV, especially those 'live' cop shows, and we hear
>more crime stories from other places than we did before, so people are
>hearing about more crimes than ever. And if you hear more about it, the
>problem must be increasing, eh?
>
>It's a perception thing. Sorta like life.
>
	There's been good research done that shows people's perceptions of the liklihood of various 
events is heavily influenced by what they hear from others and the media.  One study counted the 
number of references to (IIRC) auto accidents, heart attacks, violence, etc. on the local evening 
news and then asked people in that area to estimate the leading causes of death for people in 
their area.  They got a very high correlation to the deaths covered in news stories, but a very 
low one to the _actual_ leading causes of death.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:20:56 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: 'Alien' plant life on Earth

While peeking at some of my science sites,
I found an article which would be good "color"
for Traveller campaigns. Just enough, that is,
for an "unearthly" detail.

The article is as follows:

- ----- begin quote -----

By RICK CALLAHAN Associated Press Writer 

A Central American vine that relies on bats for pollination attracts them by
using its flower petals like tiny satellite dishes to bounce the animals'
sonar signals back at them, researchers
reported today.

The Mucuna vine is believed to be the first plant species found to use such
a mechanism.

<snip - DS>

Researchers found that each blossom of the Mucuna vine contains a special
petal with a concave acoustical ``mirror.'' The petal directs signals back
toward any nectar-feeding bat that chirps in its direction.

The discovery was made by Dagmar and Otto von Helversen, a husband-and-wife
team from the University of Erlangen in Germany. They reported their
findings in today's issue of the journal Nature..."

<snip - DS>

"...The von Helversens tested their theory by removing the acoustic guide
petals from some blossoms and stuffing others with cotton pads. They found
that 20 percent or less of those blossoms were visited by bats, compared
with about 75 percent of the untouched flowers.

The vine grows along creeks and in rain forests. Its short-lived
2-inch-long, whitish-green flowers are timed to open every half hour to an
hour.

The acoustic device rises into its reflective position only when the
night-blooming flowers are ripe for pollinating, thereby discouraging bats
from visiting a flower that isn't ready to give
up its pollen.

- ----- end quote -----

ObTrav:  With a little forethought, such devices could
be use to help bring home to players they aren't just
on Earth with a weird colored sky. Imagine, if you will,
such a series of plants which have adapted to reflect
*radar* or scatter thermal signatures. Such growth
can be used by a GM (or players) to hide a crashed
ship, foil terrorists/freedom fighters, protect an
Ancients site or PCs/NPCs on the run, etc.

It gets even better if the PCs discover the plant's
properties on their own as part of a scientific
expedition, making a name for themselves in the
scientific community and leading to additional
patron encounters.

Such little tidbits can lead to a lot of fun.

There. My Traveller contribution for the day.

Back to work.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #527
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 29 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 528



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: OT:Gazebo
Super spinal mounts (was Re: Drop Tanks)
Re: Discarding Sabot
Re: MT Interrupts
low tech melee weapons
Roadshow (was Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs)
Re: Earth's Starport?
Re: Super spinal mounts (was Re: Drop Tanks)
Re: 'Alien' plant life on Earth
OT: Re: AK-47s banned...
RE: General Hooker and his friends
Re: General Hooker and his friends
Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)
Re: Discarding Sabot
Interrupt Rules
Re: Copyright
Re: 'Alien' plant life on Earth
Re: Two questions
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
Re: MT Interrupts
Re: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics) 
Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:17:27 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: OT:Gazebo

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-04-28 21:08:33 EDT, you write:
>
> << Some time ago I read a story about a AD&D game in which the GM had told the
>  players they saw a gazebo.  One of the players didn't know what it was and
>  attacked it thinking it was some sort of monster.  I saw the story on a BBS
> in
>  Dallas Tx several years ago and I am hoping to find again.  if any of you
> know of
>  it or have a copy of it I would like to have it. >>
>
> An exsample of someone who needs to get out.
> -Stephen

No arguments here.  Any women out here want to date an RPG fanatic in his late
20's?


- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:50:26 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Super spinal mounts (was Re: Drop Tanks)

>>>> (begin quoted material)
So, yes, it _would_ be possible to power some (currently imaginary)
factor
XXX meson gun from the single discharge of your jump capacitors, but
trying
to power something as "small" as an R meson results only in a melted
pile of
scrap metal where your meson gun used to be.

A nice GM might let you get one extra powerful shot out of your
destructing
meson, like a detonation laser, or he might not, ruling that the meson
cooking also takes out other systems. (i.e, the rest of the ship)

Yes, this allows the possibility of super powerful single shot weapon
systems out there somewhere....

Frankie
>>>> (end quoted material)
Readers of the Lensmen series by EE Doc Smith will recognize these as
"Primaries."  When originally used, they were the final gasp of what are
essentially orbital monitors, and the single shot slagged the entire
monitor satellite.  It was later that the Space Patrol scientists were
able to design a switch that let them use all the power in one shot
without slagging the whole ship.  Of course it did slag the weapon, so
they were one shot items even then.
I might allow a single use of a Jump drive/spinal mount weapon in this
way, though I agree that it would completely destroy the ship (and not
allow survivors, or much more than a few molten droplets left of the
ship).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:52:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Discarding Sabot

> From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> Subject: Re: Discarding Sabot
> 
> Jason,
> 
> I got this from the USNI Military Database. It should answer your question.
> http://www.periscope.usni.com/demo/terms/t0000040.html

<<Rest of post deleted to conserve bandwidth.>>

Shawn,

Thanks.  That was what I was looking for.

Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:54:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: MT Interrupts

> From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> Subject: Re: MT Interrupts
> 
> Jason,
> 
> I believe your player is correct in their interpretation of the rules. Let
> me explain:
> 
> Interrupting another unit, which has not yet taken its turn, allows the
> interrupter to takes its turn before the other unit finishes its turn.

The rules seem to read otherwise, but the example carries what I 
would rather see, as you've pointed out.  Thanks.

> To summarize: Interrupts do not cancel the units action, it just inserts the
> interrupters action ahead of that units action. If the interrupted unit
> survives, it can continue its action.
> 
> Quote: pg68 MT Players Manual, first column, last paragraph, 4th sentance:
> "If Aybee can put the NPC out of action before the NPC's turn resumes, the
> NPC will be unable to do anything."
> 
> It's helpful to read the Interrupt Example from where that quote was taken.

I will do so.  Thanks, again.

(I love this list!  You guys are always so helpful.)

Thanks,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:57:12 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: low tech melee weapons

Charles L.writes:
>Several of the old traveller adventures deal with worlds with weapons
>limitation the the PC have to deal with.  It once worked in favor of a
>character on mine with blade-3.  Ha!  There was also a world that only
>allowed duel pistols.  They had a very high law level but allowed dueling.
>Very scary place.  You could get into a duel for almost anything.  We got
>out quick!  Those people were wound to tight!

     I like this!

Jumping in the comparisson between BattleDress and Midevil armor...
That's a tough one to make, IMHO.  The Armor gave protection, but at a lack
of mobilty.
BD (as opposed to Combat Armor) allows the wearer to run at least as fast
as normal, and probably longer.  Add a grav belt, and you have major mobility.

There are man-portable weapons that will defeat Battledress.  A HEAP
RAM-grenade is probably the lightest.  BD does provide protection against
*most* small arms and shrapnel.  It does not mean you can give up the
concepts of cover and concealment.

Another advantage of BattleDress is that it makes you a much more effective
weapons platform.  The individual trooper can carry more and more powerful
weapons.  For example, a BD trooper could be carrying:
- - A PGMP (main weapon)
- - A Gauss PDF (for when you just want to take out the target, and not the
building behind it)
- - A forearm mounted laser carbine (mostly for target painting, but
effective against unarmored foes)
- - Two small tac missles or a RAM Grenade launcher.

Oh ya...and a Space Axe :-)



- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. 
That's our story and we're sticking to it. http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:01:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Roadshow (was Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs)

>>You ever see John M. Ford's 'Road Show', one of the wilder Amber Zones,
>first >published in JTAS #23?  The characters become roadies for an amp
>rock band >named Veedback for a one-year concert tour.  *EVERYBODY*
(rabid
>fans, rock->hating vigilanties, ticket scalpers, video pirates, *pirate*
>pirates bent on >kidnapping them for ransom) is going to be after the
>characters.  Veedback has >the highes LRI ('Lost Roadies Index') of any
>band on the Rim concert circuit.  ><grin>  Makes a long ticket on a Tech
6
>swamp world look like prom night at >East Tulare High.  <grin>  As John
>mentioned, rock and roll *NEVER* >forgets!!!!!

>Is there any source about what the state of music in the Imperium is 
>in the early 12th Century (Imperial calendar)? There's the above
reference
>to "Amp Rock", but what else is there? This is obviously a Solomani
influence.
>What kind of music is generally associated with the Vilani? The Vargr?
>The Aslan?

>(In the G:T campaign I've just started, the Vargr engineer (NPC) has a
>fondness for Vargr opera... think of Klingon opera from Star Trek, but
>off-key and with a lot more howling...)

I am currently running a G:T game on IRC based somewhat on the Roadshow
mentioned above.  Not only are the PCs roadies, some are actualy
musicians!  The band plays a fusion of heavy metal, celtic, jazz, and some
villani classical thrown in for effect.  The name of the band, Tir Na nOg.

So far the adventures have involved finding and aprehending a hit man who
was hired to off the band's diva.  Finding an orphaned child who also
happens to be a telepath and of course getting the stage set for the next
gig on time.

I am looking for more players, so far we are down to only 2 as some
players had to bail due to RL.
We play Thursday nights at starting between 8:30-9 pm eastern.
Check out the #traveller website http://home.att.net/~websuz/
or http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/ircgame/ for more information.

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:05:46 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Earth's Starport?

> From: Tascelt@aol.com
> I thought I saw in an old traveller book someplace very different stats.  I 
> could swear we're not a size 8.

Hmmm, Size 8= 8x1,600= 12,800 km, and earth is just around that 
(12,742 IIRC ?), so that one is right. 

>  Every geography book I've ever seen says 
> "60% of the earth's surface is water" so that would be a 6.  rests seems 
> about right.  As far as starport...I'd have to say we aint got one.

Every book I've seen says 71%, so also that should be right. Where 
are your books from? ;-)

Carlos 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:13:19 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Super spinal mounts (was Re: Drop Tanks)

>Yes, this allows the possibility of super powerful single shot weapon
>systems out there somewhere....

"You will now witness the power of this _fully armed and operational lab
ship_! Fire at will, commander!"

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:19:05 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: 'Alien' plant life on Earth

<snip>
>The acoustic device rises into its reflective position only when the
>night-blooming flowers are ripe for pollinating, thereby discouraging bats
>from visiting a flower that isn't ready to give
>up its pollen.
>
>----- end quote -----
>
>ObTrav:  With a little forethought, such devices could
>be use to help bring home to players they aren't just
>on Earth with a weird colored sky. Imagine, if you will,
>such a series of plants which have adapted to reflect
>*radar* or scatter thermal signatures. Such growth
>can be used by a GM (or players) to hide a crashed
>ship, foil terrorists/freedom fighters, protect an
>Ancients site or PCs/NPCs on the run, etc.
>
<snip>

A very good and interesting post. It is always fun to add weird stuff in
Traveller that is neither psionic nor Ancient.
I think Niven used similar plants in Ringworld. They reflected sunlight to
shoot down birds and insects and caused the characters some problems when
they were scooting along in their gravvehicles.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:35:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: OT: Re: AK-47s banned...

Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net> wrote:

> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #523
> 
> Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> > >> 1> AK-47s are banned in most of the US, as are the 30-round magazines
> > >> they use.
> > 
> > A minor nits to pick.  AK-47 type weapons are not illegal or banned.  Even
> > the full auto examples are not illegal.  There are rules regulating them.
> > Flash hiders, pistol grips, normal stocks, and bayonet lugs, all EVIL as
> > pronounced by the Clinton administration.  The semiauto clones have to
> > follow the Brady Law.  Further, 30rnd mags are not banned either, you just
> > can not manufacture or import them anymore.
> 
> According to:
> 
> http://www.senate.gov/member/ca/feinstein/general/assault1.html
> 
> ...the AK47 is banned by name even in semi-auto, as well as the 
> Tec-9 used in Littleton. 

Wrong in both cases.  The website is chock full of inacurracies, but
then, since it belongs to Senator Diane Feinstein (a notorius anti-
gunner), that's not surprising.

In point of fact, Tec-9s, and their clones are readily available in
many gunstores today, and full-auto AK-47s can still be had for the
cost of a $200 Class III transfer (plus the purchase price of the
rifle.)  Since the *IMPORT* ban of May, 1986 took effect, the price
of Class III firearms has skyrocketed, as the supply is limited to
what is already in the U.S.  I should know, I own three of them myself.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:45:41 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: General Hooker and his friends

Chris Peers writes:
"ObTrav:  We always read about lone battlecruisers guarding 
interdicted worlds for decades.  How does the crew get rest 
and relaxation when it takes weeks to get anywhere?  How does 
the Imperial Navy handle shore leave, when they patrol, train 
in, and garrison subsectors filled with mostly uninhabitable 
rockballs?  "All 700 of us are going to visit the one tiny bar
at the Way Station. Woohoo."  There can't be much of a 
recreation scene."

	Would a R-and-R starship work? Many of the local worlds
	that might serve as rest stops will have no breathable 
	atmosphere, largely restricting recreation to indoor 
	facilities that could be reproduced on a big starship.
	Perhaps such facilities could be included in the design
	of resupply ships, if only to keep the crew sane until
	the trip to a pleasant world is more feasable.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:58:31 EDT
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: General Hooker and his friends

In a message dated 99-04-29 12:47:15 EDT, you write:

<< 	Would a R-and-R starship work? Many of the local worlds
 	that might serve as rest stops will have no breathable 
 	atmosphere, largely restricting recreation to indoor 
 	facilities that could be reproduced on a big starship.
 	Perhaps such facilities could be included in the design
 	of resupply ships, if only to keep the crew sane until
 	the trip to a pleasant world is more feasable.
 
 Peez  >>

ah...  the Bacauss-class Entertainment ship....

right out of "Space: Above and Beyound"...

richard

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:07:46 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)

Phil Kitching wrote:

> (A "fun" thing to roll in your Navy character's advanced character
>  generation - spend a year as a popsicle - no promotion, no skill. :-)

and no ageing .... so it dosn't realy matter, unless to spend lots of time as
a popsicle, and your segnificant other dosn't ....

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:00:05 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Discarding Sabot

I used to work on the PHALANX 20mm close-in weapon system while I was in the
navy.  The gun caliber is 20mm, and a 'ball' round of ammunition would have
that caliber as well.  Our primary ammunition, however, is (was) a depleted
uranium 'penetrator' that is significantly harder than the average round
that you feed through the barrel.

Since firing straight DU through the gun would quickly destroy the barrels,
especially at the speeds at which we fired, the DU portion of the penetrator
was fashioned to be subcaliber (10mm as I recall), and the difference was
made up with a plastic sabot.  This allows the lans in the barrel to bite
into the plastic and impart the spin to stabilize the rounds, but the
plastic effectively removes the metal to metal erosion and friction that a
normal round would cause - the only thing still eroding the barrel is the
expanding gases from the propellent - and increases the barrel life.  (In
the four years that I was out in the fleet, the only reason we would ever
have to replace a barrel was due to corrosion from the *outside*, and that
was more for cosmetic reasons than anything else.)

The sabot is designed to fall away from the sub-caliber penetrator (the
sabot is actually split into four pieces, and held in place at the crimp
where the cartridge is secured to the penetrator), which is why it is called
discarding sabot.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 8:18 AM
Subject: Discarding Sabot


> OK,
>
> I'm not the most knowledgable person when it comes to military
> trivia, but one of my players wants to know what discarding sabot
> ammunition is, and I really don't know, so I couldn't answer him.
> Can anyone help me out on this?  Thanks.
>
> Jason
> ==============================
> Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
> (512)458-7111 ext. 3375
>
> Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
> ==============================
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:14:31 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Interrupt Rules

I wrote:
>> Interrupting another unit, which has not yet taken its turn, allows the
>> interrupter to takes its turn before the other unit finishes its turn.

Jason wrote:
> The rules seem to read otherwise, but the example carries what I
> would rather see, as you've pointed out.  Thanks.

Now, having re-read the rules again... I see your point. It does say in the
UTP that "The interrupted units turn is considered spent. A failed interrupt
role doesn't count as a spent turn."

I can see where different situations can call for different rules. One thing
to consider is the UTP's are only examples. I think the referee needs to
make the call at the time of the event.

This conversation has sparked a new thought for me. If a living unit is hit,
shouldn't its turn be canceled. Considering that their are only 6 seconds
per combat round, if you get hit 3 seconds into the round, are you really
going to be able to stand their and fire back in the remaining 3 seconds? or
are you going to be rolling on the floor clutching your wounds?

Jason wrote:
> If a unit, after surviving being interrupted, is still
> conscious/active and still has the physical capacity to complete
> their action, should they be allowed to roll a Difficult,
> Determination task in order to continue their action under fire?
>

This task could be used to determine if you can return fire in the same turn
you were hit. Not just for interrupts as you suggested. This idea would, of
course, include interrupts.

The only downside to this is extra rolls. I, personally, like to limit the
number of rolls necessary in combat.
But, then again, it might not be so bad when you consider that most living
targets will drop with one hit.

I'm going to try this out in my next game to see how well it works.

Thanks for the idea, Jason.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:18:04 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Copyright

David Healey wrote:

> One assumes it would be entirely possible to copyright an item (or idea) on
> one world, then attempt to do so on an expanding ring of worlds.  That is,
> take the idea from world to world copyrighting it (depending upon the local
> legislation for such things).  This would come under the auspices of the
> local legal people for that company.  A communique from the head of R&D
> (Rhylanor) to R&D (Regina) of Megacorp X directs him/her/it to patent an
> item post-haste, for instance.
> 
> This could lead to the some interesting developments as people register
> business names and/or patents in the hope that the owner of that
> concept/name on another world will then come in and spend a bundle buying
> the right to use the name.
> 
> "Whaddaya mean I can't call it Astroburger ?  It's called that everywhere
> else !!"
> 
> Dave H

You mean like the burger stand in Sydney which was called "Burger King", so
when BK went down under they had to call it Hungery Jacks ?

Ewan

- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:22:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: 'Alien' plant life on Earth

In a message dated 99-04-29 12:22:15 EDT, you write:

<< I think Niven used similar plants in Ringworld. They reflected sunlight to
 shoot down birds and insects and caused the characters some problems when
 they were scooting along in their gravvehicles. >>

Yeap, Slaver Sunflowers
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:20:30 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two questions

In a message dated 4/28/99 8:43:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:

<< Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
 
 > Norris and Strephon both have the same middle name: Aledon. Hmm...
 
 Isn't it Aella? >>

yeah; something like that. I don't have my materials in front of me...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:27:46 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

GREAT POST!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:31:04 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

In a message dated 4/28/99 10:14:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jamstar@earthlink.net writes:

<< 'Czarist'. >>

oops'; should have proofread...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:53:22 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: MT Interrupts

Jason Kemp wrote:
> 
> Greetings, All,
> 
> I had some questions for others on the list who might be familiar
> with the MT mechanics.  In last night's gaming session, my players
> got into combat for the first time, and one of my new players had
> some major problems with the Interrupt mechanic used in MT's personal
> combat system.  He could not understand why, if he was conscious
> after his action had been interrupted, he could not complete his
> declared action.  I explained my perception of the rules, and the
> reasons behind it, but he was relatively undeterred.  However, it did
> get me to thinking about it, and I wanted to run something past the
> TML at large for input.
> 

This is addressed in one of the MT errata. The correction to the rules says that
you are allowed to complete your turn after the interrupt is over (assuming, of
course, that you're still alive to do so).

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:19:08 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics) 

> At 16:29 28/04/1999 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> 
> >Bill *also* mentioned 50 hardpoints stuffed with triple laser turrets.  That 
> >would mean at *LEAST* a Power Plant-1 to cover them.  And a 5Kt hull means
> you 
> >*NEED* that Mod 8 to control it.
> 
> Not a Mod 8.
> 
> you should be able to use more like a mod 4 or 5 for 5Kt (don't have The
> Book to hand).

Book says Mod 8.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:22:23 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power 

> Them problem is not drop tanks, but the drop tank description that
> says you transfer all the fuel, discard them and then jump.

But note that the only canon design does still have some substantial internal 
tankage of its own (excepting the JTAS one).  Supp7 and Supp 9 both have J2 
internal tankage IIRC.  

This is only a problem if *all* of the fuel is used instantaneously. Instead 
of having internal (or some significant portion) guzzled instantly, at the 
higher displacement, then transfering the drop tank fuel to internal tankage 
and 'completing' the fuel usage (instantly or throughout the jump, according 
to YTUs jump theory), at lower displacement.  Someone wanna run the numbers 
(m3 of fuel)?  I'll do it eventually if noone else does...


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #528
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 29 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 529



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Hull armor screwups
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
Re: Fuel Stations 
Re: Fuel Stations 
Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 
drop tanks are recoverable! 
Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia   
Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #525
Re: MT Interrupts
Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 
Re: MT Interrupts
Re: Gun Control.
Golf (with an Ob Trav) (was Re: Market it right and it's not  smuggling...)
Re: Copyright
re: Fuel Stations
Re: CT character gen programs
Traveller Fanzines
Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:23:18 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hull armor screwups

> In my copy of TNE, the Lord Baltimore class Yacht has
> a hull armor of 42, equal to a Patrol Cruiser. However,
> the Broadsword class Mercenrary Cruiser has a hull ar-
> mor of 28. To me this doesn't seem right that a yacht
> would have more hull armor than a mercenary cruiser.
> Is this actually correct, or was it a misprint?

It's correct.  Check the TL of the designs.  The Yacht and patrol cruiser are 
TL-15, the Broadsword is TL-12.  In stock TNE there isn't a TL-15 improvement 
on TL-14s Bonded Superdense, but it's twice as effective as TL-12 vanilla 
Superdense (thus half as thick for same protection).

Also note the accelerations.  Both are 4G and under FF&S rules need at least 
an AV or 40 to protect against micrometeorites, etc.  The Broadsword only has 
2G and needs 20.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:33:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

> In a message dated 4/28/99 10:14:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> jamstar@earthlink.net writes:
> 
> << 'Czarist'. >>
> 
> oops'; should have proofread...

*chuckle*

That's what you get for posting in front of a guy whose grandparents *WERE* 
Czarists.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:36:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations 

> Phil Kitching wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > So have the tanker refilling the station drop off new tanks instead of
> > fill up old ones. The tonnage will (due to the level of abstraction) be
> > the same. <G>
> 
> Those "disposable tanks" are only disposed of if someone activates
> the explosive bolts. It is perfectly possible to perform a successful
> jump with one attached.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> Certainly. I was just responding to Keven's assertion that cheapie fuel
> tanks parked by a small fuel station would wear out over time.

Burst, not wear out.  They're flimsier, remember?  You can make something that can handle high pressure for a short period of time, but it'll fail if you *keep* it at high pressure for a longer period of time.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:42:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations 

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Oops, missed his mention of triple laser turrets. I don't think these would
> > be a good idea on a non-mobile space station myself - you are so killable 
> > that your only defense against an enemy is to appear helpless and useful.
> > 
> > Of course, this defense only works until the enemy (or your friends) 
> > decide you're more useful to the other side than you are to them...
> 
> The lasers were for antimissile defense.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Anti-missile lasers are pretty much irrelevant if you can't move. An enemy
> can accelerate outside your effective range and just toss gravel at you.
> 
> Or a nice, solid nickel-iron asteroid.

Which just shows that you *DON'T* want cheepie tanks.  One good solid hit with 
a chunk of gravel and the tank *bursts*.

And besides, you *can* vaporise gravel with lasers.  It just takes some time 
to do it.
 
> Keven again:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > The HG rules are specifically designed to create warships, and have
> > some abstractions in them. 
> 
> They're specifically designed for *spaceships*.  Warships are just a subset of spaceships.  <grin>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> A subset with some very specific needs you won't find on a commercial
> vessel. 
> 
> No matter. You can cheap out the gas station with my small station
> module idea. Still costly, though.

I still don't see it.  The tanks would be too flimsy.  My take on it is, if 
they were designed for long term applications, they'd be made stronger, and if 
they were stronger, the rules would show they cost just as much as a normal 
hull does.  *OR* if they *were* that strong, hulls would be cheaper.
  
> Keven again:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > I think it's fine to have a 400dtn space station module keeping an eye
> > on a couple thousand tons of immobile fuel tanks. YMMV.
> 
> It does.  No way I'd let a 400 ton station pack 50 turrets, or have those couple thousand tons worth of drop tanks just laying around.  IMTU, as I've said before, drop tanks are ok, they're just not very strong.  They won't last forever like a regular tank would.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> I wouldn't put 50 turrets on a 400dtn station either. Maybe one or two,
> to keep the random floating space debris away.
> 
> Tether the tanks together. So what if they need to be replaced every
> couple of months? You've got tankers coming in regularly, refurbishing
> tanks will be the least of your expenses.


You mean, replacing.  Got a question for ya.  Figure you need to replace those 
cheepie tanks every 6 months due to bursts, pinholing, whatever.  How much 
would those cheepie tanks *cost* you over a 10-year period?  How much would a 
regular *hull metal* tank cost you?  Remember that the station is designed for 
an operational lifetime of *decades*, if not a century or two.  You *don't* 
need a TL15 gas station when a TL9 or 10 one will do.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:44:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

> (In the G:T campaign I've just started, the Vargr engineer (NPC) has a
> fondness for Vargr opera... think of Klingon opera from Star Trek, but
> off-key and with a lot more howling...)

OUCH!!!!!!!!!

<grin>

Keven
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:50:35 PDT
From: "will richards" <willrichards@hotmail.com>
Subject: drop tanks are recoverable! 

First off this is IMTU! and does anyone want to guess how long this 
thread will rage?

<flame proof suit on>
<lighting match>....

I have always wondered why drop tanks are not recoverable?
When I first read this ruling I figured it was because the ship that 
dropped the tanks was now several parsects away and would have to buy 
more drop tanks in order to get back to the original set. Of course 
the more likely scenario is someone else comes along, salvages them 
and then resells them. This might account for the relatively cheap 
cost of drop tanks compared to starship hulls.

I always figured that this was the simplest/most logical/KISS 
explanation for MTU.
 
Also if a capacitor can't hold it's charge for very long then it's a 
very poor capacitor and should be replaced.


Will


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:01:47
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia   

At 11:16 PM 4/28/99 -0900, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>
>
>> Naw, for the field, I'd just take a book.  Always.  It became legendary
>> that no matter where we were, I'd have a book somewhere on my person.
>>
>> So where exactly did you put the book when you had the .32 in your
simming trunks?

In my right hand. (It was, as I recall, _Lucifer's Hammer_.)
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:15:11
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

At 07:48 AM 4/29/99 -0600, you wrote:

>(In the G:T campaign I've just started, the Vargr engineer (NPC) has a
>fondness for Vargr opera... think of Klingon opera from Star Trek, but
>off-key and with a lot more howling...)

I'm suddenly reminded of the mid-70s Doonsbury when Duke was Ambassador to
China.  He's been invited to the Peking Opera, when suddenly the sound of
machineguns fill the room.  Duke freaks and ducks, screaming "What the HELL
was that?!"  His guide responds "The Overture."  "You use automatic weapons
fire for the *overture*?"  "In art, as in life..." the guide smiles.

ObTrav:  Ambassador Duke as a PC...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:34:06 PDT
From: "Gary Miles" <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #525

>>    OBTraveller:  It is a mark of a good role-player & immersion in the
>>milieu as well as the place for the characters to ask when they arrive on a
>>world, "Where is the nearest bar?"
>
>In most Traveller campaigns I've been in (running or just as a player),
>the first place the characters head to when they dock at the starport is
>the Starport Bar. It seems to be a universal in role-playing -- in fantasy
>games, the characters always seem to wind up at the local inn. 
>
>Next adventure I run where the characters are at a Class A starport on
>a high-population, and they decide to split up with a "we'll meet in an
>hour at the bar", I'll have each character wind up in a different bar.
>The big starports would have more than one of them, right? :)

One of my favorite filksongs is "Spacers Home" by Duane Elms. Here's 
just a few of the best verses and the chorus (and remember, this is 
copyrighted by Duane Elms, from his songbook "At the Helm"...

	Space is long and dark and empty, quite a 'ways 'tween friend and
	friend,
	And you never know nobody when your journey's at an end.
	So the place you're gonna find me 'tween the times I have to
	roam's
	In the bar around the corner where they make you feel at home.

		Belly up to the bar friend, have another round.
		It's long, cold and lonely 'tween the times we hit the ground.
		One day I'm gonna settle down, never more to roam,
		But for now the bar's the spacer's home so far away from home.
	
	Spaceport bars is common places. Here you'll find the common men.
	Some is rought as three day whiskers, some is quiet as hidden sin,
	Some is deadly as an adder, some is dumber than a stone,
	And when they're not chasin' stardust they make spaceport bars
	their home.

Duane Elms writes some of the best filk. Try to find a copy of 
"Dawson's Christian" if you can...it forms one of the spacer's legends 
IMTU. And many filk songs are songs the PC's here being sung in 
spaceport bars.

Gary
Remember: No Matter Where You Go, There You Are...
	


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:49:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: MT Interrupts

From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>

> Jason Kemp wrote:
> > 
> > Greetings, All,
> > 
> > I had some questions for others on the list who might be familiar
> > with the MT mechanics.  In last night's gaming session, my players
> > got into combat for the first time, and one of my new players had
> > some major problems with the Interrupt mechanic used in MT's personal
> > combat system.  He could not understand why, if he was conscious
> > after his action had been interrupted, he could not complete his
> > declared action.  I explained my perception of the rules, and the
> > reasons behind it, but he was relatively undeterred.  However, it did
> > get me to thinking about it, and I wanted to run something past the
> > TML at large for input.
> > 
> 
> This is addressed in one of the MT errata. The correction to the rules says that
> you are allowed to complete your turn after the interrupt is over (assuming, of
> course, that you're still alive to do so).

Cool!  That's not in the errata I have so far.  I've got the two 
parts put together by the TML.  One dated in April and the other in 
June, I don't remember the years at this time.  :(

I'd love to see the errata you have.  Is there a means that I could 
get that information from you?  Thanks in advance, Erwin.

From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>

> I wrote:
> >> Interrupting another unit, which has not yet taken its turn,
> >> allows the interrupter to takes its turn before the other unit
> >> finishes its turn.
> 
> Jason wrote:
> > The rules seem to read otherwise, but the example carries what I
> > would rather see, as you've pointed out.  Thanks.
> 
> Now, having re-read the rules again... I see your point. It does say
> in the UTP that "The interrupted units turn is considered spent. A
> failed interrupt role doesn't count as a spent turn."
> 
> I can see where different situations can call for different rules.
> One thing to consider is the UTP's are only examples. I think the
> referee needs to make the call at the time of the event.

Thanks.  I've already spoken with my gaming group over lunch, and 
they are very happy with the decision to allow interrupted turns to 
continue, providing you're still up, that is.  Makes much more sense 
to them, and to me.
 
> This conversation has sparked a new thought for me. If a living unit
> is hit, shouldn't its turn be canceled. Considering that their are
> only 6 seconds per combat round, if you get hit 3 seconds into the
> round, are you really going to be able to stand their and fire back
> in the remaining 3 seconds? or are you going to be rolling on the
> floor clutching your wounds?
> 
> Jason wrote:
> > If a unit, after surviving being interrupted, is still
> > conscious/active and still has the physical capacity to complete
> > their action, should they be allowed to roll a Difficult,
> > Determination task in order to continue their action under fire?
> >
> 
> This task could be used to determine if you can return fire in the
> same turn you were hit. Not just for interrupts as you suggested.
> This idea would, of course, include interrupts.
> 
> The only downside to this is extra rolls. I, personally, like to
> limit the number of rolls necessary in combat. But, then again, it
> might not be so bad when you consider that most living targets will
> drop with one hit.
> 
> I'm going to try this out in my next game to see how well it works.
> 
> Thanks for the idea, Jason.

No problem.  It's a privilege to be able to help a fellow Traveller 
out with ideas.  I get so many from the people on this list.  Please, 
let me know how it works out with your group.

This reminds me of the HERO System rule requiring Ego checks to act
offensively in a phase when you are hit.  (Optional rule, generally
only applied to NPCs.  Works to enforce a sense of caution in
Fantasy gamers, though.  :)

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:53:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

> At 07:48 AM 4/29/99 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> >(In the G:T campaign I've just started, the Vargr engineer (NPC) has a
> >fondness for Vargr opera... think of Klingon opera from Star Trek, but
> >off-key and with a lot more howling...)
> 
> I'm suddenly reminded of the mid-70s Doonsbury when Duke was Ambassador to
> China.  He's been invited to the Peking Opera, when suddenly the sound of
> machineguns fill the room.  Duke freaks and ducks, screaming "What the HELL
> was that?!"  His guide responds "The Overture."  "You use automatic weapons
> fire for the *overture*?"  "In art, as in life..." the guide smiles.

I remember that one!!!  It was *great*!
 
> ObTrav:  Ambassador Duke as a PC...

There goes the *new* keyboard!!!!!!!!!!!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:10:48 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: MT Interrupts

Jason Kemp wrote:
> 
> Cool!  That's not in the errata I have so far.  I've got the two
> parts put together by the TML.  One dated in April and the other in
> June, I don't remember the years at this time.  :(
> 
> I'd love to see the errata you have.  Is there a means that I could
> get that information from you?  Thanks in advance, Erwin.

Unfortunately I don't have that errata as a separate document. A long time ago I
created Word copies of my MT rules and incorporated the errata into them. I did
this because my players couldn't find the rules to buy for themselves (we only
have one decent gaming store in Calgary, and it doesn't carry much Traveller).

After I incorporated the errata, I deleted the original document. I'd offer you
my MT rules, but
a) I think that might violate a copyright somewhere
b) they now have some bits and pieces of T4 and T4.1 in them

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:11:48 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Gun Control.

>>
>>Cars have a purpose other than killing: getting from point A to point B.
>>What purpose does a gun have other than to kill or inflict severe injury?
>>
>>

>I'll answer that one.  I did not endend to post to this tread but the above
>is just to much wrong head retoric.
>
>A gun it's an equalizer.

Maybe I don't want "men" to be equal. Maybe I don't want some 19 year old
legal gun owner to blow my kid away because he used bad judgement and was
rude. Maybe I don't want a minority who disagrees with some public policy
that the majority has agreed to to be able to take up arms against us. Maybe
I don't trust "YOU" to be armed. I don't personally know all these honest
citizens who want to bear arms. How do **I** know that they are trust
worthy? Because they tell me so? Because you tell me so?

And that's the real problem. I know that I can be trusted with a firearm,
but can you be?  The gist of the argument is always between those who are
familiar with guns and comfortable with them, and those who are either
unfamiliar with them and would rather they didn't exist at all.  Also can be
spilt between those who don't trust government as an institution and those
who do. After all if it's MY government, MY army, MY police, what do **I**
need a gun for. On the other hand if it's SOMEONE else's government, SOMEONE
else's army, SOMEONE else's police it's a different story.

The answer? You're all right. Guns don't kill. People Kill. People kill
fewer victims without guns. Criminals won't turn in their guns. Parents are
responsible for the raising of their children and for their misdeeds. Some
children grow into monsters, no matter how they're raised. We can't keep
guns out of anybody's hands as long as we let gun manufacturers make so many
and sell ammunition and the equipment and chemicals needed for reloading.
Hunters who obey the law and know how to shoot should have a right to do so.
They pay enough for it.  No one should need a gun to protect themselves.
Nothing we do will prevent a heretofore law abiding citizen who decides to
go on a killing spree from find a way to do it. A gun can make it easier,
but anyone with intelligence and a library card can find another way to do
it.  The answer? I don't know. But we better figure something out as a
society or we'll never get off this planet.

Obtrav:My players know that they can only go so far if they're inside the
Imperium's boarders.  There's nothing like the threat of a regiment of
Marines dropping from orbit in GTL 12 Battle Dress with armor support to
ruin your whole day.

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:55:11 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Golf (with an Ob Trav) (was Re: Market it right and it's not  smuggling...)

Phil Kitching wrote:

> >I wouldn't go below a 2 Iron.  Its impossible to hit anything with
> >a 1 Iron.
>
> The pros would probably favour the 1 iron for the combination of
> striking power and controlability.
> Amateurs tend towards medium irons which are shorter and more
> controlable, unless they feel the need for reach, when they
> swing wildly with a wood.

I was referring to the golf joke punchline that not even God can
hit anything with a 1 iron.

Ob. Trav.:

What would be the recreation sport of the high Soc travellers?
I can easily imagine that golf might survive.  But wouldn't there
be a more Traveller-ish game, perhaps originating among
Vilani nobility.  A game that is somewhat elitist, and doesn't
require any marked physical fitness that is leisurely.  The kind
of game where more business is done than in the boardroom.

Any ideas?  The harder I think about it, the more I think its
just good ol' golf.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:01:13 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright

David Healey wrote:

> G'day all,
>
> On 28/4/99, Steve Daniels wrote :
>
> >As far as the scenario above goes, more likely IMO is outright
> >industrial espionage and sabotage.  Although, for a truly significant
> >item, worthy of an Imperial patent, and making a big step to the
> >next TL, the litigation may be allowed to proceed.
>
> One assumes it would be entirely possible to copyright an item (or idea) on
> one world, then attempt to do so on an expanding ring of worlds.  That is,
> take the idea from world to world copyrighting it (depending upon the local
> legislation for such things).  This would come under the auspices of the
> local legal people for that company.  A communique from the head of R&D
> (Rhylanor) to R&D (Regina) of Megacorp X directs him/her/it to patent an
> item post-haste, for instance.
>
> This could lead to the some interesting developments as people register
> business names and/or patents in the hope that the owner of that
> concept/name on another world will then come in and spend a bundle buying
> the right to use the name.
>
> "Whaddaya mean I can't call it Astroburger ?  It's called that everywhere
> else !!"
>
> Dave H

I'm sorry but I can't follow you with the assumption.
The question is whether there even is Imperial Copyright.
If you agree that there is, then its superior to the copyright
laws of all member worlds.  Just as the Berne Treaty on
Copyrights applies to the US, and most of the world,
regardless of what the US laws actually say.

If there is no Imperial Copyright, then perhaps you can
copyright on each world, assuming they have a law
level and a government that supports copyright.

And "Astroburger" wouldn't be copyrightable.
Its a trademark, i.e, it identifies the source of the
good.  Copyrights apply to original works
of authorship, i.e, expression.  Trademarks and
copyrights are not the same things, regardless of
how often US federal judges confuse the theories
of the two.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:13:14 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fuel Stations

Keven Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Burst, not wear out.  They're flimsier, remember?  You can make something that can handle high pressure for a short period of time, but it'll fail if you *keep* it at high pressure for a longer period of time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My take on these was that they were only under dangerously high pressure
when dumping fuel fast into a jump drive.

If pressure is a problem, fill 'em with water - the scout and military
ships will have fuel treatment plants aboard.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:25:09 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-04-28 21:14:39 EDT, you write:
>
> << I'm still working on my Advanced Chargen for all T4/5
>  careers, from time to time.  Yes, even Entertainer.  ;-) >>
>
> Would you mind posting what you have?
> -Stephen

Here's the T4 High Guard conversion I did.

http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/highgard.htm

Notes:
 - The email at the bottom is dead.
 - Its designed to be compatible with the T4.1/T5 beta material that
I have seen, so that Liason skill appears and that the Ranks don't
perfectly match is intended.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:28:09 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Traveller Fanzines

Thanks to Mr. Simpson, I've been spending the last few hours looking
over old Traveller fanzines...

As I look over these things, I see that they all died out right around
or after MegaTraveller came on the scene...

Did MT really devastate that many people?  The editorial of the last
"Third Imperium" says that Mike Jackson was halting production of it
because he was writing for GDW officially now - yet I don't recall
anything written by him...



DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior ConfigMgt Engineer      dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:35:51 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

>
>> ObTrav:  Ambassador Duke as a PC...
>
>There goes the *new* keyboard!!!!!!!!!!!
>


I thought *everyone* had already played a Duke as a PC (and NPC, now that I
think about it...) Lordknows I have, several times.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #529
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 29 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 530



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Fuel Stations
Entropic Worlds PBeM Game Concept Message
Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 
Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
Re: [OT]Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509
Re: NYPD uniforms (long)
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: The Imperium as a planetary owner
Connection between Norris and Strephon
Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs
Vilani expansion
Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: drop tanks are recoverable! 
Re: Earth's Starport?
Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Fighting Crime in the Imperium
Re: low tech weapons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:25:35 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fuel Stations

Keven Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Which just shows that you *DON'T* want cheepie tanks.  One good solid hit with a chunk of gravel and the tank *bursts*.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Keven, one good solid hit with a fast enough chunk of gravel and
factor-15 armor "bursts". Cheapie has nothing to do with it.

Keven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Tether the tanks together. So what if they need to be replaced every
> couple of months? You've got tankers coming in regularly, refurbishing
> tanks will be the least of your expenses.

You mean, replacing.  Got a question for ya.  Figure you need to replace 
those cheepie tanks every 6 months due to bursts, pinholing, whatever.  
How much would those cheepie tanks *cost* you over a 10-year period?  
How much would a regular *hull metal* tank cost you?  Remember that the 
station is designed for an operational lifetime of *decades*, if not a century 
or two.  You *don't* need a TL15 gas station when a TL9 or 10 one will do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
And me without my High Guard books to hand. :)

A hull will wear out in approximately 40 years. It will need to be returned for 
maintenance every year. It costs Cr100000 per ton, plus whatever it will cost 
in bridge, power, life support, etc.

A disposable tank needs to cost about Cr1250 per ton to match this,
but I'm only counting the Cr100000/tn cost of starship-grade hull, not
the power, bridge, etc. requirements. I don't recall the cost of drop tanks,
but I'm not sure drop tanks are the best choice for this anyway.

A fuel tank can be deployed that is not intended to carry fuel through
jump space. It will be filled by tankers at the site, and transported
empty (or even collapsed) back for refurbishment. I'm thinking that
dismountable tanks may be the ticket here, but I don't recall the price
of them. They're rigid, so should last longer than 6-months.

If the GM doesn't want fuel stations, he can easily make them impractical.
That's a TU decision, what's to argue about?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:45:11 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Entropic Worlds PBeM Game Concept Message

In a message dated 4/28/99 7:51:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:

<< Hello.
 
 I have to say that I'm totally clueless at the moment.
 Is there an outline of rules or anything anywhere?>>

and....

<<I'm afraid I still can't quite wrap my mind around the concept about
what you're doing... >>

From these two emails I am assuming that I am not doing a very good job of 
explaining what and how the campaign is supposed to be. :( 

First this is not a traditional Star Trek-like pbem or sim as commonly 
encountered on the Internet. Although it is possible that a player could play 
only one character as in most sims, it is expected that a player will run an 
actual network of characters. This is to maximize player participation in the 
campaign's development. To coin a term from a one of my family's favorite 
computer games, your actually playing the guiding spirit of your network of 
characters. Although my past experience has been in using this format that 
players will normally assume the persona of their most powerful character 
during the campaign. 

The actual campaign itself focuses on the interaction of networks of 
characters each controlled by a different player. The characters in these 
networks will interact in the play environment, collecting information, 
executing tasks, conducting missions as directed by the player. The 
activities of these characters within their networks will provide data back 
to the players in the form of emails from the narrator/referee and possiibly 
from interaction between the players to a lessor degree. Players will use 
this data to make decisions concerning their network and its objectives. 

Why networks of characters versus a single character? I decided to do this to 
allow the players maximum opportunity to collect information (ironic enlight 
of this letter) and interact in the environment since I am using monthly 
turns and following a plot timeline in sync with real time (1 month game time 
= 1 month real time) to facilitate the time lag created by the Traveller jump 
drives in interstellar communications. 
 
As far as rules of play, I thought I have mentioned before that the rules of 
play are the abstract combat rules featured in the GURPS COMPENDIUM II and 
the abstract combat system found in GURPS TRAVELLER: STARMERCS. Source 
material consists of all the Classic Traveller books, MegaTraveller, and any 
GURPS Traveller books currently published. In addition, inter-character 
action will be based entirely on my assessment of the character(s) in 
question's attributes and skills to accomplished in tasks identified by the 
players. I am looking at the ultimate goal or objective of the players rather 
than each independent skill tests. 

What this latest round of requests on my part was an attempt to do was to 
solicit the types of characters players were considering so that I could 
start organizing player information messages this weekend. It would be a 
great deal easier to write a message if I know the character type. Anyone who 
has player any of the versions of Traveller surly realizes the referee must 
know the types of characters he/she has to contend with before play can 
actually begin. 

What I envision future turns to consist of is a message from a player 
identifying his character(s), and what he/she intends for those characters to 
attempt with the timeframe of the game turn (1 month). I as the referee will 
then send a response message providing any information generated by the 
character activities, abstract combat results based on my analysis of all the 
turns, and any other relevant information I feel is appropriate base on game 
play. Then the whole cycle begins again. 

Is it any clearer? 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:58:06 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 

In a message dated 4/29/99 1:52:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jamstar@earthlink.net writes:

<< 
 One would think that 'Marine Country' would also have gyms that break down 
for 
 easy storage, but that still doesn't stop the problem of having trained 
 killers sitting around going stir crazy.  The Foreign Legion used to call 
this 
 'le cafard', 'the bug', and claimed it killed more troops than combat.  I'd 
 say, and this is just a WAG, that the Imperium's Marines were tranked a bit 
to 
 keep their aggression under wraps until absolutely needed, then given the 
 antidote just before getting packed into the assault capsuals for their 
drop.  
 Just my opinion...
  >>

		I think that this is where Fast Drug comes in really handy.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:03:01 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions

Some problems I've noticed with GURPS Traveller spacecraft.  For some reason
SJ Games seems to like putting a drawing and stats in one book and the
deckplan in another book.  This is a definite pain, as all the data on a
particular ship is spread out over several books. As an example: the
Broadsword, described in GT, drawing and stats. Deckplans in Star Merc. Also
deckplans have way too little detail.  We get to guess which staterooms have
two bunks (one on top of the other) and which have a single. Which
staterooms are for crew and which are for passengers.  I know that a
particular ship (PC's) might decide to use different arrangements from the
standard layout, but the Naval Architect who drew up the plans for the ship
had an idea of how she wanted it set up. Let's see that as a starting point.
Then the PC's or GM can customize to their hearts content.

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:19:05 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: [OT]Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509

>
>> Did they ever release a dubbed or subtitled version of 'The Potempkin'?
>
>Yes.  Watched it in college.
>
>

They show it on our multi-cultural TV station in Oz almost yearly
(subtitled)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:33:03 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: NYPD uniforms (long)

On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:00:46 -0400, Sethkimmel@aol.com

>I liked the light blue shirts; especially the short sleeved summer uniform. 
>It was comfortable, even with a ballistic vest underneath it...

The dark blue also comes in a lightweight short sleeve version
for summer, and there haven't been any complaints about them
being too hot with the vest underneath.

>I would have figured the PBA wouldn't have been happy, as all the police 
>officers would have to have purchased new shirts. At a minimum of five (two 
>summer, two winter, and one dress...), it's expensive, or has the city 
>finally agreed to buy uniforms and weapons instead of just giving an 
>inadequate uniform check. My first year, my equipment cost $3500 US dollars 
>in 1986...

I don't know what the current annual uniform allowance is, but
they still issue a check.  However, I believe that the firearm
and vest are now issued while you're a cadet and are sent out to
field training (a squad or two of grey shirts with a sergeant
play cop at a precinct for a month or so).  Second vests or
firearms are out of your own pocket (including the uniform
allowance), and I believe that there was a one-time special
increase in the uniform allowance to permit the uniform
changeover without causing undue hardship.

The PBA supported the change.

>Ob Trav: Here's what I bought roughly, so you could use it for NPC's, or 
>maybe in the ship's locker

Pretty good list; the hat with the ear flaps seems to be gone,
and, as you mention, the nine has replaced the revolver.  The
uniforms are no longer mandatory dry cleaning, but they'd better
look as though they were.

The baseball cap is only an option for bicycle patrol and some
special units (like the SWAT teams); everyone else uses the
traditional eight-pointed hat.

There are two choices for the sweater, either a British Special
Forces style or a turtleneck.  The turtleneck is held to be
warmer, but the BSF is considered more stylish.

I'm not sure, but while the Glock is generally the nine of
choice, I believe that either the Sig-Sauer or the Ruger is also
an authorized choice; the other one (Sig or Ruger, whichever
isn't authorized) had some serious problems with the mechanism.

This list will cover the basics; different departments will have
different requirements (for example, most British constabularies
will not include the firearm, and an agency like the FBI will not
include the uniform).
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:26:32 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

>> >Obtrav:  The Ramparts need pylons or weapon bays (small ones) if they are
>> >going to carry cheap expendibles for the Close Air Support mission; or do
>> >they just blast every target with lasers?
>>
>> Hmmm, this harks back to the space- vs atmospheric fighter debate!
>>
>> Maybe here is a reasonable example of how a multi-role TL 15 atmospheric
>> fighter could be more capable than a specialised TL 15 space fighter. And
>> probably shows how it would cost more.
>
>The Rampart's laser in BL (and Striker II evaluation) can shred the armor on
>any Imperial AFV except the front on the Heavy Grav Tank IIRC.  It does have
>USL grapples for space missiles.  Why waste em on grav vehicles when the
>laser has unlimited shots and is just as effective?

Missiles on small vessels were not "really" allowed by the rules until late
in the T:TNE era.  For the Rampart to have missiles in MT (or CT) either
the rules must be "interpreted" or the COACC rules used (in MT).

The problem with a laser (especially the fixed forward mount of the
Rampart) is that if you can shoot him, he can shoot you.

Of course, the problem with missiles (smaller ones anyway) is that if you
can see it, you can generally shoot it down in the era of point defense
lasers.

The way to win a ground battle at high tech levels is either to overwhelm
missile defenses, or have better armor than the other guys weapons can
penetrate (generally indicating a significant TL advantage).  Sensors at
the ranges were talking about are probably very hard to jam or defeat, and
are proabbly pretty quick to get a lock.

The CT/MT/Striker Grav Tank model seems to have big honking piles of armor
and weapons playing hide and seek on a large scale battlefield, hoping not
to stumble over the stealthy infantry with their short range but capable
weapons.  I think that a rampart type fighter would need to keep to cover
in order to avoid getting zapped by, at worst, the second grav tank it
encounters.

My opinion is that the Rampart type would be employed to zap the infantry,
not the grav tanks.  VS infantry it would require a lot of smaller seeking
missiles, not anti-ship missiles.  Note that the rampart doesn't really
want to be in direct view of the Infantry either, but probably it would
take a lucky infantryman to mission kill the fighter (destroying it is
almost out of the question).

Just some thoughts.

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:32:38 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: The Imperium as a planetary owner

Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:45:23 +1000, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au

>I would tend to agree that the Imperium, at least by 1100, would own a few
>worlds directly. However, you might consider that this is right against the
>original philosophy of only controlling the "space _between_ worlds".
>
>Anyone with a reconciliation? Or should this have come out as part of the
>Debate over a new Imperial Charter/Warrant?

Remember, this is a slogan rather than a constitutional provisions.
The Imperium does, as a default policy, let local worlds rule themselves.
However, event will lead to exceptions (depot worlds, worlds owned
by a noble, etc., recently conquered worlds, etc.)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:42:35 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Connection between Norris and Strephon

On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:43:19 -0400, Steve Daniels
<stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:


>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>> Norris and Strephon both have the same middle name: Aledon. Hmm...

>Isn't it Aella?

Actually, I think that Strephon is Strephon Aledon Alkhalikoi,
and Norris is Norris Aella Aledon.  And ISTR that there _is_ a
family connection there, somewhere.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:38:41 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

- -----Original Message-----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs


>Is there any source about what the state of music in the Imperium is
>in the early 12th Century (Imperial calendar)? There's the above reference
>to "Amp Rock", but what else is there? This is obviously a Solomani
influence.
>What kind of music is generally associated with the Vilani? The Vargr?
>The Aslan?
>
>(In the G:T campaign I've just started, the Vargr engineer (NPC) has a
>fondness for Vargr opera... think of Klingon opera from Star Trek, but
>off-key and with a lot more howling...)


On my site (which is linked in my sig, just keep going down) there's a
section on culture. In the section on culture, there is a piece called "Live
on Vland" about a Woodstock-like event on the Vilani homeworld. All of the
bands are Vilani and there are little bits about the popular culture of the
Vilani.

I've also got a write-up on kaadmukim, or "interactive music," which even
allows a new method of DJing which is quite popular among the hipsters of
the Imperium.

The best part? Despite my heretical views, most of my articles are *Free of
Canon Busting Material*! ;^)

Anyway, I hope you enjoy it and stuff (make sure to check back by tomorrow,
for an interview with the frontman for Khakunasum.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:39:50 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Vilani expansion

My apologies if this has been answered before...My knowledge of the TU isn't as vast and deep as some longtime TML members :)
Did the Vilani expand to the Spinward marches subsector? In my campaign the players are exploring a Five Sisters planet where they encounter a stone age TL 0 tribe...I was wondering if I could make them long lost descendants of Vilani explorers..Just wondering?

TIA

Mike

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:46:37 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs


>You ever see John M. Ford's 'Road Show', one of the wilder Amber Zones,
first published in JTAS #23?  The characters become roadies for an amp rock
band named Veedback for a one-year concert tour.  *EVERYBODY* (rabid fans,
rock-hating vigilanties, ticket scalpers, video pirates, *pirate* pirates
bent on kidnapping them for ransom) is going to be after the characters.
Veedback has the highes LRI ('Lost Roadies Index') of any band on the Rim
concert circuit.  <grin>  Makes a long ticket on a Tech 6 swamp world look
like prom night at East Tulare High.  <grin>  As John mentioned, rock and
roll *NEVER* forgets!!!!!


Alas, I have not. It sounds like a fun adventure though. I'll definately
keep it in mind as I pop around the various sites that have vintage RPG
materials. Danke.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:47:03 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

At 05:26 PM 4/29/99 -0400, you wrote:
>The CT/MT/Striker Grav Tank model seems to have big honking piles of armor
>and weapons playing hide and seek on a large scale battlefield, hoping not
>to stumble over the stealthy infantry with their short range but capable
>weapons.  I think that a rampart type fighter would need to keep to cover
>in order to avoid getting zapped by, at worst, the second grav tank it
>encounters.
>
>My opinion is that the Rampart type would be employed to zap the infantry,
>not the grav tanks.  VS infantry it would require a lot of smaller seeking
>missiles, not anti-ship missiles.  Note that the rampart doesn't really
>want to be in direct view of the Infantry either, but probably it would
>take a lucky infantryman to mission kill the fighter (destroying it is
>almost out of the question).

Dunno about older systems, but under GT, the TL12 Rampart's Laser can never
penetrate most of a MBTs armor (Max damage: 5d100(2)=3000(2), so it can
punch through at most 6000 pts of DR, TL12 tank has DR 25,000 front, 10,000
body and turret, 5,000 cupola).  The only place it has a chance at is the
cupola.  OTOH, the Tank's main gun has a max range of only 50 miles in an
atmosphere, so it can probably never hit the Rampart, either...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:48:34 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: drop tanks are recoverable! 

> more drop tanks in order to get back to the original set. Of course
> the more likely scenario is someone else comes along, salvages them
> and then resells them. This might account for the relatively cheap
> cost of drop tanks compared to starship hulls.

The only thing to consider is, if their isn't a salvage ship near by to
collect the tanks, they will probably be lost in space. Consider, they are
already 100d away... and there's a lot of space out their. Another idea
could be that  a beacon was put on the tanks, that would make them easier to
recover... and I don't think it should make a significant change in the
price.

You idea is the only way I can see drop tanks being as *cheap* as they are.
I think the actual manufacture of dTanks is quiet expensive, but they recoop
their costs by re-renting the tanks. They could even pay independants to
recover the tanks... minor fee to make up for the costs of actually owning
and operating the recovery ships. Of course, in the higher traffic ports,
the companies would have their own recovery teams.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:06:58 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Earth's Starport?

On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:22:09 -0400, Tascelt@aol.com wrote:

>I thought I saw in an old traveller book someplace very different stats.  I 
>could swear we're not a size 8.  Every geography book I've ever seen says 
>"60% of the earth's surface is water" so that would be a 6.  rests seems 
>about right.  As far as starport...I'd have to say we aint got one.

No, you're misinterpreting.

The size refers to the diameter of the planet in miles.  Earth is
7927 miles in diameter; that's within delta of 8000 miles, so
size 8.  

The atmosphere is standard (possibly verging on standard-tainted,
but...), so atmo 6.  

Close to 3/4 of the surface (not 60%) is covered with water, so
hydro 7.  

Population is billions, but less than ten billion, so pop 9.  

Government is balkanized, gov 7.  

Law level varies with location; pick it.  

Tech level is a little harder to describe; take it as given that
we're TL7 verging on TL8, with pockets down at TL4 or lower, and
research in some areas experimenting with high TL8 or TL9 or
higher.

A D starport offers unrefined fuel and limited services; I'd say
that if the fuel requirement were eliminated, many international
airports could qualify as B or C equivalents on the basis of
services alone.  Jet fuel probably qualifies as unrefined; water
certainly does, so I'd say that any international airport would
qualify at the D level.

Terra D-86797?-7
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:59:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

I was going to reply to this one offlist, but I feel that the point is
important enough to make in the public forum.  Feel free to flame me for
wasting bandwidth:

Terry <jcarlino@home.com> writes:
> Subject: Re: Gun Control.
> 
> >A gun it's an equalizer.
> 
> Maybe I don't want "men" to be equal. Maybe I don't want some 19 year old
> legal gun owner to blow my kid away because he used bad judgement and was
> rude. Maybe I don't want a minority who disagrees with some public policy
> that the majority has agreed to to be able to take up arms against us. Maybe
> I don't trust "YOU" to be armed. I don't personally know all these honest
> citizens who want to bear arms. How do **I** know that they are trust
> worthy? Because they tell me so? Because you tell me so?
> 
> And that's the real problem. I know that I can be trusted with a firearm,
> but can you be?  The gist of the argument is always between those who are
> familiar with guns and comfortable with them, and those who are either
> unfamiliar with them and would rather they didn't exist at all.  Also can be
> spilt between those who don't trust government as an institution and those
> who do. After all if it's MY government, MY army, MY police, what do **I**
> need a gun for. On the other hand if it's SOMEONE else's government, SOMEONE
> else's army, SOMEONE else's police it's a different story.

This, alas, is the current mindset of a predominantly democratic, liberal
U.S. Government.  We trust *US* with guns, but we don't trust anyone else.
The problem with a free society is that everyone has to be equally free,
or no one truly is.  A government is designed (ideally) to serve the
population, not to be served by it.  Our founding fathers knew that
governments can become masters rather than servants.  That's why they
drafted the Bill of Rights to include the 2nd Amendment.  You say it's
YOUR government, YOUR army, and YOUR police.  Fine.  Give them an order,
but don't hold your breath waiting for it to be obeyed.  Police depts.
and armys are methods of expressing national policy (internally and
externally.)  That national policy should be an extension of the will
of the people.  Current events would suggest that this is becoming
less true every day.  (Everybody who really wants to be involved in
the war in Kosovo, raise your hands.)

Besides being a lot of fun, firearms are truly the ultimate "eqaulizer".
While you may bemoan the "19 year old legal gun owner" who shoots your
kid, how to you justify disarming the 75 year-old widow who needs to
defend herself in her home when three hoodlums break in and threaten
her with knives and crowbars?

When someone says, "Maybe I don't trust *YOU* to be armed", you demonstrate
exactly why everyone should *have* the right to keep and bare arms.  No
one individual, or small, select group of individuals, should have the
power to take away a citizens single best means of self-defense.  If any
person or group can take that away, then they can take *anything* away.
And since they've already taken your guns, you can't very well try to
stop them, can you?

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:01:05 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Fighting Crime in the Imperium

- -----Original Message-----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 10:09 AM
Subject: Re:


>Interesting concept. Mind if I use it my my GT campaign? (The tiny robots,
>I mean.)


No problem whatsoever. Feel free to do so. That's the reason I typed it up.
In fact, I got my own creative juices flowing and I've started a write-up on
crime fighting tools for my website.

>I would imagine that all of the different methods you describe can be
>found in the Imperium, since different worlds would have their own ways
>of punishing convicted criminals. The Imperium itself, for crimes offworld
>or between worlds (eg, piracy, smuggling) maintains some prisons. Of
>course, the punishment for piracy is a one-way trip out an airlock while
>in space...


I can see that.

Another question might be something like: What approaches do different
cultures favor? Are there Vargr "trials"? If so, what are they like? How
about the Vilani? How do they deal with their criminals?

>Vargr are more likely to be raiders and pirates than mobsters, but it
>is feasible.

There is actually some text on this in one of the TNE books. "The Regency
Sourcebook" I think. At least that's the one that makes the most sense. I
got the distinct flavor of the Irish mobs from these guys (they secretly
send money back home to help with the post-Virus reconstruction).

When I read the book "Donnie Brasco," I couldn't help feeling like I was
reading about *human* Vargr. Seriously. The New York mob in the 70s seems to
already be close to the Vargr mindset. I always imagined that a Vargr mob
would be something like that... with the fast forward button down.

>Vilani mobsters, certainly. Aslan crime? Sure, but I can
>see it organized akin to an Aslani clan, with a high-ranking female
>looking after the money end of things...


I've always had the vision that Vilani crime was very Yakuza like, where
they enjoy a sort of semi-legit status. I imagine that they are often in the
employ of Vilani megacorps.

It's the Aslan that have always thrown me for a loop though. I haven't been
able to find a real "hook" to hang organized crime on. I can imagine what it
would be like, but not where it would fit in.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:20:33 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: low tech weapons

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 7:57 AM
Subject: low tech weapons


>It wasn't religious, it was maintain-your-powerbase.  The Catholic Church
>didn't like black powder weapons for the same reason they had earlier
>fought against crossbows.


It may have been a "maintain your powerbase" idea at the high level, but
they used religious reasoning as a front, so my point still stands.

>It removed power from the landed & titled Nobles who had armor that
>previous protected them weapons peasents use in attempts to stop the nobles
>from taking their daughters for a bit of R&R.


True. Even taking that into account, I was trying to get at a reason why all
of the high-tech goodies most characters take for granted would be
unavailable.

>OB-Trav:  You can get the peasents to give you a bunch of useless-to-them
>stuff for a case of modern rifles.


There are millions of ObTravs that you can build off of the concept.

A religion believes in the holy, healing power of light. As such, laser
weapons are not only outlawed, they're actually seen as blasphemous and
obscene devices. After all, a laser perverts the holy effect of light.

A planet on which most of the human inhabitants are born with above average
eyesight. They fight duels at long range and find the use of scopes to be
*very* dishonorable. Possibly even punishable by death.

A planet with a severe crime problem takes a unique approach to weapons. All
legal guns have a very rapid rate of fire, but are all low penetration. They
often use plastic bullets or fragmenting pellets. Combats can be very
exciting "John Woo" style affairs with a very low degree of property damage.
Fatalities are relatively rare.

One planet markets weapons to their youth. It's not uncommon to see plastic
firearms in designer colors with cartoon characters on the grips.  Ammo can
be bought in the candy aisle.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #530
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 29 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 531



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Space Station
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
HG to GURPS conversion
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Copyright 
Re: low tech weapons
RE: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: A good one for Murphy's Rules
Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Copyright 
Re: Super spinal mounts (was Re: Drop Tanks)
Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
Re: Copyright 
Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
SSDS
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: low tech weapons
Shipboard recreation facilities was Re: General Hooker and his friends
Re: drop tanks are recoverable!
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Two questions
Re: low tech weapons 
Re: Vilani expansion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:25:22 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Space Station

>I think it might be more than a few decades. What do you mean when
>you say low acceleration? Say you get the comet up to 10% of the
>speed of light. It will take a decade to get 1 light year in. He was
>mentioning a 10 parsec rift. 32.6 light years. You would have
>to get one of those comets to within, say, 3 parsecs of the other side
>for a J3 ship to make it. That means the longest one will  be in place
>in no shorter than 228 years, not counting acceleration and
>deceleration once in place. No matter how you cut it, the time will
>still end up kind of long term.

You use low acceleration so that you can continually accelerate without
using all of your fuel to power the maneuvering drive. With continuous
acceleration I expect that a much more substantial velocity should be
possible:60% C or 70% C. A small amount of time dilation should be
insignificant. At 70% C you're talking maybe 45 years (not counting any time
dilation). You don't bother to decelerate. Every three years or so you just
sling out another comet.  Once you get on the other side you sling a few
back the other way.

Expensive? More so than most routes. But cheaper than tankers.

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:40:05 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

At 02:59 PM 4/29/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I was going to reply to this one offlist, but I feel that the point is
>important enough to make in the public forum.  Feel free to flame me for
>wasting bandwidth:
<<snip>>
>When someone says, "Maybe I don't trust *YOU* to be armed", you demonstrate
>exactly why everyone should *have* the right to keep and bare arms.  No
>one individual, or small, select group of individuals, should have the
>power to take away a citizens single best means of self-defense.  If any
>person or group can take that away, then they can take *anything* away.
>And since they've already taken your guns, you can't very well try to
>stop them, can you?

Mark,

I don't always agree with your views on Traveller, but I have to say that
you said far more eloquently than I ever could preciscely what needed to be
said.  Bravo!

PS:  Thanks for the backup on the AK/Tec banning post.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:44:15 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: HG to GURPS conversion

I'm trying to make sense of some HG designs ( I don't have HG.  Only FFS2
and GT), and have the following questions:

When the book lists a laser battery, so they mean one 1dt laser?  One
turret worth of lasers (3)?  One bay?  Something else?

What's an energy battery?

What's a repulsor battery?

Defenses:  How much DR should a heavy pierced plate hull provide?  What
about a NOTB 666 meson screen.  What's the range of an Absalom Nuclear
Damper?  A Finnalians one?

On a related note, can anyone post or point me to a decoder for the HG USP
(2nd ed. preferably)

For anyone that's curious, I'm working on converting an AHL...

Thanks,



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:49:48 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:02:30 -0700, Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
>Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still connected, and pumping
>LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang outside the jump
>field? In this case the explosive bolts are only used when the ship
>actually jumps,and the tanks are discarded into jump space.

Then the question is how can you jump with drop tanks right
next to you, but not with anything else.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:49:28 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright 

Okay, so Vilani copyright laws impede technological innovation and the
development of new devices. And that's why there's only been a 2 GTL jump in
1000 years (from GTL 10 to GTL 12). What's stopping the Darrians from
re-establishing GTL 13? Why hasn't the Zhodani Consulate bypassed the
Imperium technologically?

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:50:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: low tech weapons

On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:

> There are millions of ObTravs that you can build off of the concept.

An uncontacted culture which has risen to a fairly high tech level, but
the idea of firearms has simply never happened. Nobody thought of it. Or
maybe the world's composition is such that the chemistry to create
firearms is impossible or very very difficult there.
State of the art bows (perhaps crossbows) are carried in every police grav
car  ;)

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:54:34 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

At 02:59 PM 4/29/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I was going to reply to this one offlist, but I feel that the point is
>important enough to make in the public forum.  Feel free to flame me
>for
>wasting bandwidth:
<<snip>>
>When someone says, "Maybe I don't trust *YOU* to be armed", you
>demonstrate
>exactly why everyone should *have* the right to keep and bare arms.  No
>one individual, or small, select group of individuals, should have the
>power to take away a citizens single best means of self-defense.  If
>any
>person or group can take that away, then they can take *anything* away.
>And since they've already taken your guns, you can't very well try to
>stop them, can you?

Hear, hear!

ObTrav - Do you think that those TEDs could have come into power if more
sophonts had FGMPs?


 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:54:56 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A good one for Murphy's Rules

- ----------
> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: A good one for Murphy's Rules
> Date: Thursday, 29 April, 1999 8:04 AM
> 
> Tom Schoene types:
> >Also, even the smallest gun does more damage than a large knife wielded
by
> >a person of average strength.  
> 
>    Any game systems that implements this false statement deserves a spot
in
> Murphy's Rules.
> Take your pick. A shot through the thigh with a .22 short or let Joe
> Generio take a swing with a Kuri.
> 
To be fair, let's let someone taking a random shot with that .22, rather
than putting it in a relatively safe location (although you could hit the
femoral and bleed out in seconds)  

My first response was a bit oversimplified.  Here's the detailed version.
Base damage for pistols is better (1d6+1 vs. 1d6-2, min 1).  However,
knives (and other blades) multiply damage penetrating armor (x1.5 for
swings, x2 for stabs), small pistols don't.  Also, bullet damage from any
limb wound is limited by a blowthrough rule, a .22 in the leg will almost
never kill you, but knife wounds are less limited.  

The overall calculation is that it will be easier to hit someone with the
pistol at really close range.  The damage done is going to depend on
several variables, and hit location is going to be critical.  (That's
pretty realistic, I think) 

Unless you've actually looked at the rule, I'd really hesitate to label it
a Murphy.  Don't blame me for a poor explanation. GURPS may overvalue guns
at low damage levels, but it's hardly unique in this regard.  In fact, I'm
hard pressed to think of a system that doesn't.  


Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:04:19 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions

>Juliean Galak wrote:

>> And on that note, please have lot's and lot's of pictures.  All sorts of
>> them.  Deckplans, rendered shots (No amount of Jesse DeGraff's art is too
>> much...) line drawings, whatever.  I'd really like to see at least one
>> exterior shot and one set of deckplans for each ship.

>OOOoooohhh!  Color plates! Color Plates!

Loren, if you're listening, do not...DO NOT...put any color plates you might
decide to use in the middle of the ship design section. It's been done! ;)

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:07:05 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:49:28 -0600, "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
>Actually, I did some analysis and came up with maybe a 25% advantage over
>existing Jump-4 designs -- you may have missed that post.  The problem is,
>that is still only half the difference between express (Jump-4+) and
>conventional freight rates. Since most of the costs in a drop tank
>operation (tug rental, etc.) are relatively fixed, this advantage will be
>correspondingly smaller at lower jump numbers.

I started plugging ships into my spreadsheet.  I get a 24% increase
in cargo/passenger space for a free trader.  My jump-4 ship got
a 183% increase.  Furthermore, without drop tanks the amount
of cargo goes steadily down and the price goes steadily up
so that, if you account for the fact that a faster ship can
deliver more cargo, you peak out at about J-2 as the most
optimal.  With drop tanks this all changes.  You cargo changes
a little and you price doesn't go up as fast as your speed, so
the most efficient is jump-6.  There realy is no reason why
all long distance cargos wouldn't go jump-6.  (Now I think
that J-4 X-boats aren't a problem with the existing traveller
universe, but in this case it would be).

I should be noted that 25% is easily enough to drive non-drop
tank ships out of business.

>Rather than spend time and energy debating why drop tanks *can't* work the
>way they're supposed to, why not figure out how they *can*?

I'll tell you my issue....

The problem is when we get into a situation where the player
reads the effect and says "great, I want to be able to use this
with collapable tanks".  You give him an arbitrary reason, that
doesn't follow from the described effect, why you can push
them away, but you can't pull them in.
Then he says, "well, can I use these capacitors with my weapons.
You give him an arbitrary reason, that doesn't follow from the
described effect, why you can use that energy for one purpose
and not for another.
Then he says, "Well, I want to set up a jump station so my
ships can jump w/out fuel".  You give him an arbitrary reason,
that doesn't follow from the described effect, why they
have to be disposable."
The he puts aside the other things he was thinking of doing
(like reducing jump drive cost and volume by moving the power
plant to the jump stations and just transmitting power) and
thinks, "if they didn't want ships to use so much fuel, then
why didn't they just design the background that way?"

Now you have alternative explination of how jump tanks work.
(like dropping them in jump space).  But these invalidate the
TNS entry as well, it seems really hokey that you can't jump
with anything nearby _except_ if it is a fuel tank, and, most
importantly, I believe that if you set up something fundamental
like needing a lot of fuel to jump and then later on have a
technology appear that get around this for one type of use, and
one type of use only, it just feels hokey and contrived (since
it is).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright 

On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, jcarlino wrote:

> Okay, so Vilani copyright laws impede technological innovation and the
> development of new devices. And that's why there's only been a 2 GTL jump in
> 1000 years (from GTL 10 to GTL 12). What's stopping the Darrians from
> re-establishing GTL 13? Why hasn't the Zhodani Consulate bypassed the
> Imperium technologically?

Pez. Gets em every time.  ;)

Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:15:13 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Super spinal mounts (was Re: Drop Tanks)

From: Joseph Kimball <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
>Readers of the Lensmen series by EE Doc Smith will recognize these as
>"Primaries."  When originally used, they were the final gasp of what are
>essentially orbital monitors, and the single shot slagged the entire
>monitor satellite.  It was later that the Space Patrol scientists were
>able to design a switch that let them use all the power in one shot
>without slagging the whole ship.  Of course it did slag the weapon, so
>they were one shot items even then.

It seems somehow appropriate that a reference like this to the Lensman
series was made by someone with the name "Kimball"

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:20:41 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

<< I got it for a quarter as my game dealer was cleaning out his T4 stuff to
 make way for G:T. After looking it over I think it still was overpriced. :)

 Terry C >>

>Were do you live that they'll sell stuff that cheep?
>- -Stephen

Newport News VA. But like I said he was cleaning out. Most of his T4 stuff
sat on the shelf for months and months, without selling.  Strangely enough
he can't keep GURPS Traveller stuff on the shelves.  You don't think quality
could have anything to do with it, do you?

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:32:31 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright 

- -----Original Message-----
From: jcarlino <jcarlino@home.com>
To: 'Traveller Mail Group' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: Copyright


>Okay, so Vilani copyright laws impede technological innovation and the
>development of new devices. And that's why there's only been a 2 GTL jump
in
>1000 years (from GTL 10 to GTL 12). What's stopping the Darrians from
>re-establishing GTL 13? Why hasn't the Zhodani Consulate bypassed the
>Imperium technologically?


Hey, I've got the same question, and I've asked it before!

However, now I shall commence with the handwaves:

Compared to the Imperium, the Darrians are quite tiny. They may not have the
proper base of scientists and engineers to make the proper breakthroughs
again at the moment. They might be missing just one discipline or one
breakthrough. Most of the industrialized nations had problems building
"true" next generation infantry weapons from the 60s until very recently,
because they just didn't have the base of engineers and skilled machinists
that were shuffling around in prior decades. The advent of Computer Aided
Design and automated manufacturing has given new life to that particular
segment of the industry.

Actually, computers are an excellent example of that all around. Computers
have had an amazing impact all across the board. The face of
mass-communication has changed. The face of manufacturing and engineering
has changed. I'm hard pressed to think of some market or industry where
computers have had little impact.

So, there might be a stumbling block that the Darrians have *forgotten* some
piece of technology or scientific discipline (or even just a philosophical
or mental discipline). Programmers from the former Soviet Union were sought
after for a time because they were much better at getting the most out of
their antiquated machines. The Americans lived in a culture where the next,
faster computer came out before they had to get creative to squeeze more
speed out. Maybe something like this is holding the Darrian's back. Maybe
they don't have good enough programmers to squeeze the kind of processing
power out of their machines that their ancestors could.

The Zhodani are another kettle of fish entirely. If I remember correctly,
they've got a tendency to 'reprogram' free-spirits and free-thinkers. Maybe
those very same impulses are the ones that set geniuses apart from the
average schmoe. I know that my electronics teacher was quite fond of the
monumental physics personalities. At the time when I took his class, he had
been reading a book on the concept of "januvian thinking." If I can remember
my conversations with him on the subject correctly, it described how their
approaches to problems were *vastly* different from other peoples'. It might
be unorthodox thinking in that vein that the Zhodani find troubling and send
to get re-educated.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:41:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

In a message dated 99-04-29 19:24:21 EDT, you write:

<< Newport News VA. But like I said he was cleaning out. Most of his T4 stuff
 sat on the shelf for months and months, without selling.  Strangely enough
 he can't keep GURPS Traveller stuff on the shelves.  You don't think quality
 could have anything to do with it, do you?
 
 Terry C >>

Naa:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:44:27 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: SSDS

I have been playing around with the SSDS Beta and I can't seem to get any 
ship that is leagle, unless I though the mass figures out the window, am I 
doing something wrong or does it need fixing?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:43:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:02:30 -0700, Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
> >Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still connected, and pumping
> >LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang outside the jump
> >field? In this case the explosive bolts are only used when the ship
> >actually jumps,and the tanks are discarded into jump space.
> 
> Then the question is how can you jump with drop tanks right
> next to you, but not with anything else.

IMTU, *ANYTHING* inside the jump bubble goes with them.  One of my old groups 
that I GM'ed took a chunk of a missile with them when they jumped.  It banged 
against the hull about 2 secs into the jump, making a loud noise, but not 
exploding.  Shook the party up a bit, but did no damage other than cosmetic, 
as the bubble cut off the missile's power supply that it needed to detonate.

They never did figure out what that thump was.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:55:59 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:28:05 -0400 (EDT), Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
>I'm not sure I'd use the phrase "all of the energy from the hydrogen being
>extracted". It suggests a total conversion of mass to energy, which Ian
>takes as a starting point for his reducto ad absurdum argument.

Well, I was someone who once maintained that there wasn't a problem
with simply using all the fuel for energy for jump.  I must now
way that I think Ian is right.  (Though I do think that linking
the burning of fuel to the act of jumping, so you can burn the fuel
without either jumping or melting the reaction, works).

I think it is also unfair to call it a reducto ad absurdum argument.
The passage says it is burned for fuel.  It even says it can be
stored in capacitors (which can be used to power weapons).  He
is mearly pointing out the consequences of that.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:46:32 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: low tech weapons

In a message dated 99-04-29 18:54:28 EDT, you write:

<< An uncontacted culture which has risen to a fairly high tech level, but
 the idea of firearms has simply never happened. Nobody thought of it. Or
 maybe the world's composition is such that the chemistry to create
 firearms is impossible or very very difficult there.
 State of the art bows (perhaps crossbows) are carried in every police grav
 car  ;) >>

Yeah, with homming arrows:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:01:05 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Shipboard recreation facilities was Re: General Hooker and his friends

>Library (gee for a crew of 5000 you'd think they'd have decent
>library right?  It SUCKED!!!  The area with books was about 15x15'  I've a
>better selection, and probably more books!  Needless to say, I had a locker
>full of books.)

Just goes to show how things kind differ from ship to ship. John F. Kennedy
(The last conventionally powered carrier) has a huge library, with probably
thousands of books. Maybe 1000 sqft.

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:18:05 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: drop tanks are recoverable!

Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:50:35 PDT, "will richards" <willrichards@hotmail.com>

>First off this is IMTU! and does anyone want to guess how long this
>thread will rage?

Yeah, but the gun control thread is making it look good....
:-)

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:18:26 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

>Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:42:10 -0500 (CDT)
>From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

>Not really.
>GT fuel tanks cost too much to keep a lot of them lying around so it will
>really be up to the lines to make use of them.

Actually it doesn't.  In the GT design system, the cost of cargo
space is much lower than the cost of fuel tanks, as is the cost
of simple armor against micrometeorites.  When you take them
with you, they are, by necessity, only used once per jump (say
10 days).  If you leave them around, then other ships can use
them (and you might, if you got into vehicles) use cheaper tanks
since they don't represent a hazard to the ship while it is
travelling in system or in jump.

Lets look at system that is so marginal that it _only_ gets
Free Traders as it total shipping.  A Free Trader gets 24% more cargo,
but if you account for the drop in ship price, it gains
a 49% increase in revenue per $ invested in the ship.
That more than pays for the drop tanks hanging around.  If
you can get even one ship a day, then you save 90% of that
price.

Of course you have to deliver fuel to the tanks.
To make the tanks part of a tanker ships (you just pull
your fuel right from the ship), that adds 14 MCr to the
cost, amortizing over a 40 year period, that a thousand
credits a day.  (Salaries add a small amount to that).
If a Free trader is willing to include a 24% increase in cost
(which will we assume is just mortgage costs since they
are the biggest cost, about 3,722 Cr/day) then he is
willing to pay 930 Cr/day for tankers.  This means
that if you get 2 or more ships a day, you come out
ahead.  That puts us down around a BTN of 6.5.  You
would have to increase by an order of magnitude to
qualify as a minor route.  Almost every world will
have some drop tank service, even if it a tanker ship
waiting around.
[I am assuming that the 100Cr/ton cost for fuel at the
jump point only applies to ports with orbital components]

>	There's nothing in FT that could possibly be used to "prove" drop
>tanks don't exist.  FT is based on economic principles and the GT vehicle
>design rules.  We didn't make up any of our prices out of thin air, they are
>all based on costs spelled out in GURPS rules on vehicle design and crew
>pay.

I understand that the log scale of Far Trader can handle this,
but it is a change from the default situation described and I'm
not clear that a GM won't have to come up with a new distance
mod table (unless that isn't based on the assumption about the
average jump distance?) and a new cargo rate.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:27:09 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Two questions

>> Rebellion Sourcebook (IIRC) mentions that Dulinor's brother was some
honcho
>> Admiral of the Illelish fleet.  While this may have been arranged as part
>> of Dulinor's plot, it may also suggest a situation where the civil and
>> military authorities are sometimes both controlled by the same noble
>> families.

>Admiral Hutara IIRC.  In the "real" universe, he declares for Dulinor
>following his return for Capital and brings the Ilelish fleet w/ him.  In
G:T
>he got "retired" after someone played around w/ his head, apparently.
>Ilelish should be on the verge of exploding anyways, though it'll be very
>interesting to see what developments occur in G:T.

I didn't get the play around with his head part. I just figured that
Dulinor's plot was compromised.  INI or S3 took out Dulinor and his brother
who was a co-conspirator was "retired" in recognition of his long Imperial
service and because some of his subordinates (who might or might not have
been in on it) wouldn't stand for his just disappearing or having his ship
blow up. IN officers are just completely unreasonable about such things.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:09:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: low tech weapons 

> In a message dated 99-04-29 18:54:28 EDT, you write:
> 
> << An uncontacted culture which has risen to a fairly high tech level, but
>  the idea of firearms has simply never happened. Nobody thought of it. Or
>  maybe the world's composition is such that the chemistry to create
>  firearms is impossible or very very difficult there.
>  State of the art bows (perhaps crossbows) are carried in every police grav
>  car  ;) >>
> 
> Yeah, with homming arrows:)

*OUCH*!!!!!!!!!  Shades of 'Green Arrow'!!!!!!!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:28:48 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vilani expansion

Hi Mike,

I don't think that you'd be off base by placing a lost colony of Vilani in 
Five Sisters.  Vanejen, in the Rhylanor subsector, was described in "Research 
Station Gamma" as having originally been settled by Vilani c. -4000, just 
prior to the Interstellar Wars.  If they got to one side of the Marches, it 
wouldn't be stretching probability to place another colony on the opposite 
side.  The Vilani were at Jump 2 at that time, and could have traversed the 
space from Vanejen by several routes.  There would have been no interstellar 
states to bar their way, the Sword Worlds were uninhabited, and the Darrians 
were still primitives.  However, I doubt that such a world, effectively 
isolated from the rest of the Vilani Imperium would have been an official 
colony.  It would be more likey that it would have been settled by people who 
desired to escape the grasp of Imperial rule, for reasons of their own.

Hope this helps.  Just to be curious, what world is this?

Ken

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #531
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 29 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 532



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Imperial Starports

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:50:51 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Imperial Starports

I got a few queries about Imperial starports. 

1)	Does the Imperium control all starports in a system or just the best
one on the mainworld? If they  control all, does this include F, G & H? 
2)	Can someone who evades the local customs/police etc. claim asylum in
an Imperial Starport, or would the STA boss simply pass 'em or would it be
up to him/her as circumstances dictate? 
3)	Would imperial marines be garrisoned at the ports as security, or
would it just be tendered by STA to a local security company (or do the STA
have their own security forces)?
4)	Would an imperial governor (do all imperial world's have them?) have
his/her/its residence at the port? If so, would he/she/it have a bunch of
marines as guards?
5)	Would the imperial navy have crew stationed at port
batteries/screens?
6)	Would people travelling in sub or small craft from port to elsewhere
on the planet, need to go through customs first?

Any ideas? Comments?

Michael Hughes


	-----Original Message-----
	From:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
[SMTP:owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com]
	Sent:	Wednesday, 28 April 1999 21:09
	To:	traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
	Subject:	Traveller-digest V1999 #517


	Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 28 1999      Volume 1999 :
Number 517



	(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture
Enterprises.
	All rights reserved.

	The following topics are covered in this digest:

	Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509
	Subsectors names for the Corridor sector 
	Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
	Re: Gun Paranoia (was: RPG Paranoia)
	Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
	Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
	Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
	adventure hooks
	Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)
	Re: Aces and Eights (1188)
	Re: something to keep in mind when designing staterooms...
	Re: Nazi Obsessions (Was: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)
	Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
	Terran countries and Alien Races compared
	Re: Surface based Black Globes
	Re: Drop Tanks
	Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
	Re: heavy sigh...
	Re: Flashes
	Re: Flashes

	
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

	Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:35:11 -0700
	From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
	Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509

	> From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
	> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509
	 
	> Adventure hook:  PCs are sucked into a "kill the landlord!" revolt
on a
	> remote agricultural world.  The world government has to pay double
fees (1.

	> The characters can be mercenaries brought in to
	> crush the rebels and restore order, or they can be Imperial
Marines sent in
	> to crush the rebels, restore order, then rebuild the government
and
	> population's faith in the Imperium...

	Or, for a twist, they can be hired by the rebels as training or
	stiffening cadre, or as a special operations unit (sort of like The
	Magnificent Seven, which I've always wanted to translate into a
	Traveller adventure).

	- --Glenn

	------------------------------

	Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:54:03 -0700
	From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
	Subject: Subsectors names for the Corridor sector 

	> From: Keith Johnson <kejohnson@2xtreme.net>
	> Subject: Subsectors names for the Corridor sector 
	 
	> Do the Subsectors have different names between differant eras? Did
the 3rd
	> Imperium establish Subsector names, or has they been inherited
from the 1st
	> Imperium or Rule of Man? 

	That's a good question.  I've always assumed that the
sector/subsector
	system was a Vilani invention that's just been kept ever since by
	subsequent Imperia.  The library data entries for "astrogation" and
	"subsector" (Supplement 8:  Library Data: A-M) don't address this
	question.  Names of both subsectors and sectors may have changed
over
	time.
	 
	> Heck, anyone have a clue how why the Zhodani, Aslan, K'Kree or
Hivers are
	> using the Sector/Subsector model?

	I don't think they are (although the Vargr in Provence and Gvurrdon
	probably are because (1) it's easier to swipe an existing system
than to
	come up with one on their own and (2) they tend to interact more
with
	Imperium than with their other neighbors).  Every major power
probably
	has its own model, but can translate its maps or the maps of the
other
	powers into the other models.  So when diplomats or military leaders
are
	discussing a region of space with their opposite numbers from other
	powers, everyone can use the referents that make the most sense and
are
	the most familiar.

	- --Glenn

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:06:09 -0700
	From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
	Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

	> From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>

	> And, bringing this back to the Topic of this ML, this is why most
worlds
	> IMTU, restrict weapons according to their law level, and sometimes
(if i
	> feel the government or Pop-level warrant it) even more so.
	> How do you see these restrictions enforced in the Imperium?

	The local world is responsible for enforcing its own laws, so
exiting
	the starport means clearing the local world's customs -- which may
	include metal detectors, x-ray machines, strip searches,
interrogations,
	or whatever law level, tech level, starport class, and all of the
other
	circumstances indicate.  

	The Imperium is charged with enforcing law and order in the
starport. 
	Entering the starport involves clearing starport security.  What
that
	entails depends on the starport, its security needs, etc.

	- --Glenn

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 03:26:05 EDT
	From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
	Subject: Re: Gun Paranoia (was: RPG Paranoia)

	> I've been avoiding this thread, too, as it is not germaine to
Traveller, so
	> I'll be brief. The reason I even respond to this comment is that I
hear
	> this argument all too often from gun proponents on this list. 

	There are several applications. Most notably, law level (which has
always 
	been the Traveller default when mentioning guns).  Course, the
Imperium nor 
	Reformation Coalition nor any other interstellar govt (maybe the
Zhos) have 
	the means, the will, or the way to really enforce it.  This is much
more 
	appropriate than the musings on the causes of the incident in
Littleton...  
	IMO.  YMMV.  You hear the argument "all too often" because it's
true.  :-)

	> Here goes: If you (and I mean that in the generic sense; not just
you,
	> Gary) really believe that two students with machetes and knives
could have
	> done the damage that those two did in Littleton, you are too
deluded to own
	> a firearm yourself. I won't even get into how ridiculous it is to
compare
	> knives with firearms other than to say this assertion is just
plain stupid.

	Anyone w/ a knife could've done much worse w/ just blades and
perfectly legal 
	and mundane chemicals, with knowledge gained from the internet
(amongst other 
	places).  The knee-jerk reflex is to put restrictions on guns, not
that it 
	would've stopped this trajedy (or any others, really), but that'll
make some 
	people feel good, regardless of the actual effectiveness, but like
most 
	legislation and public thought on this topic (gun control), is very
short 
	sighted and is very aptly summed up as paranoia.

	Indeed it would seem you're not acquainted with knives (and most
likely guns, 
	particularly handguns, too).  Do try to shed some light on how
ridiculous it 
	is. :-) 
	This should be entertaining...  You do have some practical
experience and 
	knowledge on what you speak, perhaps?  What do you base your opinion
on, 
	Chris?

	I knew how to do neat things w/ a knife long before I joined the
Marines.  
	I'm kinda rusty, as I'm in tanks, and if I ever get to the point
where I need 
	to use a knife, something is VERY wrong (even worse than if I'd have
to use 
	the 9mm). 

	> If you must come up with an argument to justify your ownership and
love of
	> firearms, find a better one than this. Let's get serious, folks.

	I don't need to justify anything, much less here.  Those 2 wimps
could've 
	easily killed 15 people with knives, homemade explosives with common

	materials, and any other number of methods that would've been easily

	available to them.  Do you want me to list some?  It's very easy,
actually.  
	The thing I find surprising is that only 15 were killed, given all
the bombs 
	that were planted (especially the ones on the propane tanks), though
it seems 
	very few went off (did any?).

	Of course, the reflex response from "leadership" like the
President's is to 
	restrict 18 year olds from gun ownership and to put a waiting period
on 
	explosives (not that I think that would've affected the bombs these
guys made 
	anyways, especially if they had the girlfriends buy them, but i'm
not sure on 
	the exact specifications of their explosives... has it been released
yet?).  
	Nor would any of the proposed weapons restrictions (short of the
extreme 
	left-wing ambititions to ban them entirely) have stopped Littleton
from 
	happening.  Yeah, you can be drafted for war, but let's not allow
you to 
	drink or own a handgun (not that anything will stop an 18 year old
from doing 
	either, anways, right?)...


	Gary

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 03:26:08 EDT
	From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
	Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

	> IRL, in the US military, all hazing is officially forbidden, and
most of the
	> rituals have been stripped of everything but the name.
Unofficially, last
	> time I was in contact with someone from the fleet, crow tacking,
pinning,
	> bloodstriping, etc... had all gone underground and was still very
much a
	> part of the lifestyle.  You just don't get caught doing it, and
nobody who
	> participates talks.

	Yeah, that's basically how it still is.  The officers and such used
to know 
	and would look the other way (especially Mustangs), but more and
more 
	commanders are being relieved and the whip is generally being
cracked, 
	driving it to much more discrete methods.  You have the fools who go
too far, 
	permanently injuring people, etc, too.  Then the really dim who
videotape 
	such things.  Most are pretty tame and good natured.

	ob Trav.  Odds are such traditions are maintained and practiced by
Solomani 
	units, but what about the Vilani?  Doesn't seem to go w/ my
conception of 
	them, though they still practice jump dimming, etc.  It's more than
possible. 
	 Anyone have any ideas on Vilani "hazing?"  


	Gary

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 03:30:45 -0400
	From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
	Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

	> > From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
	> > Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509
	>  
	> > Adventure hook:  PCs are sucked into a "kill the landlord!"
revolt on a
	> > remote agricultural world.  The world government has to pay
double fees (1.
	> 
	> > The characters can be mercenaries brought in to
	> > crush the rebels and restore order, or they can be Imperial
Marines sent in
	> > to crush the rebels, restore order, then rebuild the government
and
	> > population's faith in the Imperium...
	> 
	> Or, for a twist, they can be hired by the rebels as training or
	> stiffening cadre, or as a special operations unit (sort of like
The
	> Magnificent Seven, which I've always wanted to translate into a
	> Traveller adventure).

	A lotta plots from some of the more popular Hollywierd flicks would
make good adventures.

	Except of course for Titanic...

	Keven

	tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh
sy
	-
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
	                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
	                                                     In Reavers'
Deep

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 04:00:45 EDT
	From: GypsyComet@aol.com
	Subject: Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

	Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>

	>Ok, just a question: What's wrong with the T4 Starships book?  (I
don't
	>have it, and have only glanced through it briefly.  My impression
was that
	>other than the art it was ok...)  
	>
	>Not trying to start a war, just honestly curious... 
	>

	 Well, lessee.

	 -"Rather" loose interpretations of the artwork when building most
of the 
	deckplans.
	 -Scaling inconsistencies (ie. the Ship's Boat is portrayed
inacurately (or 
	not at all) in other designs where it appears as a subcraft).
	 -Interesting ideas regarding living spaces, working spaces, and the
passages 
	between these. The Scout ship being a classic example: getting to
the 
	engineering spaces requires squeezing through a 0.5 meter gap
between Cargo 
	and some other item.
	 -The three-story-tall walk-in closets the Subsidized Liner calls
Cargo.
	 -placement of several color plates dead in the center of the ship
design 
	rules.
	 -questionable Traveller usefulness of those color plates.
	 -questionable editing of the ship design rules.
	 -the designs were done using QSDS (from the main rulebook), and as
a result 
	can't always be duplicated using the SSDS system in THIS book.
	 -so little color text that this book makes MTs Fighting Ships of
the 
	Shattered Imperium look positively chatty by comparison (and
Starships is 
	about ADVENTURING ships!).
	 -primitive/thoughtless layout and design (I mean, really now. BLACK
pages?)
	 -...

	 I'm sure others could come up with more, but my point is this: If
you are a 
	completist, and can find this book for <$5, pick it up. The two or
three 
	useable pages in this book do not warrant picking it up for more.

	GC

	ps: I fixed the Subsidized Liner.  Go see:
	  http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html
	 and follow the "starships" link. At the moment it also appears in
the "New" 
	section.

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:55:40 -0700
	From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
	Subject: adventure hooks

	> From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
	> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

	> ObTrav:A group of Imperial Citizens on a high tech world that are
armed
	> with recreational weapons have to hold off an invasion force until
a relief
	> force of Army or Marines arrive. The PC's as ex-military members
get drafted into
	> leading the resistance.

	A noble takes a hunting party (including the PCs) to his/her private
	game preserve.  While they're away, the commoners revolt.  A force
of
	commoners armed with weapons taken from the military heads for the
game
	preserve.  The noble party must defend the hunting lodge or a cave
where
	they're holed up, or something similar with hunting rifles and
whatever
	other weapons the PCs (being PCs) smuggled along for the trip -- and
	their wits.  

	Opportunities for role-playing abound as whoever has access to commo
	tries to get help from the military (of dubious reliability), from
other
	world leaders (balkanized world, maybe? be creative), from the
Imperium
	("sorry, that's a matter of internal governance; we're obligated not
to
	interfere" or "we'd like to help you, but all four Marines stationed
	here are involved in guarding Imperial facilities (or the
starport)"),
	etc.

	- --Glenn

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:06:25 -0700
	From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
	Subject: Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)

	> From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
	> Subject: Copyright (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)
	> 
	> >       Hans Rancke
	> > Just because it was first invented around 1080-90 dosen't mean
it has to
	> be
	> > TL 16. It just has to be an entirely new idea. THe reason that
those
	> > capacitors can't be built in the Spinward Marches could be the
simple one
	> > that the manufacture is still a secret, or at the very least
still owned
	> > by the inventor.
	> 
	> I hadn't thought about this... but what's stopping someone from
stealing
	> another persons idea? The imperium is so large... it would be hard
to keep
	> tabs on who's trying to sell what. Even if the manufacture of drop
tanks is
	> a secret... it shouldn't be too hard to reverese engineer one and
figure it
	> out. ...and even though the idea is owned by the inventor who
lives, say on
	> capital. He wouldn't know that someone is the Spinward Marches was
using
	> his idea. and even if he did find out... he wouldn't be able to do
much about
	> it.
	> 
	> Just an interesting thought... could make an interesting
adventure. Guy
	> hires the group to find out who's stealing his ideas and stop
them...

	Suppose the inventor -- or at least the patent owner -- is a
	megacorporation (which seems likely).  Megacorporations are very
	vigilant about their intellectual property, and have lawyers and
	investigators in every sector or even subsector who are in charge of
	just that.  (See the feature article on SuSAG, LIC, in JTAS.)  The
one
	who stole the idea is probably also a good-sized company.  So the
PCs
	might be engaged as independent contractors to engage in some
self-help
	against the other company, or to gather evidence, as the lawyers
	commence litigation.  

	- --Glenn

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:20:36 -0500
	From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
	Subject: Re: Aces and Eights (1188)

	>Aces over Eights are known as "the dead man's hand" in stud poker
	>because Wild Bill Hickock (sp?) was shot in the back while holding
	>that hand.  He died.
	>
	>P.S. I have finals this week and next, wish me luck!
	>
	>Perceval

	There was a cool adventure in one of the earlier Journals called
aces and
	eights that dealt with pokerhands etc. I think it was done by one or
both
	of the Keith brothers (a fairly safe bet, early they basically wrote
the
	entire journal themselves). After that adventure we started
experimenting
	with various poker rules for Traveller that I tend to rewrite every
two
	months or so. There is a slightly illegal poker championship held at
a
	secret location (to the public) every year. All interesting crooks
and
	criminals go there and declare "peace" during the event. Add a
couple of
	Imperial Revenue Service men, a couple of Naval Intelligence spooks
and the
	odd assortment of psions and you get a pretty interesting setting,
all IMTU
	of course.


	/Anders Backman
	Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
	anders.backman@aniware.se

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:26:20 -0500
	From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
	Subject: Re: something to keep in mind when designing staterooms...

	>http://cnn.com/TECH/ptech/9904/27/japan.brainyhomes.ap/
	>
	>CNN article on new high tech homes in Japan.
	>
	>The toliets weigh you and measure your blood sugar level.
	>Cameras and motion detectors track you through the place...
	>
	>Didn't Greg Bear come up with the idea of toliets being part of the
house
	>autodoc system in one of his books about 2 years ago?

	Either the toilets themselves or some smart system in the plumbing
IMTU.
	The units check for any illnesses etc but thay can also be used to
check
	for use of illegal substances.

	Yes, in the future, muckracking journalism will take on an entirely
new meaning.


	/Anders Backman
	Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
	anders.backman@aniware.se

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:31:07 -0500
	From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
	Subject: Re: Nazi Obsessions (Was: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia)

	>Yep, you are right there. Even I must admit, that the style
(fashion and
	>public appearance)
	>of the nazi regime were the coolest looking. They were designed to
impress
	>people.
	>It is no wonder that even today, Science Fiction Films model future
regimes
	>dresses like the Nazis. Just look at "Verhoevens Starship
Troopers".
	>This however does not mean one agrees with their politics/policies.

	I think you missed the point there. They were made to look like
Nazis
	because the film was shot to look like a fascist propaganda film.
When
	watching it (aside from getting totally mindboggled at the weird
physics in
	place - Verhoevens physics) I liked the intended similarities to
Gulf war
	propaganda as portrayed by the media.


	/Anders Backman
	Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
	anders.backman@aniware.se

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:45:59 +0200
	From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
	Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

	At 20:06 27.04.99 -0400, you wrote:

	>This is a very dangerous argument.  At what point do we restrict
something
	>as _potentially_ dangerous?  Many more people die in car accidents
than
	>ever do from guns, but we don't ban cars.  After all "Sure people
want
	>them, but free access is just too dangerous," sounds silly in that
context
	>doesn't it?  

	Ah, but most people _need_ cars, whereas people usually do not
_need_ guns!
	Why allow potentially dangerous item possession to those who do not
really 
	need it? That just opens the door for trouble!
	Volker
	-
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
	Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:50:21 +0200
	From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
	Subject: Terran countries and Alien Races compared

	>>>I'm also more inclined to think of the Zhos as the Persians.
Vargr as
	>>>Germans fits though.
	Aha, and how did you see that?
	The Vargr to me seem like the exact opposite of the attributes
generally
	attributed to Germans:
	"Law and Order", Punctuality, Order in its normal sense,
discipline,
	reserved etc.
	Vargr usually are untrustworthy, prone to disobey rules, whimsical,
	agressive, etc.

	Semms like the old prejudices / opinions of us germans are slowly
breaking
	up. :-)

	I always figured the Vargr to be more like the Serbs, Kroats, hell,
like
	the Balcans in general. At least they are also always fighting
amonst
	themselves, cant really be trusty (their leaders in any case).
	>>
	The Solomani were always a bit like a mix of Nazi Germany and the
former
	East-Germany, in my book, in attitude, though not in action.
	The extreme suppression of other ideas, political groups, the party
being
	the all and everything, invading even family life....


	>The Zhodani dont *want* to expand. They dont want to absorb all
those
	>Imperials, for a start. All they want is to make it clear that
Imperial
	>expansion must be frozen at or about the border established by the
initial
	>Frontier Wars.
	Anient China or Japan in my book. Ancient traditions and a do not
disturb
	attitude towards the 3I (Imperialist America if the late 1880s to
early
	1900s or the British Empire of long ago).
	Only difference that the Zhos are more equally matched than China
or Japan
	were.

	The Hivers do not have a direct counterpart in my book and i dont
really
	see the KKree, Droyne or Aslan either.


	>I actually think the Second Civil War sans virus would have been
about as
	>destructive as, say, the Hundred Years War plus the Wars of
Religion were
	>in France, or the Peasants Revolt plus the Thirty Years War in
Germany.
	>Lots of damage, lots of tragedies, but enough infrastructure left
to rebuild.
	Dont forget the plague. 
	Volker
	-
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
	Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:50:35 +0200
	From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
	Subject: Re: Surface based Black Globes

	>Actually it's even worse. Blackglobes in an atmosphere is abig
no-no. 
	>The blackglobe absorbs all energy so the energy from the atmosphere

	>as it is cooled to 0 K will overload the capacitors and blow 
	>everything up. Possibly it will also absorb potential energy
(caused 
	>by gravity) speeding this up even more.

	Hmm, how about building a black globe covering an entire world? 
	The power could come from its core, its range big enough not to
interfere
	with the atmosphere...
	Voila, perfect invulnerability. Which is exactly why _I_ wont allow
	anything like it in my universe! 
	Volker
	-
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
	Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:18:08 +1200
	From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
	Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

	>CT isnt at all happy with that idea, once you plug High Guard into
it.
	>
	>In High Guard, an Energy Point is at or about 250 MW.

	>Now, if the hydrogren is having it's energy extracted before jump,
then we
	>are dealing with e=mc^2.

	>A dton of hydrogen is therefore e=10^9*(3*10^9)^2, or 10^9*3*10^18,
or
	>3*10^27 joules.

	 Assuming total conversion, which may not be a corrrect.asumption.
	But let's accept that for now, because that's a lot of energy.
	Perhaps enough to warp space-time...

	>This becomes a slightly less insane 3*10^21 mejajoules, or a quite
	>reasonable 10^19 energy points at 250 MW an energy point -
actually, call
	>it 3 orders of magnitude less, because you are extracting it over
1000
	>seconds or so. 10^16 is therefore our number.

	>Given therefore that a type R meson gun needs a mere 20 000 EP or
so (a
	>measly 2*10^4), why cant we strap a Free Trader's jump drive to the
back of
	>one and have power coming out of our ears ?

	OK, here's where I sketch the solution.

	For a start, it's not the jump drive that creates power from
hydrogen.
	because it's already been shown that the jump drive can take power
from
	_any_ ultra-high current source to power it, such as a black globe's
	capacitors.

	That large amount of  power must be discharged rapidly to warp
spacetime and
	kick the ship into jump space.
	(I'm assuming maintenance of the jump field via the lanthanum grid
actually
	takes relatively little power, and coming out is more a factor of
the
	gravity well you hit, as per the rules allowing a ship to exit
J-space
	before it's destination if it hots a rogue stellar mass on it's
"path". )

	This implies a very high current "switch" of some sort needs to be
thrown
	when you're ready to jump.

	That switch, because of the amount of power involved, needs to go
from open
	circuit to closed in as short a time as possible, because for the
duration
	of the switching it will be soaking that entire potential
diffference.
	Taking that further, _unless_ you are going to discharge all that
power in
	one go, you need something capable of regulating the current
equivalent of
	your 3*10^21 MJ

	So, the reason you can't power a 20,000 EP R Meson from the jump
capacitors
	is because the technology to regulate current at those power levels
doesn't
	exist, only the binary off/on switching technology exists.  And we
can go
	further, and state that the  binary switching is "once-only", like a
	thyristor or SCR, i.e: we can't use pulse techniques to regulate it,
because
	we can't turn it off again.
	without removing all the power from it or slagging the switch

	So, yes, it _would_ be possible to power some (currently imaginary)
factor
	XXX meson gun from the single discharge of your jump capacitors, but
trying
	to power something as "small" as an R meson results only in a melted
pile of
	scrap metal where your meson gun used to be.

	A nice GM might let you get one extra powerful shot out of your
destructing
	meson, like a detonation laser, or he might not, ruling that the
meson
	cooking also takes out other systems. (i.e, the rest of the ship)

	Yes, this allows the possibility of super powerful single shot
weapon
	systems out there somewhere....

	But even that could be eliminated merely by stating that no-one's
been able
	to build a weapon (so far) tthat can use all that power without
slagging,
	and the only reason the jump drive can handle the power is that it
no longer
	exists in real space at the instant it activates and takes all the
	power.....

	This suggests that "timing problems" of mere nano-seconds between
activating
	the power feed switch and the jump unit could cause a huge secondary
	discharge into surrounding equipment resulting in catastrophic
system
	damage. (i.e: the ship blows up )

	Obviously, the two switches need to be tightly ganged...

	And yes, I now have this picture in my head of the ship's engineer
throwing
	one of those huge pole switches beloved of Frankenstien movies and
such
	(though nothing like that would be able to handle this sort of
current )
	<grin>

	Frankly, one of the reasons I like this idea is that it emphaizes
how
	_dangerous_ jump drives are, because of the amount of energy  you're
	throwing around.


	>Finally, the description of the Trikhama-Brilliance tragedy is a
press
	>release, and a good read. But eschew Gloranthaism - dont regard old
sources
	>as better, just because they are older (1).

	Yeah, but I only use new sources when they don't break the old
ones,,
	:-)

	>Ian Whitchurch
	>
	>(1) Compare for example the boring mundanity of the description of
the
	>Seven Mothers in 'Gods of Prax' with the sublimity of the far more
modern
	>'Pelorian Rhapsody'.

	"Gods of Prax" ?
	Is that an Avalon Hill thing ?
	:-)

	Frankie

	------------------------------

	Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:56:57 +1200
	From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
	Subject: Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

	>> Probably wear Ine Gevar (sp?) t-shirts while at said rallies too.
	>
	> This kind of attitude is why I have an obligatory "club the
hippies" 
	>scene in everyone of my adventures.

	Is that before or after the "club the baby fur seals" scene ?

	Frankie

	------------------------------

	Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:47:43 PST
	From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
	Subject: Re: heavy sigh...

	In mail you write:

	> However the killing sprees by crazed loners which have triggered
the
	> various legislative acts (the latest being Dunblane, resulting in
	> laws passed against handguns in 1996-7) were committed using
legally
	> held firearms, and the view (according to the opinion polls, which
	> heavily supported these laws) has been that depriving everyone
else
	> is a price worth paying for the (statistically small) number of
lives
	> that are likely to be saved.

	Here in the states, the guns used in the school shootings have all
been
	obtained illegally. 

	> Sure, crazed loners will still go on sprees, but hopefully they'll
	> use knives instead of guns, and kill less people.  Runs the
argument.

	And the presence of bombs in the latest incident puts the lie to
that.
	The news has made little mention of what *I* consider the scariest
part
	of the incident. The kids had placed a pair of 35 pound bombs in the
	school kitchen, attached to the propane tanks used by the stoves.
From
	the one picture I saw, these look to be the type of tank that is
~18"
	(.5m) in diameter and 3 ft (1 m) tall. 

	Setting off a pair of bombs attached to such tanks would have done a
	damn good job of *leveling* the school. Why they didn't go off, I
don't
	know. But the bomb count in the school keeps going up. 

	> ObTrav - the general crime level is likely to be a function more
of the 
	> economic/social structure of a system than of its law level.

	My own ObTrav: the world's with the highest law levels will have the
	*nastiest* incidents involving improvised weapons.

	- -- 
	Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
	 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
	leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

	------------------------------

	Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:55:02 PST
	From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
	Subject: Re: Flashes

	In mail you write:

	> ObTrav: gotta love them unit-specific traditions.
	> I'm thinking of the ritual in the US Navy where they do a kind of
hazing
	> for new crewmen the first time they cross the equator on a Navy
ship.

	Actually, there are rituals for crossing the Equator, the Zero
	meridian, and the International dateline. Those I'm *sure* of. There
	may also be ones for the Arctic and Antarctic Circles.

	> Would Marines in the 3I have a similar ritual for troopers on
their first
	> jump? Something to pass the time in the hole.

	Probably not for the first *combat* jump. But for the first *real*
	jump? Oh yeah...

	> I have this image of a rookie climbing into a drop capsule while
the old
	> hands fill it up with something festive, yet unpleasant to be
doused in. <G>

	I've got it. Tradition says that for your first shore leave after
	qualifying, you have to land using a personal re-entry kit. No fair
	going down in the shuttle. It's also traditional to try to land
	someplace difficult (requiring skill, say the top of a building or a
	mountain peak) or annoying (say the Governor's swimming pool during
a
	party.) 

	Extra status points if you can keep the Shore Patrol from proving it
	was you. And even more if you can maintain your innocence *and*
prove
	to your buddies that you did it. :-)

	- -- 
	Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
	 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
	leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

	------------------------------

	Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:08:07 PST
	From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
	Subject: Re: Flashes

	In mail you write:

	> In a message dated 4/27/99 8:17:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
	> rick_stump@yahoo.com writes:
	>
	> <<  Military rituals, especially the unit-specific ones of the
NCOs, will
	>  be rather physical and probably barbaric to outsiders. In
	>  well-disciplined, professional units the participants will be
sore but
	>  not injured - anything that injures harms morale and readiness,
after
	>  all.
	>   >>
	>
	> yeah; the US media went ballistic with the "bloodpinning"...

	And I know a fair number of people who do far more "extreme" things
for
	*fun*. They thought the media was being silly.

	- -- 
	Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
	 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
	leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

	------------------------------

	End of Traveller-digest V1999 #517
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 533



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HG to GURPS conversion
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Discarding Sabot
Re: low tech weapons 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #526
Re: Earth's Starport?
from my sig quote collection
Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power
Yet Another keyboard dead
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: from my sig quote collection 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #526
Re: Fuel Stations 
Re: Vilani expansion
Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: Connection between Norris and Strephon
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Traveller Fanzines
Re: low tech weapons 
Re: OT: Re: AK-47s banned...
Re: Copyright
Re: low tech weapons 
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Black Globes (middlin' longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 99 01:56:25 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Re: HG to GURPS conversion

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
> When the book lists a laser battery, so they mean one 1dt laser?  One
> turret worth of lasers (3)?  One bay?  Something else?

One logical grouping is a battery. A battery can be:
  1) A single spinal mount
  2) A single bay (50 or 100 dtons)
  3) A collection of 1 to 10 turrets.

One of the criticisms of HG was that you could not mix and match - if you had a fusion 
bay, you could not have fusion turrets...etc...

> What's an energy battery?

Fusion or Plasma (one or the other, not both) turrets or bays (one or the other, not 
both).

> What's a repulsor battery?

Repulsors were focused anti-grav projectors mounted in bays designed to smack missiles 
around. Think of them as force beams, but only useful in deflecting small objects 
(missiles).

> Defenses:  How much DR should a heavy pierced plate hull provide?  What
> about a NOTB 666 meson screen.  What's the range of an Absalom Nuclear
> Damper?  A Finnalians one?

Not sure.

> On a related note, can anyone post or point me to a decoder for the HG USP
> (2nd ed. preferably)

  I'm not at home, so I'll do it later...   


For the record, I am a huge HG fan - its my favorite system, even with its 
shortcomings. One of my big beefs with TNE and T4 were the disappearance of Energy 
Weapons and Repulsors - even though I concede that they are a bit unrealistic.

Andy Akins
igor@truserve.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:04:35 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:43:38 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>

>> Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:02:30 -0700, Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
>> >Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still connected, and pumping
>> >LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang outside the jump
>> >field? In this case the explosive bolts are only used when the ship
>> >actually jumps,and the tanks are discarded into jump space.
>>
>> Then the question is how can you jump with drop tanks right
>> next to you, but not with anything else.

>IMTU, *ANYTHING* inside the jump bubble goes with them.

But if it is inside the jump bubble, you can just take them
to your destination.....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:07:39 -0500
From: "Sam D. Thomas" <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Discarding Sabot

At 12:00 PM 4/29/99 , you wrote:

>The sabot is designed to fall away from the sub-caliber penetrator (the
>sabot is actually split into four pieces, and held in place at the crimp
>where the cartridge is secured to the penetrator), which is why it is called
>discarding sabot.

>douglas,

When CIWS was first introduced to the Fleet, an interesting change had to done the sabots for CIWS, ie the black colored sabots were extremely hard to find as FOD on carrier's flight deck, solution the carrier mounted CIWS fired a bright orange colored sabot. 

How far did they get in the Mods for CIWS while you were in? I had only Mod 1's.



Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:07:39 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: low tech weapons 

In a message dated 99-04-29 21:16:36 EDT, you write:

<< *OUCH*!!!!!!!!!  Shades of 'Green Arrow'!!!!!!! >>

'Green Arrow?'
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:27:53 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #526

>> Just for fun, I've worked out Earth's Traveller UPP (UWP). Which
>> isn't actually that hard to do, especially since the first half of
>> it is right there in the Solomani Rim book.
>
>GDW did it in the main TNE book and Survival Margin (~93), on the credits 
>page.  They give a UWP of G867975-8.

What kind of starport is "G"???


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:31:45 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Earth's Starport?

>Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:36:29 EDT
>From: Tascelt@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Earth's Starport?
>
>I thought I saw in an old traveller book someplace very different stats.  I 
>could swear we're not a size 8.  Every geography book I've ever seen says 
>"60% of the earth's surface is water" so that would be a 6.  rests seems 
>about right.  As far as starport...I'd have to say we aint got one.

Earth's diameter is just under 8,000 miles -- therefore, size 8.
Meanwhile, about 70% of the earth's surface is water, therefore 
hydrographics = 7. As for a starport, sure we have one. A Class E
starport is basically a big flat open area with a sign saying "Land
Here", which we have. Otherwise, where would the Space Shuttle land?
But can the buildings and support facilities for the shuttle be taken
as sufficient for a class D port, or are we class E?


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:34:24 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: from my sig quote collection

"Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com> writes:
[snip]
>Hear, hear!
>ObTrav - Do you think that those TEDs could have come into power if more
>sophonts had FGMPs?

Overheard in a Gushemege bar, 1109:
"The Spinward Marches are so poor, you could conquer half the worlds with
nothing but a few Orrimot's and ten FGMP-15's."
"The Zho's seem to have a rough time of it..."
"No FGMP-15's." 


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be 
infringed.  -- http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:05:06 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power

>>ah, but the capacitor banks for the jump drive use Zuchai crystals, as
>>nothing else can hold such an amount of energy and release it
>>correctly.  To discourage use of such crystals for weapon capacitors
>>is to handwave that after discharging they require about a week for
>>the crystal structure to re-align before being capable of charging up
>>again.  So *maybe* one big shot a week *if* the rest of the weapon can
>>handle the power surge.....

>You'd also have to handwave why I cannot have lots of small crystals
>and discharge one at a time instead of all at once.

No, you don't. There is nothing to prevent you doing that if you wish.

But that isn't using your _jump_ capacitors to power something. That's using
a specialy constructed smaller capacity capacitor. If you reduce the size of
the capacitor to the level at which you can regulate the current flow, turn
it on and off, etc, then you have limited yourself to what conventional
power plants can do anyway, and there is no "super-weapon" problem, and no
real gain in doing it either.

>Them problem is not drop tanks, but the drop tank description that
>says you transfer all the fuel, discard them and then jump.

I don't see the problem myself.

>Dropping them during jump transition would work, since you could
>handwave that the capacitors just conduct the energy into jumpspace.

That is a possibility, but represents more unknowns, such as what happens to
the ship with effectively part of it's structure breaking through the jump
field ?  It may be safe, but it equally might not.

Though I agree that doing it this way would make it less possible to use the
energy for other purposes.

>It also saves having to try to explain why you can't use a tanker with
>a pipe or how the explosive bolts shred a fuel tank into unusable
>fragments.

These last are not problems, IMO. Drop tanks don't _have_ to be disposable,
it's just that the ones Tukera was using were.
If you want a reason why a disposable drop tank can't just be re-used, the
"explosive bolts" don't have to shred the tank. they just need to stress it
enough to require a spaceworthines inspection.by the Imperial Aerospace
Authority or equivalent.

This means that while some sleazy tramp starship ( like a player's ship )
might try and reuse a "non-resable" drop tank, taking the risk of that
O-ring failure)  Tukera wouldn't, and neither under normal circumstances
would the military..

It also adds another plot possibilty. Everyone knows about the lucrative
trade in illict aircraft parts with faked IAA/FAA airworthiness certificates
I presume ? Hike the prices involved tostarship level, and you have a real
scam for a few "pirates" to run.
"Sure, they're new drop tanks. No way I'd sell you used ones, IAA would sue
myu butt if I did. Anyway, it wouldn't have one of these here
Spaceworthiness Cetificates saying it's new otherwise, would it ?

Personally, I think using pipes is perfectly fine. The only problem is
whether a tanker is profitable enough to operate. For the military, a fleet
tender could perform the job, and they do now in RL. But how many commercial
ships in RL bother with the hassle of ship-to-ship refuelling ?  The
neccessary equipment, the neccessary pilot's ratings, the risk of an
accident....just isn't worth it.

If you want to get rid of drop tanks or tankers, I wouldn't argue over the
tanks themselves, I'd bring a question to the Imperial equivalent of Ralph
Nader about whether the idea of these big capacitors sitting there with this
absolutely _huge_ amount of energy in them, straining to get out, requiring
just a few unlikley malfunctions in some redundant systems, based on some
poorly understood usage of recovered Ancients technology, is really all that
safe.

Compared to them capacitors, a nuclear power plant is a squib. And look at
how much protest and concern there was over nuclear powr plant safety !

I would suggest, at a minimum, if people are using "tankers" or the
equivalent concept, that due to the danger involved ( a malfunction could
result in discharge of the capacitors back into the facility)  is a crime to
charge one's jump capacitors within five million kilometres (or some other
arbitrary safe distance)  of an orbital facility or on the ground. This
neatly eliminates the idea of a ship charging it's capacitors directly from
fuel piped to it by an orbital or ground-based facility and therefore
requires the use of some sort of tanker.

>It's the delay I don't like.

Why ? (other than the dangers I mention above)

>On the Tech Level issue, I can accept that they are TL16
>(or experimental TL15 in the same way as black globes).
>Alternatively, I could accept that they are TL9.
>(As *ALL* the ship design rules imply.)
>What I find difficult to accept is that they are TL9 but not found
>until someone does TL16 research.

I think you misunderstand the situation. The construction of a drop tank is
TL8-9. It's only a tank with some quick release couplings and explosive
bolts, after all.  The construction of the high energy  _capacitors_ which
let you _use_ drop tanks is TL16.

The reference in JTAS-2 made it abundantly clear that it was easy to
construct drop -tanks, which is why they were being constructed locally. but
that only Core could construct the capacittors. Constructing the drop-tanks
just meant that the Spinward main could be serviced by drop-tank ships
coming from the Core.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:46:07 PDT
From: "will richards" <willrichards@hotmail.com>
Subject: Yet Another keyboard dead

>>First off this is IMTU! and does anyone want to guess how long this
>>thread will rage?

>Yeah, but the gun control thread is making it look good....
>:-)

Dagonit! I just got this keyboard to.
Well at least the ravioli was good.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh!
    Will


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:48:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

In a message dated 99-04-29 22:11:54 EDT, you write:

<< But if it is inside the jump bubble, you can just take them
 to your destination..... >>

Just make shure you get the entire thing...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:50:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: from my sig quote collection 

> "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com> writes:
> [snip]
> >Hear, hear!
> >ObTrav - Do you think that those TEDs could have come into power if more
> >sophonts had FGMPs?
> 
> Overheard in a Gushemege bar, 1109:
> "The Spinward Marches are so poor, you could conquer half the worlds with
> nothing but a few Orrimot's and ten FGMP-15's."
> "The Zho's seem to have a rough time of it..."
> "No FGMP-15's." 

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:44:21 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #526

In a message dated 99-04-29 22:38:01 EDT, you write:

<< What kind of starport is "G"??? >>

Gee, that's the starport...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:55:35 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations 

> Keven Pittsinger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> Burst, not wear out.  They're flimsier, remember?  You can make something that can handle high pressure for a short period of time, but it'll fail if you *keep* it at high pressure for a longer period of time.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> My take on these was that they were only under dangerously high pressure
> when dumping fuel fast into a jump drive.
> 
> If pressure is a problem, fill 'em with water - the scout and military
> ships will have fuel treatment plants aboard.

You won't get enough hydrogen that way.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:01:49 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vilani expansion

Hi Mike,

I checked my sources and thought that I'd best get back.  I was just a little 
off (only about 1600 years!) on the date that Vanejen was settled. It 
occurred in -2430.  The first contact between the Vilani and the Terrans 
occurred just eight years later, sparking the collapse of the Vilani 
Imperium.  Other canon sources indicate that several worlds in the Trojan 
Reaches were settled by Vilani refugees in the aftermath of the Interstellar 
Wars, c. 2074.  Five Sisters lies right in the path that these colonists 
would have taken.  Hmmm, maybe that could be the rationale for your lost 
colony, refugees from the dying Ziru Sirka.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:22:09 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

In a message dated 4/29/99 12:34:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< ObTrav:  Ambassador Duke as a PC... >>

ROTFLOL! Use him for an NPC. He'll drive the group crazy, or get them all 
busted...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:36:48 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

>   Anyone have any ideas on Vilani "hazing?"  

Maybe putting some spice in the meals?  T4 has a good write up on 
the Vilani cooks/chefs and IIRC, the more bland the meal, the better 
it was prepared.  I guess it has something to do with making sure all 
the poisions were cooked out of the meal before eating on pre-
technology Vland.

"Oy, Kiirnii, you must eat this chocolate bar with nuts without making 
a face or you have the next four patrols."

Or something that upset the natural order of things ... like moving the 
toilet paper to the other side of the stall (or turn it around so it unrolls 
over the top instead of off the bottom).  That would surely drive a 
Vilani nuts.

"No, I don't think Vilani are ultra-conservative." :)




- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:41:14 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

In a message dated 4/29/99 3:45:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
kurt@blazenet.net writes:

<< Mark,
 
 I don't always agree with your views on Traveller, but I have to say that
 you said far more eloquently than I ever could preciscely what needed to be
 said.  Bravo!
  >>

DITTO! GREAT POST. Now can we PLEASE take this to private E mail...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:49:36 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Connection between Norris and Strephon

At 09:42 PM 4/29/1999 +0000, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:43:19 -0400, Steve Daniels
><stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>
>>> Norris and Strephon both have the same middle name: Aledon. Hmm...
>
>>Isn't it Aella?
>
>Actually, I think that Strephon is Strephon Aledon Alkhalikoi,
>and Norris is Norris Aella Aledon.  And ISTR that there _is_ a
>family connection there, somewhere.

It could be since Arbellatra Alkhalikoi (Regent 622-629, Empress 629-666) 
came from the Spinward Marches following her stint as the (very young) 
Grand Admiral of the Marches.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:47:57 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

> Ah, but most people _need_ cars, whereas people usually do not
> _need_ guns!  Why allow potentially dangerous item possession to 
> those who do not really need it? That just opens the door for trouble!

To prevent something like Tienamen (sp) Square from ever 
happening again.  You arm the populace, the government thinks 
twice about inflicting its will.

ObTrav:  Does the Imperium restrict the sale of any kind of hand 
weapon (not to a world but to individuals)?  Why or Why Not?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:00:27 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines

At 03:28 PM 4/29/1999 -0500, DonM. wrote:
>Did MT really devastate that many people?  The editorial of the last
>"Third Imperium" says that Mike Jackson was halting production of it
>because he was writing for GDW officially now - yet I don't recall
>anything written by him...
I don't remember seeing anything from him with GDW, but I know he didquite 
a bit of artwork and a few articles for MT Journal for DGP.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
     and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                         -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:31:54 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: low tech weapons 

- -----Original Message-----
From: SRKOALA@aol.com <SRKOALA@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: low tech weapons


>In a message dated 99-04-29 21:16:36 EDT, you write:
>
><< *OUCH*!!!!!!!!!  Shades of 'Green Arrow'!!!!!!! >>
>
>'Green Arrow?'
>-Stephen


Green Arrow is a DC comics hero. His schtick is that he's an expert archer.
He dresses up in a green neo-Robin Hood outfit and he has a number of arrows
that have special effects. He's got exploding arrows, arrows that spew
smoke, arrows that spew sleeping gas, arrows with climbing rope attached...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:38:18 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: Re: AK-47s banned...

In a message dated 4/29/99 11:40:11 AM Central Daylight Time, markc@peak.org 
writes:

<< AK-47s are banned in most of the US >>

That is indeed the problem with the ban on assault weapons... (I have trouble 
explaining it to my wife). The politicians say (these weapons) were banned. 
What was banned was the manufacture, not possession or sale. That's what 
makes it so hard for many people to understand why (the kids in Littleton) 
could buy a TEC-9 if indeed it was banned.

Of course, this is probably the incremental strategy of the gun-banners. If 
enough people ask "If its banned, why is it still available?" and the next 
step becomes easier for the politicians.

BTW, the Brady Bill stopped 250,000 felons from buying guns, but the Justice 
Department has arrested only about 8 of them. Why weren't the other 249,992 
arrested?

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:40:46 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Copyright

In a message dated 4/29/99 3:19:12 PM Central Daylight Time, 
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:

<< The question is whether there even is Imperial Copyright. >>

The Vilani Empire was the first major interstellar empire to establish itself 
in this region of space; the effects of that Empire on worlds throughout this 
region are still evident in language and social structure.

The power of the Vilani Empire came from the economic benefits it could 
confer on its members. To protect that power, the Empire established a rigid 
structure of technology control laws (the Patent Laws) which discouraged any 
innovation not coming from the established industrial structure. Those few 
citizens who dabbled in invention risked bankruptcy for themselves and 
poverty for their children if their work did not pass the arcane requirements 
of the Patent Laws.

The Vilani Patent Laws actually covered all intellectual property: the broad 
range of patents, copyrights, and trademarks. 

The real purpose was to suppress the advance of technology (especially that 
which would possibly challenge the stranglehold of the First Imperium).

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:45:16 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: low tech weapons 

In a message dated 99-04-30 00:37:19 EDT, you write:

<< Green Arrow is a DC comics hero. His schtick is that he's an expert archer.
 He dresses up in a green neo-Robin Hood outfit and he has a number of arrows
 that have special effects. He's got exploding arrows, arrows that spew
 smoke, arrows that spew sleeping gas, arrows with climbing rope attached... 
>>

Ah, I see, the Tx mailing list can be so informitive.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:45:54 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

In a message dated 4/29/99 5:01:45 PM Central Daylight Time, markc@peak.org 
writes:

<< While you may bemoan the "19 year old legal gun owner" who shoots your
 kid, how to you justify disarming the 75 year-old widow who needs to
 defend herself in her home when three hoodlums break in and threaten
 her with knives and crowbars? >>

The other problem is that the police are not technically obligated to respond 
to your distress call. They usually do, but the response time in outlying 
parts of the county here is about 15-20 minutes  (The sheriff's department 
has one deputy for the western half of the county and one for the eastern 
half). The fact that everyone assumes every farmhouse has at least one 
shotgun in it does keep most evil doers from just walking up and kicking in 
the door.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:18:54 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Black Globes (middlin' longish)

Subject: Re : Black Globes (middlin' long)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:46:41 +1000
From: Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.com

I've been watching this thread with some interest.
Here's my Cr 0.02 :-

Charles Collin wrote :-
> I've often
> wondered about this:  How much energy would the BG be absorbing under
> various circumstances?  On the day-side of Mercury I can see things
going
> very badly, but what about a nice 20 C day on earth?  What about the
dark
> side of an airless rock?

Construct an energy budget :-
1. illumination by primary and other bodies
2. heat dissipation by enclosed object

1. The 'solar constant' is 1353W/square metre at 150 million km (1 AU).
It varies directly with luminosity, with the inverse square of distance
from the primary and inversely with atmospheric pressure (considering
insolation on the surface of the Earth, say).

Mercury, at an average distance of ~58 million km from the sun receives
(2.5)^2 = 6.25X as much insolation, or approx. 8200W/square metre.

Base reflected energy is given by insolation X albedo (reflectivity) ;
typical values are as follows (from the GT 'First In' supplement) :-
Planet Type      Base Albedo
Stone World      0.02
Ice World        0.45
Sulfur World     0.80
Desert World     0.02
Ocean World
(less than 30%)  0.02
(30% - 59%)      0.10
(60% - 89%)      0.20
(90% or more)    0.28
Ammonia World    0.50
Subgiant         0.50

Reflected energy is going to be a very small component. Recall that this

will be the total energy radiated over a sphere of enormous area.

2. How much energy will be radiated into the BG from the inside?
All objects within the field with a temperature above absolute zero will

radiate heat.

For a spacecraft or other installation, use the peak power plant output
multiplied by some factor (how efficient do you think Trav power systems

are?) plus 90W per crew member (adult human sized ; 1.1W/kg mass
assuming human adult metabolic rates for other critters).

Planetary bodies radiate heat from the decay of various radioisotopes
(e.g. potassium in the mantle and core of the Earth). I don't have
figures for this 'geothermal component'. I'd use 10% of albedo as a
starting ballpark figure.

Charles also wrote :-
> What sorts of energy does a BG absorb?
> If it absorbs kinetic/heat energy with perfect efficiency, then it
> violates entropy, turning disorganized energy into organized energy in
the
> form of electricity stored in the capacitors.  If it doesn't absorb
heat
> with perfect efficiency, where does the stuff it doesn't absorb go?

Black globes are 'opaque' to electromagnetism and matter. Radiation is
initially absorbed by the field. Matter is reduced to showers of
elementary particles.

Gravitational interactions are *not* affected (unless you subscribe to
the 'black globe as pocket universe' concept. 'Bobbles', anyone?).

Energy released during such interactions is radiated into space or
stored in capacitors.

Radiation is the most likely route of energy dissipation, for
thermodynamic reasons. The black globe behaves like a black hole when
stuff is thrown at it. Some of the energy is stored in the capacitors
(exact fraction depends on TL).

Unfortunately, using this idea makes BGs much less 'stealthy' than
described in canon.

Slight digression :-
As described in TNE's FF&S (an electron cloud), they sound like the
field used to cover New York in the James Blish short story 'The Box' -
all the ozone that came off the field, and the electrical injuries
sustained by those that contacted it...

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #533
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 534



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Very l-o-o-o-o-n-g ports query
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Biotech
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Fuel Stations 
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Very l-o-o-o-o-n-g ports query
Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 
Re: Connection between Norris and Strephon
Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs
The Imperium as a planetary owner
Golf (with an Ob Trav)
Imperial Starports

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:54:46 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>>Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still connected, and pumping
>>LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang outside the jump
>>field? In this case the explosive bolts are only used when the ship
>>actually jumps, and the tanks are discarded into jump space.
>
>Then the question is how can you jump with drop tanks right
>next to you, but not with anything else.

For the same reason the ship's bridge, fuel tanks, engineering, cargo,
staterooms, and everything else "right next to" the jump drive goes along
with the ship. The mechanism depends on your personal jump theory; the jump
grid believers will say drop tanks must have a grid on their surface
connected to the ship's jump grid; the jump coil crowd would say the tanks
have to be built inside the generated jump field.

How can the ship jump within 10 diameters of the drop tank? The same way it
can jump within 10 diameters of a grappled craft, sensor array, or
interstellar hydrogen atoms. Theories have included that the restriction
only applies to objects larger than the ship, that the danger is to the
outermost areas of the ship (like the jump tanks themselves), or that the
"10 diameter limit" is actually a simplification of a more complex rule.
Again, the handwave depends on YTU.

Why can't you carry other stuff with the drop tanks? You can, but it gets
destroyed along with the tanks.

Starships have been jumping with things "right next to" them since Book 1.
Jump tanks don't change anything. The reason for the "discard into jump
space" theory is to explain why jump tanks cannot be reused *without*
adding any more wacky jump drive behavior. The big flaw with the theory is
the  "ships eject tanks then jump" quote in JTAS 2.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:03:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

> >> ObTrav:  Ambassador Duke as a PC...
> >
> >There goes the *new* keyboard!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> 
> 
> I thought *everyone* had already played a Duke as a PC (and NPC, now that I
> think about it...) Lordknows I have, several times.

We're talking *UNCLE* Duke, from Doonesbury.  The guy who's patterned on Dr Hunter S. Thompson, former stringer for 'Rolling Stone', author of 'Fear and Loathing in <wherever>'.  A total wild man.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:34:28 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Very l-o-o-o-o-n-g ports query

TMLers,

Sorry about including the whole post in my query. Won't happen again.

BTW I meant SPA not STA

Very embarrassed, and if you want to, flame on. 

I deserve it.

Michael Hughes

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:01:25 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>I started plugging ships into my spreadsheet.  I get a 24% increase
>in cargo/passenger space for a free trader.  My jump-4 ship got
>a 183% increase.  Furthermore, without drop tanks the amount
>of cargo goes steadily down and the price goes steadily up
>so that, if you account for the fact that a faster ship can
>deliver more cargo, you peak out at about J-2 as the most
>optimal.  With drop tanks this all changes.  You cargo changes
>a little and you price doesn't go up as fast as your speed, so
>the most efficient is jump-6.

Which might explain the reduction in Oberlindes Lines stock
when it was announced that the Tukera drop capable ships are on the way.

BTW, your calcs above depend on making the ship completely dependant on drop
tanks.
This might be acceptable on a safe Core route. But it would be a big risk
relying on this in the Spinward Marches.

>There realy is no reason why
>all long distance cargos wouldn't go jump-6.

Yes, there is actually.
Existing capital expenditure. (i.e: we can't afford a new ship now)
The fact that not all worlds are Jump-6 apart  The fact that not all worlds
have support for drop-tanks.

Perhaps the real costs of the capacitors used to allow drop-tanks are being
hidden as part of an attempt to break into the market.
Maybe every five thousand hours you have to replace those capacitors.

Or, perhaps as the raw materiels being used in these capacitors become more
in demand the price will increase (perhaps this has already happened) making
new drop-tank ships too expensive.

There are all sorts of reasons that can be used to explain this. Think about
why not all ships in the real world are not super tankers or container
ships, and why not all aircraft flights go between main cities.


>(Now I think
>that J-4 X-boats aren't a problem with the existing traveller
>universe, but in this case it would be).

Which is why they're slowly being replaced by a J6 network. Rememember,
replacing the boat isn't the difficulty, it's the support services that
cost, and the political fallout if you remove a world from the network.

>I should be noted that 25% is easily enough to drive non-drop
>tank ships out of business.

Only if the infrastructure is already in place, and only _where_ the
infrastructure is in place.

>>Rather than spend time and energy debating why drop tanks *can't* work the
>>way they're supposed to, why not figure out how they *can*?
>
>I'll tell you my issue....
>
>The problem is when we get into a situation where the player
>reads the effect and says "great, I want to be able to use this
>with collapable tanks".  You give him an arbitrary reason, that
>doesn't follow from the described effect, why you can push
>them away, but you can't pull them in.

I wouldn't. I'd say he can _use_ them.

But, a collapsible tank that you take with you doesn't give you anything
over internal tankage.
The reason you leave the drop tanks behind is that you don't have to jump
with the mass of the tanks that way.
Maybe a collapsible tank provides a slight reduction on mass over normal
tanks, but it wouldn't be much.

It might let you use cargo space for tankage if you wanted.

>Then he says, "well, can I use these capacitors with my weapons.
>You give him an arbitrary reason, that doesn't follow from the
>described effect, why you can use that energy for one purpose
>and not for another.

Or you give him a non-arbitrary reason that _does_ follow from the described
effect, such as the one I detailed recently, about the lack of materiels or
force technology capable of regulating such super high currents.

>Then he says, "Well, I want to set up a jump station so my
>ships can jump w/out fuel".  You give him an arbitrary reason,
>that doesn't follow from the described effect, why they
>have to be disposable."

Or you don't. I'd say you can use a "jump-station".  It's not that it's
physically impossible, but that it's non-profitable.
Playing with high energy is dangerous, one mistake and you can kiss good-bye
to your multi-billion credit jump station. And it may not be your mistake.
Some tramp trader comes through with an improperly synchronized switching
unit, and bang !

Them dangerous jump things should be done as far away from expensive
stations as possible.

Or say they do exist, then there's the economic argument. There's no way a
single ship can make a proftable run on the routes that supported such a
system, as the big companies would control the stations, (or at least get
larger volume discounts).
The only place a free trader could make money is _outside_ the main runs
where these stations don't exist.

>The he puts aside the other things he was thinking of doing
>(like reducing jump drive cost and volume by moving the power
>plant to the jump stations and just transmitting power)

Which doesn't really help because the power plant is required for all the
_other_ things apart from jump, including maintaining the jump field and
life support. Remember, the high energy capacitors cannot be regulated, they
discharge in one large  burst.

You could install lower energy cpacitirs to provide this energy. but that
would be like using a glider for freight transportation or passenger
service.  One might then speculate on why there are only military and
recreational uses for gliders IRL.

Brings up a great idea though,. cheap military troop transports, no power
plant, injected into jump-space, rely on minimal maneuvering jets on the
other side, or pickup by a fleet tender. Also useful for bulk cargo runs.
Hey, I like this idea, one could have players investigate why the cargo pods
are going missing. Or have them ride a miitary "glider", and realize why no
pilot likes being such a sitting duck...

Still, there's the problem of the danger of feeding all that power in and
having it go boom.

>and
>thinks, "if they didn't want ships to use so much fuel, then
>why didn't they just design the background that way?"
>
>Now you have alternative explination of how jump tanks work.
>(like dropping them in jump space).  But these invalidate the
>TNS entry as well, it seems really hokey that you can't jump
>with anything nearby _except_ if it is a fuel tank, and, most
>importantly, I believe that if you set up something fundamental
>like needing a lot of fuel to jump and then later on have a
>technology appear that get around this for one type of use, and
>one type of use only, it just feels hokey and contrived (since
>it is).

You misunderstand the effect of drop tanks. It does _not_ get around the
amount of fuel you need to jump, you still need the same amount of fuel, it
just reduces the internal tankage requirements allowing smaller ships to
jump further.

It only becomes hokey and contrived if you try to limit the possibilities
for no good reason. This is the same in almost any game. You should never
say "such and such is impossible because..".  You say "Are you aware of the
problems with that approach ?"
Nothing is ever impossible, there are just good reasons why it isn't (or
hasn't been) done.

One good approach, if you're not the sort of person who come up with good
and consistent drawbacks on the fly, is the psycho-analyst approach. If your
players say "Why can't we do X?", respond with "Why do you think you can't
do X?". Be careful about being too obvious though, as then they'll just give
facetious answers. Often, with this approach, the players will convince
themselkves they don't realy want to try that, especially if you grin evily
when they mention a possible negative consequence.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:20:54 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >>Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still connected, and pumping
> >>LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang outside the jump
> >>field? In this case the explosive bolts are only used when the ship
> >>actually jumps, and the tanks are discarded into jump space.
> >
> >Then the question is how can you jump with drop tanks right
> >next to you, but not with anything else.
> 
> For the same reason the ship's bridge, fuel tanks, engineering, cargo,
> staterooms, and everything else "right next to" the jump drive goes along
> with the ship. The mechanism depends on your personal jump theory; the jump
> grid believers will say drop tanks must have a grid on their surface
> connected to the ship's jump grid; the jump coil crowd would say the tanks
> have to be built inside the generated jump field.

I'm a gridder.  IMTU, the grid forms a jump bubble a couple meters from the 
hull in the shape of the grid.

> Why can't you carry other stuff with the drop tanks? You can, but it gets
> destroyed along with the tanks.

Not if it's fully contained inside the jump bubble.

> Starships have been jumping with things "right next to" them since Book 1.
> Jump tanks don't change anything. The reason for the "discard into jump
> space" theory is to explain why jump tanks cannot be reused *without*
> adding any more wacky jump drive behavior. The big flaw with the theory is
> the  "ships eject tanks then jump" quote in JTAS 2.

You ditch the tanks.  If they clear the bubble, fine, they don't go for the ride.  If they don't *quite* clear it, some of it comes with and the rest is left behind.  Either way, who cares?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:45:56 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Biotech

Has anyone done anything in Tx with biotech like that in EFC (Skrill, CVIs, 
ect)?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:50:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> BTW, your calcs above depend on making the ship completely dependant on drop
> tanks.
> This might be acceptable on a safe Core route. But it would be a big risk
> relying on this in the Spinward Marches.

It could *help* explain why freight transport pretty much collapsed during the 
Rebellion, too.  I seem to recall a figure of interstellar trade being down on 
the order of 90%.
 
> >>Rather than spend time and energy debating why drop tanks *can't* work the
> >>way they're supposed to, why not figure out how they *can*?
> >
> >I'll tell you my issue....
> >
> >The problem is when we get into a situation where the player
> >reads the effect and says "great, I want to be able to use this
> >with collapable tanks".  You give him an arbitrary reason, that
> >doesn't follow from the described effect, why you can push
> >them away, but you can't pull them in.
> 
> I wouldn't. I'd say he can _use_ them.
> 
> But, a collapsible tank that you take with you doesn't give you anything
> over internal tankage.

Correct.

> The reason you leave the drop tanks behind is that you don't have to jump
> with the mass of the tanks that way.

The reason you leave the tanks behind, under HG, is because it lowers your 
total displacement, and the engines are calculated on displacement.  A bigger 
engine in a smaller ship will go farther.

> Maybe a collapsible tank provides a slight reduction on mass over normal
> tanks, but it wouldn't be much.

Collapsable tankage doesn't gain you a thing, really.  If you're looking for 
maximum cargo space, strip out all but power plant fuel and use drop tanks / 
fueling stations / whatever.  But the first time somebody takes out your 
fueling station, you're *STUCK* until you can get some drop tanks shipped in.  
And in backwater systems, that could be a good long wait.
 
> It might let you use cargo space for tankage if you wanted.

Cargo space you can't use costs you money.
 
> >Then he says, "Well, I want to set up a jump station so my
> >ships can jump w/out fuel".  You give him an arbitrary reason,
> >that doesn't follow from the described effect, why they
> >have to be disposable."
> 
> Or you don't. I'd say you can use a "jump-station".  It's not that it's
> physically impossible, but that it's non-profitable.
> Playing with high energy is dangerous, one mistake and you can kiss good-bye
> to your multi-billion credit jump station. And it may not be your mistake.
> Some tramp trader comes through with an improperly synchronized switching
> unit, and bang !

IMTU, it's *possible* to have ships with just power plant fuel jump just off 
fueling stations, but the location of the campaign (Reavers' Deep) *and* the 
era (ca 1123, late Rebellion period) preclude the ease of finding a working 
fueling station.  In the Deep, they're just not there, even in relatively 
civilised areas like Caledon.  The advantages are known, of course, but so are 
the downsides, and no Caledonian wants to be stuck anywhere, really.
 
> >The he puts aside the other things he was thinking of doing
> >(like reducing jump drive cost and volume by moving the power
> >plant to the jump stations and just transmitting power)
> 
> Which doesn't really help because the power plant is required for all the
> _other_ things apart from jump, including maintaining the jump field and
> life support. Remember, the high energy capacitors cannot be regulated, they
> discharge in one large  burst.

The discharge just opens up the jump point.  The power plant keeps the bubble 
raised.
 
> >and
> >thinks, "if they didn't want ships to use so much fuel, then
> >why didn't they just design the background that way?"
> >
> >Now you have alternative explination of how jump tanks work.
> >(like dropping them in jump space).  But these invalidate the
> >TNS entry as well, it seems really hokey that you can't jump
> >with anything nearby _except_ if it is a fuel tank, and, most
> >importantly, I believe that if you set up something fundamental
> >like needing a lot of fuel to jump and then later on have a
> >technology appear that get around this for one type of use, and
> >one type of use only, it just feels hokey and contrived (since
> >it is).
> 
> You misunderstand the effect of drop tanks. It does _not_ get around the
> amount of fuel you need to jump, you still need the same amount of fuel, it
> just reduces the internal tankage requirements allowing smaller ships to
> jump further.

That's basically my take on it.  I've had characters get drop tanks to use on 
a one shot trip because they had to be someplace in under 3 weeks, while if 
they would have stuck to the normally accessible route, it would have taken a 
couple months or so.  They burned the drop tank fuel, ditched the tanks, and 
jumped into empty space, then did a 24 hr check on the drives and finished the 
jump.  They didn't hack away all their tankage because they knew there were 
limited possibilities of getting more drop tanks.
 
> It only becomes hokey and contrived if you try to limit the possibilities
> for no good reason. This is the same in almost any game. You should never
> say "such and such is impossible because..".  You say "Are you aware of the
> problems with that approach ?"
> Nothing is ever impossible, there are just good reasons why it isn't (or
> hasn't been) done.

Yup.
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 03:10:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations 

> Keven Pittsinger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Which just shows that you *DON'T* want cheepie tanks.  One good solid hit with a chunk of gravel and the tank *bursts*.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Keven, one good solid hit with a fast enough chunk of gravel and
> factor-15 armor "bursts". Cheapie has nothing to do with it.

Cheapies are more vulnerable.  If you hit an armoured fuel station, broken 
tankage is going to be the *least* of your worries.
 
> Keven again:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> You mean, replacing.  Got a question for ya.  Figure you need to replace 
> those cheepie tanks every 6 months due to bursts, pinholing, whatever.  
> How much would those cheepie tanks *cost* you over a 10-year period?  
> How much would a regular *hull metal* tank cost you?  Remember that the 
> station is designed for an operational lifetime of *decades*, if not a century 
> or two.  You *don't* need a TL15 gas station when a TL9 or 10 one will do.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> And me without my High Guard books to hand. :)
> 
> A hull will wear out in approximately 40 years. It will need to be returned for 
> maintenance every year. It costs Cr100000 per ton, plus whatever it will cost 
> in bridge, power, life support, etc.

A hull will last more than 40 years.  You can concievably get 5 recipts of 
'Free Trader', which gives you a 40 year old ship that's totally paid off and 
still useable.  And *perfect* for rolling on the 'ship's quirks' table 
somebody posted a URL to here a couple weeks ago.  <grin>
 
> A disposable tank needs to cost about Cr1250 per ton to match this,
> but I'm only counting the Cr100000/tn cost of starship-grade hull, not
> the power, bridge, etc. requirements. I don't recall the cost of drop tanks,
> but I'm not sure drop tanks are the best choice for this anyway.

Bridge, power plant, life support, etc is *in addition to* the 100KCr/ton of a 
hull.  And that hull is *strong*, AF40 in Striker or MT.  There's no *way* you 
can convince me that a drop tank is that strong, which is what I base my 
opinions on.  If it *were* possible, hulls would be two orders of magnitude 
cheaper.
 
> A fuel tank can be deployed that is not intended to carry fuel through
> jump space. It will be filled by tankers at the site, and transported
> empty (or even collapsed) back for refurbishment. I'm thinking that
> dismountable tanks may be the ticket here, but I don't recall the price
> of them. They're rigid, so should last longer than 6-months.

No clue, really.  In 'The Traveller Adventure', a set of 50 ton dismountables 
is quoted as 50KCr, but IMNSFBHO, that's too low for a semipermenant fixture. 
500KCr is more in line, methinks.
 
> If the GM doesn't want fuel stations, he can easily make them impractical.
> That's a TU decision, what's to argue about?

Or have them be a corporate fueling point, and unless the characters happen to work for that corporation, they're SOL.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 03:18:27 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Very l-o-o-o-o-n-g ports query

In a message dated 99-04-30 02:14:36 EDT, you write:

<< TMLers,
 
 Sorry about including the whole post in my query. Won't happen again.
 
 BTW I meant SPA not STA
 
 Very embarrassed, and if you want to, flame on. 
 
 I deserve it.
 
 Michael Hughes >>

If someone gets the flamethrower, I'll get the marshmellows, and what not!
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:58:01 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

Of course I know who he is... I own all of Thompson's books, and almost
every Doonesbury...   My favorite character of all time was ripped straight
out of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

Ob Traveller:  Who has PCs that use drugs?  I mean, aside from the medical
and Psi-stuff?  Or all we all playing straight-arrow boy scouts?

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com


- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs


>> >> ObTrav:  Ambassador Duke as a PC...
>> >
>> >There goes the *new* keyboard!!!!!!!!!!!
>> >
>>
>>
>> I thought *everyone* had already played a Duke as a PC (and NPC, now that
I
>> think about it...) Lordknows I have, several times.
>
>We're talking *UNCLE* Duke, from Doonesbury.  The guy who's patterned on Dr
Hunter S. Thompson, former stringer for 'Rolling Stone', author of 'Fear and
Loathing in <wherever>'.  A total wild man.
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:15:56 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Connection between Norris and Strephon

Dear Folks -

Jeff said;
>Actually, I think that Strephon is Strephon Aledon Alkhalikoi,
>and Norris is Norris Aella Aledon.  And ISTR that there _is_ a
>family connection there, somewhere.

Ah, no, Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi is the name of the Emperor (see my
Library Data!  ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:40:00 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

>Ob Traveller:  Who has PCs that use drugs?  I mean, aside from the medical
>and Psi-stuff?  Or all we all playing straight-arrow boy scouts?

In our Mad Mike's Marauders game I had a black Moslem Solomani fighter pilot
known as "Hash" Mahommet who always had a toke "to calm his nerves" before
every combat op.

And doen't every Scout modify his hydroponics unit to grow marijuana ?
Or create a still ?

Our current Alternity game has two alcoholic characters in it, and don't
talk about the Cult of Ecstacy mages.....

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:25:17 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: The Imperium as a planetary owner

> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> Subject: The Imperium as a planetary owner
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> I would tend to agree that the Imperium, at least by 1100, would own a few
> worlds directly. However, you might consider that this is right against the
> original philosophy of only controlling the "space _between_ worlds".
> 
> Anyone with a reconciliation? Or should this have come out as part of the
> Debate over a new Imperial Charter/Warrant?

I don't see any conflict.  There are two kinds of worlds in the
Imperium:  (1) member states, which maintain their sovereignty subject
to the requirements of membership in the Imperium, and (2) worlds wholly
owned by the Imperium, which are simply Imperial installations.  

Remember, the Imperium also owns, or at least controls, starports, which
are often located on the surface of a member world.  Similarly, Imperial
naval and Scout bases are not located in space.  Ownership and control
of these installations is not an extension of Imperial power into the
governance of member worlds.  

The bottom line is that the phrase "controlling the 'space _between_
worlds'" is just shorthand for a more complex concept.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:55:10 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Golf (with an Ob Trav)

> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Golf (with an Ob Trav) (was Re: Market it right and it's not
> smuggling...)

> What would be the recreation sport of the high Soc travellers?
> I can easily imagine that golf might survive.  But wouldn't there
> be a more Traveller-ish game, perhaps originating among
> Vilani nobility.  A game that is somewhat elitist, and doesn't
> require any marked physical fitness that is leisurely.  The kind
> of game where more business is done than in the boardroom.
> 
> Any ideas?  The harder I think about it, the more I think its
> just good ol' golf.
 
(1)  I'm sure that golf will sweep through the Ziru Sirka during the
latter part of the Interstellar Wars and the beginning of the Rule of
Man.  It's just too perfect a game for the Vilani.  By the time of the
founding of the Third Imperium, many Vilani will believe that it is
actually a Vilani game that has become popular among the Solomani.

(2)  X-Files variant:  Golf is a Vilani game.  A Vilani ship crashed off
the Orkney Islands in Pictish times.  The survivors were able to salvage
their golf clubs and manual.  After founding the Pictish culture and
making the bagpipe a more efficient weapon, they settled down to relax
and taught the Scots how to play golf.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:29:45 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Imperial Starports

> From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
> Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Imperial Starports
> 
> I got a few queries about Imperial starports. 
> 
> 1)      Does the Imperium control all starports in a system or just the
> best one on the mainworld? If they  control all, does this include F, G & H? 

It depends on the particular system.

> 2)      Can someone who evades the local customs/police etc. claim asylum
> in an Imperial Starport, or would the STA boss simply pass 'em or would it be
> up to him/her as circumstances dictate? 

Normally, the Imperial Starport Authority (SPA) and the local world
government cooperate on matters of pursuit, extradition, smuggling,
etc., but (1) Imperial policy may dictate different results and (2) the
SPA has considerable discretion.  

The only circumstance under which a citizen of an Imperial member state
can claim Imperial asylum is escape from slavery.  

> 3)      Would imperial marines be garrisoned at the ports as security, or
> would it just be tendered by STA to a local security company (or do the STA
> have their own security forces)?

I don't remember, but there is an article on Starport Authority in the
Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society which will give the answer.

> 4)      Would an imperial governor (do all imperial world's have them?)

No.  Most member worlds of the Imperium are self-governing.  An Imperial
marquis may be appointed over a world and a count over two or three
worlds.  These Imperial nobles exercise vast powers over the worlds
assigned to them.  Only worlds of strategic importance to the Imperium
are under such direct Imperial control.  I suspect that most of these
are near the core of the Imperium.  

> have his/her/its residence at the port? 

An Imperial marquis in charge of an entire world would probably maintain
an estate somewhere on the world.  In addition, a marquis is normally
granted a fief on a very large scale for personal use.  

> If so, would he/she/it have a bunch of marines as guards?

(The following is definitely in my Traveller universe, and not addressed
in canon.)  Prior to Empress Arbellatra's reforms, the Imperial armed
forces were often raised by Imperial nobles and owed loyalty to them. 
The Emperors of the Flag were all admirals whose main power bases were
the personnel in their fleets, who owed them, not the Emperor, fealty as
vassals.  Arbellatra brought the Imperial naval and military forces into
the civil service model, with conscription, merit promotions, officer
academies, abolition of purchases and grants of commissions, etc.  Most
important, Arbellatra created a culture in which Imperial naval and
military personnel owed loyalty directly to the Emperor and the
Imperium, not to intermediate liege lords.

So, the answer to your question is, it depends on the time period.  In
the CT/MT/GT time frames, the Imperial noble of the levels indicated
would be responsible for his or her own guards.  The noble would have
the authority to call on the regular Imperial forces for assistance as
needed.

> 5)      Would the imperial navy have crew stationed at port batteries/screens?

Only in time of war, when starports are converted to naval facilities.

> 6)      Would people travelling in sub or small craft from port to elsewhere
> on the planet, need to go through customs first?

Yes, you have to clear customs every time you enter the starport, and
every time you enter the member world from the starport.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #534
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 535



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Goodbye for now...
Re: CT character gen programs
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Very l-o-o-o-o-n-g ports query
Drugs (was Thanks for the latest ObTravs)
Re: Copyright 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Do jump drives create power ?
Re: Background hook: New starport
Sneaky (stolen) scenarios (was Re: RPG Paranoia)
Traveller World Map -> Globe
Imperial Starports
Re: Do jump drives create power
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #525
Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs
Re: A good one for Murphy's Rules
Re: Hazing Rituals
Re: low tech melee weapons
Re: low tech weapons
Re: Fuel Stations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:45:43 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

> From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

> ObTrav:  Does the Imperium restrict the sale of any kind of hand 
> weapon (not to a world but to individuals)?  Why or Why Not?

The Imperium hardly restricts anything (at least by the CT era).  Aside
from nuclear weapons, which we've been discussing recently, the only
other weapon that the Imperium prohibits, so far as I know, is a certain
Hiver warbot, individual possession of which is an Imperial High Crime.  

The Imperium's extremely laissez-faire attitude arises from its
perception of itself as far stronger than any internal threat -- and it
does what it must to keep itself that strong.  E.g., only the Imperium
has fleets of warships.  A given member state may raise a squadron or
two, but not enough to threaten the peace of the realm.  

In the scale of Imperial concerns, destruction related to weapons that
can only kill dozens of people at a time is just too small to worry
about.  That's in the jurisdiction of member states.  The Emperor has
much bigger fish to fry.

The foregoing to the contrary notwithstanding, of course, the Imperium
does regulate weapons possession on Imperial installations of any kind
- -- starports, Capital, research stations, naval/military/Scout
facilities, etc.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:36:19 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Goodbye for now...

My work is taking me out of Australia for a while, so I am unsubscribing
from this group and moving on. I will miss the topics and the humor that has
made this list as good as it is. After three years of reading this list and
making the occasional comment, or asking a few dozen questions, I will
really miss this daily routine. Thanks for everything.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 03:06:43 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

> The implication is that high ranking Marines are well connected,
> but high ranking Navy are well educated.  I would have expected
> it to go the other way, based on the military people I know.

How many people do you know from the Imperium's military?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 03:11:27 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Very l-o-o-o-o-n-g ports query

> From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>

> Sorry about including the whole post in my query. Won't happen again.

> Very embarrassed, and if you want to, flame on. 
> 
> I deserve it.

Oh, don't worry about it.  As we say in my country, shit happens.  

We'll flame you to cinders if it happens twice, of course.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 03:30:27 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Drugs (was Thanks for the latest ObTravs)

> From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

> Ob Traveller:  Who has PCs that use drugs?  I mean, aside from the medical
> and Psi-stuff?  Or all we all playing straight-arrow boy scouts?

My PCs never seem to find drugs, except caffeine, alcohol, and aspirin
- -- but then I haven't run many mercenaries who would look for combat
drug or slow drug.

On the other hand, a campaign that I ran included drugs and drug dealing
as part of the Fifth Frontier War.  I called the drug "bubble".  It was
a psionic booster/inducer.  It stimulated the part of the brain that
produces psionic phenomena, so even untrained or apparently
zero-potential humans would experience various psionic effects.  It was
normally cut with a hallucinogen so that the users wouldn't be able to
separate the boosted psi from non-psi hallucinations, and with a
synthetic opiate to make it highly addictive.  

The Imperials assumed that the Zhodanis were behind its importation, for
the purpose of destabilizing the Spinward Marches in preparation for
invasion.  The Zhodanis assumed that the Imperials were using it to
destabilize Cronor subsector.  In fact, the Confederation of Arden was
behind it.  Arden, in cooperation with SuSAG, LIC, had developed the
drug as a psychological warfare weapon.  A rogue SuSAG manager saw an
opportunity to make a lot of money as the sole manufacturer of a highly
addictive drug, and engaged certain Ine Givar elements to sell it on the
most loyal Imperial worlds.  

Because of real world concerns, the campaign didn't get to the part
where the PCs are involved in any of several attempts (INI, Zhodani
intelligence, Ine Givar political wing, etc.) to take out the SuSAG
manager and the Arden manufacturing facility.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:32:26 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright 

At 18:49 29/04/1999 -0400, "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com> wrote:
>Okay, so Vilani copyright laws impede technological innovation and the
>development of new devices. And that's why there's only been a 2 GTL jump in
>1000 years (from GTL 10 to GTL 12). What's stopping the Darrians from
>re-establishing GTL 13? Why hasn't the Zhodani Consulate bypassed the
>Imperium technologically?

There is a misunderstanding here, I thought it was Vilani copyright laws
that kept the First Imperium static at GTL10 for ten millenia.

Solomani influence in the Second Imperium must have freed things up alot.
The Third Imperium probably implements something more like modern day Earth,
in Vilani terms that would probably make it look like an anarchy with
no proper concept of intellectual property.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:32:33 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
>
>BTW, your calcs above depend on making the ship completely dependant on drop
>tanks.
>This might be acceptable on a safe Core route. But it would be a big risk
>relying on this in the Spinward Marches.

Frank, you are edging close to the Great Piracy Debate.

Please dont go there.

Personally, I would argue the Marches are, as a heavily militarized
frontier, among the more secure places in the Imperium.

After all, there is a BatRon of Tigresses per fleet, and an average of a
fleet per subsector, right ?

>
>>There realy is no reason why
>>all long distance cargos wouldn't go jump-6.
>
>Yes, there is actually.
>Existing capital expenditure. (i.e: we can't afford a new ship now)
>The fact that not all worlds are Jump-6 apart  The fact that not all worlds
>have support for drop-tanks.

Drop tanks result in substantial per parsec efficiency increases for jump-4
to -6 craft.

Drop ships actually have a smaller capital requirement *per dton of carried
cargo*, which makes them far easier to afford. The smaller capital costs
also make them less vulnerable to jumps in interest rates.

Even if only the Golden Routes (Trin-Mora for example) go to drop tanks
initially, there will be major knock on effects, as internal tankage ships
are forced away from the Golden Routes and onto secondary and tertiary routes.

>
>Perhaps the real costs of the capacitors used to allow drop-tanks are being
>hidden as part of an attempt to break into the market.
>Maybe every five thousand hours you have to replace those capacitors.
>
>Or, perhaps as the raw materiels being used in these capacitors become more
>in demand the price will increase (perhaps this has already happened) making
>new drop-tank ships too expensive.
>
>There are all sorts of reasons that can be used to explain this. Think about
>why not all ships in the real world are not super tankers or container
>ships, and why not all aircraft flights go between main cities.

That explains the mule train I saw on the way back from Goulburn.

Some technologies are so efficient as to be revolutionary. Drop tanks for
Traveller starships are such a technology.

The other thing to remember is that drop tank ships can be built as small
as any other freighter.

>>I should be noted that 25% is easily enough to drive non-drop
>>tank ships out of business.
>
>Only if the infrastructure is already in place, and only _where_ the
>infrastructure is in place.

The infrastructure is cheap. Real cheap. It's shuttles carrying tanks.

Remember, you are using less of those expensive jump drives and so on per
dton of cargo moved.

>Or you don't. I'd say you can use a "jump-station".  It's not that it's
>physically impossible, but that it's non-profitable.

Prove it. The numbers that have been kicked around indicate at least a 25%
jump in efficiency - and thats assuming amortisation of the shuttles and
tankage.

>Playing with high energy is dangerous, one mistake and you can kiss good-bye
>to your multi-billion credit jump station. 

You are talking tankage and hose, plus a small command module, a power
plant and a bunch of external grapples for shuttles. The whole thing would
be in the KCr 100 per dton range.

>Or say they do exist, then there's the economic argument. There's no way a
>single ship can make a proftable run on the routes that supported such a
>system, as the big companies would control the stations, (or at least get
>larger volume discounts).

The model for ports, airports and petrol stations is a 3rd party owns them,
and various companies lease space and services.

I see no reason for jump tanks to be any different - it's just a matter of
shuttles to take and connect full tanks to the ships.

>The only place a free trader could make money is _outside_ the main runs
>where these stations don't exist.

Ahhh, but they are now competing with all the corporate internal-tankage
ships forced off the Golden Runs.

>You misunderstand the effect of drop tanks. It does _not_ get around the
>amount of fuel you need to jump, you still need the same amount of fuel, it
>just reduces the internal tankage requirements allowing smaller ships to
>jump further.

Drop tanks dont do this. Drop tanks allow more payload to be moved, by not
requiring you to take all that empty tankage with you into jumpspace.

>
>It only becomes hokey and contrived if you try to limit the possibilities
>for no good reason. This is the same in almost any game. You should never
>say "such and such is impossible because..".  You say "Are you aware of the
>problems with that approach ?"
>Nothing is ever impossible, there are just good reasons why it isn't (or
>hasn't been) done.
>

There is another explainiation. It seemed like a good idea at the time, and
the designers didnt bother to run through the implications.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:38:29 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Do jump drives create power ?

>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power
>
>>You'd also have to handwave why I cannot have lots of small crystals
>>and discharge one at a time instead of all at once.
>
>No, you don't. There is nothing to prevent you doing that if you wish.
>
>But that isn't using your _jump_ capacitors to power something. That's using
>a specialy constructed smaller capacity capacitor. 

If half a 3 dton jump drive is capacitors that can contain 3*10^21 joules,
then we should be able to build a much smaller capacitor that will still
hold quantities of energy that are quite reasonable by Ditzie's standards.

If the other half of the 3 dton jump drive turns 20 dtons of LHyd into that
much power, then again we should be able to scale that down to some extent.

>If you reduce the size of
>the capacitor to the level at which you can regulate the current flow, turn
>it on and off, etc, then you have limited yourself to what conventional
>power plants can do anyway, and there is no "super-weapon" problem, and no
>real gain in doing it either.

Ummm, what we have done is enabled much bigger weapons in much smaller
packages.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:48:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-04-27 23:31:20 EDT, you write:
>
> << Jules Verne "From the Earth to the Moon". Tampa (opposite side of the
>  penninsula from Kennedy) was the site of the cannon that launched the
>  vehicle. 
>  
>  Hmmm. I wonder if that would work on a size 1 planet? :-) >>
>
> I would work hear on good Terra-Ferma.  A sci fair project that just did was 
> about it.  By using a massive coil gun (dug into a pit in the ground, no 
> less) you could asserate a space craft past exsape velocity, dramticaly 
> reducing the weight that you need to put into orbit.
> -Stephen

I meant "work for a manned vehicle". :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:19:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Sneaky (stolen) scenarios (was Re: RPG Paranoia)

In mail you write:

> I took the idea from the John Wayne movie 'The Green Berrets' and really
> played it up.  With the 'little kid' always underfoot and trying desperately
> to help the 'heros' and 'saviors of the people'.  I arranged for a long
> seccion to finish up the senerio (to keep tention running high).  I open the
> seccion with some bad battle news and desperate times for the locals, then
> had the 'masscot' overhear the PCs planing and take it on herself to
> acomplish the mission they could not figure a way to do without excesive
> loses.  That and the 'sermon' the local religious leader who was rich and
> would never risk himself gave afterward praising the 'sacrifice' for the
> cause, was all the PC could take.
>
> My girlfriend was the 'peace nick' (always is, and she is very good at it).
> She figured out that the game was 'that John Wayne army movie' just after
> the mascot died.  Boy was she POed at me for blindsiding her but she took up
> the part of 'Petter-son' with a vengence.
>
> If you can pull it off you can really get the players emotionally into this
> senerio but it probably would not be wise to have prespective new gamers as
> observers at the last session.  If the PCs are really into it, they can be a
> bit intence and down right scary to those who have not played RPGs before.
> You know you 'got them' when they are hovering over the table, dice held
> like weapons, and trying to out race each other to do violence to head bad 
> guy.
>
> One thing that may have contributed to the intensity of this particular game
> was the the PCs were free traders that had only a bar room brawl or two in
> the campain up till they were stranded on this world.  I personally think
> that combat in traveller (outside mercinary campains) works best when used
> like pepper.  A little dash every now and then so that when they bite into
> the chile pepper it really makes an impression!

You remind me of the scenario I've always wanted to pull on some
"hack'n slash" type gamers. It's based on a song. "One Tin Soldier"
(aka "theme to Billy Jack").

For those not familar with it...

We've got a "kingdom on a mountain" and "the valley folk". Legend has
it that the mountain people have an incredibly valuable treasure buried
beneath a stone. 

So the valley people send a message demanding the treasure. The reply?
"With our brothers we will share,
 all the treasures of our mountain,
 all the riches buried there."

This pisses off the valley folk and they attack the mountain kingdom to
get the treasure that they "deserve". 

Finally they stand beside the stone, having slain all the mountain
people. 

"Now they stood beside the treasure,
 on the mountain dark and red.
 Turned the stone and looked beneath it.
 'Peace on Earth' was all it said..."

[at this point the reply from the mountain folks looks a *lot*
different, doesn't it?]

I've run into *many* a gamer who'd fall for the vallet people's cause,
hook, line and sinker. And the look on their faces when they realized
how badly they'd let their greed sucker them into the massacre would be
priceless.

It ought to be doable in Traveller. Maybe make it a system with two
planets, though the original mountain vs valley bit works just as well
and is likely better suited to an average party.

Wiping out what amounts to a harmless religious community ought to give
them lots of "karma" to work off. Mostly in the form of a reputation
it'll take a *long* time to get rid of.

Can you *imagine* the sort of contact offers a merc unit would get
after word of something like this got around? <eg>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:03:36 -0300
From: Les_Howie@keane.com
Subject: Traveller World Map -> Globe

Has anyone out there looked at the math of projecting the standard traveller map
(essentially a Fuller globe) on to a sphere (and vice-versa)?  Its been a while
since I did any spherical trig or map projections, so any tips or pointers to
references would be appreciated.

That map was actually one of the main attractions for me back when I ran
traveller.  I would cut the maps out and tape them into globes so the players
could get a "from space" look at the planet they were arriving at.  Gave it a
nice feel.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:57:41 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Imperial Starports

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:50:51 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Imperial Starports

I got a few queries about Imperial starports. 

1)	Does the Imperium control all starports in a system or just the best
one on the mainworld? If they  control all, does this include F, G & H? 

Well, F,G and H are spaceports rather than starports. The whole issue of
'what is a starport' raises it's ugly head - if my factory doesnt mind Joe
Trader landing in the car park to minimise delays when picking up a load of
widgets, then is Arlbeth Manufacturing a starport ?

2)	Can someone who evades the local customs/police etc. claim asylum in
an Imperial Starport, or would the STA boss simply pass 'em or would it be
up to him/her as circumstances dictate?

They can claim asylum. Whether or not that helps is up to the Starport
Administrator, and how much they want to stay on the right side of the
planetary authorities.

3)	Would imperial marines be garrisoned at the ports as security, or
would it just be tendered by STA to a local security company (or do the STA
have their own security forces)?

Could be either.

4)	Would an imperial governor (do all imperial world's have them?) have
his/her/its residence at the port? If so, would he/she/it have a bunch of
marines as guards?

The world would probably govern itself. The Impertial Legate (or whatever)
may or may not stay within the starport.

5)	Would the imperial navy have crew stationed at port
batteries/screens?

Maybe :)

6)	Would people travelling in sub or small craft from port to elsewhere
on the planet, need to go through customs first?

Yes. How intensive this is depends on the Law Level and such.

You might want to look at G:T Far Trader.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:09:23 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Do jump drives create power

>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power
>
>>>For a start, it's not the jump drive that creates power from hydrogen.
>>>because it's already been shown that the jump drive can take power from
>>>_any_ ultra-high current source to power it, such as a black globe's
>>>capacitors.
>
>>This is much less of a problem. As long as jump drives dont turn hydrogen
>>into energy, Ditzie wont whine about not being allowed to use them to power
>>Very Very Big Guns, and those people down at Maaaarketing wont ask why they
>>cant run Rhylanor's entire planetary power grid (for which 3*10^21 MW could
>>suffice) off a type A's jump drive.
>
>Although....  one would expect to be able to run a modern (TL8) small city
>off the normal power plant of a couple of commercial starships. 

Lets see, 3 million people at 5000 watts each. 15 000 megagwatts ... thats
a fair bit more than a 10 000 dton jump-3 ship needs to stay in jumpspace
(100x25x3, or 7500 megawatts).

Incidentally, 30 billion people at 50 000 watts each is 3x10^9x5*10^4, or
15x10^13 watts. Even if we jack their power demand up to half a megawatt
each, it's still only 1.5*10^15, or a lot less than the power a ten
megacredit type A 'jump drive qua power plant' can put out.

>>If this is true, then this technologies should be able to be applied to
>>capacitors for other high energy applications.
>
>Definitely. Black globe capacitors are the obvious application, though it
>could be the other way round, in that maybe the capacitors used in drop
>tanks were derived from those found attached to the artifact black globes.

Black globes are over-rated as a military technology in my opinion. If you
can cut the size of spinal mounts by improved capacitor technology, that
would be a real military advantage.

>>Please dont say that 'No-one's ever built a weapon that can use all that
>>power' around Ditzie :) Do we still have that Lab Ship design floating
>>around ? Ditzie is wondering if Maaaarketing would think if there would be
>>a market for an armed version ...
>
>The problem, as I see it, is finding materiels or force field technology
>capable of using and focusing all that energy, which (based on the premise)
>is enough energy to rip space-time itself,  so it's going to be difficult to
>find that technology.

The problem is scaling down the technologies involved. If Zuchai crystals
are so good at storing energy, why cant we use them in other things ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:00:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514

In mail you write:

> Cars have a purpose other than killing: getting from point A to point B.
> What purpose does a gun have other than to kill or inflict severe injury?

Target shooting, hunting (which I admit does come under your
definition). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:38:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #525

In mail you write:

> Duane Elms writes some of the best filk. Try to find a copy of 
> "Dawson's Christian" if you can...it forms one of the spacer's legends 
> IMTU. And many filk songs are songs the PC's here being sung in 
> spaceport bars.

It's not an exact fit to Traveller, but, yeah, it'll do. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:22:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 4/29/99 12:34:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> dberry@hooked.net writes:
>
> << ObTrav:  Ambassador Duke as a PC... >>
>
> ROTFLOL! Use him for an NPC. He'll drive the group crazy, or get them all 
> busted...

If *I* had to deal with Duke, I'd make sure the "diplomatic pouch" went
through *me*. That way I'd have some idea what he was ordering, and be
able to ration his drugs and weapons to some extent. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:30:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A good one for Murphy's Rules

In mail you write:

> Tom Schoene types:
>>Also, even the smallest gun does more damage than a large knife wielded by
>>a person of average strength.  
>
>    Any game systems that implements this false statement deserves a spot in
> Murphy's Rules.
> Take your pick. A shot through the thigh with a .22 short or let Joe
> Generio take a swing with a Kuri.

Hey! I object already. A .22 short won't *make it* through my thigh!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:56:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> "Hey you! Yeah you, the new Starman 1st..."
> "Yes, sir!"
> "Don't salute me, I work for a living!"
> <hurriedly reading stripes>
> "Sorry, Senior Chief"
> "Yeah, yeah. Look, run down to engineering. We're having trouble with
> the flourescents in the landing bay. Tell them I need a couple of
> gallons of plasma. Now move!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Cut to an hour later, when the Starman 1st returns pushing a big module
> on a grav-pallet. Turns out he used to be a high-energy physics major,
> who was kicked out of university for being a smartass... <G>

A smart chief will ask him what kind of plasma it is. Then tell him he
got the wrong kind. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:34:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: low tech melee weapons

In mail you write:

> Jumping in the comparisson between BattleDress and Midevil armor...
> That's a tough one to make, IMHO.  The Armor gave protection, but at a lack
> of mobilty.
> BD (as opposed to Combat Armor) allows the wearer to run at least as fast
> as normal, and probably longer.  Add a grav belt, and you have major 
> mobility.

You've fallen victim to a myth. Medieval armor was designed to restrict
mobility as little as possible. And it generaly does a *great* job.
Also, the weight is generally *less* than a typical infantry combat
load and *much* better distributed. 

I can speak with some authority, having *worn* armor.

The biggest drawback is that it gets *hot* in there.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:28:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: low tech weapons

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:
>
>> There are millions of ObTravs that you can build off of the concept.
>
> An uncontacted culture which has risen to a fairly high tech level, but
> the idea of firearms has simply never happened. Nobody thought of it. Or
> maybe the world's composition is such that the chemistry to create
> firearms is impossible or very very difficult there.
> State of the art bows (perhaps crossbows) are carried in every police grav
> car  ;)

Sorry, but *somewhere* along the line air rifles will be invented. Such
were in use as *military* weapons during the Napoleonic era.

For vehicle mount weapons, steam cannons and centrifugal machine guns
are likely. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:45:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations

In mail you write:

>> Certainly. I was just responding to Keven's assertion that cheapie fuel
>> tanks parked by a small fuel station would wear out over time.
>
> Burst, not wear out.  They're flimsier, remember?  You can make something 
> that can handle high pressure for a short period of time, but it'll fail if 
> you *keep* it at high pressure for a longer period of time.

What high pressure? We are dealing with *liquid* Hydrogen. The pressure
won't be at all high. I'm not sure what the vapor pressure of LH2 is,
but I bet it's only a few psi. So anything above that will suffice to
keep the hydrogen liquid.

And if these are "deep space" refueling points, the hydrogen will
*freeze* unless you install heaters! Anything left to itself will cool
down to 3 K, and hydrogen freezes at 14 K (it liquefies/boils at about
20.5 K)


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #535
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 536



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Earth's Starport?
Re: Fuel Stations
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Space Station
Re: Fuel Stations
Re: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #526
Re: Vilani expansion
Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power
Re: T4 Products (Missions of State)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514
Uses for "Low-tech" Weapons 
re: Fuel Stations
re: FW: Thanks for the latest ObTravs
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities
Re: Two questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:09:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Earth's Starport?

In mail you write:

> Silly Question time:
>
> Just for fun, I've worked out Earth's Traveller UPP (UWP). Which
> isn't actually that hard to do, especially since the first half of
> it is right there in the Solomani Rim book.
> Size =3D 8
> Atmosphere =3D 6
> Hydrographics =3D 7
> Population =3D 9
> Government =3D 7
> Law Level =3D take your pick
> Tech Level =3D 7 or 8
>
> With what we have on the planet now, though -- today, 1999, what kind of
> starport would we have? It has to be higher than X. A Class E starport is
> basically an open flat space with a sign saying "Land Here", and we have
> that. But do we have the kind of facilities that can justify being called
> a Class D starport? (And if so, where?)

Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Baikonur Cosmodrome. The ESA launch
site in Guyana. All have more than enough LH2 available. And at least
Kennedy has some *huge* runways, as well as lots of old launch stands
that could quickly be refurbished to handle some pretty large ships.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:39:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations

In mail you write:

>> The lasers were for antimissile defense.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Anti-missile lasers are pretty much irrelevant if you can't move. An enemy
>> can accelerate outside your effective range and just toss gravel at you.
>> 
>> Or a nice, solid nickel-iron asteroid.
>
> Which just shows that you *DON'T* want cheepie tanks.  One good solid hit 
> with a chunk of gravel and the tank *bursts*.

Not if it's designed properly and not filling "to the brim". You'll
punch a hole in the tank. But if it's a 100 or more meter sphere, made
of light materials, you'll have a hole a few cm across, and boiling LH2
escaping. Easily patched before you lose more than a few percent of the
contents. 

For that matter, the "ambient temp" is *below* the freezing point of
hydrogen. You can store it as huge balls of hydrogen ice. Damage *that*
significantly won't be easy.

And while destroying the facility *does* deny it to the enemy, it
doesn't really *help* your side much. *Capturing* it is a much better
idea. Boost everything to one side for a bit and change the transponder
frequencies and the other side won't find it easily, while your side
can. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:49:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

In mail you write:

>>>Ob Traveller:  It's a mark of good role-playing and immersion in the
>>>milieu for players to ask when they arrive on a world, "what
>>>transportation is available?" rather than, "we want to buy an
>>>air/raft."
>>
>>    OBTraveller:  It is a mark of a good role-player & immersion in the
>>milieu as well as the place for the characters to ask when they arrive o=
> n a
>>world, "Where is the nearest bar?"
>
> In most Traveller campaigns I've been in (running or just as a player),
> the first place the characters head to when they dock at the starport is
> the Starport Bar. It seems to be a universal in role-playing -- in fantasy
> games, the characters always seem to wind up at the local inn.
>
> Next adventure I run where the characters are at a Class A starport on
> a high-population, and they decide to split up with a "we'll meet in an
> hour at the bar", I'll have each character wind up in a different bar.
> The big starports would have more than one of them, right? :)

Have fun when they discover that the locals either don't use alcohol
(so they wind up in something like a Middle Eastern "coffee shop", or
the locals consider alcohol *tame*, and they check the menu to find a
list of drugs they've barely even *heard* of. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:32:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Space Station

In mail you write:

> I have a question:
> How would a moduler space station be handled?  
> What I have in mind for a campain (after I finish an ISF campain) is
> the PC group as the crew of a TL-11 ship that is part of the first
> imperial force to venture into a region of space known as "The Out"
> this region of space is a dense cluster surouned by a rift no
> imperial force has breached, yet.  By combining imperial forces with
> corprate and independant "volontears" the imperial forces hope to be
> able to exsablish a net work of bases to alow easy  axses (sp) to The
> Out.  Any comments questions, ect?

Dig out whatever ship design system you have and design modules as if
they were sections of a ship. You don't need a drive, but at least a
bit of power and life support several hours to a day worth. And
airlocks or at least air-tight hatches where they connect to other
modules. You'll also want some "engineering" modules that contain
nothing but power or life support, or sensors, along with the required
controls. 

The modules are best transported by using a ship that normally handles
some sort of small craft or other ship about the same size.

So, for example, you could use the old "modular cutter" design. But I
think the best bet would be an old, retired or about to be retired
battle rider carrier (likely TL-10). That lets the modules be the size
of a battlerider, which is a lot more convenient than the smaller sizes
other ships can carry. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:27:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations

In mail you write:

> Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> So have the tanker refilling the station drop off new tanks instead of
>> fill up old ones. The tonnage will (due to the level of abstraction) be
>> the same. <G>
>
> Those "disposable tanks" are only disposed of if someone activates
> the explosive bolts. It is perfectly possible to perform a successful
> jump with one attached.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Certainly. I was just responding to Keven's assertion that cheapie fuel
> tanks parked by a small fuel station would wear out over time.

Heck, for a "deep space" refueling point like this, the "tanks" need be
nothing more than *big* plastic balloons. You're so far from a star
that you don't *need* to insulate them much. Likewise, space debris
will be pretty thin and *generally* slow moving. The faster stuff is
better dealt with (for the tanks) by keeping them relatively flimsy,
and just monitoring for punrures. You then patch tanks that get
punctured. 

This is also an *advantage* if you are attacked. It makes it *real*
easy to threaten to destroy the fuel supply. And with that gone, most
of the reason for attacking is gone. 

BTW, I don't *think* anyone would be this crazy, but setting of a nuke
in the middle of a huge tank of LH2 *would* cause some of the hydrogen
to fuse. Enough to make a *big* increase in yield, even though you'd be
wasting most of it. 

For the *truly* crazy, you place a series of synchronized nukes around
the tank, and cause a much greater portion of it to fuse from the
implosion pressures and temp. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:52:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations (was travellernomics)

In mail you write:

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> A 5KT station is at *least* 500 MCr just for the *hull*.  Per HG, if it's a 
> sphere, the hull price goes down to 350MCr.  
>
> <snip thorough and accurate accounting of construction costs>
>
> You're already up to almost 750 MCr and you haven't even 
> added life support costs.  These are *throwaway* stations?????????  We're 
> looking at a budget of about a *billion*, something a *government* would 
> have problems justifying, let alone protecting.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> What if the fueling station is a small module, say 400dtns, floating on
> station with some big cheap fuel tanks?
>
> The computer minimums (in HG) are an abstraction for military sensor
> arrays IMO - a fueling station might want military-grade sensors if
> it's supposed to double as an observation station, but they should be
> optional - and certainly shouldn't be priced based on the displacement
> of the fuel tanks.
>
> Should a fuel station's power plant need to be big enough to provide
> Power-1 to the fuel tanks? How much powered maintenance does LHyd
> need in interstellar space? I don't know the answer to this question.

None. As pointed out elsewhere, a tank will radiate away heat until it
is in thermal equilibrium with it's surroundings. In interstellar
space, this is the 3 K cosmic background. 

Since hydrogen liquefies at 20.5 K, and freezes at 13 K, you can
practically do without tanks except for enough tankage to handle
refueling the max number of "in a hurry" ships you expect to handle.
You can store the reserves as hydrogen ice. Evaporation losses will be
low at these temps. And the gravel will just crater the ice balls. 

Just keep adding hydrogen to the iceball(s) and eventually you'll have
a small asteroid made of hydrogen ice.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:03:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:
>
> Does anyone actually at any point find a use for low-tech weapons? I don't
> mean swords, or a particular "novelty" item (such as a crossbow for stealthy
> assassins).
>
> With the wide variety of tech-levels, it seems to make sense to put in
> muskets and the like, but is there a real need for them? I can imagine some
> uses that I may incorporate in the future:
>
> A world in which the only allowable weapons are ammo-light repeaters (such
> as revolvers). The focus for shooters on the planet is a high degree of
> accuracy and very careful shooting. In fact, in a G:T game a shootout might
> be resolved with the Old West rules from Compendium II.
>
> A world in which the only legal weapons are matchlock dueling pistols. The
> weapons are amazingly expensive to maintain, and not terribly effective.
> Disputes are often settled by duelling.
>
> The real important question is who would ever use archaic weapons in the
> Third Imperium? Can anyone think of some possible reasons that they'd be
> used?

Well, as you noted, tech levels *do* vary. Folks may use higher tech
weapons, but they can't *rely* on a weapon that can't be repaired or
re-supplied locally.

> Religious? I heard once that the Catholic Church had a dislike for black
> powder weapons (they thought the bullets were guided by devils). I also
> heard  that they had some distaste for rifled guns when they came along,
> since it was said that the noise of a ricochet was actually the voice of a
> demon.

Heck, they ruled that the crossbow could only be used against the infidel.

> Traditional? Maybe archaic weapons have a very specific ceremonial use. They
> are expensive, beautiful and hand-crafted. Training is allowed only to
> upper-classes, or specific classes. Maybe warriors are still trained in
> their use much like Imperial Marines are trained with sabres? They serve
> some ceremonial purposes?

Actually, it can be argued that blade weapons are useful in combat
aboard ship. There are areas where neither side *dares* risk a stray
shot hitting something vital. And a sword will damage a vac suit quite
nicely. In battle dress, a battle-ax type weapon might be better.

In free fall, again, edged weapons may have advantages. You don't have
the recoil kicking you all over the place, tough you still need to be
braced on *something* to swing at someone. Thrusts out to work ok,
though it'll be hard to do much damage if both attacker & defender are
floating free.

Zero-g fencing will be quite a sight to behold. :-)

> It's just a question, 'cause there are plenty of archaic weapons in
> different versions of Traveller. While it is easy to imagine their use in a
> milieu such as TNE, I'm trying to imagine some more "cultural quirks." These
> might really help in CT games, since some of the skills can be really
> bizarre. "What, I've got skills in energy weapons and archaic firearms?
> How'd that happen?"

Well, there's alway the equivalent of the SCA (Society for Creative
Anachronism). We do a lot of fighting with broadswords. 

In one of the Honor Harrington books, we discover that she learned to
shoot a 45 pistol from an uncle in the SCA (which by that time had
moved the "cutoff" data from 1600 to sometime after the 20th century).
This comes as a rude shock to some would be assassins. And later, it
proves fatal to a couple of duellists.

Another thought. I've always been fond of the idea from some of
Norton's books (Star Guard, for example) and some of Pournelles ("King
David's Spaceship). 

In these, trade with a world is restricted by tech level. Sort of like
a *much* weaker version of the prime directive. This means that
mercenary units (in "Star Guard") specialize in various TLs of warfare.
Likewise, traders need to learn weapons that are acceptable to the TL
restrictions if they want to take them on world. 

This is *definitely* not the canon Imperium, but I think it works
better in some ways. For example, it explains the TL variances a lot
better. Stuff will still leak (in "King David's Spaceship" some folks
are put on trial for introducing the horse collar, but get away with
introducing some major improvements in sailing technology), but the
spread will be slower. 

It also makes players far more interested in lower tech weapons. A guy
with blade combat skill can use it almost anywhere. A guy with laser
pistol isn't going to be able to use it on a lot of worlds.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:39:25 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #526

At 22:44 29/04/1999 EDT, SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 99-04-29 22:38:01 EDT, you write:
>
><< What kind of starport is "G"??? >>
>
>Gee, that's the starport...

LOL

IIRC it means it's a spaceport and cannot build starships
(but neither can the equivalent type B starport)
I thought those codes were used for secondary installations
in the system, not the mainworld.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:59:05 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani expansion

               it's 876..something...I don't have the Spin M books for GT or 
CT at work :)
               it's the one down in the "left" hand corner near Raweh(sp)?

               thanks for the info...

               mike


               
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:06:27 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: was Drop Tanks, now Do jump drives create power

At 14:05 30/04/1999 +1200, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
>
>>You'd also have to handwave why I cannot have lots of small crystals
>>and discharge one at a time instead of all at once.
>
>No, you don't. There is nothing to prevent you doing that if you wish.
>
>But that isn't using your _jump_ capacitors to power something. That's using
>a specialy constructed smaller capacity capacitor. If you reduce the size of
>the capacitor to the level at which you can regulate the current flow, turn
>it on and off, etc, then you have limited yourself to what conventional
>power plants can do anyway, and there is no "super-weapon" problem, and no
>real gain in doing it either.
>
The energy densities in the capacitor are way higher than the normal
weapon accumulators, so it should mean smaller and lighter weapon
systems. I guess I need to do some sums before I can be certain.

>>On the Tech Level issue, I can accept that they are TL16
>>(or experimental TL15 in the same way as black globes).
>>Alternatively, I could accept that they are TL9.
>>(As *ALL* the ship design rules imply.)
>>What I find difficult to accept is that they are TL9 but not found
>>until someone does TL16 research.
>
>I think you misunderstand the situation. The construction of a drop tank is
>TL8-9. It's only a tank with some quick release couplings and explosive
>bolts, after all.  The construction of the high energy  _capacitors_ which
>let you _use_ drop tanks is TL16.
>
>The reference in JTAS-2 made it abundantly clear that it was easy to
>construct drop -tanks, which is why they were being constructed locally. but
>that only Core could construct the capacittors. Constructing the drop-tanks
>just meant that the Spinward main could be serviced by drop-tank ships
>coming from the Core.

But the Gazelle is TL14.
None of the design rules says that drop tanks require TL16 drives.
All we have is one TNS, which is not supported by the design rules.

IMTU drop tanks might be possible at TL16, but since it is set in M0,
it does not matter. If they do work, I'd probably go with the used
during jump initiation.

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 05:19:24 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Products (Missions of State)

Has Anyone seen this book? I haven't ever seen it at my FN game 
store...Maybe it's worth waiting for GT Espionage(sp) and 
Diplomacy............continuing in this vein.....when I wasn't a member of 
the TML I got First Survey..I know it's been much maligned...was there ever 
an errata made by anyone...I haven't seen it on the Imperium games web 
page...I don't own Atlas of the Imperium so it's my only resource for most 
of the sectors...
TIA....
great weekend to all!

Mike


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 99 05:47:06 +0100
From: Nikki Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #514

Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com> wrote:
>Kafer Dawn is not a Traveller product in any form or fashion.  It is for 
>the Traveller 2300/2300AD game system.

I stand corrected.  I did indeed place this product under the wrong 
heading.

Nikki
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:37:32 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Uses for "Low-tech" Weapons 

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Well, there's alway the equivalent of the SCA (Society for Creative
> Anachronism). We do a lot of fighting with broadswords.
> 
> In one of the Honor Harrington books, we discover that she learned to
> shoot a 45 pistol from an uncle in the SCA (which by that time had
> moved the "cutoff" data from 1600 to sometime after the 20th century).
> This comes as a rude shock to some would be assassins. And later, it
> proves fatal to a couple of duellists.

I would also look at Heinlein's _Beyond This Horizon_, in which the
protagonist, Hamilton Felix, has an M1911A1 custom-made for him.  (In
his society, all gentlemen are assumed to be armed [usually with some
variation on a beam laser pistol], unless they are wearing "peace
brassards."  Brassarded men are generally assumed to be cowards. 
Duelling is openly accepted.)  Hamilton Felix discovers, quite
inadvertently, that the effects of shooting someone with a .45 cal
pistol (the noise, the blood, etc.) have quite a psychological impact on
would-be challengers, when compared to burning someone down neatly and
quietly with a beam weapon.

> 
> Another thought. I've always been fond of the idea from some of
> Norton's books (Star Guard, for example) and some of Pournelles ("King
> David's Spaceship).
> 
> In these, trade with a world is restricted by tech level. Sort of like
> a *much* weaker version of the prime directive. This means that
> mercenary units (in "Star Guard") specialize in various TLs of warfare.
> Likewise, traders need to learn weapons that are acceptable to the TL
> restrictions if they want to take them on world.
> 
> This is *definitely* not the canon Imperium, but I think it works
> better in some ways. For example, it explains the TL variances a lot
> better. Stuff will still leak (in "King David's Spaceship" some folks
> are put on trial for introducing the horse collar, but get away with
> introducing some major improvements in sailing technology), but the
> spread will be slower.
> 
> It also makes players far more interested in lower tech weapons. A guy
> with blade combat skill can use it almost anywhere. A guy with laser
> pistol isn't going to be able to use it on a lot of worlds.
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:02:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fuel Stations

Keven Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> If pressure is a problem, fill 'em with water - the scout and military
> ships will have fuel treatment plants aboard.

You won't get enough hydrogen that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sure you will. Just have more tanks.

Or, as Leonard pointed out, just have the tanker vent the stuff as ice
and build your own snowball asteroid.

This is doable, and canonical. It's not as cheap as dipping from a gas
giant, but it shouldn't be prohibitively expensive.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:07:30 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: FW: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
And doen't every Scout modify his hydroponics unit to grow marijuana ?
Or create a still ?

Our current Alternity game has two alcoholic characters in it, and don't
talk about the Cult of Ecstacy mages.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Our gaming group played Twilight 2000 for a while. We thought it
interesting that the game rules included the most thorough treatment
of stills we'd ever seen in an RPG.

Granted, you were supposed to use them to make alcohol fuel...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:19:10 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

At 05:47 PM 4/29/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 05:26 PM 4/29/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>The CT/MT/Striker Grav Tank model seems to have big honking piles of armor
>>and weapons playing hide and seek on a large scale battlefield, hoping not
>>to stumble over the stealthy infantry with their short range but capable
>>weapons.  I think that a rampart type fighter would need to keep to cover
>>in order to avoid getting zapped by, at worst, the second grav tank it
>>encounters.
>>
>>My opinion is that the Rampart type would be employed to zap the infantry,
>>not the grav tanks.  VS infantry it would require a lot of smaller seeking
>>missiles, not anti-ship missiles.  Note that the rampart doesn't really
>>want to be in direct view of the Infantry either, but probably it would
>>take a lucky infantryman to mission kill the fighter (destroying it is
>>almost out of the question).
>
>Dunno about older systems, but under GT, the TL12 Rampart's Laser can never
>penetrate most of a MBTs armor (Max damage: 5d100(2)=3000(2), so it can
>punch through at most 6000 pts of DR, TL12 tank has DR 25,000 front, 10,000
>body and turret, 5,000 cupola).  The only place it has a chance at is the
>cupola.  OTOH, the Tank's main gun has a max range of only 50 miles in an
>atmosphere, so it can probably never hit the Rampart, either...
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>

Actually it almost garrenties a hit by the tank unless the rampart is firing
from orbit directly down.  The curvature of the earth and ground
iregularities will limit LOS to about 35 miles under good curcumstances if
both tank and rampart are in the atmosphere.  I just came across this
information is a naval handbook while waiting for her to get off work.
She's a librarian so I have lots of choice in things to read while I wait.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:34:23 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities

>Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:01:05 -0400
>From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
>Subject: Shipboard recreation facilities was Re: General Hooker and his
friends
>
>>Library (gee for a crew of 5000 you'd think they'd have decent
>>library right?  It SUCKED!!!  The area with books was about 15x15'  I've a
>>better selection, and probably more books!  Needless to say, I had a locker
>>full of books.)
>
>Just goes to show how things kind differ from ship to ship. John F. Kennedy
>(The last conventionally powered carrier) has a huge library, with probably
>thousands of books. Maybe 1000 sqft.

That's a pretty decent size for the population of an aircraft carrier.
I wonder if they actually had a librarian to run the place? I've always
had a fondness for the Navy, and I *am* a librarian in real life... 
(Then again, it would never work for me: I'm not a US citizen, I'm too 
old to enlist, and without my glasses/contacts I'm blind as a post...)

:)

ObTrav: given the data-storage capabilities of the high TLs in Traveller,
a capital Navy ship should have stored the equivalent of a branch of a 
big-city public library combined with a Blockbuster Video outlet...
even a small scout/courier would have a decent selection of films,
music, and reading material to keep the crew amused during a Jump.



- -- g 
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:42:02 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Two questions

>>Admiral Hutara IIRC.  In the "real" universe, he declares for Dulinor
>>following his return for Capital and brings the Ilelish fleet w/ him.  In
>G:T
>>he got "retired" after someone played around w/ his head, apparently.
>>Ilelish should be on the verge of exploding anyways, though it'll be very
>>interesting to see what developments occur in G:T.
>
>I didn't get the play around with his head part. I just figured that
>Dulinor's plot was compromised.  INI or S3 took out Dulinor and his brother
>who was a co-conspirator was "retired" in recognition of his long Imperial
>service and because some of his subordinates (who might or might not have
>been in on it) wouldn't stand for his just disappearing or having his ship
>blow up. IN officers are just completely unreasonable about such things.

Has it been established in the G:T timeline that Dulinor's gig was blown
up by INI or S3? Or is that still conjecture? My recently-started campaign
in G:T is using the G:T timeline, except I started in 1115... and the 
characters will be at Capital on the day Dulinor arrives, and get involved
in the investigation of what happened. And I know what happened (will
happen?) IMTU... 


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #536
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 537



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: do jump drives create power?
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Two questions
Re: The Imperium as a planetary owner
Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 
Re: low tech melee weapons
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: Two questions
Re: Discarding Sabot
Re: Goodbye for now...
Re: A-10 versus MBT? 
Re: Connection between Norris and Strephon
Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 
Re: Sneaky (stolen) scenarios (was Re: RPG Paranoia)
Black Globes
Re: T4 Products (Missions of State)
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Golf (with an Ob Trav)
Clipper Deckplans
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
For the Grognards Among Us....
Traveller World Map -> Globe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:49:26 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: do jump drives create power?

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
If half a 3 dton jump drive is capacitors that can contain 3*10^21 joules,
then we should be able to build a much smaller capacitor that will still
hold quantities of energy that are quite reasonable by Ditzie's standards.

If the other half of the 3 dton jump drive turns 20 dtons of LHyd into that
much power, then again we should be able to scale that down to some extent.
>>>>>>>>>>>
The reduction in scale may reduce the performance in a non-linear
fashion. Where a 3dTn jump drive's capacitors can move gigajoules
of energy, a 1dTn driv's capacitor block may only be able to move kilojoules
or less.

There may even be thresholds. A Zuchai crystal lattice of size Y will
transfer X amount of energy with near-100% efficiency, but a crystal
lattice of size Y/2 will transfer X/2 amount of energy with near-0%
efficiency. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:33:28 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

At 13:19 30/04/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>At 05:47 PM 4/29/99 -0400, Juliean Galak wrote:
<snip>
>>...OTOH, the Tank's main gun has a max range of only 50 miles in an
>>atmosphere, so it can probably never hit the Rampart, either...
>
>Actually it almost garrenties a hit by the tank unless the rampart is
>firing from orbit directly down.  The curvature of the earth and ground
>iregularities will limit LOS to about 35 miles under good curcumstances if
>both tank and rampart are in the atmosphere.  I just came across this
>information is a naval handbook while waiting for her to get off work.
>She's a librarian so I have lots of choice in things to read while I wait.

Over something flat, like the sea, you probably wouldn't even get 35 miles
if both were on the ground - Navy ships are quite a bit taller than grav
tanks.

As the altitude of the Rampart increases, it can see and be seen from
further away. At 30,000ft its probably over 100 miles.
Of course, it would be much easier for the vehicle on the ground to spot
the one in the air (all other things being equal) and I think that there
is general agreement that piloting a Rampart at 30,000ft over a hostile
battlefield isn't a long term career move.

But your principle is correct - the Rampart is either dead or in orbit.

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:42:33 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

>>Dunno about older systems, but under GT, the TL12 Rampart's Laser can never
>>penetrate most of a MBTs armor (Max damage: 5d100(2)=3000(2), so it can
>>punch through at most 6000 pts of DR, TL12 tank has DR 25,000 front, 10,000
>>body and turret, 5,000 cupola).  The only place it has a chance at is the
>>cupola.  OTOH, the Tank's main gun has a max range of only 50 miles in an
>>atmosphere, so it can probably never hit the Rampart, either...
>>
>>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>>
>
>Actually it almost garrenties a hit by the tank unless the rampart is firing
>from orbit directly down.  The curvature of the earth and ground
>iregularities will limit LOS to about 35 miles under good curcumstances if
>both tank and rampart are in the atmosphere.  I just came across this
>information is a naval handbook while waiting for her to get off work.
>She's a librarian so I have lots of choice in things to read while I wait.
>
>Charles L.

remember, though, the cupola is the most exposed portion of the tank to the rampart (its on top) and is the best place for a mission kill (easier to disable the crew than a system). In Real Life infantry anti-tank rockets and the light weapons carried by many smaller vehicles are capable of a mission kill against a tank only at specific places.
(In the Persian Gulf an Iraqi tank (T-72) surprised an American tank (M1A1 Abrams) and nailed it on the front glacis with HEAP at about 120 meters range; it glanced off! The Abrams responded with APDSFSDU; instant kill. The moral? Pick your target.)


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:47:55 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

Ian Whitchurch writes:

>After all, there is a BatRon of Tigresses per fleet, and an average of a
>fleet per subsector, right ?

No, it's more like a BatRon of Tigresses per sector. Your main point is
correct, however, as there are a number of BatRons (just not Tigresses)
per fleet and TWO fleets per sector (though the second fleet, the
colonial one varies a lot in size).
  

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 02:48:37 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Two questions

Date sent:      	Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:42:02 -0600
From:           	cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>

>Has it been established in the G:T timeline that Dulinor's gig was blown
>up by INI or S3? Or is that still conjecture? My recently-started campaign
>in G:T is using the G:T timeline, except I started in 1115... and the 
>characters will be at Capital on the day Dulinor arrives, and get involved
>in the investigation of what happened. And I know what happened (will
>happen?) IMTU... 

It's not even been established that Dulinor is dead in the GT timeline. Also the 
mess round with his brothers head is not supported by anything substantial. It's 
just a common supposition of many people.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:55:42 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The Imperium as a planetary owner

Glenn M. Goffin writes:

>The bottom line is that the phrase "controlling the 'space _between_
>worlds'" is just shorthand for a more complex concept.

I agree. Here is my take on the knotty question of Imperial authority versus
planetary autonomy:
 
In theory the structure of the Imperium is very simple: Each star system
constitutes a sovereignty governed in any way its inhabitants see fit. As
members of the Imperium these sovereignties have surrendered certain of
their rights to the Emperor; they agree to let him collect and administer
a certain percentage of their annual production, to obey a number of basic
laws (the Imperial High Laws), to let him tax certain activities, and to
leave foreign relations with non-Imperial states to him. The Emperor turns
over these rights to his vassals in return for fealthy and these vassals in
turn parcel them out to lesser vassals. Each star system thus have two
associated authorities: its own government administering system affairs and
an Imperial noble administering Imperial affairs.
        That's the theory. Human nature (and most alien natures too) being
what it is, it is no surprise that in practice exceptions abound. Indeed, it
could be said that the exceptions are the norm.
        MULTI-SYSTEM SOVEREIGNTIES: The Imperium frown on multi-system
sovereignties, but quite a number of these exist. In the early days of the
Imperium many pocket empires joined it as a unit. Whenever possible the
Imperium tries to break these up eventually, but a number still exists even
today. On occasion the Imperium has even been obliged to form some of its
own to meet exceptional political problems; the largest and most famous
examples are the Antarean and Solomani Autonomous regions. A more frequent
source of multi-system sovereignties are the planting of colonies by member
systems. Imperial policy favors the granting of full membership to colony
worlds that have grown big enough to make it on their own (which is why some
colonies are deliberately kept much smaller than optimum by their mother
worlds), but if a former colony prefers union with their mother world there
is not much the Imperium can do about it. Mega-corporations and the largest
sector-wide companies constitutes another kind of multi-system sovereignty.
        IMPERIAL WORLD LEADERS: The principle of having two different kinds
of leaders, system leaders and Imperial nobles, frequently run afoul of the
pride and ambition of powerful world leaders, especially if they are
hereditary rulers. It often becomes a political necessity to appoint them
Imperial nobles. Thus the Matriarch of Mora is both the head of the Moran
government and the Duchess of Mora Subsector. The reverse can also happen.
An unscrupulous Imperial noble assigned to a young, developing world is in a
very good position to acquire title to vast tracks of land. In some cases he
can end up owning, or at least running, the whole world.
	IMPERIALLY OWNED WORLDS: Over the years the Imperium have acquired
outright ownership of a lot of real estate including a number of whole
worlds. When that is the case, the noble assigned to it controls both its
internal and its Imperial affairs.
        

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:04:42 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

At 01:58 AM 4/30/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Of course I know who he is... I own all of Thompson's books, and almost
>every Doonesbury...   My favorite character of all time was ripped straight
>out of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
>
>Ob Traveller:  Who has PCs that use drugs?  I mean, aside from the medical
>and Psi-stuff?  Or all we all playing straight-arrow boy scouts?
>
>Damien Fox
>phocks@goodnet.com
>

I've run several Gurps games with charaters with 'addiction' as a
disadvantage.  One I remember was a generally good ex military character
that turned real nasty without his stuff (combat adder drug).

One of the funniest was a smoking addict.  He played the part very well.  He
kept trap of the time sence his last smoke real closely add acted like he
had gone without.  The player had recently quit smoking himself and was in
effect poking fun at himself.

Also a 'Mary Jane' smoker who could really play up 'munchies'!  

Another funny one was a conpulsive partier.  The character was female and
had to sneek out of more that one strange situation the morning
after...though after a week or two in one location she had some good contacts...

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:35:23 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: low tech melee weapons

 
>You've fallen victim to a myth. Medieval armor was designed to restrict
>mobility as little as possible. And it generaly does a *great* job.
>Also, the weight is generally *less* than a typical infantry combat
>load and *much* better distributed. 
>
>I can speak with some authority, having *worn* armor.
>
>The biggest drawback is that it gets *hot* in there.
 True and misleading. I carried a combat load of about 85 lbs (about 39 kilos) in the Persian Gulf, about 150 with my rucksack (about 69 kilos) - a lot more than my SCA plate armor (about 50 lbs. well distributed) (Granted, I carried a grenade launcher and ammo, so my weights were high....).
 OTOH, powered Battle Dress is going to still be a major improvement for the infantryman. You're 'immune' to most small arms fire and small calibre shrapnel effects, you can ignore NBC attacks, you have constant, secure, silent comms with your comrades, you can breathe underwater for short periods, see in the dark, etc. Best of all, you can carry more/heavier weapons and ammo *without getting tired* from the weight. That is huge. Add in grav belts for high-speed mobility and you have a fast, lethal force that can hide rpetty well.

 I've written up an 'H-Hour' timeline for planetary assault by drop troops. An early stage of 'drop prep' is to insert powered BD special forces troops by personal reentry kit; these troops then proceed, under cover, to key strategic sites. As the drop ships move into orbit, you have 2-man teams attack ky places and sow panic - imagine 2 men flying into the government center, gauss guns sweeping through the crowds as the head for the main chambers, where they start firing RAM grenades and placing explosives. At the same time, key communications, transport, and power centers are being hit the same way. Then you find out you have a full regiment of guys like that arriving, with more support following....
 Enough to make you join the Imperium.


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:57:04 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

At 10:36 PM 4/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>(or turn it around so it unrolls 
>over the top instead of off the bottom).

Heretic!  That's the proper way to mount toilet paper!  Repent!  Repent! :)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:01:04 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Two questions

- ----------
> From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Two questions
> Date: 26. huhtikuuta 1999 2:05
> 
> Hi everyone.
> 
> I've been writing a spreadsheet to convert Traveller worlds to GT format,
> and noticed the 'Climate' stat in GT.  Is it a thing from Gurps: Space? 
> How is it generated?  Is there a plausible way to fake it from Traveller
> stats?
> 
In G:Space it's a semi-randomly generated thing.
One could use the "Base Mean Surface Temperature" tables from TNE: World
tamers handbook to get the 30 degrees avg temperature that is equivalent to
G:Space avg temp and climate type. This may require the generaion of some
extra parameters (like Orbital distane or eccentricity) if they are not
already known.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:08:05 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Discarding Sabot

Block 1 - they were just discussing the feasibility of pneumatic drives and
multi-speed firing when I unwisely decided that recruiting would be better
for my family life than the fleet.  (It wasn't, but it did kill the
enjoyment I had in the Navy, and made it easy to get out - which *was*
better for my family life!  ;)

douglas

obtrav - there is no real way to simulate technological improvements or
upgrade systems in the current incarnations of traveller.  It is something
I've tried to add IMTU - and would be a good thing for T5.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Sam D. Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: Discarding Sabot


> At 12:00 PM 4/29/99 , you wrote:
>
> >The sabot is designed to fall away from the sub-caliber penetrator (the
> >sabot is actually split into four pieces, and held in place at the crimp
> >where the cartridge is secured to the penetrator), which is why it is
called
> >discarding sabot.
>
> >douglas,
>
> When CIWS was first introduced to the Fleet, an interesting change had to
done the sabots for CIWS, ie the black colored sabots were extremely hard to
find as FOD on carrier's flight deck, solution the carrier mounted CIWS
fired a bright orange colored sabot.
>
> How far did they get in the Mods for CIWS while you were in? I had only
Mod 1's.
>
>
>
> Sinbad Sam
> "Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
> AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
> Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
> sinbad@ignore.hex.net
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:41:40 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Goodbye for now...

In a message dated 4/30/99 3:14:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
cjbrain@bigpond.com writes:

<< My work is taking me out of Australia for a while, so I am unsubscribing
 from this group and moving on. I will miss the topics and the humor that has
 made this list as good as it is. After three years of reading this list and
 making the occasional comment, or asking a few dozen questions, I will
 really miss this daily routine. Thanks for everything.
 
  >>
resubscribe when you finish settling in wherever you go...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:10:05 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT? 

> >The Rampart's laser in BL (and Striker II evaluation) can shred the armor 
on
> >any Imperial AFV except the front on the Heavy Grav Tank IIRC.  It does 
have
> >USL grapples for space missiles.  Why waste em on grav vehicles when the
> >laser has unlimited shots and is just as effective?
> 
> Missiles on small vessels were not "really" allowed by the rules until late
> in the T:TNE era.  For the Rampart to have missiles in MT (or CT) either
> the rules must be "interpreted" or the COACC rules used (in MT).

Yeah.  Exactly.  MT already has (broken IMO) provisions for it, but it's part 
of CTs level of abstraction that makes me play TNE.  :-)

> The problem with a laser (especially the fixed forward mount of the
> Rampart) is that if you can shoot him, he can shoot you.

Not if he zaps him from orbit.  And the rampart is a helluva lot faster than 
a grav tank (even a Trepida).  And the grav tank is probably armed w/ a high 
energy weapon.  It's the ol classic game of shoot while in your optimum 
range, but outside the enemy's.

> Of course, the problem with missiles (smaller ones anyway) is that if you
> can see it, you can generally shoot it down in the era of point defense
> lasers.

Exactly.  That's why I think the Rampart will be using it's laser.  I'm not 
sure bout Striker, but in Striker II the Rampart is presented as having a 
ground support role.  Such a platform isn't desired as a dedicated 
anti-infantry device.  It's ill suited for it, though should be relatively 
immune to anything that infantry might wield (save possibly tac missiles).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:10:06 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Connection between Norris and Strephon

> >> Norris and Strephon both have the same middle name: Aledon. Hmm...
> 
> >Isn't it Aella?
> 
> Actually, I think that Strephon is Strephon Aledon Alkhalikoi,
> and Norris is Norris Aella Aledon.  And ISTR that there _is_ a
> family connection there, somewhere.

It's Aella.  I'm not sure on the direct family relationship (at least in 
anything outside of something by DGP or possibly in the SMC, etc), but RSB 
says Arbellatra apointed the first Aledon as Duke of Regina the day after her 
coronation.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:10:03 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 

> One possibility is to move the Marine in Low Berths if they're not expecting
> to do anything.

They also don't have to be fed, though I think FFS2 is kinda ridiculous in 
its food rules (gimme fauxflesh vats!).

IMO, it'd be much better to have the good bulk of your trained assault forces 
in low berth up to a couple days before the final precipitation.  Give some 
time to stretch their legs and prepare their equipment, though. ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:44:52 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sneaky (stolen) scenarios (was Re: RPG Paranoia)

In a message dated 4/30/99 4:07:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< Can you *imagine* the sort of contact offers a merc unit would get
 after word of something like this got around? <eg> >>

Bet Lucan would love them...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:50:47 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Black Globes

I'm trying to find out more about Black Globes.  I understand you can
either turn them on all the way, or flicker them (the flicker rate depends
on TL, as per FF&S2).  I've looked in both T4/FFS and MT, and still have
some questions:

A 20% flicker rate: is it 20% on or 20% off?  

How fast does it flicker: several times a second, a minute, an hour?
technically, if it's on for 20 hours and then off for 80, that's still a
20% flicker..

How fast can it be turned on/off.  i.e., can you turn it on just as a
missile is about to impact and them immediately turn it off again?

I'm mostly looking for canon sources, please cite where your info is from
(although conjecture is welcome too)

Thanks alot,



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:57:05 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 Products (Missions of State)

At 05:19 AM 4/30/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Has Anyone seen this book? I haven't ever seen it at my FN game 
>store...Maybe it's worth waiting for GT Espionage(sp) and 
>Diplomacy............continuing in this vein.....when I wasn't a member of 
>the TML I got First Survey..I know it's been much maligned...was there ever 
>an errata made by anyone...I haven't seen it on the Imperium games web 
>page...I don't own Atlas of the Imperium so it's my only resource for most 
>of the sectors...
>TIA....
>great weekend to all!

Well, 1st off, this book has only adventures, it's not really a sourcebook.
 I've got this book, and rather like some of the adventures in it.  OTOH,
some are terrible...  It's probably worth getting if you want ready made
aventures, but that's about it.  Also, most of the adventures rely on being
M0, and are not readily adaptable (IMHO)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:00:42 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

At 01:19 PM 4/30/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Actually it almost garrenties a hit by the tank unless the rampart is firing
>from orbit directly down.  The curvature of the earth and ground
>iregularities will limit LOS to about 35 miles under good curcumstances if
>both tank and rampart are in the atmosphere.  I just came across this
>information is a naval handbook while waiting for her to get off work.
>She's a librarian so I have lots of choice in things to read while I wait.

If the rampart engages the tank, true.  What I meant was that the Rampart
need never come into range of the tank since it's LOS weapons are nearly
useless here, anyway...  With standoff weapons OTOH, the two can hurt
eachother, if they can overwhelm the point defense enough.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:03:11 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Golf (with an Ob Trav)

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> (2)  X-Files variant:  Golf is a Vilani game.  A Vilani ship crashed off
> the Orkney Islands in Pictish times.  The survivors were able to salvage
> their golf clubs and manual.  After founding the Pictish culture and
> making the bagpipe a more efficient weapon, they settled down to relax
> and taught the Scots how to play golf.

ROFLMAO!

That settles it.  I'm going to revise the chargen tables to include
Golf with 'elite' careers, especially Noble.  They need something
to go with Fencing and Equestrian.

And Clubs, will now be a mustering out benefit.

Can anyone design a robot caddy with built-in shade and wetbar?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:01:01 +0000
From: "Lee Cooke" <ljrcooke@stayfree.co.uk>
Subject: Clipper Deckplans

Hi All

Could somone tell me of a website where i can get Deckplans for a 
RC Clipper from TNE.

Thanks
Lee
ljrcooke@stayfree.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:01:56 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

In a message dated 4/30/99 7:46:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
hyperc@mailcity.com writes:

<< n the Persian Gulf an Iraqi tank (T-72) surprised an American tank (M1A1 
Abrams) and nailed it on the front glacis with HEAP at about 120 meters 
range; it glanced off! The Abrams responded with APDSFSDU; instant kill. The 
moral? Pick your target.) >>

thank G-D the T-72 didn't have a sabot up the spout...120 METERS! UGH! 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:09:54 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: For the Grognards Among Us....

Just a reminder:

Today is Camerone Day.

ObTrav:  IMTU, units of Solomani origin, both in the Solomani
Confederation and in the 3I, celebrate holidays such as St. George's Day
or Camerone Day.  Which days they celebrate depend on the roots of the
unit in question (a unit that holds itself descended from the French
Foreign Legion would celebrate Camerone Day, another unit, of American
lineage, would instead commemerate Memorial Day, etc.).

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:14:03 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Traveller World Map -> Globe

Les_Howie@keane.com writes:
> Has anyone out there looked at the math of projecting the 
> standard traveller map (essentially a Fuller globe) on to a 
> sphere (and vice-versa)?  Its been a while since I did any 
> spherical trig or map projections, so any tips or pointers 
> to references would be appreciated.

Without resorting to too much math, you can sort of fake it.

The quick and dirty solution is to take the central (continuous) 
band of triangles on the Traveller map and calling that 30
degrees north latitude to 30 degrees south. Each polar 
section is 360/5 or 72 degrees of longitude; the north polar 
and south polar divisions are offset by 36 degrees from one 
another. Draw lines on the globe corresponding to those
angles, and interpolate the stuff in between.

Each of the polar equilateral triangles on the original map 
becomes an isoceles triangle with (according to some quick 
excel work that I won't duplicate here) lengths of 1, 1, and 
1.018074 (i.e. the latitude line is nearly 2% too long). 

If you don't care about the nice round latitudes, set the 
continuous-band angle to N/S 26.56 (actually arccos( squareroot 
(20) / 5) degrees latitude, and *don't* ask me how I figured
that out); this makes the triangles essentially equilateral.

For most purposes, the icosahedron is a good approximation 
to a sphere, as you found by taping it together. :) 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #537
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 538



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fuel Stations
Goodbye for now...
Re: Black Globes
Re: The Imperium as a planetary owner
re: do jump drives create power?
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe
Today is Camerone Day
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Imperial Starports
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Silly adventure idea
Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:30:18 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, April 30, 1999 4:30 AM
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations



>
>Heck, for a "deep space" refueling point like this, the "tanks" need be
>nothing more than *big* plastic balloons. You're so far from a star
>that you don't *need* to insulate them much. Likewise, space debris
>will be pretty thin and *generally* slow moving. The faster stuff is
>better dealt with (for the tanks) by keeping them relatively flimsy,
>and just monitoring for punrures. You then patch tanks that get
>punctured.
>

Actually, most of the stuff in interstellar space will be moving at least
several km/sec.  Anything that's escaped from a solar system will be moving
MUCH faster, and no one really knows how big it will be.

>
>BTW, I don't *think* anyone would be this crazy, but setting of a nuke
>in the middle of a huge tank of LH2 *would* cause some of the hydrogen
>to fuse. Enough to make a *big* increase in yield, even though you'd be
>wasting most of it.

What do you mean by "big"? Also, IIRC, H-->He fusion requires pressure as
well as high-velocity particles.  Without containment, it would be my guess
that little energy benefit would result, as the EMR front would be
dispersing the H faster than optimal for fusion.

Another note, several people have mentioned that hydrogen snowballs would be
easy to keep in intersteller space.  Since apperently most nebulae consist
of GASEOUS H, this supposition might not be true.  At the very least, shade
from cosmic rays would be necessary, and if my astrophysics are correct,
individual photons striking the snowball would impart enough energy to casue
individual molecules to sublimate- thus eventually causing the whole thing
to disappear.  I am not sure, however, how long this would take.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:16:24 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Goodbye for now...

> From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Goodbye for now...
> 
> My work is taking me out of Australia for a while, so I am unsubscribing
> from this group and moving on. I will miss the topics and the humor that

Don't they have the Internet in Australia?  I hope you can get in touch
with the Australian TML members.  I've seen a few ".au" suffixes on the
list.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:30:56 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Black Globes

Juliean Galak writes:
> I'm trying to find out more about Black Globes.  I understand you can
> either turn them on all the way, or flicker them (the flicker rate depends
> on TL, as per FF&S2).  I've looked in both T4/FFS and MT, and still have
> some questions:
> 
> A 20% flicker rate: is it 20% on or 20% off?  
>
> How fast does it flicker: several times a second, a minute, an hour?
> technically, if it's on for 20 hours and then off for 80, that's still a
> 20% flicker..

IIRC, per High Guard 2nd Edition, 20% flicker is 20% on-time, 
80% off; no explanation is given for why 100% on is always 
achievable (incidentally, the flicker rate depends on 
model number in HG2, not directly on TL). 

IIRC, the flicker rate is described as something like
"many times per second"; the implication is that you don't
get to choose when it's on (so no easy intercepts) and the 
effect is as if it were "partially transparent".

- -RB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:32:57 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The Imperium as a planetary owner

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: Re: The Imperium as a planetary owner
> 
> Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> 
> >The bottom line is that the phrase "controlling the 'space _between_
> >worlds'" is just shorthand for a more complex concept.
> 
> I agree. Here is my take on the knotty question of Imperial authority
> versus planetary autonomy:
[Hans' excellent analysis deleted]

Wow.  Hans and I are complete agreement.  That must be a first.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:52:30 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: do jump drives create power?

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: do jump drives create power?
...
>The reduction in scale may reduce the performance in a non-linear
>fashion. Where a 3dTn jump drive's capacitors can move gigajoules
>of energy, a 1dTn driv's capacitor block may only be able to move kilojoules
>or less.

  Not in TNE :(

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:08:56 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:

> If you don't care about the nice round latitudes, set the
> continuous-band angle to N/S 26.56 (actually arccos( squareroot
> (20) / 5) degrees latitude, and *don't* ask me how I figured
> that out); this makes the triangles essentially equilateral.
>
> For most purposes, the icosahedron is a good approximation
> to a sphere, as you found by taping it together. :)

And to think I didn't believe my trigonometry  teachers when
they said I needed to know that stuff.

Thank you liberal arts!   ;-)


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:18:30 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: Today is Camerone Day

On Friday, 30 April 1999 14:10, Black ICE [SMTP:wombat@premier.net] wrote:
> Just a reminder:
> 
> Today is Camerone Day.
> 
> ObTrav:  IMTU, units of Solomani origin, both in the Solomani
> Confederation and in the 3I, celebrate holidays such as St. George's Day
> or Camerone Day.  Which days they celebrate depend on the roots of the
> unit in question (a unit that holds itself descended from the French
> Foreign Legion would celebrate Camerone Day, another unit, of American
> lineage, would instead commemerate Memorial Day, etc.).


from http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/3521/Hrecite.html
RECITATION OF THE BATTLE OF CAMERONE 
This battle took place on the 30th of April 1863, during the campaign of
Mexico. It is celebrated each year, on the anniversary of this date, by all
the regiments of the French Foreign Legion. 
History: 
The French Army was besieging Puebla. 
The mission of the Legion was to ensure the movement and safety of the
convoys, over an 80 mile distance. On the 29th of April 1863, Colonel
Jeanningros was informed that an important convoy was on its way to Puebla,
with a load of 3 million francs, and material and munitions for the seige.
Captain Danjou, his quartermaster, decided to send a company to escort the
convoy. The 3rd company of the Foreign Regiment was assigned to this
mission, but had no officers available. So Captain Danjou, himself, took the
command and 2nd lieutenants Maudet, company guide, and Vilain, the
paymaster, joined him voluntarily. 
On the 30th of April, at 1 a.m., the 3rd company was on its way, with its 3
officers and 62 men. At 7 a.m., after a 15 mile march, it stopped at Palo
Verde in order to get some rest. At this very moment, the enemy showed up
and the battle began. Captain Danjou made the company take up a square
formation and, even though retreating, he victoriously drove back several
cavalry charges, inflicting the first heavy losses on the enemy . 
By the inn of Camerone, a large building with a courtyard protected by a
wall 3 meters high, Danjou decided to stay, in order to keep the enemy and
so delay for as long as possible, any attacks on the convoy. 
While the legionnaires were rapidly setting up the defense of the inn, a
Mexican officer demanded that Captain Danjou surrender, pointing out the
fact that the Mexican Army was greatly superior in number. 
Danjou's answer was: "We have munitions. We will not surrender." Then, he
swore to fight to the death and made his men swear the same. It was 10 a.m.
Until 6 p.m., these 60 men who had had nothing to eat or drink since the day
before, in spite of the extreme heat, of the thirst and hunger, resisted
against 2,000 Mexicans: 800 cavalry and 1,200 infantry. 
At noon, Captain Danjou was shot in the chest and died. At 2 p.m., 2nd
lieutenant Vilain was shot in the head. About this time, the Mexican colonel
succeeded in setting the inn on fire. 
In spite of the heat and the smoke, the legionnaires resisted, but many of
them were killed or injured. By 5 p.m., only 12 men could still fight with
2nd lieutenant Maudet. At this time, the Mexican colonel gathered his
soldiers and told them what disgrace it would be if they were unable to
defeat such a small number of men. The Mexicans were about to give the
general assault through holes opened in the walls of the courtyard, but
Colonel Milan, who had previously asked 2nd lieutenant Maudet to surrender,
once again gave him the opportunity to. Maudet scornfully refused. 
The final charge was given. Soon, only 5 men were left around Maudet;
Corporal Maine, legionnaires Catteau, Wensel, Constantin and Leonard. Each
had only one bullet left. In a corner of the courtyard, their back against
the wall, still facing the enemy, they fixed bayonets. When the signal was
given, they opened fire and fought with their bayonets. 2nd lieutenant
Maudet and 2 legionnaires fell, mortally wounded. Maine and his 2 remaining
companions were about to be slaughtered when a Mexican officer saved them.
He shouted: "Surrender"! 
"We will only if you promise to allow us to carry and care for our injured
men and if you leave us our guns". 
"Nothing can be refused to men like you"!, answered the officer. 
Captain Danjou's men had kept their promise; for 11 hours, they had resisted
2,000 enemy troops. They had killed 300 of them and had injured as many.
Their sacrifice had saved the convoy and they had fulfilled their mission. 
Emperor Napoleon the 3rd decided that the name of Camerone would be written
on the flag of the Foreign Regiment and the names of Danjou, Vilain and
Maudet would be engraved in golden letters on the walls of the Invalides, in
Paris. 
Moreover, a monument was built in 1892, at the very place of the fight. The
following inscription can be read there :
HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY 
AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY 
ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM 
BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE 
ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS 
THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863. 
TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT. 
Since then, when Mexican troops pass by the monument, they present arms.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:44:46 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Imperial Starports

Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:50:51 +1000, "Hughes, Michael"
<Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>

>1)	Does the Imperium control all starports in a system or just the best
>one on the mainworld? If they  control all, does this include F, G & H?

The Imperium generally controls at least one port in every system.
This is almost always the best one, but I don't think there is any
rule on it.  Ports outside of Imperial control are generally
space ports for insystem traffic.  Of course, for example on thigs
like private worlds, this starts to become irrelvant.

>2)	Can someone who evades the local customs/police etc. claim asylum in
>an Imperial Starport, or would the STA boss simply pass 'em or would it be
>up to him/her as circumstances dictate?

This is going to be covered under GURPS Traveller: Starports.  I
think that port directors generaly cooperate with local authorities,
but are not obligated to.

>3)	Would imperial marines be garrisoned at the ports as security, or
>would it just be tendered by STA to a local security company (or do the STA
>have their own security forces)?

If a port needs such troops, they are marines.  IIRC, some ports
may rely on just police type units however.

>4)	Would an imperial governor (do all imperial world's have them?) have
>his/her/its residence at the port?

I think this is usually not true.  The local noble has a feif
elsewhere normally.

>5)	Would the imperial navy have crew stationed at port
>batteries/screens?

Probably.

>6)	Would people travelling in sub or small craft from port to elsewhere
>on the planet, need to go through customs first?

Yes.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:51:12 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:54:46 -0700, Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>

>>>Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still connected, and pumping
>>>LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang outside the jump
>>>field? In this case the explosive bolts are only used when the ship
>>>actually jumps, and the tanks are discarded into jump space.
>>
>>Then the question is how can you jump with drop tanks right
>>next to you, but not with anything else.

>For the same reason the ship's bridge, fuel tanks, engineering, cargo,
>staterooms, and everything else "right next to" the jump drive goes along
>with the ship.

But these count against you displacement.  Drop tanks don't....

> The mechanism depends on your personal jump theory; the jump
>grid believers will say drop tanks must have a grid on their surface
>connected to the ship's jump grid; the jump coil crowd would say the tanks
>have to be built inside the generated jump field.

I sounds like you are talking about "demountable tanks" where
you take them with you (and they count against displacement)
and the get rid of them later.  These don't have the problems
that drop tanks do.

>How can the ship jump within 10 diameters of the drop tank?

They can't.  The point is that you get 100 diams away before
you jump.

> The same way it
>can jump within 10 diameters of a grappled craft, sensor array

You can't jump safely near these either....

>Starships have been jumping with things "right next to" them since Book 1.

I don't think so.  I certainly don't recall any expamples.

It certainly is inconsitent with how the 100 diam limit is
protrayed.


______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:53:27 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> I started plugging ships into my spreadsheet.  I get a 24% increase
> in cargo/passenger space for a free trader.  My jump-4 ship got
> a 183% increase.  Furthermore, without drop tanks the amount
> of cargo goes steadily down and the price goes steadily up
> so that, if you account for the fact that a faster ship can
> deliver more cargo, you peak out at about J-2 as the most
> optimal.  With drop tanks this all changes.  You cargo changes
> a little and you price doesn't go up as fast as your speed, so
> the most efficient is jump-6.  There realy is no reason why

A few notable disasters pushes them back into R&D in 1106 (canon, even for 
GT, BtC sidebar, pg 6).  "Years" to reverse the severe stock decline and 
means no major commercial line adopts them, either.  (same GT source).  14 
years of various R&D and improvement on "capacitor engineering" maybe they'll 
start to come back eventually.  By the time of a GTL13 Third Imperium, why 
shouldn't drop tank shipping be the norm?  Just because you don't want it to? 
 When it doesn't have to have any effect on your campaign (unless they 
compete regularly w/ the megacorps)?

> all long distance cargos wouldn't go jump-6.  (Now I think
> that J-4 X-boats aren't a problem with the existing traveller
> universe, but in this case it would be).

You must've missed that debate.  ;-)  Besides J-6 X-boats are supposed to be 
in the works.

> I should be noted that 25% is easily enough to drive non-drop
> tank ships out of business.

At which point they liquidate their ships and lacking a bank payment, the new 
owners can undercut the price the drop tank shippers charge, which puts them 
out of business before they've really gotten going.  How long will that buy 
us, David? :-)

> >Rather than spend time and energy debating why drop tanks *can't* work the
> >way they're supposed to, why not figure out how they *can*?
> 
> I'll tell you my issue....
<snip>

Which ignores the question asked.  Why can't you even *try* to find a way for 
drop tanks to work, instead of laying a case for why they don't.  You can't 
come up w/ a couple more disasters or serious flaws in drop tank tech that 
pushes them off from mass usage before 1130 or so, saving your campaigns from 
the Doom That Is Drop Tanks?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:53:35 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >IMTU, *ANYTHING* inside the jump bubble goes with them.
> 
> But if it is inside the jump bubble, you can just take them
> to your destination.....

What's preventing them from drifting outside of the bubble into jumpspace, 
where they'll malfunction and disapear?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:56:07 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

>> The problem with a laser (especially the fixed forward mount of the
>> Rampart) is that if you can shoot him, he can shoot you.
>
>Not if he zaps him from orbit.  And the rampart is a helluva lot faster than
>a grav tank (even a Trepida).  And the grav tank is probably armed w/ a high
>energy weapon.  It's the ol classic game of shoot while in your optimum
>range, but outside the enemy's.

The problem with the "zap from orbit" scenario is why use a fighter at all?
For that matter, why use a grav tank?

If all grav based vehicles can be pinpointed and destroyed by orbital fire,
no on ewill build or buy grav tanks.

If a fighter can destroy a grav vehicle from orbit, why not use a destroyer
or close escort (or whatever) which, gun for gun and ton for ton, is a
cheaper solution under any design system (except, perhaps, G:T which I am
not familiar with).

My view of these facts leads me to conclude that either;

1). Grav Vehicles are only used when combating lower tech enemies, or
enemies with no space support.

or

2). Grav Vehicles are "Stealthy" enough that a pinpoint sensor lock from
orbital ranges is not possible.

Either of these allows the presence of Grav vehicles without dramatically
changing the face of the "canon" traveller universe.  Since I believe the
Army played an important role in the Fifth Frontier War, I will choose to
believe number 1 above.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:54:58 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> > BTW, your calcs above depend on making the ship completely dependant on 
> > drop tanks. This might be acceptable on a safe Core route. But it would 
be a big 
> > risk relying on this in the Spinward Marches.
<snip> 
> Personally, I would argue the Marches are, as a heavily militarized
> frontier, among the more secure places in the Imperium.

Except when Zhodani and Vargr and Sworld Worlder commerce raiders are 
rampaging through, right?  ;-)

> After all, there is a BatRon of Tigresses per fleet, and an average of a
> fleet per subsector, right ?

Average of *2* fleets per subsector (1 regular, 1 colonial), but the Domain 
of Deneb only has *1* BatRon of Tigresses (supplement 9, pg 38), though the 
norm is 1 per sector (same reference).

> >>There realy is no reason why
> >>all long distance cargos wouldn't go jump-6.
> >
> >Yes, there is actually.
> >Existing capital expenditure. (i.e: we can't afford a new ship now)
> >The fact that not all worlds are Jump-6 apart  The fact that not all worlds
> >have support for drop-tanks.
> 
> Drop tanks result in substantial per parsec efficiency increases for jump-4
> to -6 craft.
> 
> Drop ships actually have a smaller capital requirement *per dton of carried
> cargo*, which makes them far easier to afford. The smaller capital costs
> also make them less vulnerable to jumps in interest rates.

Higher jump ships still have a much higher initial cost, which puts them out 
of reach of the average small timer.  There is very little to say that the 
megacorps are NOT using bulk drop tank freighters for the majority of 
shipping.

> Even if only the Golden Routes (Trin-Mora for example) go to drop tanks
> initially, there will be major knock on effects, as internal tankage ships
> are forced away from the Golden Routes and onto secondary and tertiary 
routes.

If the internal tankage ship companies are driven out of business (more 
likely than driven onto less economic routes, after all aren't they optimized 
for the routes they're on, as far as profitability, etc?), the ships can be 
sold at under cost and lacking a equal payment can undercut the price drop 
tank shipping can (who's ships must be new and being payed off).  This will 
certainly delay things a bit.

> Some technologies are so efficient as to be revolutionary. Drop tanks for
> Traveller starships are such a technology.

Hardly.  From the very beginning (If JTAS 2 doesn't qualify, what does?), 
there have been serious doubts shed on their actual safety and effectiveness. 
 The only design that has them has a miserable reputation in the IN.  It's 
easy to come up w/ more disasters and more and more dubious megacorps 
deciding to stick w/ "proven" technology rather than risk the fortunes of 
General and Tukera (big stock and profit drops all around for the only 
canonical mentions of j-tanks, remember?).

> >>I should be noted that 25% is easily enough to drive non-drop
> >>tank ships out of business.
> >
> >Only if the infrastructure is already in place, and only _where_ the
> >infrastructure is in place.
> 
> The infrastructure is cheap. Real cheap. It's shuttles carrying tanks.

Not really.  It's comparable to LASH in complexity, which itself isn't viable 
against "standard" shipping on the main routes.  That also assumes everyone 
is using standardized drop tanks.  Which would make sense after awhile, but 
not initially as there would be competing designs and sizes.  Also a small 
ships drop tanks are going to be useless for a large ships (say <1000 dt vs 
10,000+ dt).  

On a Free Trader's scale, noone has addressed what would happen on an 
unprofitable, much less diasterous run where new drop tankage can't be 
afforded, much less a misjump to a low tech world.
 
> >Or you don't. I'd say you can use a "jump-station".  It's not that it's
> >physically impossible, but that it's non-profitable.
> 
> Prove it. The numbers that have been kicked around indicate at least a 25%
> jump in efficiency - and thats assuming amortisation of the shuttles and
> tankage.

No they didn't.  The numbers gave a drop tank and non drop tank equipped ship 
of otherwise equivalent design a 25% jump.  That was at J2 IIRC.  It does 
increase per jump number, but the cost of drop tank recovery and refurbishing 
was not.  I'm waiting for some numbers that are contrary to what Christopher 
Thrash and Jim Maclean have pointed out (which precluded the need for me to 
do so).  You gonna put out an anlysis Ian?  David?  I'm certainly interested 
in *some* evidence from your side so that I might make my final decision for 
the RC.

> >Or say they do exist, then there's the economic argument. There's no way a
> >single ship can make a proftable run on the routes that supported such a
> >system, as the big companies would control the stations, (or at least get
> >larger volume discounts).
> 
> The model for ports, airports and petrol stations is a 3rd party owns them,
> and various companies lease space and services.

Err... the megacorps would control their own facilities.  Small fries would 
have to make do w/ whatever the starport/locals and/or a 3rd party would put 
out.  Neither would be able to compete w/ a megacorps financial wielding.

> I see no reason for jump tanks to be any different - it's just a matter of
> shuttles to take and connect full tanks to the ships.

And also to recover the used ones if theyr'e going to be refurbished.  Have 
to pay all these people and the equipment their using.  As well as set up a 
drop tank refurbishing industry.  W/o reusing the tanks, the whole thing 
doesnt' work at all, of course.

> >The only place a free trader could make money is _outside_ the main runs
> >where these stations don't exist.
> 
> Ahhh, but they are now competing with all the corporate internal-tankage
> ships forced off the Golden Runs.

Nope.  In any case, as Far Trader points out, all the free trader is doing is 
picking up teh crumbs left behind by the megacorps anyways (or for those 
worlds/routes insignificant to rate big time traffic).

> >It only becomes hokey and contrived if you try to limit the possibilities
> >for no good reason. This is the same in almost any game. You should never
> >say "such and such is impossible because..".  You say "Are you aware of the
> >problems with that approach ?"
> >Nothing is ever impossible, there are just good reasons why it isn't (or
> >hasn't been) done.

Well said.

> There is another explainiation. It seemed like a good idea at the time, and
> the designers didnt bother to run through the implications.

Except the doubts were laid on them from the beginning, too.  It's jumping to 
conclusions and grappling them onto an uncanonical j-theory that dooms them.  
The "implications" on the future of Traveller economics are quite debatable, 
given safety and tech considerations. 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:55:56 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea
> Date: 28. huhtikuuta 1999 11:15
> 
> I'm working on a GURPS Space setting where we discover that there was an
> inteligent race of dinosaurs who sent out sublight colonization missions
65
> million years ago.  Most of the nearby stars have been seeded with
Earthlife.
> 
And what happens when the offspring of the dino-colonists want regain their
home planet - Earth?

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:00:42 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

- ----------
> From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 
> Date: 30. huhtikuuta 1999 18:04
> 
> At 01:58 AM 4/30/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >Of course I know who he is... I own all of Thompson's books, and almost
> >every Doonesbury...   My favorite character of all time was ripped
straight
> >out of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
> >
> >Ob Traveller:  Who has PCs that use drugs?  I mean, aside from the
medical
> >and Psi-stuff?  Or all we all playing straight-arrow boy scouts?
> >
> >Damien Fox
> >phocks@goodnet.com
> >
> 
> I've run several Gurps games with charaters with 'addiction' as a
> disadvantage.  One I remember was a generally good ex military character
> that turned real nasty without his stuff (combat adder drug).
> 
> One of the funniest was a smoking addict.  He played the part very well. 
He
> kept trap of the time sence his last smoke real closely add acted like he
> had gone without.  The player had recently quit smoking himself and was
in
> effect poking fun at himself.
> 
At one GURPS near-future mercenary campaign I had a character with both a
nicotine addiction _and_ 2 levels of weak will. The result: the poor guy
had quit smoking 3 years ago, but couldn't get rid of nicotine-chewing gum.
(One other character was a chain-smoker, and because of anti-smoking laws
spent most of his time isolated from other characters in a ventilated
plexi-glass "smoking-booth".)

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:21:51 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

[After I finished this, I noticed it was stuff that had been
hashed over before.  I think I'll stop here....]

Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:01:25 +1200, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>BTW, your calcs above depend on making the ship completely dependant on drop
>tanks.
>This might be acceptable on a safe Core route. But it would be a big risk
>relying on this in the Spinward Marches.

I don't see why.  One thing the piracy debate established was that,
if ship depart from predetermined points they are easier to protect
against pirates and a merchant ship will generally be arriving and
won't be able to jump again without refueling anyway.

>>There realy is no reason why
>>all long distance cargos wouldn't go jump-6.

>Yes, there is actually.
>Existing capital expenditure.

This will mean they will be phased in over a period, it won't
prevent then from taking over.

> (i.e: we can't afford a new ship now)
>The fact that not all worlds are Jump-6 apart

I'm not sure what you mean.  Some cargos won't be going
that far.  I'm not sure if it would be better to have special
low jumps ships  or just use a higher jump ships and save
having to build a special one.  In my ananlysis I assumed
that a vary minor world would, in fact, have a jump-1 ship that
moved cargo to the nearest significant port for transhipment.
Long Distance cargoes will go at high jump.

>  The fact that not all worlds
>have support for drop-tanks.

Actually, if you look at the economics, most will.

>Perhaps the real costs of the capacitors used to allow drop-tanks are being
>hidden as part of an attempt to break into the market.
>Maybe every five thousand hours you have to replace those capacitors.
>
>Or, perhaps as the raw materiels being used in these capacitors become more
>in demand the price will increase (perhaps this has already happened) making
>new drop-tank ships too expensive.
>
>There are all sorts of reasons that can be used to explain this. Think about
>why not all ships in the real world are not super tankers or container
>ships, and why not all aircraft flights go between main cities.


At this point one has decided that the description as present
doesn't, in fact, work and needs to be changed, then
I think it is much better to drop the rule rather than load
it down with arbitrary effects and restrictions.  Introducing
a new technology and the loading it down with restrictions so
it can only have a narrow range of uses is pretty contrived.

>>I'll tell you my issue....
>>
>>The problem is when we get into a situation where the player
>>reads the effect and says "great, I want to be able to use this
>>with collapable tanks".  You give him an arbitrary reason, that
>>doesn't follow from the described effect, why you can push
>>them away, but you can't pull them in.
>
>I wouldn't. I'd say he can _use_ them.
>
>But, a collapsible tank that you take with you doesn't give you anything
>over internal tankage.

I'm talking about a tank that doesn't count against the limit and
collapses into the ship before you jump.  I means you get all
the benefits of drop tanks but don't have to rely on jump stations.
Less of an interest for merchant ships, but great for military
ships.

>>Then he says, "well, can I use these capacitors with my weapons.
>>You give him an arbitrary reason, that doesn't follow from the
>>described effect, why you can use that energy for one purpose
>>and not for another.

>Or you don't. I'd say you can use a "jump-station".  It's not that it's
>physically impossible, but that it's non-profitable.
>Playing with high energy is dangerous, one mistake and you can kiss good-bye
>to your multi-billion credit jump station. And it may not be your mistake.
>Some tramp trader comes through with an improperly synchronized switching
>unit, and bang !

So you want them to just happen to be too dangerous for merchant
use but just safe enough so PC can use them?  The problem is that
these sorts of restrictions feel as contrived as they are (the
risk "just happens" to fit a predetermined value and can't be
easily changed) and they don't solve all the problems (any
thing that is safe enough for PC is going to be great for
military uses and drop tanks are easily as big advantage being
able to do J-3 which was supposedly one of the things that let
the Solomani beat the Vilani).  So now you need more restrictions
and it get more arbitrary.

It also still conflicts with how they are presented in the
entry in question (as having been in commercial use for dozens
of years).

[More reasons that are essentailly aribtary restrictions on
them.  IMO, if you introduce a technology it should be allowed
to flow to its natural consequences.  Not doing so is the sort
of thing that has given too many SF settings so much of a contrived
feel.]

>It only becomes hokey and contrived if you try to limit the possibilities
>for no good reason.

For me, simply trying to introduce a new techology so that people
can play with it (for a short time until they get used to it and
take if for granted) but preventing it from having its naturaly
believable consequences isn't a good reason (after the initial
interest and you
take it for granted, the conflicts, arbitriness, etc. remains
with the setting forever.  This is a problem with older settings
that one hasn't been careful with.  They are full of things that
"just happen" to have all sorts of side effects that prevent
them from really being useful)

>One good approach, if you're not the sort of person who come up with good
>and consistent drawbacks on the fly

The problem is that I don't think I should _have_ to arbitrarily
rule that, every time the players come up with an idea, that something
unexpected happens.  I can do it but it is contrived and prevents
players from trying to extrapolate on the setting as describe,
and damamge believability.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #538
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 30 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 539



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Black Globes
re: Fuel Stations
Re: Copyright
Re: Copyright
Re: CT character gen programs
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe
Re: Black Globes 
G:T Far Trader
Re: Vilani expansion
Re: The Imperium as a planetary owner
Re: low tech melee weapons
Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Sneaky (stolen) scenarios (was Re: RPG Paranoia) 
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:09:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>Average of *2* fleets per subsector (1 regular, 1 colonial), but the Domain 
>of Deneb only has *1* BatRon of Tigresses (supplement 9, pg 38), though the 
>norm is 1 per sector (same reference).

  That's a bad quote; it says one in the _Spinward Marches_.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:09:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>>But, a collapsible tank that you take with you doesn't give you anything
>>over internal tankage.
>
>I'm talking about a tank that doesn't count against the limit and
>collapses into the ship before you jump.  I means you get all
>the benefits of drop tanks but don't have to rely on jump stations.
>Less of an interest for merchant ships, but great for military
>ships.

  It's a cute idea, but it's not an allowed option under CT.

 The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
     Consult your conscience closely before considering formats over 6"x9".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:05:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> > >IMTU, *ANYTHING* inside the jump bubble goes with them.
> > 
> > But if it is inside the jump bubble, you can just take them
> > to your destination.....
> 
> What's preventing them from drifting outside of the bubble into jumpspace, 
> where they'll malfunction and disapear?

IMTU?  Nothing.  IYTU?  I have no clue.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:00:23 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> [After I finished this, I noticed it was stuff that had been
> hashed over before.  I think I'll stop here....]
> 
> Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:01:25 +1200, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> >BTW, your calcs above depend on making the ship completely dependant on drop
> >tanks.
> >This might be acceptable on a safe Core route. But it would be a big risk
> >relying on this in the Spinward Marches.
> 
> I don't see why.  One thing the piracy debate established was that,
> if ship depart from predetermined points they are easier to protect
> against pirates and a merchant ship will generally be arriving and
> won't be able to jump again without refueling anyway.

The problem is, and still remains, once those points are known and plotted, a 
*determined* enemy can deny you the use of them.  If you're using 'jump 
stations', all the enemy has to do is commit enough forces to ensure its 
destruction, and the system is now pretty much pacified.  The danger in the 
Spinward Marches isn't so much piracy as it is the next Frontier War.  Zho & 
SW commerce raiders *aren't* pirates, and they're not so much interested in 
taking prizes home for the money (althugh they do this to a limited extent to 
help offset the cost of having them out there in the first place) as they are 
in *destroying* trade entirely to bring economic forces to bear on the enemy.  
See the difference?  The guys coming at your fuel station aren't going to be 
400 ton corsairs, they're gonna be a DesRon or better.  If it makes a system 
or a group of systems surrender faster due to lack of resources, all the 
better.  You'll lose fewer men & ships taking them.

And no, *military* ships IMTU aren't designed to *exclusively* use drop tanks 
to the sacrifice of all internal jump fuel.  *Some* are designed to have drop 
tanks added to extend their range, but that's about all.  They still have 
their usual range without the tanks.

> >  The fact that not all worlds
> >have support for drop-tanks.
> 
> Actually, if you look at the economics, most will.

In Core areas, maybe.  On a raw frontier (i.e., D & E starports)?  Not for 
awhile, not until they upgrade to at least C's.
 
> >But, a collapsible tank that you take with you doesn't give you anything
> >over internal tankage.
> 
> I'm talking about a tank that doesn't count against the limit and
> collapses into the ship before you jump.  I means you get all
> the benefits of drop tanks but don't have to rely on jump stations.
> Less of an interest for merchant ships, but great for military
> ships.

You don't get *squat* for using collapsible tanks.  If they're internal, they 
just take up room that would be used for cargo or whatever.  Filling this 
space *after* the fuel is used and *before* the jump would be impractical at 
best, impossible at worst.  If you're going to go through the trouble of using 
collapsible tanks all the time, you might as well save a few creds & just 
install normal tankage.
 
> So you want them to just happen to be too dangerous for merchant
> use but just safe enough so PC can use them?  The problem is that
> these sorts of restrictions feel as contrived as they are (the
> risk "just happens" to fit a predetermined value and can't be
> easily changed) and they don't solve all the problems (any
> thing that is safe enough for PC is going to be great for
> military uses and drop tanks are easily as big advantage being
> able to do J-3 which was supposedly one of the things that let
> the Solomani beat the Vilani).  So now you need more restrictions
> and it get more arbitrary.

It was J-2 that gave the Sollies the edge in the Interstellar Wars, but the 
ships *weren't* equipted with drop tanks.  It was all internal.
 
> It also still conflicts with how they are presented in the
> entry in question (as having been in commercial use for dozens
> of years).

How they were portrayed in canon, and how I take them IMTU is, drop tanks 
*agument* jump fuel.  They don't *replace* it.
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:17:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Black Globes

>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
>Subject: Re: Black Globes
...
>IIRC, per High Guard 2nd Edition, 20% flicker is 20% on-time, 
>80% off; no explanation is given for why 100% on is always 
>achievable /...

  Darned Ancients should have left instruction manuals :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:17:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Fuel Stations

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Fuel Stations
...
>A fuel tank can be deployed that is not intended to carry fuel through
>jump space. It will be filled by tankers at the site, and transported
>empty (or even collapsed) back for refurbishment. I'm thinking that
>dismountable tanks may be the ticket here, but I don't recall the price
>of them. They're rigid, so should last longer than 6-months.

  Cost of the actual tanks is the same.

  Somewhat absurdly, drop tanks are arguably more robust, as they can survive
skimming operations (it's also more than little a bit bizarre that they don't
affect streamlining).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:08:02 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright

jcarlino wrote:

> Okay, so Vilani copyright laws impede technological innovation and the
> development of new devices. And that's why there's only been a 2 GTL jump in
> 1000 years (from GTL 10 to GTL 12). What's stopping the Darrians from
> re-establishing GTL 13? Why hasn't the Zhodani Consulate bypassed the
> Imperium technologically?
>
> Terry C.

Just to be clear, there are four general types of Intellectual Property:

Patents - technology, designs, inventions, etc.  More than expressions.

Copyrights - expressions.  (the US has defined software into copyright, but
software that meets the requirements can be patented)

Trademarks - identifiers of origin source.

Trade Secrets - stuff you hide from your competitors, regardless of whether
it qualifies for other protection.


Vilani *patent* laws impede technological innovation because they
are excessively strong, and include the rights to control all derivative
innovations.  This is used to explain why it took so long for them
to develop overall.  Compare Solomani innovation rate, and it looks
like the Vilani are almost standing still.

You're other questions have whatever answers you want.
There is nothing officially holding anyone back.  There is just an
economic disincentive to invest in innovation in the 3I.  Its
not so strong that it can't be overcome, but it slows things down
because the chances of getting rich by pouring all your resources
into research is less than say, modern day Terra, because you
can't build upon the inventions of others and still hope to get rich.

The Darrians seem introspective to me, and not hell bent on
getting rich through innovation.  And the Zhodani keep their
Proles down where they belong.  They are the proletariat after all.

(Why has it taken me so long to realize the Prole is short for
Proletariat?  Compartmentalized mind, I guess.  Hmmm,
anyone want to speculate on the effect of a Zhodani revolution?
Mwahaha.)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:13:46 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright

Chris Seamans wrote:

> Hey, I've got the same question, and I've asked it before!
>
> However, now I shall commence with the handwaves:

Excellent post here, Chris.  Your ideas remind me of
Thomas Kuhn's THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS.

I would suggest that more likely than having "forgotten" something,
the Darrians and Zhodani, are "missing" something.  And since
they both place social and/or physical barriers to foreigners, which means
foreign ideas as well, they're hindering their ability to make a
paradigmatic breakthrough.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:54:44 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> > From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> > Subject: Re: CT character gen programs
>
> > The implication is that high ranking Marines are well connected,
> > but high ranking Navy are well educated.  I would have expected
> > it to go the other way, based on the military people I know.
>
> How many people do you know from the Imperium's military?
>
> --Glenn

Strictly speaking, in Book 1, there is no Imperium, is there?.
 ;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:56:26 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

Les_Howie@keane.com wrote:

> Has anyone out there looked at the math of projecting the standard traveller map
> (essentially a Fuller globe) on to a sphere (and vice-versa)?  Its been a while
> since I did any spherical trig or map projections, so any tips or pointers to
> references would be appreciated.
>
> That map was actually one of the main attractions for me back when I ran
> traveller.  I would cut the maps out and tape them into globes so the players
> could get a "from space" look at the planet they were arriving at.  Gave it a
> nice feel.

I have to do this!  I think I'm going to run down to the printers,
make some color copies on cardstock and do that.

Thanks for posting this idea.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:28:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Black Globes 

> >From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
> >Subject: Re: Black Globes
> ...
> >IIRC, per High Guard 2nd Edition, 20% flicker is 20% on-time, 
> >80% off; no explanation is given for why 100% on is always 
> >achievable /...
> 
>   Darned Ancients should have left instruction manuals :)

They did.  You just have to be telepathic & clairvoyant to use them.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 00:17:23 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: G:T Far Trader

One word to start with. Wow.

Couple of comments. Area Knowledge is the points sink I was hoping for. So
many of the trading rolls are at the lower of your
Mechant/Advertising/whatever skill and AK for the relevant planet. If we
got AKs for each commodity type up, it'd be perfect ...

This hurts brutally optimised characters, because you need to sink points
into each world you intend to turn up on.

Can someone rig up a computer program to generate all the trade routes in
the Marches and to get trade quantities going thru each starport ? My brain
is hurting just trying to do the numbers for Bowman Belt.

Good to see tickets and qualifications in there.

The High Finance stuff will add a new aspect to some games ('There's a
bloke looking for bouncers with tennybopper experience ... any of youse
blokes heard of a band called Seltzmann's IPO ?').

I'm running some tweaks and optional rules for the Spec Trade system
through the bug blender. 

I also have some requests for some really simple computer coding - could
someone with a little bit of time and programming skill email me ?
Basically, the idea is to pre-generate a bunch of spec cargos. It could
even be run as java code on a web page.

A second idea for a GM aid is a list of pre-generated ships and captains
... a sort of Rogues Gallery for who's in port. This is why I need the
total trade quantities. Somewhere like Bowman Belt only has a small amount
of trade itself, but it's throughput is higher, because of being on a route.

Ideally, I'd like to have a GM assistant that would let you punch in the
world, punch in the current freight price and get told '4 Empress Mareva
class, 2 Stretch Traders and a Fat Scout are in port. The captains are ...'.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 01:14:30 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vilani expansion

Michael McKeown writes:
 
>Did the Vilani expand to the Spinward marches subsector? In my campaign the
>players are exploring a Five Sisters planet where they encounter a stone
>age TL 0 tribe...I was wondering if I could make them long lost descendants
>of Vilani explorers..Just wondering?
 
You can certainly have them do so IYTU. It's plausible enough that some
Vilani exiles could have gone there some time between -2300 and -1700.
But as for the OTU, I'm afraid not. But according to _Darrians_, p. 8 of
all the worlds in the Spinward Marches there were humans only on Darrian,
Vanejen, Algine and "a few Zhodani worlds" when the Itzin fleet arrived
in -1513. [Yes, I know that _Behind the Claw_ has half a dozen or more
human populations that predates that date, including two more minor human
races, but that is contrary to previously published material].


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:13:16 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Imperium as a planetary owner

In a message dated 4/30/99 5:52:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:

<< 
 I don't see any conflict.  There are two kinds of worlds in the
 Imperium:  (1) member states, which maintain their sovereignty subject
 to the requirements of membership in the Imperium, and (2) worlds wholly
 owned by the Imperium, which are simply Imperial installations.   >>

	The Imperial Naval Depots would be a really good example of #2.    
The whole system is in fact "owned" by the Imperium.

	Here's another question,   What about Sylea (or Capital if you 
prefer) itself?  In the Milieau 0 sourcebook it is implied that the Minisitry 
of Justice has jurisdiction on Sylea, but perhpas this changes at a later 
date.   Is Capital a "member world" or is it actually Imperial Territory or 
is it in a class by itself?  Does it have a local government?  or is the 
Emperor the direct ruler or the world?

               Dave Nelson 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:30:56 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: low tech melee weapons

In a message dated 4/30/99 11:40:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hyperc@mailcity.com writes:

<< True and misleading. I carried a combat load of about 85 lbs (about 39 
kilos) in the Persian Gulf, about 150 with my rucksack (about 69 kilos) -  >>

	Boy, according to Traveller rules you must have strength of 13 for 
the combat load  or  maybe  23 to carry that sack!

					Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:46:39 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs 

> >> >> ObTrav:  Ambassador Duke as a PC...
> >> >
> >> >There goes the *new* keyboard!!!!!!!!!!!
> >>
> >> I thought *everyone* had already played a Duke as a PC (and NPC, now that
> I
> >> think about it...) Lordknows I have, several times.
> >
> >We're talking *UNCLE* Duke, from Doonesbury.  The guy who's patterned on Dr
> Hunter S. Thompson, former stringer for 'Rolling Stone', author of 'Fear and
> Loathing in <wherever>'.  A total wild man.
> 
> Of course I know who he is... I own all of Thompson's books, and almost
> every Doonesbury...   My favorite character of all time was ripped straight
> out of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Ob Traveller:  Who has PCs that use drugs?  I mean, aside from the medical
> and Psi-stuff?  Or all we all playing straight-arrow boy scouts?

One of my characters goes the exact extreme opposite.  He was on this planet 
where they grow tobacco, and the first time he ran across a guy with a cigar 
and was told they're 'mildly addictive', he *freaked*.   'Nonono!!  Not want 
to be *addict!!!!!'  He was worried that possession of a cigar was on the 
order of possession of a couple kilos of China White or something.  Remember, 
Eris?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:51:55 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

>>>RECITATION OF THE BATTLE OF CAMERONE <<<

I can *almost* hear SgtMajor Calvin addressing the troups on Tanith now....
:)

BobS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:50:15 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Sneaky (stolen) scenarios (was Re: RPG Paranoia) 

> > One thing that may have contributed to the intensity of this particular game
> > was the the PCs were free traders that had only a bar room brawl or two in
> > the campain up till they were stranded on this world.  I personally think
> > that combat in traveller (outside mercinary campains) works best when used
> > like pepper.  A little dash every now and then so that when they bite into
> > the chile pepper it really makes an impression!

Heheh.
 
> I've run into *many* a gamer who'd fall for the vallet people's cause,
> hook, line and sinker. And the look on their faces when they realized
> how badly they'd let their greed sucker them into the massacre would be
> priceless.

No doubt.  <grin>
 
> Wiping out what amounts to a harmless religious community ought to give
> them lots of "karma" to work off. Mostly in the form of a reputation
> it'll take a *long* time to get rid of.
> 
> Can you *imagine* the sort of contact offers a merc unit would get
> after word of something like this got around? <eg>

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:30:14 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

At 07:51 PM 4/30/1999 -0400, you wrote:
> >>>RECITATION OF THE BATTLE OF CAMERONE <<<
>
>I can *almost* hear SgtMajor Calvin addressing the troups on Tanith now....
>:)
>
>BobS

With Christian Johnny standing in the background.

(Actually in the book it was on Hadley, right after the Senate turned out 
the 42nd)


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 11:39:56 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
>
>A few notable disasters pushes them back into R&D in 1106 (canon, even for 
>GT, BtC sidebar, pg 6).  "Years" to reverse the severe stock decline and 
>means no major commercial line adopts them, either.  (same GT source).  14 
>years of various R&D and improvement on "capacitor engineering" maybe
they'll 
>start to come back eventually.  By the time of a GTL13 Third Imperium, why 
>shouldn't drop tank shipping be the norm?  Just because you don't want it
to? 
> When it doesn't have to have any effect on your campaign (unless they 
>compete regularly w/ the megacorps)?

First of all, *everybody* competes with megacorps, if indirectly.

Let us assume that the jump-4 2000 dton Oberlindes freighter is forced off
it's normal route by competition from Tukera drop freighters. Would
Oberlindes put it into Ordinary ? No. They would assign it to another, more
marginal route. This would then kick the jump-3, 1000 dton ship off it's
normal route. At that point, the PCs find their Fledgeling line that was
just getting by linking those small worlds together now has serious
competition.

Now, a smart Oberlindes manager would be scoping out the 'fallback' routes
*before* Tukera shifted their ships onto drop tanks.

>> I should be noted that 25% is easily enough to drive non-drop
>> tank ships out of business.
>
>At which point they liquidate their ships and lacking a bank payment, the
new 
>owners can undercut the price the drop tank shippers charge, which puts them 
>out of business before they've really gotten going.  How long will that buy 
>us, David? :-)

If stock markets are good at one thing, it's adjusting present value to
deal with expected future shocks.

Now, lets work through the (likely) scenario you put forward.

First of all, a lot of ships are collateral for a lot of loans. Now, if the
value of this collateral falls, then previously safe loans are suddenly
looking risky. Banks will be wanting other collateral, or for you to
refinance.

Secondly, shares in companies like Oberlindes back a lot of other
enterprises. If your bank's reserves include Oberlindes shares, and those
shares have just dropped sharply, then you are going to need to get liquid
again - possibly by calling in loans.

Thirdly, people not in the shipping industry go 'Cool. Freight prices have
fallen'. Check out the GT:FT sidebar on p29 for what might happen if the
State suspects that the shipping lines are not allowing the benefits of
this new technology to flow through the Imperium.

If you 'stretch' the GT:FT p15 distance mods by 25% (accepting that drop
tanks reduce freight prices by 25%), then you get substantial increases in
trade (eg trade between 2 WTN 6 worlds 120 parsecs apart becomes 8.5 rather
than 8). Bad for shipping companies with outdated technology, good for
everyone else.

Fourthy, you dont have to scrap your internal tankage ships, you could
refit them for drop tanks. Rip out the tankage, add in pipes, and add more
cargo. It'll be ugly, they'll need time and money to refit and they will
probably be less efficient than a custom drop tank ship, but it's doable.

>Which ignores the question asked.  Why can't you even *try* to find a way
for 
>drop tanks to work, instead of laying a case for why they don't.  You can't 
>come up w/ a couple more disasters or serious flaws in drop tank tech that 
>pushes them off from mass usage before 1130 or so, saving your campaigns
from 
>the Doom That Is Drop Tanks?

Gary, some of us prefer to avoid problems, rather than handwave later.

Personally, I recommend drop tanks increasing your misjump chance to about
3%, which is enough to make them non-viable for commercial use, but fine
for deep-penetration military raids. A variant could be to say that this
increased chance stops 4 TLs after the jump drive was introduced (ie jump-1
with drop tanks is safe at TL13, jump-2 with drop tanks is safe at TL14,
jump 3 with tanks will be safe at TL16 etc). 

Of course, this requires that you write off the references in that %$#% TNS
article to them being extensivly used in Core, etc.

>
>> Personally, I would argue the Marches are, as a heavily militarized
>> frontier, among the more secure places in the Imperium.
>
>Except when Zhodani and Vargr and Sworld Worlder commerce raiders are 
>rampaging through, right?  ;-)

Once every 200 years. And even then it's half a dozen subsectors.

>> Drop ships actually have a smaller capital requirement *per dton of carried
>> cargo*, which makes them far easier to afford. The smaller capital costs
>> also make them less vulnerable to jumps in interest rates.
>
>Higher jump ships still have a much higher initial cost, which puts them out 
>of reach of the average small timer.  There is very little to say that the 
>megacorps are NOT using bulk drop tank freighters for the majority of 
>shipping.

Gary, you've got GT:FT. Use my munchkinned Broker (p90 sidebar) and try to
borrow a hundred million via a bond issue. It isnt too much of a problem.

That hundred million should build a jump-5 300 dton jump freighter that can
do Mercator-Glisten with no stops. Now, Express cargo rates are Cr800 per
parsec, so thats Cr 4000 for the route. I'd say with ummm 25 ktons of cargo
a week between Glisten and Mercator (plus the feed from Five Sisters via
Collace) there should be some people interested in an express service.

<ship is 400 dt hull, 200t armour, Bridge, Engo, 30 mnvr, 24 jump(TL11),
utility, sickbay, 5 lo berths, 12 staterooms, 288 dt cargo, 2 Collapsible
Tanks. Cost is MCr 94.74. Class name is the 'Ditzammer Spofulam', on the
grounds it has Entirely Too Much Speed>

OK. 288 dtons of cargo, so at KCr 4 per jump we get revenue of MCr 1.08,
plus a couple of passengers at about KCr 10 each (assume they pay the
salaries of the crew and other incidentals).

Now, to earn 6% on our hundred megacredits, we need to turn a profit of MCr
6 in a year. Assume 30 jumps a year, and thats a required profit of KCr 200
a jump.


>No they didn't.  The numbers gave a drop tank and non drop tank equipped
ship 
>of otherwise equivalent design a 25% jump.  That was at J2 IIRC.  It does 
>increase per jump number, but the cost of drop tank recovery and
refurbishing 
>was not.  I'm waiting for some numbers that are contrary to what Christopher 
>Thrash and Jim Maclean have pointed out (which precluded the need for me to 
>do so).  You gonna put out an anlysis Ian?  David?  I'm certainly interested 
>in *some* evidence from your side so that I might make my final decision for 
>the RC.

Well, Gary, lets do the numbers.

A Ditzie Spof class needs 200 dtons of fuel, so lets take the Collapsible
tank and scale it up to 200 dtons. Turns into KCr 666 expenditure, plus the
200 dtons of fuel at Cr 350 per is KCr 70 (OK, I'm beinding the rules here.
The other option was to design a 480 dton Fast Trader that would use 2
Collapsible Tanks).

Thus, the fuelling requirements are goanna cost the fat bastard KCr 736 per
jump.

He takes a Black out of his pocket (leaving 8 k-bills change from what
he'll get from the cargo), and pays for the collapsible tanks on the nose.
He then pays the bondholders their two hundred, leaving him KCr 72 clear
profit once the cheque from the Bill of Lading clears on Glisten.

If you assume drop tanks are even vaguely reusable, then Ganisiirdi is
going to need a new room on his gallery *real* soon.

Now, the cost of taking cargo from Mercator to Glisten is Cr 2220 using
'standard' freight rates.

At these rates, the Ditzie Spof class will get KCr 504 revenue. We need KCr
200 to pay off the bondholders, so we have KCr 300 to pay for 200 dtons of
drop fuel and to provide surplus profit. Given that fuel costs Cr 750
delivered to the 100 diameter limit (GT:FT p66), we should manage this nicely.

Of course, the real money is made when something commercially signifigant
happens on either world, and Ganisiirdi is the first to know, because his
ship carried the news ... 

>Err... the megacorps would control their own facilities.  Small fries would 
>have to make do w/ whatever the starport/locals and/or a 3rd party would put 
>out.  Neither would be able to compete w/ a megacorps financial wielding.
>

See the GT:FT p29 sidebar ('Government Intervention') for an alternate view.

>> I see no reason for jump tanks to be any different - it's just a matter of
>> shuttles to take and connect full tanks to the ships.
>
>And also to recover the used ones if theyr'e going to be refurbished.  Have 
>to pay all these people and the equipment their using.  As well as set up a 
>drop tank refurbishing industry.  W/o reusing the tanks, the whole thing 
>doesnt' work at all, of course.

See above :)

>Nope.  In any case, as Far Trader points out, all the free trader is doing
is 
>picking up teh crumbs left behind by the megacorps anyways (or for those 
>worlds/routes insignificant to rate big time traffic).
>

GT:FT isnt limited to just free traders, unlike previous trade and commerce
rules. You can use whats in there to handle any scale of trade.

>> There is another explainiation. It seemed like a good idea at the time, and
>> the designers didnt bother to run through the implications.
>
>Except the doubts were laid on them from the beginning, too.  It's jumping
to 
>conclusions and grappling them onto an uncanonical j-theory that dooms
them.  
>The "implications" on the future of Traveller economics are quite debatable, 
>given safety and tech considerations. 
>
>

FUD worked real well against the railroads, and thats the comparison I'm
using.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #539
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 540



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Copyright
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...
Fleets (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: For the Grognards Among Us....
Re: G:T Far Trader
Re: low tech melee weapons
Re: Silly adventure idea
Re: low tech melee weapons
Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #539
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #537
Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Re: Surface-Based Black Globes
Re: Silly adventure idea
Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 
Re: Roadshow (was Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs)
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Golf (with an Ob Trav)
Re: Space Station
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: CT character gen programs
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...
Re: Background hook: New starport

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 10:29:45 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
To: traveller-digest@mpgn.com <traveller-digest@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, 30 April 1999 6:45
Subject: Traveller Fanzines


>Thanks to Mr. Simpson, I've been spending the last few hours looking
>over old Traveller fanzines...
>
>As I look over these things, I see that they all died out right around
>or after MegaTraveller came on the scene...
>
>Did MT really devastate that many people?  The editorial of the last
>"Third Imperium" says that Mike Jackson was halting production of it
>because he was writing for GDW officially now - yet I don't recall
>anything written by him...
>
>
>
>DonM.
>--

From what I noticed, earning a bit of pocket money pursuing my hobby by
working part time in a game store for a friend back then, CT had a core of
followers in SE Queensland (SEQ), we (myself included) were keen on MT when
we heard it was coming right up until we all purchased it and put it into
play!

There were many errors, and many of the ship deckplans in the current
campaigns that we wanted to convert to the new rules just didn't convert
without fudging (ID'ing where these needed fudging was more work than
designing new ships and drawing new DP's), at least that's what we found.
Great background as usual, but to many bad or complicated additions.

Many of us never turned back to CT (I persisted as long as I could, but my
players couldn't handle the new complications) and the group eventually
folded and turned to AD&D mainly.  Traveller virtually died with MT in SEQ.
TNE was snapped up by myself and a few others when it was seen on the
shelves, but with most of the SEQ'ers, it was to late with just as many
errors as MT.

I can't say how well GT is faring, I know the GURPS system is pretty strong
here, we can only hope.  I also can't speak for the rest of Australia
either, but I know that all of the CON booklets I have read over the last
umpteen years feature NO Traveller sessions at all, though I have been
approached several times to run a CT session (but I had given my stuff away
by then).  Even the big gaming clubs in Brisbane have nothing by way of
Traveller products that I have seen in the club library.  This is really
sad, considering that in the earlier, now defunct (proto)game clubs,
Traveller was quite popular and rivalled D&D and AD&D equally!

I am an award winning AD&D'er myself (several years running), but I know
what game I'd rather play.  And since finding this list, though I have not
asked nor hinted, the young bloke I gave my stuff to may just give it back
so I can consider a CT campaign once again  :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:00:39 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

At 06:00 PM 4/30/1999 -0400, Keven wrote:

>It was J-2 that gave the Sollies the edge in the Interstellar Wars, but the
>ships *weren't* equipted with drop tanks.  It was all internal.
>

It was J-3 that gave them their advantage.  Both the Solomani & the Vilani 
had J-2.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:14:53 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright

At 08:08 PM 4/29/1999 -0400, you wrote:

>(Why has it taken me so long to realize the Prole is short for
>Proletariat?  Compartmentalized mind, I guess.  Hmmm,
>anyone want to speculate on the effect of a Zhodani revolution?
>Mwahaha.)
Yesterday, we saw Zhdiefdli on his soapbox crying out for freedom of the 
proletariat from the oppression of the noble class, just before being 
dragged away by the Tavrchedl'.

Today Zhdiefdli is back preaching about the good that the nobility brings 
to us, just ask his friend, Natsvienshiepr.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:14:08 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...

- -----Original Message-----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, 30 April 1999 11:49
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities



>
>ObTrav: given the data-storage capabilities of the high TLs in Traveller,
>a capital Navy ship should have stored the equivalent of a branch of a
>big-city public library combined with a Blockbuster Video outlet...
>even a small scout/courier would have a decent selection of films,
>music, and reading material to keep the crew amused during a Jump.
>
>

That would be my take on it, and the holo-technology would allow a "book"
reader to assume any position they like and have a "book" to be projected
almost anywhere for them to read... I also envision said books to have
moving illustrations if the book was an illustrated book?  You could look up
the workings of your favourite weapon or hobby, and there's an image of it
in use... complete with sound if you select that option!

ObTrav:  As for "personal comfort" (errr... prostitutes -- of both sexes
too, I'd assume), I can't see having "pleasure crew" on an Imperial warship,
but on a Brothel Ship may be different?  Perhaps Imperial policy is to put
some chemicals in the crews food to (ahem) kill such natural desires short
term?  I still see prudish ship captains that would frown upon such
activities in the IN/IISS.  In my former TU, I allowed communal "freshers"
on bases and vessels, similar to that in Starship Troopers, but one still
must have natural urges raising their heads over time without some relief
via shore leave or chemical suppression??

- --  The Roc

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 02:07:27 GMT
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Fleets (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

I think part of the confusion here is some poor terminology used by GDW.
They have subsector fleets and sector fleets.   A subsector fleet might
consist of just one or two squadrons and some support ships, while a sector
fleet would have BatRons, CruRons, AssaultRons, CarRaons and lots of other
goodies.

In my campaign, I refer to the subsector entities as Groups, and the sector
entity as a Fleet.  The Fleet is made up of the Groups from the subsectors,
plus some directly-attached units.  The Reserve Groups can be used with
Colonial units to form a Reserve Fleet, or be used to reinforce a regular
Fleet.  In most cases, planetary squadrons (colonial units) would either
combine with Reserve forces to form a Reserve Fleet, or would operate in ad
hoc Patrol Groups in their home subsectors, patrolling for commerce raiders
and protecting convoys.  I made this distinction becuase I figured many of
the 'colonial squadrons' would tend to be lighter patrol-type vessels, or
antiquated larger ships retired from the Imperial Navy.

Steve Charlton

From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
>
>>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
>...
>>Average of *2* fleets per subsector (1 regular, 1 colonial), but the
Domain
>>of Deneb only has *1* BatRon of Tigresses (supplement 9, pg 38), though
the
>>norm is 1 per sector (same reference).

>  That's a bad quote; it says one in the _Spinward Marches_.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:50:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: For the Grognards Among Us....

At 02:09 PM 4/30/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Today is Camerone Day.

To absent friends.  *crash*

>ObTrav:  IMTU, units of Solomani origin, both in the Solomani
>Confederation and in the 3I, celebrate holidays such as St. George's Day
>or Camerone Day.  Which days they celebrate depend on the roots of the
>unit in question (a unit that holds itself descended from the French
>Foreign Legion would celebrate Camerone Day, another unit, of American
>lineage, would instead commemerate Memorial Day, etc.).

I would think that such distinctions would be blurred after 3000 years.
IMTU, the Imperial Marines know that their earliest antecedents wear the
USMC and the Royal Marines, but aren't sure exactly they fought for, or
which traditions came from what unit, or were picked up along the way.

For example, the Marine march is "Sylea, the Brave".  This is Scotland the
Brave, of course (a tune that makes me want to invade northern England when
I hear it.. and I'm half-English.), but since nobody remembered what
Scotland was by the time the Sylean Marines were formed, they just changed
the name.  Even when the Marines retook Terra, they dismissed the Scottish
version as a pale Solomani rip-off of good old Marine honors!

- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:52:40
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader

At 12:17 AM 5/1/99 +1100, you wrote:

>Can someone rig up a computer program to generate all the trade routes in
>the Marches and to get trade quantities going thru each starport ? My brain
>is hurting just trying to do the numbers for Bowman Belt.

Seconded!!!!!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:58:01
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: low tech melee weapons

At 07:30 PM 4/30/99 EDT, you wrote:

>	Boy, according to Traveller rules you must have strength of 13 for 
>the combat load  or  maybe  23 to carry that sack! 

You do not want to know what the average load is for a Ranger waiting on
the Green Ramp.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric flightless
 winged squirrel, coming through.."
                -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:59:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

At 08:55 PM 4/30/99 +0300, you wrote:

>And what happens when the offspring of the dino-colonists want regain their
>home planet - Earth?

Now that would be telling....
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:56:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: low tech melee weapons

At 10:35 AM 4/30/99 -0500, you wrote:

> OTOH, powered Battle Dress is going to still be a major improvement for
the infantryman. You're 'immune' to most small arms fire and small calibre
shrapnel effects, you can ignore NBC attacks, you have constant, secure,
silent comms with your comrades, you can breathe underwater for short
periods, see in the dark, etc. Best of all, you can carry more/heavier
weapons and ammo *without getting tired* from the weight. That is huge. Add
in grav belts for high-speed mobility and you have a fast, lethal force
that can hide rpetty well.

Until the batteries die.  BD is going to be hampered by relatively low
endurance.  Makes it ideal for the first wave/assault package, but that and
the expence of equipping all your troops with BD will result in it being
used only be a small fraction of the troops.

> I've written up an 'H-Hour' timeline for planetary assault by drop troops. 

I'd like to see that, could you send me a copy?
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:15:25 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Hazing Rituals (was re: Flashes)

> >(or turn it around so it unrolls 
> >over the top instead of off the bottom).
> 
> Heretic!  That's the proper way to mount toilet paper!  Repent!  Repent! :)

I know that and you know that, but the Vilani don't (nor does my 
wife). 

:{)




- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:28:19 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #539

> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:08:02 -0400
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: Copyright
>
> jcarlino wrote:
>
>> Okay, so Vilani copyright laws impede technological innovation and the
>> development of new devices. And that's why there's only been a 2 GTL jump in
>> 1000 years (from GTL 10 to GTL 12). What's stopping the Darrians from
>> re-establishing GTL 13? Why hasn't the Zhodani Consulate bypassed the
>> Imperium technologically?
>>
>> Terry C.
>
> Just to be clear, there are four general types of Intellectual Property:
>
> Patents - technology, designs, inventions, etc.  More than expressions.
>
> Copyrights - expressions.  (the US has defined software into copyright, but
> software that meets the requirements can be patented)
>
> Trademarks - identifiers of origin source.
>
> Trade Secrets - stuff you hide from your competitors, regardless of whether
> it qualifies for other protection.
>
>
> Vilani *patent* laws impede technological innovation because they
> are excessively strong, and include the rights to control all derivative
> innovations.  This is used to explain why it took so long for them
> to develop overall.  Compare Solomani innovation rate, and it looks
> like the Vilani are almost standing still.
>
> You're other questions have whatever answers you want.
> There is nothing officially holding anyone back.  There is just an
> economic disincentive to invest in innovation in the 3I.  Its
> not so strong that it can't be overcome, but it slows things down
> because the chances of getting rich by pouring all your resources
> into research is less than say, modern day Terra, because you
> can't build upon the inventions of others and still hope to get rich.
>
> The Darrians seem introspective to me, and not hell bent on
> getting rich through innovation.  And the Zhodani keep their
> Proles down where they belong.  They are the proletariat after all.
>
> (Why has it taken me so long to realize the Prole is short for
> Proletariat?  Compartmentalized mind, I guess.  Hmmm,
> anyone want to speculate on the effect of a Zhodani revolution?
> Mwahaha.)
>
> - --
> Bloo
> Resounding Technology
> Creators of RogerWilco
> http://www.resounding.com/
>


- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:32:36 -0700
From: "Derek Stanley" <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #537

> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:01:01 +0000
> From: "Lee Cooke" <ljrcooke@stayfree.co.uk>
> Subject: Clipper Deckplans
>
> Hi All
>
> Could somone tell me of a website where i can get Deckplans for a
> RC Clipper from TNE.
>
> Thanks
> Lee
> ljrcooke@stayfree.co.uk

There isn't one.  Nick Bradbeer is appently working on some.  Rumor has it
that Loren has an incomplete set but can't release them due to his agreement
with SJG.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:51:41 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: low tech melee weapons
> Date: Friday, 30 April, 1999 2:56 PM
> 
> At 10:35 AM 4/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> > OTOH, powered Battle Dress is going to still be a major improvement for
> the infantryman. 
[snip]
> 
> Until the batteries die.  BD is going to be hampered by relatively low
> endurance.  Makes it ideal for the first wave/assault package, but that
and
> the expence of equipping all your troops with BD will result in it being
> used only be a small fraction of the troops.

I don't see endurance as a significant issue.  GT figures a suit of
battledress will have an endurance of 70-100 hours on a charge, MT is even
more generous (up to 20 days, depending on TL and model.)  They're going to
need food and water more often than they need batteries.  For that matter, 
their support and transport vehicles all have pretty large fusion power
plants, so they can recharge suit batteries easily.  Each APC probably has
a spare battery for each trooper, they can switch every day to keep a large
reserve "in the cans." 

Now, a unit cut off from its vehicles and without resupply will be in
trouble, but not anytime soon.  Pure jump troops will only operate
independently for as long as a week (with a single spare battery if
necessary).   

Cost issues are a more plausible reason for non-powered troops, but the
advantages of battledress are so dramatic that high-TL forces will probably
be willing to pay for it.  This is especially true for interstellar forces,
where transport coasts mount up quickly.  Force multipliers like
battledress become worthwhile if you can significantly reduce the size of
the force you need to move.
 
> > I've written up an 'H-Hour' timeline for planetary assault by drop
troops. 
> 
> I'd like to see that, could you send me a copy?

At the risk of going AOL, "me too" :-)  (or post if it's not too long.)

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:58:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Surface-Based Black Globes

In a message dated 99-04-28 15:16:58 EDT, you write:

<< A black-globe equipped vessel misjumps and is precipitated out of
 jumpspace near a black hole. The vessel cannot escape the gravitational
 pull of the object, and so instead rides the accelleration curve around
 it, spiralling in, faster and faster, until at the last moment (when the
 gravitational force becomes too great) they crank up the black globe and
 go zipping off in a straight line away from the black hole! When they
 figure they have moved far enough away, they drop the globe.
 
 This would be a cool way for a research vessel to get close to a black
 hole and then escape, too.
 
 Also, if the volume within a black hole is immune to gravity, is it also
 immune to time dilation from travelling near light speed? >>

Very interesting.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:14:53 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

In a message dated 99-04-29 04:37:29 EDT, you write:

<< Di - no - saurs In Space ! >>

What about Nivin's Saurans?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:23:07 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 

In a message dated 99-04-29 08:07:41 EDT, you write:

<< (A "fun" thing to roll in your Navy character's advanced character
  generation - spend a year as a popsicle - no promotion, no skill. :-) >>

Cool, wouln't you also have to check to see if the char dies in cryo.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:46:48 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Roadshow (was Re: Thanks for the latest ObTravs)

In a message dated 99-04-29 12:05:31 EDT, you write:

<< I am looking for more players, so far we are down to only 2 as some
 players had to bail due to RL.
 We play Thursday nights at starting between 8:30-9 pm eastern.
 Check out the #traveller website http://home.att.net/~websuz/
 or http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/ircgame/ for more information. >>

Is it for T4?  If so give me a few days to get it, it seems like RL kills 
more PCs that the best weapons.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:55:21 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

In a message dated 4/30/99 5:47:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, roc@kewl.com.au 
writes:

<< Many of us never turned back to CT (I persisted as long as I could, but my
 players couldn't handle the new complications) and the group eventually
 folded and turned to AD&D mainly.  

<<snip>>
 
 I am an award winning AD&D'er myself (several years running), but I know
 what game I'd rather play.  And since finding this list, though I have not
 asked nor hinted, the young bloke I gave my stuff to may just give it back
 so I can consider a CT campaign once again  :^)
 
 --  The Roc
  >>
Interestingly, I heard the same lament in Australia about the lack of 
interest in S1889 when it was in production. Is/was there an anti GDW bias in 
Australia?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:03:14 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Golf (with an Ob Trav)

In a message dated 99-04-30 05:52:43 EDT, you write:

<< (1)  I'm sure that golf will sweep through the Ziru Sirka during the
 latter part of the Interstellar Wars and the beginning of the Rule of
 Man.  It's just too perfect a game for the Vilani.  By the time of the
 founding of the Third Imperium, many Vilani will believe that it is
 actually a Vilani game that has become popular among the Solomani.
 
 (2)  X-Files variant:  Golf is a Vilani game.  A Vilani ship crashed off
 the Orkney Islands in Pictish times.  The survivors were able to salvage
 their golf clubs and manual.  After founding the Pictish culture and
 making the bagpipe a more efficient weapon, they settled down to relax
 and taught the Scots how to play golf.   >>

I just saw something on THC, it seems a number of technolgical advancements 
disapeared in aciant times, combine that with pictogrames of space suits one 
can put the peaces togeather in some interesting ideas...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:14:18 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Station

In a message dated 99-04-30 07:25:43 EDT, you write:

<< Dig out whatever ship design system you have and design modules as if
 they were sections of a ship. You don't need a drive, but at least a
 bit of power and life support several hours to a day worth. And
 airlocks or at least air-tight hatches where they connect to other
 modules. You'll also want some "engineering" modules that contain
 nothing but power or life support, or sensors, along with the required
 controls. 
 
 The modules are best transported by using a ship that normally handles
 some sort of small craft or other ship about the same size.
 
 So, for example, you could use the old "modular cutter" design. But I
 think the best bet would be an old, retired or about to be retired
 battle rider carrier (likely TL-10). That lets the modules be the size
 of a battlerider, which is a lot more convenient than the smaller sizes
 other ships can carry.  >>

Okay, that makes sence.  How can I get the SSDS to work, I keep running out 
of mass?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:25:01 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In a message dated 4/30/99 5:34:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
nimrod@santech.com writes:

<< can *almost* hear SgtMajor Calvin addressing the troups on Tanith now....
 >:)
 >
 >BobS
 
 With Christian Johnny standing in the background.
 
 (Actually in the book it was on Hadley, right after the Senate turned out 
 the 42nd) >>

Can someone please list all the titles to the Falkenburg series on private E 
mail? I want to collect them all...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:28:42 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

In a message dated 99-04-29 16:31:59 EDT, you write:

<< Here's the T4 High Guard conversion I did.
 
 http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/highgard.htm
 
 Notes:
  - The email at the bottom is dead.
  - Its designed to be compatible with the T4.1/T5 beta material that
 I have seen, so that Liason skill appears and that the Ranks don't
 perfectly match is intended. >>

Well, it seems like something that would work, I'll let you know more once I 
get T4.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:34:43 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...

In a message dated 4/30/99 7:05:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, roc@kewl.com.au 
writes:

<< ObTrav:  As for "personal comfort" (errr... prostitutes -- of both sexes
 too, I'd assume), I can't see having "pleasure crew" on an Imperial warship,
 but on a Brothel Ship may be different?  Perhaps Imperial policy is to put
 some chemicals in the crews food to (ahem) kill such natural desires short
 term?  I still see prudish ship captains that would frown upon such
 activities in the IN/IISS.  In my former TU, I allowed communal "freshers"
 on bases and vessels, similar to that in Starship Troopers, but one still
 must have natural urges raising their heads over time without some relief
 via shore leave or chemical suppression??
  >>

or just allow electronic toys, or even cohabitation. The age of sail Royal 
Navy allowed wives onboard at port to combat desertion (what do you think 
rocked those hammocks..:-) )

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:40:11 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Background hook: New starport

In a message dated 99-04-30 07:09:06 EDT, you write:

<< I meant "work for a manned vehicle". :-) >>

Oh, in that case: Splat!
- -Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #540
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 541



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Re: [Entropic Worlds] What do you need from me?
Re: Silly adventure idea
Re: [Entropic Worlds] PLEASE DON'T READ MY OTHER POST!
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: FW: Thanks for the latest ObTravs
Re: Vilani expansion
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Vilani expansion
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 
Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs
Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)
Re: T4 stuff
World Builder Deluxe Version 4.2
Subsector List...
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Re: Copyright
Re: Traveller fanzines
Re: Copyright

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:41:00 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

In a message dated 4/30/99 7:57:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< I don't see endurance as a significant issue.  GT figures a suit of
 battledress will have an endurance of 70-100 hours on a charge, MT is even
 more generous (up to 20 days, depending on TL and model.)  They're going to
 need food and water more often than they need batteries.  For that matter, 
 their support and transport vehicles all have pretty large fusion power
 plants, so they can recharge suit batteries easily.  Each APC probably has
 a spare battery for each trooper, they can switch every day to keep a large
 reserve "in the cans." 
  >>

Shame on all the ex-infantrymen on the list. The limiting factor is having to 
make doo-doo and wee-wee...:-) Seriously, I wouldn't like to be forced to 
stay in my suit, after my bio features failed/or got full...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 06:01:13 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Entropic Worlds] What do you need from me?

- -----Original Message-----
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com <SciFiFan56@aol.com>
Date: 29 April 1999 11:17
Subject: Re: [Entropic Worlds] What do you need from me?


>I am sharing this with others who may have a similar question....
>
>
>In a message dated 4/28/99 5:53:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dmoran@io.com
>writes:
>
><< I'm quite eager to start playing the Sword Worlds (Edited as a
courtesy to
>our Darrian players), but I'm a bit at a loss as to what exactly you
need

                      ^^^^^^^^
am I the sole Darrian player, or are there others? This may affect my
character choices....

not that I mind being one of several Darrians if that is the case :)

> from me. I
> *think* you need several GURPS Traveller characters, with perhaps
some
> Pocket Empires stats on the Sword Worlds?
>
> Please let me know so I can generate characters as needed.
>
> Dan
>  >>
>That's for the email Dan, yes - characters is exactly what I need
from you. I
>will be generating initial situation reports (sitreps) for each of
the
>factions/player groups this weekend. But the presence of identified
>characters will facilitate that greatly. I would like to have at
least one,
>and possibly as many as three to six. I realistically do not see
players
>effectively using more than three give or take a couple based on past
>experience with Star Trek pbems using this same format. (My
experience using
>this format is both as a player and referee. Someone else pioneered
it.)
>
>I would be very interested in player perceptions of their chosen
agency or
>faction. I am using GURPS' Behind the Claw as the primary reference
source,


just got a copy of this...

very interesting :)

>then Universal World Profiles from MegaTraveller's Encyclopedia as
well as
>the stats provided at the
><A HREF="http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/">CORE</A> website. I am
using as
>my descriptions of the actual political enities, the Classic
Traveller Alien
>books (I have them all). However I intend to purchase all the GURPS
Traveller
>materials I am so enthusiastic about what they are doing with the
Traveller
>Universe.

me too

<snip>

>But the first step is identifying for me "who" your agents of
influence are
>to be. Actual character construction is not as important as
identification at
>this point. If you are pressed for time or simply want to see more
before you
>invest time please email me with names, positions, and locations
(world
>location as a minimum) for your initial character(s).

what sort of characters are you expecting? ie, should we be thinking
of designing Fleet Admirals / Generals / Presidents etc, or
Lieutenants / Junior Diplomats / Free Traders etc, or any combination
of the two extremes and middle rankers as well?

Currently I'm designing:

'Strom Sigurdsson', male 35, an Intelligence officer (of Solomani
descent, with false Imperial and Sword World IDs produced by Darrian
Intelligence, currently undercover on Gram)

'Mihlu Nehmih', female 31, a Special Arm Naval Captain (at the secret
base, which I believe is in 0423)

'Ninuldo Balehnihlzehk', male 42, a Trader Captain (and semi-offical
spy/intelligence gatherer) currently at Sting

'Zehyrung N'dos', female 25,  an archaeologist from the University of
Zlodh, currently studying Sword Worlder warship design on Entrope

>
>I am using the shareware programs (predominately Mr. Bont's from his
Felix
>website
><A HREF="http://209.39.36.25/gurps/">The FELIX GURPS Page</A>) in
direct
>support of this game. You can attach email files with your characters
or
>transcribed copies in the email, using the GURPS CHARACTER ASSIST
(GCA) or
>GURPS CHARACTER MAKER (GCM) programs. I am also using the 101
Starships, 101
>Vehicles, etc., from the
><A HREF="http://www.bits.org.uk/">BITS (British Isles Traveller
Support)
>Homepages
></A> page also. I am generating the maps using Mr. Bont's Astrogator
program
>(from the FELIX GURPS page) and as stated earlier, the UWP data is
being
>taken from the MegaTraveller era and is featured on at the
><A HREF="http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/">CORE</A>  page.


I have trouble with Bont's Astrogator program... It keeps crashing my
PC ...

not enough memory I think :(

I'm converting Behind the Claw to Jim Vassilakos's Galactic 2.4 format
at the moment. If you'd like a copy of the sector when it's finished
let me know. I'll probably post it on my traveller web page at
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk/trav.html

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 01:04:26 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

In a message dated 99-04-30 17:08:44 EDT, you write:

<< And what happens when the offspring of the dino-colonists want regain their
 home planet - Earth? >>

They could take a bite out of the defenders.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 06:13:34 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Entropic Worlds] PLEASE DON'T READ MY OTHER POST!

I wrote...

<snip>

Ahhhhhhhrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, B*gger!

Please don't read my other post if you are in the game, or if it's too
late then *please* try to forget the details :)

Hey ho! this will teach me to check which copy of a post I'm replying
to, the one addressed to me or the one to the group....

Oh well....

Regards to the other players, and apologies to the group :)

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 01:14:34 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

At 12:25 AM 5/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/30/99 5:34:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>nimrod@santech.com writes:
>
><< can *almost* hear SgtMajor Calvin addressing the troups on Tanith now....
> >:)
> >
> >BobS
> 
> With Christian Johnny standing in the background.
> 
> (Actually in the book it was on Hadley, right after the Senate turned out 
> the 42nd) >>
>
>Can someone please list all the titles to the Falkenburg series on private E 
>mail? I want to collect them all...

While not Falkenburg per say, Pournelle did a story in War World #2 that
not only dealt with Tanith, and explained why it was important to the
Saurons, but also did, IMO, one of the finest fleet actions ever put to
paper.  He detailed the differance in command philosophy between the Empire
and the Saurons and how it tended to effect each group.

ObTrav:  I always viewed the Saurons as the role model for the Zhodani.
While the Zhos never got into the genetic superman craze, at least that we
know about, they are similar in that they are as a whole, more than similar
Imperial forces.  With the Imperial forces, you have the Mk1, Mod 0 human.
The Sauron had the genetic engineering and breeding, whereas the Zho have
the psionics.

ObTrav 2:  Anyone care to speculate on a potential meeting between the
Imperium and the Sauron?  Technology equal or better than the Imperials,
phisically superior, enhanced healing (nanotech?), focused manifest
destiny, democratic ideals (ISTR that there was speculation that the Sauron
were actually Americans who broke away from the Co-Dominium), and one major
weakness - the need for Borzoi.

ObTrav 3:  With a bit of tweaking, Traveller could be used to simulate the
Co-Dominium/1st Empire/2nd Empire/Motie Incursions.  

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 01:22:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: FW: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

In a message dated 99-04-30 09:16:20 EDT, you write:

<< Our gaming group played Twilight 2000 for a while. We thought it
 interesting that the game rules included the most thorough treatment
 of stills we'd ever seen in an RPG.
 
 Granted, you were supposed to use them to make alcohol fuel...
 
 Walt Smith >>

and I'm shure that no one EVER used them for anything else:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 01:36:24 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vilani expansion

Hi Hans,

I have to differ with you concerning this idea in the OTU.  I'm afraid that 
there is a clash in canonical sources (that never happens!).  Your info 
concerning Darrian space is correct, but, referring back to may copy of the 
Traveller Integrated Timeline, Travellers Digest #20 tells of Vilani 
settlement in the Trojan Reaches in -2074.  If you draw a line between 
Corridor and the Trojan Reaches, Five Sisters is arguably on the path of 
trave, particularly if the colonists staged through the established colony of 
Vanejen.  Yes, it's all in the misty Traveller past, but according to good 
sources it happened.  If they were making an effort to get far away from the 
Terrans, it is very likely that the Vilani would not have spent time 
exploring or lingering in what would later become Darrian space, but could 
have passed through without leaving any trace except for some unfortunates 
who couldn't keep up and got stranded on some works in the Five Sisters.  
Keep Travelling!
Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 16:15:24 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 1 May 1999 2:08
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...


>
>Interestingly, I heard the same lament in Australia about the lack of
>interest in S1889 when it was in production. Is/was there an anti GDW bias
in
>Australia?
>

Most gaming clubs in Aussie, from my memory, started as serious table top
miniature and military simulation game clubs, with the odd group in the club
branching out into RPG's until many clubs consisted mainly of RPG'ers,
different groups splintering off, etc.  Until the clubs became generic
"game" clubs, TTM's, Mil Sims, and RPG (some including any game:  Monopoly,
Scrabble, and the like also!).

Traveller was brilliant and in it's classic format, had a decent following.
Many clubs had the Europa(sp) series, not to mention the
Imperial-Traveller-like games like Imperium and Invasion Earth.  I honestly
can't say about anti-GDW, I felt they were a great game producing institute,
and I know it came as a shock to myself and nearly every gamer I know that
knew of GDW, to learn they were folding!  In SE Queensland, it was MT that
killed Traveller (my personal opinion), and I myself was not very interested
in Space1889 and it never got a great following in the clubs I was apart of.
But in wargames (only Avalon Hill rivalled them) and Traveller, they were
gaming gurus.

I miss CT...

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 01:22:41 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani expansion

At 01:36 AM 5/1/1999 -0400, Ken wrote:
<snip>
>settlement in the Trojan Reaches in -2074.  If you draw a line between
>Corridor and the Trojan Reaches, Five Sisters is arguably on the path of
>trave, particularly if the colonists staged through the established colony of
>Vanejen.  <snip>

Drawing a straight line from Corridor, passing through Deneb and going on 
to Noricum (2018 TR), you might pass through the rimward-trailing quarter 
of Trin's Veil subsector, at least 20 parsecs from the border of the Five 
Sisters subsector.  This is not by My definition of "arguably on the path 
of travel".




Jimmy Simpson
       nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
      and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                          -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:02:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #509 

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/28/99 10:14:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>jamstar@earthlink.net writes:
>
><< 'Czarist'. >>
>
>oops'; should have proofread...

'Silent' C. Or T.

Dom ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:54:11 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Thanks for the latest ObTravs

Damien Fox wrote:

> Of course I know who he is... I own all of Thompson's books, and almost
> every Doonesbury...   My favorite character of all time was ripped straight
> out of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
>
> Ob Traveller:  Who has PCs that use drugs?  I mean, aside from the medical
> and Psi-stuff?  Or all we all playing straight-arrow boy scouts?

Depends on the game man...

But I'm in the better Travelling through Chemistry.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 01:51:41 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Starships (was: Re: T4 stuff)

At 09:56 PM 4/27/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 08:48 PM 4/27/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>From your original list, I'm pretty sure they have CSC and
Starships
>>(though why you would want Starships is beyond me...).  They also
have
>
>Ok, just a question: What's wrong with the T4 Starships book?  (I
don't
>have it, and have only glanced through it briefly.  My impression
was that
>other than the art it was ok...)  
>
>Not trying to start a war, just honestly curious... 


	I won't praise or condemn SSDS; however, it's not fully compatible
with any of the other two or three T4 design systems, and it has the
usual IG level of errata. It also had little or no playtesting (being
written in one week on the GDW-Beta list ...)

	The designs bite. Most of the designs submitted by beta list members
were mangled and changed without reason. There is at least one ship
that carries more fuel than the ship actually displaces. The
deckplans are low quality.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 00:44:40 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

At 10:43 AM 4/27/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi, I'm new to the list and new to Traveller (an understatement,
really) and 
>I'm looking for T4, FF&S, CSC, and Starships (sort of), does anyone
know 

	Look for Starships in your nearest midden-heap ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 11:09:26 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe Version 4.2

Version 4.2 of WBD has been released. The new version addresses several bugs
in the program and introduces several improved features, namely:-

1) The Rice Paper display has been improved. It now provides a narrative on
the world details.

2) When HTML output is selected System Details are now saved in HTML file
format with an enhanced layout.

3) When HTML output is selected Temperature Worksheets and Encounter Tables
are now in HTML.

V4.2 can be downloaded from my website at the usual address:-

http://www.cozmos-cosmos.com/~sferris/Traveller_World_Builder_Deluxe.zip

I have received several E-mails from people who have had trouble downloading
the file from the above site. I will be providing an additional link to the
software in the near future which will hopefully resolve the problems some
people have been having.

This will be the last release of WBD for some time. I am about to start work
on routines that will allow WBD to calculate full world details for
satellites and I expect this to take me some time.

Thank you all for your support, helpful comments and suggestions, and kind
words about the program.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 08:05:06 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Subsector List...

   
If anyone here has a copy of the Subsector List, I'd be 
pleased if they could 1) email it to me 2) post it on
a webpage, maybe HIWG?

Thanks,
  Alvin Plummer

FYI: I found the Sector list at http://stats.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/General/Sector.List.txt


- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have enough trouble keeping the Ten Commandments,  I don't need
to add an eleventh one ... and I fully intend to go home tonight 
and smoke a cigar to the glory of God."          
                                               Charles H. Spurgeon
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 07:03:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

At 01:14 AM 5/1/99 -0400, you wrote:

>While not Falkenburg per say, Pournelle did a story in War World #2 that
>not only dealt with Tanith, and explained why it was important to the
>Saurons, but also did, IMO, one of the finest fleet actions ever put to
>paper.  He detailed the differance in command philosophy between the Empire
>and the Saurons and how it tended to effect each group.

Larry Niven did an excellent story about Tanith and the Saurons called
_Brenda_.  Niven claims he can't write war stories, but he writes around
them pretty well.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 07:14:28
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

At 10:51 PM 4/30/99 -0400, you wrote:

>I don't see endurance as a significant issue.  GT figures a suit of
>battledress will have an endurance of 70-100 hours on a charge, MT is even
>more generous (up to 20 days, depending on TL and model.)  They're going to
>need food and water more often than they need batteries.  For that matter, 
>their support and transport vehicles all have pretty large fusion power
>plants, so they can recharge suit batteries easily.  Each APC probably has
>a spare battery for each trooper, they can switch every day to keep a large
>reserve "in the cans." 

The other side of endurance is trooper fatigue.  I was lucky enough to take
part in an experiment in how long infantry could stand being in MOPP 4
chemical warfare gear.  The longest was 70 hours.  Most of us went nuts
within a day.  To put it simply, you can't get to an itch, blow your nose,
rub a sore muscle, etc., in a suit of battledress.  Individual effcienicy
is going to plummet the longer the trooper stays in the can.  I guarntee
that no matter how you fiddle, there will be something in that suit that
will be irratating as hell after about 12 hours.

>Now, a unit cut off from its vehicles and without resupply will be in
>trouble, but not anytime soon.  Pure jump troops will only operate
>independently for as long as a week (with a single spare battery if
>necessary). 

Which make the tactic for fighting BD equipped troopers clear.  Hide, then
zap their follow on forces.  Pop HE rounds at them.. it won't penetrate the
suit, but it might wreck the equipment they're carrying.  

>Cost issues are a more plausible reason for non-powered troops, but the
>advantages of battledress are so dramatic that high-TL forces will probably
>be willing to pay for it.  This is especially true for interstellar forces,
>where transport coasts mount up quickly.  Force multipliers like
>battledress become worthwhile if you can significantly reduce the size of
>the force you need to move.

Battledress is a force multiplier, but it has significant drawbacks.  I've
designed a couple of cheap GURPS weapons, similar to LAW rockets, that can
reliably penetrate up to 1400 pts or armor, and can be fielded at a ratio
of 200 weapons to each suit of battledress.  In this way, a suit of
battledress is the modern extension of the tank.. very dangerous, but
vulnerable to a patient, well trained enemy.

- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 07:15:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

At 12:41 AM 5/1/99 EDT, you wrote:

>Shame on all the ex-infantrymen on the list. The limiting factor is having
>to make doo-doo and wee-wee...:-) Seriously, I wouldn't like to be forced to 
>stay in my suit, after my bio features failed/or got full...

You'd never be a sniper, my lad...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 00:22:40 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Copyright

G'day all,

On 29/4/99 Ewan Quibell spake thusly :

>You mean like the burger stand in Sydney which was called "Burger King", so
>when BK went down under they had to call it Hungery Jacks ?
>
>Ewan

Yeah, that's the one.  Although, you can go to a BK at Tullamarine Airport
(Melbourne) as it's considered "federal ground" or some such.

Maybe a similar thing would apply to starports ?

Dave H

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 00:23:20 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller fanzines

G'day all,

On 1/5/99, The Roc spake thus :

>I can't say how well GT is faring, I know the GURPS system is pretty strong
>here, we can only hope.  I also can't speak for the rest of Australia
>either, but I know that all of the CON booklets I have read over the last
>umpteen years feature NO Traveller sessions at all, ....

Seems to be selling in Melbourne.  From what I gather, GURPS seems to mosey
on out the door rather than fly out, but it sells.  Hopefully, the GT stuff
will generate some interest from a new crop of players.  Conquest '99
featured a Traveller game (CT I think) of one session, so that may also act
as a catalyst.  One hopes ...

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 00:23:54 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Copyright

G'day all,

On 29/4/99 Steve Daniels wrote :

>I'm sorry but I can't follow you with the assumption.
>The question is whether there even is Imperial Copyright.
>If you agree that there is, then its superior to the copyright
>laws of all member worlds.  Just as the Berne Treaty on
>Copyrights applies to the US, and most of the world,
>regardless of what the US laws actually say.

Fair cop.

>If there is no Imperial Copyright, then perhaps you can
>copyright on each world, assuming they have a law
>level and a government that supports copyright.

I tend to assume that there is not.  Per the "You rule the dirt, we rule
the ether" argument used by the 3I.

>And "Astroburger" wouldn't be copyrightable.
>Its a trademark, i.e, it identifies the source of the
>good.  Copyrights apply to original works
>of authorship, i.e, expression.  Trademarks and
>copyrights are not the same things, regardless of
>how often US federal judges confuse the theories
>of the two.

Sorry.  Confusing registration of business names and trademarks as opposed
to copyrighting ideas and concepts.  Unfortunately law and business don't
often fall within a Geology degree ..... 

8-P

I would imagine that this sort of thing would be fairly well spelt-out in
3I legislation and that it would keep many lawyers employed in
copyright/trademark disputes all across the Imperium.

Dave H

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #541
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 542



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fleets
Re: [Entropic Worlds] What do you need from me?
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe
Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Fleets
RE: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...
Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 
Re: Fuel Stations
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities
Re: Uses for "Low-tech" Weapons
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Re: Vilani expansion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 00:30:50 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fleets

Evnin' all,

On 1/5/99, Steve Charlton said thus :

>In my campaign, I refer to the subsector entities as Groups, and the sector
>entity as a Fleet.  The Fleet is made up of the Groups from the subsectors,
>plus some directly-attached units.  The Reserve Groups can be used with
>Colonial units to form a Reserve Fleet, or be used to reinforce a regular
>Fleet.  In most cases, planetary squadrons (colonial units) would either
>combine with Reserve forces to form a Reserve Fleet, or would operate in ad
>hoc Patrol Groups in their home subsectors, patrolling for commerce raiders
>and protecting convoys.  I made this distinction becuase I figured many of
>the 'colonial squadrons' would tend to be lighter patrol-type vessels, or
>antiquated larger ships retired from the Imperial Navy.

Just a general sort of thought thing, would colonial/planetary fleets need
jump capability ?  There may be something covered in canon somewhere about
it .... ?  If they are set up as an auxiliary force for the Imperium, then
yes, I could see the need, but otherwise, yer traditional fleet to protect
the system would probably not need it.  Thoughts, sophonts ?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 10:33:26 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Entropic Worlds] What do you need from me?

In a message dated 5/1/99 1:04:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk writes:

<< Strom Sigurdsson', male 35, an Intelligence officer (of Solomani
 descent, with false Imperial and Sword World IDs produced by Darrian
 Intelligence, currently undercover on Gram)
 
 'Mihlu Nehmih', female 31, a Special Arm Naval Captain (at the secret
 base, which I believe is in 0423)
 
 'Ninuldo Balehnihlzehk', male 42, a Trader Captain (and semi-offical
 spy/intelligence gatherer) currently at Sting
 
 'Zehyrung N'dos', female 25,  an archaeologist from the University of
 Zlodh, currently studying Sword Worlder warship design on Entrope
  >>

These are exactly what I needed from you. As to your level of character 
placement, that is entirely up to you and of course directly affects the type 
of campaign you will play. 

As to the other Darrian players, two others besides yourself have expressed 
an interest, but as with all things participation is much different that 
expressed interest. But there will always be a possiblity of addition players 
within a faction with the format I am using. :) 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 10:45:21 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In a message dated 4/30/99 8:34:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
nimrod@santech.com writes:

<< 
 (Actually in the book it was on Hadley, right after the Senate turned out 
 the 42nd) >>
Really? I thought it was on Tanith, when JCF was showing  off the troups to 
Banister...time to break out Falkenbergs Legion again...
OBTrav...I wonder if a Trav senario could be made with Pournelle material?...

BobS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:18:49 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions

>Only thing I can think of is it might be useful to use an appendix,
>similar to the one in 101 Starships, that shows the details on a
>ship's creation so that you can see it matches the rules.

I'd be inclined to leave this out, as it takes up a _lot_ of space. I only
included the spreadsheets in 101 Starships because (a) I wanted people to
be able double-check my designs, as I'm not an expert ship designer, and
(b) as it is a free product (but copyrighted, not public domain) no one
could complain that their money was wasted on useless information. After
all, you don't have to print the spreadsheets. I didn't.

The spreadsheets would make a nice Pyramid article, though.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 10:52:36 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

>The other problem is that the police are not technically obligated to respond
>to your distress call. They usually do, but the response time in outlying
>parts of the county here is about 15-20 minutes  (The sheriff's department
>has one deputy for the western half of the county and one for the eastern
>half). The fact that everyone assumes every farmhouse has at least one
>shotgun in it does keep most evil doers from just walking up and kicking in
>the door.
>
>Marc Miller

Oddly enough, OPP response time in most of rural Ontario is about the same,
if not a bit longer, and gun owners are in a minority. Yet we don't have a
problem with people kicking in the doors of farmhouses.

In fact, with gun control stricter than any in the US, we have a tenth the
murder rate (on a per capita basis). Taken at face value (like the chap who
argued that states with gun control were more violent to 'prove' why guns
were necessary) this argues that gun control works.  Given that Canada and
America have fairly different cultures, however, I would be surprised if
the presence or absence of guns was the major factor, just as I suspect
that differing levels of violent crime in US states can be better explained
by sociological and economic differences than by the presence/absence of
firearms.

I view gun control as a _response_ to violent crime, not the cause of it.
If everyone walked around carrying loaded AK-47s, and yet no one was ever
shot with one, then no one would even think that AK-47s needed controlling.
Whether it is an appropriate response seems to be, for many people on the
TML, a matter of almost religious faith.  Personally, I see no problem with
responsible individuals owning guns, just as I see no problem with denying
irresponsible individuals access (in the same way that I believe that not
everyone should be allowed to drive).

Quite frankly, we've been around this whole thing time and again. Could we
switch the topic to, maybe, the causes of violent societies?

Why, for example, do the murder rates in New York and Paris differ so much?
ObTrav: law level/CR denotes the level of legal restriction. We have no
rating for how much criminal activity is actually present on a world, which
seems to leave it up to the referee. Here on Earth, we have models for low
law/low crime, low law/high crime, high law/high crime, and high law/low
crime.  I would generalize that, as population density increases, violence
tends to rise, and this may trigger higher legal restrictions. OTOH, I
haven't studied the issue in any great depth. What real-world examples can
we mine for goo Traveller cultural models?

Why was the Klondike so safe during the Gold Rush, compared to the American
side of the border?  (Steele banned gambling, guns, and (I believe) hard
liquor. Was it the absence of these items? The absence of people who
refused to go where they couldn't get these items? The presence of the
Mounties?  Other cultural factors?)  ObTrav: the Klondike is an alternate
model for a mining boom.

The Netherlands, with a policy of decriminalizing drugs, has nowhere near
the problem with drug-related crime that other countries have. What does
this say about 'the war on drugs'?  Did Prohibition work?  ObTrav: Could
this explain why the Imperium bans very few items?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:33:55 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

>Les_Howie@keane.com wrote:
>> That map was actually one of the main attractions for me back when I ran
>> traveller.  I would cut the maps out and tape them into globes so the
>>players
>> could get a "from space" look at the planet they were arriving at.  Gave
>>it a
>> nice feel.
>
>I have to do this!  I think I'm going to run down to the printers,
>make some color copies on cardstock and do that.
>
>Thanks for posting this idea.
>
>--
>Bloo

Then here's another trick for you.

If you make the size of each map proportional to the size of the world,
players get a better idea of how big the world really is. I did this by
making the number of hexes along the side of a triangle the same as the
world's size digit, which makes each hex about 1000km.

Print out a map of Earth to the same scale, and players have a much better
idea how large a size 10 world is (or how small a size 1 rock is).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:39:29 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)

>And no, I am not anti-gun, but I am "anti-arming-idiots-freely-with-guns,"
>but one man's idiot is another man's good friend... so how can it be done?
>
>--  The Roc

Make possession of a deadly weapon de jure proof of intent to use deadly force.

If deadly force was justified, you are legally in the clear. This would,
however, scotch any "but I only intended to scare her" defenses, and raise
the charge from manslaughter to murder.


ObTrav: This is how I rule on firefights in starports, IMTU.  But as most
of my players travel unarmed, this has never actually happened to a player.
(Couple of NPCs got nailed once.)

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, and make no claims as to the implications or
constitutionalness (if that's a word) of my suggestion.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:26:19 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

>Awareness of crime has increased greatly as well. Some things that are
>crimes today just didn't get the press or were paid no attention to.

True. But in Britain at least the murder rate has been dropping, which
means that if many murders went undetected before it has _really_ been
dropping.

The same is true (on a per capita basis) for Toronto; you actually are less
likely to be murdered here than in the 1950s, but most people think that it
has gotten more dangerous.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 10:05:58 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

RnLschaefr@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 4/30/99 8:34:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> nimrod@santech.com writes:
> 
> <<
>  (Actually in the book it was on Hadley, right after the Senate turned out
>  the 42nd) >>
> Really? I thought it was on Tanith, when JCF was showing  off the troups to
> Banister...time to break out Falkenbergs Legion again...

It was on Hadley.  If you recall, Sergeant Major Calvin ended his
address with the announcement that there would be an extra wine ration
for all, and that combat veterans would also receive a brandy ration. 
(This was before the 42d troops revealed themselves as such.)  Vice
President Ernie Bradford was the politician viewing the scene.

> OBTrav...I wonder if a Trav senario could be made with Pournelle material?...

Of course.  Admittedly, if you want to go whole-hog CoDominium setting,
you probably should use FF&S (the TNE version) for ship designs, since
that book (from what I've heard) has the best rules for non-Jump drives
(for instance, the Alderson drives used by CoDo ships).  Either that, or
GURPS: Space.

I'd set the CoDominium at about TL-9, or TL-10 at most.  (GTL-9)

> 
> BobS

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 10:21:10 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fleets

David Healey wrote:
> 
> Evnin' all,
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Just a general sort of thought thing, would colonial/planetary fleets need
> jump capability ?  There may be something covered in canon somewhere about
> it .... ?  If they are set up as an auxiliary force for the Imperium, then
> yes, I could see the need, but otherwise, yer traditional fleet to protect
> the system would probably not need it.  Thoughts, sophonts ?

I can think of a few reasons why ships in a planetary navy would have
jump capability:

1.  Annual maintenance.  For a relatively low-tech world, or one with a
low-quality starport, the ships may need to go outsystem for annual
maintenance.  The ability to jump there might make things easier.

2.  Surplus ships.  Planetary navies may contain ships that are surplus
to current Imperial/subsector fleet needs.  Why rip the jump drives out?

3.  Prestige.  Just as many smaller navies today maintain a token
"blue-water" force, even when national maritime strategy focuses on
littoral operations (for what does Argentina really _need_ an aircraft
carrier?), so planetary navies would want at least some jump-capable
ships, to go with their non-jumping boats.

4.  Pursuit capability.  If a pirate or commerce raider jumps outsystem,
the ability to pursue may be valuable.

> 
> Dave

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 11:03:36 -0500 
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

On Friday, 30 April 1999 15:39, Robert Prior
[SMTP:robert_prior@sympatico.ca] wrote:
> >And no, I am not anti-gun, but I am "anti-arming-idiots-freely-with-
> >guns,"
> >but one man's idiot is another man's good friend... so how can it be
> >done?
> >
> >--  The Roc
> 
> Make possession of a deadly weapon de jure proof of intent to use deadly
> force.

Which is, perhaps, the most intrusive idea I have ever ran across.  Define
deadly weapon.  How do you judge intent?  Swords and knifes are 'deadly
weapons', but we keep them in our kitchens without thought.

> If deadly force was justified, you are legally in the clear. 

Except if you merely own the instrument and *never* use it on anyone, you
are still as guilty (in the legal sense) as someone who just committed a
murder.

No harm, no foul.

> ObTrav: This is how I rule on firefights in starports, IMTU.  But as
> most
> of my players travel unarmed, this has never actually happened to a
> player.

Most of my players go unarmed, and in two campaigns there have been a total
of three firefights, with maybe 5 shots fired total.


 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 09:18:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...

On Sat, 1 May 1999, The Roc wrote:

> ObTrav:  As for "personal comfort" (errr... prostitutes -- of both sexes
> too, I'd assume), I can't see having "pleasure crew" on an Imperial warship,
> but on a Brothel Ship may be different?  Perhaps Imperial policy is to put
> some chemicals in the crews food to (ahem) kill such natural desires short
> term?  I still see prudish ship captains that would frown upon such
> activities in the IN/IISS.

Unless such things have become a 'patriotic duty' and these people are
seen as serving a vital function by keeping the men and women of the
Imperial Services satisfied in their duties. Could even be a sort of
Auxilary Corps to the regular services (registered and screened) which
would help prevent nefarious agents of foreign powers from gaining access
to Imperial Officers/Crew through the use of seduction.

Depends on how the culture of the Imperium (not of any one world) views
sex. I would go for this more progressive model, and say the Imperium
recognizes that people want/need to have satisfying sexual relations in
their lives, and will function at a lower level after some period of being
denied this. Of course it does mean you have to make sure you have the
right mix of races on your brothel ship for visiting a particular fleet...

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 09:23:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 

On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> << (A "fun" thing to roll in your Navy character's advanced character
>   generation - spend a year as a popsicle - no promotion, no skill. :-) >>
> 
> Cool, wouln't you also have to check to see if the char dies in cryo.

Nope. Traditionally only the team leader dies in cryo  ;)

Brannon (trying to keep his sci-fi RPG mailing lists straight)

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 08:56:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Stations

In mail you write:

>>BTW, I don't *think* anyone would be this crazy, but setting of a nuke
>>in the middle of a huge tank of LH2 *would* cause some of the hydrogen
>>to fuse. Enough to make a *big* increase in yield, even though you'd be
>>wasting most of it.
>
> What do you mean by "big"? Also, IIRC, H-->He fusion requires pressure as
> well as high-velocity particles.  Without containment, it would be my guess
> that little energy benefit would result, as the EMR front would be
> dispersing the H faster than optimal for fusion.

I'm figuring on inertial confinement. If you detonate in the middle of
a (say) 100 meter diameter tank, the shock wave itself will provide a
*lot* of compression. Line the tank with the right materials and you'll
get enough X-ray flux reflected back to help matters.

> Another note, several people have mentioned that hydrogen snowballs would be
> easy to keep in intersteller space.  Since apperently most nebulae consist
> of GASEOUS H, this supposition might not be true.

Maybe, maybe not. Those nebulae are *hard vacuum* by earthly standards.
So it's not like it's *easy* for the scattered atoms to condense. 

> At the very least, shade
> from cosmic rays would be necessary, and if my astrophysics are correct,
> individual photons striking the snowball would impart enough energy to casue
> individual molecules to sublimate- thus eventually causing the whole thing
> to disappear.  I am not sure, however, how long this would take.

I figure it'd take a lot longer than will matter for a station that is
being used. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 09:03:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities

In mail you write:

> ObTrav: given the data-storage capabilities of the high TLs in Traveller,
> a capital Navy ship should have stored the equivalent of a branch of a=20
> big-city public library combined with a Blockbuster Video outlet...
> even a small scout/courier would have a decent selection of films,
> music, and reading material to keep the crew amused during a Jump.

For that matter, given the capacity of things like fiber optics, and
how widespread data cables would be on a ship, I expect that even in
ships using "bunkroom" type quarters, every bunk could have a tap into
a data cable (either in a band not used by the important stuff or via
use of "backup" fibers). This would give you access to the ship's
video/audio/data library. 

It wouldn't take much bandwidth at all to provide each sailor with the
equivalent of a personalized radio station and tv lineup. Just select a
playlist (for both music and video) or set up for "random" selections
that meet certain criteria. 

You'd need a little smarts in the "console" (combo of screen,
headphones and keyboard). But it'd be less than the average current PC.
Which means it'd cost pennies by then. All the "configuration" goes
into the console. It just sends requests to the central library. Then
the album, video, or book is downloaded to it. 

If bandwidth is scarce, you might have to "put up with" things like
Real Audio in realtime on only a few channels. Or have to resort to
what you've got stored in your personal datapack ("How can I survive?
I've only got a couple of terabytes of entertainment on file!" :-)

You want *real* fun, consider the kind of interactive computer games
that a system like this allows. Especially the ones that are designs as
"training modules" for real activities...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 09:15:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Uses for "Low-tech" Weapons

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In one of the Honor Harrington books, we discover that she learned to
>> shoot a 45 pistol from an uncle in the SCA (which by that time had
>> moved the "cutoff" data from 1600 to sometime after the 20th century).
>> This comes as a rude shock to some would be assassins. And later, it
>> proves fatal to a couple of duellists.
>
> I would also look at Heinlein's _Beyond This Horizon_, in which the
> protagonist, Hamilton Felix, has an M1911A1 custom-made for him.  (In
> his society, all gentlemen are assumed to be armed [usually with some
> variation on a beam laser pistol], unless they are wearing "peace
> brassards."  Brassarded men are generally assumed to be cowards. 
> Duelling is openly accepted.)  Hamilton Felix discovers, quite
> inadvertently, that the effects of shooting someone with a .45 cal
> pistol (the noise, the blood, etc.) have quite a psychological impact on
> would-be challengers, when compared to burning someone down neatly and
> quietly with a beam weapon.

Honor's replica 1911A1 has a similar effect on some assasins. It's not
so much the damage it causes. It's the *noise*.

When you get right down to it, for people used to "quiet" energy
weapons, a 45 might as well be a SWAT flash/stun grenade. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 09:26:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In mail you write:

> At 07:51 PM 4/30/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>> >>>RECITATION OF THE BATTLE OF CAMERONE <<<
>>
>>I can *almost* hear SgtMajor Calvin addressing the troups on Tanith now....
>>:)
>>
>>BobS
>
> With Christian Johnny standing in the background.
>
> (Actually in the book it was on Hadley, right after the Senate turned out 
> the 42nd)

Falkenberg came entirely too close to re-enacting that battle in his
first combat tour. I forget the name of the planet, but he and group of
menn (a company?) held a chokepoint on a river valley while the rest of
the CoDominium forces drove the rebel forces against them.

Falkenberg *definitely* belongs in Traveller. So does his "Legion". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 14:07:36 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

At 10:51 PM 4/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I don't see endurance as a significant issue.  GT figures a suit of
>battledress will have an endurance of 70-100 hours on a charge, MT is even

Well, the (terrible IMHO) Battledress in Star Mercs runs off an NPU, and
thus has a virtually unlimited endurance (Something on the order of years).
 There is canonical precedent for this: in T4 IA Battledress made in the 3I
run off Fusion+.  I've handwaved IMTU that Fusion+ can be represented
adequately by GT NPUs, so I have a (more sane) NPU powered Battledress
that's standard in my world.  You can see the stats on my web site.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 14:12:07 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

At 12:41 AM 5/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Shame on all the ex-infantrymen on the list. The limiting factor is having to 
>make doo-doo and wee-wee...:-) Seriously, I wouldn't like to be forced to 
>stay in my suit, after my bio features failed/or got full...

At least in GT, by GTL12 you can build a full life system into a
battledress.  I don't know if that's canonical or not though...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 13:13:29 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...

At 12:34 AM 5/1/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/30/99 7:05:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, roc@kewl.com.au 
>writes:
>
><< ObTrav:  As for "personal comfort" (errr... prostitutes -- of both sexes
> too, I'd assume), I can't see having "pleasure crew" on an Imperial warship,
> but on a Brothel Ship may be different?  Perhaps Imperial policy is to put
> some chemicals in the crews food to (ahem) kill such natural desires short
> term?  I still see prudish ship captains that would frown upon such
> activities in the IN/IISS.  In my former TU, I allowed communal "freshers"
> on bases and vessels, similar to that in Starship Troopers, but one still
> must have natural urges raising their heads over time without some relief
> via shore leave or chemical suppression??
>  >>
>
>or just allow electronic toys, or even cohabitation. The age of sail Royal 
>Navy allowed wives onboard at port to combat desertion (what do you think 
>rocked those hammocks..:-) )
>
>

IIRC, it wasn't uncommon for the wives to 'forget' to leave the ship before
it left port. The phrase "son of a gun" is orginally supposed to be anyone
born on the gun deck (the gun crews sleep next to the cannons) of a ship of
the line. This once (being born) actually happened once in the middle of a
battle.

Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 14:19:51 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

At 07:14 AM 5/1/99 +0000, you wrote:
>The other side of endurance is trooper fatigue.  I was lucky enough to take
>part in an experiment in how long infantry could stand being in MOPP 4
>chemical warfare gear.  The longest was 70 hours.  Most of us went nuts
>within a day.  To put it simply, you can't get to an itch, blow your nose,
>rub a sore muscle, etc., in a suit of battledress.  Individual effcienicy
>is going to plummet the longer the trooper stays in the can.  I guarntee
>that no matter how you fiddle, there will be something in that suit that
>will be irratating as hell after about 12 hours.

Well, this is TTL15/GTL12 we are talking about... Maybe by then they solved
these problems... (hmm, automated neural interface scratching devices....
Need the neural interface to get just the right spot...)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 21:06:26 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vilani expansion

Ken Roney writes:

>I'm afraid that there is a clash in canonical sources (that never happens!).

It happens, but it didn't happen in this case.

>Your info concerning Darrian space is correct, but, referring back to my
>copy of the Traveller Integrated Timeline, Travellers Digest #20 tells of
>Vilani settlement in the Trojan Reaches in -2074.

And the same source tells of multiple settlements in Trojan Reach and Reft
between -2300 and -1700. No mention of Spinward Marches anywhere.

>If you draw a line between Corridor and the Trojan Reaches, Five Sisters is
>arguably on the path of travel, particularly if the colonists staged through
>the established colony of Vanejen.

Which there's absolutely no reason to suppose they did.

>If they were making an effort to get far away from the Terrans, it is very
>likely that the Vilani would not have spent time exploring or lingering in
>what would later become Darrian space, but could have passed through without
>leaving any trace except for some unfortunates who couldn't keep up and got
>stranded on some works in the Five Sisters.  

Sure, but the reference in _Darrians_ dosen't speak of what traces the Itzin
fleet found, it speaks of how conditions were at the time the Itzin fleet
reached the Spinward Marches, that is in -1513.

Now, I'm all for changing canon when two canonical sources absolutely cannot
both be right, but when there is a possible way to reconcile them, I believe
in going with that way. In this case the two references don't conflict. One
says that some Vilani settled in Trojan Reach and Reft, the other says that
no Vilani settlements (except Vanejen) existed in -1513. Where's the
conflict?

And Jimmy Simpson writes:

><snip>
>>settlement in the Trojan Reaches in -2074.  If you draw a line between
>>Corridor and the Trojan Reaches, Five Sisters is arguably on the path of
>>trave, particularly if the colonists staged through the established colony
>of Vanejen.  <snip>
> 
>Drawing a straight line from Corridor, passing through Deneb and going on 
>to Noricum (2018 TR), you might pass through the rimward-trailing quarter 
>of Trin's Veil subsector, at least 20 parsecs from the border of the Five 
>Sisters subsector.  This is not by My definition of "arguably on the path 
>of travel".

Not to mention that such expeditions could very well have followed the
curve of the Great Rift. They certainly didn't HAVE to go through Five
Sisters.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #542
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 543



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Shipboard recreation facilities
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #542
Campaign: The Visitors Part One
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
RE: Fleets
Re: Fleets 
Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 15:33:30 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities

At 09:03 AM 5/1/99 -0800, you wrote:
>You want *real* fun, consider the kind of interactive computer games
>that a system like this allows. Especially the ones that are designs as
>"training modules" for real activities...

Or for that matter, CARPG (computer-aided RPG).  Imagine the potential
benefits of a system that not only can do all your mechanics for you, but
also allows the GM to quickly (on the fly, even) create holographic, or at
least TTL15-rendered models of what the player sees by drawing on an
enormous library of models (Which probably include some of Jesse's.....) 

For more on this, see "The Saturn Game", or "Caverns of Socrates"



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 13:36:15 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #542

>> ObTrav:  As for "personal comfort" (errr... prostitutes -- of both sexes
>> too, I'd assume), I can't see having "pleasure crew" on an Imperial
warship,
>> but on a Brothel Ship may be different?  Perhaps Imperial policy is to put
>> some chemicals in the crews food to (ahem) kill such natural desires short
>> term?  I still see prudish ship captains that would frown upon such
>> activities in the IN/IISS.
>
>Unless such things have become a 'patriotic duty' and these people are
>seen as serving a vital function by keeping the men and women of the
>Imperial Services satisfied in their duties. Could even be a sort of
>Auxilary Corps to the regular services (registered and screened) which
>would help prevent nefarious agents of foreign powers from gaining access
>to Imperial Officers/Crew through the use of seduction.

Or you could borrow a few pages from Joe Haldeman's "The Forever War",
in which (in the early period of the war), promiscuity was not only
encouraged, but pretty much made mandatory. I don't remember the logic
behind it (it's been a while since I've read it...)

>Depends on how the culture of the Imperium (not of any one world) views
>sex. I would go for this more progressive model, and say the Imperium
>recognizes that people want/need to have satisfying sexual relations in
>their lives, and will function at a lower level after some period of being
>denied this. Of course it does mean you have to make sure you have the
>right mix of races on your brothel ship for visiting a particular fleet...

I would imagine that many starports, particularly class A and B ports on
worlds with a population level of 6 or higher, would have the equivalent
of a "red light district". A crew member on leave at the starport could 
simply visit the appropriate establishment should the need arise. ("Do
you have an appointment? No? Okay, I can fit you in next Tuesday 
afternoon...") 

Then there's the approach used in many places on contemporary Earth: 
hang around the bar looking for a pick-up. (Come to think of it, that
might explain why characters always immediately head for the bar when
getting into port...)

:-D


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 15:29:48 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Campaign: The Visitors Part One

Campaign: The Visitor's,  Part One

Setting

This Scout adventure is set in Traveller: The New Era, in the Domain of Deneb, 
1134.  Archduke Norris has managed to successfully seal the borders before 
the initial AI Virus wave hit, but a second major wave has been sighted coming down
Corridor Sector.  The Second Wave, unlike the First, is composed mainly of 
naval warships rather than commercial vessels, and according to the 
fragmentary information coming from the Wilds is definitely more experienced 
in warfare.  

The Domain is still frantically trying to Virus-proof it's major worlds and communication
systems: it simply cannot afford to fight a war of attrition against Virus, as it's too
likely that some infected ship's will successfully slip Virus into the network and
snuff the last flame of interstellar civilization.  The *entire* Spinward Marches fleet
has been dispatched to Deneb Sector to hold the line with Deneb fleet against Virus,
with the subsector fleet's left to guard the Marches against Virus, the Zhodani, and the
Aslan's.

The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service is being gutted during the Virus era.  The 
Scout's are fundamentally about obtaining information from the Unknown
and spreading it around - but the unexplored regions of the Wilds are 
now infected with Virus, and gathering in information from that area is likely
to bring Virus with it.  Moreover, with the mission of the Scouts fatally undermined,
there is a desperate need for their resources as part of the newly-organized
Domain Quarrentine Service to conduct regular Virus inspections on EVERY
ship in the Domain, and watch for anything trying to cross the border. Already
there is talk of abolishing the Scouts, an act unthinkable even in the middle
of the Rebellion.
 
[Aside: The adventure is set in Foreven Sector: I have no information
in this sector, so the Referee can make it up as he pleases.]

Tien * Ziaf * Gvur * Tugi
***************************
Far  * For  * Spin   * Den
***************************
Tele * Beyo * Troj * Reft

Tien = Tienspevnekr
Aiaf = Aiafrplians
Gvur = Gvurrdon
Tugl = Tuglikki
Far = Far Frontiers
For = Foreven
Spin = Spinward Marches
Den = Deneb
Tele = Telehfaeikh
Beyo = Beyond
Troj = Trojan Reach
Reft = Reft

Tienspevnekr is part of the Zhodani Consultate's 
Adlapriants Province (also includes Zhdant sector,
home sector of the Zhodani)

Gvurrdon and Tuglikki are part of the Vargr Extents

The adventure is set in Sector L of Foreven,
called Aquamarine subsector in this post.

Byne (2625): C34274A-B, Scout Base, Client State (Imperial)
Cong Su (2626): D885845-8, No Base

********************************

Introduction
  
003-1134

"The Man's Office", Imperial Scout Base Gllagundam
Orbiting Byne, Foreven Sector


Chief Winthrop took a look around the typically slack Scouts facing him.
God, he wished he was going out with them on the last real
exploration mission he's seen in quite a long while - maybe the
last one he'll ever give.

He began with what everyone knew.  The massive saucers
that have recently arrived over Cong Su seem to be quite friendly
to the locals, if rather cool to the Imperium and openly hostile to 
the Zhodani.  They seem to be about TL 9-10, and are willing 
to exchange technological information with the Conggi in exchange for
the waste product's of that world's industries.  The world's four military
federations, edging towards a nuclear war, was quite willing to trade, 
and the local ecomony is benefiting visibily from the trade.

According to the reports from interstellar merchantmen, there was some kind of
fuss about local Conggi scientist's and biologist's, and currently
they are being attacked by the local government's and the
occassional civilian mob.  Still, they have been oftentimes arrogant
and blind to the consequences of their actions on that world, causing
much ecological and cultural destruction, so there's little symphathy
for them.  (The local's are only 20% Vilani in blood, but one portion of
Vilani culture that's very strong in all locals are the typical
attitudes to scientific research.)
 
The Visitor's themselves look quite human, and are evidentally from
a minor human race.  However, Scout research has turned up no 
government's in Far Frontiers, Foreven or The Spinward Marches 
that have such a massive (50 ~ 100) fleet of 3-4 km long, TL 9-A 
starships deployed outside of their home systems.  Not only that,
but there is NO record of this fleet passing through the neighbouring
systems to reach Cong Su.  

The Scout's are going through massive changes, so they simply
could not investigate the Visitors as much as they would
have pre-Rebellion (The Station had to wait a year before
two scout ship's were dispatched to the local base, and wait another
year until they arrived.  The crew of these ship's are the people 
attending the briefing).  So instead, what research there
is is based on rumour's and the occassional foray into Cong Su
via a trader, alway's with two Visitor escort's while outside of 
the starport.

The Chief want's answer's to three questions.  

A: How did the Visitor's, with nothing more than jump 1 drives, 
get here?  And when they leave the system, where do they go?  
NO Visitor ship has been seen outside of the Cong Su system.

B: Who are the Visitors?  No medical information is available 
on them, and no-one has been able to examine them.  We do
have samples of their written language, but no accurate
info on their spoken tongue.  

There are claims that they are really reptiles due to some televised incident, 
but TV images is easily faked (The local entertainment industry
has just reached the special effect's level of 2001: A Space Odyssey.
People tend to believe what they see, and aren't sophsticated
enough to know what can be done at higher tech levels.)
More than likely, the underground scientist's had the images faked
off-world, for televising here.

C: What are they doing on Cong Su?  It can't be just taking waste
from cities, unless there is some biological organism in the waste
that the Visitor's want.  The Scout's need real information - 
though only God know's if it will ever be put to use.  The
way the Domain is curling up into it's shell, it's unlikely 
anyone at Mora - over 50 parsec's away - would care if  
the entire Aquamarine subsector suddenly disappeared into the 
Void - as long as Virus diidn't do it.


**********************


The Scout Teams

The two Detatched Scout teams - the PC's and the 
NPC team - will have to fight and bicker over who 
does what.  Whatever the PC's choose to do, the 
NPC's want for themselves.  The NPC team is 
aggressive and violent, more like miss-assigned Marines
than Scouts (No, they don't have a FGMP and Battlearmour
in their locker, although they've been trying to get some for the last
five years...).  

Part of what aggrivate's the situation is the very low morale
in the Scouts.  They see their mission in life being snatched away,
and their entire way of life dying.  Most of the best Scout's
have already left for the Navy, with some hanging on in the IISS.
The bureaucrat's are all leaving for the Domain Quarrentine Service,
with's it's exploding budget and expanding responsibilities.
The current Scout's are full of empty shell's (both bases and men),
folk three year's from retirement, and second- and third-rate
personnel, a far cry from Strephon's IISS.

This is quite possibily the last exploration mission in all of
Foreven Sector, so the NPC's will do everything they can 
to grab as much glory for themselves as possible.  They want all
the good equipment, the best information, 100% of the limited
spending budget, and the only set of antivirus equipment in the subsector 
(still barely worth the volume it takes up, it's so primitive - but it 
has lot's of prestige, so the NPC's want it).

They will also try to get the PC's to fail, by denying them information,
giving misleading clues, or simply kicking them in the head in
their *third* bar fight.  The Chief may slap them on the wrist,
but no real sanctions will be given: he need *both* teams
desperately.

**************************

Information for the PC's to find out: 

(after they have filtered out the red herrings, false rumours,
wild goose chases, etc)

The misjump rate of starship's between Cong Su and  
one of her neighbour's has been known to occasionally 
spike up to 10% for a year or so, every fifty - to - eighty year's.   
It's known to be caused by a Coisset Fragment, a dual 
jumpspace/realspace object which may or may not prove 
the existance of other universes outside of our own.
There are theories that it could be used as a way to enhanse
jump drive performance, but no such method has been discovered.
Currently, the misjump rate is normal.

There is undisputable evidence of some slower-than-light,
probably human exploration of nine worlds of this subsector,
around 3,000 - 2,500 year's ago.  Only a few derelict probes and
small spacetrash (hand tools, etc) has been found.  It was thought
that it's one of the local minor human races here did the job, but the
design philosophy and engineering spec's don't match any of the
sector's civilizations of the time period. [This will be hotly denied
by some nations, which will insist that their ancestors did the exploration].

Some Conggi are joining the Visitor's as member's of the Visitor's
Scout Service: they are well trained, carefully selected for health and 
placed in storage in a Visitor saucer for return to their homeworld 
(which is never named, "for cultural reasons") .  It's expected that they 
may not be seen for a long time, until they return to Cong Su on retirement.

A "cancer cure" called Antivirus was recently announced by the Visitor's: 
it is a genuine TL A/B cure, although limited to only the most common and 
typical cancer's.  This cure is being provided only to pro-Visitor Conggi, 
at selected dispencing areas.

There is a Visitor Youth Movement, which act's as a workforce/paramilitary
arm of the Visitor's.  Local armed forces are rarely seen: most have been disbanded
with the permission of the local world democracy, and the military equipment
is being broken up.  Many people are openly Friends of the Visitors, and the
planetary constitution is being expanded to provide them with special 
rights and priveleges.

The Visitor's have a certain flair for slogans and propaganda, which the Conggi
find charming and truthful.  A good sample can be found on 
http://people.we.mediaone.net/hallert/friendsofthevisitors.html , slogans
include "Friendship is Universal", "I'm doing my part for the Visitors, are you?", 
"I'm a patriot of Peace.  I want to join the Youth Movement!", etc.  The enthusiasm
for the Visitor's on Cong Su is genuine.

The four military federations on Cong Su have - with Visitor guidance -
unified into a proper world democracy.  The formal world government is 
becoming more and more a blend of Visitor's and Conggi, which 
Visitor's being placed in many advisory positions.

Few mind the increasng political power of the Visitors, while many (intellectials AND 
the general population) welcome it as a way to keep the politicans on a leash.
With disarmement, the economy is booming, the inflation caused by military spending
is finally under control, and taxes are actually being decreased.  The Visitor's 
are helping out not only with new technology, but massive financial assistance and
trade as well.  Several major construction projects have been started, including upgrading
the starport (even as trade restrictions, partly anti-Virus, partly Visitor suspicion of
Imperials and Zhodani traders, is increased).

Weapon restrictions for civilians have been *loosened*, so anyone with a clean record
can purchase rifles, pistols and most small arms: the crime rate has substantually declined
in response.  If there have to be a few unusual health regulatons to please the Visitor's, 
so what?   Smoking was always a nasty habit, but now, even the ex-Weed farmers 
are now employed in something that actually benefit's society.

There is a strong emphasis placed on good health and nutrition by both the
Visitors and the local government.  Diseases and illness is sharply declining in 
the poorer areas of the world, and drought is now unheard-of.  Use of contraception,
abortion, and sterilizing operations are strongly emphasised to fight the
overpopulation problem, and are becoming socially mandatory. The birth rate has been
sharply declining since the arrival of the Visitors, but there are hint's of an imminent 
breakthrough on life-extension.  In the meantime, a massive social welfare network
is being set up, stressing hard, honest work for a fair living wage, free health care,
and a pleasent lifestyle thanks to the Visitors.

The Visitor's are rarely seen out of their orange uniform and sunglasses:
the bright light hurt's their eyes.  Still, they are uniformly cheerful, if suspicious
of non-Conggi.

********************************************

Alvin Plummer


Prov. 27:6  "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful"

********************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 14:42:05 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@bdol10.indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

>> I don't see endurance as a significant issue.  GT figures a suit
>> of battledress will have an endurance of 70-100 hours on a charge,
>> MT is even more generous (up to 20 days, depending on TL and
>> model.)  They're going to need food and water more often than
>> they need batteries.  For that matter, their support and transport
>> vehicles all have pretty large fusion power plants, so they can
>> recharge suit batteries easily.  Each APC probably has a spare
>> battery for each trooper, they can switch every day to keep a
>> large reserve "in the cans."
> 
> Shame on all the ex-infantrymen on the list. The limiting factor is
> having to make doo-doo and wee-wee...:-) Seriously, I wouldn't like
> to be forced to stay in my suit, after my bio features failed/or got
> full...

Given the technology, I figure tele-presence would be the way to go
for battle dress.  Nice comfy rooms for the operators with rotating
shifts.  That means the suit in the field is combat ready 24 hours
a day and isn't limited by human frailties such as biology or fear.

It's just a matter of replacing the trooper with servos, meson/
satellite comm gear, and a VR rig.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 15:52:23 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> The other side of endurance is trooper fatigue.  I was lucky enough to take
> part in an experiment in how long infantry could stand being in MOPP 4
> chemical warfare gear.  The longest was 70 hours.  Most of us went nuts
> within a day.  To put it simply, you can't get to an itch, blow your nose,
> rub a sore muscle, etc., in a suit of battledress.  Individual effcienicy
> is going to plummet the longer the trooper stays in the can.  I guarntee
> that no matter how you fiddle, there will be something in that suit that
> will be irratating as hell after about 12 hours.

How about a mild numbing agent to minimize skin irritation and
a nice big hunk of cheese to slow down the waster processes.
Seriously, though.  Something to prevent the itching and a drug
of some sort to minimize body waste, if not an separate drug,
then a diet for BD wearing troops designed to produce
a bare minimum of waste.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 16:12:15 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Fleets

David Healey writes:
"Just a general sort of thought thing, would colonial/planetary 
fleets need jump capability ?"

and Black ICE suggests:
"I can think of a few reasons why ships in a planetary navy 
would have jump capability:

1.  Annual maintenance.<snipped>
2.  Surplus ships.<snipped>
3.  Prestige.<snipped>
4.  Pursuit capability.<snipped>"

	All good points, and IMTU some planetary navies do
	have starships, but there are advantages to having no
	jump drives:

1.  Superior performance. Unless the vessel(s) are surplus
	Imperial starships, they will tend to have more punch
	for the ton (and the credit) without jump drive (no
	jump drive, less fuel, fewer crew).

2.  Lower maintainance costs. If the vessel(s) can be serviced 
	insystem, maintainance on the jump drive and refined
	fuel costs could be removed.

3.  Localization of forces. Even if the Imperium (in wartime)
	wants to move your fleet to the nearby system where 
	THEY want it, the lack of jump drives may make it 
	difficult for them.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 16:22:32 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fleets 

> David Healey writes:
> "Just a general sort of thought thing, would colonial/planetary 
> fleets need jump capability ?"
> 
> and Black ICE suggests:
> "I can think of a few reasons why ships in a planetary navy 
> would have jump capability:
> 
> 1.  Annual maintenance.<snipped>
> 2.  Surplus ships.<snipped>
> 3.  Prestige.<snipped>
> 4.  Pursuit capability.<snipped>"
> 
> 	All good points, and IMTU some planetary navies do
> 	have starships, but there are advantages to having no
> 	jump drives:
> 
> 1.  Superior performance. Unless the vessel(s) are surplus
> 	Imperial starships, they will tend to have more punch
> 	for the ton (and the credit) without jump drive (no
> 	jump drive, less fuel, fewer crew).
> 
> 2.  Lower maintainance costs. If the vessel(s) can be serviced 
> 	insystem, maintainance on the jump drive and refined
> 	fuel costs could be removed.
> 
> 3.  Localization of forces. Even if the Imperium (in wartime)
> 	wants to move your fleet to the nearby system where 
> 	THEY want it, the lack of jump drives may make it 
> 	difficult for them.

All good points.  But I'd still see a *couple* ships being jump-capable just 
to 'prove' that the planet isn't a backwater bunch of hillbillies.  It'd be 
good for morale, *and* a good incentive for locals to perform well.  'You do 
good this year, and we'll get you a posting on one of the Jump-capable ships, 
with FTL pay, etc'.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 16:21:02 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

  
Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

********************************************

Referee Section

What's really going on?

The Visitor's are indeed a reptilian race, but physically near-human
excluding their egg-laying, long poisionous tongue (usually kept in a
pouch in their throat, and never seen among humans), slitted yellow 
eyes and a preference for mammalian meat.

While they don't mind swallowing guinea pigs whole (small rodent's
are typical fare on the Visitors homeworld), they prefer human flesh, and
that's one of the main reasons they're on Cong Su.  They are aware that
eating rodent's is repulsive to most of humaniti, and avoid it in public.
Of course, the real fate of those selected as "Visitor Scouts" or pro-Visitor 
researchers chosen to study on the homeworld is never mentioned.
It's pratically impossible to prove: the Visitor's have remarkable political
and social instincts, and are quite good at making their enemies look
like xenophobic buffons or science-worshipping fanatic ideologues.
Documentation is hard to find, even on the motherships - the Visitor's
know the importance of leaving NO paper trail.

The very few Conggi who know what's really going on tend to be
reprogrammed in a Visitor Education Centre ("You too can learn 
the technological secrets of the Visitor's in our special Research Centres!
Call now at 666-934-42678 for you personal appointment TODAY!"), 
and go on to live happy, satisfied lives.

Remarkably, despite the vast superiority of Visitor forces (and the 
local politicians, fully bought and paid for when not "persuaded" on their
personal tour of the Visitor ships), there is actually a resistance movement
against them.  Local, light firearms are worthless against the Visitor
Shock Troopers (due to the remarkable anti-ballistic properties of their
black breastplate - very good for their Tech level 9/A manufacture), 
but heavier weapons and laser's are much more useful.  The resistance 
movement is small, only about 200,000 or so, spread out on a world
population of 260 million.  They DO have a good number of scientist's,
intellectuals, and politicians with them, but are despised as idiot
militamen, manic science loons and ignorant bigot's by the general population.

[Did the PC's manage to make peace with the semi-Marine Scout's?  They could come
in very useful... especially if the PC's managed to obtain a FGMP, and gave it
to those who know it best...]

There was a failed attempt to repel the Visitor invasion with a locally built 
biological weapon called Red Dust.  A vaccine was given to pro-Conggi Visitors
(yes, they did exist: a very few still do), but Red Dust had a variety of nasty side-
effects.  It blighted food crops, causing starvation in a few regions of Cong Su.
In major concentrations, it's toxic to mammals (including the humans), causes 
an increase of stillbirth's and mutations, and an increase of respatory aliments.
Finally, Red Dust needed to have a cycle of temperatures below freezing
for the bacteria to rebuild itself and remain effective.

Fortunately for the Visitors, Red Dust was poorly distributed, only affecting a
few regions known for milita/terrorist activities and a handful of smaller cities.
The only region currently infested with Red Dust is the Kar Dijalis Archipelego,
which now affect's only mammals: the Visitor's now have their own vaccine.
They also used the Red Dust incident to make great political points,
declaring all-out war against those insane scientists, stressing the side effect's
on humans, making sure that both humans and Visitor's were involved in 
the clean-up, and further driving the anti-Visitor movement underground.

It's very, very difficult to find the Resistance movement.  Areas which remain 
sympathetic to the Resistance usually deface Visitor posters and propaganda
pamphlets with a red V, for victory.  These areas are almost always in the
"badlands", aka mountains, deserts, jungles, places where any central authority
always had difficulty governing.

If the PC's are good, they might be able to find out that the population
has been declining about 1% per year for the last three years, when the
Visitor's population program really kicked in.  (Hint: check out the
local government offices: the information is publiclly available, if buried 
somewhat).   At the same time, life expentancy has risen a remarkable 
four years during the same time: because so much of the population is 
in the local "Third World" there's still a good way to go
before everyone is living till their 70-80's.

Most of the population decline is due to the fall of the birth rate,
but a good 20,000 - 50,000 people per year choose to go on 
the saucers, to join the Visitor Scouts, see their homeworld,
by winning a contest, or getting very high marks in a bodybuilding
contest ("Build those muscles!  Get rid of that worthless fat!")
Someof the more wealthy members of society actually have enough to
pay for a ticket, AND pay for a highly valuable trade licence.  

Most never leave the Visitor's homeworld ("Life is so good here: I can't
even bear the thought of leaving" the forged videotape image said):
those that return were treated well, Persuaded to see what the Visitor's
wanted them to see, and are quite enthusiastic about the place when they return
("Can't wait to get back!")

The Visitor's are on Cong Su for more than just some good eating.
The are also covertly preparing the world for settlement.   After the
world's population has declined and aged to a certain point 
(currently 30 years from now, in 1170) a crisis will be created, the 
remaining Conggi will be moved to Emegency Housing Facilities,
hearded onto the saucers, and shipped to the homeworld for eating.
The world will then be settled by about one or two billion Visitors 
over a hunderd-year period: the necessary transports to 
move 10 million Visitors per year are being constructed.  The world
itself is perfect for Visitor settlement, so no terraforming is needed.
A TL 9/A infrastructure will be thoughtfully constructed by the humans, 
before the crisis is declared


********************

How did they get here?

The Visitor's are members of a military government which has conquered
thirty-two systems via sublight warship's in their region of the galaxy.
The government isn't popular due to the military expense of keeping
all those worlds (twenty-two have large, restless alien populations
that the Visitor economy depend's on).   It has no current starfaring 
opposition in it's region of space, but has no real friends either. 


The government found out that, earlier in their region's history, a 
minor human species invented an inferior, near-Jump Drive 
(called an Arkenstone Engine in Imperial engineering literature) , 
but which was mainly useless except near a Coisset Fragment. 
Near such a fragment, the Arkenstone Engine could - if designed and 
calibrated right - jump to a location of another Coissent Fragment.

The Imperium didn't make use of the Arkenstone Engine: the sheer cost and
the learning curve gave a very poor return for the information learned, and after
a few failed Scout experiments in the 880's it was abandoned: ship's
with the Engine didn't even budge an inch, never mind leap across galaxies.  

The minor human race - having no other method of FTL travel - pushed the Engine
for all it was worth for all it was worth, and finally made a round trip with the
Arkenstone Engine in -2994 Imperial / A.D. 1527 (when the First Imperium 
just started to go into decline).  Over the next 500 years, the occasional 
exploration vessel  (with both an Engine and a sublight drive) would be sent
to Foreven Sector, but no useful world was ever found (compared to 
other routes).

Much of the information was lost, but thousand's of year's later 
the Visitor's managed to successfully rediscover the principles of 
the Arkenstone Engine using both original research and ancient 
documents.  With the remarkable discovery of a workable chart to 
the Foreven Sector, the Visitor's sent *their* first scoutship, which 
arrived in Foreven in 892.  A small station was soon construted
at the Fragment, and a scout ship pernamently stationed here.
Their duties included charting interstellar space, mapping 
the area, listening to radio signals and sending sublight probes to look for 
good worlds before dropping into the primary to remove all evidence.

A major revolution occurred when, in 959, a jumpship was found with it's 
distress signal still blazing.  It was _The Northern Lights_ , a brand-new Profit-class, 
300-disp TL A trader, designed and built locally.  The trader was rescued, 
and the crew dealt with kindly and befrended.  Unfortuantly, there wasn't 
any hydrogen on hand to lend, so the traders decided to journey to the 
Visitor homeworld instead in the Visitor's "low berth".  They finally arrived at the Visitor's
homeworld at 1021.  There they were pumped for information, paid very well,
and poked and prodded.  They were permitted to live in ease and comfort 
for 15 years until the Visitor's were satisfied that they got all the information
they could from them: then they were eaten at about 1035.

 _The Northern Lights_ was brought back home for dissasembly and investiagtion:
jump drive still wasn't cracked until 1021 (mainly because _The Northern Lights_ had a
subtle flaw in it's engine, caused by the misjump), but much other information was gained.
In the meantime, a large "trade fleet" was slowly built to meet with the Cong Su government,
and unoffically conquer it. (The Visitor's have long experience in dealing with
small, world-bound civilizations). Moreover, a major naval base was built at great 
expense at the Coissent Fragment at Foreven Sector, which took decades to build.

The "trade fleet" left the staging area on 1057, arrived at the local 
Coissent Fragment at 1078, made a seven-day long jump across 1,880 
parsec's, and arrived at the Visitor base in Foreven Sector.  Then, it made 
it's way to Cong Su, arriving at 1117, one year after Strephon's assassination.
It takes 60 year's to make the journey via sublight ship, at about .05 c per year.

(The Foreven fragment is just under two parsec's from Cong Su: the Visitor
fragment is just about one parsec from the Visitor's homeworld).

***************************

What do the Visitor's have?

The fifty massive, 3.2 km diameter ships are buit with three drives: a jump drive,
an Arkenstone Engine, and massive gravitic plates that use interstellar gravity 
waves for sublight propulsion.  Smaller ship's use standard artigrav drives.  
Standard Imperial thruster plates are being researched and analyzed back 
at the homeworld.  The massive ships has a crew of 6500, including 3000 
infrantry Shock Troops, 1000 field support, 2000 technicians,
and 500 officers, political personnel, etc.

[ Aside: If I am doing my sum's right, the mother ships are about 50 Million disp 
  in size!  Not that it will stop a Tigress from ripping it apart with nothing
  but it's meson gun... ]

Weaponry ain't that hot: assume 200 TL A laser turrents, and two 
TL A laser batteries. The ship itself is largely a TL A construct, with
possible TL 9 components and  "Mystery TL" Arkenstone Drive and
gravitic plates.

As you might guess, most of the bulk of the ship is fuel for Liquid
Hydrogen for the drives, although several grams of antimatter is used for the 
Arkenstone Engine (The explosion if that antimatter contact's
matter would be bad, but I don't think it would destroy the ship in 
One Big Boom...)

There are also 15 docking and figher bays.  Assume 30 large fighters
(each with four lasers),  20 Squad ships (each with 2 lasers, 2 crew 
and 18 troops), and 20 Transports (configurable in 5, 8, and 10-cabin forms).
Each transport requres two crew, and each "cabin" holds 3.75 Visitors.
There is usually no weapons, but a weapon pub with a dual-barrel laser 
can be added.  Finally, there are 10 Tankers carrying Liquid Hydrogen, 
with a crew of four.  These are about 10 disp. in size.  Assume all of this 
equipment is at TL A, powered by small gravitic plates.

Interesting aside: did you know each Visitor Skyfighter hold's a 
pilot, a co-pilot, a gunner, and THREE TROOPERS?  Hmmmmmm..... 

[ Hint's for mercenaries: did I see any... tanks?  Nnnoooooooope!
         Did I see any... armoured vehicles?  Nnnnooooooope!
         Did I see any... artillery?  Nnnnooooooooope!
         Did I see any... major fortification equipment?  Nnnnoooooooope!    ]

At both the Coissent Fragment's (Visitor's end and Foreven End), 
there is a major 10 Million-ton Visitor base, with over 1000 laser 
turrent's, ten laser bay's and 10 missile bay's (each bay with 10 missiles). 


Moreover, there are over 50 TL A fighters,  200 more primitive TL 9 
fighters (which use fusion engines and missiles), and three
genuine warships.  These TL A warship's are a little smaller than the 
motherships, but optimized for battle, not occupation/transport/surveillance
The warship's are actualy decently armoured, with 5 top-of-the line
laser bay's for TL A, 500 laser turrent's and 500 missile turrent's.

Often, at both the Fragment's and Cong Su, you will see one to five transports.
These 1 km diameter saucer's are actually doing the transporting of 
human's, Visitor's, and equipment.  They are thinly armoured and have only 20
TL 9 laser turrent's, and a few auxiliary craft.

*****************************************

Now What?

After the PC's have a pretty good grip on what's really going on,
they then need to decide what to do.

[ Referee hint: usually the PC's would be clued in via contact with the Resistance, 
  although expirate Conggi living on other worlds - or even crewing other ship's - may give
  the Scout's a hand.  Individual research, daring raides into prison camp's, the local
  unoffical Zhodani agent, intense survellance from orbiting satilites (after somehow
  getting permission from the Visitor's under some guise or in payment for a tech
  exchange), cracking the Visitor encryption and searching for key words in the 
  Visitor language (how did the PC's compile a dictionary of a totally unknown 
  language?  Hey, they're Scouts - they should be able to do this in their sleep!), the
  methods should beleft to the players.  ]

Options include

   - Calling in the Imperial Navy.

  The typical Imperial Destroyer Squadron would make short work of the motherships.
  However, it ain't going to happen - Virus is banging very hard on the Domain's door, 
  so you can forget this idea right now.  Anyways, Cong Du was never a Imperial
  client world, and it's really far away - why should they care?

  -  Getting some mercenaries together

 This takes money.  Unless the Scout's can somehow raise the MultiMillions
 needed as a deposit to hire a mercenary capable of taking on the Visitors
 and their 150,000 TL 9/A troops on the ground (and another 100,000 local
 government troops, at TL 7/8),  this wont happen.

 The clever or poltically astute PC might find a way of getting the money,
 or get the Resistance to put some big buck's on the table, payable
 only on success (salvage right's to three motherships would be nice, but
 more is needed - including Cash Up Front.)

 - Getting the local systems together

This depend's on the local subsector astrography.  As this is not an offical
subsector, the Referee will have to design it -- don't forget the two worlds of
Byne (hex 2625, scout base, Imperial Client State) and Cong Su herself 
(hex 2626).  

As this is a poor subsector in a thinly settled sector beyond most of the 
worthwhile trade routes, I'd cap the local TL at 12.  There might be one or two 
high pop systems with the largest local Navy, and and another five sytems 
with some kind of decent Navy (or at least some decent technology).

Getting them to see the threat that the Visitor's present is possible, but
they'll want some evidence.  Also, those fifty mothership's look very imposing:
are you CERTAIN you want to attack them?  And the Visitor's are masters
when it comes to lying, deceit, and political manuvering: what happen's when 
they start offering Trade Advantages to divide up the PC's coalition?

And of course there's the Grand Battle itself: the referee has several night's
of design work to do in order to do justice to the Battle Of Cong Su.

- - Getting Zhodani support

The PC's may turn to the Zhodani in desperation.  This is unlikely to 
work: the Zhodani, unlike the classic Imperium, is not into military 
adventures on the far frontier's.  However, they might discover the
danger MUCH more quickly, if they can mindread the Visitor's at just the
right time.  They will certainly hate the Visitor's, with all the deceit 
and lies they spew.

If the PC's can convince the Zhodani's to beat up the Visitor's - a HUGE
if, but possible - a small Consular Navy flotilla will be sent, and the PC's will
have the interesting experience of working as military advisor's to the Zhodani.
Normally this would be a career-killing move (well, not just career-killing... ), 
but with the current Domain-Zhodani detente, it's possible.  It's a near certainty
that the Visitor's will be simply crushed in the battle, leaving interesting
salvage possibilities.  Some fast footwork would be needed to insure the
mothership's don't smash into the city below them when they go down....

- - Doing it yourself

It would be a fabulous public relations coup if just a handful of Scout's manage to 
drive off the Visitor's from Cong Su, all by their lonesome.  It might even 
persuade the Archduke to spare the IISS, and let them live (at a greatly-reduced
size).  The Station Chief would be all for this, if some kind of half-viable
plan could be cooked up....


*****************************************

Back at the Ranch...

Important points
  * The Visitor's are suffering from internal troubles back at home.  The Jump-drive
     technology that they have is only slowly being built into new ship's:  the political
     necessity of occupying Cong Su is delaying adoption of Jump ship's, and the 
     enormous cost of building Visitor-style, "Go Big or Go Home!" starship's with the
     vastly more expensive - yet vastly more faster - Jump1 Drives is slowly crushing the
     economy.

  * There is increasing discontent within the ruling Visitor race, with only the
     promise of good land in Foreven keeping a lid on things.  More and more voices
     are demanding that TinyShips (as the Visitor's call Imperial-space ships) be built,
     but this would decentralize power from the current ruling class.  

*****************************************

Timeline

1270 - Projected time of full Visitor Settlement of Cong Su
1170 - Projected time of human evacuation of Cong Su.  Visitor
            settlement beings in earnest

003-1134 - Current date, just after the awful Holiday party

1131 - Cong Su population begins to decline by 1% per year
1130 - AI Virus release
1129 - Red Dust incident: some Visitor's killed
1125 - Persecution of scientist's on Cong Su, especially those 
            in  the biological sciences.
1123 - Cong Su miliary blocks merged into one planetary democracy
1120 - Trade agreement between Visitor's and COng Su government's
             hamemred out.  Visitor money pores in, as does some Visitor 
             technology.
1117 - Arrival of Visitor Trade Fleet at Cong Su
1116 - Strephon assasinated
1078 - Visitor Trade Fleet arrives at Foreven
1057 - Visitor Trade Fleet leaves their homeworld
1035 - _The Northern Lights_ crew, after many year's in comfort, are eaten by 
           the Visitor's
1021 - Visitor race get's Jump Drive technology from _The Northern Lights_
  959 - _The Northern Lights_ is captured by the Visitor station 
            in Foreven Sector
  892 - Visitor's succesfully send their first Arkenstone Engine ship to Foreven Sector.
  ~800 - ~890 -  Visitor's attempt to reconstruct the Arkenstone Engine
- -2994 - Minor human race uses Cossent Fragment and Arkenstone Engine
              to enter Foreven space.  Limited exploration for the next 500 years.

*****************************************

Designer's comment's

There are several modifications made tot he Visitor's, to make them
more plausable and have a better Traveller fit.

Ignored items include 
  * the "stealing earth's water" bit
  * the moon-destroying Particle Beam Triax ( a tiny world-killing ship
     with a crew complement of TEN !?! )
  * anything psionic (except the Zho's)
  * the corny 1983 dialogue
  
Things to keep include
  * the feuding women.  Apparently, the Reagan Era was THE high-water mark 
    for bitches, complete with frizzy hair and all the rouge you can find.
  * the cool orange uniforms and sunglasses
  * the giant saucer ships hovering over the cities ( stolen wholesale by 
    Independence Day - where are V's royalty cheques? )
  * gulping down guinea pigs (in the privacy of your own home,of course)



*****************************************

Alvin Plummer

Prov. 27:6  "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful"

"Citizens of the Planet Earth... We bring you greetings... And we come in peace."
                      - V

*****************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #543
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 544



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Background color source
Tweaks to G:T Far Trader's Spec Trade rules
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #537
Re: Connection between Norris and Strephon
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Fleets
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Fleets
RE: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: low tech melee weapons
Re: low tech melee weapons
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Re: Today is Camerone Day 
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 17:22:34 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Background color source

While going through some boxes of old college books this afternoon, I found
"A Day In The Life Of Ivan Denisovich" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn.  It
details one day in the life of someone sentenced to the Gulag in Stalinist
Russia.

This would be an excellent source for GMs who want to send the players to
prison.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 08:44:39 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Tweaks to G:T Far Trader's Spec Trade rules

Optional Over-arching concept : GWP vs Trade

Knowing the GWP is nice for figuring things like local standards of living
and defense expenditure. Total trade is more important to determine how
much a world will want to import, or have available to export. I think of
Trade+GWP as a planet's turnover, while GWP is what they have left at the
end of the year after the megacorps, financiers, free traders and other
interstellar slime backed by the Imperium have finished exploiting them.

GWP is explained on p14. Total trade can either be computed the long way
(by figuring relationships with every trading world - and Capital has
meaningful trade with just about everybody), or approximated by taking the
top end of the biggest trading partner (eg Pagaton's biggest trade partner
is Dallia, for a 8.5 BTN (MCr 500-GCr 1). Pagaton's total trade is
therefore around 1 GCr). If a world has a couple of equally large partners,
then add them up and add 50%. Generally, if you just look for the closest
big world, you can wing it.

Note the amount of money that can be raised by import and export duties.

Finally, remember that your freight is someone else's speculative good ...

Barely Optional Rule #0 - 'This isnt a speculative cargo. It's sludge, and
it stinks'

All Spec Trade goods get to roll on Cargo Type, Special Handling and Terms
of Shipping.

Optional Rule #1 - 'I'll pay Retail'

If you missed a Find the Goods roll by (p36), you get an option on a lot,
but at +10% price per point you missed by. 

Nasty Optional Rule #1a - 'All schlock looked great in the shop'

You always find a batch on a Find the Goods roll. You just dont get told
that every point you missed the Find Goods roll by is a -1 DM on the Trade
Goods Reaction Table.

Only Slightly Less Nasty Rule #1b - 'They'll love it. We just need to baby
it a little on the way there'

For every point you miss the Find Goods roll by, it gets a free roll on the
Special Handling Table. Re-roll 'none', of course.

Option #2 - 'Do you have it in blue ?'

Once you have found a good, for every sourceworld WTN point, you can get a
+/- 1 DM to any of Origin Price, Risk or Lot Size (nominate DMs before any
rolls), or get extra rolls on Trade Class Modifiers. The logic is that
worlds with big economies have more chances at getting exactly what you want.

Option #2b - 'I have a cousin. He owns the factory'

Custom batches are possible. Each -1 DM costs 1% of Base Cost, and takes
one month. Cash in advance (nb just paying in advance could guarantee
availability when you come back. Or maybe not). Plus roll Legal skill,
limited by Area Knowledge, at -1 per point of CR for the world to avoid
unexpected contractual difficulties.

Option #3 - 'It's genuine Flavian Pobble Beads'

Goods worth MCr 1/dton have a +7 to risk. KCr 100, +3. KCr 20, -3. KCr 10, -7

Cheap goods need upside, while I cant think of too many high value, high
risk goods (well, OK. I can. It's a game balance thing ... the dice should
*never* determine something this big. Four dtons of Second Empire Fire
Sculptures should *not* appear on the dice).

Option #4 - Necessities and Luxuries

Goods get another defining category - necessities or luxuries. A world can
only spend 5% of it's GWP on a single batch of Luxuries. A world can spend
10% of it's Trade on a single batch of Necessities, but necessities dont
get Distance Mods on the Trade Goods Reaction Table (no-one cares how close
the air filters come from, just as long as they work. Brandy, on the other
hand ... unless it's the stuff the miners drink to forget. That commodity
is a neccessity).

Any given good has a 2/3rds chance of being a necessity, and a 1/3 chance
of being a luxury.

Option #4a - 'We cannot front, but we have many excellent tractor parts'

If a trader is prepared to take commodities in exchange, these numbers may
be increased by 50% (GMs option)

Option #5 - 'I bought some off you last month'

If a batch has been bought, you can make another Find Goods Roll to find
another batch (possibly of a different size). Every time this is done after
the second, roll the BTN of the 2 worlds plus the number of times on 3
dice, or some other trader notices the niche.

Option #6 - 'What do you mean you want fishes and loaves for ten thousand ?'

A world's available exports are usually limited to 2d6% of it's Trade at
any given point, as most production is already dedicated to filling
standing orders.

Of course, the right leverage can cause a 'production shortfall' ... this
is particularily true at small mining colonies, where a little cash and the
right goods (food, air filters, spare parts, pharmaceuticals) can cause
high grade ore that never appeared on the production schedules to
miraculously appear, ready for loading into a Far Trader that,
coincidentally, never appeared on the records either (this sort of 'theft
as servant' is for my money the most widespread sort of smuggling in the
Imperium).

Option #7 - 'Last month, you could have made money. This month ...'

Each week, roll 3 dice against any Predicted Destination Price. If it's
less than the number of weeks since it was made, trash the prediction. 

Option #8 - 'They want to know if we're interested in WHAT ?'

Traders go broke in interesting places. Feel free to make up interesting
goods turning up in all sorts of wrong places.

And finally, a quote ...


'To say the Bank of Antares caused the Long Night is akin to saying a man's
cause of death was asphyxiation by blood on the lungs when he was shot in
the chest with a slug thrower ... the collapse of interstellar
finance-capital was a symptom, not a cause of an inevitable crisis' J
Macpherson 'Essays on the Crises in Interstellar Capital'

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 07:32:29 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #537

> "Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> > (2)  X-Files variant:  Golf is a Vilani game.  A Vilani ship crashed
off
> > the Orkney Islands in Pictish times.  The survivors were able to
salvage
> > their golf clubs and manual.  After founding the Pictish culture and
> > making the bagpipe a more efficient weapon, they settled down to relax
> > and taught the Scots how to play golf.

One quibble:  The Scots are not the only people who play bagpipes.  Clearly
the improved Vilani pipes spread quickly throughout Europe and the Middle
East.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 08:10:07 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Connection between Norris and Strephon

> From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
> It's Aella.  I'm not sure on the direct family relationship (at least in 
> anything outside of something by DGP or possibly in the SMC, etc), but
RSB 
> says Arbellatra apointed the first Aledon as Duke of Regina the day after
her 
> coronation.

There's an article on the 4518 Lift Infantry (Duke of Regina's Huscarles)
in JTAS 9, at least some of which is reprinted in SMC.  It goes into some
of the background of the rise of Caranda, (the first Aledon duke), from
Baron to Duke.  

There's no mention of a family tie to Arbellatra, although that's not
grounds for rejecting the idea, and instead it emphasises Caranda's role in
holding the Marches for Arbellatra, and suppressing 'disloyal' factions. 
It also stresses that Caranda ruled Regina even when he was a 'mere' baron.


Anyway, last night I remembered how my group used to 'design' Runequest
scenarios back in the '80s.  I'm pretty sure it would work in Traveller,
too.

See, both RQ and Traveller have really deep and well developed backgrounds.
 In particular, both have accounts of epic world/universe changing events
that occurred in the past.  In RQ, it's stuff like the Lightbringers'
Quest, Arkat's saga, and so on.  In Traveller, it's, well, Strephon's
assassination, and things like that.

So, to involve players in the universe, what we used to do was to cut the
epic events down to size and run the players through them.  

For Strephon's assassination it would go like this:
First you review Rebellion Sourcebook, with all the accounts it has in
there.

Then, you design a suitable set of NPCs - targets, assassins, and
by-standers.  Make the target something like a local baron - a bigshot on a
planetary scale, kind of like Caranda in the previous section.

The location should be a grav palace - nice and exotic, and inaccessible. 
There's one in Divine Intervention, or you can mangle one up out of various
starship deckplans.

It's easy enough to think of why the PCs would be there - a baron isn't the
Emperor, after all.  Maybe they ran into 'Varian' in a pub!

Anyway, the PCs are hanging about when 'Dulinor' does his bit.  Whether or
not he succeeds, the palace will become a war-zone.  The coup would also
extend outside the palace, since there's no jump timelag on this scale.  

The PCs can either take sides, or just try to get out of there.

To prevent the players guessing what's going on, you have the option of
switching stuff around.  It might actually be more fun to run it straight,
given that they won't initially know what you're doing.

Anyway, that was just an example - there should be other events that can be
mangled into adventures, too.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

...SOS. Giant turtle has appeared...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 19:36:15 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

In a message dated 5/1/99 1:32:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
aplummer@idirect.com writes:

<<   * gulping down guinea pigs (in the privacy of your own home,of course) >>

do small mammals (rodents, small cats and dogs) go batshit when they smell a 
Visitor? This could be VERY useful...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 20:17:19 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In a message dated 5/1/99 2:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< 
 menn (a company?) held a chokepoint on a river  >>
A Battalion...The story- West of Honor......


BobS

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 17:43:41 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fleets

>From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Fleets
...
>Just a general sort of thought thing, would colonial/planetary fleets need
>jump capability ?  There may be something covered in canon somewhere about
>it .... ?  If they are set up as an auxiliary force for the Imperium, then
>yes, I could see the need, but otherwise, yer traditional fleet to protect
>the system would probably not need it.  Thoughts, sophonts ?

  In 5FW it's roughly one-third battleline and two-thirds cruiser squadrons;
interestingly, Rhylanor (the high tech/hi-pop wonder of the map) doesn't
have any - perhaps the worlds about which Imperial power is built don't need
their "own" Jump-forces to ensure that their interests are taken care of.

  OTOH, non-Jump units are de facto SDB's in 5FW...

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 19:57:18 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

At 08:17 PM 5/1/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 5/1/99 2:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
>
><<
>  menn (a company?) held a chokepoint on a river  >>
>A Battalion...The story- West of Honor......
>
>
>BobS
It was 75 men led by Lt. Hal Slater that held Fort Beersheeba along the 
Jordan river.


Jimmy Simpson
       nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
      and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                          -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 10:53:20 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fleets

G'day all,

On 1/5/99 Black ICE wrote :

>I can think of a few reasons why ships in a planetary navy would have
>jump capability:
>
>1.  Annual maintenance.  For a relatively low-tech world, or one with a
>low-quality starport, the ships may need to go outsystem for annual
>maintenance.  The ability to jump there might make things easier.

If you have a relatively low-tech world (say TL8) would they want to
procure and run ships that they cannot maintain themselves ?  Granted it
may make economic sense for other states to build and maintain your naval
vessels, but I would have thought that planetary pride would tend to favour
building yer own.  Additionally, your ability to beat a "beseiger" goes
down dramatically if you can't service your own fleet.

>2.  Surplus ships.  Planetary navies may contain ships that are surplus
>to current Imperial/subsector fleet needs.  Why rip the jump drives out?

In order to create more room for fuel, entertainment facilities (more fuel
= longer tours = bored crew), possibly more weapons, a smaller craft or two ?

>3.  Prestige.  Just as many smaller navies today maintain a token
>"blue-water" force, even when national maritime strategy focuses on
>littoral operations (for what does Argentina really _need_ an aircraft
>carrier?), so planetary navies would want at least some jump-capable
>ships, to go with their non-jumping boats.

This I can also see.  I suspect that there may be a plot device there
investigating systems that are acquiring vessels that are force projector
types.  For example, why would a belt system with 3 million souls want a
Tigress ?

>4.  Pursuit capability.  If a pirate or commerce raider jumps outsystem,
>the ability to pursue may be valuable.

OTOH, the system may just be thankful that they're gone.  I'm thinkin'
particularly of poor planets who can't really justify following and
attacking pirates who are no longer in their backyard.  They may very well
leave the pursuit and destruction to the Imperium in their role as
interstellar police.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 15:30:07 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

>On Friday, 30 April 1999 15:39, Robert Prior
>[SMTP:robert_prior@sympatico.ca] wrote:
>> >And no, I am not anti-gun, but I am "anti-arming-idiots-freely-with-
>> >guns,"
>> >but one man's idiot is another man's good friend... so how can it be
>> >done?
>> >
>> >--  The Roc
>>
>> Make possession of a deadly weapon de jure proof of intent to use deadly
>> force.
>
>Which is, perhaps, the most intrusive idea I have ever ran across.  Define
>deadly weapon.  How do you judge intent?  Swords and knifes are 'deadly
>weapons', but we keep them in our kitchens without thought.

Never said it wasn't intrusive.

"Deadly weapon" equals lethal device who's primary design purpose is
inflicting severe injury. For knives, I suspect a length-test would be
standard (which we already have up here).

>
>> If deadly force was justified, you are legally in the clear.
>
>Except if you merely own the instrument and *never* use it on anyone, you
>are still as guilty (in the legal sense) as someone who just committed a
>murder.
>
>No harm, no foul.

I see I wasn't clear. You own a gun, or a 4 foot sword, and you never use
it. No problem, no crime.

If you _do_ use the weapon, then possession of the weapon indicates
premeditated willingness to severely injure/kill. If this level of force
was justified under the circumstances, it was self defense. If not, it was
a premeditated action.

What I am aiming for, probably clumsily, is the idea that when you acquire
a weapon you have made a reasoned decision to do so, and thus you should be
held accountable for your actions.  If you _know_ that you get into fights
when you are drunk, then it behooves you to ensure that when you get drunk
you don't have access to a weapon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 20:06:39 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: low tech melee weapons

 
>	Boy, according to Traveller rules you must have strength of 13 for 
>the combat load  or  maybe  23 to carry that sack!
>
>					Dave Nelson
>
 nah, you get used to it. and it isn't pleasant!


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 20:11:39 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: low tech melee weapons

 >Until the batteries die.  BD is going to be hampered by relatively low
>endurance.  Makes it ideal for the first wave/assault package, but that and
>the expence of equipping all your troops with BD will result in it being
>used only be a small fraction of the troops.
 Sure, shocktroops. Of course, with grav vehicles in support and orbital support, this small force could be resupplied for continual ops for a long time (a la the 6th Armor (Light) (French) in the Persian Gulf - the 101st Air Assault helicopters dropped fuel for their tanks in *front* of the 6th - they pulled up to it, refueled, and maintained momentum.
>> I've written up an 'H-Hour' timeline for planetary assault by drop troops. 
>
>I'd like to see that, could you send me a copy?

 Sure, I'll translate it out of PDF and send .txt


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 20:18:47 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

[snip] 
I guarntee
>that no matter how you fiddle, there will be something in that suit that
>will be irratating as hell after about 12 hours.
>Which make the tactic for fighting BD equipped troopers clear.  Hide, then
>zap their follow on forces.  Pop HE rounds at them.. it won't penetrate the
>suit, but it might wreck the equipment they're carrying.  
[snip]
>Battledress is a force multiplier, but it has significant drawbacks [snip]
 I have to say I agree. BD is going to be a shock weapon for gaining an 'orbit-head' (amphibious ops=beach-head; airborne ops=air-head; drop ops=orbit-head), overwhelming defenders with speed and violence, etc. OR - general a##kicking on lower TL worlds!


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Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 21:54:35 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day 

> In a message dated 5/1/99 2:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
> 
> << 
>  menn (a company?) held a chokepoint on a river  >>
> A Battalion...The story- West of Honor......

A company, Company A of the 501st Provisional Battalion, under Lt Harlan 'Hal' 
Slater, at Ft Beersheba.  Funny you should mention that; I'm in the process of 
rereading West of Honor at the moment...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 12:00:17 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, 2 May 1999 12:34
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)


First, I have to re-state how impressed I am by the quality of posts on this
list (perhaps because the vast majority on Traveller and equipment go along
the lines of my thinking?).

>
>The other side of endurance is trooper fatigue.  I was lucky enough to take
>part in an experiment in how long infantry could stand being in MOPP 4
>chemical warfare gear.  The longest was 70 hours.  Most of us went nuts
>within a day.  To put it simply, you can't get to an itch, blow your nose,
>rub a sore muscle, etc., in a suit of battledress.  Individual effcienicy
>is going to plummet the longer the trooper stays in the can.  I guarntee
>that no matter how you fiddle, there will be something in that suit that
>will be irratating as hell after about 12 hours.
>

This, again, is my take on BD... the shear fact it would be a pain in the
a**e to be forced to wear it for extended periods.  Any Special Forces
troopie will tell you what it's like wearing the same set of fatigues for a
week or more is like... not nice at all really (unless you are a pre
pubesent teenage male... for some reason).  Now make that a fully enclosed
persoanl clothing environment even with a waste managment and food supply
system makes it so very much worse!

There are some inoventions I would like to think have been addressed with BD
in the far future though.  The aching muscle thing I have always pictured as
being addressed by an in-built T.E.N.S unit (Transdermal Electrical Nerve
Stimulator, as used by sportsmen... and even a chef friend of mine who
suffers shoulder ache in his work environment) would address that issue.
Probes in an undersuit (BD fatigues?) would simulate tired muscles on a
semi-regular basis automatically, or upon request (flick the switch) of the
BD wearer.  The probes send small, harmless electrical charges into the user
where the probes contact the skin and cause the muscle to "twitch" which in
turn massages the individual (T.E.N.S units can be purchased in Australia in
most chemists... in the US you would call the place a drug store I believe).

The T.E.N.S would handle itches on limbs and torso (though currents cannot
run safely across the heart), but can't go near the head at all... so the
nose itch would be a problem!  But in a safe atmospheric location, I believe
the helmet is easily accessible compared to the other parts of the suit, so
simply lifting the visor and scratching might work  :^)

>
>Which make the tactic for fighting BD equipped troopers clear.  Hide, then
>zap their follow on forces.  Pop HE rounds at them.. it won't penetrate the
>suit, but it might wreck the equipment they're carrying.
>

Indeed, even in CT, this was virtually the only way for non-BD equipped
troops to handle BD equipped troups.  One time I had an encounter between
the PC's and one BD equipped enemy, they were decimated, but one PC lured
the enemy into a quicksand-like swamp where the weight of the suit alone
sucked the unit under, the added stress in movement helped drain the suit (I
had indicated the enemy had been active for some time and there was a
visible sign of low power) and that was the last they saw of it.  They had
limited RAM ammo when they first encounted the baddie and managed to take
out his weapons systems with that, but in melee... phew!!!! (The encounter
was an intended "Run and escape" scene, but typical PC dalying led to them
being cut off from their ship and chased deeper into the swamp!)


>
>Battledress is a force multiplier, but it has significant drawbacks.  I've
>designed a couple of cheap GURPS weapons, similar to LAW rockets, that can
>reliably penetrate up to 1400 pts or armor, and can be fielded at a ratio
>of 200 weapons to each suit of battledress.  In this way, a suit of
>battledress is the modern extension of the tank.. very dangerous, but
>vulnerable to a patient, well trained enemy.
>
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net

Yes, like battlemechs have replaced tanks in many new-genre games, a "1-man
tank equivalent" was how I described a troopie in BD too.  It's effective
for players, and although I never had access to Striker (if it had
construction rules for creating LAW's) I had to simply deem LAW's existed,
making up the stats for it out of my head using commo sense to assist PC's
in dealing with BD's!

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 22:04:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >Again, the problem with thos 'naughty designs' is that if you end up in a
> system without easy access to drop tanks, your ship is stuck there.  If
> internal tankage is minimal, you won't be able to jump at all.  If you have
> *half* the needed jump fuel internally, your cruising range is *halved* and
> your response time is at least *doubled* at the normal jump limit.  Not a
> good idea.
> 
>   Broadly speaking, yes, although there are some work-arounds - which are,
> admittedly, unsatisfactory in most circumstances. But you do get strategic
> mobility (limited, fiddly) and maximum combat cost-effectiveness for your BCr.

Whaddayamean, 'there are some work-arounds'?  Either you carry sufficient tankage to allow you to make a maximum length jump, or you don't.  If you don't, there is a very real possibility of getting caught in a 'dry' system.  Either or.  Take your pick.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 12:21:53 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, 2 May 1999 1:08
Subject: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)



>
>Make possession of a deadly weapon de jure proof of intent to use deadly
force.
>
>If deadly force was justified, you are legally in the clear. This would,
>however, scotch any "but I only intended to scare her" defenses, and raise
>the charge from manslaughter to murder.
>
>
>ObTrav: This is how I rule on firefights in starports, IMTU.  But as most
>of my players travel unarmed, this has never actually happened to a player.
>(Couple of NPCs got nailed once.)
>
>Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, and make no claims as to the implications or
>constitutionalness (if that's a word) of my suggestion.
>
>
As a point of interest, In Queensland (again, I cannot speak for the rest of
Australia), if you suffer a home intrusion and fear for your life, by law,
you can only meet the assailant with *equal* force... ie:  If the villain
has a stick, you can defend yourself with a stick (cricket/baseball bat),
but cannot defend yourself with a knife or a gun!  If the villain has a
knife, you cannot defend yourself with a gun!!  So it is better not to have
a gun in the house under those circumstances it seems, as the majority of
home intrusions are done with knives, syringes, and "clubs"

As for security staff (night watchmen and the like), if they shoot a
criminal, I am assured that if the baddie doesn't have powder burn marks in
his chest ("He was coming straight at me!!"), you better have a good lawyer
Mr Security Guy... the warning given me when I was a patrolling security
officer, by several of my copper mates.

Not making a point here, just pointing out how some laws work.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 19:39:52 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:09:27 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>I'm talking about a tank that doesn't count against the limit and
>>collapses into the ship before you jump.  I means you get all
>>the benefits of drop tanks but don't have to rely on jump stations.
>>Less of an interest for merchant ships, but great for military
>>ships.

>  It's a cute idea, but it's not an allowed option under CT.

The problem is that there is no reason why.  It just seems
to be an arbitrary rule.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 20:07:25 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:00:23 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> I don't see why.  One thing the piracy debate established was that,
>> if ship depart from predetermined points they are easier to protect
>> against pirates and a merchant ship will generally be arriving and
>> won't be able to jump again without refueling anyway.

>The problem is, and still remains, once those points are known and plotted, a
>*determined* enemy can deny you the use of them.  If you're using 'jump
>stations', all the enemy has to do is commit enough forces to ensure its
>destruction, and the system is now pretty much pacified.  The danger in the
>Spinward Marches isn't so much piracy as it is the next Frontier War.

Well, first of all they don't have to be predetermined.  Only
outbound ships need to know where they are and those can be
informed of the latest location.   In fact,
If isn't clear to me that you would use any sort of permanent
station but rather just have tankers that go out with the ships.
If war breaks out, you just keep them in close orbit (or on
the surface) and move them out to the jump point.

Also, since one of the changes is to jump-6 routes, you open up
a _lot_ of alternate routes.  That means you have to hit a lot
of system to cut off traffic.

Another point is that they are realatively cheap, and it just won't be
that hard to crank out replacements.  I will be a lot cheaper
than replacing ships (and so that is what will remain the primary
target of commerce raiders).

In the end, there are a _number_ of things that can be done
and they won't the an achilles heal.  In fact, you could just
strap demountable tanks to them in war and simply use them
as lower jump ships.

>And no, *military* ships IMTU aren't designed to *exclusively* use drop tanks
>to the sacrifice of all internal jump fuel.

I agree that military ships won't be designed to use _just_ drop
tanks.  OTOH, being able to do a full jump-6 and arrive with
full tanks is a major advantage.

>> >  The fact that not all worlds
>> >have support for drop-tanks.
>>
>> Actually, if you look at the economics, most will.
>
>In Core areas, maybe.  On a raw frontier (i.e., D & E starports)?  Not for
>awhile, not until they upgrade to at least C's.

See my ealier post.  Worlds with BTN down around 6.5 will
have some such service.  This doesn't even qualify as a minor
route and, in the sample sector from Far Trader, even some
of the E's would qualify.

>You don't get *squat* for using collapsible tanks.  If they're internal, they
>just take up room that would be used for cargo or whatever.

And if they are empty and collapse down, they don't take
up much room at all.

>  Filling this
>space *after* the fuel is used and *before* the jump would be impractical at
>best, impossible at worst.

And why would that be?


>>(any
>> thing that is safe enough for PC is going to be great for
>> military uses and drop tanks are easily as big advantage being
>> able to do J-3 which was supposedly one of the things that let
>> the Solomani beat the Vilani)

>It was J-2 that gave the Sollies the edge in the Interstellar Wars, but the
>ships *weren't* equipted with drop tanks.  It was all internal.

I'm pretty sure it was J-3 vs J-2.  But either way, they had 50%
to 100% the range the enemy did.  Which
is exactly what a military ships that used both drop tanks
and internal tanks has.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #544
**********************************

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Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 2 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 545



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: G:T Far Trader
Re: G:T Far Trader
Space port laws and stuff
Re: T4 stuff
Commercial Contact between District 268 and the Sword Worlds
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Swords in the kitchen? Woah!
I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Re: Earth's Starport? 
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: Space port laws and stuff
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Enthropic Worlds Campaign Turn Format
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 20:02:44 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader

Sat, 01 May 1999 00:17:23 +1100, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Can someone rig up a computer program to generate all the trade routes in
>the Marches and to get trade quantities going thru each starport ? My brain
>is hurting just trying to do the numbers for Bowman Belt.

I had a spread sheet going when I was playtesting.  But in
the end I had it go 2/3 of the way through and did the rest
by hand (You have to stop at PC decision points.)  However,
it would be easy to at least come up with one that a lot
of the work.  (Esp. if it calculated the distance based
on the hex number so you could get all the way to BTNs).
I may try my hand at it if nobody beats me to it.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 22:36:43 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader

At 08:02 PM 5/1/1999 -0700, David Summers wrote:

>I had a spread sheet going when I was playtesting.  But in
>the end I had it go 2/3 of the way through and did the rest
>by hand (You have to stop at PC decision points.)  However,
>it would be easy to at least come up with one that a lot
>of the work.  (Esp. if it calculated the distance based
>on the hex number so you could get all the way to BTNs).
>I may try my hand at it if nobody beats me to it.

I have one that will calculate the BTN for any world in the Spinward 
Marches to every other world in the SM.  The worlds in my sheet do not 
precisely follow the BtC world data, as SJG changed too much for my 
taste.  It is based off the 1117 data from somewhere with the allegiances 
changed to reflect BtC.



Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 00:15:06 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Space port laws and stuff

"Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com> types:
>> Make possession of a deadly weapon de jure proof of intent to use deadly
>> force.
>Which is, perhaps, the most intrusive idea I have ever ran across.  Define
>deadly weapon.  How do you judge intent?  Swords and knifes are 'deadly
>weapons', but we keep them in our kitchens without thought.

The 'shod foot' has been classified as a deadly weapon.
As the old saying goes "I can bust up somebody pretty good with a plowshare."

Even with restrictive laws, PCs are pretty darn inventive in creating nasty
things out of what's available.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 00:20:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

In a message dated 99-05-01 03:15:28 EDT, you write:

<< 	Look for Starships in your nearest midden-heap ... >>

Okay, is that anu thing like a refuse pile?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 15:24:57 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Commercial Contact between District 268 and the Sword Worlds

This is part of a wider project of mine - writing up a 'Commercial Guide to
the District', which will be a very detailed look at District 268.
Donations of world descriptions, NPCs and so on will be gratefully accepted
... I want a page per world with it's exports, notable imports, NPCs, short
notes on government and other important persons and trade routes (including
routes for some of the Free Traders of the district). I'm doing this off my
own bat (I'm beginning a campaign around there), but I'm open to offers
from BITS or whoever.

**************************************************************************

Scheduled services exist between the Sword Worlds and Collace. Two main
lines work the route, one Imperial (?LSP?) and one Sword Worlder (Chaperon
Blancs), plus an assortment of Free Traders and chartered ships.

The standard route runs from Collace, Dallia, Notocol, Walston, Asteline,
Flammarion and then to Narsil, and on to Gram and Sacnoth. The six jumps
involved means a time of about fifty days for the route, assuming an
Express voyage is arranged.

About two hundred kilotons of goods to the value of about two billion
credits per year go along this route, plus about seven thousand passengers
a year.

Much of the route is negotiable only by jump-3 ships, and the freight rate
is Cr 6400 per dton of cargo. Middle passage for the route costs KCr 32, or
double this for High.

The route is as safe as can be hoped for on the Imperial fringe, with only
Notocol not offering a high quality starport.

A second, faster route exists, but it is far less safe and only attempted
by the desperate and the foolhardy. Rather than taking the safe rimward
path, the route goes through the Five Districts subsector, going Collace,
Avastan, 875-496, Iderati, Flammarion and then Narsil. This route goes
through the unihabited 875-496 system, and therefore is advisable only for
those going in convoy with Imperial warships. As this route involves only
five jumps, a time of forty five days should be achieved.

****************************************************************************
*******

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 00:45:15 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

In a message dated 5/1/99 1:32:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
aplummer@idirect.com writes:

 > <<   * gulping down guinea pigs (in the privacy of your own home,of course) >>

> do small mammals (rodents, small cats and dogs) go batshit when they smell a
> Visitor? This could be VERY useful...

I don't know: in the original V series, they didn't.

In "Real Life", the Visitor's would certainly smell funny to dogs et. al. and may have
a weird electrical field compared to Terran animals.  I doubt the possibility
that your typical rodent will behave more crazily in their presence than in any
other large moving object: rodent's seem to live in a perpetual state of anxiety,
anyway.  It's part of the price of being at the bottom of the food chain.

(Well, this side of plant life.)

A nice tool to jury-rig is some kind of scent-sniffer, that can detect the airborne
chemical's that a Visitor generates as a by-product of his metabolism.  The Scout's could
set up such a device: the TL 6-8 local could train a good hunting dawg just as well,
but need's to obtain some clothes with the right scent.

*********************************

Sidebar: That false skin....

It's quite a wonder.  Basically, it has a lubricant at the underside that
keeps the real scaley skin comfortable, has the ability to "breathe",
and can transmit sensation fairly well.  Admittedly, it can't blush, but
it does a good job radiating head from the Visitor's body.

Even so, it can wear down and stiffen with time, so it would need to be
changed once every nine Terran months.  If torn, it won't heal: it will bleed, but
a transparent fluid rather than blood.  A good ritual for joining the local resistance
is having to go through a major scarring....

*********************************

Getting some biodata:

One of the scout's missions is to get physiological data on the Visitor's.
You'd love to get a physical inspection of them, but they always refuse
"for cultural reasons".  What to do?

You could get some sensor's: heat-radiation, some way to get an X-ray
photograph using nothing but ambient light (is this possible at TL 15?).
Hidden photography, to see if their gait is differ's from a regular human,
and if so how (it doesn't... sorry).  You want some way to get an accurate
mass reading.

Without a body opened up for surgery or an autopsy, it's *hard* to determine
what the internal organs of a being is. A hand-held densitometer would be
of some use here (if such a thing is available).  Most densitiometer's are designed for engineering or geology: you'd
need to get a TL 15 medical version, if you can even find one
in the subsector, if it's even available at that Tech Level....

And even if you have a good densitometer map, you still can only make educated
guesses on what does what.  What you *really* need is a Visitor medical text: fat
chance you'll find one outside of a mothership. But the Visitor's are just maybe arrogant
enough to put a basic first aid info "datapad"  in encrypted format: after all, you need to
be able to treat  your wounded in the field, and there isn't alway's a medic around.

The second best option is to get a willing Visitor who'll submit to a ton of test's back at
the Scout base (perhaps a prisioner of war will do?  Some interesting issues
here...).  The third best option is getting a fresh corpse into the low berth for shipment
back home.

I expect the upcoming Scout Book will provide us with more info on what's
tools are most useful for Scout's to use.

- ------------------------------

Alvin Plummer

Good government never depends upon laws, but upon the personal qualities of
those who govern.  The machinery of government is always subordinate to the
will of those who administer that machinery.  The most important element of
government, therefore, is the method of choosing leaders.
                -- Frank Herbert, "Children of Dune"

- ------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 01:09:54 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, May 01, 1999 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT


>True. But in Britain at least the murder rate has been dropping, which
>means that if many murders went undetected before it has _really_ been
>dropping.


I wasn't simply talking about murders. It was just a general statement that,
all across the board, awareness of crime has increased. As a result (at
least in my opinion) the collective anxiety about crime has increased.

>The same is true (on a per capita basis) for Toronto; you actually are less
>likely to be murdered here than in the 1950s, but most people think that it
>has gotten more dangerous.


I'm not sure if what I was saying can be applied in a case by case basis, or
a city by city basis. It's something more general and not terribly
quantifiable.

I was trying to say that we're more afraid of crime because we're more aware
of it.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 01:08:01 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:00:23 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >> I don't see why.  One thing the piracy debate established was that,
> >> if ship depart from predetermined points they are easier to protect
> >> against pirates and a merchant ship will generally be arriving and
> >> won't be able to jump again without refueling anyway.
> 
> >The problem is, and still remains, once those points are known and plotted, a
> >*determined* enemy can deny you the use of them.  If you're using 'jump
> >stations', all the enemy has to do is commit enough forces to ensure its
> >destruction, and the system is now pretty much pacified.  The danger in the
> >Spinward Marches isn't so much piracy as it is the next Frontier War.
> 
> Well, first of all they don't have to be predetermined.  Only
> outbound ships need to know where they are and those can be
> informed of the latest location.   In fact,
> If isn't clear to me that you would use any sort of permanent
> station but rather just have tankers that go out with the ships.
> If war breaks out, you just keep them in close orbit (or on
> the surface) and move them out to the jump point.

What do you mean, they don't have to be predetermined?  If you have a fueling 
station in orbit at 100 diameters from a given body, it *WILL* be 
predetermined where it will be.  It's simple orbital mechanics, the same thing 
that keeps Earth's orbit straight.  Once you know its approximate position and 
orbital dynamics, you'll know its approximate position *forever*.
 
> Also, since one of the changes is to jump-6 routes, you open up
> a _lot_ of alternate routes.  That means you have to hit a lot
> of system to cut off traffic.

Not if you're going after point of origin.  Who cares where outbound ships are 
going if you whack out the outbound fuel point?  Once they're there in the 
system, they aren't going anywhere to tell people *you're* there.

> Another point is that they are realatively cheap, and it just won't be
> that hard to crank out replacements.  I will be a lot cheaper
> than replacing ships (and so that is what will remain the primary
> target of commerce raiders).

A *BILLION* credits or so is not relatively cheap compared to a 30 *MILLION* 
credit starship.  And if it gets whacked out, you get to spend *ANOHTER* 
billion credits to replace it.  So where's your 'economy'?
 
> In the end, there are a _number_ of things that can be done
> and they won't the an achilles heal.  In fact, you could just
> strap demountable tanks to them in war and simply use them
> as lower jump ships.

I don't have a problem with that.  I never have.  I *do* have problems with 
somebody's logic when they tell me that building ships without jump tankage is 
cheaper than building them with, then say 'well, you use this cheap station at 
the 100 diameter limit to hold your fuel'.  The numbers don't support the 
allegations that non-fueled ships are cheaper.
 
> >And no, *military* ships IMTU aren't designed to *exclusively* use drop tanks
> >to the sacrifice of all internal jump fuel.
> 
> I agree that military ships won't be designed to use _just_ drop
> tanks.  OTOH, being able to do a full jump-6 and arrive with
> full tanks is a major advantage.

You do that by strapping on a set of tanks, burning the tank fuel, ditching 
the tanks, and jumping, which has been canonical for what, 20 years now?  
That's what drop tanks were *designed for*, to let you do two jumps in a row.
 
> >> >  The fact that not all worlds
> >> >have support for drop-tanks.
> >>
> >> Actually, if you look at the economics, most will.
> >
> >In Core areas, maybe.  On a raw frontier (i.e., D & E starports)?  Not for
> >awhile, not until they upgrade to at least C's.
> 
> See my ealier post.  Worlds with BTN down around 6.5 will
> have some such service.  This doesn't even qualify as a minor
> route and, in the sample sector from Far Trader, even some
> of the E's would qualify.

No.  Type C ports only have unrefined fuel availiable.  Type D's are the same, 
only with less extensive facilities.  And Type E's are just wide spots to set 
down on.  If there's no facilities to adequately take care of visiting 
starships, what makes you think there's facilities to make and recover drop 
tanks?  My take on it is this:  if they don't have refined fuel availiable, 
they ain't got drop tanks availiable.  Period.  How much simpler do you need 
it?

> >You don't get *squat* for using collapsible tanks.  If they're internal, they
> >just take up room that would be used for cargo or whatever.
> 
> And if they are empty and collapse down, they don't take
> up much room at all. 
> >  Filling this
> >space *after* the fuel is used and *before* the jump would be impractical at
> >best, impossible at worst.
> 
> And why would that be?

The ship is about to jump.  Even with T4 rules, the ship must jump within an 
*hour*.  You won't have *TIME* to load the space where the collapsed tank is 
before the ship *HAS* to jump or suffer penalties for a misjump, or abort the 
jump entirely and *WASTE* the fuel it burned for the jump.

Keven
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 01:13:38 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Swords in the kitchen? Woah!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Moody, Danny M. <DMoody@bridge.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, May 01, 1999 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav


>deadly weapon.  How do you judge intent?  Swords and knifes are 'deadly
>weapons', but we keep them in our kitchens without thought.


I'm glad to see I'm not the only one.

I keep a variety of swords in the kitchen. I've got a gladius for finesse
work and a huge tuetonic two-hander for those extra-tough jobs.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 01:37:48 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

>>deadly weapon.  How do you judge intent?  Swords and knifes are 'deadly
>>weapons', but we keep them in our kitchens without thought.
>
>
>I'm glad to see I'm not the only one.
>
>I keep a variety of swords in the kitchen. I've got a gladius for finesse
>work and a huge tuetonic two-hander for those extra-tough jobs.

 I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that my wife calls 'the axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel (wooden grips held on with brass fittings) with serrated edges, a back-spike, and beveled front edge - and a wrist thong! She refuses to let me buy a gun because the spatula would be much better in close combat....


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 22:42:37 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Earth's Starport? 

In Traveller cannon a starport not only has too meet certain technical
requirements it has to considered a starport to ber a starport.  Since we do not
(barring fringe cases) expect starships to land at these ports they are
spaceports.

"While it is possible for spaceports to accept starships, they are called (if
only for convenience, and for terminology) spaceports.
CT Book 6 Scouts, page 39

Since our spaceships ports are not set up for starships they are considered
spaceports.  Once the Vilani starships land then we can recode current ports from
F or G  class spaceports to D class starports.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 01:57:17 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

 
> If everyone walked around carrying loaded AK-47s, and yet no one was ever
> shot with one, then no one would even think that AK-47s needed controlling.

This comes up so many times i feel the need to pick a couple nits.
There are hardly any AK-47s in the US. Most are AKS-47s (or dervived
weapons) that are SEMI-automatic. So they are not the military
weapon, they just look like one. Two (and more important) rifles of
all kinds are used in the tiny minority of firearms crimes--less
than 2% if I recall.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:40:40 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Space port laws and stuff

>The 'shod foot' has been classified as a deadly weapon.
>As the old saying goes "I can bust up somebody pretty good with a
plowshare."
>
>Even with restrictive laws, PCs are pretty darn inventive in creating nasty
>things out of what's available.

c.f. the entire set of "martial arts" weapons (bo, nunchuku, sai, etc)
modified from farming implements due to the weapons restrictions imposed by
the occupying Japanese.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 02:02:07 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>>And no, *military* ships IMTU aren't designed to *exclusively* use drop tanks
>>to the sacrifice of all internal jump fuel.
>
>I agree that military ships won't be designed to use _just_ drop
>tanks.  OTOH, being able to do a full jump-6 and arrive with
>full tanks is a major advantage.

  Actually, the disgustingly min-maxxed (and in some cases, AFAIK, illegal)
"Eurisko" -series TCS designs did just that, although in a proper strategic
campaign the advantages start to decrease very rapidly.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 02:03:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>The problem is that there is no reason why.  It just seems
>to be an arbitrary rule.

  Agreed, but deliberately adding further capabilities only worsens the
situation. Presumably (i.e., all tank types are discussed in one section
in TCS) external rigid tanks can't be "folded" in minutes, and collapsible
tanks can neither be used externally nor used directly for Jump.

  Drop tanks as written are horribly glitch-ridden in several respects,
but any further imaginative options are irrelevant to OTU.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 02:14:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

>From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
>Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...
...
>>Interestingly, I heard the same lament in Australia about the lack of
>>interest in S1889 when it was in production. Is/was there an anti GDW bias
...
>Most gaming clubs in Aussie, from my memory, started as serious table top
>miniature and military simulation game clubs, with the odd group in the club
...

  Actually, I never seriously considered playing colonials until after getting
into Space: 1889 in a big way - and the camp potential for building land-
ironclads and using model dinosaurs is immense; there are some great web-sites
out there for groups that handle 1889 with greater or lesser seriousness :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 06:02:14 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Enthropic Worlds Campaign Turn Format

The Enthropic Worlds Campaign is set in the alternate Traveller Universe 
featured in GURPS TRAVELLER. The campaign is based around the events 
surrounding the Enthropic Worlds Cluster in the Imperial year 1120. In this 
campaign the players control a network of characters (e.g., agents of 
influence) that explore and affect the game environment. The characters 
should be built using the GURPS game rules, but are not necessarily 
restricted to it. Characters created using the GURPS system are restricted to 
100 character points, up to 5 quirks, and either one large disadvantage, or 
up to 40 points in lessor disadvantages. The character template system used 
in GURPS TRAVELLER is highly recommended. 

There seems to be some confusion as to exactly what players are required to 
do initially. Here is a standardized format of what the referee is looking 
for initially and each following turn. Everyone please use this format, this 
thing is taking for ever to get going and I think this will speed things up. 

Character Name:
Affilitation: (i.e., Imperial Navy, Zhodani Consulate, Freetrader, etc.) 
Description: (Appearance)
	Attributes:
	Advantages/Disadvantages:
	Skills: 
Location: World name and grid. 
Mission Statement: What is the long or short range goal of the character.
Tasks to complete this turn: Short description identifying exactly what the 
player wants this character to do on this turn. Remember turns are monthly so 
description should reflect that fact. Example, "Attempt inflitration of the 
Imperial Lines facility at the Regina Starport. Look for information relating 
to recent passage of Imperial nobility through Regina to Efate." 

Remember, the referee's assessment of how successful your character was in 
completing an identified task will be based on your character's attributes, 
advantages/disadvantages, and skills. For somethings I may roll, for others I 
will make an decision based on the level of skill your character has been 
assigned. 

I will assign your assets once I have received your characters in this 
format. Those of you that have sent me characters, please transcribe those 
characters to this format to faciltate my processing and incorporating into a 
referee's file. 

General Background:

This section will be a short review of the general situation for all 
concerned parties involved in the campaign. It is not specific to one faction 
or the other. Information included here is to be considered available to all 
players via their faction or agency's intelligence collection assets. 

The Enthropic Worlds Map:
[Unable to display image]

The Imperial year is 1120. Astrographic information can be downloaded from  
<A HREF="http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/">CORE</A>, Encyclopedia 
information is available from  
<A HREF="http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/libframe.htm">Traveller 
Library Data
</A>. 

The general situation in the 1120th year of the Third Imperium is dynamic and 
full of hope and the possibility for profit. The tension between the Zhodani 
Consulate is decreasing as both the Consulate and the Imperium are turning 
their attention to other regions of Charted Space. the Zhodani are diverting 
resources to their coreward expansion, while the Third Imperium is slowly 
turning its attention toward other borders with the Kree, Aslan, and the 
Solomani. 

In the Spinward Marches, Imperial interest is growing on the encroachment of 
Aslan Hatei into District 268. Although the Darrians are allies of the Third 
Imperium, their welcoming of the Aslan to the Marches is not looked upon 
favorably by Archduke Norris or the other nobility of the Marches. 

In the face of this increased interest in the Aslan Hatei, the Sword Worlders 
are watching and waiting. They are bruised and angry from their treatment by 
the Vargr and the Zhodani at the ending of the Fifth Frontier War nearly a 
decade ago. The Fifth Frontier War was a short but brutal interstellar war 
fought by an alliance of the Sword Worlders, Vargr, and the Zhodani against 
the Third Imperium to curve the empire's expansion into the frontier beyond 
the Spinward Marches. It was a preemptive strike by the so-called Outworld 
Coalition. One designed to blunt the end of the Imperial juggernaught. 
However, at the negotiated end of the war, the Sword Worlds was the only 
government forced to give up territory lost in the fighting. In fact the 
Consulate and the Imperium returned lost territories to their prewar owners 
at the end of the fighting. Only the Sword Worlds was forced to pay for their 
attempted conquest in land and resources. In addition to loosing nearly half 
its planetary membership, the Sword Worlds was also forced to give up claims 
of sovereignty over the Enthropic Cluster Worlds. The Enthropic Cluster is 
the Sword Worlds' gateway to the spinward frontier not yet claimed by the 
Zhodani or the Imperium. To loose the Enthropic Worlds is to loose all hope 
of future territorial expansion through exploration and colonization.  

Not only is the Sword Worlds painfully aware of the growing importance of the 
Enthropic Worlds, but so are Imperial megacorporations such as GSbAG (which 
specializes in starship construction and starport administration and 
maintenance), and Tukera Lines (the premiere transport line in the Imperium). 
both of these giants have interests in seeing that whatever is beyond the 
Imperial border, it is exploited to its fullest by their stockholders. 

In addition to that, the Darrians themselves are seeing new opportunities on 
the horizon. They have been in the shadow of the Consulate and the Imperium 
since their reemergence into interstellar space following their fall after 
the electro magnetic pulse known as the Maghiz reduced their civilization to 
industrial age technology. Although the Darrians boast a very high technology 
level on their homeworld, the actual truth is that their actual general 
technology levels are no higher than the Sword Worlders or local Imperial 
worlds (GTL 9 and 10). With their perceived weakening of their traditional 
enemies, the Zhodani and the Sword Worlders, the Darrians feel renewed 
boldness in their own economic and political agendas. The infusion of their 
own Aslan citizen population with the new blood of the approaching Aslan 
Hatei also is seen by them as strengthening their own position in galactic 
politics. 

In the center of all this sets four until recently considered worthless 
worlds. The Enthropic Worlds. 

Military Assests.

Rule of thumb for assigning military assets to a region based on the 
MegaTraveller books Rebellion and Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium, 
will be conservative. I am anticipating that there will be one squadron 
assigned to each identified naval base from the Universal Planetary Profiles. 
GURPS' Behind the Claw Spinward Marches sourcebook seems to support this. I 
consider a battle squadron to be based on one or two capital warships in the 
50,000 to 100,000 displacement ton range with assorted escorts ranging in 
sizes of 1,000 to 50,000 displacement tons. Numbers of ships in a squadron 
should never exceed one to two dozen, with the larger the size of the ships 
the less number being present. All ships in this campaign should be GTL 10 
ships based on the technology levels of all the planets with class A (Gurps 
Type V) starports in the play area. GTL 12 (Classic Traveller TL14 and 15) 
ships can be arranged through the Zhodani Consulate and the Third Imperium on 
a one-by-one basis with consultation with the referee as a specific player 
related asset. Although the Darrians have high technology on their homeworld, 
the rest of their worlds to include those with Aslan populations, have GTL9 
or 10 levels. Reading the description of the Darrian technological situation 
lends itself to the fact that the Darrians have isolated examples of their 
past glories, but do not export sustain levels of high technology, thus their 
ships would not reflect such a capability (Darrian players can negotiate this 
on a one-by-one basis dependent on the character types selected.) 

Assume all army forces are equipped at GTL 9 and 10 standards. Imperial 
Marines and Consular Guards units are equipped to GTL 12 but are encountered 
rarely. Hatei Aslan are equipped at GTL 9 and 10, but have access to Imperial 
traders trading through Glisten from Mora subsector and the Deneb sector for 
GTL12 equippment on a case by case basis. 

Enthropic Worlds' Encyclopidia Descriptions: 

Entrope had a much better spaceport before the last takeover by the Sword 
Worlds. All facilities were destroyed to prevent Entrope from serving as a 
base for Darrian ships. The starport is still little more than a cleared 
space and a customs shed. Fuel may be obtained from the ocean since there are 
no gas giants.

Entrope's current leader is Major Kerin Yoldat, a war hero who was 
responsible for the coup that swayed Entrope's ground forces to the Darrian 
side at the time of the invasion that retook the planet. Major Yoldat is 
still investigating former collaborators and Sword World immigrants, 
expelling or imprisoning some of them. Weapons are not actually outlawed, but 
it takes a timeconsuming background check to get a permit to carry one.

Winston was thinly colonized before it was taken over and lost a great deal 
of its population and technology in repeated fighting with the Sword Worlds. 
Some nations are still sympathetic to the Sword Worlds, but most are loyal to 
Darrian.

Anselhome is a large asteroid which attracted colonists because of its wealth 
of ores. Living quarters are hollowed into the rock. Some of the atmosphere 
for the underground habitats is processed from the gasses put out by 
Anselhome's volcanoes. The only native life (whose existence amazed some 
scientists) are bacteria and lichens in the low-lying valleys. 

Torment is a prison planet for the most incorrigible of criminals, those whom 
Darrian psychologists have judged impossible to cure of violent tendencies. 
It is miserably cold and barren, consisting only of the one central village 
of convicts. They are required to work in mining and industry to pay for the 
import of enough food to support them. The prison is run by a hierarchy of 
criminals who demand obedience from their fellow convicts. This obedience has 
little to do with law and order, as might be expected. They select their own 
successors before dying.


Well I hope this helps everyone out.  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 06:23:37 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rick Stump <hyperc@mailcity.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 2:44 AM
Subject: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)


> I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that my
>wife calls 'the axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel (wooden grips 
>held on with brass fittings) with serrated edges, a back-spike, and 
>beveled front edge - and a wrist thong! She refuses to let me buy a 
>gun because the spatula would be much better in close combat....


Truth is stranger than fiction.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #545
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 2 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 546



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: low tech melee weapons
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Space port laws and stuff
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...
GT: Imperial Navy -- Call for Submissions
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...
Re: Space port laws and stuff
Re: T4 stuff
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Rochelle-class Monitor (GTL12)
Christopher Thrash please read
Re: 12mm Libertad rifle
Starship Depreciation (and drop tank economics)
Re: Earth's Starport
Uniforms and Patches
Re: Killer Spatulas
Re: Uniforms and Patches
Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: CT character gen programs
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Sylea Downport updated
Re: Uniforms and Patches

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:32:40 +0200
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: low tech melee weapons

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> At 10:35 AM 4/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > OTOH, powered Battle Dress is going to still be a major improvement for
> the infantryman.
> Until the batteries die.

When the powered infantry realize - all over again - that it's *always* Bowb
Your Buddy Week. ;-)

/Jonas

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 08:39:25 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In a message dated 5/1/99 8:21:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
RnLschaefr@aol.com writes:

<< < 
  menn (a company?) held a chokepoint on a river  >>
 A Battalion...The story- West of Honor......
 
  >>

	And Christian Johhny was leading the relief column, not the 
choke-point garrison.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 08:42:24 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Space port laws and stuff

"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> types:
>>The 'shod foot' has been classified as a deadly weapon.
>>As the old saying goes "I can bust up somebody pretty good with a
>plowshare."
>>Even with restrictive laws, PCs are pretty darn inventive in creating nasty
>>things out of what's available.
>c.f. the entire set of "martial arts" weapons (bo, nunchuku, sai, etc)
>modified from farming implements due to the weapons restrictions imposed by
>the occupying Japanese.

   I've been in and out of the arts for 20 (yikes!) years.  I've never head
a good explaination for a sai being a farm implement. :-)
I've also have several LEOs tell me the best reason for "The Club" (an
anti-car theft device) is that it gives you a legal reason to carry a steel
billy club in your car.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Practice random acts of intelligence & senseless acts of self-control.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 08:50:48 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...

In a message dated 5/1/99 10:24:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, roc@kewl.com.au 
writes:

<< f the villain has a
 knife, you cannot defend yourself with a gun!!  So it is better not to have
 a gun in the house under those circumstances it seems, as the majority of
 home intrusions are done with knives, syringes, and "clubs"
  >>

	There is one great advantage to America's gun laws in that violent 
home-intrusion is in comparison to other countries more uncommon,  In the 
U.S. burglars are most often active in the day when they know homeoowners are 
gone to work.   The assumption among most career burglars is that homes have 
guns in them and they might be shot if they enter an occupied house.   You 
can argue about the negative effects of gun ownership, which may or may not 
outweigh this advantage, but it is a real advantage.

	ObTrav:  on a low law level world,  PC's are less likely to need 
constant high level of security as long as a well armed guard is clearly 
visible at random times.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 08:07:39 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: GT: Imperial Navy -- Call for Submissions

The authors of GURPS Traveller: Imperial Navy are looking for your
assistance! Details are posted on a web site (updated 2 May 99):

<http://www.io.com/~thrash/ImpNavy.html>

Additional information on this (and the GT: Starships project) can be found
at:

<http://www.io.com/~thrash/starship.html>

Submissions become property of SJ Games. I will accept submissions at
<thrash@io.com> on their behalf and forward them. Time is short to
contribute to this sourcebook -- first draft is due in June -- so don't delay.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:19:56 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...

>As a point of interest, In Queensland (again, I cannot speak for the rest of
>Australia), if you suffer a home intrusion and fear for your life, by law,
>you can only meet the assailant with *equal* force... ie:  If the villain
>has a stick, you can defend yourself with a stick (cricket/baseball bat),
>but cannot defend yourself with a knife or a gun!  If the villain has a
>knife, you cannot defend yourself with a gun!!  So it is better not to have
>a gun in the house under those circumstances it seems, as the majority of
>home intrusions are done with knives, syringes, and "clubs"
[snip]
>Not making a point here, just pointing out how some laws work.
>
>--  The Roc

Well, IMTU "force" includes the person using the weapon. _My_ Imperial
judges are smart enough to realize that a Str1 old lady with a sword is
less well armed than a Str15 thug with a knife.

In the real world?  I asked this question when I was getting my last
degree, and the lawyer told me that (a) when comparing a 125lb teacher (me)
with a 200lb attacker a judge would understand that 'trading punches'
wasn't equal force, and (b) as I am "in loco parentis" fighting tooth and
nail for my kids was defensible.  Fortunately I've never had to test this
in court.  (Last time I was attacked I counterattacked with a door. Kid
pulled a groin muscle -- he wasn't expecting me to close the door!)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:24:37 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Space port laws and stuff

>"Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com> types:
>>> Make possession of a deadly weapon de jure proof of intent to use deadly
>>> force.
>>Which is, perhaps, the most intrusive idea I have ever ran across.  Define
>>deadly weapon.  How do you judge intent?  Swords and knifes are 'deadly
>>weapons', but we keep them in our kitchens without thought.
>
>The 'shod foot' has been classified as a deadly weapon.
>As the old saying goes "I can bust up somebody pretty good with a plowshare."
>
>Even with restrictive laws, PCs are pretty darn inventive in creating nasty
>things out of what's available.

Yup.

"Deadly weapon" is a device primarily designed to inflict injury and/or
death on someone.  Yes, there are gray areas, but I'm running a game here,
not changing Canadian law (which, generally, I'm pretty content with).

A 3" paring knife is a kitchen tool. A 3' spatha is a weapon. Somewhere in
between is a gray line.

A shotgun on a frontier settlement is a hunting tool. A shotgun in the
middle of Regina's largest city is a weapon. An FGMP-15 is _always_ a
weapon.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:25:37 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

>In a message dated 99-05-01 03:15:28 EDT, you write:
>
><< 	Look for Starships in your nearest midden-heap ... >>
>
>Okay, is that anu thing like a refuse pile?
>-Stephen

No, the Anu use midden-heaps too.  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:31:01 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

>>True. But in Britain at least the murder rate has been dropping, which
>>means that if many murders went undetected before it has _really_ been
>>dropping.
>
>
>I wasn't simply talking about murders. It was just a general statement that,
>all across the board, awareness of crime has increased. As a result (at
>least in my opinion) the collective anxiety about crime has increased.
>
>>The same is true (on a per capita basis) for Toronto; you actually are less
>>likely to be murdered here than in the 1950s, but most people think that it
>>has gotten more dangerous.
>
>
>I'm not sure if what I was saying can be applied in a case by case basis, or
>a city by city basis. It's something more general and not terribly
>quantifiable.
>
>I was trying to say that we're more afraid of crime because we're more aware
>of it.

Which is exactly what I was trying to say!

Although, oddly enough, our neo-con politicians are promising extra money
to 'fight crime' and make people feel safer (election year), while
admitting (when cornered) that crime is actually dropping. Meanwhile they
can't afford homeless shelters, have cut child support and welfare (our
staff is now feeding two families at school)...

My personal opinion is that media outlets that splash crime stories across
the screen to boost ratings are doing the community a disservice. But
that's getting really off-topic.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:35:43 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

>
>> If everyone walked around carrying loaded AK-47s, and yet no one was ever
>> shot with one, then no one would even think that AK-47s needed controlling.
>
>This comes up so many times i feel the need to pick a couple nits.
>There are hardly any AK-47s in the US. Most are AKS-47s (or dervived
>weapons) that are SEMI-automatic. So they are not the military
>weapon, they just look like one. Two (and more important) rifles of
>all kinds are used in the tiny minority of firearms crimes--less
>than 2% if I recall.

Sorry, just been rereading Guns of the South, and the name popped into my
head. Well, that and the fact that I don't know the names of any other
automatic weapons except the M-16.

So are 98% of the crimes committed with handguns? (Just curious, no
Traveller connection I can think of, yet.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:44:21 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Rochelle-class Monitor (GTL12)

Rochelle-class Monitor (GTL12)
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller, with Chris
Thrash's planetoid hull expansion.


One of many small monitors stationed throughout the Glisten Belt, the
Rochelle is a typical planetoid warship. Cheap, massively armoured, and
virtually immobile, planetoid monitors are the anvil against which mobile
system defense boats smash an invading fleet.


Ship Description

Crew: 5 bridge crew, 3 engineers, 22 gunners, 2 medics, 10 troops

2000-ton PL Hull, DR 10000, PD 4, Total compartmentalization, 10 Turrets
with 3 missile racks each, 10 Turrets with 3 lasers each, Spinal Meson Gun,
Meson Screen (DR4105), Nuclear Damper (16 km range), Hardened Command
Bridge, Engineering, 350 Maneuver, 16 Staterooms, Bunkroom (16 personnel),
4 Utility, Sickbay, 21 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 160000 km, AESA 320000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
30 405-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 33, Dmg 5dx100(2), 1/2D Rng 41630 km, MxRng
124900 km, FP 7
Spinal Meson Gun: Exp, Acc 36, Dmg 6dx10000(!), Rng 78080 km, MxRng 234240
km, FP 4243
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 210278.5 tonnes, LMass 210375.0 tonnes, Cost MCr 1155.9,
HP 114000
Performance: Accel 0.2 G (0.2 G empty, 0.2 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
0 km/h


Design Spreadsheet

Structure	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
2000-ton planetoid hull	(2000.0)	979.6	0.0	5574.2	0.0
Tunnelling	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0
Airtight sealing	0.0	0.0	0.8	0.0	0.0
Armour: DR10000, PD4	0.0	193372.4	38.4	0.0	0.0
Total compartmentalization	1.7	195.9	0.0	0.0	0.0
20 turrets (60 spaces)	20.0	7.7	0.8	1486.4	20.0
Drive Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Engineering module	1.0	3.4	0.2	0.0	0.0
Maneuver drive (0.2G)	350.0	1269.8	101.5	0.0	3.5
Weapon Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
30 Missile Racks	(30.0)	353.7	0.5	0.0	0.0
30 405-MJ Lasers	(30.0)	212.2	20.4	0.0	0.0
Spinal Meson Gun	1512.0	13712.9	939.0	0.0	0.0
Meson Screen (DR4105)	15.0	68.0	33.9	0.0	0.0
Nuclear Damper (16 km range)	1.0	9.1	4.0	0.0	0.0
Workspace Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Hardened Command Bridge	5.0	20.5	14.5	0.0	5.0
4 utility modules	4.0	41.7	1.0	0.0	0.0
Sickbay	1.0	0.8	0.2	0.0	2.0
Hold	21.3	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0
Accommodation Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
16 staterooms	64.0	29.0	0.2	0.0	0.0
bunkroom sleeping 16 personnel	4.0	1.7	0.0	0.0	0.0
Miscellaneous Items	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Cargo	(21.3)	(96.5)	0.0	0.0	0.0
Missiles	0.0	0.0	50.9	0.0	0.0
Totals	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Fully loaded & fitted out	2000.0	210375.0	1206.8	7060.6	42.0
Unloaded with skeleton crew	2000.0	210278.5	1155.9	7060.6	8.0


(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:47:11 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Christopher Thrash please read

Chris, I've had the last five messages I sent you returned. Here is the
error message. Can you spot what the problem is?

===========================================================================


The original message was received at Sat, 1 May 1999 10:54:04 -0400 (EDT)
from ppp8582.on.bellglobal.com [207.236.125.6]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<thrash@io.com>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mx.io.com.:
>>> MAIL From:<robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
<<< 550 REJECT
554 <thrash@io.com>... Service unavailable

Reporting-MTA: dns; smtp11.bellglobal.com
Received-From-MTA: DNS; ppp8582.on.bellglobal.com
Arrival-Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 10:54:04 -0400 (EDT)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; thrash@io.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0
Remote-MTA: DNS; mx.io.com
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 REJECT
Last-Attempt-Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 10:54:08 -0400 (EDT)

Return-Path: <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Received: from [207.236.125.6] (ppp8582.on.bellglobal.com [207.236.125.6])
	by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22763
	for <thrash@io.com>; Sat, 1 May 1999 10:54:04 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: b1wiec26@pop1.sympatico.ca
Message-Id: <l03130301b34fb84eb87d@[207.236.125.30]>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990430045906.00697cb0@mail.io.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:47:48 +0100
To: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [GT:Starships] Legal Issues

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 08:32:19 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 12mm Libertad rifle

Been out of the loop for a week, but...

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 4/24/99 6:37:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:
> 
> << Name: 12mm ENL Libertad Revolver Rifle
>  Calibre: 12 x 59mm
>  ROF: Single Shot        >>
> 
> Congradulations! You re-invented the Colt revolving rifle. Seriously; nice
> design. I like the removable cylinder which the Colt didn't have (unlike
> their pistols...). How do you prevent flashfire (where the ignition sets off
> ALL the cylinders at the same time-ouch! say goodbye to your non firing
> hand)? This was so bad with the Colt that soldiers had to hold the weapon by
> the lowered loading lever....Or does FF+S not allow for this?

Well, you do what you're _supposed_ to do with cap and ball BP revolvers, put
a bit a grease on top of the rounds in the cylinders. This stops such chain
fire and also helps keep the BP fouling softer, leading to fewer jams.
Undoubtedly, in a situation where the cylinders are being reloaded at leisure,
this would be done.

This is also a lot less prevalent with paper rounds than loose ones.

OTOH, the reload times for the preloaded cylinders is far too short, as it
presumes that you're carrying loaded cylinders with percussion caps in place.
Not in MY pocket I'm not!!! But with a decent cap loader you can put caps on a
cylinder in a few seconds so I'd up the time to 10 seconds or so.

No, FF&S doesn't detail some of the fun stuff that can happen with primitive arms.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 08:45:09 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Starship Depreciation (and drop tank economics)

I was wondering how one would deprectiate the value of a starship.

Consider a free trader, MCr37.08 (CT, Book 2). Now, assuming this ship was
taken care of (regular mainentance, battle damage repaired) and it has
completed it's 40 year loan with the bank. How would you figure out it's
value? It certainly wouldn't be worth what it is new.

Next, how would the use of drop tanks effect the depreciation? This question
assumes the ideas that Ian and Gary have been discussing. That newer ships
would be designed without internal fuel tankage, in favor of drop tanks and
the older ships would have to be modified to compete. (I'm not starting a
thread about the feasabilty of this idea, it already exists as re:drop tank
economics.)

I was wondering how an older, paid for ship, would compare to a new ship
designed in the above manner. My guess is that the older ships don't have
their mortgage to pay and would be able to compete on that basis. I was also
guessing that a couple of older ships could probably be bought for the price
of one of these new ships and their combined cargo would outdo the new ship.
I don't have any doubt that a large drop-tank ship could outperform an equal
ship that uses internal tankage, but wouldn't the availablity of older ships
balance out the economics?

I guess we'd have to wait and see how depreciation works for starships...
and the effects drop tanks would have on depreciation

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)  .

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 09:47:35 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Earth's Starport

>In Traveller cannon a starport not only has too meet certain technical
>requirements it has to considered a starport to ber a starport.  Since we
do not
>(barring fringe cases) expect starships to land at these ports they are
>spaceports.

The only technical requirement for a Class E starport is a large area on
which starships can land, marked for said purpose. We already have that.
But since the facilities which would otherwise qualify for class D don't
have the expectation of starship landings, it seems that our starport 
digit is E...



     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:52:13 -0400
From: Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net>
Subject: Uniforms and Patches

The beginnings of a Traveller LRPG, has anyone run a Traveller LRPG? 
Uniforms of the Imperium ! Sounds like a potential net project. Course obtaining 
the publishing rights for all the previous created designs would be a problem.

Scott 

>>>>>>>One suggestion. For the con market, you might consider drawing up
>uniform descriptions good enough to let someone take the description
>and the patches and create an "official" uniform. That'd also help the
>folks with miniatures.

>- -- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
>------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 09:51:59 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Killer Spatulas

>>I keep a variety of swords in the kitchen. I've got a gladius for finesse
>>work and a huge tuetonic two-hander for those extra-tough jobs.
>
> I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that my wife
calls 'the >axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel (wooden grips held on
with brass fittings) >with serrated edges, a back-spike, and beveled front
edge - and a wrist thong! She >refuses to let me buy a gun because the
spatula would be much better in close >combat....

Isn't it amazing what they have at Spatula City these days? :)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:10:48 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Uniforms and Patches

I'm already working that. It shouldn't be long now that I will be able to
produce Traveller patches and other embroidered items. I don't want to turn
this message into an add. So, if you want information, just e-mail me.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)
>
> The beginnings of a Traveller LRPG, has anyone run a Traveller LRPG?
> Uniforms of the Imperium ! Sounds like a potential net project. Course
obtaining
> the publishing rights for all the previous created designs would be a
problem.
>
> Scott
>
> >>>>>>>One suggestion. For the con market, you might consider drawing up
> >uniform descriptions good enough to let someone take the description
> >and the patches and create an "official" uniform. That'd also help the
> >folks with miniatures.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 12:27:29 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

At 09:31 AM 5/2/99 +0100, you wrote:

>My personal opinion is that media outlets that splash crime stories across
>the screen to boost ratings are doing the community a disservice. But
>that's getting really off-topic.

Maybe not, Rob.  I've always wondered how powerful the media was in the 3I.
 The megacorps writeups mention a few being involved in "entertainment",
but none specifically focusing on Media.  IMO, this would be an extremely
powerfull tool to sway and shape both public opinion and effect policy change.

Then again, perhaps the reason we do not see any Imperium wide Media
companies, with the exception of TAS, is due to the backlash of the Psionic
Suppressions in the 800's.  Perhaps the media went too far in pushing the
negative aspects of psionics.  Kind of like the gun control debate where it
is not an object that is trying to be regulated, but human potential and
innate ability.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 13:54:43 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: CT character gen programs

At 03:51 PM 27/04/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Does anybody know the Url for any Character generation programs for CT?
>
        http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller

        Pick the "Software" button.  Have fun.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 09:58:24
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

At 02:19 PM 5/1/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Well, this is TTL15/GTL12 we are talking about... Maybe by then they solved
>these problems... (hmm, automated neural interface scratching devices....
>Need the neural interface to get just the right spot...)

Just a note on the concept of using drugs to solve the itching problem.. A
few years back, I had to remain motionless for a bit over four days while
being treated for massive blood clots.  I was on morphine.  Even with a
dedicated team of ICU nurses scratching whereever I told them to, I still
went literally insane by the fourth day (I pulled out my IV and tried to
walk away.  If I had pulled out the tap in my femoral artery, we would not
be having this conversation.)

A doctor later told me that a big part of satisfying an itch is the
feedback from the hand that is doing the scratching.  That's why you can't
tickle yourself, your brain knows where everything is.  So a BD equipped
trooper could use electronic massage units to keep from cramping, but the
itches will just keep getting worse, and worse...


- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 10:08:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Sylea Downport updated

Sylea Downport

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

Has been updated.  The Marine enlisted and officer ranks are now there,
along with a more streamlined look to the site.

Enjoy.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 12:09:07 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Uniforms and Patches

About this time last year I think there was a discussion here about making Traveller
uniforms.  Specifically a marine officers uniform.  Oh yea!  I was the one trying to
make it.  I found it to be too expensive to produce on my budget.  With a cost
upwards of a grand for a quality uniform.


Scott Davis wrote:

> The beginnings of a Traveller LRPG, has anyone run a Traveller LRPG?
> Uniforms of the Imperium ! Sounds like a potential net project. Course obtaining
> the publishing rights for all the previous created designs would be a problem.
>
> Scott
>
> >>>>>>>One suggestion. For the con market, you might consider drawing up
> >uniform descriptions good enough to let someone take the description
> >and the patches and create an "official" uniform. That'd also help the
> >folks with miniatures.
>
> >- --
> >Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> >shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> >leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> >
> >------------------------------

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #546
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 2 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 547



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Re: T4 stuff
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part One
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen) 
Re: Space port laws and stuff 
I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Oskrip-class Droyne Scout (GTL10)
Kroydon-class Droyne Cruiser (GTL10)
Fedmist-class Droyne Trader (GTL10)
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #537

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:46:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)

In mail you write:

>>And no, I am not anti-gun, but I am "anti-arming-idiots-freely-with-guns,"
>>but one man's idiot is another man's good friend... so how can it be done?
>>
>>--  The Roc
>
> Make possession of a deadly weapon de jure proof of intent to use deadly 
> force.

Slight problem. "Deadly weapon" as a *legal* definition covers any
object that can or has been used to kill someone. And thus includes
*far* too many everyday objects. I don't know if it was a one-time
thing or yearly report, but one of the agencies that does crime
statistics released a list of "weapons" used to kill people that year a
few years back. It was *very* long and included damn near every piece
of clothing or everyday object you could think of. I wish I had a copy
online... 

> If deadly force was justified, you are legally in the clear. This would,
> however, scotch any "but I only intended to scare her" defenses, and raise
> the charge from manslaughter to murder.

This is covered by the laws about "brandishing" a weapon in most
jurisdictions. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:50:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...

In mail you write:

> As for security staff (night watchmen and the like), if they shoot a
> criminal, I am assured that if the baddie doesn't have powder burn marks in
> his chest ("He was coming straight at me!!"), you better have a good lawyer
> Mr Security Guy... the warning given me when I was a patrolling security
> officer, by several of my copper mates.

A former room-mate worked security, and at one time worked armed
security in a bank. He said that his boss had told him that if he ever
had to shoot, he (the boss) wanted there to be only one story (my
friend's)!

Of course, this is in the US. 

BTW, here in the US, *armed* security is actually pretty rare. Banks,
armored cars, and other "trouble magnets" are pretty much it. 

Silly legal point. Security guards in this state (like many others)
aren't allowed to carry nightsticks. So instead they all carry those
5-cell maglite flashlights, which are both heavier and harder. Ain't
the law wonderful?

I bet there are similar "loopholes" in the laws on many high law level
worlds. :-)
 
"That's not a weapon! It's a tool to open boxes, cut wrapping, and cut
up boxes for disposal." (Referring to a *large* knife... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:57:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

In mail you write:

>>Les_Howie@keane.com wrote:
>>> That map was actually one of the main attractions for me back when I ran
>>> traveller.  I would cut the maps out and tape them into globes so the
>>>players
>>> could get a "from space" look at the planet they were arriving at.  Gave
>>>it a
>>> nice feel.
>>
>>I have to do this!  I think I'm going to run down to the printers,
>>make some color copies on cardstock and do that.
>>
>>Thanks for posting this idea.
>>
>>--
>>Bloo
>
> Then here's another trick for you.
>
> If you make the size of each map proportional to the size of the world,
> players get a better idea of how big the world really is. I did this by
> making the number of hexes along the side of a triangle the same as the
> world's size digit, which makes each hex about 1000km.
>
> Print out a map of Earth to the same scale, and players have a much better
> idea how large a size 10 world is (or how small a size 1 rock is).

Product idea!

"Globes" made of some sort of plastic with a surface similar to
drafting film (sort of a matte finish that will take ink and pencil
easily, but can also be erased and reused). Make them in 10 sizes for
size 1 thru size 10 worlds. 

The ref could transfer maps of commonly visited worlds to them, and
otherwise just use them for size references.

Which reminds me. After seeing a TV item about a scale model of the
solar system in some town in the midwest, I got to thinking about
trying to draw up a description of Traveller solar systems in such
terms. 

For example:

A size ?? star is ?? feet across. 
Orbit 0 is ?? feet from the center of the star
A size 8 planet is ?? inches across
A small GG is ?? inches across
A large GG is ?? inches across
A parsec is ??? thousand miles

Would folks be interested? Yes, I'll do both English and metric. I'm
thinking something like size 8=20 cm, which makes it about 8 inches.

ps. In the TV show, the guy had used the size of the planetariums dome
as the Sun. Then he found businesses at the right distances, and
arranged to have a placard there along with a properly sized model of
the planet. Earth was about the size of a grapefruit. Jupiter was in a
big, high ceilinged lobby at the local TV station and was something
like 5 feet across!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 10:40:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...

At 09:50 AM 5/2/99 PST, you wrote:

>Silly legal point. Security guards in this state (like many others)
>aren't allowed to carry nightsticks. So instead they all carry those
>5-cell maglite flashlights, which are both heavier and harder. Ain't
>the law wonderful?

In San Francisco, it is perfectly legal to carry a sword.  The law
specifies that blades shorter than 8" are forbidden.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:47:32 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

In a message dated 99-05-02 06:28:16 EDT, you write:

<< > I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that my
 >wife calls 'the axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel (wooden grips 
 >held on with brass fittings) with serrated edges, a back-spike, and 
 >beveled front edge - and a wrist thong! She refuses to let me buy a 
 >gun because the spatula would be much better in close combat....
 
 
 Truth is stranger than fiction. >>

If you want mean non-weapons try a pitch fork.  Or a 'potting' shovel, small, 
but with a serrated edge and a shart point, its even cupped.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:48:22 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

In a message dated 99-05-02 10:37:04 EDT, you write:

<< No, the Anu use midden-heaps too.  :-) >>

Anu?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:54:03 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part One

"alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com> posts:

>Campaign: The Visitor's,  Part One

<snip>

>[Aside: The adventure is set in Foreven Sector: I have no information
>in this sector, so the Referee can make it up as he pleases.]

 There are several sets of Foreven sector data out there, all unofficial. The 
official data (dotmap, national borders and seven worlds) was in 
Imperiallines #1. I have two subsectors on my site 
(http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html) and Berka has done most of the 
Rim-Trailing quarter of the sector. I don't have his URL handy. There is at 
least one other set of data out on the Web as well.

>
>Tien * Ziaf * Gvur * Tugi
>***************************
>Far  * For  * Spin   * Den
>***************************
>Tele * Beyo * Troj * Reft
>
>Tien = Tienspevnekr
>Aiaf = Aiafrplians

 Ziafrplians

>Gvur = Gvurrdon
>Tugl = Tuglikki
>Far = Far Frontiers
>For = Foreven
>Spin = Spinward Marches
>Den = Deneb
>Tele = Telehfaeikh

 Ooh, a new name for the Vanguard Reach. Have you cleared this with the 
Eslyat or the Duchy of Trelyn? Since they are the major non-human race and 
the largest Imperial Client of the sector respectively, I'm sure they'd like 
to hear about it...

>Beyo = Beyond
>Troj = Trojan Reach
>Reft = Reft


GC

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:55:03 EDT
From: NordskAM@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

test

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 15:43:49 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen) 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Stump <hyperc@mailcity.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 2:44 AM
> Subject: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
> 
> 
> > I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that my
> >wife calls 'the axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel (wooden grips 
> >held on with brass fittings) with serrated edges, a back-spike, and 
> >beveled front edge - and a wrist thong! She refuses to let me buy a 
> >gun because the spatula would be much better in close combat....
> 
> 
> Truth is stranger than fiction.
> 

And some of us are stranger than truth.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 15:45:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Space port laws and stuff 

>    I've been in and out of the arts for 20 (yikes!) years.  I've never head
> a good explaination for a sai being a farm implement. :-)
> I've also have several LEOs tell me the best reason for "The Club" (an
> anti-car theft device) is that it gives you a legal reason to carry a steel
> billy club in your car.

A sai is an Okinawan pitchfork.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:50:12 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

> > I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that my
> >wife calls 'the axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel (wooden grips 
> >held on with brass fittings) with serrated edges, a back-spike, and 
> >beveled front edge - and a wrist thong!

I have one of these, too (or very similiar).  Great for scaring the 
dogs away from the grill when we are BBQ'ing. Weighs about 5 
pounds (or seems to when there are a lot of burgers going).

- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:26:39 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Oskrip-class Droyne Scout (GTL10)

Oskrip-class Droyne Scout (GTL10)
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller

Ship Description


Crew: pilot, gunner


100-ton SL Hull, DR 100, PD 4, Turret with 3 lasers, Command Bridge,
Engineering, 19 Maneuver, 3 Jump, 20 Fuel, Droyne Stateroom, 1 Utility,
Vehicle Bay (Air/Raft), 15.9 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
3 360-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 6dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 32720 km, MxRng 98610
km, FP 4
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 228.1 tonnes, LMass 305.2 tonnes, Cost MCr 31.1, HP 16200
Performance: Accel 2.3 G (3.0 G empty, 1.2 G overloaded), Jump 2, Air Speed
3676 km/h


Design Spreadsheet

STRUCTURE                         Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
100-ton streamlined hull          (80.0)       9.1       1.2     929.0
0.0
Airtight sealing                     0.0       0.0       0.1       0.0
0.0
Armour: DR100, PD4                   0.0      49.0       0.6       0.0
0.0
1 turret (3 spaces)                  1.0       0.7       0.1      74.3
1.0
DRIVE MODULES                     Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Engineering module                   1.0       3.7       0.3       0.0
0.0
Jump drive (2 parsecs)               3.0      10.9       9.3       0.0
0.1
Jump tanks                          20.0      23.6       3.2       0.0
0.0
Maneuver drive (2.3G)               19.0      58.6       3.0       0.0
0.3
WEAPON MODULES                    Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
3 360-MJ Lasers                    (3.0)      32.7       3.1       0.0
0.0
WORKSPACE MODULES                 Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Command Bridge                       5.0      18.4       9.6       0.0
1.0
1 utility module                     1.0      10.4       0.3       0.0
0.0
Vehicle Bay                          2.1       4.5       0.2       0.0
0.0
Hold                                15.9       0.0       0.0       0.0
0.0
ACCOMMODATION MODULES             Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Droyne stateroom                    12.0       6.5       0.0       0.0
0.0
MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS               Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Fuel                              (20.0)       0.0       0.0       0.0
0.0
Cargo                             (15.9)    (72.1)       0.0       0.0
0.0
Air/Raft                           (2.0)     (5.0)     (0.1)       0.0
0.0
TOTALS                            Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Fully loaded & fitted out           80.0     305.2      31.2    1003.4
2.0
Unloaded with skeleton crew         80.0     228.1      31.1    1003.4
1.0


(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:27:09 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Kroydon-class Droyne Cruiser (GTL10)

Kroydon-class Droyne Cruiser (GTL10)
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller

Ship Description


Crew: 3 bridge crew, 9 engineers, 12 gunners, 1 auxiliary crew


1200-ton USL Hull, DR 1000, PD 4, 2 Turrets with 3 missile racks each, 10
Turrets with 3 lasers each, Basic stealth, Basic emission cloaking,
Hardened Command Bridge, Engineering, 579 Maneuver, 48 Jump, 360 Fuel, 3
Droyne Staterooms, 3 Utility, Vehicle Bay (Gig), 135 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
30 360-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 6dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 32720 km, MxRng 98610
km, FP 4
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 5686.7 tonnes, LMass 6369.6 tonnes, Cost MCr 397.0, HP 89400
Performance: Accel 3.3 G (3.7 G empty, 2.4 G overloaded), Jump 3, Air Speed
0 km/h


Design Spreadsheet

STRUCTURE                         Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
1200-ton hull                   (1200.0)      45.3       2.5    4645.2
0.0
Airtight sealing                     0.0       0.0       0.6       0.0
0.0
Armour: DR1000, PD4                  0.0    2702.9      35.8       0.0
0.0
12 turrets (36 spaces)              12.0       9.0       0.5     891.9
12.0
Basic stealth                        0.0      13.5       4.5       0.0
0.0
Basic emission cloaking              0.0      13.5       4.5       0.0
0.0
DRIVE MODULES                     Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Engineering module                   1.0       3.7       0.3       0.0
0.0
Jump drive (3 parsecs)              48.0     174.1     148.8       0.0
1.9
Jump tanks                         360.0     424.5      57.6       0.0
0.0
Maneuver drive (3.3G)              579.0    1785.5      92.6       0.0
9.6
WEAPON MODULES                    Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
6 Missile Racks                    (6.0)      70.7       0.1       0.0
0.0
30 360-MJ Lasers                  (30.0)     326.5      30.9       0.0
0.0
WORKSPACE MODULES                 Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Hardened Command Bridge              5.0      21.1      15.6       0.0
3.0
3 utility modules                    3.0      31.3       0.9       0.0
0.0
Vehicle Bay                         21.0      45.3       1.5       0.0
0.0
Hold                               135.0       0.0       0.0       0.0
0.0
ACCOMMODATION MODULES             Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
3 Droyne staterooms                 36.0      19.6       0.1       0.0
0.0
MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS               Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Fuel                             (360.0)       0.0       0.1       0.0
0.0
Cargo                            (135.0)   (612.2)       0.0       0.0
0.0
Gig                               (20.0)    (70.6)     (5.5)       0.0
1.0
Missiles                             0.0       0.0      14.8       0.0
0.0
TOTALS                            Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Fully loaded & fitted out         1200.0    6369.6     417.4    5537.0
25.0
Unloaded with skeleton crew       1200.0    5686.7     397.0    5537.0
12.0


(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:27:50 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Fedmist-class Droyne Trader (GTL10)

Fedmist-class Droyne Trader (GTL10)
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller

Ship Description


Crew: pilot, engineer, 2 gunners, medic, steward
Passengers: 12 high passengers


200-ton SL Hull, DR 100, PD 4, Turret with mixed weapons, Empty Turret,
Bridge, Engineering, 16 Maneuver, 4 Jump, 20 Fuel, 3 Droyne Staterooms, 1
Utility, 77.5 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km
Sensors: PESA 48000 km, AESA 160000 km, Radscanner 3200 km

Statistics: EMass 242.9 tonnes, LMass 594.4 tonnes, Cost MCr 26.2, HP 24900
Performance: Accel 1.0 G (2.4 G empty, 0.3 G overloaded), Jump 1, Air Speed
2721 km/h


Design Spreadsheet

STRUCTURE                         Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
200-ton streamlined hull         (160.0)      13.6       1.8    1393.5
0.0
Airtight sealing                     0.0       0.0       0.2       0.0
0.0
Armour: DR100, PD4                   0.0      75.3       1.0       0.0
0.0
2 turrets (6 spaces)                 2.0       1.5       0.2     148.6
2.0
DRIVE MODULES                     Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Engineering module                   1.0       3.7       0.3       0.0
0.0
Jump drive (1 parsec)                4.0      14.5      12.4       0.0
0.2
Jump tanks                          20.0      23.6       3.2       0.0
0.0
Maneuver drive (1.0G)               16.0      49.3       2.6       0.0
0.3
WEAPON MODULES                    Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
2 Missile Racks                    (2.0)      23.6       0.0       0.0
0.0
WORKSPACE MODULES                 Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Bridge                               2.5       7.8       4.0       0.0
1.0
1 utility module                     1.0      10.4       0.3       0.0
0.0
Hold                                77.5       0.0       0.0       0.0
0.0
ACCOMMODATION MODULES             Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
3 Droyne staterooms                 36.0      19.6       0.1       0.0
0.0
MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS               Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Fuel                              (20.0)       0.0       0.0       0.0
0.0
Cargo                             (77.5)   (351.5)       0.0       0.0
0.0
Missiles                             0.0       0.0       4.9       0.0
0.0
TOTALS                            Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
Crew
Fully loaded & fitted out          160.0     594.4      31.2    1542.2
6.0
Unloaded with skeleton crew        160.0     242.9      26.2    1542.2
2.0


(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:43:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In mail you write:

>> In a message dated 5/1/99 2:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
>> 
>> << 
>>  menn (a company?) held a chokepoint on a river  >>
>> A Battalion...The story- West of Honor......
>
> A company, Company A of the 501st Provisional Battalion, under Lt
> Harlan 'Hal' Slater, at Ft Beersheba.  Funny you should mention that;
> I'm in the process of rereading West of Honor at the moment...

Great! Since I can't find my copy, could you post the words to the ine
marine "march"? That's the one about "We've left blood on the..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:06:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

In mail you write:

> Getting some biodata:
>
> One of the scout's missions is to get physiological data on the Visitor's.
> You'd love to get a physical inspection of them, but they always refuse
> "for cultural reasons".  What to do?
>
> You could get some sensor's: heat-radiation, some way to get an X-ray
> photograph using nothing but ambient light (is this possible at TL 15?).
> Hidden photography, to see if their gait is differ's from a regular human,
> and if so how (it doesn't... sorry).  You want some way to get an accurate
> mass reading.

Millimeter wave radar will pentrate a lot of things (like the siding on
typical houses!). That's why it's the next big thing in survielance. It
let's you see thru walls!

With some wavelength tweaking, and computer enhancement, you should be
able to get enough info about the Visitors to make a biologist *really*
suspicious.

Likewise, with properly deployed low level radiation sources (or high
level "flash" sources) and an array of detectors linked to a computer,
you could likely get a low res CAT scan of everything inside the
carefully prepared room. 

That would *really* let the cat out of the bag, since you'd have
*definite* imagery of the soft tissues and the ability to remove
various layers (like the false skin) via computer. 

> Without a body opened up for surgery or an autopsy, it's *hard* to
> determine what the internal organs of a being is.

Not as hard as you think. *We* can pull off the stunts mentioned above,
or else we are close to being able to. It just requires some creative
thinking and some good engineering. 

For that matter, given the availability of neutrino sensors, I bet that
there's some sort of medical imager that uses them at higher TLs.

You've also overlooked the Neural Activity Sensor from one of the Scout
books. It ought to be pretty revealing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:23:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #537

In mail you write:

>> "Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
>> 
>> > (2)  X-Files variant:  Golf is a Vilani game.  A Vilani ship crashed
> off
>> > the Orkney Islands in Pictish times.  The survivors were able to
> salvage
>> > their golf clubs and manual.  After founding the Pictish culture and
>> > making the bagpipe a more efficient weapon, they settled down to relax
>> > and taught the Scots how to play golf.
>
> One quibble:  The Scots are not the only people who play bagpipes.  Clearly
> the improved Vilani pipes spread quickly throughout Europe and the Middle
> East.

Bagpipes are one of the inventions (such as the "spearthrower" aka
atl-atl and woomera) that has been made independently several times. 

While spanish pipes and Scottish pipes may be related, it's *really*
doubtful that Indian and Nepalese pipes are related to them (though
they are likely related to each other).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #547
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 2 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 548



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: T4 stuff
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)
re: Spaceport laws and such
Re: Copyright 
re:HG to GURPS conversion
T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...
Re: Spaceport laws and such
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe
re: Spaceport laws and such
Cyber Jock Itch
Re: Today is Camerone Day 
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Cyber Jock Itch
Re: Today is Camerone Day 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:09:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 4/30/99 8:34:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> nimrod@santech.com writes:
>
> << 
>  (Actually in the book it was on Hadley, right after the Senate turned out 
>  the 42nd) >>
> Really? I thought it was on Tanith, when JCF was showing  off the troups to 
> Banister...time to break out Falkenbergs Legion again...

Probably *both*. 

> OBTrav...I wonder if a Trav senario could be made with Pournelle material?...

Easily. Try to find a copy of "West of Honor". That's the book that has
Falkenberg's first combat assignment. I think it was originally printed
by Laser Books, but it may have been reprinted later. If not, haunt the
used bookstores.

Other useful bits to steal for any unit descended from the Foreign Legion.

"You are in the Legion to die. The Legion will send you where you can
die" (or something like that) on the wall in the wardroom.

"March or die!" (old Legion slogan from the desert campaigns)

There's also a nice marching tune from one of the books, but I can't
find the words at the moment. "We've left blood on the sands of
twenty-five worlds, built roads on a dozen more..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:36:48 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

>In a message dated 99-05-02 10:37:04 EDT, you write:
>
><< No, the Anu use midden-heaps too.  :-) >>
>
>Anu?
>-Stephen

Tribe in the Arctic. A typo on your part, a prediliction for bad jokes on
mine...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:39:42 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)

>In mail you write:
>
>>>And no, I am not anti-gun, but I am "anti-arming-idiots-freely-with-guns,"
>>>but one man's idiot is another man's good friend... so how can it be done?
>>>
>>>--  The Roc
>>
>> Make possession of a deadly weapon de jure proof of intent to use deadly
>> force.
>
>Slight problem. "Deadly weapon" as a *legal* definition covers any
>object that can or has been used to kill someone. And thus includes
>*far* too many everyday objects. I don't know if it was a one-time
>thing or yearly report, but one of the agencies that does crime
>statistics released a list of "weapons" used to kill people that year a
>few years back. It was *very* long and included damn near every piece
>of clothing or everyday object you could think of. I wish I had a copy
>online...

Learn something every day -- I wasn't aware of this.

What I mean, IMTU, is something _designed_ as a weapon. And, IMTU, this is
mostly applied to ranged weapons.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:17:09 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Spaceport laws and such

Robert Prior wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Deadly weapon" is a device primarily designed to inflict injury and/or
death on someone.  Yes, there are gray areas, but I'm running a game here,
not changing Canadian law (which, generally, I'm pretty content with).
<snip>
A shotgun on a frontier settlement is a hunting tool. A shotgun in the
middle of Regina's largest city is a weapon. An FGMP-15 is _always_ a
weapon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that "_always_"
to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:21:38 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright 

>There is a misunderstanding here, I thought it was Vilani copyright laws
>that kept the First Imperium static at GTL10 for ten millennia.

As opposed to the Third Imperium which has progressed a whole two tech
levels in 1000 years?

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:19:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:HG to GURPS conversion

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> writes:

>I'm trying to make sense of some HG designs ( I don't have HG.  Only FFS2
>and GT), and have the following questions:
>
>When the book lists a laser battery, so they mean one 1dt laser?  One
>turret worth of lasers (3)?  One bay?  Something else?

No - it is a variable number of lasers - max is three in a single turret,
but you could have up to ten turrets in a battery. USPs are based on
numbers, type (beam or pulse) and TL. Laser bays aren't in HG2 although
Steven Hudson did suggest some unofficial designs a while back on
ct-starships.

>What's an energy battery?

Energy weapon (fusion or plasma gun). Also available as a bay.

>What's a repulsor battery?

Opposite of a tractor - uses grav projector to push a missile away/break it
up. A point defense system only in a bay.

>Defenses:  How much DR should a heavy pierced plate hull provide?  What
>about a NOTB 666 meson screen.  What's the range of an Absalom Nuclear
>Damper?  A Finnalians one?

? What?
>On a related note, can anyone post or point me to a decoder for the HG USP
>(2nd ed. preferably)

Try CT book 5 :-)

1st ed is different.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:30:27 EDT
From: NordskAM@aol.com
Subject: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale

I am putting my entire Traveller collection up for sale! Plus, a handful of 
Twighlight: 2000 titles, Combined Arms miniatures rules, Paranoia and 
Werewolf: The Apocalypse. After 15 years of playing Traveller, I have no more 
time to play RPGs, and nobody to play them with with :-(  

That's almost 50 sourcebooks, supplements, adventures and magazines at no 
more than $1 to $5 each (U.S.) plus mailing cost, prices are non-negotiable. 
Some of these have barely been touched, most are used but in great condition 
and a few are dog-eared (but still very useable). 

First come, first served. Those who respond first to this e-mail will get 
primary consideration (please e-mail me directly, not the mailing list).

Here they are (I have only one copy of the following titles):

Marc Miller's Traveller/T4 

Basic rulebook (paperback)							
$5

Traveller: New Era (all paperbacks)

#301 Survival Margin: Gateway to the New Era 		$5
#303 Battle Rider (boxed set)						$5
#305 Smash & Grab								
$5
#306 Traveller's Players" Forms						$3
#307 Traveller Referee's Screen						$3
#308 Battle Rider (boxed set)						$5
#309 Path of Tears							 	
	$5
#310 Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide			$5
#311 World Tamer's Handbook						$5
#312 Vampire Fleets						 		
$5
#313 Striker II								 	
	$5
#314 The regency Sourcebook						$5
#315 Star Vikings							 	
	$5
#318 Aliens of the Rim: Hiver and Ithklur				$5
#320 Regency Combat Vehicle Guide				$5
#330 The Guilded Lilly (adventure)					$5

Megatraveller (all paperback)

#219 Knightfall (adventure)							
$5
#223 Assignment: Vigilante (adventure)				$2
#224 The Diaspora Sector (supplement)				$2
#1017 Empress Marava (supplement)				$2
#872 Starship Operator's Manual Vol. 1				$5

"Classic" Traveller (all paperback)

Basic rules - (two booklets: Rules Booklet, 
			   Charts and Tables Booklet; 
			    Mission on Mithril/Shadows)			$3
Book 0 - (two booklets: Understanding Traveller, 
		   Understanding Traveller)					
Free
Book 4 - Mercenary								
	$1
Book 5 - High Guard								
$1
Book 6 - Scouts									
$1
Supp.4 - Citizens of the Imperium					$1
Supp.8 - Library Data (A-M)							
$1
Supp.11 - Library Data (N-Z)							
$1
Doube Adventure 3 - The Argon Gambit/Death Station		$1
Ordeal by Eshaar								
	$1

Traveller-Related Magazines

The Traveller's Digest #7							
	$1
The Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society #22			$1
The Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society #23			$1
Traveller Chronicle #4								
$1
Traveller Chronicle #5								
$1
Traveller Chronicle #9								
$1
Traveller Chronicle #10 (Children of the Earth vol.1)	$1
Traveller Chronicle #11 (Children of the Earth vol.2)	$1
Traveller Chronicle #12								
$1
Challenge #70									
	$1
Challenge #71									
	$1
Challenge #72									
	$1
Challenge #73									
	$1
Challenge #74	 								
	$1
Challenge #75									
	$1
Challenge #76									
	$1
Challenge #77									
	$1

Twilghlight:2000 (does not include edition 2.2)

2nd Edition - T:2000 and Merc:2000 Referee's Screen	$1
2nd Edition - Castle by the Sea (adventure)			$1
2nd Edition - American Combat Vehicle Handbook	$1
1st Edition - The Free City of Krakow (adventure)		$1
1st Edition - The Ruins of Warsaw (adventure)		$1

Combined Arms (paperback)

Basic rules									
		$3

Paranoia 2nd Edition (paperback)

Basic rules									
		$3

Werewolf: The Apocalypse 2nd Edition (hardcover)

Basic rules									
		$5

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 17:34:00 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...

At 09:50 AM 5/2/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Silly legal point. Security guards in this state (like many others)
>aren't allowed to carry nightsticks. So instead they all carry those
>5-cell maglite flashlights, which are both heavier and harder. Ain't
>the law wonderful?
Interesting... Around here, security guard aren't allowed to carry a
flashlight that has more than (I think) 3 C size batteries...  NYS is
pretty good at closing loopholes like this...

ObTrav: What kind of obvious-to-improvise tools/weapons are banned at
various law levels?  

I know in NYC, you can't carry a baseball bat around the street unless you
also have a ball...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 16:37:29 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such

Walter G. Smith wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> A shotgun on a frontier settlement is a hunting tool. A shotgun in the
> middle of Regina's largest city is a weapon. An FGMP-15 is _always_ a
> weapon.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that "_always_"
> to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
> settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)

Please remind me to avoid worlds on which the FGMP-15 _might_ be
considered a "hunting" weapon.... ;-)

OTOH, such worlds might make excellent safari worlds, for those with the
wherewithal (and cojones) to hunt prey of this type.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 17:37:04 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

At 09:57 AM 5/2/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Which reminds me. After seeing a TV item about a scale model of the
>solar system in some town in the midwest, I got to thinking about
>trying to draw up a description of Traveller solar systems in such
>terms. 

I don't know about the Midwest, but here (Ithaca, NY) we have just such a
thing (It was dedicated to Carl Sagan who was a prof at Cornell).  The Sun
is about 10" across, the small planets are about 1/6" to 1/8" across, the
gas giants are maybe 1/8" to a 1/4".  The inner planets are on the same
block as the sun, Pluto is on the other side of town (admittedly, it's a
small town).  Someone figured out that if we wanted to add Alpha Centauri
to this and make it to scale, it would have to be in Hawaii.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 17:41:53 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: re: Spaceport laws and such

At 05:17 PM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that "_always_"
>to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
>settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)

Hmmm, something like the Bandersnatchi from Niven's space?  Or
dinosaur-like beasties? 

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:58:17 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: Cyber Jock Itch

Regarding Battledress and itches and so forth:

I was just thinking about this very important Traveller problem.  I was
contemplating how difficult it would be for space marines or combat armored
troops to stay in their armor for any length of time (like a week to clean
out enemy bunkers on a strategic moon orbiting the only gas giant in an
important system).  Many military situations are desparate until the tide of
battle turns decisively in one way or the other, and there won't be time to
take off all the pieces of battledress of combat armor, scratch the Jock
Itch in the Far Future, then put all the pieces back on again.  The same
problem occurs with using the toilet.  Here are the solutions:

1) a topical anesthetic for the epidermis, administered automatically by the
suit or at the user's command.
2) implanted cyberware with a sensation damper.
3) psionics (for the Zhodani or the naturally discrete imperial)

and my favorite, the solution for those unfortunate space faring cultures
who don't have the tech for the solutions above:

3) a military ideology based on Zen Bhuddist techniques for disciplining the
mind and body, developed to armor the human mind against the agony of space
travel.  This would cause such a cultural/attitude gulf between the military
and the population it served.  Also they would have to live on a liquid diet
and nutrition pills so they would only urinate, making easier for their
suits to remove their biological waste.

Hmmm... a half crazed space marine legion living on the blood of their
enemies, with only their mystical Zen discipline keeping them from the
yawning abyss of madness...

The inspiration for the Zen Bhuddism applied to military indoctrination came
from the book Voice of the Whirlwind by Walter Jon Williams, who did the
outstanding cyberpunk supplement Hardwired.  I sincerely wish he would do a
supplement featuring Voice of the Whirlwind.

Thanks all.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 17:56:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day 

> In mail you write:
> 
> >> In a message dated 5/1/99 2:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
> >> 
> >> << 
> >>  menn (a company?) held a chokepoint on a river  >>
> >> A Battalion...The story- West of Honor......
> >
> > A company, Company A of the 501st Provisional Battalion, under Lt
> > Harlan 'Hal' Slater, at Ft Beersheba.  Funny you should mention that;
> > I'm in the process of rereading West of Honor at the moment...
> 
> Great! Since I can't find my copy, could you post the words to the ine
> marine "march"? That's the one about "We've left blood on the..."

We've left blood in the dirt of twenty-five worlds
We've built roads on a dozen more.
And all that we have at the end of our hitch
Buys a night with a second-class whore.

The Senate decrees, the Grand Admiral calls
The orders come down from on high
It's "On Full Kits" and sound "Board Ships'
We're sending you where you can die.

The lands that we take, the Senate gives back
Rather more often than not
So the more that are killed, the less share the loot,
And we won't be back to this spot.

We'll break the hearts of your women and girls,
We may break your ass as well
Then the Line Marines with their banners unfurled
Will follow those banners to Hell.

We know the devil, his pomps and his works
Ah yes! we know them well!
When we've served out our hitch as Line Marines
We can bugger the Senate of Hell!

Then we'll drink with our comrades and lay down our packs
We'll rest ten years on the flat of our backs
Then it's "On Full Kits" and "Out of Your Racks"
You must build a new road through Hell!

The Fleet is our country, we sleep with a rifle
No one ever begot a son on his rifle
They pay us in gin and curse when we sin,
There's not one that can stand us unless we're down wind
We're shot when we lose and turned out when we win
But we bury our comrades wherever they fall
And there's none that can face us though we've nothing at all.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 99 16:59:14 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

On 05/02/99 at 08:45 AM,  "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net> said:

>I was wondering how one would deprectiate the value of a starship.

>Consider a free trader, MCr37.08 (CT, Book 2). Now, assuming this
>ship was taken care of (regular mainentance, battle damage repaired)
>and it has completed it's 40 year loan with the bank. How would you
>figure out it's value? It certainly wouldn't be worth what it is new.

I answer your question, IMO and IMTU, but you'll have to wade
through about 90 lines of detail before you find it <grin>...

Equipment Records

When major pieces of equipment (including ships) are purchased an
equipment record should be created.  These records may be kept in
book form or on cards in a card file, but in either case each piece
of permanent equipment should have a record showing:

Name 
Description

Finance Information
  Periods
  Periodic Interest Rate
  Cost of equipment
  - Amount of down payment
  Financed Amount
  - Periodic payment
  
  Payment Number       
  Current Balance due**
  
Depreciation Information  
  Original Value of Equipment
  Estimated trade-in (or scrap) value
  Estimated life of Equipment
  Yearly depreciation*

  
  Current Value of Equipment

Each time a payment is made, it should be entered on the equipment
card.  At the end of each year depreciation should be computed,
entered on the card and a new "Current Value of Equipment" figured.

* Two depreciation techniques you can use are the straight-line and
the declining-balance methods.  There are others, but I won't detail
them.

  Straight-line method:  
    (Original Cost - Trade/Scrap Value) / Estimated Life

  Declining-balance method:  Remaining Value / Estimated Life * 2 
  
Straight-line is much easier to use, because there is only one
initial calculation, but it doesn't handle well equipment that
declines rapidly in value during its first few years.  At the end of
the equipment's estimated life, it will be valued at the estimated
scrap value.

Declining-balance is more difficult to use, because a recalculation
is made each year based on the currently remaining value, but it
does more accurately reflect the actual value of most equipment.  At
the end of the equipment's estimated life, it will generally be
valued at slightly more than the estimated scrap value.
    
** The Current Balance Due is the Previous Balance Due minus the
portion of the payment applied to principle this term .  You find
this by multipling periodic interest times Previous Balance Due and
subtracting that from the periodic payment.  (Spreadsheets *do* come
in handy for this sort of thing.  ;->)

Example:      

"A" type Free Trader

Finance Information
  Periods  [monthly]  (40 yr*12)        480
  Periodic Interest Rate (5%/12)      0.004%    
  Cost of equipment              37,080,000
  - Amount of down payment        3,708,000
  Financed Amount                33,372,000
  - Periodic payment                160,919
 
  Payment Number                         12 
  Current Balance due            33,103,478 
  
Depreciation Information  
  Original Value of Equipment    37,080,000
  Estimated scrap value (10%)     3,708,000
  Estimated life of Equipment           60 years
                                Straight-line   Declining-Balance
  Years owned                             1               1
  Yearly depreciation*              556,200       1,236,000 
  Current Value of Equipment     36,523,800      35,844,000
  
  Value remaining after 40 yrs   14,832,000       9,554,533
  Value remaining after 60 yrs    3,708,000       4,850,029


Does this help?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 18:11:36 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Cyber Jock Itch

Chris Peers wrote:

> Hmmm... a half crazed space marine legion living on the blood of their
> enemies, with only their mystical Zen discipline keeping them from the
> yawning abyss of madness...

Uh, contradiction here?  "Half crazed . . . Zen discipline . . ."  ?

Ok.  Only "half" crazed.
- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 18:09:18 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day 

> > << 
> >  (Actually in the book it was on Hadley, right after the Senate turned out 
> >  the 42nd) >>
> > Really? I thought it was on Tanith, when JCF was showing  off the troups to 
> > Banister...time to break out Falkenbergs Legion again...
> 
> Probably *both*. 

No, it was in 'The Mercenary', on Hadley.  The locals were curious as to *why* 
Sgt Major Calvin was lecturing the troops about Camerone Day.  They *didn't* 
like the answer they got -- Falkenburg's Legion *WAS* the 42nd CoDominium 
Marine Regiment after the CD 'disbanded' it.

> > OBTrav...I wonder if a Trav senario could be made with Pournelle material?...
> 
> Easily. Try to find a copy of "West of Honor". That's the book that has
> Falkenberg's first combat assignment. I think it was originally printed
> by Laser Books, but it may have been reprinted later. If not, haunt the
> used bookstores.

Using Striker, it's fairly simple.  Falkenburg's Legion is equiped with 7mm 
ACRs, cloth armor/ combat environment suits, at about TL10, TL11ish.  Map 
boxes are availiable, every trooper has at least a 10 watt radio in his 
helmet.  It's almost as if they were *designed* for Striker/Mercenary.  AAMOF, 
I have my suspicions that Andy Keith patterned the Caledon Highlanders (a merc 
regiment in Reavers Deep) around Falkenburg's Legion...

As for the naval tech, beam lasers and heplar thrust systems are common.  The 
*only* 'gotcha' is their interstellar transport, the Alderson Drive, though 
it's *VERY* simular to normal Traveller jump drive with some exceptions:

1.  You have to be at an Alderson point to use it for FTL.

2.  Most systems only have 1 or 2 Alderson points.

3.  Alderson Drive is instantaneous, but it takes time to get to the Alderson 
points.  These seem to be *everal* AUs out from the primary.  This takes care 
of the '1 week in jumpspace' thing.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #548
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 2 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 549



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
hydrogen ice
Re: hydrogen ice
Shipboard Recreational Facilities
Short Adventure: Man of the Earth
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Today is Camerone Day 
Re: Shipboard Recreational Facilities
Re: Kroydon-class Droyne Cruiser (GTL10)
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:19:20 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)

 
> >> Make possession of a deadly weapon de jure proof of intent to use deadly
> >> force.
> >
> >Slight problem. "Deadly weapon" as a *legal* definition covers any
> >object that can or has been used to kill someone. And thus includes
> >*far* too many everyday objects. I don't know if it was a one-time

Interesting. You could add a statistical requirement--that a
statistically significant number of the "weapons" have been used in
the last year to commit a crime. Very few (if any) guns would meet
this requirement, however, since only about 0.0001% of guns in US
circulation injure people (280+ million guns is a number i have
heard, and ~30k injuries/deaths in anger). 

ObTrav: I wonder if high law level worlds might _require_ arms. Everybody 
does service then keeps weapon as a reserve/deputy police, etc. Law level
is high then because there is little crime (the guy you rob would
shoot you, or if not him, anybody else around). Kinda like
Switzerland where there are many REAL military weapons in
circulation. An interesting spin on law level. (or would you rate
that world as low law level?)

- -merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 99 17:16:01 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

On 05/02/99 at 01:47 PM,  SRKOALA@aol.com said:

>If you want mean non-weapons try a pitch fork.  Or a 'potting'
>shovel, small,  but with a serrated edge and a shart point, its even
>cupped. -Stephen

As I understand it, during WWI the favored melee weapon wasn't the
bayonette, it was the lowly entrenching tool.  Having seen one, I
don't wonder why.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 99 17:22:50 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

On 05/02/99 at 11:06 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> One of the scout's missions is to get physiological data on the Visitor's.
>> You'd love to get a physical inspection of them, but they always refuse
>> "for cultural reasons".  What to do?

I was thinking about this adventure idea this afternoon, btw great
job *again* Alvin, and it occurred to me that a nasty solution to
the problem is staring these PC's in the face.  This *is* set in the
TNE milleu and during the height of the aggressive Virus era,
so...;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 18:24:28 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

At 05:16 PM 5/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On 05/02/99 at 01:47 PM,  SRKOALA@aol.com said:
>
>>If you want mean non-weapons try a pitch fork.  Or a 'potting'
>>shovel, small,  but with a serrated edge and a shart point, its even
>>cupped. -Stephen
>
>As I understand it, during WWI the favored melee weapon wasn't the
>bayonette, it was the lowly entrenching tool.  Having seen one, I
>don't wonder why.
Three words: Spetsnaz Throwing Shovel.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 18:56:15 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: hydrogen ice

We're discussing hydrogen ice. In FF&S1, the table for the density of fuels
(page70) states that the density of LHyd is .07...if a ship's fuel tanks can
freeze LHyd down to ice, wouldn't that make its density 1?  If so, that
would greatly increase how much LHyd a ship could carry, according to FFS1.
Your thoughts are welcome.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 18:16:11 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: hydrogen ice

Chris Peers wrote:
> 
> We're discussing hydrogen ice. In FF&S1, the table for the density of fuels
> (page70) states that the density of LHyd is .07...if a ship's fuel tanks can
> freeze LHyd down to ice, wouldn't that make its density 1?  If so, that
> would greatly increase how much LHyd a ship could carry, according to FFS1.
> Your thoughts are welcome.

Nope.  I don't have the exact figures on hand, but getting a fluid to
solidify (a.k.a. "freeze") doesn't change its density by more than a
percentage point or so.  Water, for example, is very nearly the same
density frozen (slightly less, in fact) as liquid.  Molten steel is
about the same density as solid steel.

OTOH, carrying water (or water ice) for future refueling gives you more
hydrogen per cubic meter than LHyd (the figures were posted a week or
two ago).

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:19:32 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: Shipboard Recreational Facilities

Imagine the draft for the next Frontier War...
I've been drafted into the Imperial Navy!
Me too!
What's your job going to be!
I'm going to be a spinal mount meson gun technician! how about you!
Let's see what it says here...er...personal comfort specialist.

A very good treatment of this "personal comfort" (er...companionship) aspect
of shipboard recreation is found in the Bio of a Space Tyrant series of
books.  They're by Piers Anthony or Poul Anderson.  In his universe, the
navy encourages the coed crew to find "special friends", but if they can't
they can go to the officers' or enlisted "personal comfort lounge".  ie
brothel, right on the ship, civilians employed by the military as shipboard
crew in this capacity.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:27:07 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Short Adventure: Man of the Earth

Short Adventure: Man of the Earth

095-1120
in orbit of Van Buren, X324000-0, fifth planet in Risek System

(Risek 2712: Rhylanor:Spinward Marches  2712 A325579-A)

Baron Khalifa Abdullah stood on his yatch's bridge, surveying the
EVA crews flitting across the long-obsolescent cruiser.  Rented out
from one of the government's of the nearby Porozol system, most of 
it's weaponry has been long stripped and sold, but it's spinal meson 
mount kept and retooled to serve as an underground excavation device.  

Every single hour of that stripped cruiser's use is costing Abdullah's 
family hundred's of thousand's of credit's.  True, the entire project - 
building a private subterranean habitat for both the new family 
residence and impressing selected guest's - will be lucky to get 
under the two billion credit mark, but his house didn't get to it's
current level of wealth without watching where every last credit went,
even in the familiy's private projects.

A burbling sound rose from the nonhuman pilot.  "My lord, the 
_Draconic_ is ready to fire, as per the modified timetable"

"Yes, yes, tell them to just do it.  Hilel, please contact the Director
on the private channel and remind him that I have delegated local 
authority to him, so he has no need to have me second all his actions."

"No problem, Uncle."

**************************************

Director Ptahmes Nen-Ptu signed off, rolling his eyes.  He act's on his
own initative, and he get's a two-hour grilling session about unnecessary 
expenses.  He carefully act's permission before doing something major, and 
he's pushed to do his own thing, as if he was a shy little boy.  Yes, if you want
the big-time, reputation-making jobs you HAVE to work with Nobility, but 
they're such a pain to deal with!

He walked over to the meson post, ignoring the painful eye-sores of
the largely-gutted weaponry stations. For additional control and fine-tuning,
the typical naval firing station has been expanded to a five-man mini-bridge,
complete with a seperate washroom and microwave oven.  Nen-Ptu stepped
up to the post, after kneeling twice to the large holographic idol "blocking"
the platform's entrance.

A few word's, some quick technical direction and the board's came up alive.
Because this is detail meson demolition work at a stationary target - not just 
blasting away at a moving ship - it took a good hour before firing started.
The very high-grade densitimeters set up on the ground base relayed data
back to the _Draconic_, which was used to modify meson strength and targeting.

On Van Buren herself, the 52 base personnel continued at their duties.  Only thirteen
people, mainly support personnel, was at the base proper during the third firing
sequence.  This was a good thing, as this was the time that the meson cannon
"misfired", striking the base and killing four people.

*****************************************

127-1120

The PC's arrive on Van Buren via shuttle from the Risek mainworld.
They are a small team of Protected Forces (ie hostile-env) mercenaries,
hired by the Baron to train his 20 local household troops to operate in 
underground, low-grav envrionments.   The Baron is rather on the 
cheap side, but he does have a reputation for sticking to the 
agreements he sign's, and that to the PC's is more important than
big money with little trust. Moreover, a peaceful cadre posting 
is a good way to relax from the last disaster they had on Rhylanor.  
(Reminder: double the fee's when being hired by infighting 
corporate fractions!)

The troops are eager to learn, and shouldn't cause a problem.
Their trained/regular level of experience is as anti-insurgency 
infrantry on Risek, they are used to the low gravity, but spent 
their time patrolling the domed settlements, and very little time 
outside in their vacc suits.  The PC's are to teach them 
aggressive patrolling of the barren landscape,
and familarize them with battlesuits, plasma weapons, 
field communications (man-to-base and man-to-ship) and
hand-held rocketry. 

The current contract is for two months; there is a base level of pay, 
and bonuses based on demonstrated proficiency of the newly
trained troops.  The equipment was purchased by the Baron: 
damaged plasma guns, battlesuits etc will be charged against
the player's fee, but they can use as much ammo as they need to
get the expertise desired.

*****************************

The cause of the misfired meson gun was traced to an altered firing
submodule of the targeting program: the out-system programmer 
who did this is currently being pursued by a variety of bounty hunters
(by the Baron, by the Porozol government who provided the ship,
and the corporation who who was in charge of that submodule's 
programming.),  with some assistance from the Ministry of Justice

The reason that the programmer corrupted the code is unknown, 
and will have to be determined by interrogation after capture.
Currently in the subsector there is no organized anti-Imperium
movement capable of financing such an act: therefore, it's almost 
certainly related to the Baron's business interest's.  No competitor
has claimed responsibility, or declared a Corporate War: the 
MoJ's investigation is on hold pending the capture of the programmer.

No act was committed against the Imperium per se, so the matter is
viewed as a local affair, although assistance and information will
be shared with the Baron as a courtesy.  The wealth and authority
the Imperium gives the Baron as liege should be enough to insure
the Baron's protection, although MoJ will get involved if his person 
or family is attacked/killed.

[AKA The Baron is a big boy, and should be able to handle this sort of
thing himself: if not, then the Imperium will soon get a new and hopefully
more capable Baron. 

The Imperium is simply stretched too thin for the Emperor to babysit
the Nobility: the MoJ has enough problems pursuing the latest biowar
incident, unoffical slavery/kidnapping rings ( a good TL15 scientist is 
going for 150,000 credits I hear...), making sure that the hundreds of 
major and minor wars being fought in a given subsector are all follow-
ing the rules, hunting down the latest Navy kickback scheme, 
breaking up a highly illegal Corporate trade cartel, keeping down the 
local anti-Imperial terrorist groups, checking out various religious/mystical
groups for Psionic activity, etc., etc.

Because the Imperium (IMTU) strongly discourages major civil 
bureaucracies from forming within the Imperial government - it tends 
to undermine Noble authority, cloud Noble responsibility, and cost 
entirely too much to maintain - the Nobility does not get a personal MoJ 
security section from the Emperor until the subsector Duke level.
After all, the Noble is getting ample wealth from his holding -- 
let him look to his own security.  And if he can't, why should he be 
entrusted with the security of the Imperium?  Let natural selection 
handle it - there are a LOT of people with plenty of bucks and brains 
who would LOVE to get their hot little hands on an Imperial Title.  

Of course, things are different if the Noble is placed by the Emperor in 
a dangerous situation (aka a battlefield, an area known to revolt against 
Imperial authority, etc) , or if he and/or his family is personally attacked 
or killed as a direct attack against Imperial authority: in such cases, the
Emperor is willing to act, probably very harshly.  If the Noble is merely 
killed in a local dynastic struggle, a duel, or due to "family matters", 
well, them's the breaks.  All IMTU, of course. ]


************************************

203-1120

As the PC's near the end of their two-month term, the Referee may want to
intruduce an attack of some kind or another.  However, right now I'm using 
this as a "typical cadre mission" so this adventure will end with a test.

In the Imperium, just about any service you want is available for sale,
from "Professional Administrators" whom a noble can hire on a two-year
contract to govern his world as he makes the journey to Capital and back
["A Noble Patent is a non-negotiable requirement for this influencial position",
as the advertisments in Imperial Governance Magazine goes] to Mercenaries
to protect your world and train the locals.  In this case, Baron Khalifa 
has secured the services of Executive Outcomes, LIC.  

Yes, the market for mercenaries is so huge that there is a number of
organizations which exist solely to judge their performance.

Executive Outcomes prefer's to evaluate their charges in three phases:
physical drills, Virtual Reality tests, and a live-fire excercise: they place 
rather little emphasis on paper/datapad testing.  They would prefer to have
a aggressor group, simulate a fight between the aggressor's and the household
troops, and judge the results but the Baron isn't willing to pay that much cash.

The small EO group sent to Van Buren are quite experienced: the PC's
might recognize them from a former life, on some battlefield or field camp.
They carry much high-tech goodies (VR boxes and the like), which are guarded
by EO men to protect them from tampering.  The test itself will be pretty accurate,
and will determine just how much the PC's will be paid.

****************************

After the ticket is done, the Referee can again send the rested and
hopefully now liquid PC's into the next bloody fray.  IF they have done 
well with the Baron, you can increase their reputation a little after a month or so
(it takes time for interstellar reputations to grow: the speed of Jump and all that).

If they have done poorly, decrease their reputation by a greater amount
among the Nobility - bad news has more impact, is more trusted, 
and is better remembered than good news.


_____________________________________________________

Alvin Plummer

Pr 22:1 A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, 
              and loving favour rather than silver and gold.  

_____________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:39:37 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

In a message dated 5/2/99 3:57:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
felix@felixcafe.com writes:

<< 
 I have one of these, too (or very similiar).  Great for scaring the 
 dogs away from the grill when we are BBQ'ing. Weighs about 5 
 pounds (or seems to when there are a lot of burgers going).
  >>

	Dr Stodgicus, the etymologist, chimes in.

	The word "spatula"  is a Latin word meaning "small spatha"  and a 
spatha, of course was the term for a late Roman cavalry sword, which itself 
was named for its resemblence to a spaqh - "spathe"  a large flat tool used 
to take bread out of an oven (Greek).

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:42:47 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In a message dated 5/2/99 5:05:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< 
 Easily. Try to find a copy of "West of Honor". That's the book that has
 Falkenberg's first combat assignment. I think it was originally printed
 by Laser Books, but it may have been reprinted later. If not, haunt the
 used bookstores.
  >>
	West of Honor, along with "The Mercenary" were last reprinted in a 
single volume called Falkenberg's Legion, which may still be in print, I 
occasionally have seen it in new bookstores in the last year or two.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:34:22 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day 

> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" 
> > > OBTrav...I wonder if a Trav senario could be made with Pournelle
material?...
> > 
> > Easily. Try to find a copy of "West of Honor". That's the book that has
... 
> Using Striker, it's fairly simple.  Falkenburg's Legion is equiped with
7mm 
...
>

A few months ago, I found a GURPS conversion somewhere in the links off the
SJ Games site.  I've got a hard copy, but I didn't keep track of the
address.  It's a natural for the GT players.

A general thing about the Legion, (which I mentioned months ago, but
still..) is that they fought Australians in Syria in 1941.  It was as close
to a 'fair' 'pure infantry' fight you can get, with little air and
artillery support for either side, and with what there was fairly evenly
matched.  Infantry numbers were fairly matched, too, in a series of
battalion versus battalion engagements, with the Legion in strong defensive
positions in mountainous terrain.  They lost.

One of these days, I'm going to fight this one in Striker.  And in WWII
miniatures, too.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 19:50:14 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Recreational Facilities

At 07:19 PM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>A very good treatment of this "personal comfort" (er...companionship) aspect
>of shipboard recreation is found in the Bio of a Space Tyrant series of
>books.  They're by Piers Anthony or Poul Anderson.  In his universe, the

It's Piers Anthony

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 17:37:17 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kroydon-class Droyne Cruiser (GTL10)

thank you!!!


>From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
>To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Subject: Kroydon-class Droyne Cruiser (GTL10)
>Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:27:09 +0100
>
>Kroydon-class Droyne Cruiser (GTL10)
>Designed by Robert Prior
>
>This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller
>
>Ship Description
>
>
>Crew: 3 bridge crew, 9 engineers, 12 gunners, 1 auxiliary crew
>
>
>1200-ton USL Hull, DR 1000, PD 4, 2 Turrets with 3 missile racks each, 10
>Turrets with 3 lasers each, Basic stealth, Basic emission cloaking,
>Hardened Command Bridge, Engineering, 579 Maneuver, 48 Jump, 360 Fuel, 3
>Droyne Staterooms, 3 Utility, Vehicle Bay (Gig), 135 cargo
>
>Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
>Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
>30 360-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 6dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 32720 km, MxRng 98610
>km, FP 4
>Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60
>
>Statistics: EMass 5686.7 tonnes, LMass 6369.6 tonnes, Cost MCr 397.0, HP 
>89400
>Performance: Accel 3.3 G (3.7 G empty, 2.4 G overloaded), Jump 3, Air Speed
>0 km/h
>
>
>Design Spreadsheet
>
>STRUCTURE                         Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
>Crew
>1200-ton hull                   (1200.0)      45.3       2.5    4645.2
>0.0
>Airtight sealing                     0.0       0.0       0.6       0.0
>0.0
>Armour: DR1000, PD4                  0.0    2702.9      35.8       0.0
>0.0
>12 turrets (36 spaces)              12.0       9.0       0.5     891.9
>12.0
>Basic stealth                        0.0      13.5       4.5       0.0
>0.0
>Basic emission cloaking              0.0      13.5       4.5       0.0
>0.0
>DRIVE MODULES                     Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
>Crew
>Engineering module                   1.0       3.7       0.3       0.0
>0.0
>Jump drive (3 parsecs)              48.0     174.1     148.8       0.0
>1.9
>Jump tanks                         360.0     424.5      57.6       0.0
>0.0
>Maneuver drive (3.3G)              579.0    1785.5      92.6       0.0
>9.6
>WEAPON MODULES                    Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
>Crew
>6 Missile Racks                    (6.0)      70.7       0.1       0.0
>0.0
>30 360-MJ Lasers                  (30.0)     326.5      30.9       0.0
>0.0
>WORKSPACE MODULES                 Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
>Crew
>Hardened Command Bridge              5.0      21.1      15.6       0.0
>3.0
>3 utility modules                    3.0      31.3       0.9       0.0
>0.0
>Vehicle Bay                         21.0      45.3       1.5       0.0
>0.0
>Hold                               135.0       0.0       0.0       0.0
>0.0
>ACCOMMODATION MODULES             Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
>Crew
>3 Droyne staterooms                 36.0      19.6       0.1       0.0
>0.0
>MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS               Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
>Crew
>Fuel                             (360.0)       0.0       0.1       0.0
>0.0
>Cargo                            (135.0)   (612.2)       0.0       0.0
>0.0
>Gig                               (20.0)    (70.6)     (5.5)       0.0
>1.0
>Missiles                             0.0       0.0      14.8       0.0
>0.0
>TOTALS                            Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area
>Crew
>Fully loaded & fitted out         1200.0    6369.6     417.4    5537.0
>25.0
>Unloaded with skeleton crew       1200.0    5686.7     397.0    5537.0
>12.0
>
>
>(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
>Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)
>
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:58:03 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

> >> The problem with a laser (especially the fixed forward mount of the
> >> Rampart) is that if you can shoot him, he can shoot you.
> >
> >Not if he zaps him from orbit.  And the rampart is a helluva lot faster 
than
> >a grav tank (even a Trepida).  And the grav tank is probably armed w/ a 
high
> >energy weapon.  It's the ol classic game of shoot while in your optimum
> >range, but outside the enemy's.
> 
> The problem with the "zap from orbit" scenario is why use a fighter at all?
> For that matter, why use a grav tank?

Well, a rampart is only a "fighter" in the drawings, rather than the tactics, 
though the airframe and avionics could let it behave like one, though it has 
NO reason to ever do what you'd see on "Top Gun."

> If all grav based vehicles can be pinpointed and destroyed by orbital fire,
> no on ewill build or buy grav tanks.

It's a matter of cost and scale and mission.  The Rampart cannot hold 
*ground* while a Trepida (and even better, an Astrin) can.  A rampart (much 
less a Close Escort or Destroyer) is 1/3 more expensive than a Trepida (7 
times the price of an Astrin), while a CE is almost 15 times as expensive as 
a Trepida and 50 times as expensive as an Astrin.  A DD is about 100 times as 
expensive as the Trepida and an Astrin a helluva lot more.  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:58:09 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >start to come back eventually.  By the time of a GTL13 Third Imperium, why
> >shouldn't drop tank shipping be the norm?  Just because you don't want it 
to?
> > When it doesn't have to have any effect on your campaign (unless they
> >compete regularly w/ the megacorps)?
> 
> First of all, *everybody* competes with megacorps, if indirectly.

You have to be joking.  Anything the megacorps want, they can easily get from 
a free trader scale operation, either absorbing them or simply undercutting 
them through value.  Picking up their crumbs (or hte little morsels they just 
don't think is worth the trouble) is hardly the same as "competing"

> First of all, a lot of ships are collateral for a lot of loans. Now, if the
> value of this collateral falls, then previously safe loans are suddenly
> looking risky. Banks will be wanting other collateral, or for you to
> refinance.

Well, if we're talking about megacorps (which we are), it doesn't likely 
apply.  A megacorp probably loans internally, amongst subsidiaries and 
subdivisions.  They are their own bankers.

> Fourthy, you dont have to scrap your internal tankage ships, you could
> refit them for drop tanks. Rip out the tankage, add in pipes, and add more
> cargo. It'll be ugly, they'll need time and money to refit and they will
> probably be less efficient than a custom drop tank ship, but it's doable.



> >Which ignores the question asked.  Why can't you even *try* to find a way 
for
> >drop tanks to work, instead of laying a case for why they don't.  You can't
> >come up w/ a couple more disasters or serious flaws in drop tank tech that
> >pushes them off from mass usage before 1130 or so, saving your campaigns 
> >from the Doom That Is Drop Tanks?
> 
> Gary, some of us prefer to avoid problems, rather than handwave later.

Which means you also prefer to simply ignore what's been a part of Traveller 
as long as there's been Traveller.  Why?  What are your vital interests here? 
 That you don't even want to *try*?  This is very interesting.

<snip>
> Of course, this requires that you write off the references in that %$#% TNS
> article to them being extensivly used in Core, etc.

Of course, even *that* is better than simply ignoring the TNS articles 
entirely.

> >Higher jump ships still have a much higher initial cost, which puts them 
out
> >of reach of the average small timer.  There is very little to say that the
> >megacorps are NOT using bulk drop tank freighters for the majority of
> >shipping.
> 
> Gary, you've got GT:FT. Use my munchkinned Broker (p90 sidebar) and try to
> borrow a hundred million via a bond issue. It isnt too much of a problem.

A 100 MCr?  It should be, for Joe Free Trader. YMMV (and apparently it does).

> A Ditzie Spof class needs 200 dtons of fuel, so lets take the Collapsible
> tank and scale it up to 200 dtons. Turns into KCr 666 expenditure, plus the
> 200 dtons of fuel at Cr 350 per is KCr 70 (OK, I'm beinding the rules here.

Bending?  You're breaking, if not completely ignoring. ;-)  Collapsible tanks 
are not usable for jumps.

> If you assume drop tanks are even vaguely reusable, then Ganisiirdi is
> going to need a new room on his gallery *real* soon.

Which we're told specifically that they're NOT.  But ok.  ;-)

Now, the cost of taking cargo from Mercator to Glisten is Cr 2220 using
'standard' freight rates.

At these rates, the Ditzie Spof class will get KCr 504 revenue. We need KCr
200 to pay off the bondholders, so we have KCr 300 to pay for 200 dtons of
drop fuel and to provide surplus profit. Given that fuel costs Cr 750
delivered to the 100 diameter limit (GT:FT p66), we should manage this nicely.

Of course, the real money is made when something commercially signifigant
happens on either world, and Ganisiirdi is the first to know, because his
ship carried the news ...

> >Err... the megacorps would control their own facilities.  Small fries would
> >have to make do w/ whatever the starport/locals and/or a 3rd party would 
put
> >out.  Neither would be able to compete w/ a megacorps financial wielding.
> >
> 
> See the GT:FT p29 sidebar ('Government Intervention') for an alternate view.

I already did.  I've had Far Trader longer than you. ;-)  The "sector duke" 
in question probably has a stake in the megacorp.  Remember, the 
***Emperor*** has a stake in them, too, and if .  Megacorps are exceptions by 
the very definition.

> >Nope.  In any case, as Far Trader points out, all the free trader is doing 
is
> >picking up teh crumbs left behind by the megacorps anyways (or for those
> >worlds/routes insignificant to rate big time traffic).
> >
> 
> GT:FT isnt limited to just free traders, unlike previous trade and commerce
> rules. You can use whats in there to handle any scale of trade.

Of course.  I'm referring to Free Traders.  If your players plan on taking on 
a megacorp, (and your campaign isn't munchy), I pity them.

> >> There is another explainiation. It seemed like a good idea at the time, 
and
> >> the designers didnt bother to run through the implications.
> >
> >Except the doubts were laid on them from the beginning, too.  It's jumping 
to
> >conclusions and grappling them onto an uncanonical j-theory that dooms 
them.
> >The "implications" on the future of Traveller economics are quite 
debatable,
> >given safety and tech considerations.
> >
> > 
> 
> FUD worked real well against the railroads, and thats the comparison I'm
> using.

Too bad it's not the one *I'm* using. ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #549
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 2 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 550



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Tigress BatRons in SM (was: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Battledress...
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Guns & other strange laws...
re: Spaceport laws and such
Hunting Dinosaurs
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Commercial Contact between District 268 and the Sword Worlds
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Milieu 0 hardcover
other strange laws...
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities was 
Re: Space port laws and stuff 
Re: G:T Far Trader
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav 
re: Spaceport laws and such
Looking for Atlas of the Imperium
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: Spaceport laws and such
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:58:04 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Tigress BatRons in SM (was: Economics of Drop Tanks)

> >Average of *2* fleets per subsector (1 regular, 1 colonial), but the Domain
> >of Deneb only has *1* BatRon of Tigresses (supplement 9, pg 38), though the
> >norm is 1 per sector (same reference).
> 
>   That's a bad quote; it says one in the _Spinward Marches_.

Not really, though IYO it could be my interpretation that's bad.  If there is 
gererally one per sector, and it's mentioned that the "Spinward Marches" only 
has one, which lacking an Archduke could mean for just the sector, but sounds 
odd IMO.  One of them things not given "proper" consideration?  ;-)

Or do you mean fleets?  Could you clarify?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:03:46 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, 3 May 1999 3:13
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)



>A doctor later told me that a big part of satisfying an itch is the
>feedback from the hand that is doing the scratching.  That's why you can't
>tickle yourself, your brain knows where everything is.  So a BD equipped
>trooper could use electronic massage units to keep from cramping, but the
>itches will just keep getting worse, and worse...
>
>
>--
>
> Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
>     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/
>

Ohhhh I don't know... I get a lot of satisfaction from having itches
scratched by my wife, and the itches go away as well as if I did it?  I
understand the "tickle oneself" part, but itches?  I recall bamboo back
scratches (and rulers, pens, and other handy sized items) work just as fine
on me.  I must be some kind of dermal freak, or do others respond to back
scratchers and the ministrations of a close individuals (I also have lady
friends of the family that have done these little favours) fingernails?

If I'm not out of the ordinary, I'd assume that mechanical devices in a suit
of BD would work just as well?  After all, it's also true that if you ignore
an itch long enough, it will go away (been there, done that), it's just that
when you require every ounce of concentration (like in a near-combat
situation -- you don't hear of someone needing to scratch in the middle of a
fire-fight [chemical reactions not withstanding]), it is a undesirable
distraction.  And having tried out my chef friend's T.E.N.S unit, I would
think that the muscular reaction to the surface of the skin would deal with
most itches (the muscle twitches, lightly or a visible jump depending upon
the setting -- I intend on getting one myself).

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 20:06:28 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 05/02/99 at 08:45 AM,  "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net> said:
> 
> >I was wondering how one would deprectiate the value of a starship.
> 
> >Consider a free trader, MCr37.08 (CT, Book 2). Now, assuming this
> >ship was taken care of (regular mainentance, battle damage repaired)
> >and it has completed it's 40 year loan with the bank. How would you
> >figure out it's value? It certainly wouldn't be worth what it is new.
> 
> I answer your question, IMO and IMTU, but you'll have to wade
> through about 90 lines of detail before you find it <grin>...
> 
<<snips detailed description of depreciation>>

Of course, you could just WAG it, based on the analogy of automobiles:

A typical new-car loan is for five years, after which the vehicle
generally retains 50% of its new value, adjusted by vehicle model and
condition.  Since a typical starship loan is for forty years, we may
guesstimate that a starship retains about 50% of its value at forty
years, adjusted for model and condition.

After that, figure that for each additional payoff period, the value
declines by another 50%, assuming normal maintenance, unless collector's
considerations come into play.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:18:39 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Guns & other strange laws...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, 3 May 1999 3:30
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...



>A former room-mate worked security, and at one time worked armed
>security in a bank. He said that his boss had told him that if he ever
>had to shoot, he (the boss) wanted there to be only one story (my
>friend's)!
>
>Of course, this is in the US.
>

Similar here in Oz (Queensland [Q'ld]), powder burns *and* only one side of
a story!

>BTW, here in the US, *armed* security is actually pretty rare. Banks,
>armored cars, and other "trouble magnets" are pretty much it.
>

In Oz (Q'ld), it is the individual security personel who decides if he wants
to carry.  To do so, he must be a licensed security officer, in employment
*as* a security officer, and be a member of a shooting club.  However, a
store detective might not have a firearm, but a mobile patrolman would.
But again, if you want to talk silliness, I never needed the hassle of
having a firearm of my own, but bak in the mid 80's when I did security
patrols, I was allowed to carry a shotgun onto an alarmed premises (when
raised) or into a suspected B&E on my route!  However, my copper mates would
still require the powder burns should I have had to use it!!

>Silly legal point. Security guards in this state (like many others)
>aren't allowed to carry nightsticks. So instead they all carry those
>5-cell maglite flashlights, which are both heavier and harder. Ain't
>the law wonderful?
>

I was never sure about that aspect as a security guard, I simply used oneof
those huge maglights anyway!  never needed a real nightstick.

>I bet there are similar "loopholes" in the laws on many high law level
>worlds. :-)
>
>"That's not a weapon! It's a tool to open boxes, cut wrapping, and cut
>up boxes for disposal." (Referring to a *large* knife... :-)
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

And again, knives have recently come under the scrutiny of the law.  They
are now illegal to carry unless you have a plausible excuse (a fishermen on
location or travelling to or from the location would have a legal excuse,
but a fisherman simply wandering around town/shopping centre has none!).
One of my copper mates loves this law... he has a huge collection of knives
now!

- --  The Roc

PS:  As another point of interest, it was found in Q'ld that a practitioner
of BDSM (bondage) could carry a knife in case he was playing such games and
needed to remove the rope from his lover in an emergency!!!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 21:05:05 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Spaceport laws and such

At 05:17 PM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Robert Prior wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>"Deadly weapon" is a device primarily designed to inflict injury
and/or
>death on someone.  Yes, there are gray areas, but I'm running a game
here,
>not changing Canadian law (which, generally, I'm pretty content
with).
><snip>
>A shotgun on a frontier settlement is a hunting tool. A shotgun in
the
>middle of Regina's largest city is a weapon. An FGMP-15 is _always_
a
>weapon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that
"_always_"
>to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
>settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)

	Aventine settlement. Spine Leopards. And the gantua, during drought.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:27:30 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Hunting Dinosaurs

- -----Original Message-----
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, 3 May 1999 7:58
Subject: re: Spaceport laws and such


>At 05:17 PM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that "_always_"
>>to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
>>settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)
>
>Hmmm, something like the Bandersnatchi from Niven's space?  Or
>dinosaur-like beasties?
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>      Gearhead-in-Training
>

FGMP's for hunting dinosaur-beasties!?  When I was a lad, I hunted those
with a toothpick and a chopstick!  Youngens today...

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 18:41:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>> First of all, *everybody* competes with megacorps, if indirectly.
>
>You have to be joking.  Anything the megacorps want, they can easily get from 
>a free trader scale operation, either absorbing them or simply undercutting 
>them through value.  Picking up their crumbs (or hte little morsels they just 
>don't think is worth the trouble) is hardly the same as "competing"

  I assume that what's meant is that having your price level determined by
comparison to the big players high-efficiency operations _is_ competition.

...
>> First of all, a lot of ships are collateral for a lot of loans. Now, if the
>> value of this collateral falls, then previously safe loans are suddenly
>> looking risky. Banks will be wanting other collateral, or for you to
>> refinance.
>
>Well, if we're talking about megacorps (which we are), it doesn't likely 
>apply.  A megacorp probably loans internally, amongst subsidiaries and 
>subdivisions.  They are their own bankers.
...

  This is workable at best only in the short term; if the megacorp is fully
self-financed then subsidizing ops that lose money with no hope of long-term
improvement means cutting investment to genuinely profitable projects or at
the least failing to provide capital to outsiders at market interest rates.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 20:59:36 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Commercial Contact between District 268 and the Sword Worlds

At 03:24 PM 5/2/1999 +1100, Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>This is part of a wider project of mine - writing up a 'Commercial Guide to
>the District', which will be a very detailed look at District 268.
>Donations of world descriptions, NPCs and so on will be gratefully accepted
>... I want a page per world with it's exports, notable imports, NPCs, short
>notes on government and other important persons and trade routes (including
>routes for some of the Free Traders of the district). I'm doing this off my
>own bat (I'm beginning a campaign around there), but I'm open to offers
>from BITS or whoever.

Don't forget that Paul Sanders has what was originally to have been a box 
set (similar to Tarsus and Bowman) on Faldor, written by Andrew Keith.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 21:18:26 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

Another great series based on the future legion, is the Fifth Foreign 
Legion.  The first two were written by both the Keith brothers, and the 
third was written by Andrew Keith solo.  They were great books.


Jimmy Simpson
       nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
      and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                          -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 22:13:04 -0700
From: "George Royal" <groyal@isoa.net>
Subject: Milieu 0 hardcover

I recently purchased the Milieu 0 hardcover and in the First Survey part
in the comment section for UWPs, what does full data mean?


Thanks 
george

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 21:44:42 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: other strange laws...

Consider a place like Texas.  Not sure about our law level, but it is still
a felony for carrying wirecutters.
Dates back to the range wars and fence cutting.
Wonder what type of silly laws some worlds might have for the equivilent of
wire cutters.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 23:01:49 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities was 

>
>>>Library (gee for a crew of 5000 you'd think they'd have decent
>>>library right?  It SUCKED!!!  The area with books was about 15x15'  I've
a
>>>better selection, and probably more books!  Needless to say, I had a
locker
>>>full of books.)
>>
>>Just goes to show how things kind differ from ship to ship. John F.
Kennedy
>>(The last conventionally powered carrier) has a huge library, with
probably
>>thousands of books. Maybe 1000 sqft.
>
>That's a pretty decent size for the population of an aircraft carrier.
>I wonder if they actually had a librarian to run the place? I've always
>had a fondness for the Navy, and I *am* a librarian in real life...
>(Then again, it would never work for me: I'm not a US citizen, I'm too
>old to enlist, and without my glasses/contacts I'm blind as a post...)

The librarians were RP (Religious Program) Petty Officers. Their primary
duties were to assist Navy Chaplains in their duties, doing paperwork and
such. Librarian was a collateral(extra) duty.

Obtrav: Does the Imperial Navy, Army and Marines have Chaplains?  What about
Librarians. Even in our computerized world I sometimes can find information
faster by visiting my public library for assistance at the research desk,
than searching online.

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:12:16 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Space port laws and stuff 

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>>    I've been in and out of the arts for 20 (yikes!) years.  I've never head
>> a good explaination for a sai being a farm implement. :-)
>> I've also have several LEOs tell me the best reason for "The Club" (an
>> anti-car theft device) is that it gives you a legal reason to carry a steel
>> billy club in your car.
>A sai is an Okinawan pitchfork.

   Ya, right...That's what they tell the local po-leece.  When they leave,
they use a real pitchfork.
It's a twin pronged jutte.

I've spent enough time on a farm not to buy that one.



- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"The Clintonites, like pod people from a "Star Trek" adventure, have peeled 
off the thin layer of centrist rhetoric that they wore for the presidential 
campaign. We now learn that they are people genetically bred to inhabit the 
public sector. Their oxygen source is the moisture of taxes, which are
remitted 
by the aliens in the private sector." -- Wall Street Journal February 19, 1993
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:12:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader

On 04/30/99 18:52:40 you wrote:
>
>At 12:17 AM 5/1/99 +1100, you wrote:
>
>>Can someone rig up a computer program to generate all the trade routes in
>>the Marches and to get trade quantities going thru each starport ? My brain
>>is hurting just trying to do the numbers for Bowman Belt.
>
>Seconded!!!!!

	Give me time, I'm working on a "trade atlas" for the Marches but RL makes too many demands 
on my time.  I've got District 268, Glisten, 5 Sisters & Sword Worlds done.  Next up: Trin.
	Interesting note: the Sworld Worlds are a notable economic power house.  Their TL isn't high 
but they have so many hi-pop, industrial worlds that their total economic output is formidable.

- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:17:41 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

Don't forget the twin translations of

IHTFP

My oldest kid tells me that this is a very popular saying at MIT...

hmmm...I smell an adventure hook here...

"We don't care you were, or were you came from.  That it is the past."
"You are here to learn engineering for the Emperor."
""You are in the Institute to engineer. The Institute will send you where
you can engineer." 

You can end up with a band of geeks for hire, like H. Beam Piper's story,
"The Mercenaries."



- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
The reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 23:11:30 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

>Date: Sun, 02 May 99 17:22:50 -0500
>From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
>Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

>On 05/02/99 at 11:06 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>>> One of the scout's missions is to get physiological data on the Visitor's.
>>> You'd love to get a physical inspection of them, but they always refuse
>>> "for cultural reasons".  What to do?

>I was thinking about this adventure idea this afternoon, btw great
>job *again* Alvin, and it occurred to me that a nasty solution to
>the problem is staring these PC's in the face.  This *is* set in the
>TNE milleu and during the height of the aggressive Virus era,
>so...;->

>Eris

Oooohhhh, We Be Bad....

The Visitor's *do* tend to discourage traders, so with a little
rumour management it should be able to keep the spread of
Virus to only Cong Su and the Visitor's starship's.  

Right now (1134) there are very, very few captured versions of
Virus which are still alive, and it can't be found in Foreven Sector:
the PC's will have to travel back to the Domain (the interstellar
nation on the front lines of Virus) to get a copy.  Getting that copy of
Virus is almost impossible: the Navy has absolutely no 
problem vaping your ship because "they acted funny", and the
Domain custom's inspector's will happily quarrentine your ship
till the heat death of the universe if that's what's needed to be 100%
sure that you're Virus Free.

Oh, incidentally, deliberatly transporting a copy of Virus illegally
is a capital offence - and the guard's might not wait till the trial
("He was trying to escape, Sir - honest!")

If your PC's are really into being wild and wooly, they can head to
Gvurrdon Sector (just above the Marches) and get Virus there: 
half the sector is "semi-clean", but the Vargr Extent's isn't called
a Virus Sponge for nothing....

[ Sometimes, I wonder if the Vargr even noticed... ]

That hungry sucker need's to be caged good and tight, and brought 
over to Cong Su.  You don't want just a Doomslayer "KillThemNow"
virus, but also a little something a little more developed, that will wait 
quietly until *after* they are over the Visitor's homeworld.... 

Then, give them the quiet one first, let that ship leave, then give them 
Ole' Killer next.

Remember, folks, Don't Try This At Home.  At 1134, there are maybe
100 people (out of one Trillion sophont's in the entire Domain) who 
can actually pull this off with more than a 1% chance of success 
(and they are all Really Busy just now...)

And the Visitor's *are* aware of Virus, but since they have only 
report's from the Domain to go on, and are only at TL A in 
computer science, you have a pretty good chance of making the
pass.

Man, though, it will be an awful sight (in both senses of the word
"awful" and "awe-full")  watching those 3.2 km ship's crash into
the cities.

And immediately the PC's will have to blockade the planet, being 
sure to destroy every other jump-capable ship trying to leave, or 
else they personally will be the cause of destroying civilization 
*THIS* side of the Claw, too.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126
Reply to: aplummer@idirect.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:19:40 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav 

>What I mean, IMTU, is something _designed_ as a weapon. And, IMTU, this is
>mostly applied to ranged weapons.

According to one of the guys I game with, a Pontiac falls under the
defination of 'ranged weapons.'

Twisted little bastard...reminds me of me. :-)


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco." 
                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:23:13 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: re: Spaceport laws and such

>Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that "_always_"
>to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
>settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)

Back in the early days of TNE, I designed some really big honking guns for
use on a Reavers' Deep planet with really big and nasty animals.  This was
for the Pocket-Empire group.  It was the kind of planet were you didn't
visit the laterine with a 15mm revolver to convince the critters you needed
some privacy.

Now run this idea to Doug's "Dinosaurs in Space" idea...



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend 
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY 
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting. 
              http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:26:53 -0400
From: "Steven W. Nadeau" <swnadeau1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Looking for Atlas of the Imperium

Anybody know any good places on the net to get it and other CT Traveller
stuff?

Thanks

sturm
check out my under construction Traveller page at
    http://home.earthlink.net/~swnadeau1/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:27:12 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> types:
>At 09:50 AM 5/2/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Silly legal point. Security guards in this state (like many others)
>>aren't allowed to carry nightsticks. So instead they all carry those
>>5-cell maglite flashlights, which are both heavier and harder. Ain't
>>the law wonderful?
>Interesting... Around here, security guard aren't allowed to carry a
>flashlight that has more than (I think) 3 C size batteries...  NYS is
>pretty good at closing loopholes like this...
>ObTrav: What kind of obvious-to-improvise tools/weapons are banned at
>various law levels?  
>I know in NYC, you can't carry a baseball bat around the street unless you
>also have a ball...

   I have a rattan hooked top cane.  Nice thing to have.  If you can't find
a hapkido dojang around for cane techniques, epee and sabre moves work very
well.  I'm told that some European Casinos won't let you carry a cane
without a doctor's note.  Some Savate schools include cane work.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Practice random acts of intelligence & senseless acts of self-control.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:23:50 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such

Try Nivens "Legacy of Heriot"
Nasty beasties to deal with
TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 10:27 PM
Subject: re: Spaceport laws and such


>>Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that "_always_"
>>to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
>>settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)
>
>Back in the early days of TNE, I designed some really big honking guns for
>use on a Reavers' Deep planet with really big and nasty animals.  This was
>for the Pocket-Empire group.  It was the kind of planet were you didn't
>visit the laterine with a 15mm revolver to convince the critters you needed
>some privacy.
>
>Now run this idea to Doug's "Dinosaurs in Space" idea...
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
>"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
>that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
>or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
>CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
>              http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:38:38 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> types:
>On 05/02/99 at 01:47 PM,  SRKOALA@aol.com said:
>>If you want mean non-weapons try a pitch fork.  Or a 'potting'
>>shovel, small,  but with a serrated edge and a shart point, its even
>>cupped. -Stephen
>As I understand it, during WWI the favored melee weapon wasn't the
>bayonette, it was the lowly entrenching tool.  Having seen one, I
>don't wonder why.

    The tool, entrenching is favored hand to hand combat weapon of the
Spetsnaz.
I've seen pictures of them being thrown as well.  Cold Steel
(http://www.coldsteel.com/) makes a nice reproduction of one.  It's a half
meter long, and comes sharp enough to use as an axe.  It will take a good
edge as well.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. 
That's our story and we're sticking to it.  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #550
**********************************

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Traveller-digest         Monday, May 3 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 551



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Hunting Dinosaurs
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: Spaceport laws and such 
Re: Battledress 
T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection is Sold Out
Re: solid hydrogen fuel
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Traveller 5 Beta
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav 
Vargr stereotypes
re: Vargr stereotypes
Re: Vargr stereotypes
Re: Patches
Re: Battledress...
Re: Titan Games Preview for (5/2/99)
Re: Looking for Atlas of the Imperium
Re: Tigress BatRons in SM 
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: Space port laws and stuff
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities was
Type D-1 Service Station

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:44:44 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

Dave Nelson writes:
>In a message dated 5/2/99 5:05:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
> Easily. Try to find a copy of "West of Honor". That's the book that has
> Falkenberg's first combat assignment. I think it was originally printed
> by Laser Books, but it may have been reprinted later. If not, haunt the
> used bookstores.
>        West of Honor, along with "The Mercenary" were last reprinted in a 
>single volume called Falkenberg's Legion, which may still be in print, I 
>occasionally have seen it in new bookstores in the last year or two.

    It's still available, you can find it on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/067172018X/eclipsswebwarren/002-49106
34-5555244

Speaking of good mil-SF being out of print.  The first two books of the
Draka series (Marching through Georgia and Under the Yoke) are out of
print.  They are due to be reprinted, along with the third volume (The
Stone Dogs) in June.  A big honking hardcover
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671577948/eclipsswebwarren/002-4910
634-5555244)

IMHO, "Under the Yoke" is one of the scariest books I've ever read.

Here is a short review from my sig quote collection, from an actual post to
rec.arts.sf.written

I will cheerfully admit that I liked "Under the Yoke", even read it twice!
Parts of it made me hot; the Draka are SOOO bad, they make other fictitious
bad guys look like politically correct college girls!                        



- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91) 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:48:33 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Hunting Dinosaurs

At 11:27 AM 5/3/99 +1000, you wrote:
>>At 05:17 PM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that "_always_"
>>>to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
>>>settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)
>>
>>Hmmm, something like the Bandersnatchi from Niven's space?  Or
>>dinosaur-like beasties?
>>
>FGMP's for hunting dinosaur-beasties!?  When I was a lad, I hunted those
>with a toothpick and a chopstick!  Youngens today...

Yes, but these are _young_ dinosaurs.  You  know, the kind that still have
teeth... :)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:52:28 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

At 11:27 PM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>   I have a rattan hooked top cane.  Nice thing to have.  If you can't find
>a hapkido dojang around for cane techniques, epee and sabre moves work very
>well.  I'm told that some European Casinos won't let you carry a cane
>without a doctor's note.  Some Savate schools include cane work.

Yeah, a good friend of mine has one (well, actually it's his grandmother)
He was quite impressed when I demonstrated on a mattress what a sabre cut
could do....

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 00:30:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such 

> Back in the early days of TNE, I designed some really big honking guns for
> use on a Reavers' Deep planet with really big and nasty animals.  This was
> for the Pocket-Empire group.  It was the kind of planet were you didn't
> visit the laterine with a 15mm revolver to convince the critters you needed
> some privacy.

Which RD planet was this?
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 20:40:26 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress 

> Douglas E. Berry"  wrote
> Subject: (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
>
> Just a note on the concept of using drugs to solve the itching problem.. A
> few years back, I had to remain motionless for a bit over four days while
> being treated for massive blood clots.  I was on morphine.  Even with a
> dedicated team of ICU nurses scratching whereever I told them to, I still
> went literally insane by the fourth day
>
> A doctor later told me that a big part of satisfying an itch is the
> feedback from the hand that is doing the scratching.  That's why you can't
> tickle yourself, your brain knows where everything is.  So a BD equipped
> trooper could use electronic massage units to keep from cramping, but the
> itches will just keep getting worse, and worse...
>
But doesn't a good set of Battledress already have feedback sensors in the hands.
Perhaps you activate the scratch subroutine off of your HUD & scratch yourself on the
outside oif the battledress over where it itches.  The inner layer of the battledreess
then scratches you and the finger snesors in your gauntlet give your hand the proper
tactile feedback.  I am sure this would be quite difficult but it seems doable.

However it wouls seem a lot easier to simply drug the troups with theTL 12 anti itch
agent before the put on the battledress.

>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 00:42:40 EDT
From: NordskAM@aol.com
Subject: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection is Sold Out

Due to quick response by a number of diligent members of this list, my entire 
collection is now spoken for. Thanks for your interest and your indulgence. 

Happy gaming. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:02:56 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: solid hydrogen fuel

Chris Peers wrote:
>>
>> We're discussing hydrogen ice. In FF&S1, the table for the density of fuels
>> (page70) states that the density of LHyd is .07...if a ship's fuel tanks
can
>> freeze LHyd down to ice, wouldn't that make its density 1?  If so, that
>> would greatly increase how much LHyd a ship could carry, according to FFS1.
>> Your thoughts are welcome.

>Nope.  I don't have the exact figures on hand, but getting a fluid to
>solidify (a.k.a. "freeze") doesn't change its density by more than a
>percentage point or so.  Water, for example, is very nearly the same
>density frozen (slightly less, in fact) as liquid.  Molten steel is
>about the same density as solid steel.

For some solids, the density advantage is more than a percentage point. The
problem
with solid hydrogen is that (a) it requires pressure to keep it stable at many
temperatures,
and (b) it won't flow through pipes. Nonetheless, there were semiserious
proposals to
use "slush hydrogen" as a fuel for the long-abandoned X-30 National Aeropspace
Plane,
to reduce tank volume by perhaps 10%.

More interesting for Traveller tech would be liquid metallic hydrogen - that
can have
extremely large densities, but requires tremendous pressures, not unimaginable
to
technology that can make superdense alloys.

Still, this is one of those tricks that is so useful if introduced every ship
would use it,
and break canon...

re: as suggested elsewhere, using liquid water or methane to store your
hydrogen - this
has been debated quite a bit. General consensus is that it would be most
useful for
civilian ships (Military ships that want high maneuver performance don't want
the
excess weight of water) and only for subsequent jumps (handwaving that you
can't break
water down into hydrogen fast enough to initiate a jump straight from your
water tanks.)
Still, it'd be nice to think of a reason why it wouldn't work. One thing that
would help with this,
and with the Interminable Drop Tank Debate, would be to make jump performance
and
fuel requirements based on mass rather than volume...neatly removing most of
the
advantages of drop tanks.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:40:10 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

HEHEHEHEH... most referees with no military experience will let you carry a
folding shovel, no questions asked, even where a battle axe would be unheard
of.  The canny ones always asked why I thought I'd need a shovel...

OB Traveller: the current US Military still teaches (and issues) bayonets
for the M-16.  Sort of like Imperial Marines and their cutlasses.  What
about the Army?

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)


>On 05/02/99 at 01:47 PM,  SRKOALA@aol.com said:
>
>>If you want mean non-weapons try a pitch fork.  Or a 'potting'
>>shovel, small,  but with a serrated edge and a shart point, its even
>>cupped. -Stephen
>
>As I understand it, during WWI the favored melee weapon wasn't the
>bayonette, it was the lowly entrenching tool.  Having seen one, I
>don't wonder why.
>
>Eris
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:35:35 +1000 
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Traveller 5 Beta

Is there a web page with the T5 beta version up and running anywhere? Can
anyone join, or do I have to suck up to someone?

BTW Thanks for the input on star port queries, most helpful/instructive. 

Michael Hughes

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 01:40:52 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

Damien Fox wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
OB Traveller: the current US Military still teaches (and issues) bayonets
for the M-16.  Sort of like Imperial Marines and their cutlasses.  What
about the Army?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
While I'd heard rumors of US troops fixing bayonets as recently as the
war in Vietnam, most of what I've heard tells me that bayonet training
is intended to increase the agressiveness of the average soldier.
Shooting at paper targets is one thing, shoving a foot of steel into a
man-shaped figure that's right in front of you is another. The "yell at the
top of your lungs and charge" bit probably helps as well.

Of course, there's the "maintenance of tradition" component as well. 

I can see 3I Marines teaching Cutlass skill for both reasons. IIRC, 
a laser rifle or laser carbine is too fragile for use in HTH combat, so
you can't attach a bayonet to it - therefore, you need a substitute for
the "rifle and bayonet" as a focus for agressiveness training.

The tradition bits and the "useful in places you don't want to blow up" bits
probably helped as well.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 01:44:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav 

> >What I mean, IMTU, is something _designed_ as a weapon. And, IMTU, this is
> >mostly applied to ranged weapons.
> 
> According to one of the guys I game with, a Pontiac falls under the
> defination of 'ranged weapons.'

Too light.  Use an old Buick instead.  Say, an old Electra or Wildcat.
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 15:00:18
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Vargr stereotypes

I start by quoting the following:

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:50:21 +0200
>From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
>Subject: Terran countries and Alien Races compared

>>>I'm also more inclined to think of the Zhos as the Persians. Vargr as
>>>Germans fits though.
>Aha, and how did you see that?
>The Vargr to me seem like the exact opposite of the attributes generally
>attributed to Germans:
>"Law and Order", Punctuality, Order in its normal sense, discipline,
>reserved etc.
>Vargr usually are untrustworthy, prone to disobey rules, whimsical,
>agressive, etc.

This is just one of the many messages (and canon texts, too) who tend to
describe Vargr as erratic creatures much easily distracted, mostly unable
to mantain coherent structure in any kind of action and so on.

In the last two years I have been helping my girlfriend with her volunteer
work in a dog shelter. I've seen a lot of dogs, from scared, aggressive
adults who were mistreated by their former owner to puppies, dogs who had
killed sheeps and ate them, dogs confiscated by the police after busting
dogfighting rings.

If Vargr descend from dogs in the same way in which we descend from
monkeys, I wonder if all the Vargr jokes have any substance: I don't really
think that running an hypotethical, similarly-sized monkey shelter would be
less difficult. I have admittedly much less experience with monkeys, but I
really wonder if dogs, as a species, would justify the ideas often
expressed regarding the Vargrs.

Yes, they would probably like to ride their vehicles sticking their head
out the window, but, for example, the canon idea of Vargr raiders does not
seem very convincing to me. 

Any ideas? Perhaps I'm confusing "domestic" dogs with wolves, but even if
this is true, wolves don't strike me as particularly erratic: they usually
hunt in well-coordinated groups, have (and respect) an internal hierarchy,
don't usually kill any more than they need to eat... they may be fearsome
and dangerous, but they don't act as clowns. 

I strongly think that a lot of the Vargr jokes should be reformulated as
Vargr jokes *about* *us* *monkeys*, instead of the other way around.




	

__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred) | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 02:13:49 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Vargr stereotypes

Paolo Marino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I strongly think that a lot of the Vargr jokes should be reformulated as
Vargr jokes *about* *us* *monkeys*, instead of the other way around.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
If this is so, I'll bet some scholarly Vargr found Kipling's "Road-Song of
the Bander-Log" intensely amusing... <G>

There's a copy of "Road-Song" at
 http://www.rit.edu/%7eexb1874/mine/kipling/kipling_ind.html 
under the 'R's.

An excerpt: 

"All the talk we ever have heard
Uttered by bat or beast or bird -- 
Hide or fin or scale or feather -- 
Jabber it quickly and all together!
Excellent! Wonderful! Once again!
Now we are talking just like men.
         Let 's pretend we are... never mind,
         Brother, thy tail hangs down behind!
         This is the way of the Monkey-kind."

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 08:55:34 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Vargr stereotypes

>Any ideas? Perhaps I'm confusing "domestic" dogs with wolves, but even if
>this is true, wolves don't strike me as particularly erratic: they usually
>hunt in well-coordinated groups, have (and respect) an internal hierarchy,
>don't usually kill any more than they need to eat... they may be fearsome
>and dangerous, but they don't act as clowns.
>
>I strongly think that a lot of the Vargr jokes should be reformulated as
>Vargr jokes *about* *us* *monkeys*, instead of the other way around.

The Vargr generally seem to be able to hold together world governments on
their worlds - that is they control an entire world with one government.
This is something we humans today are VERY far from achieving. Also they
build starships etc somthing that requires cooperation among thousands.

I agree tottaly in that Vargr in library data are stereotyped but this seem
to fit the Imperium: The Imperium to me seem fairly humanocentric and
racistic giving almost all official positions to humans, never letting an
alien be emperor etc etc.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:39:57 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Patches

Dear Folks (and Loren) -

OK, the latest weighted votes are in. I've amalgamated the votes for all
non-Scout Imperial military (Army, Marines, Navy) which explains their
inclusion. The 4518th has edged out the straight logo for fourth spot. I
have also increased the list to the top 7 entries, since votes for 5-7 are
very close.

Average preferred price has increased slightly, but certainly US$5-10 is
the acceptable range.

PATCH VOTING RESULTS

Number of voters: 28

Av Price: US$8.50 (but many seem OK with US$10, providing the patch quality
is _excellent_)

Rankings:

     1.   Imperial Sunburst shoulder/cap patches*
     2.   IISS Service shoulder patch
     3.   Other Imperial military**
     4.   The 4518th Lift Infantry Regiment, Duke of Regina's Own
Huscarles, 'Strike From Space' logo
     5.   Classic Traveller logo ***
     6.   Other IISS "department" logos
     7.   Free Trader  Beowulf crew shoulder patch

* All colour variants requested, with a slight weighting towards
red-on-black, then yellow-on-black.
** Half the votes were for the Marines. Votes were scattered, people want
unit patches, service patches, insignia, badges, etc. Since this is a
somewhat shakey amalgamation, feel free to ignore this entry as desired.
;-)
*** Red lettering on black, bordered in red. So far, 4 requests for "no
company-specific motifs".

[I've ranked votes thus far and weighted them (first choice = 10 pts,
second = 5 pts, third = 2 pts, other = 1 pt). This is probably not an
accurate way of determining rankings, but I'm not a statistician.  ;-)
Weighted Votes:     1=109, 2=93, 3=66 (34 + 32 for marines), 4=45, 5=35,
6=30, 7=27]

There are four requests in for caps, and two people suggested having
"field" and "dress" versions of each patch.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 03:44:43 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Monday, 3 May 1999 3:13
> Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
>
> >A doctor later told me that a big part of satisfying an itch is the
> >feedback from the hand that is doing the scratching.  That's why you can't
> >tickle yourself, your brain knows where everything is.

Um, I can tickle myself.  Not as fast as someone else, but it ain't hard.
And at least I can put a stop to it.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 00:47:22 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (5/2/99)

...
>    Web Site location: http://www.titangames.com/
...
>Paragon Software:
>    (Traveller Software)
>        MegaTraveller 1: The Zhodani Conspiracy (MS-DOS, 3.5" Floppy) [$20,
Box NM-Contents M]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 01:07:42 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Looking for Atlas of the Imperium

>From: "Steven W. Nadeau" <swnadeau1@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Looking for Atlas of the Imperium
>
>Anybody know any good places on the net to get it and other CT Traveller stuff?

  Try  www.titan-games.com
or  www.sentrybox.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 01:07:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Tigress BatRons in SM 

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Tigress BatRons in SM (was: Economics of Drop Tanks)
...
>gererally one per sector, and it's mentioned that the "Spinward Marches" only 
>has one, which lacking an Archduke could mean for just the sector, but sounds 
>odd IMO.  One of them things not given "proper" consideration?  ;-)

  I always got the impression that refs way back then (i.e., CT) to the SM
were specifically excluding Corridor, etc., but that could just be my 5FW
background; the reinforcement schedule for 5FW certainly makes the proportions
of Imperial follow-up forces pretty apparent (although all the actual strengths
have been scaled down to keep the number of "squadrons" reasonable).

  In any case, Tigresses are fairly inefficient, if individually impressive.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:53:29 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

>So are 98% of the crimes committed with handguns? (Just curious, no
>Traveller connection I can think of, yet.)

Actually, most of them are  still committed without firearms
Even in the US, the number of  crimes involving knives is still far higher
than those committed with firearms.

And I suspect the number of crimes comitted without armament at all is far
higher still, though I don't have the figures.

Ob Trav :
So, how much "white collar" crime do Traveller characters deal with or
commit ?
Are any of your characters rich from things like junk bonds or insider
trading ?

Is insider trading illegal in the Imperium ?

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:53:27 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Space port laws and stuff

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: Space port laws and stuff


>"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> types:
>>>The 'shod foot' has been classified as a deadly weapon.
>>>As the old saying goes "I can bust up somebody pretty good with a
>>plowshare."
>>>Even with restrictive laws, PCs are pretty darn inventive in creating
nasty
>>>things out of what's available.
>>c.f. the entire set of "martial arts" weapons (bo, nunchuku, sai, etc)
>>modified from farming implements due to the weapons restrictions imposed
by
>>the occupying Japanese.
>
>   I've been in and out of the arts for 20 (yikes!) years.  I've never head
>a good explaination for a sai being a farm implement. :-)

Simple, it's a garden fork.
The long tine is used for creating holes in which to place rice plants. the
rest is used as a normal hand fork,

Western gardeners tend to use two seperate implements, a garden fork with
all tines the same length and a seperate stick or hole borer to place plants
and seeds. The sai is merely a combination of the two tools as used for
millenia in rice paddies.

>I've also have several LEOs tell me the best reason for "The Club" (an
>anti-car theft device) is that it gives you a legal reason to carry a steel
>billy club in your car.

<grin>

Just carry a 20" crescent (that's "adjustable spanner", for the non-ANZACs )
or a solidly built torque wrench or ratchet

A 38mm socket or a set of p'tonque (sp?) balls is useful as a ranged weapon

<grin>

Frankie




>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
>Practice random acts of intelligence & senseless acts of self-control.
>                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:47:25 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities was

> From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
> Obtrav: Does the Imperial Navy, Army and Marines have Chaplains?  What
about
> Librarians. Even in our computerized world I sometimes can find
information
> faster by visiting my public library for assistance at the research desk,
> than searching online.

It's the Solomani who have the Librarians.  (Ook! Ook!)

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 03:03:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Type D-1 Service Station

  Here's a pretty near gold-plated sample "fuel station":

                TV-A811121-370000-44002-0       MCr 242.4      1000 tons
                  batts.    1     11  1                           TL=12
                                                                Crew=11
        Cargo=17. Passengers=20. LHyd=580. EP=10. Agility=0. Low=0.

  This is a design that's easy to build and to maintain in addition
to being as flexible as possible; both rapid in-system and independent
interstellar redeployment are supported by its own drive capabilities.
Series production reduces cost to just under MCr 194.

  As a true "station" rather than a highly economical tanker design the
vehicle/facility would likely strip the movement systems out and replace
them with facilities for supporting a small pusher tug or cutter. Crew
composition will likely change somewhat, but the quarters remain the same.
L-Hyd tankage is now 620 Dt and series cost is MCr 106.

  The stripped-down version is mostly a power plant and a shell; given the
TL D+ reductions in fusion plant mass and cost the unit can be built at
TL D for MCr 30 less and 10 Dt more stowage, with an additional such bonus
at TL F (for series costs of MCr 80 & 56, respectively).

  In any case the facility should be able to shepherd and maintain a quite
substantial tonnage of drop tanks, so long as the sub-contracted haulers
are reliable and the accounting system is Virus-resistant. If drop tanks
are deemed unable to safely store L-Hyd for protracted periods it simple
for depot storage to be maintained in further, _unpowered_ type 9 hulls
at Cr 1125 per Dt of long-term armoured tankage desired.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #551
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Traveller-digest         Monday, May 3 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 552



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: T4 Products (Missions of State)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Copyright
re: Black Globes
Space ports
Bayonets
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: Spaceport laws and such

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 03:19:52 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>> Also, since one of the changes is to jump-6 routes, you open up
>> a _lot_ of alternate routes.  That means you have to hit a lot
>> of system to cut off traffic.
>
>Not if you're going after point of origin.  Who cares where outbound ships are 
>going if you whack out the outbound fuel point?  Once they're there in the 
>system, they aren't going anywhere to tell people *you're* there.

  No, but the picket ships sitting quietly in the system will - even a neatly
trimmed Striker (i.e., CT/OTU) budget goes a long way, let alone TCS money.
One of the first things you discover upon hearing that "limited intelligence"
only applies if you don't have a ship in-system is that scrapping a Strike
Cruiser can buy several hundred little picket gnats.

>> Another point is that they are realatively cheap, and it just won't be
>> that hard to crank out replacements.  I will be a lot cheaper
>> than replacing ships (and so that is what will remain the primary
>> target of commerce raiders).
>
>A *BILLION* credits or so is not relatively cheap compared to a 30 *MILLION* 
>credit starship.  And if it gets whacked out, you get to spend *ANOHTER* 
>billion credits to replace it.  So where's your 'economy'?

  You're radically over-estimating the cost of a bare-bones installations
(which is, after all, what's needed). OTOH, I suspect that you're much
closer wrt the military disadvantages of such a system.

...
>I don't have a problem with that.  I never have.  I *do* have problems with 
>somebody's logic when they tell me that building ships without jump tankage is 
>cheaper than building them with, then say 'well, you use this cheap station at 
>the 100 diameter limit to hold your fuel'.  The numbers don't support the 
>allegations that non-fueled ships are cheaper.

  Ooh, that sounds like a CT design challenge...

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:10:11 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Products (Missions of State)

"Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Has Anyone seen this book? I haven't ever seen it at my FN game
>store...

Missions of State is a collection of adventures about nobles, none of which
are linked in anyway: The following is a copy of a review I did when I
bought it -

- ------------
I bought Missions of State this week.

Physically, it's great. There is new art (a Vargr on the inner back cover
for example, and lots of B&W pages) and the adventures are separated with a
backprint of a starry sky. One of my players commented that the only thing
IG need to do now is learn how to make the text look interesting with
sidebars and in line pictures. I agree with this - it is very hard to 'just
dip into' this book, it doesn't draw you in as it looks like a financial
report without the excitement of tables.


1 The Trial. Doug Stewart

Canon breaking effects are minimal ( a confused reference to the Long Night
happening to the 1st Imperium). The scenario is interesting and lets your
players be attorneys/barristers. Not bad at all, but possibly hard to run
on a couple of the players. I like this one's idea - different...

2 All the Universe's a Stage. 	Doug Stewart

Interesting read, based around the players as a covert ops team on
freighter, posing as entertainers. Unfortunately, it jumps up and down on
canon and rips it up and throws it in the bin...

Problems
- - refers to Ancients as the Droyne - a fact unknown until M1100
- - Set in a sector below Massilia ie Old Expanses ie beyond the limit to
expansion set by Cleon.. but this could be handwaved.
- - Briefly describes a triage system for conquering worlds that seems to
contradict M0's economic absorption...
- - The Vrast have FTL coms using Psionics. These are nominally limited to
one light year but there is nothing that prevents a chain of them being set
up. Additionally, the author seems to have confused 1 LY with 1 parsec.
- - The Vrast are noted as being on too much of an equal footing with the
Imperium to absorb.
- - Jump Torpedoes p24 - Say no more.
- - Implication that it takes about two days total  for the torpedo to jump
to the enemy fleet, and for them to return to rescue their scout.
- - Ship control card is messed up in filling out.

Conclusion - The scenario is very weak with respect to canon, but could be
fixed with a few mods. (eg replace the jump torpedo with a message torpedo,
move the sector the adventure is set in to trailing not rimward, have the
fleet in the outer system, make the Vrast a small PE and introduce a
lightspeed delay to Psionics). It'd be a great scenario then, as the
players get to play actors.

3. The 13th Corban (Doug Stewart)

This is a generally okay adventure, but has more of a Star Wars feel than
Traveller's classic and MT material. I've continuing doubts about the
author's understanding of Traveller Technology (he refers to adjusting
ship's weapons and jump capabilities dependent on the character's levels),
but I'm probably switched on to more minor things thanks to the gaffes in
'All the Universe's a Stage". The other potential canon mistake is a
discussion of 'when Cleon sent archeologists to the ancient ruined palace
of the First Imperium" and inscriptions apparently about a ZS emperor that
are all olde medieval style. Not necessarily impossible but it jars with
everything I've read about the Vilani and leads me to question whether the
author has read M0, even.

Anyway, the plot centres around some precious stones (the Corbans) of great
value that Cleon has become obsessed with. So obsessed with that he has
sent a Baron out to search for it threatening his wife and three daughters
if he doesn't find it (just for once it would have been nice to have sent
out the Countess....?) This image of Cleon jars - he's absolute ruler of
the 3I yet he doesn't send out the Scout service or some military/BIA
agents to get it?

The ship (the Ransom) departs with a really clever device on it - a
tracking beacon that allows the vessel to be followed anywhere by the navy.
Hmm. Can you say FTL commo? Or even the Millenium Falcon leaving the Death
Star? They arrive at the system that the Corban is supposed to be at, and
find the station abandoned, and reports of a liner (wandering the Rim!!!!!)
that may have been destroyed. Anyway friction occurs with up to two other
searching groups and then the scenario moves to the planet below. Anyway,
the players have to find the stone, solve the mystery of the liner and get
back to Sylea alive.

Summary - Space Opera that doesn't understand the history or technology of
Traveller.

4. Retian and Juenaire. (Doug Stewart)

I really like this, even though it's just Romeo and Juliette in M0. It
plays with honour (do the players help the lovers, or ensure that the
arranged marriage goes ahead?) and gives a nice feudal feel, something that
I feel is more related  to M0. One of the best scenarios in the book. I
can't say much more without ruining it.

Summary - Romeo and Juliette in M0 (Swords and Honour).

5. The Princess Clone (Doug Stewart)

This adventure involves the clone of a noblewoman, and the original's
attempt to regain her birthrights from an evil and nasty Duke. The scenario
includes a space battle and then a covert approach to a planet (somewhat
unfeasible but very dramatic). It's all very exciting, and then comes the
killer blow TL12 (I assume) teleport systems as a key plot device. Exit
Canon stage right. Anyway, the plot races to a conclusion in the depths of
the secret complex...

Summary - It was so much good fun until the teleport systems appeared. I
suspect you could work them out of this scenario, but it's a shame no one
resolved this.

6. A Piece of the Action (Doug Stewart)

This adventure is set in the Crab Nebula, which lies somewhere in the M0
Imperium. It involves the Emperor sending the players to investigate tax
losses from the Oasis system,  which stem from a second system hidden in
the nebula, identical to the first but an exact opposite. (Hurrah magic!
Seas where the other system has continents etc). Anyway, apparently all the
players need to do is a 360 deg (!) scan out for 1.5 Light years to find
the system. As Oasis is an Imperial system you'd think that the Scouts may
have done this previously... Anyway, faced with perils the players get the
opportunity to find the information that Cleon needs to act against the
system and have to escape.

Summary: the exact mirrored systems really blows holes in Traveller's
reputation as a hard SF game. And the meeting with Mr LeRoi (Cleon) blows
the mystique. Not good. Saveable with a major rewrite but why spend the
money on a prepackaged adventure?

Not to mention the Crab Nebula is not in the Imperium....

7. The Gauntlet Cruise (James M Ward)

I approached this with trepidation after the unmitigated rubbish of the
Annililik Run. Unfortunately, justified IMO. The scenario is an AD&D
dungeon. The players are summoned to Hallen World as they are all long lost
relatives of the royal house. They get to carouse with the rest of the
nobility and then run the gauntlet decks (basically something like a SF
Deathtrap Dungeon). Like the Annililik Run, death comes easily.

Summary: The worst scenario in the book. D&D in space.

8. The Khiidkar Incident (MJ Dougherty and NA Frier)

This is the outstanding adventure of the book for me, and the longest (14
pages). It combines politicking, social graces and honour with a murder and
kidnapping plot. The adventure gives a very feudal feeling and the authors
liking of blade weapons comes out in the text ;-) There are detailed npcs,
and the plot is described and clearly outlined. If it suffers from anything
it is that the layout doesn't help make the adventure easy to follow if
dipping in quickly for reference. It could be a hard work for a less
skilled ref.

Summary: Politics, honour and intrigue - excellent.

9. Reverse Assimilation (Joseph E Walsh)

This is what happens when you let one of the M0 authors loose in the period
they wrote. You get a dark picture of how the Imperium expands and takes
the problem worlds bypassed until the end of the first century (this is one
of the first supplements to date in line with T4.1's draft). The players
have an opportunity to find out (possibly fatally) just how the Imperium
can abuse its position to absorb bypassed, content worlds. The scenario
describes the world and culture in depth, but once again is aimed at the
more experienced referee as there is no real linear plot to lead the
players. There are several detailed npcs. I really like this one two, and
the Khiidkar Incident only just beat this to be my favourite.

Summary - excellent background and plot which could be expanded to be a
campaign on a world. May be hard for a starting referee.

*Summary For Missions of State*

3 good adventures. The rest are average to poor with one dreadful one and
frequent breaches of canon. Coherent presentation but layout makes the book
unattractive to read. 5/10 overall.

The book also demonstrates the need for a TL table in T4.1 like the one in
the MT refs companion.
- -----------

>Maybe it's worth waiting for GT Espionage(sp) and
>Diplomacy............continuing in this vein.....when I wasn't a member of
>the TML I got First Survey..I know it's been much maligned...was there ever
>an errata made by anyone...I haven't seen it on the Imperium games web
>page...I don't own Atlas of the Imperium so it's my only resource for most
>of the sectors...

Hmm - Missions of State is okay, but be aware of what you're buying.

Errata for the First Survey is on the Missouri archive and takes the form
of a text file with all the data. There were some groups who worked on
correcting this but I never saw much out put. (BITS will happily host any
Traveller errata if the authors want to contact me). The Missouri archive
is linked through the jumpsite at http://www.bits.org.uk/ and I can't
remember the direct URL.


TIA....
>great weekend to all!

And to you.

Dom


>Mike

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:13:05 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>  It's a cute idea, but it's not an allowed option under CT.
>
> The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its'
>Product"
>     Consult your conscience closely before considering formats over 6"x9".

<plug>

Note that BITS 101 products just happen to comply to the CT format ;-)

</plug>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:17:24 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright

Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>The Darrians seem introspective to me, and not hell bent on
>getting rich through innovation.  And the Zhodani keep their
>Proles down where they belong.  They are the proletariat after all.

Malicious Imperial slander. The Consulate is a humane society - *we* don't
allow murderers, thieves and liars to walk about and damage society. Thanks
to our humane ethos, the mentally unbalanced soon become happy, well
adjusted, dutyful members of society.

>(Why has it taken me so long to realize the Prole is short for
>Proletariat?  Compartmentalized mind, I guess.  Hmmm,
>anyone want to speculate on the effect of a Zhodani revolution?
>Mwahaha.)

Hmm. It is stated explicitly in GT AR1. Not sure about the CT manual but I
suspect that is also the case.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:42:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Black Globes

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:

>I'm trying to find out more about Black Globes.  I understand you can
>either turn them on all the way, or flicker them (the flicker rate depends
>on TL, as per FF&S2).  I've looked in both T4/FFS and MT, and still have
>some questions:
>
>A 20% flicker rate: is it 20% on or 20% off?

20% on - HG2 pg42

>How fast does it flicker: several times a second, a minute, an hour?
>technically, if it's on for 20 hours and then off for 80, that's still a
>20% flicker..

Undefined exactly -HG2 suggests really fast (multiple times a second)....

>How fast can it be turned on/off.  i.e., can you turn it on just as a
>missile is about to impact and them immediately turn it off again?

Off/On/Flicker decision once every 20 min (decision made each HG combat
round). However, probably near instantly in relaity.

>I'm mostly looking for canon sources, please cite where your info is from
>(although conjecture is welcome too)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:49:14 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Space ports

Someone asked this a few Digest back and I haven't seen a response yet:

From MT Ref's manual - p29, p23

Subordinate *space*port.

Y	No spaceport	-			-
H	Primative Facilities	-			-
G	Poor Quality	Superficial Damage repairs	Unrefined Fuel
F	Good Quality	Minor Damage repairs	Unrefined Fuel

Terra now would be at best G

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:34:32 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Bayonets

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, 3 May 1999 3:59
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)



>While I'd heard rumors of US troops fixing bayonets as recently as the
>war in Vietnam, most of what I've heard tells me that bayonet training
>is intended to increase the agressiveness of the average soldier.
>Shooting at paper targets is one thing, shoving a foot of steel into a
>man-shaped figure that's right in front of you is another. The "yell at the
>top of your lungs and charge" bit probably helps as well.
>
>Of course, there's the "maintenance of tradition" component as well.
>
>I can see 3I Marines teaching Cutlass skill for both reasons. IIRC,
>a laser rifle or laser carbine is too fragile for use in HTH combat, so
>you can't attach a bayonet to it - therefore, you need a substitute for
>the "rifle and bayonet" as a focus for agressiveness training.
>
>The tradition bits and the "useful in places you don't want to blow up"
bits
>probably helped as well.
>
>Walt Smith
>

I believe most standing armies (and branches therein) still give bayonet
training.  The British Royal Marines last used a bayonet charge as recently
as the Faulklands against Argie troops.  On little known, not made public
report sites that many of the Argentinian  captured had freshly soiled
pants, as did some of the dead.

Not a noble way to die or be captured and the British made it known to other
Argie troopies what had happened.  It is believed that the afore mentioned
incident was another reason why the Argentinian troops on the island
capitulated so quickly towards the end.  But that is just "hearsay."

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 02:59:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

In mail you write:

> At 09:57 AM 5/2/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Which reminds me. After seeing a TV item about a scale model of the
>>solar system in some town in the midwest, I got to thinking about
>>trying to draw up a description of Traveller solar systems in such
>>terms. 
>
> I don't know about the Midwest, but here (Ithaca, NY) we have just such a
> thing (It was dedicated to Carl Sagan who was a prof at Cornell).  The Sun
> is about 10" across, the small planets are about 1/6" to 1/8" across, the
> gas giants are maybe 1/8" to a 1/4".  The inner planets are on the same
> block as the sun, Pluto is on the other side of town (admittedly, it's a
> small town).  Someone figured out that if we wanted to add Alpha Centauri
> to this and make it to scale, it would have to be in Hawaii.

4.5 light years is ~4.5e16 m. The Sun is ~14e8 in diameter. So yeah, I
get about 5000 miles if the Sun is 10". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 03:15:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In mail you write:

>> Great! Since I can't find my copy, could you post the words to the ine
>> marine "march"? That's the one about "We've left blood on the..."
>
> We've left blood in the dirt of twenty-five worlds
> We've built roads on a dozen more.
> And all that we have at the end of our hitch
> Buys a night with a second-class whore.
>
> The Senate decrees, the Grand Admiral calls
> The orders come down from on high
> It's "On Full Kits" and sound "Board Ships'
> We're sending you where you can die.
>
> The lands that we take, the Senate gives back
> Rather more often than not
> So the more that are killed, the less share the loot,
> And we won't be back to this spot.
>
> We'll break the hearts of your women and girls,
> We may break your ass as well
> Then the Line Marines with their banners unfurled
> Will follow those banners to Hell.
>
> We know the devil, his pomps and his works
> Ah yes! we know them well!
> When we've served out our hitch as Line Marines
> We can bugger the Senate of Hell!
>
> Then we'll drink with our comrades and lay down our packs
> We'll rest ten years on the flat of our backs
> Then it's "On Full Kits" and "Out of Your Racks"
> You must build a new road through Hell!
>
> The Fleet is our country, we sleep with a rifle
> No one ever begot a son on his rifle
> They pay us in gin and curse when we sin,
> There's not one that can stand us unless we're down wind
> We're shot when we lose and turned out when we win
> But we bury our comrades wherever they fall
> And there's none that can face us though we've nothing at all.

There's a quite good tune someone came up with for this (to make it
scan a couple of lines turn into spoken comments rather than verses of
the song).

The above can be stuck into Traveller easily. Especially since the only
"named" references are "the Senate", "the Fleet", "the Line Marines",
and "Grand Admiral". 

I suspect that nobody has any troubles with the idea of the Senate
"giving back" conquered (pacified) territory "rather more often than
not"? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 03:20:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In mail you write:

>> > OBTrav...I wonder if a Trav senario could be made with Pournelle 
> material?...
>> 
>> Easily. Try to find a copy of "West of Honor". That's the book that has
>> Falkenberg's first combat assignment. I think it was originally printed
>> by Laser Books, but it may have been reprinted later. If not, haunt the
>> used bookstores.
>
> Using Striker, it's fairly simple.  Falkenburg's Legion is equiped
> with 7mm ACRs, cloth armor/ combat environment suits, at about TL10,
> TL11ish.  Map boxes are availiable, every trooper has at least a 10
> watt radio in his helmet.  It's almost as if they were *designed* for
> Striker/Mercenary.  AAMOF, I have my suspicions that Andy Keith
> patterned the Caledon Highlanders (a merc regiment in Reavers Deep)
> around Falkenburg's Legion...

Just about all of the Falkenberg stories make "interesting" mercenary
tickets. Though the one on Jefferson is rather hairy!

Of course, I have my doubts about most players being able to handle the
situations even half as well.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 03:25:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In mail you write:

> Speaking of good mil-SF being out of print.  The first two books of the
> Draka series (Marching through Georgia and Under the Yoke) are out of
> print.  They are due to be reprinted, along with the third volume (The
> Stone Dogs) in June.  A big honking hardcover
> (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671577948/eclipsswebwarren/002-4910
> 634-5555244)

And don't forget "Drakon", where a Draka gets dumped on current day
*earth*. *This* timeline, not her own. 


> IMHO, "Under the Yoke" is one of the scariest books I've ever read.
>
> Here is a short review from my sig quote collection, from an actual post to
> rec.arts.sf.written
>
> I will cheerfully admit that I liked "Under the Yoke", even read it twice!
> Parts of it made me hot; the Draka are SOOO bad, they make other fictitious
> bad guys look like politically correct college girls!                        

Well, the thing is that the unlike the Nazis or the various Communist
or Fascist bad guys, the Draka are *not* amoral SOBs. They are *moral*.
And they'll live and die by their moral code. 

It's just that according to that code, the rest of humanity is their
just prey. <brrr>

Hmmm. Picture the poor Kzinti in the Draka universe. :-)

Or the K'Kree. <eg>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 03:30:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

In mail you write:

> On 05/02/99 at 11:06 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>> One of the scout's missions is to get physiological data on the Visitor's.
>>> You'd love to get a physical inspection of them, but they always refuse
>>> "for cultural reasons".  What to do?
>
> I was thinking about this adventure idea this afternoon, btw great
> job *again* Alvin, and it occurred to me that a nasty solution to
> the problem is staring these PC's in the face.  This *is* set in the
> TNE milleu and during the height of the aggressive Virus era,
> so...;->

Ooo! Nasty. 

Virus, whether the unlikely official version or my much stripped down
version, will go thru those primitive computers like candy. 

And just for fun, infect them by letting them "steal" a state of the
art portable computer that they think has critical, but encrypted data
on it. Something that they'll want to send to the homeworld before even
trying to crack it. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 03:35:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

In mail you write:

>>Date: Sun, 02 May 99 17:22:50 -0500
>>From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
>>Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
>
>>On 05/02/99 at 11:06 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
> The Visitor's *do* tend to discourage traders, so with a little
> rumour management it should be able to keep the spread of
> Virus to only Cong Su and the Visitor's starship's.  
>
> Right now (1134) there are very, very few captured versions of
> Virus which are still alive, and it can't be found in Foreven Sector:
> the PC's will have to travel back to the Domain (the interstellar
> nation on the front lines of Virus) to get a copy.  Getting that copy of
> Virus is almost impossible: the Navy has absolutely no 
> problem vaping your ship because "they acted funny", and the
> Domain custom's inspector's will happily quarrentine your ship
> till the heat death of the universe if that's what's needed to be 100%
> sure that you're Virus Free.
>
> Oh, incidentally, deliberatly transporting a copy of Virus illegally
> is a capital offence - and the guard's might not wait till the trial
> ("He was trying to escape, Sir - honest!")
>
> If your PC's are really into being wild and wooly, they can head to
> Gvurrdon Sector (just above the Marches) and get Virus there: 
> half the sector is "semi-clean", but the Vargr Extent's isn't called
> a Virus Sponge for nothing....
>
> [ Sometimes, I wonder if the Vargr even noticed... ]
>
> That hungry sucker need's to be caged good and tight, and brought 
> over to Cong Su.  You don't want just a Doomslayer "KillThemNow"
> virus, but also a little something a little more developed, that will wait 
> quietly until *after* they are over the Visitor's homeworld.... 

A good reason to get it via the Vargr. You'll be able to observe
different varieties.

> Then, give them the quiet one first, let that ship leave, then give them 
> Ole' Killer next.

> Remember, folks, Don't Try This At Home.  At 1134, there are maybe
> 100 people (out of one Trillion sophont's in the entire Domain) who 
> can actually pull this off with more than a 1% chance of success 
> (and they are all Really Busy just now...)
>
> And the Visitor's *are* aware of Virus, but since they have only 
> report's from the Domain to go on, and are only at TL A in 
> computer science, you have a pretty good chance of making the
> pass.
>
> Man, though, it will be an awful sight (in both senses of the word
> "awful" and "awe-full")  watching those 3.2 km ship's crash into
> the cities.

> And immediately the PC's will have to blockade the planet, being 
> sure to destroy every other jump-capable ship trying to leave, or 
> else they personally will be the cause of destroying civilization 
> *THIS* side of the Claw, too.

Pick the right strain of the virus, put it in an isolated system and
feed it data via a one-way com link. You may be able to convince it
that the best bet is to take the ships back to the Visitor homeworld.
And just maintain the base at the Fragment as a means of keeping the
Imperium from chasing it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 03:48:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such

In mail you write:

> Try Nivens "Legacy of Heriot"
> Nasty beasties to deal with

Try the sequel "Beowulf's Children". Grendels are *not* the most
dangerous critter on the planet. There's something that *they* are
afraid of!

And an FGMP-15 will just make things worse. :-)

<spoiler space>

It occurs to me that something like army ants on "speed" could be even
*nasty* than the flying insect swarms.

Either way, all the FGMP will do is ignite a *nasty* chain-reaction
explosion among the insects. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #552
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Traveller-digest         Monday, May 3 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 553



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: hydrogen ice
Re: Spaceport laws and such
CT design challenge...
Re: Milieu 0 hardcover
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
re: Uniforms and Patches
re: Milieu 0 hardcover
re: other strange laws...
F3 Fast Freighter.
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Spaceport laws and such
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
for MTA2 computer game, need hints and distances chart
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #543
Traveller World Map -> Globe
RE: swords, etc
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...
RE: starship prices
RealLife(tm) Anti-Matter Rockets
re: starship prices
Re: Starship Depreciation (and drop tank economics)
Adventure Class Ships Vol II

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 04:02:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

In mail you write:

>>What I mean, IMTU, is something _designed_ as a weapon. And, IMTU, this is
>>mostly applied to ranged weapons.
>
> According to one of the guys I game with, a Pontiac falls under the
> defination of 'ranged weapons.'

A lot of the folks in the "games" over on alt.callahans would agree.
"ranged" as in "How far do you think I can throw this Pontiac?"

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 03:54:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: hydrogen ice

In mail you write:

> We're discussing hydrogen ice. In FF&S1, the table for the density of fuels
> (page70) states that the density of LHyd is .07...if a ship's fuel tanks can
> freeze LHyd down to ice, wouldn't that make its density 1?  If so, that
> would greatly increase how much LHyd a ship could carry, according to FFS1.
> Your thoughts are welcome.

Hydrogen ice does *not* have a density of 1. It has a density of .071
according to my handy periodic table. LH2 will be a bit less dense. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 03:44:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such

In mail you write:

> Robert Prior wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> "Deadly weapon" is a device primarily designed to inflict injury and/or
> death on someone.  Yes, there are gray areas, but I'm running a game here,
> not changing Canadian law (which, generally, I'm pretty content with).
> <snip>
> A shotgun on a frontier settlement is a hunting tool. A shotgun in the
> middle of Regina's largest city is a weapon. An FGMP-15 is _always_ a
> weapon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that "_always_"
> to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
> settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)

I doubt that. 

But as a *mining* tool, I'll believe!

Heck, Dig up a copy of H. Beam Piper's "Four Day Planet". Fenris, it's
climate and lifeforms are well detailed. 

Would you believe a world much like earth except that it's days are so
long that there are only 4 days a year? And with sea critters (that are
hunted for a valuable export) that require 40mm auto-cannon to kill!
As well as machine gunners to cover the "cutting up" party. 

Fenris would fit right into the Imperium as a backwater world, just as
Piper described it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 04:37:24 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: CT design challenge...

  Or, two reasons why drop tanks can be Bad Things.

...
>I don't have a problem with that.  I never have.  I *do* have problems with 
>somebody's logic when they tell me that building ships without jump tankage is 
>cheaper than building them with, then say 'well, you use this cheap station at 
>the 100 diameter limit to hold your fuel'.  The numbers don't support the 
>allegations that non-fueled ships are cheaper.

  Here's the basic C3 fast trader:

                FM-2431131-000000-30000-0       MCr 131.00     200 tons
                  batts.          1                               TL=12
                                                                Crew=4
        Cargo=40. Passengers=8. LHyd=66. EP=6. Agility=1. Low=0.

  Even at 50% over standard Traveller carriage rates this ship can't make
a significant return to capital. (assumes 35 trips/p.a., 100% loading at
x1.5 rates for MCr 6.3, versus MCr 5.25 annual mortgage payments based on
the seris production cost of MCr 105).


  Here's your C3 fast trader on drop tanks:

                FM-2431131-000000-30000-0       MCr 131.01     200 tons
                  batts.          1                               TL=12
                                                                Crew=4
        Cargo=100. Passengers=8. LHyd=6. EP=6. Agility=1. Low=0.

  The cost using the tanks can be presumed to be KCr 60 per run; if the
basic version is able to make any return then this vessel will also.
Under the previous set of assumptions this vessel makes a further MCr 3.15
per year, which is the difference between mediocre performance and not.
Of course, this all assumes a shipping environment prior to adjustments
for drop tank freighters long-term economic impacts.

  See the difference?


  Here's the munchkinized C3 fast trader:

                FM-2431131-000000-30000-0       MCr 127.47     200 tons
                  batts.          1                               TL=12
                                                                Crew=4
        Cargo=40. Passengers=8. LHyd=66. EP=6. Agility=1. Low=0.

  This affront to the gods has drop tanks installed but never uses them.
(i.e., design is as an over-powered 160 Dt hull with 60 Dt tanks welded on)
Thus, 60 Dt of the LHyd tankage is running at KCr 1.0 per ton rather than
KCr 60. While the difference is small (~3%) on such an inefficient design it
will be substantially greater on higher tech (lower PP multiplier), lower
jump or larger designs (less influence on total cost from the computer or
J-drive as appropriate).

  Obviously, as has been mentioned before, if this is allowed then all
current non-GT designs are "inefficient" for having failed to abuse this
device. Ironically, if TCS had run events for economic performance we'd
have seen this fixed by now.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 04:40:49 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 hardcover

the players have access to the full world UWP...The other planetary data was 
"lost" during the Long Night

>From: "George Royal" <groyal@isoa.net>
>Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: Milieu 0 hardcover
>Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 22:13:04 -0700
>
>I recently purchased the Milieu 0 hardcover and in the First Survey part
>in the comment section for UWPs, what does full data mean?
>
>
>Thanks
>george
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 14:10:19 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

>>I don't have a problem with that.  I never have.  I *do* have problems with 
>>somebody's logic when they tell me that building ships without jump tankage
>>is cheaper than building them with, then say 'well, you use this cheap
>>station at the 100 diameter limit to hold your fuel'. The numbers don't
>>support the allegations that non-fueled ships are cheaper.

If somebody has told you that, then that somebody is mistaken. OTOH, I
suspect that you may just have misunderstood his point. A drop tank ship
is not cheaper than the same sized conventional ship. But it carries
a lot more cargo and/or passengers, so the per-unit cost is smaller.
Or that somebody may have been talking about ships with an equivalent
capacity, which will be smaller and cheaper. Considerably cheaper,
especially with high jump numbers.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 12:03:16 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>

>>The other problem is that the police are not technically obligated to respond
>>to your distress call.

IIRC in the UK they are - or can face a damages suit / maybe criminal
negligence if they don't respond.

>The Netherlands, with a policy of decriminalizing drugs, has nowhere near
>the problem with drug-related crime that other countries have. What does
>this say about 'the war on drugs'?  Did Prohibition work?  ObTrav: Could
>this explain why the Imperium bans very few items?

Hmm, which may explain pirates - they may be hard to justify economically
in the OTU, but because they're banned they're considered the thing to be
;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 05:15:46 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

...
>>     Consult your conscience closely before considering formats over 6"x9".
><plug>
>Note that BITS 101 products just happen to comply to the CT format ;-)
></plug>

  Yeah, but they're real close to the 6" limit :)

  Do you have any idea how much of a pain it's been getting those books?

  (OK, actually, you do...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 12:56:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Uniforms and Patches

Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net> wrote:

>The beginnings of a Traveller LRPG, has anyone run a Traveller LRPG?
>Uniforms of the Imperium ! Sounds like a potential net project.

A small number of patch designs can be seen at http://www.bits.org.uk/

Dom (BITS webmaster)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:09:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Milieu 0 hardcover

"George Royal" <groyal@isoa.net> writes:

>I recently purchased the Milieu 0 hardcover and in the First Survey part
>in the comment section for UWPs, what does full data mean?

There are two sets of data in the book - the players (which only has the
physical data on worlds) and the referee's (which is the full data
including the Law Level = Gov mistake). I assume full data refers to the
referee's data.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:11:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: other strange laws...

 "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net> wrote:

>Consider a place like Texas.  Not sure about our law level, but it is still
>a felony for carrying wirecutters.
>Dates back to the range wars and fence cutting.
>Wonder what type of silly laws some worlds might have for the equivilant of
>wire cutters.

In Chester (UK, on the Welsh/English border) there is still a local bylaw
to the effect that if you see a welshman on one of the cities' bridges
after nightfall, looking threatening, you should shoot him with a bow and
arrow.!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 05:16:45 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: F3 Fast Freighter.

  Hmm, I haven't misused the design rules for hours now...

  Here's an F3 fast freighter. Note that at five times the size of the
C3 it's only triple the cost & crew, and seven times the payload.

                FM-A431142-070000-75000-0       MCr 418.00     1000 tons
                  batts.    1     11                             TL=F
                                                                Crew=14
        Cargo=357. Passengers=40. LHyd=330. EP=30. Agility=1. Low=0.

  Mortgage runs at MCr 16.72/year for the type, and a load of express cargo
and high passengers at "normal" rates is MCr 26.53/year, or ~MCr 40 at +50%
express rates. If some sections are middle passage stewards can be dropped.
Armament is certainly adequate. A drop tank version would carry up to 300
additional tons of cargo at an extra cost around KCr 1.0/ton. MCr 334.4 and
86 weeks to construct in series.

  The munchkinized welded-droptank version loses some hardpoints but gets
a significant saving on costs for exploiting the absurd design glitch that
drop tanks represent in this case - ~4.3% (MCr 17.7)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 05:32:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>On a Free Trader's scale, noone has addressed what would happen on an 
>unprofitable, much less diasterous run where new drop tankage can't be 
>afforded, much less a misjump to a low tech world.

  A free trader unable to afford replacement tanks at a port is in the
same position as an airliner of a small company whose credit is no good
with the company supplying avgas - that is, they're already broke...
  
 OTOH, misjumps can be a real pain for anyone - especially those ones to
deep space.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 08:40:29 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>> Back in the early days of TNE, I designed some really big honking guns for
>> use on a Reavers' Deep planet with really big and nasty animals.  This was
>> for the Pocket-Empire group.  It was the kind of planet were you didn't
>> visit the laterine with a 15mm revolver to convince the critters you needed
>> some privacy.
>Which RD planet was this?

You had to ask, didn't you?  A quick run through my notes comes up with
"Solomeia".
I think that was a name the planet took after the Virus collapse.  Perhaps
some other TNE dinosaur can provide more detail.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Practice random acts of intelligence & senseless acts of self-control.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 08:43:36 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

Damien Fox phocks@goodnet.com types:
>HEHEHEHEH... most referees with no military experience will let you carry a
>folding shovel, no questions asked, even where a battle axe would be unheard
>of.  The canny ones always asked why I thought I'd need a shovel...
>OB Traveller: the current US Military still teaches (and issues) bayonets
>for the M-16.  Sort of like Imperial Marines and their cutlasses.  What
>about the Army?

     Bayonets were use in the Falklands.   Fighting can get that close, so
you do need to train for it.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
           Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 7:56:08 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: for MTA2 computer game, need hints and distances chart

Ok:  I've got an unusable copy of the second megatraveller computer
game, as it apparently didn't come with the distances chart (that's 
the copy protection scheme).  Also, any hints on the second game
would be real helpful.

Heck, hints for the first game would be helpful.  I got to a certain 
point, then get blown up.



DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior ConfigMgt Engineer      dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 09:46:03 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #543

> Given the technology, I figure tele-presence would be the way to go
> for battle dress.  Nice comfy rooms for the operators with rotating
> shifts.  That means the suit in the field is combat ready 24 hours
> a day and isn't limited by human frailties such as biology or fear.
> 
> It's just a matter of replacing the trooper with servos, meson/
> satellite comm gear, and a VR rig.

Two words: light speed lag. 

Imagine trying to drive a car where you see everything 10 minutes
after it happends and your reaction take 10 minutes to happen.

Remote troopers will tend to walk into trees and such quite a bit.
And get blown away at the first ambush.
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:52:17 -0300
From: Les_Howie@keane.com
Subject: Traveller World Map -> Globe

Russell Bornschlegel wrote
>The quick and dirty solution is to take the central (continuous)
>band of triangles on the Traveller map and calling that 30
>degrees north latitude to 30 degrees south. Each polar
>section is 360/5 or 72 degrees of longitude; the north polar
>and south polar divisions are offset by 36 degrees from one
>another. Draw lines on the globe corresponding to those
>angles, and interpolate the stuff in between.


I have been mulling over this vs. true spherical triangles over the weekend.  I
think that it is the way to go. the disadvantage is that the  distortion is more
severe than the projection of spherical triangles.  I think that that is
outweighed by the upsides, which are:
(1) lines of latitude are straight lines on the map.  "How far north?" is a
simple question
(2) the math for the mapping is really very simple, at least for us old guys who
can't find their trig textbooks any more.

I'll have to come up with the equations and crunch this a bit.  The official
"Traveller" projection?  Is this the projection they used for Invasion:Earth, or
did they do something fancier (or perhaps a bit more loosey-goosey)?

Anyone out there have their books to hand?  What are the official size codes,
and their diameters in km (and is this a can of worms?  has it varied from
version to version?).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 10:32:46 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: swords, etc

Rick Stump writes:
"I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that 
my wife calls 'the axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel 
(wooden grips held on with brass fittings) with serrated edges, 
a back-spike, and beveled front edge - and a wrist thong! She 
refuses to let me buy a gun because the spatula would be much 
better in close combat...."

	I can just see my PC's reaction to something like this:
	"What do you mean he pulls that thing out of the kitchen 
	drawer? Who would have something like THAT in their 
	kitchen?"

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:54:47 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514)...

In a message dated 5/2/99 10:45:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< In San Francisco, it is perfectly legal to carry a sword.  The law
 specifies that blades shorter than 8" are forbidden.
 --  >>

When my friend was in the service; some idiot cop (no flames; I was one...) 
hassled him for wearing a sword, even though he was on the way to a military 
ball and was wearing an officer's full dress uniform...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 11:31:26 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: starship prices

Black ICE writes:
<snipped>
"Since a typical starship loan is for forty years, we may
guesstimate that a starship retains about 50% of its value 
at forty years, adjusted for model and condition.

After that, figure that for each additional payoff period, 
the value declines by another 50%, assuming normal maintenance, 
unless collector's considerations come into play."

	I like this. Just give starship prices a 'half-life' of
	40 years. This works out to price x [1/{2^(age/40)}]. Of
	course, replacement of major components (such as drives)
	would modify this. Now, a 40 year-old vessel is much 
	cheaper to buy, but is it as reliable? Is the annual 
	overhaul more expensive? more frequent? Do components
	break down more often? Are they harder to repair? Is
	the chance of missjumping increased? Is all this affected 
	by how well the vessel has been maintained? My general
	thoughts have been that after 40-50 years (depending on 
	maintainance) the vessel starts to become less reliable.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:29:47 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: RealLife(tm) Anti-Matter Rockets

Found an article in the Times (U.K. version)
about a scientific team which is working on
the containment and transportation of anti-
matter as rocket fuel.

According to the article,

"...The team is headed by George Schmidt, who
claims the technology will be ready within two
years although it will probably be 20 years
before it is used regularly."

"We're currently working on a means of storing
the anti-matter,"  he says. "The really tricky
thing is that you don't want it to come into
contact with any matter because it will be
annihilated. So we're building containers that
hold it in a really strong magnetic field so
it's basically levitated inside the container."

"Once we've finished working on the container
technology we are planning to get some anti-matter
from Chicago and check that we can actually collect
and transport the system successfully."

"Then, probably in two years from now, we hope to
have a  demonstration model set up that we will
propel with an anti-matter drive. We'll invite
people from Nasa and the press to come and see
the first time ever somebody has propelled a
vehicle using anti-matter."

The full article can be found at the following
site:
http://www.artigen.com/newswire/scitech.html

BTW, Happy "May Day" to all the TML'rs in the
U.K.!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:52:29 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: starship prices

Ian Ferguson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
I like this. Just give starship prices a 'half-life' of
	40 years. This works out to price x [1/{2^(age/40)}]. Of
	course, replacement of major components (such as drives)
	would modify this. Now, a 40 year-old vessel is much 
	cheaper to buy, but is it as reliable? Is the annual 
	overhaul more expensive? more frequent? Do components
	break down more often? Are they harder to repair? Is
	the chance of missjumping increased? Is all this affected 
	by how well the vessel has been maintained? My general
	thoughts have been that after 40-50 years (depending on 
	maintainance) the vessel starts to become less reliable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One question: how modular are starship components? When that
annual maintenance comes around, are things getting repaired or
replaced**?

With 2% of purchase price paid every year for maintenance, in
addition to any payments for anything actually worn out or damaged
between annual maintenance stops, it may be that your 40 year old
free trader has a 5 year old sensor array, an 8 year old laser turret
mechanism, a 2 year old fusion containment shell, etc., etc., etc...

Older ships should be incrementally harder to maintain and repair,
but I think it should hit a limit at some age, to represent a ship that
is less and less original/outdated equipment and more and more 
modern, maintainable subsystems. Sure, it would be tough to find
circuit boards for a MeriTech Wideband Scanner nowadays, but that
system was installed in the _Faraway Lady_ back in 1076 - we ripped
that out and put in a nice InterComp 23XR years ago...

Walt Smith

** By "replaced", I of course mean that the maintenance yard pulled
the part, replaced it with a reconditioned one, and sent the old part to
their shipyard workshop to be reconditioned for the next ship. Since the
shipyard is only paying labor and tools, plus the occaisional part they
initially accept as "refurbishable" but later have to discard, they may be
able to swap pretty expensive parts.  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:08:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation (and drop tank economics)

On 05/02/99 08:45:09 you wrote:
>
>I was wondering how one would deprectiate the value of a starship.
>
>Consider a free trader, MCr37.08 (CT, Book 2). Now, assuming this ship was
>taken care of (regular mainentance, battle damage repaired) and it has
>completed it's 40 year loan with the bank. How would you figure out it's
>value? It certainly wouldn't be worth what it is new.

	Depreciation is an accounting convention.  Economists don't really believe in it.  An 
asset's value depends on what its use to you is and/or what others will pay you for it.  For a 
business asset like a starship, the only thing that matters is how much money it can make you 
and how much it costs to operate.  Presumably an old ship hauls cargo just as well as a new one.  
Maybe it's a little harder getting passengers, but assuming not, it earns just as much revenue 
as a new ship.  The only way an old ship becomes less valuable is if it costs more to maintain.  
Presumably this is the case.  The value of a ship drops until the Return on Investment from 
buying an old ship matches that of buying a new ship less the greater operating costs.

>Next, how would the use of drop tanks effect the depreciation? This question
>assumes the ideas that Ian and Gary have been discussing. That newer ships
>would be designed without internal fuel tankage, in favor of drop tanks and
>the older ships would have to be modified to compete. (I'm not starting a
>thread about the feasabilty of this idea, it already exists as re:drop tank
>economics.)

	When news about drop tanks breaks the value of every conventional ship drops until it gets 
the same ROI as a new drop tank ship.

>I was wondering how an older, paid for ship, would compare to a new ship
>designed in the above manner. My guess is that the older ships don't have
>their mortgage to pay and would be able to compete on that basis. I was also
>guessing that a couple of older ships could probably be bought for the price
>of one of these new ships and their combined cargo would outdo the new ship.
>I don't have any doubt that a large drop-tank ship could outperform an equal
>ship that uses internal tankage, but wouldn't the availablity of older ships
>balance out the economics?

	Yep.  Conventional ships will be on the scene until they wear out.  Drop tanks will 
replace them slowly rather than all at once.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 12:45:28 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Adventure Class Ships Vol II

I'm looking for someone who owns Adventure Class Ships Vol II.  If you own a
copy of this product and are willing to answer a few questions about the
deckplans included in the package please contact me at Paul@Schirf.com

Paul Schirf

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #553
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Traveller-digest         Monday, May 3 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 554



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Telepresence
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999	  #514)...
re: other strange laws...
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
re: RealLife(tm) Anti-Matter Rockets
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: I *do* have... (was: Swords in the Kitchen)
Re: Copyright
Re: Vargr stereotypes
Re: Bayonets
Re: Telepresence
Re: Type D-1 Service Station 
Request
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Fleet Combat (was re: Today is Camerone Day)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:51:17 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Telepresence

>Imagine trying to drive a car where you see everything 10 minutes
>after it happends and your reaction take 10 minutes to happen.
>
>Remote troopers will tend to walk into trees and such quite a bit.
>And get blown away at the first ambush.
>--
>Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
>Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

8 minutes something for light to go an AU. Telepresence from orbit would be
less than 1 second lightlag two way given an orbit of less than 150 000 km.
Not much as most combat decisions are on a longer timescale than that.
Equip the battledress with some low level robotics to have it walk around
on its own when out of contact and you'd be fine.

A decent BattleDress with operator inside would probably also have some low
level robotics in to walk an unconscious soldier to safety etc (or for the
cynic; to walk that expensive piece of technology home possibly ejecting
the meat inside to speed up).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:59:36 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999	  #514)...

>I know in NYC, you can't carry a baseball bat around the street unless you
>also have a ball...
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

A ball or balls ;-)


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 13:19:51 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: re: other strange laws...

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes:
> "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net> wrote:
>>Consider a place like Texas.  Not sure about our law level, but it is still
>>a felony for carrying wirecutters.
>>Dates back to the range wars and fence cutting.
>>Wonder what type of silly laws some worlds might have for the equivilant of
>>wire cutters.
>In Chester (UK, on the Welsh/English border) there is still a local bylaw
>to the effect that if you see a welshman on one of the cities' bridges
>after nightfall, looking threatening, you should shoot him with a bow and
>arrow.!

     Here in Massachusetts, you can still shoot Rhode Islanders if you
catch 'em on your lawn. :-)
I think the only law concerning legal killing on bridges only applies to
Kennedys.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
          You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:30:13 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

>It's a matter of cost and scale and mission.  The Rampart cannot hold
>*ground* while a Trepida (and even better, an Astrin) can.  A rampart (much
>less a Close Escort or Destroyer) is 1/3 more expensive than a Trepida (7
>times the price of an Astrin), while a CE is almost 15 times as expensive as
>a Trepida and 50 times as expensive as an Astrin.  A DD is about 100 times as
>expensive as the Trepida and an Astrin a helluva lot more.  ;-)

The point is not to compare the Trepida or Astrin to the Rampart, but to
the Air/Raft.

If any armored or unarmored vehicle can be killed from orbit, there is no
need for heavy weapons or heavy armor on vehicles.  Only enough armor to
resist fire from foot (armored) infantry is needed.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 19:46:48 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: RealLife(tm) Anti-Matter Rockets

"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> writes:

>BTW, Happy "May Day" to all the TML'rs in the
>U.K.!

Thanks,

Dom (Enjoying a break from the Beer, BBQ and Bouncy Castle)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 19:44:09 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>  Yeah, but they're real close to the 6" limit :)

;-)

>  Do you have any idea how much of a pain it's been getting those books?
>
>  (OK, actually, you do...)

Yep, but now you have BITS, SJG and Leisure Games as overseas sources....

Better than six months ago.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:45:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was: Swords in the Kitchen)

Rick Stump wrote:
> I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that my
> wife calls 'the axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel (wooden
> grips held on with brass fittings) with serrated edges, a
> back-spike, and beveled front edge - and a wrist thong! She
> refuses to let me buy a gun because the spatula would be much
> better in close combat....

I've got one, too, or something very similar.  My roommate and I
call it the "Spatula of Death."  Hasn't helped with any break ins,
but it does serve to keep unruly players in their place.  ;)

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 14:41:09 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright

SD Mooney wrote:

> Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>
> >The Darrians seem introspective to me, and not hell bent on
> >getting rich through innovation.  And the Zhodani keep their
> >Proles down where they belong.  They are the proletariat after all.
>
> Malicious Imperial slander. The Consulate is a humane society - *we* don't
> allow murderers, thieves and liars to walk about and damage society. Thanks
> to our humane ethos, the mentally unbalanced soon become happy, well
> adjusted, dutyful members of society.
>

Hmm.  I've heard this somewhere before . . .

Adventure Idea:  Zhodani Gulag.
Somewhere that the 'independent' types with psionics are sent,
as well as any proles resistant to reeducation.  PCs are hired
by a Zhodani ex-patriot to break in and help a formerly high-ranking
Zhodani noble out, so that the Zhodani revolution can move forward.


> >(Why has it taken me so long to realize the Prole is short for
> >Proletariat?  Compartmentalized mind, I guess.  Hmmm,
> >anyone want to speculate on the effect of a Zhodani revolution?
> >Mwahaha.)
>
> Hmm. It is stated explicitly in GT AR1. Not sure about the CT manual but I
> suspect that is also the case.
>

Haven't yet got the former, and the latter is in my hardcover compilation
of all the AMs, behind a glass case, under guard, surrounded by a moat.

>
> Dom
>
> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
> "Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
> that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
> You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
> 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
> MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 11:55:37 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr stereotypes

Paolo Marino wrote:
> 
> I start by quoting the following:

 
> If Vargr descend from dogs in the same way in which we descend from
> monkeys, I wonder if all the Vargr jokes have any substance: I don't really
> think that running an hypotethical, similarly-sized monkey shelter would be
> less difficult. I have admittedly much less experience with monkeys, but I
> really wonder if dogs, as a species, would justify the ideas often
> expressed regarding the Vargrs.

Well, for one, Vargr are descended from canids the same way we are
decended from early primates, Canis familiaris is actually a newer
species than Vargr are; more properly they are descended from whatever
the ancestor of Canis lupus, or the wolf, was.

Wolves actually have rather extraordinarily stable social groupings, and
even dogs will form a stable pack after a time of sorting out the
hierarchy. The actual leadership, and exact grouping of the pack
hierarchy may be fluid, but the _structure_ is quite stable.

However, there seem to be limits on the size of stable packs, derived
from the personal control of the pack alpha; this seems to be the basis
of Vargr sociology. The rest seems to have been invented from whole
cloth, to make them an interesting alien.

Which, don't forget, they are...they're no more wolves in funny clothing
than we are australopithecines in funny clothing...

Moreover, they were rather extensively tinkered with by Grandfather, so
all bets are off.

In general, though, the stereotype of Vargr in the Third Imperium is
just that, a stereotype.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 19:19:15 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bayonets

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Bayonets


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
>
>
>
>>While I'd heard rumors of US troops fixing bayonets as recently as
the
>>war in Vietnam, most of what I've heard tells me that bayonet
training
>>is intended to increase the agressiveness of the average soldier.
>>Shooting at paper targets is one thing, shoving a foot of steel into
a
>>man-shaped figure that's right in front of you is another. The "yell
at the
>>top of your lungs and charge" bit probably helps as well.

>>


<snip>

>I believe most standing armies (and branches therein) still give
bayonet
>training.  The British Royal Marines last used a bayonet charge as
recently
>as the Faulklands against Argie troops.  On little known, not made
public
>report sites that many of the Argentinian  captured had freshly
soiled
>pants, as did some of the dead.
>
>Not a noble way to die or be captured and the British made it known
to other
>Argie troopies what had happened.  It is believed that the afore
mentioned
>incident was another reason why the Argentinian troops on the island
>capitulated so quickly towards the end.  But that is just "hearsay."
>
>--  The Roc
>


Yup, we Brit's just don't consider it a 'proper' war without at least
one bayonet charge <g>, especially against low morale conscripts.

I'm not 100% certain, but I *think* some of the British troops in the
Gulf used their bayonets in action.

The main reason for bayonet charges is to cause the enemy to rout /
surrender, not to actually stab them (unless they *don't* get the
message <g>).  Since the development  of massed volley fire with
muskets,  infantry charges seldom end in melee as either the side
being charged runs away or surrenders, or they put up sufficient
firepower to cause the chargers to retreat.  Only when charging strong
defensive positions do both sides tend to get into an actual melee, as
the defenders are unlikely to run or surrender until physically
beaten.  Solid walls are a great morale booster <g>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 12:11:19
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

At 06:51 PM 5/3/99 -0500, you wrote:

>8 minutes something for light to go an AU. Telepresence from orbit would be
>less than 1 second lightlag two way given an orbit of less than 150 000 km.
>Not much as most combat decisions are on a longer timescale than that.
>Equip the battledress with some low level robotics to have it walk around
>on its own when out of contact and you'd be fine.

Uh-huh.  So when you walk into an ambush, and the Claymores are going off
around you and you're being raked with autofire, that extra second won't hurt?

>A decent BattleDress with operator inside would probably also have some low
>level robotics in to walk an unconscious soldier to safety etc (or for the
>cynic; to walk that expensive piece of technology home possibly ejecting
>the meat inside to speed up).

The BD designs I'm playing with using GURPS vehicles all have computers
that can get the operator out off trouble.  The problem is, if the operator
is injured, there's usually large holes in the armor, meaning that system
efficiency is wayyy down.

On another note concerning telepresence and robots in combat, I've always
seen the Zhodani reliance on warbots to be a reflection of a culture that
doesn't produce too many warrior types.  To be honest, I don't think they
want too many proles with a fighting mind set.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:27:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Type D-1 Service Station 

>   Here's a pretty near gold-plated sample "fuel station":
> 
>                 TV-A811121-370000-44002-0       MCr 242.4      1000 tons
>                   batts.    1     11  1                           TL=12
>                                                                 Crew=11
>         Cargo=17. Passengers=20. LHyd=580. EP=10. Agility=0. Low=0.
> 
>   This is a design that's easy to build and to maintain in addition
> to being as flexible as possible; both rapid in-system and independent
> interstellar redeployment are supported by its own drive capabilities.
> Series production reduces cost to just under MCr 194.

Thing is, they don't start looking good til about 5000 tons.  A 1000 ton 
station is good for fueling up stuff like 200 ton Free Traders, mebbe a couple 
subbie liners, but that's about it.  The 10KT 'bulk frieghters' need 1000 tons 
of hydrogen *per jump number*.  I can see this station being used by the XBoat 
system at 1000 tons, though you'd probably want to tack on some modules to 
allow you to do some maintanance of the Xboats.
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:37:31 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Request

Gentles,

 need someone who can supply me with a scan of the K'kree and Aslan scripts
in whatever places they may have occured over the years.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:40:14 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In a message dated 5/2/99 11:49:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
eclipse@ultranet.com writes:

<< 
 Speaking of good mil-SF being out of print.  The first two books of the
 Draka series (Marching through Georgia and Under the Yoke) are out of
 print.  They are due to be reprinted, along with the third volume (The >>

A fabulously disturbing series of books...Amazing how one can grow to care 
about such *evil* people...
I can't wait for the sequel to The Drakkon...

Now for an OB Trav Question...What system does Traveller use to 'game' Fleet 
actions....?There have been several references to large scale combat but no 
mention of a game system...Or does Traveller have its own...?
BobS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:46:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
> 
> >>I don't have a problem with that.  I never have.  I *do* have problems with 
> >>somebody's logic when they tell me that building ships without jump tankage
> >>is cheaper than building them with, then say 'well, you use this cheap
> >>station at the 100 diameter limit to hold your fuel'. The numbers don't
> >>support the allegations that non-fueled ships are cheaper.
> 
> If somebody has told you that, then that somebody is mistaken. OTOH, I
> suspect that you may just have misunderstood his point. A drop tank ship
> is not cheaper than the same sized conventional ship. But it carries
> a lot more cargo and/or passengers, so the per-unit cost is smaller.
> Or that somebody may have been talking about ships with an equivalent
> capacity, which will be smaller and cheaper. Considerably cheaper,
> especially with high jump numbers.

Again, you're not looking at the *system*.  With a stock Free Trader, the 'system' is one ship, the Free Trader.  With fueling stations, the system is the Traders *and* the fueling station.  Now postulate an attack on the station.  Since it's sitting there, undefendable, it's toast.  Your system is now broke until you replace the station.

The 'economy' you're talking about is only with 1 *component* of the system, *not* the system.  And it absolutely *relies* on the system.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:43:17 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >> Also, since one of the changes is to jump-6 routes, you open up
> >> a _lot_ of alternate routes.  That means you have to hit a lot
> >> of system to cut off traffic.
> >
> >Not if you're going after point of origin.  Who cares where outbound ships are 
> >going if you whack out the outbound fuel point?  Once they're there in the 
> >system, they aren't going anywhere to tell people *you're* there.
> 
>   No, but the picket ships sitting quietly in the system will - even a neatly
> trimmed Striker (i.e., CT/OTU) budget goes a long way, let alone TCS money.
> One of the first things you discover upon hearing that "limited intelligence"
> only applies if you don't have a ship in-system is that scrapping a Strike
> Cruiser can buy several hundred little picket gnats.

Funny, I've been *assured* an Armoured Beachball From Hell can carve the 
testicles off a fly at 1.48 million klicks on a stationary target (see my late 
not-lamented piracy thread of about 6-8 months ago) the size of your average 
Corsair.  Those are an order of magnitude *SMALLER* than a 5KT fueling 
station.  Under this theory, you don't have to get within orbital distance of 
the target; it's not going anywhere.  So *WHY* is a 400 ton Corsair toast at 
1.48 million klicks with *one shot* and a 5000 ton fueling station 
invulnerable at that distance?  Can't be armour; I've been assured that armour 
is irrelevant.  Can't be mobility; a plain jane station has *zero* mobility.  
Can somebody please explain this to me?

</sarcasm>

You can't have it both ways, guys.  Either you get one situation or you get 
the other.  What's it gonna be?
 
> >> Another point is that they are realatively cheap, and it just won't be
> >> that hard to crank out replacements.  I will be a lot cheaper
> >> than replacing ships (and so that is what will remain the primary
> >> target of commerce raiders).
> >
> >A *BILLION* credits or so is not relatively cheap compared to a 30 *MILLION* 
> >credit starship.  And if it gets whacked out, you get to spend *ANOHTER* 
> >billion credits to replace it.  So where's your 'economy'?
> 
>   You're radically over-estimating the cost of a bare-bones installations
> (which is, after all, what's needed). OTOH, I suspect that you're much
> closer wrt the military disadvantages of such a system.

I was using numbers by the book, in a canonical fashion, not using wishful 
thinking.  Under HG rules, you *NEED* that bridge and a high powered computer, 
and you *ALSO* need at *LEAST* a Power Plant-1 to power the specified 150 beam 
lasers in 50 turrets on that 5KT hull.  WRT the military disadvantages, the 
damned things are indefensible under *ANY* rules system I can see.  It's a 
sitting duck waiting to be broiled with a nice honey glaze.

> ...
> >I don't have a problem with that.  I never have.  I *do* have problems with 
> >somebody's logic when they tell me that building ships without jump tankage is 
> >cheaper than building them with, then say 'well, you use this cheap station at 
> >the 100 diameter limit to hold your fuel'.  The numbers don't support the 
> >allegations that non-fueled ships are cheaper.
> 
>   Ooh, that sounds like a CT design challenge...

You're not looking at the whole picture.  You end up with *TWO* hulls, not *ONE*.  One's the ship.  The other is the fueling station.  Building one ship is cheaper than building a ship *and* the fueling station to let it jump.  And the fueling station is inherently more vulnerable in wartime; it's almost *trivial* to take it out because it *ain't goin anywhere*, so when your ship comes home, you've got a multimillion credit ship *STUCK* in its home system, running up bills and not generating income for you.

The more fueling stations you have to build to replace the ones getting whacked out by commerce raiders, the higher per ton cost of shipped goods.  The money doesn't come from nowhere, it has to be generated.  If you're waiting for your fueling station to come online, you can't generate the money to get the station back online.  Simple economics.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:53:42 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Sun, 02 May 1999 01:08:01 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>What do you mean, they don't have to be predetermined?  If you have a fueling
>station in orbit at 100 diameters from a given body, it *WILL* be
>predetermined where it will be.  It's simple orbital mechanics, the same
>thing
>that keeps Earth's orbit straight.  Once you know its approximate position
>and
>orbital dynamics, you'll know its approximate position *forever*.

But orbits can be changed.  (in Traveller, they can be easily
changed) and ship outbound mearly have to ask for coordinates.

[Other ways around the problem have been snipped....]

>> Also, since one of the changes is to jump-6 routes, you open up
>> a _lot_ of alternate routes.  That means you have to hit a lot
>> of system to cut off traffic.

>Not if you're going after point of origin.  Who cares where outbound ships
>are
>going if you whack out the outbound fuel point?  Once they're there in the
>system, they aren't going anywhere to tell people *you're* there.

Well, planets that export a lot are easily going to have spares
(in fact, these things are cheap enough that you are likely to
have a bunch a small ones in different locations, rather than
one large one, which will make taking them all out quite difficult).

Even so, you would only temporarily prevent exports from _one_
world.

[Other ways around the problem have been snipped....]

>> Another point is that they are realatively cheap, and it just won't be
>> that hard to crank out replacements.  I will be a lot cheaper
>> than replacing ships (and so that is what will remain the primary
>> target of commerce raiders).

>A *BILLION* credits or so is not relatively cheap compared to a 30 *MILLION*
>credit starship.  And if it gets whacked out, you get to spend *ANOHTER*
>billion credits to replace it.  So where's your 'economy'?

I think you are picturing huge space stations.  That is not what
you would have.  You would have a few fuel tanks and that is
about it.  You might put a thruster pack on them if you want
to move them around.

>> In the end, there are a _number_ of things that can be done
>> and they won't the an achilles heal.  In fact, you could just
>> strap demountable tanks to them in war and simply use them
>> as lower jump ships.
>
>I don't have a problem with that.  I never have.  I *do* have problems with
>somebody's logic when they tell me that building ships without jump
>tankage is
>cheaper than building them with, then say 'well, you use this cheap
>station at
>the 100 diameter limit to hold your fuel'.  The numbers don't support the
>allegations that non-fueled ships are cheaper.

I couldn't disagree more.  The numbers I (and Ian) have posted
in this thread say otherwise.  Even number from more sceptical
members admit to _at least_ a 25% savings (and probably considerably
more).

>> >And no, *military* ships IMTU aren't designed to *exclusively* use drop
>>tanks
>> >to the sacrifice of all internal jump fuel.
>>
>> I agree that military ships won't be designed to use _just_ drop
>> tanks.  OTOH, being able to do a full jump-6 and arrive with
>> full tanks is a major advantage.
>
>You do that by strapping on a set of tanks, burning the tank fuel, ditching
>the tanks, and jumping, which has been canonical for what, 20 years now?
>That's what drop tanks were *designed for*, to let you do two jumps in a row.

Well, it isn't that simple.  They have been
briefly mention and generally not explored at all.  (Its like there
is a news entry about the discovery of jump-8, a ship design and
maybe another mention, and then no discussion of it at all).  They
cause a number of problems that have never been addressed.  In
fact the description of what jump fuel is used for in GT contridicts
the description of how they work.  The fact that the trader in
the Traveller Adventure had only demountable tanks to get across
j-2 rifts indicates they aren't in general use.

>> See my ealier post.  Worlds with BTN down around 6.5 will
>> have some such service.  This doesn't even qualify as a minor
>> route and, in the sample sector from Far Trader, even some
>> of the E's would qualify.

>No.  Type C ports only have unrefined fuel availiable.  Type D's are the
>same,
>only with less extensive facilities.  And Type E's are just wide spots to set
>down on.

None of which prevents you from parking a fuel shuttle at the port.

>  If there's no facilities to adequately take care of visiting
>starships, what makes you think there's facilities to make and recover drop
>tanks?

The only facility you need is a fuel shuttle.

>  My take on it is this:  if they don't have refined fuel availiable,
>they ain't got drop tanks availiable.  Period.  How much simpler do you need
>it?

I don't need it simpler, I need it more believable.

>> >  Filling this
>> >space *after* the fuel is used and *before* the jump would be
>>impractical at
>> >best, impossible at worst.
>>
>> And why would that be?

>The ship is about to jump.  Even with T4 rules, the ship must jump within an
>*hour*.  You won't have *TIME* to load the space where the collapsed tank is
>before the ship *HAS* to jump or suffer penalties for a misjump, or abort the
>jump entirely and *WASTE* the fuel it burned for the jump.

Why does it take an hour?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:53:34 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Fleet Combat (was re: Today is Camerone Day)

BobS wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
Now for an OB Trav Question...What system does Traveller use to 'game' Fleet 
actions....?There have been several references to large scale combat but no 
mention of a game system...Or does Traveller have its own...?
>>>>>>>>>>
High Guard (from Classic Traveller) is really designed for squadron level
work and below, but does include a statistical combat system for
large-scale stuff - 100 battleships vs 100 battleships and such.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #554
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Traveller-digest         Monday, May 3 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 555



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Law Level (was: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514))
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Bayonets
Re: Telepresence
Re: Copyright
re: Fleet Combat
Re: Telepresence
Re: Bayonets
re: Fleet Combat
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Telepresence
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Type D-1 Service Station
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...
Background color source
Golf and the Vilani
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Space port laws and stuff
Golf and the Vilani
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 14:04:26 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 02:03:01 -0700
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>>The problem is that there is no reason why.  It just seems
>>to be an arbitrary rule.

>  Agreed, but deliberately adding further capabilities only worsens the
>situation. Presumably (i.e., all tank types are discussed in one section
>in TCS) external rigid tanks can't be "folded" in minutes, and collapsible
>tanks can neither be used externally nor used directly for Jump.

But you really aren't deliberately adding further capablities.
They follow from the descriptions as presented.  IMO, it is far
better for GT to avoid "reintroducing them".  That way all you
have to do is either ignore the TNS entry or accept that, for
some reason  they turned out to be impractical.  The latter
is a bit hokey, but at least you do it once (especially since
it saves you having to reconcile the description of how
fuel is used that is present their with how it is presented
elsewhere) rather than
having to have a suite of hokey explainations to make sure
they work a certain why, having to come up with a more
complicated explination that walk a blade's edge of "just
barely pratical", and having to be reminded of all this everytime
you think about them.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 21:23:15 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Law Level (was: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #514))

On Sun, 2 May 1999 20:59:42 -0400, Merrick Burkhardt
<merrick@shell.rt66.com> wrote:

>ObTrav: I wonder if high law level worlds might _require_ arms. Everybody 
>does service then keeps weapon as a reserve/deputy police, etc. Law level
>is high then because there is little crime (the guy you rob would
>shoot you, or if not him, anybody else around). Kinda like
>Switzerland where there are many REAL military weapons in
>circulation. An interesting spin on law level. (or would you rate
>that world as low law level?)

I use a semi-canonical interpretation of LL as being the chance
that you will experience a significant encounter with the law
enforcement arm of the local government.  Under that scheme, what
you're describing might very well be a low LL, because with low
crime, the police have less reason to hassle you.  OTOH, if
"stop-and-frisk" is routine, that would imply a high LL,
regardless of what the actual crime rate or legal weapons are.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:22:21 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

>In mail you write:
>
>>> In a message dated 5/1/99 2:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
>>>
>>> <<
>>>  menn (a company?) held a chokepoint on a river  >>
>>> A Battalion...The story- West of Honor......
>>
>> A company, Company A of the 501st Provisional Battalion, under Lt
>> Harlan 'Hal' Slater, at Ft Beersheba.  Funny you should mention that;
>> I'm in the process of rereading West of Honor at the moment...
>
>Great! Since I can't find my copy, could you post the words to the ine
>marine "march"? That's the one about "We've left blood on the..."

The one that's the same as a Kipling poem?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:24:52 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bayonets

In a message dated 5/3/99 12:09:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk writes:

<< Only when charging strong
 defensive positions do both sides tend to get into an actual melee, as
 the defenders are unlikely to run or surrender until physically
 beaten.  Solid walls are a great morale booster <g>
  >>

That makes sense. I once read somewhere (don't remember...drat) that the only 
real use for the bayonet (besides the reasons previous posters stated), is 
for 1) crowd control and 2) for VERY close quarters work, like house 
clearing, where someone could pop up suddenly after catching a soldier in the 
middle of a magazine change. As a lot of the new bayonets are doing double 
duty as fighting knives/multi tools, there is no extra weight for the soldier 
to carry as he is already going to be issued some kind of tool...l. My 
personal opinion is that it's a useful auxiliary as I have to carry a knife 
anyway...

Ob Trav: "Super bayonets" to open up Battledress....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:35:54 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>On another note concerning telepresence and robots in combat, I've always
>seen the Zhodani reliance on warbots to be a reflection of a culture that
>doesn't produce too many warrior types.  To be honest, I don't think they
>want too many proles with a fighting mind set.

 It fits with the duty to others concept of Zho society. By using warbots,
the Zho forces are exercising their duty to protect intelligent, albeit
disenfranchised, life. GT AR1 has an interesting comment about the Zho not
wanting to fight, or consider genocide, but that they will if pushed.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:32:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright

Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>Hmm.  I've heard this somewhere before . . .

The Zho's are either the most repressive society out *or* the most
enlightned and cring for their citizens. Possibly both...

>> Hmm. It is stated explicitly in GT AR1. Not sure about the CT manual but I
>> suspect that is also the case.
>Haven't yet got the former, and the latter is in my hardcover compilation
>of all the AMs, behind a glass case, under guard, surrounded by a moat.

Ditto mine, except for the moat and the guard ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:41:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Fleet Combat

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:

>BobS wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>Now for an OB Trav Question...What system does Traveller use to 'game' Fleet
>actions....?There have been several references to large scale combat but no
>mention of a game system...Or does Traveller have its own...?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>High Guard (from Classic Traveller) is really designed for squadron level
>work and below, but does include a statistical combat system for
>large-scale stuff - 100 battleships vs 100 battleships and such.

The main system is that from the FFW boardgame, represented in Imperial
Squadrons for T4. No one has produced a system which links designs at HG
level to this though.

The IS version ties the fleet sizes to Pocket Empires' data.

Don McK produced a Bk 4 Mercenary-like system a while back.

Walt S has been working on an intermediate system between HG and TCS.

Dom

FFW - Fifth Frontier War
TCS - Trillion Credit Squadron

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:53:41 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

>> Remote troopers will tend to walk into trees and such 
>> quite a bit.  And get blown away at the first ambush.
>
> 8 minutes something for light to go an AU. Telepresence
> from orbit would be less than 1 second lightlag two way
> given an orbit of less than 150 000 km.

Better yet, how about 100-150 km behind the FEBA in a
command vehicle?  Effective lag at that distance?  Zero.
I don't have FF&S, how small can you make a meson comm
rig.  [Including the electronics/crypto-gear to tell the
command vehicle how to update the unit's realtime location
and thus maintain constant communication.]

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 17:59:22 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Bayonets

At 05:24 PM 5/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Ob Trav: "Super bayonets" to open up Battledress....:-)

A GURPS Monowire sword/knife/bayonet would be effective against BD that's
as light as the stuff in canonical Traveller (not the abomination that is
in Star Mercs... )  OTOH, Monowire isn't really canon AFAIK.

Details:  a ST 12 (reasonable for a soldier) has base swing damage of 2d-1.
 A broadsword does sw+1 damage for a total of 2d.  Adding monowire adds
another die of damage plus a 10 armor divisor.for a total of 3d(10)  That's
an average of 10.5 points of damage, which can penetrate an average of 105
points of DR and a maximum of 180..  This is not too bad, considering that
the GTL10 BD in GT has a DR of only 150 at best.  Admittedly, the GTL11 one
has 240DR on the head/torso (and my version of GTL12 BD has DR300).
However, if you can either get significantly stronger troops, better
weapons (like a Space Axe!) or best of all, give these weapons to powered
BD troopers, melee weapons can be quite effective.  Another option is
monowire claws/spurs on the BD....

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:01:35 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: re: Fleet Combat

At 10:41 PM 5/3/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Squadrons for T4. No one has produced a system which links designs at HG
>level to this though.


Hmm, this would be an awesome project for GT...  A fully integrated combat
system, one that can be used for anything from two Ramparts facing off to
hundreds of Battleships....  Dunno how it could be done though... :)


          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:23:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>Yep, but now you have BITS, SJG and Leisure Games as overseas sources....
>
>Better than six months ago.

  I haven't tried BITS directly yet, but I can imagine what Leisure Games
has to charge for shipping to the colonies. SJG's 40% S&H to Canada was
sufficiently hilarious that I decided to put off the purchase indefinitely.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:30:01 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> At 06:51 PM 5/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >8 minutes something for light to go an AU. Telepresence from orbit would be
> >less than 1 second lightlag two way given an orbit of less than 150 000 km.
> >Not much as most combat decisions are on a longer timescale than that.
> >Equip the battledress with some low level robotics to have it walk around
> >on its own when out of contact and you'd be fine.
>
> Uh-huh.  So when you walk into an ambush, and the Claymores are going off
> around you and you're being raked with autofire, that extra second won't hurt?

IIRC, there was an article in Wired that compared optimal speed for "twitch"
games, the fastest speed people could react to, or handle the information,
and it was 70ms.  Which is also the time it takes light to go from one side of the

globe to the other.  (I'm not going to do the math myself). ;-)


> On another note concerning telepresence and robots in combat, I've always
> seen the Zhodani reliance on warbots to be a reflection of a culture that
> doesn't produce too many warrior types.  To be honest, I don't think they
> want too many proles with a fighting mind set.

Good thinking.  Further supported by their emphasis on wearing their
funky combat armor.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:42:45 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>Again, you're not looking at the *system*.  With a stock Free Trader, the
'system' is one ship, the Free Trader.  With fueling stations, the system is
the Traders *and* the fueling station.  Now postulate an attack on the
station.  Since it's sitting there, undefendable, it's toast.  Your system
is now broke until you replace the station.
>
>The 'economy' you're talking about is only with 1 *component* of the
system, *not* the >system.  And it absolutely *relies* on the system.

  IMHO you're quite right about the military down-side, although that's not
very relevant more than 15-20 parsecs from the frontier. However, the big
military disadvantages won't stop the sector lines & megacorps from going
over to the new system in a decade or three at most; the potential economic
advantages are too great for a border war every couple of centuries to be
a big concern.

 And, of course, warfare within the heartlands of the Imperium is unthinkable.

        Steven Hudson                                                   :|

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:50:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Type D-1 Service Station

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Type D-1 Service Station 
...
>Thing is, they don't start looking good til about 5000 tons.  A 1000 ton 
>station is good for fueling up stuff like 200 ton Free Traders, mebbe a couple 
>subbie liners, but that's about it.  The 10KT 'bulk frieghters' need 1000 tons 
>of hydrogen *per jump number*.  I can see this station being used by the XBoat 
>system at 1000 tons, though you'd probably want to tack on some modules to 
>allow you to do some maintanance of the Xboats.

 i) scaling one up is pretty darned simple, although it will of course be
even more cost-efficient; at TL F that 5000-tonner will cost ~MCr 270?

 ii) Oops! I just added four 1000-ton "fuel rocks" (1kt type 8 hulls, unfitted)
to the cluster, for 3200 Dt of tankage at a further cost of MCr 2.88. Total 
cost of the F-0 Service Station is now somewhat under MCr 59 for 3840 Dt/L-Hyd.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 13:53:47 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>

> Unless such things have become a 'patriotic duty' and these people are
> seen as serving a vital function by keeping the men and women of the
> Imperial Services satisfied in their duties. Could even be a sort of
> Auxilary Corps to the regular services (registered and screened) which
> would help prevent nefarious agents of foreign powers from gaining access
> to Imperial Officers/Crew through the use of seduction.
> 
> Depends on how the culture of the Imperium (not of any one world) views
> sex. I would go for this more progressive model, and say the Imperium
> recognizes that people want/need to have satisfying sexual relations in
> their lives, and will function at a lower level after some period of being
> denied this. Of course it does mean you have to make sure you have the
> right mix of races on your brothel ship for visiting a particular fleet...

A new character career for Traveller _and_ a campaign idea right in the
same post!  I can't wait to see the character generation table.

Seriously, this is an issue in running interstellar armed forces.  Shaka
Zulu found that keeping the men in close quarters with limited
opportunities for female companionship made them more aggressive in
battle.  The Royal Navy of the same period found only an increase in
buggery.  In a force integrated with respect to gender and species,
policies to maintain military readiness will have to be carefully worked
out and monitored.  Studies are probably constantly being done.  ("Yeah,
well, it was hell serving on Resurgent Dragon in the 1090s, with that
sex study being done and us all the subjects.")

- --Glenn

Why is it that you always get a tired one when you're randy and a randy
one when you're tired?
- --not quite quoting Mandella on "confraternization", in The Forever War,
by Joe Haldeman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 14:00:20 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Background color source

> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
> 
> While going through some boxes of old college books this afternoon, I found
> "A Day In The Life Of Ivan Denisovich" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn.  It
 
> This would be an excellent source for GMs who want to send the players to prison.

It's a good movie, too, but I usually just use my own memories of junior
high school as the basis for any prison scenes.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 14:01:54 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Golf and the Vilani

> From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>

> > "Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> > 
> > > (2)  X-Files variant:  Golf is a Vilani game.  A Vilani ship crashed off
> > > the Orkney Islands in Pictish times.  The survivors were able to salvage
> > > their golf clubs and manual.  After founding the Pictish culture and
> > > making the bagpipe a more efficient weapon, they settled down to relax
> > > and taught the Scots how to play golf.
> 
> One quibble:  The Scots are not the only people who play bagpipes.  Clearly
> the improved Vilani pipes spread quickly throughout Europe and the Middle East.

The new, improved pipes would surely be in demand around the world.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 14:12:45 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

> From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>

> As a point of interest, In Queensland (again, I cannot speak for the rest of
> Australia), if you suffer a home intrusion and fear for your life, by law,
> you can only meet the assailant with *equal* force... ie:  If the villain
> has a stick, you can defend yourself with a stick (cricket/baseball bat),
> but cannot defend yourself with a knife or a gun!  If the villain has a
> knife, you cannot defend yourself with a gun!!  So it is better not to have
> a gun in the house under those circumstances it seems, as the majority of
> home intrusions are done with knives, syringes, and "clubs"

No, it seems that you should have two guns in your home -- one for the
dead intruder, and one for yourself.  Bear in mind that I'm not giving
any legal advice here, but it is the way some Traveller characters I
(and others ) have played would approach this particular problem.

> As for security staff (night watchmen and the like), if they shoot a
> criminal, I am assured that if the baddie doesn't have powder burn marks in
> his chest ("He was coming straight at me!!"), you better have a good lawyer

This shouldn't be a problem, either.  Once he's down, you can put those
powder burns wherever you need them.  (See disclaimer above.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 14:25:24 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

> From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>

>  I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that my wife
> calls 'the axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel (wooden grips held on
> with brass fittings) with serrated edges, a back-spike, and beveled front

(ROFL)

I've heard that household melee weapons should be things that you're
used to having in your hand anyway.  So a broom (which is just a bo
stick with bristles on one end) is good household weapon (for the person
who does the sweeping), as is a telephone.  I would say that I'm very
very used to having a pen in my hand, but except for the steel Cross
pen, a pen would only be effective if I could stick it in my opponent's
eye.

What will the familiar household items of the future be?  These are
weapons that PCs intruding where they're not supposed to be (and we all
know PCs like that) might face.

Ref:  It's completely dark inside the house.
...
PC #1:  I'm going around the corner, pistol first.
Ref:  OK show me.  [PC #1 does]  OK.  Is your laser target designator
on?
PC #1:  Yes.
Ref:  OK, you can see its beam in front of you.  At the same time, you
feel a burning in your eyes and hear a low "hissss".  Roll two d-6
please.
PC #1:  I rolled a four.
Ref:  [also rolling]  OK, you're blind and in such extreme pain that you
fall to the floor.  You'll need to roll again twice:  to see if you
twitched your gun hand and fired and if you cried out.

What was PC #1 hit with?  Hair spray.  (I was hit in the eyes with hair
spray by accident once as a child, and have since had a very healthy
respect for it.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:58:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>Funny, I've been *assured* an Armoured Beachball From Hell can carve the 
>testicles off a fly at 1.48 million klicks on a stationary target (see my late 
...
>Can somebody please explain this to me?

  Simple - an Armoured Beachball From Hell can't make you read the post:
">>>Not if you're going after point of origin. Who cares where outbound
ships are 
>>>going if you whack out the outbound fuel point?  Once they're there in the 
>>>system, they aren't going anywhere to tell people *you're* there.
...
>> No, but the picket ships sitting quietly in the system will"

  Besides, I think the ISPCA banned the fly emasculation maneuver...

...
>I was using numbers by the book, in a canonical fashion, not using wishful 
>thinking.  Under HG rules, you *NEED* that bridge and a high powered computer, 
>and you *ALSO* need at *LEAST* a Power Plant-1 to power the specified 150 beam 
>lasers in 50 turrets on that 5KT hull.  WRT the military disadvantages, the 
>damned things are indefensible under *ANY* rules system I can see.  It's a 
>sitting duck waiting to be broiled with a nice honey glaze.

  Sure, the 5kt fortress model was a bit deranged, but that's the designers
problem, not mine :>  But an actual fuel station is clearly quite reasonable
if built at a level appropriate to its siting. The fuel-rocks are actually
quite reasonable, although it might be about time to have type 8 & 9 hulls
pay for interior stowage space; KCr 1/Dt for interior fuel tankage and 0.5
for cargo space are very low but that can't be helped so long as various
other tankages list at KCr 1.

...
>You're not looking at the whole picture.  You end up with *TWO* hulls, not
*ONE*.  One's the ship.  The other is the fueling station.  Building one
ship is cheaper than building a ship *and* the fueling station to let it
jump.  And the fueling station is 

  I've argued the military vulnerability of these systems at length myself,
so I'm not arguing that. However, "building one ship is cheaper than building
a ship *and* the fueling station" sounds more like a credo than the result of
analysis; a small station such as I outlined earlier would require something
like KCr 100 in weekly business to make a profit, less if tweaked radically.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 14:29:41 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Space port laws and stuff

> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>

 
>    I've been in and out of the arts for 20 (yikes!) years.  I've never head
> a good explaination for a sai being a farm implement. :-)

Yea, sure, it's a weed-digger.  Try it some time on your dandelions. 
The middle spike has just been made longer in the sai.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:11:32 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Golf and the Vilani

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> >> "Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> >> 
> >> > (2)  X-Files variant:  Golf is a Vilani game.  A Vilani ship crashed off
> >> > the Orkney Islands in Pictish times.  The survivors were able to salvage
> >> > their golf clubs and manual.  After founding the Pictish culture and
> >> > making the bagpipe a more efficient weapon, they settled down to relax
> >> > and taught the Scots how to play golf.
 
> Bagpipes are one of the inventions (such as the "spearthrower" aka
> atl-atl and woomera) that has been made independently several times. 
> 
> While spanish pipes and Scottish pipes may be related, it's *really*
> doubtful that Indian and Nepalese pipes are related to them (though
> they are likely related to each other).

OK, so perhaps as the Vilani ship was falling into the atmosphere, the
crew were bailing out in personal re-entry things.  Some of them landed
in India and Nepal, and others in Spain.  The ship itself, with the golf
clubs, crashed near the Orkneys, and the crew who stayed with the ship
were able to recover them.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 14:54:37 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>

> Sorry, just been rereading Guns of the South, and the name popped into my
> head. Well, that and the fact that I don't know the names of any other
> automatic weapons except the M-16.

How do you referee if you can't analogize the NPCs' weapons for your
PCs?  

Ref:  Two guys with weapons in hand are approaching the front of the
hotel.  
PC #1:  What kind of weapons?
Ref:  They look sort of like Schmeissers, but with very thick barrels.

Schmeissers and Thompsons and Heckler and Kochs
Lugers and Rugers and quick-shooting Glocks
Uzis and Ingrams and modern Sterlings
These are a few of my favorite things.

(Sorry:  Luger, Ruger, and Glock only make semi-automatic pistols, but I
couldn't find anything to rhyme with FN or Mac-10 or Browning Automatic
Rifle or M-14.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:15:05 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale

> From: NordskAM@aol.com
> Subject: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale
> 
> I am putting my entire Traveller collection up for sale! Plus, a handful of
> Twighlight: 2000 titles, Combined Arms miniatures rules, Paranoia and 
> Werewolf: The Apocalypse. After 15 years of playing Traveller, I have no
> more time to play RPGs, and nobody to play them with with :-(  

That sounds like me, but I still keep all my stuff just in case.  Once
you sell it, of course, you may well find yourself laid off or your
employer will go bankrupt or whatever, and suddenly you'll have time.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #555
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest         Monday, May 3 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 556



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Spaceport laws and such
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Fleet Combat
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
re: other strange laws...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
re: Spaceport laws and such
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: Today is Camerone Day
The Swordsmen of San Francisco
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Bayonets
Re: The Swordsmen of San Francisco
Re: Type D-1 Service Station 
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Four Day Planet
Re: Bayonets
Re : solid hydrogen fuel
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:16:50 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such

> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

> Walter G. Smith wrote:

> > Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that "_always_"
> > to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
> > settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)
> 
> Please remind me to avoid worlds on which the FGMP-15 _might_ be
> considered a "hunting" weapon.... ;-)

An FGMP-15 might also be a mining tool.  After all, Seeker-class Type S
ships carry pulse lasers for that purpose.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:22:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

> From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>

> On 05/02/99 at 08:45 AM,  "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net said:
> 
> >I was wondering how one would deprectiate the value of a starship.

> I answer your question, IMO and IMTU, but you'll have to wade
> through about 90 lines of detail before you find it <grin>...

I play Traveller to get away from these kinds of problems ... but that's
the beauty of the game.  Every one can enjoy it, even the accountants.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 19:03:55 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleet Combat

In a message dated 5/3/99 6:06:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jg42@cornell.edu 
writes:

<< 
 Hmm, this would be an awesome project for GT...  A fully integrated combat
 system, one that can be used for anything from two Ramparts facing off to
 hundreds of Battleships....  Dunno how it could be done though... :)
  >>
There are several 'generic' fleet combat and campaigne rules on the web. This 
link will take you to one or more(I hope)...
<A HREF="http://www.his.com/visions/gamers.htm">Gaming Zone</A> .Maybe these 
could be converted...
Grognards site has some links to other systems too...I need to find the link 
tho...thought I saved it....::::sigh::::
BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:26:51 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> What will the familiar household items of the future be?  These are
> weapons that PCs intruding where they're not supposed to be (and we all
> know PCs like that) might face.
> 
> Ref:  It's completely dark inside the house.
> ...
> PC #1:  I'm going around the corner, pistol first.
> Ref:  OK show me.  [PC #1 does]  OK.  Is your laser target designator
> on?
> PC #1:  Yes.
> Ref:  OK, you can see its beam in front of you.  At the same time, you
> feel a burning in your eyes and hear a low "hissss".  Roll two d-6
> please.
> PC #1:  I rolled a four.
> Ref:  [also rolling]  OK, you're blind and in such extreme pain that you
> fall to the floor.  You'll need to roll again twice:  to see if you
> twitched your gun hand and fired and if you cried out.
> 
> What was PC #1 hit with?  Hair spray.  (I was hit in the eyes with hair
> spray by accident once as a child, and have since had a very healthy
> respect for it.)
> 
Reminds me of something I did in a Traveller session a while back. 
Assassins broke into my character's hotel room while she was in the
shower.  She took out the first one with...her squeeze bottle of
shampoo, right in the eyes.  Grabbed his SMG, and held off the other
assassins until help arrived.

> --Glenn

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:18:58 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: other strange laws...

> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>

>      Here in Massachusetts, you can still shoot Rhode Islanders if you
> catch 'em on your lawn. :-)

You may actually have a duty to do so.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 17:03:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>>  Agreed, but deliberately adding further capabilities only worsens the
>>situation. Presumably (i.e., all tank types are discussed in one section
>>in TCS) external rigid tanks can't be "folded" in minutes, and collapsible
>>tanks can neither be used externally nor used directly for Jump.
>
>But you really aren't deliberately adding further capablities.

  External folding fuel tanks that take up negligible internal volume aren't
new? And that do so fast enough to be stowed between emptying and Jump?

>They follow from the descriptions as presented.  IMO, it is far
>better for GT to avoid "reintroducing them".  That way all you
>have to do is either ignore the TNS entry or accept that, for
>some reason  they turned out to be impractical.  The latter
...

  Agreed. We've both been on that side of that question since the start.
But you're still wrong about the implications of fuel stations for the
effectiveness of an anti-commerce guerre de course doctrine. :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 20:25:01 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 07:29 PM 4/27/1999 +1200, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>
>>Marc C. "Blackie" DuQuesne is most definitely a villian. But he's
>>*interesting* damn it! He's only out to "get" the heroes because they
>>are in the way of his plans. Nothing personal. And when a threat to the
>>human race shows up, he negotiates a truce for the duration of the
>>crisis (and no longer! :-)
>
>Most definitely, I always thought Richard Seaton was drip.
>When I was a teenager, DuQuesne was my hero !

Thus it's no mystery why Bill Keith in _A Pilot's Guide
to Drexilthar Subsector_ made "Blackjack Duquesne" one
of the most legendary of reavers in Reavers' Deep.  ;)

JB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:54:08 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: re: Spaceport laws and such

>Robert Prior wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>"Deadly weapon" is a device primarily designed to inflict injury and/or
>death on someone.  Yes, there are gray areas, but I'm running a game here,
>not changing Canadian law (which, generally, I'm pretty content with).
><snip>
>A shotgun on a frontier settlement is a hunting tool. A shotgun in the
>middle of Regina's largest city is a weapon. An FGMP-15 is _always_ a
>weapon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Considering we're talking science fiction, let's change that "_always_"
>to "almost always". You know that somewhere, somehow, a frontier
>settlement has found a need for FGMP-15's as *hunting* tools. ;-)

I can live with that.

Another point is that IMTU the legal system is civil rather than common
law. Thus precident has less importance than it does in Anglo-Saxon
countries. (And yes, I suspect that my understanding of civil law is
flawed, but I haven't any lawyers playing in my campaign so it's good
enough for now.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:06:23 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

>>So are 98% of the crimes committed with handguns? (Just curious, no
>>Traveller connection I can think of, yet.)
>
>Actually, most of them are  still committed without firearms
>Even in the US, the number of  crimes involving knives is still far higher
>than those committed with firearms.

I meant firearm crimes (the original poster had mentioned that rifles
accounted for less than 2% of firearms used in crimes).

>And I suspect the number of crimes comitted without armament at all is far
>higher still, though I don't have the figures.

If you count fraud and stuff like that, almost certainly. (And I will _not_
start ranting about unethical business practices...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:10:58 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

>In mail you write:
>
>>> Great! Since I can't find my copy, could you post the words to the ine
>>> marine "march"? That's the one about "We've left blood on the..."
>>
>> We've left blood in the dirt of twenty-five worlds
>> We've built roads on a dozen more.
>> And all that we have at the end of our hitch
>> Buys a night with a second-class whore.
[snip]
>The above can be stuck into Traveller easily. Especially since the only
>"named" references are "the Senate", "the Fleet", "the Line Marines",
>and "Grand Admiral".

I suggest starting with the original version, written by Kipling.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:48:05 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: The Swordsmen of San Francisco

Arrrrr, Matey... draw thy cutlass and defend thine parking space for true!
also, machetes are considered tools rather than weapons in california.
ObTrav:  what a good way for PCs to get around gestapo-like police on a high
law world: machetes, chainsaws, sickles are all perfectly legitimate
tools...especially if the police have never seen them before and don't
understand to what illegitimate uses they can be put.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 20:56:28 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

At 06:10 PM 5/3/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>> Great! Since I can't find my copy, could you post the words to the ine
>>>> marine "march"? That's the one about "We've left blood on the..."
>>>
>>> We've left blood in the dirt of twenty-five worlds
>>> We've built roads on a dozen more.
>>> And all that we have at the end of our hitch
>>> Buys a night with a second-class whore.
>[snip]
>>The above can be stuck into Traveller easily. Especially since the only
>>"named" references are "the Senate", "the Fleet", "the Line Marines",
>>and "Grand Admiral".
>
>I suggest starting with the original version, written by Kipling.
>
What's the name of the Kipling Poem?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:14:15 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Bayonets

- ----------
> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Bayonets
> Date: Monday, 03 May, 1999 5:59 PM
> 
> At 05:24 PM 5/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >Ob Trav: "Super bayonets" to open up Battledress....:-)
> 
> A GURPS Monowire sword/knife/bayonet would be effective against BD that's
> as light as the stuff in canonical Traveller (not the abomination that is
> in Star Mercs... )  OTOH, Monowire isn't really canon AFAIK.

No. it isn't.  In fact, it's specifically forbidden(GT 109).  The one
loophole is hyperdense, which actually seems Traveller-compatible to me, at
least in a moderate space opera version.  (Superdense isn't enough denser
than steel to qualify as hyperdense in GURPS terms, but it's close enough
for a handwave, I think.)

Hyperdense melee weapons are a lot like monowire/vibro weapons in effect;
they have increased damage (+2d6) and a dramatic armor piercing ability
(divide by 10) for an increase of 50% in weight.  The net result is that a
hyperdense cutlass (probably just a core of hyperdense in a crystaliron
jacket) can penetrate battledress with some reliability when wielded by
someone likewise in BD.  A strong human can just barely wield one without
assistance, although they can't penetrate battledress without a powered
assist. 

IMTU, Marines use their hyperdense cutlasses in battledress for boarding
operations and the like. Very handy when you don't dare overpenetrate. 

They also occasionally use hyperdense needles in the gauss battle rifles
that are their main personal weapons (actually rifle plus electro-mag
grenade launcher).  IMTU, the FGMP-15 is a fire team support weapon, not
general issue.
 
Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 21:17:14 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Swordsmen of San Francisco

Chris Peers wrote:

> Arrrrr, Matey... draw thy cutlass and defend thine parking space for true!
> also, machetes are considered tools rather than weapons in california.
> ObTrav:  what a good way for PCs to get around gestapo-like police on a high
> law world: machetes, chainsaws, sickles are all perfectly legitimate
> tools...especially if the police have never seen them before and don't
> understand to what illegitimate uses they can be put.

Those are all way too obvious.  With the possible of the sickle.
I've never seen a sickle for sale anywhere in my life.

You've got to get more creative.  Like lawnmower blades!

Whats that line from the Johnny Mnemonic short story:
"When they're thinking high-tech, go low-tech."
Or something along those lines, when he had the sawed-off
shotgun in the bag.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 21:16:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Type D-1 Service Station 

> >Thing is, they don't start looking good til about 5000 tons.  A 1000 ton 
> >station is good for fueling up stuff like 200 ton Free Traders, mebbe a couple 
> >subbie liners, but that's about it.  The 10KT 'bulk frieghters' need 1000 tons 
> >of hydrogen *per jump number*.  I can see this station being used by the XBoat 
> >system at 1000 tons, though you'd probably want to tack on some modules to 
> >allow you to do some maintanance of the Xboats.
> 
>  i) scaling one up is pretty darned simple, although it will of course be
> even more cost-efficient; at TL F that 5000-tonner will cost ~MCr 270?

Under HG 2nd Edition, 270 MCr won't even buy you the *hull* at discount rates. 
 A 5KT hull is 500MCr, your best configuration is 60% of that.  Where are you 
guys coming up with your figures????????????????  And why don't they match up 
with figures from earlier editions?
 
>  ii) Oops! I just added four 1000-ton "fuel rocks" (1kt type 8 hulls, unfitted)
> to the cluster, for 3200 Dt of tankage at a further cost of MCr 2.88. Total 
> cost of the F-0 Service Station is now somewhat under MCr 59 for 3840 Dt/L-Hyd.

A 1Kt hull is 100 MCr by itself under HG 2nd Edition.  The *cheapest* configuration would be 60MCr.  So where does this 2.88 MCr figure come in?????????????????

And a 'type 8 hull' is an *asteroid* under HG.

With the kinds of numbers you're throwing around, I oughta be able to build a Tigress for under a billion.  What gives?????????

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:22:23 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

In a message dated 5/3/99 7:31:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
wombat@premier.net writes:

<< 
 Reminds me of something I did in a Traveller session a while back. 
 Assassins broke into my character's hotel room while she was in the
 shower.  She took out the first one with...her squeeze bottle of
 shampoo, right in the eyes.  Grabbed his SMG, and held off the other
 assassins until help arrived.
  >>

	Ten or fifteen years ago I GM'ed a bunch of pirates who, on liberty, 
busted into a nursing home "for laughs"  one ended up having to fight off a 
police patrol using a pole used to hold up I.V. bags.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 21:27:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >Funny, I've been *assured* an Armoured Beachball From Hell can carve the 
> >testicles off a fly at 1.48 million klicks on a stationary target (see my late 
> ...
> >Can somebody please explain this to me?

You missed that thread???????????????  Funny, I seem to recall you were active 
in it.
 
>   Simple - an Armoured Beachball From Hell can't make you read the post:
> ">>>Not if you're going after point of origin. Who cares where outbound
> ships are 
> >>>going if you whack out the outbound fuel point?  Once they're there in the 
> >>>system, they aren't going anywhere to tell people *you're* there.
> ...
> >> No, but the picket ships sitting quietly in the system will"

Only if they have internal jump fuel tankage.  If they're dependent on the 
station, they're stuck.
 
>   Besides, I think the ISPCA banned the fly emasculation maneuver...
> 
> ...
> >I was using numbers by the book, in a canonical fashion, not using wishful 
> >thinking.  Under HG rules, you *NEED* that bridge and a high powered computer, 
> >and you *ALSO* need at *LEAST* a Power Plant-1 to power the specified 150 beam 
> >lasers in 50 turrets on that 5KT hull.  WRT the military disadvantages, the 
> >damned things are indefensible under *ANY* rules system I can see.  It's a 
> >sitting duck waiting to be broiled with a nice honey glaze.
> 
>   Sure, the 5kt fortress model was a bit deranged, but that's the designers
> problem, not mine :>  But an actual fuel station is clearly quite reasonable
> if built at a level appropriate to its siting. The fuel-rocks are actually
> quite reasonable, although it might be about time to have type 8 & 9 hulls
> pay for interior stowage space; KCr 1/Dt for interior fuel tankage and 0.5
> for cargo space are very low but that can't be helped so long as various
> other tankages list at KCr 1.

What set of rules are you using?  I have *NEVER* seen figures like you quote 
for ships *ANYWHERE*.  You just make them up, or are you using a new, improved 
set of rules nobody else has?  I'm using HG 2nd Edition, as I've stated 
countless times over the last year and a half, and *my* numbers don't get 
within a couple orders of magnitude of yours.
 
> ...
> >You're not looking at the whole picture.  You end up with *TWO* hulls, not
> *ONE*.  One's the ship.  The other is the fueling station.  Building one
> ship is cheaper than building a ship *and* the fueling station to let it
> jump.  And the fueling station is 
> 
>   I've argued the military vulnerability of these systems at length myself,
> so I'm not arguing that. However, "building one ship is cheaper than building
> a ship *and* the fueling station" sounds more like a credo than the result of
> analysis; a small station such as I outlined earlier would require something
> like KCr 100 in weekly business to make a profit, less if tweaked radically.

So why would every C, D, & E starport have one of these damned things?

Considering that under HG 2nd Ed, fuel tankage in a ship's hull is the same cost as cargo space, i.e., *free*, how can you then claim that a ship *and* a station cost the same as just the ship?  Your numbers don't jive.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:53:45 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Four Day Planet

Leonard, you said:

>Heck, Dig up a copy of H. Beam Piper's "Four Day Planet". Fenris, it's
>climate and lifeforms are well detailed.
>Would you believe a world much like earth except that it's days are so
>long that there are only 4 days a year?

I've recently started developing a sophont species that comes from just
such a planet. I'll have to see if I can track down a copy of Piper's book
somewhere.

My concept was that this species evolved on a world that was approaching
tidal-lock, but hadn't got there yet. Four rotations per orbit seems about
right for my purposes.

I want to give it an F-type sun, so that the day side of the world is too
hot for unprotected animals to survive for long, while the night side is
generally too cold. Thus, many of the life forms, including my sophonts,
have to travel *all the time* to stay near the terminator (there's no land
or ice near the poles to live on). In short, they're perpetual nomads. Of
course they've co-evolved with some domesticated herd species that they use
as riding mounts -- these mounts would be *very* large, with entire
households living on their backs. Perhaps these animals might also need to
be good endurance swimmers -- there should be points in their perpetual
round-the-world migration where they have to cross ocean straits between
continents.

I might also give the sophonts and animals the ability to
hibernate/estivate, perhaps in underground burrows, when they have no
choice but to remain in one place through the long "day" or "night".

Is this anything like Piper's conception?

(Original ideas are so hard to come by, these days...)

Best,

 + GMG +

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
           now in hardcover from Tor Books

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:01:46 -0700
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Bayonets

>In a message dated 5/3/99 12:09:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk writes:
>
><< Only when charging strong
> defensive positions do both sides tend to get into an actual melee, as
 >the defenders are unlikely to run or surrender until physically
 >beaten.  Solid walls are a great morale booster <g>
 >>>>
>
>That makes sense. I once read somewhere (don't remember...drat) that the only 
>real use for the bayonet (besides the reasons previous posters stated), is 
>for 1) crowd control and 2) for VERY close quarters work, like house 
>clearing, where someone could pop up suddenly after catching a soldier in the 
>middle of a magazine change. As a lot of the new bayonets are doing double 
>duty as fighting knives/multi tools, there is no extra weight for the soldier 
>to carry as he is already going to be issued some kind of tool...l. My 
>personal opinion is that it's a useful auxiliary as I have to carry a knife 
>anyway...

>Ob Trav: "Super bayonets" to open up Battledress....:-)

That's the logic behind the US Army's M9 Bayonet which with the sheath is
an insulated wire cutter and is thick enough that it can be used to pry
open the metal bands on mortar and artillery cases.  The indentations on
the blade back are for use as a saw in cutting open aircraft skins in an
emergency while not quite deep enough to count as a saw blade which could
get you in real trouble under the Geneva Convention unless you're an
engineer.  The problem is the most of the support troops still only have
the M7 which doesn't last long when you try to open cases with it.  I guess
they will still have to buy K-bars and Gerbers on their own

Jim Brewer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:09:50 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : solid hydrogen fuel

Bruce Macintosh wrote :-
>Nonetheless, there were semiserious proposals to use "slush hydrogen" >as a fuel for the long-abandoned X-30 National Aerospace Plane, to >reduce fuel volume by perhaps 10%.

A recent NASA Technical Memorandum (97-206228) states :-
> Systems analyses performed for other
> high density hydrogen vehicles have shown that the reductions of the GLOW for increased density hydrogen are
> very significant. In cases where another high density hydrogen, slush hydrogen was used, the density increased by
> 16 percent, the GLOW was reduced by 10.2 percent, or 102 000 lbm. For airbreathing vehicles, such as the National
> Aerospace Plane (NASP), the estimated reduction in GLOW for slush hydrogen was from 20 to 50 percent. Thus,
> a gelled hydrogen with a 10 percent density increase may deliver a significant fraction of these airbreathing vehicle
> GLOW reductions and other subsystem mass savings.
(GLOW = Gross Lift-Off Weight)

The optimal weight fraction of gellant (methane, ethane) is 10% of the
total propellant mass.

Metallic hydrogen is another alternative, but *mass* production would
require similar feats to the manufacture of superdense materials, IMHO.

I agree with you wholeheartedly Bruce about using mass rather than
volume to compute jump fuel requirements. Now I have to sit down and run
some numbers....

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:14:05 -0700
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

> From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>

> As a point of interest, In Queensland (again, I cannot speak for the rest of
> Australia), if you suffer a home intrusion and fear for your life, by law,
> you can only meet the assailant with *equal* force... ie:  If the villain
> has a stick, you can defend yourself with a stick (cricket/baseball bat),
> but cannot defend yourself with a knife or a gun!  If the villain has a
> knife, you cannot defend yourself with a gun!!  So it is better not to have
> a gun in the house under those circumstances it seems, as the majority of
> home intrusions are done with knives, syringes, and "clubs"
> As for security staff (night watchmen and the like), if they shoot a
> criminal, I am assured that if the baddie doesn't have powder burn marks in
> his chest ("He was coming straight at me!!"), you better have a good lawyer

In California a Proposition changed the law so that any person breaking
into a home is considered to be  automatically attempting "grievous bodily
harm" and can be responded to with deadly force.  A few years ago a man
shot someone climbing into his daughters window and while he spent the
night in jail he was released and no charges where filed.  However outside
the home or closed business you must still prove that a "reasonable man"
would have felt that his or anothers life was in danger.  A number of
people that have shot at car thieves and prowlers have ended up in big
trouble. 

Jim Brewer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:49:46 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

James Brewer wrote:

> In California a Proposition changed the law so that any person breaking
> into a home is considered to be  automatically attempting "grievous bodily
> harm" and can be responded to with deadly force.  A few years ago a man
> shot someone climbing into his daughters window and while he spent the
> night in jail he was released and no charges where filed.  However outside
> the home or closed business you must still prove that a "reasonable man"
> would have felt that his or anothers life was in danger.  A number of
> people that have shot at car thieves and prowlers have ended up in big
> trouble.

I forgot that. In nevada Shot while trespassing is a hazard that criminals
face.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:55:13 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

>No, it seems that you should have two guns in your home -- one for the
>dead intruder, and one for yourself.  Bear in mind that I'm not giving
>any legal advice here, but it is the way some Traveller characters I
>(and others ) have played would approach this particular problem.
>
>> As for security staff (night watchmen and the like), if they shoot a
>> criminal, I am assured that if the baddie doesn't have powder burn marks in
>> his chest ("He was coming straight at me!!"), you better have a good lawyer
>
>This shouldn't be a problem, either.  Once he's down, you can put those
>powder burns wherever you need them.  (See disclaimer above.)
>
>--Glenn

Actually, it's pretty easy to check that sort of thing with a good forensic
exam. Ie. killing wound vs one inflicted later, angle of shot, powder
burns, and so forth.  At higher tech this will be a _lot_ harder to fake.
I had great fun playing a TL15 forensic specialist once, and even with good
old TL8 tech I was doing a nice job of seeing through the baddies' plots.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:05:10 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

>> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>
>> Sorry, just been rereading Guns of the South, and the name popped into my
>> head. Well, that and the fact that I don't know the names of any other
>> automatic weapons except the M-16.
>
>How do you referee if you can't analogize the NPCs' weapons for your
>PCs?

I'd look them up if necessary, or go by generic names. "He's carrying a
surplus Coalition autoshotgun."

My players tend to stop after they hear "it looks like an automatic
weapon", so I've never _needed_ to know the weapons of the world by heart.

When I was running a Twilight 2000 game for my kids, I handled the combat
by statistics, and let them worry about weapons. I just copied out the
weapon cards from the supplement and went by what was on the card.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #556
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 557



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav 
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav 
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav 
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Bayonets
Re: Four Day Planet
T4 Ship Design Question
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Law of Land Warfare
Re: Type D-1 Service Station
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: T4 stuff
Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...
Re: Fleets
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:56:09 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav 

> > In California a Proposition changed the law so that any person breaking
> > into a home is considered to be  automatically attempting "grievous bodily
> > harm" and can be responded to with deadly force.  A few years ago a man
> > shot someone climbing into his daughters window and while he spent the
> > night in jail he was released and no charges where filed.  However outside
> > the home or closed business you must still prove that a "reasonable man"
> > would have felt that his or anothers life was in danger.  A number of
> > people that have shot at car thieves and prowlers have ended up in big
> > trouble.
> 
> I forgot that. In nevada Shot while trespassing is a hazard that criminals
> face.

In Ohio, shooting an armed intruder is a violation of their Constitutional rights.  Go figger.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 20:11:54 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>

> >This shouldn't be a problem, either.  Once he's down, you can put those
> >powder burns wherever you need them.  (See disclaimer above.)
> >
> >--Glenn
> 
> Actually, it's pretty easy to check that sort of thing with a good forensic
> exam. Ie. killing wound vs one inflicted later, angle of shot, powder
> burns, and so forth.  At higher tech this will be a _lot_ harder to fake.
> I had great fun playing a TL15 forensic specialist once, and even with good
> old TL8 tech I was doing a nice job of seeing through the baddies' plots.

That's true, but what's the motivation of the forensic specialist and
police detective and prosecuting attorney in the homeowner case?  It
may  be to congratulate the homeowner and not investigate too deeply.  A
PC breaking into an NPC's home should not expect much legal protection,
as a practical matter.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:15:32 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

In a message dated 5/3/99 7:50:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
wmacdude@concentric.net writes:

<< I forgot that. In nevada Shot while trespassing is a hazard that criminals
 face. >>

yeah; but why did my CCW class in LV try and scare the bejeez out of me about 
consequences. I know what immenient deadly force is, but they tried to hint 
that I would get raked over the coals anyway. I guess safer than sorry...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:22:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> writes:

> Schmeissers and Thompsons and Heckler and Kochs
> Lugers and Rugers and quick-shooting Glocks
> Uzis and Ingrams and modern Sterlings
> These are a few of my favorite things.
> 
> (Sorry:  Luger, Ruger, and Glock only make semi-automatic pistols, but I
> couldn't find anything to rhyme with FN or Mac-10 or Browning Automatic
> Rifle or M-14.)

Um... Glenn?  Glock makes the Glock 18, a select-fire 9mm machine pistol,
and Ruger makes the AC-556, which is a select-fire version of the Mini-14.
Luger is responsible for numerous WW II vintage SMGs, although the famous
Luger P-08 (the handgun that everyone automatically thinks of when they
hear the name "Luger") was available in select-fire only in very limited
quantities.

   "Ma Deuces and Maxims and hefty old Bren guns,
    weigh a bunch more than Uzis and Mac-10 guns,
    M-60s and G-3s and Stoners on slings,
    full-autos are some of my favorite things!"

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:17:57 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav 

In a message dated 5/3/99 8:03:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jamstar@earthlink.net writes:

<< In Ohio, shooting an armed intruder is a violation of their Constitutional 
rights.  Go figger.
  >>

they must have some REAL zelots in the OH U.S. attorney's office..

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:28:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav 

> In a message dated 5/3/99 8:03:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> jamstar@earthlink.net writes:
> 
> << In Ohio, shooting an armed intruder is a violation of their Constitutional 
> rights.  Go figger.
>   >>
> 
> they must have some REAL zelots in the OH U.S. attorney's office..

No, they're all in the public defender's office.  The Atty General's office is 
too busy busting telemarketting scams to care.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:48:42 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

Dear Folks -

Sethkimmel asked:
>Is/was there an anti GDW bias in Australia?

Not that I have noticed. It's just that:

a.   Roleplaying is a niche market at the best of times.
b.   Systems such as Traveller lose out to either "The" system (AD&D) or
one of the newer systems such as White Wolf's stuff - this was at the time
when Trav was considered an "old" system but not yet old enough to be a
"Classic". ;-).
c.   A lot of people go for spooky/weird backgrounds, and Traveller is too
tame for them.
d.   Many people prefer freeforms, and underpin them with atmospheric
systems (eg. Cthulu) or systemless structures (although I _have_
participated in a Trav freeform!)

Of course, it didn't help at all that MT suffered from an "errata storm".
Trav is also seen as being unstable - "what, ANOTHER new edition? A new
combat system? I have to learn TWO new incompatable design sequences? Don't
tell me, this one also doesn't mesh with any of the previously published
stuff, right?"

The reason AD&D Second Edition was received so well is that it was mostly
just about fixing up people's perceived problems with 1st Edit. They
listened hard to their customers (Rule of Business #2) and essentially gave
them what they wanted. And they gave them different backgrounds with the
same rule set (yeah, I know this is what TNE was about, but for most people
it was a *new* rule set).

In fact, I'm of the opinion that MT (with the errata applied) is actually
the best system, as it is compatable with much of CT, and is integrated at
all combat scales.

OTOH, if you only got aboard with TNE, then maybe you should stay with it.
It is also reasonably integrated, it's just that the combat scales - weapon
Pen and damage, for instance - have been widened hugely.

I mean, all that CT needed was a task system, a ship combat system where
the PC's had an input (unlike HG, which is a fantastic but emotionally
detached system), and  - for my money - a better personal combat system.
You *nearly* get all of this with MT.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:48:29 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale

In a message dated 99-05-03 19:08:49 EDT, you write:

<< > I am putting my entire Traveller collection up for sale! Plus, a handful 
of
 > Twighlight: 2000 titles, Combined Arms miniatures rules, Paranoia and 
 > Werewolf: The Apocalypse. After 15 years of playing Traveller, I have no
 > more time to play RPGs, and nobody to play them with with :-(   >>

Do you have a copy of CSC, FF&S, or Starships(all for T4)?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 00:21:02 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

In a message dated 99-05-03 23:54:21 EDT, you write:

<< I mean, all that CT needed was a task system, a ship combat system where
 the PC's had an input (unlike HG, which is a fantastic but emotionally
 detached system), and  - for my money - a better personal combat system.
 You *nearly* get all of this with MT. >>

How does T4 stack up?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 00:32:21 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bayonets

In a message dated 99-05-03 22:03:58 EDT, you write:

<< That's the logic behind the US Army's M9 Bayonet which with the sheath is
 an insulated wire cutter and is thick enough that it can be used to pry
 open the metal bands on mortar and artillery cases.  The indentations on
 the blade back are for use as a saw in cutting open aircraft skins in an
 emergency while not quite deep enough to count as a saw blade which could
 get you in real trouble under the Geneva Convention unless you're an
 engineer.  The problem is the most of the support troops still only have
 the M7 which doesn't last long when you try to open cases with it.  I guess
 they will still have to buy K-bars and Gerbers on their own >>

Were can I find a copy of the Geneva Convention?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 00:35:09 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

In a message dated 99-05-03 22:02:35 EDT, you write:

<< I've recently started developing a sophont species that comes from just
 such a planet. I'll have to see if I can track down a copy of Piper's book
 somewhere.
 
 My concept was that this species evolved on a world that was approaching
 tidal-lock, but hadn't got there yet. Four rotations per orbit seems about
 right for my purposes.
 
 I want to give it an F-type sun, so that the day side of the world is too
 hot for unprotected animals to survive for long, while the night side is
 generally too cold. Thus, many of the life forms, including my sophonts,
 have to travel *all the time* to stay near the terminator (there's no land
 or ice near the poles to live on). In short, they're perpetual nomads. Of
 course they've co-evolved with some domesticated herd species that they use
 as riding mounts -- these mounts would be *very* large, with entire
 households living on their backs. Perhaps these animals might also need to
 be good endurance swimmers -- there should be points in their perpetual
 round-the-world migration where they have to cross ocean straits between
 continents.
 
 I might also give the sophonts and animals the ability to
 hibernate/estivate, perhaps in underground burrows, when they have no
 choice but to remain in one place through the long "day" or "night".
 
 Is this anything like Piper's conception? >>

What TL is the race? if its ~8 or more they could build under water colonies 
(an I idea that I hope Traveller covers well)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:37:18 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: T4 Ship Design Question

In the TML's collective opinion, is there any use for:

1.  Fractional (less than 1G) contra-grav?  If so, what effect would,
say, .5G c-g have on ship operations for a ship on the ground?

2.  Contra-grav at all for ships (streamlined, not airframe) with 4G or
more of thruster drive?

Both cases above are based on a standard 1G world.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:55:24 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-03 23:54:21 EDT, you write:
> 
> << I mean, all that CT needed was a task system, a ship combat system where
>  the PC's had an input (unlike HG, which is a fantastic but emotionally
>  detached system), and  - for my money - a better personal combat system.
>  You *nearly* get all of this with MT. >>
> 
> How does T4 stack up?
> -Stephen

IMHO:

T4 has a good task system (if you're willing to deal with half-dice [I
am]), an adequate personal combat system (this ties in with having a
good task system), and a piss-poor starship combat system (this may have
been rectified in the future, had Imperium Games not gone belly-up,
but...).  Bruce Alan Macintosh's Military Combat System fills in the gap
for starship combat, if one is willing to give credit for systems not
published by the game publishers.  FF&Sv2 is an excellent design system
for the gearheads among us.  I would ignore most of the background and
adventure material published by Imperium Games for T4 (however, I hear
that the BITS material for T4 is first-rate).  Imperium Games tended to
commission works by writers who paid little or no attention to
pre-existing canon.  :-P

To sum up:

Good game system for personal-level interactions; needs a grafted-on
ship combat system; excellent equipment design system; lousy background
support (with a couple of exceptions [such as _Pocket Empires_ and
_Imperial Squadrons_]). 

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 21:59:30 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> yeah; but why did my CCW class in LV try and scare the bejeez out of me about
> consequences. I know what immenient deadly force is, but they tried to hint
> that I would get raked over the coals anyway. I guess safer than sorry...

 Diday happen to take a redneck count in that class? Quite a few in northern NV
in those classes had real low gene counts.


- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 00:14:15 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Law of Land Warfare

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> Were can I find a copy of the Geneva Convention?
> -Stephen

Try these two URLs:

http://www.law.wits.ac.za/humanrts/instree/auoy.htm

(several of the Geneva Conventions);

http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~david/ihl/treaties/ihlhaguelaw.htm

(pertains to the Hague Conventions pertaining to the Law of Land
Warfare)

You can also try the following URL to get to US Army publications on the
subject:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/

(Search for Field Manuals, in the Judge Advocate General section, for FM
27-10, _The Law fo Land Warfare_)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:18:04 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Type D-1 Service Station

...
>Under HG 2nd Edition, 270 MCr won't even buy you the *hull* at discount rates. 
> A 5KT hull is 500MCr, your best configuration is 60% of that.  Where are you 
>guys coming up with your figures????????????????  And why don't they match up 
>with figures from earlier editions?
 
  There's more than one way to skin a Gratheudom :>  (which brings to mind
the thread on hunting with FGMP's...)

>>  ii) Oops! I just added four 1000-ton "fuel rocks" (1kt type 8 hulls,
unfitted)
>> to the cluster, for 3200 Dt of tankage at a further cost of MCr 2.88. Total 
>> cost of the F-0 Service Station is now somewhat under MCr 59 for 3840
Dt/L-Hyd.
>
>A 1Kt hull is 100 MCr by itself under HG 2nd Edition.  The *cheapest*
configuration would be 60MCr.  So where does this 2.88 MCr figure come
in?????????????????
>
>And a 'type 8 hull' is an *asteroid* under HG.

  Sort of, no, p. 22, and "Yes". :>

  You see, when I referred to "fuel rocks" as 1kt type 8 hulls I meant just
that.
If economic practicality is the issue I felt that building as cheap a station as
possible would be a good starting point. Asteroids seem OK, but I can see real
hassles with building from brick, wood, or straw.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 01:26:44 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

In a message dated 99-05-04 00:59:33 EDT, you write:

<< Good game system for personal-level interactions; needs a grafted-on
 ship combat system; excellent equipment design system; lousy background
 support (with a couple of exceptions [such as _Pocket Empires_ and
 _Imperial Squadrons_]). 
  >>

Okay, well it seems like I made a good call, I have found a good (I think) 
RPG space combat system and a good non RPG space combat system (for 
Traveller) so that should not be a problem, as the campain that I'm planing 
on running (assuming that I can find the players would be on of three things: 
The Out (as posted a wile ago), Araque's Sands (a TL-9 slow boat colony ships 
gets trown across the galaxy, two hundred people fight for survile[think 
Outpost/Outpost 2), or [Unnamed] a campain set on a water world (think Sea 
Quest type setting), so background material should not be a problem.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 01:58:26 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, May 03, 1999 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...


>How do you referee if you can't analogize the NPCs' weapons for your
>PCs?  


It's easy. Generic terminology works just fine.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:00:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

...
>> >Funny, I've been *assured* an Armoured Beachball From Hell can carve the 
>> >testicles off a fly at 1.48 million klicks on a stationary target (see
my late 
>> ...
>> >Can somebody please explain this to me?
>
>You missed that thread???????????????  Funny, I seem to recall you were active 
>in it.

  Very true. However, you are again reading your original text, not mine :)

...
>> >>>going if you whack out the outbound fuel point?  Once they're there in
the 
>> >>>system, they aren't going anywhere to tell people *you're* there.
>> ...
>> >> No, but the picket ships sitting quietly in the system will"
>
>Only if they have internal jump fuel tankage.  If they're dependent on the 
>station, they're stuck.

  Umm, let's assume that a security/lookout vessel from a completely separate
agency operating completely independently of any commercial facilities that
may or may not be in a given system just might not be designed to require the
services of said station?

...
>>   Sure, the 5kt fortress model was a bit deranged, but that's the designers
...
>What set of rules are you using?  I have *NEVER* seen figures like you quote 
>for ships *ANYWHERE*.  You just make them up, or are you using a new, improved 
>set of rules nobody else has?  I'm using HG 2nd Edition, as I've stated 
>countless times over the last year and a half, and *my* numbers don't get 
>within a couple orders of magnitude of yours.

  HG2, p. 22, paragraph immediately before "Drives". See also p. 23, table
"Configuration". I'm just using HG2 the way it was meant to be - ruthlessly :)
Seriously, though, this sort of thing doesn't work worth a darn for warships
or Jump-capable craft (let alone both) - it simply runs too far into your
available volume to allow needed performance levels.

...
>> analysis; a small station such as I outlined earlier would require something
>> like KCr 100 in weekly business to make a profit, less if tweaked radically.
>
>So why would every C, D, & E starport have one of these damned things?

  You mean "why wouldn't"? If so, then the answer is that a full thinking
through of the concepts involved under CT rules (and remember, CT does rule*)
will mean that there likely are such stations, whether open to walk-in business
or not, at those systems that will support them.

>Considering that under HG 2nd Ed, fuel tankage in a ship's hull is the same
cost as cargo space, i.e., *free*, how can you then claim that a ship *and*
a station cost the same as just the ship?  Your numbers don't jive.

  "My" numbers come from HG2; it is, however, important to politely ask the
rules to provide the answer that you're looking for :) And actually in the
case described the combination can easily cost substantially _less_.

        Steven Hudson

* The CT Creed - "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its'
Product"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:19:00 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 stuff

In a message dated 99-05-02 17:07:39 EDT, you write:

<< Tribe in the Arctic. A typo on your part, a prediliction for bad jokes on
 mine... >>

Hmm, well, I gues you NEVER know what a typo will get you:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:32:12 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Training in Jump (was Re: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia) 

In a message dated 99-05-01 12:26:44 EDT, you write:

<< Nope. Traditionally only the team leader dies in cryo  ;)
 
 Brannon (trying to keep his sci-fi RPG mailing lists straight) >>

In the SSDS Beta is says that people in low Berths have a chance of dieing, 
how is this simmed?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:37:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...

In a message dated 99-05-01 12:22:12 EDT, you write:

<< Unless such things have become a 'patriotic duty' and these people are
 seen as serving a vital function by keeping the men and women of the
 Imperial Services satisfied in their duties. Could even be a sort of
 Auxilary Corps to the regular services (registered and screened) which
 would help prevent nefarious agents of foreign powers from gaining access
 to Imperial Officers/Crew through the use of seduction.
 
 Depends on how the culture of the Imperium (not of any one world) views
 sex. I would go for this more progressive model, and say the Imperium
 recognizes that people want/need to have satisfying sexual relations in
 their lives, and will function at a lower level after some period of being
 denied this. Of course it does mean you have to make sure you have the
 right mix of races on your brothel ship for visiting a particular fleet...
 
 Brannon >>

What about some sort of holodeck equivelnt technology, could also be used for 
training missions.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:38:09 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleets

In a message dated 99-05-01 16:14:43 EDT, you write:

<< 3.  Localization of forces. Even if the Imperium (in wartime)
 	wants to move your fleet to the nearby system where 
 	THEY want it, the lack of jump drives may make it 
 	difficult for them. >>

Maybe that is why the do have them, so that the Impies can move them?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:48:21 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

In a message dated 99-05-02 00:57:12 EDT, you write:

<< I expect the upcoming Scout Book will provide us with more info on what's
 tools are most useful for Scout's to use.

xxxx
What Scout Book?
xxxx
 
 ------------------------------
 
 Alvin Plummer
 
 Good government never depends upon laws, but upon the personal qualities of
 those who govern.  The machinery of government is always subordinate to the
 will of those who administer that machinery.  The most important element of
 government, therefore, is the method of choosing leaders.
                 -- Frank Herbert, "Children of Dune" >>

Yes! someone else reads Dune!
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 02:45:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >> >>>going if you whack out the outbound fuel point?  Once they're there in
> the 
> >> >>>system, they aren't going anywhere to tell people *you're* there.
> >> ...
> >> >> No, but the picket ships sitting quietly in the system will"
> >
> >Only if they have internal jump fuel tankage.  If they're dependent on the 
> >station, they're stuck.
> 
>   Umm, let's assume that a security/lookout vessel from a completely separate
> agency operating completely independently of any commercial facilities that
> may or may not be in a given system just might not be designed to require the
> services of said station?

So how is a third party ship going to refuel from a fueling point that's been 
destroyed?
 
> ...
> >>   Sure, the 5kt fortress model was a bit deranged, but that's the designers
> ...
> >What set of rules are you using?  I have *NEVER* seen figures like you quote 
> >for ships *ANYWHERE*.  You just make them up, or are you using a new, improved 
> >set of rules nobody else has?  I'm using HG 2nd Edition, as I've stated 
> >countless times over the last year and a half, and *my* numbers don't get 
> >within a couple orders of magnitude of yours.
> 
>   HG2, p. 22, paragraph immediately before "Drives". See also p. 23, table
> "Configuration". I'm just using HG2 the way it was meant to be - ruthlessly :)
> Seriously, though, this sort of thing doesn't work worth a darn for warships
> or Jump-capable craft (let alone both) - it simply runs too far into your
> available volume to allow needed performance levels.

Which is why I ignore them.  I don't see rocks as being particularly tenable 
even though they're dirt cheap.

> >> analysis; a small station such as I outlined earlier would require something
> >> like KCr 100 in weekly business to make a profit, less if tweaked radically.
> >
> >So why would every C, D, & E starport have one of these damned things?
> 
>   You mean "why wouldn't"? If so, then the answer is that a full thinking
> through of the concepts involved under CT rules (and remember, CT does rule*)
> will mean that there likely are such stations, whether open to walk-in business
> or not, at those systems that will support them.

One would presume that these stations would exist to provide *refined* fuel.  
Class C or worse starports don't have refined fuel by their very definition.  
I fall back on my earlier 'rule of thumb' in that if there's no refined fuel 
availiable, there are no fueling stations present in the system.
 
> >Considering that under HG 2nd Ed, fuel tankage in a ship's hull is the same
> cost as cargo space, i.e., *free*, how can you then claim that a ship *and*
> a station cost the same as just the ship?  Your numbers don't jive.
> 
>   "My" numbers come from HG2; it is, however, important to politely ask the
> rules to provide the answer that you're looking for :) And actually in the
> case described the combination can easily cost substantially _less_.

Heh.  You still have to pay for digging out the station.  And since there's no difference in price between cargo space and fuel tankage, the ship still costs the same.  So you *still* spend more on the entire system than you would on just the ship and you get out from under the drawbacks.

Keven
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #557
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 558



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Populashion Modeling
Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe 
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Designing Buildings
Re: Spaceport laws and such
Re: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale
Re: Spaceport laws and such
PCs' favorite things
The Merits of Different Traveller Versions [was Re: Traveller Fanzines...]
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Fleet Combat
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: starship prices...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:50:41 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Populashion Modeling

Hi,
does anyone know a good system for modeling the populashion of a small group, 
detailed enuff so that you could come back in ten years and you would see the 
grow of the populashion as indivuels and how the modife the populashion, 
carring capacity in importaned.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:53:14 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)

> Virus, whether the unlikely official version or my much stripped down
> version, will go thru those primitive computers like candy.

<flicking lighter/>
Are you trolling?  

</flicking lighter>

:-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:53:12 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> >You have to be joking.  Anything the megacorps want, they can easily get 
from 
> >a free trader scale operation, either absorbing them or simply 
undercutting 
> >them through value.  Picking up their crumbs (or hte little morsels they 
just 
> >don't think is worth the trouble) is hardly the same as "competing"
> 
>   I assume that what's meant is that having your price level determined by
> comparison to the big players high-efficiency operations _is_ competition.

Yeah, possibly.  I'm probably more focused on direct competition w/ the 
megacorps (though he specificially mentioned indirect).  It's just the only 
things left to Free Traders are either things the megacorps don't want or 
don't consider worth the trouble to secure (the "crumbs").  I can understand 
and appreciate the comments that Far Trader is meant for developing shipping 
companies, too.  I just don't expect the megacorps would be kind once any 
kind of company became anything like a threat (either through acquisition, 
hostile takeover, etc, much less trade war).

> >Well, if we're talking about megacorps (which we are), it doesn't likely 
> >apply.  A megacorp probably loans internally, amongst subsidiaries and 
> >subdivisions.  They are their own bankers.
> ...
> 
>   This is workable at best only in the short term; if the megacorp is fully
> self-financed then subsidizing ops that lose money with no hope of long-term
> improvement means cutting investment to genuinely profitable projects or at
> the least failing to provide capital to outsiders at market interest rates.

Well from my understanding, they would basically be independant, though it's 
possible favorable terms would be granted.  There's certainly 
decentrailization and a deliberate method to have even subsidiaries and 
subdivisions behave as if seperate, for the bottom line, if nothing else.  
Plus, it's interesting how all the megacorps are so intertwined.  Anyone 
wanna hazard a guess on the percentage of Imperial business that was through 
the megacorps?  It smacks of oligarchy, especially when you see the imperial 
nobility and Emperor's mits everywhere, too (especially w/ Zirunkarish).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:53:15 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >A *BILLION* credits or so is not relatively cheap compared to a 30 
*MILLION*
> >credit starship.  And if it gets whacked out, you get to spend *ANOHTER*
> >billion credits to replace it.  So where's your 'economy'?
> 
>   You're radically over-estimating the cost of a bare-bones installations
> (which is, after all, what's needed). OTOH, I suspect that you're much
> closer wrt the military disadvantages of such a system.

IMO that's very debatable (not that I think "jump stations" are anything but 
a strawman, really).   They would be very vulnerable.  The one thing we 
*know* is that fixed installations are undefendable and if anything like a 
small percentage of the trade we see in Far Trader runs through such a fixed 
installation, it would have a gigantic bullseye on it during the Frontier 
Wars, which means there will be defenses, which means crew, which means 
power, quarters, etc etc and the thing gets even bigger and more expensive 
(and vulnerable).  A vicious circle, really.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:53:17 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> >On a Free Trader's scale, noone has addressed what would happen on an 
> >unprofitable, much less diasterous run where new drop tankage can't be 
> >afforded, much less a misjump to a low tech world.
> 
>   A free trader unable to afford replacement tanks at a port is in the
> same position as an airliner of a small company whose credit is no good
> with the company supplying avgas - that is, they're already broke...
 
Isn't that the point of designs like the Beowulf?  And the Free Trader 
concept, in general?  
 
>  OTOH, misjumps can be a real pain for anyone - especially those ones to
> deep space.

You got that right.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:53:10 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe 

> Product idea!
> 
> "Globes" made of some sort of plastic with a surface similar to
> drafting film (sort of a matte finish that will take ink and pencil
> easily, but can also be erased and reused). Make them in 10 sizes for
> size 1 thru size 10 worlds. 

Wow.  That's a good idea.  *I'd* buy bunches of them.  I wonder if that's 
economical for someone like SJG to do (or maybe whoever will/can put out T5).

> The ref could transfer maps of commonly visited worlds to them, and
> otherwise just use them for size references.

Transfer how?  That's one of the hardest part bout handdrawn, as opposed to 
computerized mapping tools.  Drawing by hand, it's sometimes hard to do 
things *exactly* the same.  Maybe have a software type tool attached (Jim Vs 
Galactic would be an awesome starting point), then the "zoom" forms for the 
IISS and RCES mapping forms, etc. 

I really like your idea, though!

> Which reminds me. After seeing a TV item about a scale model of the
> solar system in some town in the midwest, I got to thinking about
> trying to draw up a description of Traveller solar systems in such
> terms. 
> 
> For example:
<snip>

TNE's Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider boht included descriptions of the 
solar system and movements for use in representing them in a game.  It was a 
small table with the planets of the solar system, diameter, 1G threshold, and 
velocity in 30,000km hexes.  Earth is 0.43, 1G at the surface, velocity at 
1.787 hexes per 30 minute turn.  Jupiter is 4.76 hexes across (I actually 
made one out of cardboard cut to the BL/BR hexmap along w/ a printout from an 
image file I used to have handy), with a 1.4 hex 1G threshold and moves at 
0.78 hexes per turn.  The sun, for example, would be 46.5 hexes across, has a 
1G threshold out to 99.5 hexes, 2G to 63.5, 3G to 47.6, etc etc.  Was very 
interesting to put into perspective.  I've always heard the figures, but it 
doesn't computer till you see something taking up 5 hexes across on the map 
(and the BL/BR hex maps have big hexes).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 03:00:55 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

In a message dated 99-05-02 16:37:20 EDT, you write:

<< You've also overlooked the Neural Activity Sensor from one of the Scout
 books. It ought to be pretty revealing. >>

Realy?  How much detail do you get?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 03:01:56 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Designing Buildings

Hi,
Is there a set of rules to build factories and what not (othe buildings) for 
T4?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 03:03:35 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such

In a message dated 99-05-02 17:25:25 EDT, you write:

<< FGMP-15 >>

What is the above? It sounds like a FBG what are the other details?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 03:06:42 EDT
From: NordskAM@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale

All I had was the basic rules for T4, but it is already spoken for now. 
Sorry...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 03:12:39 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such

In a message dated 99-05-02 17:43:36 EDT, you write:

<< OTOH, such worlds might make excellent safari worlds, for those with the
 wherewithal (and cojones) to hunt prey of this type. >>

It might be constiered a right of passed to get one.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 00:07:30 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: PCs' favorite things

> From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
> Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
> 
> Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> writes:
> 
> > (Sorry:  Luger, Ruger, and Glock only make semi-automatic pistols, but I
 
> Um... Glenn?  Glock makes the Glock 18, a select-fire 9mm machine pistol,
> and Ruger makes the AC-556, which is a select-fire version of the Mini-14.

Thanks -- I stand corrected.

"Schmeissers and Thompsons and Heckler and Kochs
Lugers and Rugers and quick-shooting Glocks
Uzis and Ingrams and modern Sterlings
These are a few of my favorite things.
 
"Ma Deuces and Maxims and hefty old Bren guns,
weigh a bunch more than Uzis and Mac-10 guns,
M-60s and G-3s and Stoners on slings,
full-autos are some of my favorite things!

This could turn into a filk, I'm afraid.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:22:03 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions [was Re: Traveller Fanzines...]

Dear Folks -

Black ICE replied to SRKOALA thus:
>Good game system for personal-level interactions; needs a grafted-on
>ship combat system; excellent equipment design system; lousy background
>support (with a couple of exceptions [such as _Pocket Empires_ and
>_Imperial Squadrons_]).

You forgot "reasonable vehicle design system", but "the three levels of
combat do not mesh well".

You can use Kenneth Bearden's KBv2 to get rid of the half dice, if you
like. This and TNE are probably two of the best task systems for Trav - at
least you get to use your entire stat. In MY, a stat of 14 gave you the
same bonus as a stat of 10  - why bother? But using KBv2, you use all of
it.

So: tack on a few things, and the system becomes much more playable! - but
I've never found a workable solution for the differing combat scales.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 03:42:25 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

> >It's a matter of cost and scale and mission.  The Rampart cannot hold
> >*ground* while a Trepida (and even better, an Astrin) can.  A rampart (much
> >less a Close Escort or Destroyer) is 1/3 more expensive than a Trepida (7
> >times the price of an Astrin), while a CE is almost 15 times as expensive 
as
> >a Trepida and 50 times as expensive as an Astrin.  A DD is about 100 times 
as
> >expensive as the Trepida and an Astrin a helluva lot more.  ;-)
> 
> The point is not to compare the Trepida or Astrin to the Rampart, but to
> the Air/Raft.

That is precisely the point, because that's what it's going to come down to 
eventually.  The Rampart is awesome support for people on the ground, or for 
blowing up things from orbit.  But acting like an AV-8b Harrier is not what 
it's designed for.  The Rampart can't hold any ground *at all*.  People don't 
surrender to space fighters in orbit (or even jet fighters in teh 
atmosphere), but to people on the ground w/ them, w/ a weapon system in their 
direction.
 
> If any armored or unarmored vehicle can be killed from orbit, there is no
> need for heavy weapons or heavy armor on vehicles.  Only enough armor to
> resist fire from foot (armored) infantry is needed.

Because nothing is ever a sure bet.  There *could* be some determined 
resistance in orbit, that puts ortillery's weapons somewhere else.  In an 
ideal situation, you don't need grav vehicles at all.  *UNTIL* you want to do 
more than blow things up and actually claim the turf you've been bombing for. 
 Against even a low tech guerilla action, your troops will survive if they 
have good armored vehicles (to say nothing of tactics and training, which are 
more important, though there will be causalties in any case).  Hmm... sounds 
like i'm talking bout hte situation in the Balkans, no?  ;-)

Against the other polities (Zhos, Solomani, etc) you're going to absolutely 
*NEED* heavily armored grav vehicles and battledress, etc etc.  Combined Arms 
is going to get even more complicated with easy space travel (and it's pretty 
durned fun IMO, though complicated, to be a Forward Air Controller (F/A-18s, 
Cobras, Harriers) or Forward Observer for Arty/mortars (155mm/81mm), as I 
just got to practice some of that (w/ all them systems, too).  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 03:42:30 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleet Combat

> Now for an OB Trav Question...What system does Traveller use to 'game' 
Fleet 
> actions....?There have been several references to large scale combat but no 
> mention of a game system...Or does Traveller have its own...?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> High Guard (from Classic Traveller) is really designed for squadron level
> work and below, but does include a statistical combat system for
> large-scale stuff - 100 battleships vs 100 battleships and such.

Which sucks IMO.  A much better solution is TNE's Battle Rider, which allows 
the quick running of ships in "Task Forces."  Pretty fun, too.  Never tried 
100s vs 100s (at least yet).  At least not in BBs.  ;-)  

The best thing is that BR is skill based, instead of statistically based, 
like HG.  YMMV.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 03:42:29 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> >A *BILLION* credits or so is not relatively cheap compared to a 30 
*MILLION*
> >credit starship.  And if it gets whacked out, you get to spend *ANOHTER*
> >billion credits to replace it.  So where's your 'economy'?
> 
> I think you are picturing huge space stations.  That is not what
> you would have.  You would have a few fuel tanks and that is
> about it.  You might put a thruster pack on them if you want
> to move them around.

At least give us a design of one of your fueling stations.  Keepign in mind 
the numbers of dtons shipping they'll have to service (good #s in Far 
Trader).  And make them defensible (which we know is impossible for fixed 
installations).  Please add drives to these so they're not fixed.  Then gimme 
a picture how system traffic control works and the protocols for jumping in 
and trading w/ these things. 

>> In the end, there are a _number_ of things that can be done
>> and they won't the an achilles heal.  In fact, you could just
>> strap demountable tanks to them in war and simply use them
>> as lower jump ships.
>
>I don't have a problem with that.  I never have.  I *do* have problems with
>somebody's logic when they tell me that building ships without jump
>tankage is cheaper than building them with, then say 'well, you use this 
cheap

Which is clearly not the intent of the drop tank provisions to every "real" 
version of Traveller ship design.  It's only by going completely against the 
obvious grain of the only canon design (despite it's miserable rep, which is 
neither here nor there) that's such absurdity even merits a response.

> I couldn't disagree more.  The numbers I (and Ian) have posted
> in this thread say otherwise.  Even number from more sceptical
> members admit to _at least_ a 25% savings (and probably considerably
> more).

Which of course ignores the fact that drop tanks could be avoided like the 
plague for reasons that have nothing to do with their efficiency like say a 
disaster or 3, convoluted megacorp board politics, the stock market drop that 
acompanied the news of Tukera and General doing the things to begin w/.  Etc 
etc.

>> I agree that military ships won't be designed to use _just_ drop
>> tanks.  OTOH, being able to do a full jump-6 and arrive with
>> full tanks is a major advantage.
>
>You do that by strapping on a set of tanks, burning the tank fuel, ditching
>the tanks, and jumping, which has been canonical for what, 20 years now?
>That's what drop tanks were *designed for*, to let you do two jumps in a row.

Using *just* drop tanks is not what they're "designed for."  That is clearly 
against the intent of the ship design rules (to allow no or minimal internal 
tankage).

> Well, it isn't that simple.  They have been
> briefly mention and generally not explored at all.  (Its like there
> is a news entry about the discovery of jump-8, a ship design and

Strawman Alert!  For the sake of discussion, even if you get a drop tank 
equiped Jump 4 ship (capable of double jump), you still have to do (at least) 
double the time.  That is beyond Book 2 (though not having it, i can't 
confirm it allows jumps of greater than 6 anyways, though I'm pretty sure of 
it anyways).  FTR, GT does not treat jump drives like B2.

> maybe another mention, and then no discussion of it at all).  They
> cause a number of problems that have never been addressed.  In
> fact the description of what jump fuel is used for in GT contridicts
> the description of how they work.  The fact that the trader in

Hmm... seems like GT's version of jump fuel fits FF&S (the original) 
perfectly.  I see a "coolant" usage, venting to *create* the "bubble", and 
some converted to energy ala the normal definition of "fuel."  How do drop 
tanks conflict w/ that?  Especially when you use the explanation I gave a 
Looooong (at least seems that way <g>) time ago in this very thread.

> >> See my ealier post.  Worlds with BTN down around 6.5 will
> >> have some such service.  This doesn't even qualify as a minor
> >> route and, in the sample sector from Far Trader, even some
> >> of the E's would qualify.
> 
> >No.  Type C ports only have unrefined fuel availiable.  Type D's are the
> >same, only with less extensive facilities.  And Type E's are just wide 
spots to set
> >down on.
> 
> None of which prevents you from parking a fuel shuttle at the port.

Care to run some numbers on the cost of that?  ;-)  

> >  My take on it is this:  if they don't have refined fuel availiable,
> >they ain't got drop tanks availiable.  Period.  How much simpler do you 
need
> >it?
> 
> I don't need it simpler, I need it more believable.

Then WHY haven't you at least *TRIED* to help make them such instead of 
attempting to fillibuster and stonewall them out of G:T?  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 00:56:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>>   Umm, let's assume that a security/lookout vessel from a completely separate
>> agency operating completely independently of any commercial facilities that
>> may or may not be in a given system just might not be designed to require the
>> services of said station?
>
>So how is a third party ship going to refuel from a fueling point that's been 
>destroyed?

  They're not; I agree that they're screwed. I've written an essay on this
point, but perhaps Mr. Summers would like to continue this debate with you.

...
>Which is why I ignore them.  I don't see rocks as being particularly tenable 
>even though they're dirt cheap.

  However, this sort of station is exactly what they do very cheaply. I
assume that by "ignore" you don't mean "ban from HG2/OTU"? Oh, and the
armour rating three is included in the hull cost :)

...
>One would presume that these stations would exist to provide *refined* fuel.  
>Class C or worse starports don't have refined fuel by their very definition.  
>I fall back on my earlier 'rule of thumb' in that if there's no refined fuel 
>availiable, there are no fueling stations present in the system.

  None at the best starport. Other facilities not available to common traffic
may have refined L-Hyd available, as may other ships currently in the system.

...
>>   "My" numbers come from HG2; it is, however, important to politely ask the
>> rules to provide the answer that you're looking for :) And actually in the
>> case described the combination can easily cost substantially _less_.
>
>Heh.  You still have to pay for digging out the station.  And since there's no 
difference in price between cargo space and fuel tankage, the ship still
costs the same.
So you *still* spend more on the entire system than you would on just the
ship and you get out from under the drawbacks.

  i) I already paid for that. I don't suppose you checked the rules?
 ii) The station portion of the system is still vastly cheaper; review the
relevant post if necessary.
iii) No. See ii), above for suggestions.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:17:09 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: starship prices...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 4 May 1999 2:26
Subject: re: starship prices


>
>One question: how modular are starship components? When that
>annual maintenance comes around, are things getting repaired or
>replaced**?
>
>With 2% of purchase price paid every year for maintenance, in
>addition to any payments for anything actually worn out or damaged
>between annual maintenance stops, it may be that your 40 year old
>free trader has a 5 year old sensor array, an 8 year old laser turret
>mechanism, a 2 year old fusion containment shell, etc., etc., etc...
>
>Older ships should be incrementally harder to maintain and repair,
>but I think it should hit a limit at some age, to represent a ship that
>is less and less original/outdated equipment and more and more
>modern, maintainable subsystems. Sure, it would be tough to find
>circuit boards for a MeriTech Wideband Scanner nowadays, but that
>system was installed in the _Faraway Lady_ back in 1076 - we ripped
>that out and put in a nice InterComp 23XR years ago...
>
>Walt Smith
>
>** By "replaced", I of course mean that the maintenance yard pulled
>the part, replaced it with a reconditioned one, and sent the old part to
>their shipyard workshop to be reconditioned for the next ship. Since the
>shipyard is only paying labor and tools, plus the occaisional part they
>initially accept as "refurbishable" but later have to discard, they may be
>able to swap pretty expensive parts.
>

I don't know about the US, but in Oz, you don't get many Ford parts that fit
into a Holden (a GM), the reason?  Because Ford and GMH want you to buy
their parts from them (although all over the world there are generic brands
from China, Korea, etc., I assume?).  Furthermore, even within each stable,
there are few parts that are the same in the small, medium, and large cars!
Interchangeable things are filter-, plug-, and lead-type parts.

For a safety standard, I would go for a large amount of interchangeable
parts between in-house models of starships (Ferd Inc.'s FreeTrader,
FarTrader, and Farliner), but I assume that they want you to buy them from
their manufacturers, not their competition (Snerd Co.'s FreeTrader slide
flange does simply not fit the Ferd model!).  This is just MHO, but I have
read how competitive these companies can be, why give the comp an edge
anywhere?  Licenses not withstanding.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 05:48:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> > >A *BILLION* credits or so is not relatively cheap compared to a 30 
> *MILLION*
> > >credit starship.  And if it gets whacked out, you get to spend *ANOHTER*
> > >billion credits to replace it.  So where's your 'economy'?
> > 
> > I think you are picturing huge space stations.  That is not what
> > you would have.  You would have a few fuel tanks and that is
> > about it.  You might put a thruster pack on them if you want
> > to move them around.
> 
> At least give us a design of one of your fueling stations.  Keepign in mind 
> the numbers of dtons shipping they'll have to service (good #s in Far 
> Trader).  And make them defensible (which we know is impossible for fixed 
> installations).  Please add drives to these so they're not fixed.  Then gimme 
> a picture how system traffic control works and the protocols for jumping in 
> and trading w/ these things. 

It's 0530, so I'll do this tomorrow, ok?

> >> In the end, there are a _number_ of things that can be done
> >> and they won't the an achilles heal.  In fact, you could just
> >> strap demountable tanks to them in war and simply use them
> >> as lower jump ships.
> >
> >I don't have a problem with that.  I never have.  I *do* have problems with
> >somebody's logic when they tell me that building ships without jump
> >tankage is cheaper than building them with, then say 'well, you use this 
> cheap
> 
> Which is clearly not the intent of the drop tank provisions to every "real" 
> version of Traveller ship design.  It's only by going completely against the 
> obvious grain of the only canon design (despite it's miserable rep, which is 
> neither here nor there) that's such absurdity even merits a response.

You know that, I know that, Marc knows that, but some of the other denizens 
here don't seem to catch onto it.
 
> >> I agree that military ships won't be designed to use _just_ drop
> >> tanks.  OTOH, being able to do a full jump-6 and arrive with
> >> full tanks is a major advantage.
> >
> >You do that by strapping on a set of tanks, burning the tank fuel, ditching
> >the tanks, and jumping, which has been canonical for what, 20 years now?
> >That's what drop tanks were *designed for*, to let you do two jumps in a row.
> 
> Using *just* drop tanks is not what they're "designed for."  That is clearly 
> against the intent of the ship design rules (to allow no or minimal internal 
> tankage).

I based the above rebuttal on a ship *having* internal tankage sufficient for 
a second jump.
 
> > Well, it isn't that simple.  They have been
> > briefly mention and generally not explored at all.  (Its like there
> > is a news entry about the discovery of jump-8, a ship design and
> 
> Strawman Alert!  For the sake of discussion, even if you get a drop tank 
> equiped Jump 4 ship (capable of double jump), you still have to do (at least) 
> double the time.  That is beyond Book 2 (though not having it, i can't 
> confirm it allows jumps of greater than 6 anyways, though I'm pretty sure of 
> it anyways).  FTR, GT does not treat jump drives like B2.

I haven't seen J7+ ships mentioned *anywhere* that can jump that far in a 
*CONTROLLED* manner.  Of course, YMWV in a misjump....
 
> > maybe another mention, and then no discussion of it at all).  They
> > cause a number of problems that have never been addressed.  In
> > fact the description of what jump fuel is used for in GT contridicts
> > the description of how they work.  The fact that the trader in
> 
> Hmm... seems like GT's version of jump fuel fits FF&S (the original) 
> perfectly.  I see a "coolant" usage, venting to *create* the "bubble", and 
> some converted to energy ala the normal definition of "fuel."  How do drop 
> tanks conflict w/ that?  Especially when you use the explanation I gave a 
> Looooong (at least seems that way <g>) time ago in this very thread.

I'm a 'gridder' myself.  The rules say 10% per jump number, I *use* 10% per 
jump number.  Simple as that.  I don't believe in using 'part' of the fuel to 
'create the bubble', you use it *all* to create the energy to create the 
bubble.  No wastage.  I've seen what happens when people say 'Well, if we have 
this rilly rilly high tech *HIGHLY* efficient drive, it wouldn't *POSSIBLY* 
use *ALL* that fuel just to make a bubble, there's *GOT* to be increased 
efficienies at higher tech levels', this just degenerates to people trying to 
bypass the 10% per jump number fuel requirement.

FWIW, once upon a time, about 18 years ago, my character was one of 4 who had 
a TL25 antimatter powered scout ship of about 200 tons.  We had to buy *LOTS* 
of LHyd to feed it, since it used *some* of the LHyd to convert the rest to 
antimatter.  IIRC, we could do 2xJ6's in it *IF* we fed it something like 135% 
of the ship's volume in *refined* LHyd to fully charge the antimatter 
reservoir.  Our characters got some *strange* looks when they'd tell the ramp 
rats to 'fill it up, and don't worry about it overflowing.  Should take about 
280 tons, just don't pump it in too fast...'  Course those 2 J6's would take 2 
weeks plus the downtime needed to recalculate the 2nd jump.
 
> > >  My take on it is this:  if they don't have refined fuel availiable,
> > >they ain't got drop tanks availiable.  Period.  How much simpler do you 
> need
> > >it?
> > 
> > I don't need it simpler, I need it more believable.
> 
> Then WHY haven't you at least *TRIED* to help make them such instead of 
> attempting to fillibuster and stonewall them out of G:T?  

I'm having problems believing that a system that only has unrefined fuel would 
have fueling stations handy.  <shrug>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:55:25 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 4 May 1999 1:03
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...



>>How do you referee if you can't analogize the NPCs' weapons for your
>>PCs?
>
>I'd look them up if necessary, or go by generic names. "He's carrying a
>surplus Coalition autoshotgun."
>
>My players tend to stop after they hear "it looks like an automatic
>weapon", so I've never _needed_ to know the weapons of the world by heart.
>
>When I was running a Twilight 2000 game for my kids, I handled the combat
>by statistics, and let them worry about weapons. I just copied out the
>weapon cards from the supplement and went by what was on the card.
>
>

Yes, I agree with this (except I made-up my own names for Traveller weapons.
It's fine saying it looks like a Luger or Walther or Colt, etc. if you want
sci-fi weapons to look like that, but in my old campaign, most weapons
looked like the ones depicted in JTAS's and on Alien Module covers.  Check
out the pistol on one of those covers, looks noting like any 20th century
pistol that I know of...

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #558
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 559



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Request
Re: Copyright 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Traveller Items for sale or trade
Re: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions [was Re: Traveller Fanzines...]
Re: Background color source
Re: Telepresence
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe
Re: for MTA2 computer game, need hints and distances chart
Re: Telepresence
RE: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: Telepresence
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Different brands (was: Re: starship prices...)
Re: Traveller Items for sale or trade
Re: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale
Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Gas Giant Atmospheres

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 06:04:04 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >>   Umm, let's assume that a security/lookout vessel from a completely separate
> >> agency operating completely independently of any commercial facilities that
> >> may or may not be in a given system just might not be designed to require the
> >> services of said station?
> >
> >So how is a third party ship going to refuel from a fueling point that's been 
> >destroyed?
> 
>   They're not; I agree that they're screwed. I've written an essay on this
> point, but perhaps Mr. Summers would like to continue this debate with you.

Your previous post, which I responded to, implied that they still could.  Just 
reading what you *wrote*.
 
> ...
> >Which is why I ignore them.  I don't see rocks as being particularly tenable 
> >even though they're dirt cheap.
> 
>   However, this sort of station is exactly what they do very cheaply. I
> assume that by "ignore" you don't mean "ban from HG2/OTU"? Oh, and the
> armour rating three is included in the hull cost :)

I don't design ships using asteroids for the simple reason that you lose 20% 
of the volume or the ship breaks up from being too weak.  That means, with a 
5KT rock, you *only* get 4KT of useable space.  IMNSFBHO, not worth it.

And as far as armour goes, it takes what, Factor 4 weaponry to get by it?  
That's 2 triple missile turrets at TL13, 2 triple beam lasers at TL*7*, 2 dual 
plasma turrets at TL12, *ANY* fusion gun turret, 6 PA barbettes, 4 PA turrets 
at TL15, *ANY* spinal weapon, or *ANY* bay weapon.  IOW, just about *any* 
military or paramilitary ship can hit it.
 
> ...
> >One would presume that these stations would exist to provide *refined* fuel.  
> >Class C or worse starports don't have refined fuel by their very definition.  
> >I fall back on my earlier 'rule of thumb' in that if there's no refined fuel 
> >availiable, there are no fueling stations present in the system.
> 
>   None at the best starport. Other facilities not available to common traffic
> may have refined L-Hyd available, as may other ships currently in the system.

I still don't see it.

> ...
> >>   "My" numbers come from HG2; it is, however, important to politely ask the
> >> rules to provide the answer that you're looking for :) And actually in the
> >> case described the combination can easily cost substantially _less_.
> >
> >Heh.  You still have to pay for digging out the station.  And since there's no 
> difference in price between cargo space and fuel tankage, the ship still
> costs the same.
> So you *still* spend more on the entire system than you would on just the
> ship and you get out from under the drawbacks.
> 
>   i) I already paid for that. I don't suppose you checked the rules?

You're telling me the ship *and* the station is cheaper than just the ship by 
itself.  Ain't happening in the real world.

>  ii) The station portion of the system is still vastly cheaper; review the
> relevant post if necessary.

But you're not counting the whole *system*, you're just counting the ships it 
serves.  Ship + fuel station cost does *NOT* equal the cost of the ship itself.

> iii) No. See ii), above for suggestions.

Heh.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:46:47 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Request

G'day Loren,

> need someone who can supply me with a scan of the K'kree and Aslan scripts
>in whatever places they may have occured over the years.

As far as I can tell, there _aren't_ any specific examples of either Aslan
or K'kree script except what _might_ be script on armour, clothing, and
accoutrements in some of the Keith drawings, and what is certainly writing
on the hulls of the ships in the illustrations in "Aslan Mercenary Ships"
also by the Keiths.

The script there is very similar to Arabic or Indonesian.
If you like I can send you scan's of those ships.

This is based on a quick search through JTAS and the Alien modules, of which
I think I have all the relevant ones.

There is, however a lot of Aslan and K'kree language, including word
generation tables in the Alien modules.

Frankie









>
>
>Loren Wiseman
>     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
>     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
>     SJ Games
>     LKW@IO.COM
>     (512) 447-7866 VOX
>     (512) 447-1144 FAX
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:57:03 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright 

At 17:21 02/05/1999 -0400, "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com> wrote:
>>There is a misunderstanding here, I thought it was Vilani copyright laws
>>that kept the First Imperium static at GTL10 for ten millennia.
>
>As opposed to the Third Imperium which has progressed a whole two tech
>levels in 1000 years?

Noone else seems to have made a better job of TL13-TL15.

Apart from the Darrians.

The Darrians must have cheated. Perhaps they used their TL16 knowledge
to make the jump from TL13 to TL15 in less time. ;-)

Phil Kitching 
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:52:57 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

At 02:45 04/05/1999 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>So how is a third party ship going to refuel from a fueling point that's
been 
>destroyed?

The same way as it will if it doesn't have fuel scoops - put everyone
into low berth and await supplies of lemon-soaked napkins. :-)

I seem to recall a situation with 100D refuelling stations when it
was calaculated that the cost of a trip to the gas giant was too
much because of the time taken compared with allowing the merchants
to save money by not using fuel scoops, purification plants,
streamlining, 10G structural bracing and CG drives.

The economic arguments seemed to be in favour of 100D stations with
non-starships for trips to the gas giants or the planet. With a large
enough trade volume, you can have several around the Star's 100D limit
and effectively ignore the jump masking problem.

Where there were E type starports on a key run, the calculations
seemed to point to the megacorps adding such an infrastructure, just
to avoid building a new ship design just for the route.

(With drop tanks, they could just jump over the system.)

So drop tanks should be just plugging into an existing orbital
refuelling infrastructure.

Phil Kitching


- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 13:17:45 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

At 14:25 03/05/1999 -0700, "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
>
>>  I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that my wife
>> calls 'the axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel (wooden grips held on
>> with brass fittings) with serrated edges, a back-spike, and beveled front
>
>(ROFL)
>
>I've heard that household melee weapons should be things that you're
>used to having in your hand anyway.  So a broom (which is just a bo
>stick with bristles on one end) is good household weapon (for the person
>who does the sweeping), as is a telephone.  I would say that I'm very
>very used to having a pen in my hand, but except for the steel Cross
>pen, a pen would only be effective if I could stick it in my opponent's
>eye.

I'm not convinced by the broom - too big for use indoors, especially
the ones with the extra wide heads.

Besides, having carpets, we've got a vacuum cleaner at home, which is
far too unwieldy.

Just like using a computer keyboard or a phone: either I get my feet
caught in the wires or the guy retreats beyong the range of the
extension cable.

8-)

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 08:25:28 -0400
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Traveller Items for sale or trade

Hi,
	I have a copy of the TAS Alien Encyclopaedia that I would like to part
with.  The book is still in the original box that it was shipped in, and
is in perfect shape.

	I also have 2 copies of AHL for sale.  One copy is brand spanking new,
unpunched, complete.  The books are included (AHL Rules & Supplement 5
Lightning class cruisers).  Both books have _NO_ binding wear - since
they are new - never used condition.
	The second copy is one that had been owned by someone close to Marc
Miller (as I was told).  The game is complete, punched counters, books
(with some minor wear), and deck plans.  The deck plans were
'customized' where some decks are duplicated, while others are missing
(being filled in by the duplicates).  It is a custom version of the AHL
deck plans which offers some interesting scenario opportunities.

	There is also a large and almost complete collection that will need to
be sold to raise more money for furniture for a new addition to the
family.  If you are looking for something in particular, I would be more
than happy to pull it out and give condition information on the item(s).

	Please respond privately to: scspieker@ncweb.com

Thank you for your time, and I apologize for the waste of band width.

Scott Spieker
scspieker@ncweb.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:33:40 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale

In a message dated 99-05-04 03:10:02 EDT, you write:

<< All I had was the basic rules for T4, but it is already spoken for now. 
 Sorry... >>

You win some, you lose some.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:43:03 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

>> >It's a matter of cost and scale and mission.  The Rampart cannot hold
>> >*ground* while a Trepida (and even better, an Astrin) can.  A rampart (much
>> >less a Close Escort or Destroyer) is 1/3 more expensive than a Trepida (7
>> >times the price of an Astrin), while a CE is almost 15 times as expensive
>as
>> >a Trepida and 50 times as expensive as an Astrin.  A DD is about 100 times
>as
>> >expensive as the Trepida and an Astrin a helluva lot more.  ;-)
>>
>> The point is not to compare the Trepida or Astrin to the Rampart, but to
>> the Air/Raft.
>
>That is precisely the point, because that's what it's going to come down to
>eventually.  The Rampart is awesome support for people on the ground, or for
>blowing up things from orbit.  But acting like an AV-8b Harrier is not what
>it's designed for.  The Rampart can't hold any ground *at all*.  People don't
>surrender to space fighters in orbit (or even jet fighters in teh
>atmosphere), but to people on the ground w/ them, w/ a weapon system in their
>direction.

You are either missing or ignoring my point.

Please read carefully.  All of the below statements are in the context of a
Traveller Universe where lasers from orbit are perfectly effective against
vehicle size targets.

There is no reason to purchase an Astrin or Trepida to hold ground when you
can hold ground with a lightweight lightly armed g-carrier (and its troop
complement).

The Trepida and Astrin are the Cadillac of armored vehicles in the TL15
Traveller Universe.  They are quite expensive, as are all heavily armored,
powerfully armed grav vehicles.  If the ground troops can rely on "air"
cover that can instantly render any opposing vehicle class weapon carrier
into its component atoms then heavily armed and armored vehicles are
obsolete.  I am not saying that The Imperial Marines can hold ground from
orbit, only that they do not need the same equipment to hold ground in a
scenario where orbital fire is so perfectly effective as has been suggested.

This is simplistic.  There will always be unusual situation in the above
scenario where armored vehicles are at least useful.  But the procurement
of military hardware will not cater to the unusual situation, but the usual
one.

Note also that I do not believe that, in the canon nor in my own Traveller
Universe, lasers from orbit *should* be that effective.  From a game play
standpoint I'd rather they were a bit less accurate when firing from orbit
at ground targets.

>> If any armored or unarmored vehicle can be killed from orbit, there is no
>> need for heavy weapons or heavy armor on vehicles.  Only enough armor to
>> resist fire from foot (armored) infantry is needed.
>
>Because nothing is ever a sure bet.  There *could* be some determined
>resistance in orbit, that puts ortillery's weapons somewhere else.  In an
>ideal situation, you don't need grav vehicles at all.  *UNTIL* you want to do
>more than blow things up and actually claim the turf you've been bombing for.
> Against even a low tech guerilla action, your troops will survive if they
>have good armored vehicles (to say nothing of tactics and training, which are
>more important, though there will be causalties in any case).  Hmm... sounds
>like i'm talking bout hte situation in the Balkans, no?  ;-)
>
>Against the other polities (Zhos, Solomani, etc) you're going to absolutely
>*NEED* heavily armored grav vehicles and battledress, etc etc.  Combined Arms
>is going to get even more complicated with easy space travel (and it's pretty
>durned fun IMO, though complicated, to be a Forward Air Controller (F/A-18s,
>Cobras, Harriers) or Forward Observer for Arty/mortars (155mm/81mm), as I
>just got to practice some of that (w/ all them systems, too).  :-)

The problem is, you are comparing the scenario I've been talking about
(perfect orbital fire support) with reality (imperfect air support).  The
fact is, I agree more with your viewpoint *when the assumption of perfect
orbital fire is not being used*.  Unfortunately, that is what this
discussion was turned towards and all my previous statements were made in
that context.

And in that context, if you do not hold orbit, you do not hold ground.
It's like the trump card of all time.  There is no way, with densiometer
technology to make hiding places useless, IR sensors which make nighttime
irrelevent, and weapons which can strike from orbital distances with
pinpoint accuracy with no possibility of return fire, that an opposing
force can conduct any vehicular activity with any hope of the vehicles
returning to their bases.

Its a very simple situation, which is to say one that wont happen in
reality.  then again, it is just a game, right?

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:50:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions [was Re: Traveller Fanzines...]

In a message dated 99-05-04 03:27:32 EDT, you write:

<< You forgot "reasonable vehicle design system", but "the three levels of
 combat do not mesh well".
 
 You can use Kenneth Bearden's KBv2 to get rid of the half dice, if you
 like. This and TNE are probably two of the best task systems for Trav - at
 least you get to use your entire stat. In MY, a stat of 14 gave you the
 same bonus as a stat of 10  - why bother? But using KBv2, you use all of
 it.
 
 So: tack on a few things, and the system becomes much more playable! - but
 I've never found a workable solution for the differing combat scales. >>

KBv2?  What are the three differing combat scales?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:02:57 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Background color source

In a message dated 99-05-03 19:00:05 EDT, you write:

<< It's a good movie, too, but I usually just use my own memories of junior
 high school as the basis for any prison scenes. >>

What was yout high school?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:13:43 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Telepresence

In a message dated 99-05-03 12:55:39 EDT, you write:

<< >Imagine trying to drive a car where you see everything 10 minutes
 >after it happends and your reaction take 10 minutes to happen.
 >
 >Remote troopers will tend to walk into trees and such quite a bit.
 >And get blown away at the first ambush. >>

That's why you give the trooper somesort of AI, so that the robotic legion 
can be commanded by just a few people, far away from the front.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:28:44 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

In a message dated 99-05-03 09:59:06 EDT, you write:

<< I'll have to come up with the equations and crunch this a bit.  The 
official
 "Traveller" projection?  Is this the projection they used for 
Invasion:Earth, or
 did they do something fancier (or perhaps a bit more loosey-goosey)? >>

What is Invashion:Earth?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:31:54 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: for MTA2 computer game, need hints and distances chart

In a message dated 99-05-03 09:00:03 EDT, you write:

<< Ok:  I've got an unusable copy of the second megatraveller computer
 game, as it apparently didn't come with the distances chart (that's 
 the copy protection scheme).  Also, any hints on the second game
 would be real helpful.
 
 Heck, hints for the first game would be helpful.  I got to a certain 
 point, then get blown up. >>

What are the computer games like?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:41:02 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

- ----------
> From: SRKOALA@aol.com
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Telepresence
> Date: Tuesday, 04 May, 1999 10:13 AM
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-03 12:55:39 EDT, you write:
> 
>  >Remote troopers will tend to walk into trees and such quite a bit.
>  >And get blown away at the first ambush. >>
> 
> That's why you give the trooper somesort of AI, so that the robotic
legion 
> can be commanded by just a few people, far away from the front.

Well, you can, but probably not in the Third Imperium.  They actively
dislike AI, especially when it's armed.

This is essentially the Zhodani solution; lots of warbots mixed in with the
human troops. They can fight on their own at the tactical level, but need
operational direction from the unit commanders.  You still need people,
mainly for their creativity and problem-solving abilities.  

A thought: shouldn't the Zhos have larger robotic combat vehicles like
tanks?

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:54:51 -0500 
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

On Monday, 03 May 1999 22:23, Mark Cook [SMTP:markc@peak.org] wrote:
> Um... Glenn?  Glock makes the Glock 18, a select-fire 9mm machine pistol,

Also, they make a drop in selector switch that will fit most any Glock
pistol - but it isn't available in the US.  For pictures and more info
(including videos of full-auto Glocks) go to
http://www.panix.com/~ericl/guns/

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:52:56 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Telepresence

In a message dated 99-05-04 10:45:33 EDT, you write:

<< This is essentially the Zhodani solution; lots of warbots mixed in with the
 human troops. They can fight on their own at the tactical level, but need
 operational direction from the unit commanders.  You still need people,
 mainly for their creativity and problem-solving abilities.   >>

Yeap, were good at that (as this and other mailing lists have proved).
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:38:12 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

At 03:42 AM 5/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>is going to get even more complicated with easy space travel (and it's pretty 
>durned fun IMO, though complicated, to be a Forward Air Controller (F/A-18s, 
>Cobras, Harriers) or Forward Observer for Arty/mortars (155mm/81mm), as I 
>just got to practice some of that (w/ all them systems, too).  :-)

Are you serious about that last one?  My grandfather was an FO in WWII, and
often described that as the worst job in the army....  I've heard that
elsewhere, too.  Or did the job description change since then?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:44:43 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Different brands (was: Re: starship prices...)

At 07:17 PM 5/4/99 +1000, you wrote:
>I don't know about the US, but in Oz, you don't get many Ford parts that fit
>into a Holden (a GM), the reason?  Because Ford and GMH want you to buy
>their parts from them (although all over the world there are generic brands
>from China, Korea, etc., I assume?).  Furthermore, even within each stable,
>there are few parts that are the same in the small, medium, and large cars!
>Interchangeable things are filter-, plug-, and lead-type parts.
>
>For a safety standard, I would go for a large amount of interchangeable
>parts between in-house models of starships (Ferd Inc.'s FreeTrader,
>FarTrader, and Farliner), but I assume that they want you to buy them from
>their manufacturers, not their competition (Snerd Co.'s FreeTrader slide
>flange does simply not fit the Ferd model!).  This is just MHO, but I have
>read how competitive these companies can be, why give the comp an edge
>anywhere?  Licenses not withstanding.


That's actually a very good point and is something I'd like to see more
attention devoted too (maybe in GT Starships?  Are you listening Chris?:) )
 I'd really like to see more variants on the same ship idea in the OTU.
They tried that in T4 EV, and gave 6 or so models of each vehicle, but
unfortunately that book had other problems.  

Ideally, I'd like to see Trav sourcebooks borrow something from Shadowrun,
where every piece of equipment, especially starships, is made by a specific
company, with it's own histories, quirks, followers, etc.  I realize space
is limited, but it would be really nice....



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:50:57 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Items for sale or trade

At 08:25 AM 5/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>	There is also a large and almost complete collection that will need to
>be sold to raise more money for furniture for a new addition to the
>family.  If you are looking for something in particular, I would be more
>than happy to pull it out and give condition information on the item(s).
>
>	Please respond privately to: scspieker@ncweb.com

If you make a definitive list, I'd be very interested in seeing it.  As for
requests, at the top of my list is DGP's Starship Operators Manual.  Do you
have it/willing to part with it?  

Let me know,

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:54:46 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale

At 09:33 AM 5/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-04 03:10:02 EDT, you write:
>
><< All I had was the basic rules for T4, but it is already spoken for now. 
> Sorry... >>
>
>You win some, you lose some.
>-Stephen
Have you tried Imperium Games itself?  They still list CSC, Starships and
FFS on their order form (dunno if that means they are still in or what).
Their address is:

http://www.ImperiumGames.com/



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:15:20 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

I've not been following this thread closely, so please forgive me if this
is way off target...


>>So how is a third party ship going to refuel from a fueling point
>>that's been destroyed?


It doesn't, but it's not supposed to. I think that's the point. Not every
vessel in the entire universe is going to rely on drop tanks, just the ones
where it makes a lot of economic sense to do so.

Perhaps I am not completely in tune with this thread since I've skimmed
most of it, but it seems to me that a fuel station's military vulnerability
wouldn't be a big factor when considering whether they exist or not for
merchantile and/or civilian purposes.

Gasoline stations are big, sitting targets which explode quite nicely, yet
they are quite numerous in the real world.

In a war, the infrastructure's going to get trashed no matter what scheme
you use.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:34:19 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Gas Giant Atmospheres

Greetings, all.

Some good stuff is happening today with the Galileo
mission and I'd thought I'd post an excerpt from
the mission report. It has lots of juicy details
which can be used to make gas giant skimming much
more entertaining for both players and GMs (if
you're into details, that is). It also describes how
instruments are used for planetary surveys (great
background for Scout/scientific adventures).

- -- quote --

Once again, most of Galileo's attention is directed
toward Jupiter as the spacecraft's Solid State Imaging
camera and Utraviolet Spectrometer spend most of the
day observing the giant planet.  The activity is only
briefly interrupted toward the end of the day to allow
the Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer to perform a remote
observation of the Io torus.  On the flyby front, the
spacecraft flies past Ganymede today at 3:18 am PDT...
at a distance of 636,000 kilometers (396,000 miles).

Throughout the day, the spacecraft's camera takes images
of a variety of cloud features in Jupiter's atmosphere.
These observations are designed to determine the dynamics
of cloud motion in three dimensions, with high spatial
and time resolution.  Each feature is observed three to
six times as it moves across Jupiter's sunlit hemisphere.
Some of the features are also imaged after they have
rotated into the night side of Jupiter, to look for
lightning flashes which the scientists hope to correlate
with clouds seen in the daylight images taken earlier
in the same areas.  The features covered by this
observation campaign are equatorial waves, high speed
jets, clouds in the north and south equatorial belts,
and white ovals.  In addition, the camera also makes
an observation of Jupiter's aurora to measure its
vertical structure at high resolution.  The Ultraviolet
Spectrometer takes advantage of these observation
opportunities to also make measurements of these features.

In addition to the observations taken along with the
spacecraft camera, the Ultraviolet Spectrometer also
performs its own measurements of Jupiter.  In one type of
observation, the spectrometer measures hydrogen in
Jupiter's dark atmosphere.  Without sunlight, changes in
hydrogen loss are caused by interaction with particles in
Jupiter's magnetosphere and mixing of the upper atmosphere
with lower cloud levels.  In a second type of observation,
taken on Jupiter's lit side, the spectrometer measures
hydrocarbons in Jupiter's upper atmosphere. Finally, the
spectrometer takes a look at aurora in Jupiter's atmosphere.
These observations will allow scientists to further study
the dynamics of Jupiter's upper atmosphere, and its
interaction with Jupiter's magnetosphere.

- -- end quote --

I wonder how well a 40+ year old merchant will deal with
terrajoule lightning bolts and 200+ mph/kph winds and
high-speed jetstreams. Seems to me there could be gas
giants which simply can't be skimmed due to local
radiation/weather effects. Would such a situation require
a slow approach vector and some intense study of weather
conditions or just force the merchie to pay for fuel at
the starport?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #559
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 560



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Telepresence
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Re: solid hydrogen fuel
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe
Re: The Swordsmen of San Francisco
Re: Four Day Planet
Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #543
Re: PCs' favorite things
Re: Four Day Planet
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 13:02:25 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

At 10:41 AM 5/4/99 -0400, you wrote:

>A thought: shouldn't the Zhos have larger robotic combat vehicles like
>tanks?

"Hello Citizen Schoene," says the uniformed Tavrchedl' officer.  "Would you
please come with us?  You seem to be deluded about some of our military
capability..."

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 07:59:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In mail you write:

>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>> In a message dated 5/1/99 2:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> <<
>>>>  menn (a company?) held a chokepoint on a river  >>
>>>> A Battalion...The story- West of Honor......
>>>
>>> A company, Company A of the 501st Provisional Battalion, under Lt
>>> Harlan 'Hal' Slater, at Ft Beersheba.  Funny you should mention that;
>>> I'm in the process of rereading West of Honor at the moment...
>>
>>Great! Since I can't find my copy, could you post the words to the ine
>>marine "march"? That's the one about "We've left blood on the..."
>
> The one that's the same as a Kipling poem?

It is? I can see sentiments that Kipling would understand. But it
doesn't "feel" like Kipling. 

But there's a *lot* of Kipling that's worth looking at. One lovely to
steal some ideas from is something I first Encountered in Smith's "Gray
Lensman"... "The Ballad of Boh Da Thone". It's an interesting tale. And
I'm sure some of you could swipe either a scenario idea or an NPC from
it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:07:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In mail you write:

>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>> Great! Since I can't find my copy, could you post the words to the ine
>>>> marine "march"? That's the one about "We've left blood on the..."
>>>
>>> We've left blood in the dirt of twenty-five worlds
>>> We've built roads on a dozen more.
>>> And all that we have at the end of our hitch
>>> Buys a night with a second-class whore.
> [snip]
>>The above can be stuck into Traveller easily. Especially since the only
>>"named" references are "the Senate", "the Fleet", "the Line Marines",
>>and "Grand Admiral".
>
> I suggest starting with the original version, written by Kipling.

Do you have a name for the Kipling version? Or even the first couple of
lines?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:09:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

In mail you write:

> HEHEHEHEH... most referees with no military experience will let you carry a
> folding shovel, no questions asked, even where a battle axe would be unheard
> of.  The canny ones always asked why I thought I'd need a shovel...
>
> OB Traveller: the current US Military still teaches (and issues) bayonets
> for the M-16.  Sort of like Imperial Marines and their cutlasses.  What
> about the Army?

I have trouble picturing an M-16 with a bayonet holding together. The
rifle is a *lousy* shape for most moves, and all that plastic is gonna
come apart. <sigh>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:14:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: solid hydrogen fuel

In mail you write:

> More interesting for Traveller tech would be liquid metallic hydrogen
> - that can have extremely large densities, but requires tremendous
> pressures, not unimaginable to technology that can make superdense
> alloys.

Still, isn't metallic hydrogen only about .1 g/cc? That's an *awful*
lot of trouble for something that's only 30% denser. 

While it'd be useless for *fuel*, I recall there being some speculation
that *solid* metallic hydrogen might be metastable. That is, like
diamond, once formed it could exist at lower pressures as long as the
temperature didn't get too high. 

It'd be interesting for some purposes. For example, a nuke with a
metallic tritium casing to boost the yeild. Heck, for all I know, an
implosion could push metallic hydrogen to the point of starting a
fusion reaction. 

> One thing that would help with this, and with the Interminable Drop
> Tank Debate, would be to make jump performance and fuel requirements
> based on mass rather than volume...neatly removing most of the
> advantages of drop tanks.

Hardly. The advantage of drop tanks depends on you being able to "use"
the fuel *before* jump, for the most part. Even if what you are doing
is feeding your *internal* Jump tankage to the J-drive, and refilling
the internal tankage from the drop tanks. 

The secondary (and minor) usage where you take the tanks *through* a
jump to refuel afterwards, depend on your ship being able to haul them
along anyway. So while the cutoff point for practicality will be
different, there will still be designs that can do it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:26:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

In mail you write:

> I'll have to come up with the equations and crunch this a bit.  The
> official "Traveller" projection?  Is this the projection they used
> for Invasion:Earth, or did they do something fancier (or perhaps a
> bit more loosey-goosey)?

The one I see all the time looks a lot like one Buckminster Fuller came
up with. 

> Anyone out there have their books to hand?  What are the official
> size codes, and their diameters in km (and is this a can of worms?
> has it varied from version to version?).

Well, it's actually the diameter in thousands of miles. 

	 diameter	  radius
Size 	miles	km	miles	km
- ----	-----	-----	-----	------
1	1000	16e5	500	8e5
2	2000	32e5	1000	16e5
3	3000	48e5	1500	24e5
4	4000	64e5	2000	32e5
5	5000	80e5	2500	40e5
6	6000	96e5	3000	48e5
7	7000	112e5	3500	56e5
8	8000	128e5	4000	64e5
9	9000	144e5	4500	72e5
10	10k	160e5	5000	80e5

The above are rough, but close enough.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:41:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-02 16:37:20 EDT, you write:
>
> << You've also overlooked the Neural Activity Sensor from one of the Scout
>  books. It ought to be pretty revealing. >>
>
> Realy?  How much detail do you get?

I'm not sure. But I *am* sure that mammalian versus reptilian brain
patterns will be *easy* to diferentiate. The structure of a reptile
brain is *very* different from that of mammals. Not only do they lack
the frontal lobes (so do most mammals), they lack the entire cerebrum
IIRC (or is it cerebellum?) 

Itelligent reptiles would have to evolve something to fill in the
"gap", but odds are against it being much like the cererum. And thus,
they'll have *very* different readings. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:37:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

In mail you write:

>> Product idea!
>> 
>> "Globes" made of some sort of plastic with a surface similar to
>> drafting film (sort of a matte finish that will take ink and pencil
>> easily, but can also be erased and reused). Make them in 10 sizes for
>> size 1 thru size 10 worlds. 
>
> Wow.  That's a good idea.  *I'd* buy bunches of them.  I wonder if that's 
> economical for someone like SJG to do (or maybe whoever will/can put out T5).
>
>> The ref could transfer maps of commonly visited worlds to them, and
>> otherwise just use them for size references.
>
> Transfer how?  That's one of the hardest part bout handdrawn, as opposed to 
> computerized mapping tools.  Drawing by hand, it's sometimes hard to do 
> things *exactly* the same.  Maybe have a software type tool attached (Jim Vs 
> Galactic would be an awesome starting point), then the "zoom" forms for the 
> IISS and RCES mapping forms, etc. 

Well, I'd tend to "trace" things, and then fasten the tracing paper to
the globe. There are cheap gizmos (pantographs) that let you traces
something at one size, and have it reproduced larger or smaller. 

>> Which reminds me. After seeing a TV item about a scale model of the
>> solar system in some town in the midwest, I got to thinking about
>> trying to draw up a description of Traveller solar systems in such
>> terms. 
>> 
>> For example:
> <snip>
>
> TNE's Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider boht included descriptions of the 
> solar system and movements for use in representing them in a game.  It was a 
> small table with the planets of the solar system, diameter, 1G threshold, 
> and 
> velocity in 30,000km hexes.  Earth is 0.43, 1G at the surface, velocity at 
> 1.787 hexes per 30 minute turn.  Jupiter is 4.76 hexes across (I actually 
> made one out of cardboard cut to the BL/BR hexmap along w/ a printout from 
> an 
> image file I used to have handy), with a 1.4 hex 1G threshold and moves at 
> 0.78 hexes per turn.  The sun, for example, would be 46.5 hexes across, has 
> a 
> 1G threshold out to 99.5 hexes, 2G to 63.5, 3G to 47.6, etc etc.  Was very 
> interesting to put into perspective.  I've always heard the figures, but it 
> doesn't computer till you see something taking up 5 hexes across on the map 
> (and the BL/BR hex maps have big hexes).

I think the Traveller book has some of that. I hadn't thought about how
fast things would be moving, but since that depends on *mass* as well
as distance, I think I'd skip that in the table. After all, the idea is
to get across the relative sizes. Though I'd probably throw in some
comments about how fast various speeds would be. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:05:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Swordsmen of San Francisco

In mail you write:

> Arrrrr, Matey... draw thy cutlass and defend thine parking space for true!
> also, machetes are considered tools rather than weapons in california.
> ObTrav:  what a good way for PCs to get around gestapo-like police on a high
> law world: machetes, chainsaws, sickles are all perfectly legitimate
> tools...especially if the police have never seen them before and don't
> understand to what illegitimate uses they can be put.

"But officer, we're just a gardening crew...."

Heck, consider what zero-g cutting tools *have* to be like... They'll
make nasty weapons too. 

ps. you forgot weed-burners. Those are a legit tool, but would be
*nasty* in a melee (as long as no stray shots hit the propane tank!).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:08:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

In mail you write:

> Leonard, you said:
>
>>Heck, Dig up a copy of H. Beam Piper's "Four Day Planet". Fenris, it's
>>climate and lifeforms are well detailed.
>>Would you believe a world much like earth except that it's days are so
>>long that there are only 4 days a year?
>
> I've recently started developing a sophont species that comes from just
> such a planet. I'll have to see if I can track down a copy of Piper's book
> somewhere.
>
> My concept was that this species evolved on a world that was approaching
> tidal-lock, but hadn't got there yet. Four rotations per orbit seems about
> right for my purposes.
>
> I want to give it an F-type sun, so that the day side of the world is too
> hot for unprotected animals to survive for long, while the night side is
> generally too cold. Thus, many of the life forms, including my sophonts,
> have to travel *all the time* to stay near the terminator (there's no land
> or ice near the poles to live on). In short, they're perpetual nomads. Of
> course they've co-evolved with some domesticated herd species that they use
> as riding mounts -- these mounts would be *very* large, with entire
> households living on their backs. Perhaps these animals might also need to
> be good endurance swimmers -- there should be points in their perpetual
> round-the-world migration where they have to cross ocean straits between
> continents.
>
> I might also give the sophonts and animals the ability to
> hibernate/estivate, perhaps in underground burrows, when they have no
> choice but to remain in one place through the long "day" or "night".
>
> Is this anything like Piper's conception?

Not really. There seems to be very little in the way of land animals.
There is some *very* hardy vegetation. Most life is in the oceans,
where the water buffers the temperature changes.

As I recall, the nighttime lows tend to get near the point where CO2
will freeze out of the atmosphere. Daytime highs are around the boiling
point of water. Only the large oceans prevent the swings from being
worse. 

There's a nice sequence where a ship crashes shortly after sundown.
They have to build some sort of shelter to keep from freezing *and*
find a way to heat it. Some of the local trees provide the heat. Their
branches help reinforce the wet snow walls until they freeze solid. And
the *very* hardwood "cores" of the trees burn nice and hot. Of course,
it took an arc welder to get them lit! :-)

The only city on the planet was built in a valley between a couple of
peaks, and they then blasted the peaks and bulldozed them over to
provide extra insulation. The spaceport is on top of the plateau thus
formed. Ships generall only land in the early morning and late
afternoon. The temps are reasonable, and the storms have either died
down or not yet started.

Yes, you get *nasty* storms around sunset and daybreak. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:18:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)

In mail you write:

>> Virus, whether the unlikely official version or my much stripped down
>> version, will go thru those primitive computers like candy.
>
> <flicking lighter/>
> Are you trolling?  
>
> </flicking lighter>
>
> :-)

Nope. Just stating a fact. My version requires either the presense of
one of those $%^#$ transponders *or* physical contact. And if there is
a transponder it infects that and then spreads via physical contact.

Think of it as a form on nanotech. It'll take over more primitive
circuitry by "tapping" all the I/O lines of a component or circuit
until it can figure out what the component is designed to do (possibly
even feeding in test signals of it's own once it has a rough idea).

Once it knows what a component is for, it builds a replacement, and
uses the rest for raw material. Whenever it has a "block" of circuits
converted (ie it has a bunch on components or circuits where it has all
the I/O lines handled), it'll stop and build a simplified circuit for
just what they were supposed to do (given the way most electronics is
built out of stock "blocks" this will free up a *lot* of silicon, etc).

Once it has a "device" converted this way, it may just have a small
subroutine handling what the device is "supposed" to do, while it
continues to expand down all the connections. 

Eventually, it'll get to the point where it can start dropping
"unnecessary" functions, and start dealing with the crew. Once the crew
is either killed or convinced to co-operate (depending on virus
strain), it can go even farther as it no longer needs to fake the I/O
that kept them happy. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:47:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #543

In mail you write:

>> Given the technology, I figure tele-presence would be the way to go
>> for battle dress.  Nice comfy rooms for the operators with rotating
>> shifts.  That means the suit in the field is combat ready 24 hours
>> a day and isn't limited by human frailties such as biology or fear.
>> 
>> It's just a matter of replacing the trooper with servos, meson/
>> satellite comm gear, and a VR rig.
>
> Two words: light speed lag. 
>
> Imagine trying to drive a car where you see everything 10 minutes
> after it happends and your reaction take 10 minutes to happen.
>
> Remote troopers will tend to walk into trees and such quite a bit.
> And get blown away at the first ambush.

10 minutes is a *long* ways out.

But as a reference point, one of the reasons for the laying of new
under ocean cables, even in this era of commsats is that data links
don't *like* being routed via satellite. One geosynch hop is 23,000
miles *times 4* for lag purposes. Up to the satellite, down to the
ground, the response travels up to the satellite, and then back down to
the ground agian before you get to see it. For a total lag of
23k*4/186k or about one-half second. 

That's enough to cause trouble with data transfer protocols. Forget
trying any sort of virtual presence. 

Telepresence at even Lunar distances is *possible*, but only for simple
operations where no quick decisions are needed. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 10:23:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: PCs' favorite things

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 

> Thanks -- I stand corrected.
> 
> "Schmeissers and Thompsons and Heckler and Kochs
> Lugers and Rugers and quick-shooting Glocks
> Uzis and Ingrams and modern Sterlings
> These are a few of my favorite things.
> 
> "Ma Deuces and Maxims and hefty old Bren guns,
> weigh a bunch more than Uzis and Mac-10 guns,
> M-60s and G-3s and Stoners on slings,
> full-autos are some of my favorite things!

"When the bolt breaks
 When the slide jams
 When my toys are baaaaannnned...
 I just remember my favorite things, and then I don't feel so baaaad"

;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:35:58 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

> There's a nice sequence where a ship crashes shortly after sundown.
> They have to build some sort of shelter to keep from freezing *and*
> find a way to heat it. Some of the local trees provide the heat. Their
> branches help reinforce the wet snow walls until they freeze solid. And
> the *very* hardwood "cores" of the trees burn nice and hot. Of course,
> it took an arc welder to get them lit! :-)

Most of the on world transport is done by submarine, as well as the major
source of 'hard' money - exporting the fat of a marine animal that has the
curious ability of stopping radiation much cheaper than manufactured
shielding.  The core story of the book is that of a labor dispute - the
export of the fat was controlled by the local 'union', and the hunters had
found a better deal.  The shipwreck occurred on a sub that was owned by a
prominent hunter, and the goons put a bomb on it.

douglas
(a H. Beam Piper fan[atic])

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:33:46 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

First, I personally assume drop tank usage as part of megacorp operations.
That is part of how they are more profitable the free traders.  I also
assume they local megacorp offices prebook cargo, pasengers, ferry and feul
services for their big ship to cut turn arround time to a minimum.  I also
assume that there are depos that long jump ships jump to and short haul
ships that break out the cargo from these depos.  

For example:  In this post the example was to high trade worlds 5 hexes
apart.  IMTU there would be a ship or a pair of ships that made this run.
When they broke out in system at their prearranged location there would be a
tank tug to load full new drop tanks while cargo tow ships would play
musical containers and the ferry would dock to transfer passengers.  If the
line was efficent the ferry would transfer passengers to a small
acoomadations base to wait for the next ship in the link to take passengers
further along their route if their final destination was futher along or to
a shuttle to take them to the planet if it were the passengers destination.
In effect a company 'airport' at the 100 dia limit.  Crew could rotate as well.

At two ships per run the temp ship would have to 'stand in' for 4 weeks per
run plus loose two weeks for it's own maintainence and one week to jump to
'get back into rotation'.  That leaves a week of other down time.

This 'system' is modeled after the freight trucking system with long and
short haul drivers and trucks.  The model works.

If you assume a maximun jump of jump 5 for best efficency (only two ship
designs).  You station jump 8 'short haulers' at each jump 5 depo and you
can reach any point along the route.  You need 24 jump 5 and 122 jump 2
ships to give twice weekly service year round to 55 hexes of trade route.
Also for effecency's sake the jump 5 ships would need to be 5 times larger
in cargo capacity that the jump 2.  If you were willing to have three ship
types half the jump 2 ships could be jump 1s but the only saving would be in
the cost of the jump drive itself and you would loose the ability to have
ships fill in for each other to cover excess demand.  Having 20% extra above
the minimums of ships above would also be a good idea to cover 'higher the
expeected' demand and to allow for cycles and exploitation of
'oppertunities'.  Nine depo managers would have access to data no older than
4 days old for 11 systems on a main and no more than one week old for 31
systems.

Such a regular route and schedule could make good use of annual cycles to
boost both regular freight and speculative trade profits.  If the ships were
designed to take interchangable cargo/passenger modules then simple stocking
a few extra passenger/special cargo modules at every other depo would let
managers handle cyclical base trade/passenger surges.  Like moving the
'perishables' cargo modules as 'dead head' or carring less picky cargo, in
the off season to were they will be needed when the 'gorsh berry's' once
every 19 standard months season come due.


At 11:39 AM 5/1/99 +1100, you wrote:
>
>>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
>>
>>A few notable disasters pushes them back into R&D in 1106 (canon, even for 
>>GT, BtC sidebar, pg 6).  "Years" to reverse the severe stock decline and 
>>means no major commercial line adopts them, either.  (same GT source).  14 
>>years of various R&D and improvement on "capacitor engineering" maybe
>they'll 
>>start to come back eventually.  By the time of a GTL13 Third Imperium, why 
>>shouldn't drop tank shipping be the norm?  Just because you don't want it
>to? 
>> When it doesn't have to have any effect on your campaign (unless they 
>>compete regularly w/ the megacorps)?
>
>First of all, *everybody* competes with megacorps, if indirectly.
>
>Let us assume that the jump-4 2000 dton Oberlindes freighter is forced off
>it's normal route by competition from Tukera drop freighters. Would
>Oberlindes put it into Ordinary ? No. They would assign it to another, more
>marginal route. This would then kick the jump-3, 1000 dton ship off it's
>normal route. At that point, the PCs find their Fledgeling line that was
>just getting by linking those small worlds together now has serious
>competition.
>
>Now, a smart Oberlindes manager would be scoping out the 'fallback' routes
>*before* Tukera shifted their ships onto drop tanks.
>
>>> I should be noted that 25% is easily enough to drive non-drop
>>> tank ships out of business.
>>
>>At which point they liquidate their ships and lacking a bank payment, the
>new 
>>owners can undercut the price the drop tank shippers charge, which puts them 
>>out of business before they've really gotten going.  How long will that buy 
>>us, David? :-)
>
>If stock markets are good at one thing, it's adjusting present value to
>deal with expected future shocks.
>
>Now, lets work through the (likely) scenario you put forward.
>
>First of all, a lot of ships are collateral for a lot of loans. Now, if the
>value of this collateral falls, then previously safe loans are suddenly
>looking risky. Banks will be wanting other collateral, or for you to
>refinance.
>

Most loan contracts do not allow the bank to require additional colateral
during the term of a lone.  Collateral value is calculated at the time of
'closing'.  That is the 'closing' of the regociations of the loan contract.

>Secondly, shares in companies like Oberlindes back a lot of other
>enterprises. If your bank's reserves include Oberlindes shares, and those
>shares have just dropped sharply, then you are going to need to get liquid
>again - possibly by calling in loans.
>

It would take a very foolish person to take out a loan on a long term
investment like a ship that allowed the loan holder to 'call the loan' at
will.  Most collateral based loans can only be called early in the case of
defaught by the party the loan was made to.  It is posible to have other
conditions to 'call the loan' though.

Now money raised by the sale of stock is a totally diferent thing.  The
Board of Dirrecters call the shots in this case (within the limits set in
the articals of incorporation and the laws under which it was incorporated.)

>Thirdly, people not in the shipping industry go 'Cool. Freight prices have
>fallen'. Check out the GT:FT sidebar on p29 for what might happen if the
>State suspects that the shipping lines are not allowing the benefits of
>this new technology to flow through the Imperium.
>
>If you 'stretch' the GT:FT p15 distance mods by 25% (accepting that drop
>tanks reduce freight prices by 25%), then you get substantial increases in
>trade (eg trade between 2 WTN 6 worlds 120 parsecs apart becomes 8.5 rather
>than 8). Bad for shipping companies with outdated technology, good for
>everyone else.
>
>Fourthy, you dont have to scrap your internal tankage ships, you could
>refit them for drop tanks. Rip out the tankage, add in pipes, and add more
>cargo. It'll be ugly, they'll need time and money to refit and they will
>probably be less efficient than a custom drop tank ship, but it's doable.
>

You could avoid this by designing the ship so that it's hold can also be
it's fuel tank.  You loose 10% of the volume of the fuel/holds to storing
the colapsable tank componets but if you go to all drop tanks you can leave
these in storage on planet.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:34:07 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

At 01:37 AM 5/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>deadly weapon.  How do you judge intent?  Swords and knifes are 'deadly
>>>weapons', but we keep them in our kitchens without thought.
>>
>>
>>I'm glad to see I'm not the only one.
>>
>>I keep a variety of swords in the kitchen. I've got a gladius for finesse
>>work and a huge tuetonic two-hander for those extra-tough jobs.
>
> I have a heavy grilling spatula my Father-in-Law gave me that my wife
calls 'the axe'; 2.5 feet of high-carbon tool steel (wooden grips held on
with brass fittings) with serrated edges, a back-spike, and beveled front
edge - and a wrist thong! She refuses to let me buy a gun because the
spatula would be much better in close combat....
>

Ouch, BAR-B-QUE-FOO!  Have you earned your a black aprone?

I collect antique cast iron cook ware.  I love to cook!  If trouble were to
occure in my kitchen I'd have a selection of 'blunt objects'  "Hummm, Should
I use my #6 or #8 iron...frying pan" Just to tie in the golf thread!  Grin!

Not really that much of a joke as I have collected the #3-#12 frying pans.
Nothing beats black iron skillets for makeing a pineapple upside down cake
or corn bread.

Accually I'd go with the #8 in the left hand as a small shield and my 10"
chiefs knife in the right (I have two knife blocks including cleavers).  "On
Garde! Sufle, Crepe susete, and other foreign words!"  My SO would probably
go with the marble roling pin and her pepper spray.  Now that is a scrary
thought!

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #560
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 561



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Space port laws and stuff
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav
Re: Different brands 
Re: Fleet Combat
Design Limitations (was Re: solid hydrogen fuel)
Re: Spaceport laws and such
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
3I Politics? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: PCs' favorite things
FW: Galileo Educators' Workshop: Life In The Solar System
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
Re: Super spinal mounts (was Re: Drop Tanks)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Invasion Earth
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
RE: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:34:18 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Space port laws and stuff

At 09:24 AM 5/2/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>"Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com> types:
>>>> Make possession of a deadly weapon de jure proof of intent to use deadly
>>>> force.
>>>Which is, perhaps, the most intrusive idea I have ever ran across.  Define
>>>deadly weapon.  How do you judge intent?  Swords and knifes are 'deadly
>>>weapons', but we keep them in our kitchens without thought.
>>
>>The 'shod foot' has been classified as a deadly weapon.
>>As the old saying goes "I can bust up somebody pretty good with a plowshare."
>>
>>Even with restrictive laws, PCs are pretty darn inventive in creating nasty
>>things out of what's available.
>
>Yup.
>
>"Deadly weapon" is a device primarily designed to inflict injury and/or
>death on someone.  Yes, there are gray areas, but I'm running a game here,
>not changing Canadian law (which, generally, I'm pretty content with).
>
>A 3" paring knife is a kitchen tool. A 3' spatha is a weapon. Somewhere in
>between is a gray line.
>
>A shotgun on a frontier settlement is a hunting tool. A shotgun in the
>middle of Regina's largest city is a weapon. An FGMP-15 is _always_ a
>weapon.
>
>
>

Unless it is a hunting weapon.  Then you should be afraid.  Not of your next
door neightbor's FGMP-15 but of what he uses it to hunt!!!

"Hey, honey, call George would you.  We got a Jaberwocky eating the air car
again."

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:36:38 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:52:57 +0100
> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> 
> I seem to recall a situation with 100D refuelling stations when it
> was calaculated that the cost of a trip to the gas giant was too
> much because of the time taken compared with allowing the merchants
> to save money by not using fuel scoops, purification plants,
> streamlining, 10G structural bracing and CG drives.
> 
> The economic arguments seemed to be in favour of 100D stations with
> non-starships for trips to the gas giants or the planet. With a large
> enough trade volume, you can have several around the Star's 100D limit
> and effectively ignore the jump masking problem.
...
> So drop tanks should be just plugging into an existing orbital
> refuelling infrastructure.

The subject of farpoint (100D) stations came up during the Far Trader
playtest. I did some detailed analysis and concluded that they offer no
significant advantage over a standard highport (at least in GT). 
The difficulty of farpoint stations is that it is rarely possible or
efficient to use the same port inbound and outbound (the exception is ships
that bounce back and forth between two systems only); in most cases, you
will need one station per destination within jump range (probably J-3 or
J-4 => upwards of 30 systems).

A freighter would generally have to download cargo at one station, maneuver
to another station, take on fuel and cargo, and then jump outbound. This
all takes time, and time is money. Moreover, once you add in all the extra
freight handling and lighterage fees, most of the economic advantage
disappears. A highport in orbit around the mainworld has the advantages of
central position and consolidated operations. About the only way to avoid
these difficulties is Lighter-Aboard-SHip (LASH) operations, and even these
are neck-and-neck with conventional shipping in most cases.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:43:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...

On Tue, 4 May 1999 SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> What about some sort of holodeck equivelnt technology, could also be used for 
> training missions.

I'd go for a direct neural interface plug as a more realistic option than
the instantly reshaped force screens cloaked in perfcet holograpghic
shells that the holodeck seems to be (that stuff is just plain magic).

Neither is very Travelleresque though.

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 10:46:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>>   A free trader unable to afford replacement tanks at a port is in the
>> same position as an airliner of a small company whose credit is no good
>> with the company supplying avgas - that is, they're already broke...
> 
>Isn't that the point of designs like the Beowulf?  And the Free Trader 
>concept, in general?

  I'm not going there :)  Keep in mind though, that if a `tank equipped
Trader can't afford replacements* then the lost revenue from not having
the extra internal capacity would have them already be long bankrupt.

 * for sick refs there's "sure, we can let you have these real cheap,
they've been re-conditioned _reel_ good-like..."  Misjumps, anyone?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:49:41 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns, Idiots, and ObTrav

In a message dated 5/3/99 10:00:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
wmacdude@concentric.net writes:

<< Diday happen to take a redneck count in that class? Quite a few in 
northern NV
 in those classes had real low gene counts.
 
  >>
Nah; just some businessmen (one an obnoxious geek w/ a Glock 26; I was 
jealous of the Glock...), some retirees, a couple, and some poor, inner city 
dude w/ a really rickety, cheap .380. The gunsmith really gave it the once 
over, but I think part of it was that they wanted him to buy one of their 
guns... What I found interesting was that I was the only one with a revolver 
in both my CCW class and my armed security class (I work the Jewelry 
convention). Everybody else had Berreta, Ruger or Glock autos...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:51:09 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Different brands 

> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:44:43 -0400
> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
> Subject: Different brands (was: Re: starship prices...)
> 
> At 07:17 PM 5/4/99 +1000, you wrote:
> >For a safety standard, I would go for a large amount of interchangeable
> >parts between in-house models of starships (Ferd Inc.'s FreeTrader,
> >FarTrader, and Farliner), but I assume that they want you to buy them
from
> >their manufacturers, not their competition (Snerd Co.'s FreeTrader slide
> >flange does simply not fit the Ferd model!).  This is just MHO, but I
have
> >read how competitive these companies can be, why give the comp an edge
> >anywhere?  Licenses not withstanding.
> 
> That's actually a very good point and is something I'd like to see more
> attention devoted too (maybe in GT Starships?  Are you listening Chris?:)
)

Always. I'll see whether I can fit something about this in with Maintenance
as an option. Gives the characters with Scrounging or high Engineering
skills (for improvising adaptations) something to do. Apollo 13, anyone?

[Actually, I just did this to my own players: minor part on their jump
drive had to be replaced, jump drive is an obsolete model, only source of
parts onplanet is a wreck 50m under water in the storm belt...]

>  I'd really like to see more variants on the same ship idea in the OTU.

Matter of limited bandwidth -- do you want 3 variations on the 200-dton
free trader, or 3 different types of ships?

> Ideally, I'd like to see Trav sourcebooks borrow something from
Shadowrun,
> where every piece of equipment, especially starships, is made by a
specific
> company, with it's own histories, quirks, followers, etc.  I realize
space
> is limited, but it would be really nice....

That's the theory of having in-depth writeups -- with 3-4 pages per ship,
you have space to go into that much detail. I wouldn't mind seeing notes on
other manufacturers' versions of the same ship type in the "Variants"
portion of the writeup. I'll make a note to that effect when I update the
site next.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:13:53 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fleet Combat

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Fleet Combat
...
>The best thing is that BR is skill based, instead of statistically based, 
>like HG.  YMMV.

  You can always apply character skills when abnormal, per HG2, p. 44.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:14:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Design Limitations (was Re: solid hydrogen fuel)

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: solid hydrogen fuel
...
>The secondary (and minor) usage where you take the tanks *through* a
>jump to refuel afterwards, depend on your ship being able to haul them
>along anyway. So while the cutoff point for practicality will be
>different, there will still be designs that can do it. 

  This brings up a point - a lot of CT ships _can't_ haul drop tanks, or
are in a very dubious rules position with respect to doing so.

  Firstly, a Jump-1 drive that wasn't over-built (i.e., a 300-Dt capacity
drive installed in a 200-Dt hull) _can't_ do a jump with any additional
tankage/stowage at all; this assumes that J#'s truncate after calculations,
but if they don't then transporting small planetoids by tethering them to
Seekers starts to look feasible. Per TCS larger drives may not be retrofitted.

  Secondly, combos over 1000-Dt won't have the minimum bridge requirement
to operate (2% of Dt). If this doesn't apply then it's a further bonus for
the "all tankage is welded drop-tanks" absurdity. FWIW, the Jump Ship in S:9
does appear to have allocated bridge tonnage for its supposed 10kt full load.
Per HG2 this restriction will rarely apply to sub-1000 Dt ships but some sort
of solution needs to be considered. Some precedent allows this but a solution
needs to be considered.

        Steven Hudson

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its Product"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:02:53 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such

> From: SRKOALA@aol.com
 
> << FGMP-15 >>
> 
> What is the above? It sounds like a FBG what are the other details?

We don't make fun of newbies on this list.

Fusion Gun Man-Portable, Tech Level 15.  (My politically correct
Traveller universe calls weapons in this series "Individual-Portable",
so PGIP, FGIP.)

"Sir!  The FGIP-15 is a heavy weight, fuel-cell powered, battle-dress
shoulder fired high energy weapon, equipped with a gravitic pack to
reduce apparent weight to zero at 1G, Sir!"

- -commonly heard at Imperial Marine inspections, in response to the
question posed by SRKOALA@aol.com.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:05:16 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

> From: TravelrTNE@aol.com

> blowing up things from orbit.  But acting like an AV-8b Harrier is not what
> it's designed for.  The Rampart can't hold any ground *at all*.  People don't 
> surrender to space fighters in orbit (or even jet fighters in teh 
> atmosphere), but to people on the ground w/ them, w/ a weapon system in
> their direction.

Like some famous guy said, you're not really holding the ground until
you can leave a nineteen-year-old with a rifle on it.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:36:40 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: 3I Politics? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>Well from my understanding, they would basically be independant, though it's 
>possible favorable terms would be granted.  There's certainly 
>decentrailization and a deliberate method to have even subsidiaries and 
>subdivisions behave as if seperate, for the bottom line, if nothing else.  
>Plus, it's interesting how all the megacorps are so intertwined.  Anyone 
>wanna hazard a guess on the percentage of Imperial business that was through 
>the megacorps?  It smacks of oligarchy, especially when you see the imperial 
>nobility and Emperor's mits everywhere, too (especially w/ Zirunkarish).

  Do you mean oligarchy or oligopoly? It's entirely possible that the Emperor
(if not the Court) don't have anything like a good idea of what's going on,
but it's a bit of stretch to infer that the megacorps really _rule_ the 3I
(rather than merely being the main benefactors of its existence).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:59:23 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: PCs' favorite things

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> "Schmeissers and Thompsons and Heckler and Kochs
> Lugers and Rugers and quick-shooting Glocks
> Uzis and Ingrams and modern Sterlings
> These are a few of my favorite things.
>
> "Ma Deuces and Maxims and hefty old Bren guns,
> weigh a bunch more than Uzis and Mac-10 guns,
> M-60s and G-3s and Stoners on slings,
> full-autos are some of my favorite things!
>
> This could turn into a filk, I'm afraid.

To late it all ready has...

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 14:03:21 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: FW: Galileo Educators' Workshop: Life In The Solar System

Gentlebeings,

Apologies for using up the bandwith but this is
too good to pass up if you're putting together
some world details for Traveller or just have an
interest in RealWorld(tm) solar/extrasolar life.
I just received the following "headsup" from NASA.


>                     Galileo Educators' Workshop
>                     Life In The Solar System
>               http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/ltc/special/galileo/
> 
> 
>  DATE   EVENT                                TIME
> 
>  May 14 "Life in the Solar System"           9:00 am - 12:00 pm PST
> (12:00
>         Educators' Symposium"                pm - 3:00 pm EST)
> 
> The Symposium designed for K-12 educators, is cosponsored by Arizona
> State
> University, NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), and NASA's Ames
> Research
> Center. Our understanding of the Universe and recent discoveries in
> the
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>    * An overview of NASA's search for life in the Solar System
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> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 14:04:14 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

>I have trouble picturing an M-16 with a bayonet holding together. The
>rifle is a *lousy* shape for most moves, and all that plastic is gonna
>come apart. <sigh>

 Actually, they hold up well (at least in training); my DIs said that any man who broke his rifle butt on a target got a 6-pack of soda (big deal in Basic); we tried mightily - no one collected (ever, apparantly).


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 13:22:14 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Super spinal mounts (was Re: Drop Tanks)

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:15:13 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Super spinal mounts (was Re: Drop Tanks)

From: Joseph Kimball <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
>Readers of the Lensmen series by EE Doc Smith will recognize these as
<snip>

It seems somehow appropriate that a reference like this to the Lensman
series was made by someone with the name "Kimball"

Frankie
>>>> (end quoted material)
Thanks.  For some obscure reason, Kimball "Kim" Kinnison was my
favorite character in the series, and one of my favorites in all the
Sci-Fi literature.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:27:58 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>I don't design ships using asteroids for the simple reason that you lose 20% 
>of the volume or the ship breaks up from being too weak.  That means, with a 
>5KT rock, you *only* get 4KT of useable space.  IMNSFBHO, not worth it.

  Oh. I ran the numbers (which you've seen) and shown that this is the most
efficient way of building such a station. Would you care to go into greater
detail about the aesthetic virtue of pouring MCr down a hole in space? :)

>And as far as armour goes, it takes what, Factor 4 weaponry to get by it?  

  ?? It does not make the station immune to any weapon under HG2. However,
since you bring it up, such a station doesn't take non-spinal criticals,
only takes Internal Explosion from a Det-Laser on a roll of "2", and is
highly resistant to all other turret/bay non-meson weapons. I.E., this
non-hardened 1kt service station can probably pound the stuffing out of
any non-warship, let alone make a desirable target for piracy.

...
>military or paramilitary ship can hit it.

  Sure. It's not a battlestation (a ridiculous concept in any case). Is there
a point to this recurring theme of yours? It's a gas (urr, liquid) station.

...
>> >One would presume that these stations would exist to provide *refined*
fuel.  
>> >Class C or worse starports don't have refined fuel by their very
definition.  
>> >I fall back on my earlier 'rule of thumb' in that if there's no refined
fuel 
>> >availiable, there are no fueling stations present in the system.
>> 
>>   None at the best starport. Other facilities not available to common traffic
>> may have refined L-Hyd available, as may other ships currently in the system.
>
>I still don't see it.

  See what? Refined fuel can exist in systems without A/B starports.

...
>>   i) I already paid for that. I don't suppose you checked the rules?
>
>You're telling me the ship *and* the station is cheaper than just the ship by 
>itself.  Ain't happening in the real world.

  Dare I ask why you specify the use of HG2 rules and then refuse to accept
the results? If the rules gore any sacred cows from YTU, fine, but you did
set this up as an OTU discussion, IIRC.

>>  ii) The station portion of the system is still vastly cheaper; review the
>> relevant post if necessary.
>
>But you're not counting the whole *system*, you're just counting the ships it 
>serves.  Ship + fuel station cost does *NOT* equal the cost of the ship itself.

  Well, I am making the perhaps unreasonable assumption that such a service
station is a business designed to support more than a single ship. We could
even assume that such a small (1kt main hull) station at a world of moderate
importance off the main routes (200 meg @ TL A?) might deal with twenty small
(<1000 Dt) starships each week?

  You may also be missing the fact that an external tankage design is cheaper
per unit capability - thus the 400 Dt normal trader could be replaced by (ForEx)
a 300 Dt Munchkin-class external tankage trader.

  Have you considered posting your most efficient system designs that prove that
the system is inferior to standard internal tankage haulage?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:05:54 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 99-05-03 23:54:21 EDT, you write:
>
><< I mean, all that CT needed was a task system, a ship combat system where
> the PC's had an input (unlike HG, which is a fantastic but emotionally
> detached system), and  - for my money - a better personal combat system.
> You *nearly* get all of this with MT. >>
>How does T4 stack up?


About 5"...

Seriously -



		MT		T4
Tasks		Elegant		Faster, less thought needed
Starship cbt	Revised HG	Published system broken (download RPSCS v0.9)
Personal Cbt	Nice interupts	Most playable Traveller Personal combat system

YMMV

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:27:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Invasion Earth

Someone asked what is Invasion:Earth -

It was a boxed game about the conquest of Terra by the Imperium at the end
of the Solomani Rim War, published by GDW. Can't say anymore as I don't
have it.

or

It was a BBC TV Sci-Fi series.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:12:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> Bruce Alan Macintosh's Military Combat System fills in the gap
>for starship combat, if one is willing to give credit for systems not
>published by the game publishers.

The RPSCS is better if you don't like indepth systems.

>for the gearheads among us.  I would ignore most of the background and
>adventure material published by Imperium Games for T4 (however, I hear
>that the BITS material for T4 is first-rate).  Imperium Games tended to
>commission works by writers who paid little or no attention to
>pre-existing canon.  :-P

Two points -

1) BITS 101 Books are usable with CT/MT/T4 and TNE. They've been kept
generic deliberately. GT can be used too, but you need one of the task
system conversion systems. They're not T4 specific.
Admittedly, TNE is harder to use with 101 Lifeforms and 101 Travellers as
they have T4 compatible stats.


2) The BITS/CORE published T4 material is Milieu 0 (get M0 Campaign),
Pocket Empires, The Long Way Home and Gateway. The Annililik Run is nothing
like the original CORE proposal, having become AD&D in space. Half the
first Aliens Book (unpublished) was drafted, as was the Dag sourcebook.



>Good game system for personal-level interactions; needs a grafted-on
>ship combat system; excellent equipment design system; lousy background
>support (with a couple of exceptions [such as _Pocket Empires_ and
>_Imperial Squadrons_]).

CSC and EA are good sourcebooks for guns and equipment.

Cheers,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:52:09 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>  I haven't tried BITS directly yet, but I can imagine what Leisure Games
>has to charge for shipping to the colonies. SJG's 40% S&H to Canada was
>sufficiently hilarious that I decided to put off the purchase indefinitely.

Leisure usually charge 50% IIRC (Bill Rutherford probably has better info
than me as he's used them to mail to the US). If ordering from BITS there
are two things you need to consider - (1) currency conversion charges and
(2) ordering in bulk. Bulk orders are much more appreciated.

Hmm 5 books (I know you have 2!) x $8 = 40 dollars so $56 dollars total
which is 36 GBP which is 7 / book. That's 2 GBP/book over UK prices!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:30:03 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

At 11:36 AM 5/4/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:52:57 +0100
>> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>> Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
>> 
>> I seem to recall a situation with 100D refuelling stations when it
>> was calaculated that the cost of a trip to the gas giant was too
>> much because of the time taken compared with allowing the merchants
>> to save money by not using fuel scoops, purification plants,
>> streamlining, 10G structural bracing and CG drives.
>> 
>> The economic arguments seemed to be in favour of 100D stations with
>> non-starships for trips to the gas giants or the planet. With a large
>> enough trade volume, you can have several around the Star's 100D limit
>> and effectively ignore the jump masking problem.
>...
>> So drop tanks should be just plugging into an existing orbital
>> refuelling infrastructure.
>
>The subject of farpoint (100D) stations came up during the Far Trader
>playtest. I did some detailed analysis and concluded that they offer no
>significant advantage over a standard highport (at least in GT). 
>The difficulty of farpoint stations is that it is rarely possible or
>efficient to use the same port inbound and outbound (the exception is ships
>that bounce back and forth between two systems only); in most cases, you
>will need one station per destination within jump range (probably J-3 or
>J-4 => upwards of 30 systems).
>
>A freighter would generally have to download cargo at one station, maneuver
>to another station, take on fuel and cargo, and then jump outbound. This
>all takes time, and time is money. Moreover, once you add in all the extra
>freight handling and lighterage fees, most of the economic advantage
>disappears. A highport in orbit around the mainworld has the advantages of
>central position and consolidated operations. About the only way to avoid
>these difficulties is Lighter-Aboard-SHip (LASH) operations, and even these
>are neck-and-neck with conventional shipping in most cases.
>
>

Why not put the far point station out of the plane of the milkyway?  That
way none of them would be occluded from each other.  Say directly up from
the star at 100 stellar diameters.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:45:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: RE: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

> From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
> Subject: RE: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
> 
> On Monday, 03 May 1999 22:23, Mark Cook [SMTP:markc@peak.org] wrote:
> > Um... Glenn?  Glock makes the Glock 18, a select-fire 9mm machine pistol,
> 
> Also, they make a drop in selector switch that will fit most any Glock
> pistol - but it isn't available in the US.

Actually, they are available in the U.S., but only to LEOs and the
military (since they're post-May '86 devices).  The're manufactured
by Revelation Arms (Roger Loock & Co.) right here in Oregon, just outside
Portland.  Roger and the gang will be at our big spring full-auto shoot
(the biggest one west of the Mississippi) weekend after next!

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #561
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 562



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
RE: starship prices
RE: hair spray
Re: Four Day Planet
Favorite SF Characters
Re: Invasion Earth
I *do* have...
Re: The Swordsmen of San Francisco
Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)
RE: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Economics of BITS Books
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
RE: hair spray
Re: Spaceport laws and such
Re: Different brands 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? (was  Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Four Day Planet
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:47:57 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>>   You're radically over-estimating the cost of a bare-bones installations
>> (which is, after all, what's needed). OTOH, I suspect that you're much
>> closer wrt the military disadvantages of such a system.
>
>IMO that's very debatable (not that I think "jump stations" are anything but 
>a strawman, really).   They would be very vulnerable.  The one thing we 
>*know* is that fixed installations are undefendable and if anything like a 

  You seem to be having a little trouble here. Once their vulnerability is
accepted* then only their commercial efficiency is of interest. Have you done
any work on how much these "strawman" stations would cost (I told the piggies
to build from brick, but would they listen??) or read the posts that laid out
those numbers for you?

 * it does behoove the Imperium to discourage this system in the frontiermost
sub-sectors, not that regular shipping would be able to function either in a
major war; it could make a difference in a protracted or lower-intensity war.

  Or are you saying that it's their stipulated military disadvantages that are
"very debatable"? :>

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:55:41 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: starship prices

Walter Smith writes:
"One question: how modular are starship components? When that
annual maintenance comes around, are things getting repaired or
replaced**?"

	I figure that most parts are being cleaned, recalibrated,
	etc., while some are being replaced outright. The ones 
	that are replaced are probably the same each year (think
	oil filter, spark plugs, etc.).

"With 2% of purchase price paid every year for maintenance, in
addition to any payments for anything actually worn out or 
damaged between annual maintenance stops, it may be that your 
40 year old free trader has a 5 year old sensor array, an 8 year 
old laser turret mechanism, a 2 year old fusion containment shell, 
etc., etc., etc..."

	Is 2% the figure for GT? IIRC in CT annual maintainance
	costs 0.1% of the full value of the vessel. IMTU this does
	not ever include major (expensive) components (see above).

"Older ships should be incrementally harder to maintain and 
repair, but I think it should hit a limit at some age, to 
represent a ship that is less and less original/outdated 
equipment and more and more modern, maintainable subsystems. 
Sure, it would be tough to find circuit boards for a MeriTech 
Wideband Scanner nowadays, but that system was installed in the _
Faraway Lady_ back in 1076 - we ripped that out and put in a nice InterComp
23XR years ago..."

	I will use the half-life approach to get an idea of the 
	value of a vessel that has not made any major replacements.
	This value can then be tweeked for the computer-2 bis
	upgrade 10 years ago and the new thrusters last year.

<snipped>


peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:57:22 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: hair spray

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
<snipped>
"What was PC #1 hit with?  Hair spray.  (I was hit in the eyes 
with hair spray by accident once as a child, and have since had 
a very healthy respect for it.)"

	For bonus points add a Bic lighter.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:44:29 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

I said,

><< I've recently started developing a sophont species that comes from just
> such a planet. I'll have to see if I can track down a copy of Piper's book
> somewhere.
> My concept was that this species evolved on a world that was approaching
> tidal-lock, but hadn't got there yet. Four rotations per orbit seems about
> right for my purposes. [snip]

Stephen replies,

>What TL is the race? if its ~8 or more they could build under water colonies
>(an I idea that I hope Traveller covers well)

Eventually, sure. But they've *evolved* on this planet, so would have to
develop technology "on the run", as it were; they never stop migrating,
'round and 'round their world, never resting except to take shelter in
underground burrows/caves/etc. Which would mean that they'd have to develop
highly portable technology -- anything too big to carry along, or keep
underground, would be hard for them to invent.

I figure they're carnivores, or hunter/gatherer/herder omnivores, thus
agriculture isn't something they're interested in. So they don't need to
develop irrigation, which was one of the major factors in the rise of human
civilization. Their progress would be very different from ours. Most likely
they never develop industrial technology on their own, but acquire it
through contact with a star-faring alien civilization.

 + GMG +

      _Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_,
                 Edited by David Hartwell and Glenn Grant
                     *** Come to our launch party!***
    Toronto: Friday, 7 May, 7:00pm, The Arts & Letters Club, 14 Elm St.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:05:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Favorite SF Characters

> From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
> Re: Super spinal mounts (was Re: Drop Tanks)

> Thanks.  For some obscure reason, Kimball "Kim" Kinnison was my
> favorite character in the series, and one of my favorites in all the
> Sci-Fi literature.

I know what you mean.  I'm a big fan of Jason Din Alt (sp?) from the 
Deathworld Trilogy, myself.  Can't imagine why.

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:08:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> Subject: Invasion Earth
> 
> Someone asked what is Invasion:Earth -
> 
> It was a boxed game about the conquest of Terra by the Imperium at the end
> of the Solomani Rim War, published by GDW. Can't say anymore as I don't
> have it.
> 
> or
> 
> It was a BBC TV Sci-Fi series.

Silly me, I thought it was a decology of novels by L. Ron Hubbard.  I 
like the first two choices better, though.  ;)

Later,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:52:25 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: I *do* have...

> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

> >I've heard that household melee weapons should be things that you're
> >used to having in your hand anyway.  So a broom (which is just a bo
> >stick with bristles on one end) is good household weapon (for the person
> >who does the sweeping), as is a telephone.  I would say that I'm very
> >very used to having a pen in my hand, but except for the steel Cross
> >pen, a pen would only be effective if I could stick it in my opponent's
> >eye.
> 
> I'm not convinced by the broom - too big for use indoors, especially
> the ones with the extra wide heads.

I just did a linked series of bo-stick techniques with my regular house
broom (which doesn't have a push-broom head) in my dining room and
kitchen.  I got full extension and good speed.  It's a little more
challenging in the hallway, where your range of motion is really
limited.  My broom is about five feet long.
 
> Besides, having carpets, we've got a vacuum cleaner at home, which is far too > unwieldy.

I have hardwood floors -- just like in Japan.  Hmm...  The dust-buster
is not a good weapon, but you might be able to bluff your way out of an
alien abduction with one.  
 
> Just like using a computer keyboard or a phone: either I get my feet
> caught in the wires or the guy retreats beyong the range of the
> extension cable.

I agree, the keyboard won't do at all, although one might use the mouse
cable as a garrot.  The telephone handset just needs to be unjacked from
the phone to be a nasty little club (the curly cable won't make a good
garrot).  The cell phone's antenna stub would cause a nasty wound to
eye, throat, or solar plexus.  

In Shibumi, by Trevanian (who wrote The Eiger Sanction), there is a
discussion of a Japanese martial art that uses ordinary household
objects and a thorough understanding of the nervous and circulatory
systems.  For example, a terrorist on an airplane is taken out with a
paper cup.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 16:33:40 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: The Swordsmen of San Francisco

At 09:05 AM 5/4/99 -0800, you wrote:
>ps. you forgot weed-burners. Those are a legit tool, but would be
>*nasty* in a melee (as long as no stray shots hit the propane tank!).

I thought that was a weapon available in Traveller (T4).  Am I confusing it
with some other RPG?  I know I've seen it in that setting...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 13:35:05 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)

Phil Kitching wrote:
> 

> I'm not convinced by the broom - too big for use indoors, especially
> the ones with the extra wide heads.
> 
> Besides, having carpets, we've got a vacuum cleaner at home, which is
> far too unwieldy.

Our vaccuum cleaners work perfectly well as self-defense weapons...what,
your vaccuum cleaners don't have four legs?? ;-)

Actually that brings to mind another very good defense weapon, leash-fu:
hold up the two unattached leashes as 180 aggregate pounds of very
enthusiastic dogs charge the intruder...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:36:48 -0500 
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

On Tuesday, 04 May 1999 14:45, Mark Cook [SMTP:markc@peak.org] wrote:
> > From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
> > Also, they make a drop in selector switch that will fit most any Glock
> > pistol - but it isn't available in the US.
> 
> Actually, they are available in the U.S., but only to LEOs and the
> military (since they're post-May '86 devices).  The're manufactured
> by Revelation Arms (Roger Loock & Co.) right here in Oregon, just
> outside
> Portland.  Roger and the gang will be at our big spring full-auto shoot
> (the biggest one west of the Mississippi) weekend after next!


I stand corrected.  I, not being one of those privileged to own post-86
Class 3 stuff, had not researched them that far.

Still, really neat!

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 13:37:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Economics of BITS Books

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>Leisure usually charge 50% IIRC /...

  <koff>  Not a pleasant alternative for those in the Great White North...

>than me as he's used them to mail to the US). If ordering from BITS there
>are two things you need to consider - (1) currency conversion charges and
>(2) ordering in bulk. Bulk orders are much more appreciated.
>
>Hmm 5 books (I know you have 2!) x $8 = 40 dollars so $56 dollars total
>which is 36 GBP which is 7 / book. That's 2 GBP/book over UK prices!

  Ideally then, we need to organize the second annual South-Western B.C.
mass mail-order, and this time patronize BITS (although last years choice
of "Letter of Marque" was well-received)? Would an order for twenty books
or so help rationalize the S&H charges?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:38:41 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

>Like some famous guy said, you're not really holding the ground until
>you can leave a nineteen-year-old with a rifle on it.

My former room-dog Black Ice put it this way,
'Until you're on it, you don't own it.'


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:40:37 -0500 
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: hair spray

On Tuesday, 04 May 1999 14:57, Ian Ferguson [SMTP:ian@vax2.concordia.ca]
wrote:
> Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> <snipped>
> "What was PC #1 hit with?  Hair spray.  (I was hit in the eyes 
> with hair spray by accident once as a child, and have since had 
> a very healthy respect for it.)"
> 
> 	For bonus points add a Bic lighter.
> 
> Peez

Nasty - and dangerous to the user.  Seems for a while in NYC people were
carrying cans of oven cleaner around for use  as defense against muggers,
etc, since there was no law against it.  Over cleaner isn't considered a
weapon , but can be quite effective at blinding (permanently) an attacker.

Improvised weapons can be *really* nasty.

ObTrav:  Mercenary ticket to subjugate lower tech planet - but the people
there are extremely cleaver.  Lots of potential in turning 'trash' into
weapons against the Merc PCs.


 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 16:42:40 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Spaceport laws and such

At 11:02 AM 5/4/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: SRKOALA@aol.com
> 
>> << FGMP-15 >>
>> 
>> What is the above? It sounds like a FBG what are the other details?
>
>We don't make fun of newbies on this list.
>
>Fusion Gun Man-Portable, Tech Level 15.  (My politically correct
>Traveller universe calls weapons in this series "Individual-Portable",
>so PGIP, FGIP.)
>
>"Sir!  The FGIP-15 is a heavy weight, fuel-cell powered, battle-dress
>shoulder fired high energy weapon, equipped with a gravitic pack to
>reduce apparent weight to zero at 1G, Sir!"

A little more than that, actually, since you want to feel a bit of a heft
to the weapon (helps with recoil, too)...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 16:41:08 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Different brands 

At 11:51 AM 5/4/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Matter of limited bandwidth -- do you want 3 variations on the 200-dton
>free trader, or 3 different types of ships?
Depends on the ship.  I'd like to see 2-3 far traders and mercenary
cruisers (i.i.e.. PC Ships).  Just one battleship will do. (Makes sense
too, since the IN is probably standardized to one type of ship per class...)

>
>> Ideally, I'd like to see Trav sourcebooks borrow something from
>Shadowrun,
>> where every piece of equipment, especially starships, is made by a
>specific
>> company, with it's own histories, quirks, followers, etc.  I realize
>space
>> is limited, but it would be really nice....
>
>That's the theory of having in-depth writeups -- with 3-4 pages per ship,
>you have space to go into that much detail. I wouldn't mind seeing notes on
>other manufacturers' versions of the same ship type in the "Variants"
>portion of the writeup. I'll make a note to that effect when I update the
>site next.

Cool.  That's exactly the sort of thing I want to see.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 16:43:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >And as far as armour goes, it takes what, Factor 4 weaponry to get by it?  
> 
>   ?? It does not make the station immune to any weapon under HG2. However,
> since you bring it up, such a station doesn't take non-spinal criticals,
> only takes Internal Explosion from a Det-Laser on a roll of "2", and is
> highly resistant to all other turret/bay non-meson weapons. I.E., this
> non-hardened 1kt service station can probably pound the stuffing out of
> any non-warship, let alone make a desirable target for piracy.

Where are det-lasers mentioned in HG?  AFAICT, det-lasers are a T4 phenomenon.

> 
> ...
> >military or paramilitary ship can hit it.
> 
>   Sure. It's not a battlestation (a ridiculous concept in any case). Is there
> a point to this recurring theme of yours? It's a gas (urr, liquid) station.

Only that you're continually implying that these fuel stations are relatively 
invulnerable to anything.  'Tain't so, Johny...

> >>   i) I already paid for that. I don't suppose you checked the rules?
> >
> >You're telling me the ship *and* the station is cheaper than just the ship by 
> >itself.  Ain't happening in the real world.
> 
>   Dare I ask why you specify the use of HG2 rules and then refuse to accept
> the results? If the rules gore any sacred cows from YTU, fine, but you did
> set this up as an OTU discussion, IIRC.

You mean to tell me you built two identical starships, with the jump fuel 
tankage converted to cargo space on one of them, *PLUS* a fueling station for 
the cost of the starship with normal internal fuel tankage???  SHOW ME THE 
NUMBERS.  *HOW* are you getting this station built *for free*?
 
> >>  ii) The station portion of the system is still vastly cheaper; review the
> >> relevant post if necessary.
> >
> >But you're not counting the whole *system*, you're just counting the ships it 
> >serves.  Ship + fuel station cost does *NOT* equal the cost of the ship itself.
> 
>   Well, I am making the perhaps unreasonable assumption that such a service
> station is a business designed to support more than a single ship. We could
> even assume that such a small (1kt main hull) station at a world of moderate
> importance off the main routes (200 meg @ TL A?) might deal with twenty small
> (<1000 Dt) starships each week?

Which means you're making somebody *else* pay for it.
 
>   You may also be missing the fact that an external tankage design is cheaper
> per unit capability - thus the 400 Dt normal trader could be replaced by (ForEx)
> a 300 Dt Munchkin-class external tankage trader.

The *point* of munchkinizing a ship was to allow increased cargo capacity.  If 
you're just eliminating the tankage, you're *really* not gaining an advantage. 
 You're still shipping the same amount of cargo.  The point was to be able to 
ship *MORE* cargo.  More cargo means you make more money.  *MY* calculations 
are based on that premise.  Evidently, yours are *not*.
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 16:52:17 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? (was  Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

> >>So how is a third party ship going to refuel from a fueling point
> >>that's been destroyed?
> 
> It doesn't, but it's not supposed to. I think that's the point. Not every
> vessel in the entire universe is going to rely on drop tanks, just the ones
> where it makes a lot of economic sense to do so.

His post implied that those third party ships could in fact refuel from a 
destroyed station.
 
> Perhaps I am not completely in tune with this thread since I've skimmed
> most of it, but it seems to me that a fuel station's military vulnerability
> wouldn't be a big factor when considering whether they exist or not for
> merchantile and/or civilian purposes.

Depends on their area.  If you get unwashed yoyos coming in every couple of 
years to shoot up the place, odds are, you *won't* have fuel stations around.
 
> Gasoline stations are big, sitting targets which explode quite nicely, yet
> they are quite numerous in the real world.

They also don't cost several million dollars to construct, and a minimum of a 
*week* to get to from the next station, and a couple of *YEARS* or so to go 
between the furthest gas stations.
 
> In a war, the infrastructure's going to get trashed no matter what scheme
> you use.

True.  But a sector that's used to using fueling stations is going to take longer to rebuild than one that isn't.  Shipping went down 90% in the core sectors of the Imperium during the Rebellion by 1118, and by 1130, *still* haddn't recovered.  In Reavers' Deep, interstellar shipping went down, but nowhere *near* that figure.

Keven


tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 14:01:56 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Mon, 03 May 1999 17:03:35 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>>But you really aren't deliberately adding further capablities.

>  External folding fuel tanks that take up negligible internal volume aren't
>new? And that do so fast enough to be stowed between emptying and Jump?

The follow from the description and the technology level of
the Imperium.  You don't need to add anything new to justify
them (you do need to add something to say they can't exist).

>>They follow from the descriptions as presented.  IMO, it is far
>>better for GT to avoid "reintroducing them".  That way all you
>>have to do is either ignore the TNS entry or accept that, for
>>some reason  they turned out to be impractical.  The latter

>  Agreed. We've both been on that side of that question since the start.
>But you're still wrong about the implications of fuel stations for the
>effectiveness of an anti-commerce guerre de course doctrine. :)

Well, at least you are half right :-).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 14:11:54 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

Tue, 4 May 1999 11:15:20 +0100, "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>

I had been thinking about this and outlined vague a short discussion of the
issue along the lines of making it a strictly optional rule
where the GM is presented with options ranging from from not
having drop tanks, to having them but attaching various restrictions,
to having them and all their consquences (jump staions, collapable
tanks, using jump fuel for weapons, etc.) which I was going
to give to whoever wrote Starships.  However, Chris Thrash
has decided to handle the stituation himself.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 17:19:02 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

>
>
>  My concept was that this species evolved on a world that was approaching
>  tidal-lock, but hadn't got there yet. Four rotations per orbit seems about
>  right for my purposes.
>
>  I want to give it an F-type sun, so that the day side of the world is too
>  hot for unprotected animals to survive for long, while the night side is
>  generally too cold. Thus, many of the life forms, including my sophonts,
>  have to travel *all the time* to stay near the terminator (there's no land
>  or ice near the poles to live on).

I suppose the key word there is 'many'.  It's one thing to run from the heat,
but there's got to be vegetation where you're running to (or there's nothing to
eat).  Since you're moving towards the cold, the vegetation is essentially at
the spring time and not ready to harvest.  It might be more wise to run from the
cold and thus keep you perpetually in the harvest time winter (assuming all the
plants don't burn up).  Also concider the weather effects, particularly the
water cycle, as the day cycle rolls through.  Are there immense storms in the
summer?  Or does all the water evaporate?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 14:32:40 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

[A few general comments to a reasonable analysis (except a few
parts I didn't follow :-)...)

Tue, 4 May 1999 17:33:46 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>

>First, I personally assume drop tank usage as part of megacorp operations.

I would say that it wouldn't be long for a corporation to realize
they can make money selling fuel to independants.  Also, small
companies with a few ships will form alliances to share facilities
and then sell to other independants to (at first) defray costs
and then (as time goes by) to gain profit.  Of course the
megacorps handle most of the traffic and set the economics.

>That is part of how they are more profitable the free traders.  I also
>assume they local megacorp offices prebook cargo, pasengers, ferry and feul
>services for their big ship to cut turn arround time to a minimum.

Prebooking is in Far Trader.  Tramps take what is left over.
Quite reasonable.

>  I also
>assume that there are depos that long jump ships jump to and short haul
>ships that break out the cargo from these depos.
>
>For example:  In this post the example was to high trade worlds 5 hexes
>apart.  IMTU there would be a ship or a pair of ships that made this run.
>When they broke out in system at their prearranged location there would be a
>tank tug to load full new drop tanks while cargo tow ships would play
>musical containers and the ferry would dock to transfer passengers.  If the
>line was efficent the ferry would transfer passengers to a small
>acoomadations base to wait for the next ship in the link to take passengers
>further along their route if their final destination was futher along or to
>a shuttle to take them to the planet if it were the passengers destination.
>In effect a company 'airport' at the 100 dia limit.  Crew could rotate as
>well.

A drop tank ship coming out of jump isn't in an different postion,
regarding needed to drop cargo their vs going to the port, than
other ships.  However, this sort of arrangement is generally
possible.  (Again, Far Trader mentions it, but I don't remember
what conclusion it came to, I think "it depends" and it gave
costs for various methods).

>At two ships per run the temp ship would have to 'stand in' for 4 weeks per
>run plus loose two weeks for it's own maintainence and one week to jump to
>'get back into rotation'.  That leaves a week of other down time.

I didn't fully understand this part....
>
>This 'system' is modeled after the freight trucking system with long and
>short haul drivers and trucks.  The model works.
>
>If you assume a maximun jump of jump 5 for best efficency (only two ship
>designs).  You station jump 8 'short haulers' at each jump 5 depo and you
>can reach any point along the route.

Now I know you don't mean a ship that can do jump-8 :-)

> You need 24 jump 5 and 122 jump 2
>ships to give twice weekly service year round to 55 hexes of trade route.
>Also for effecency's sake the jump 5 ships would need to be 5 times larger
>in cargo capacity that the jump 2.

I'm not sure what you mean here either.  A jump-5 ship with the same
cargo makes 2.5 the revenue of a jump-2 ship.  I think you are talking
about using j-5 ships to fill in on j-2 routes so you don't need
a second ship type.  I think in that decisions you just have to
figure whether the cost of wasted range is worth not builing a
second ship.  (Remember, the "j-2" world will only tranship cargo
if it is cheaper than just sending it direct to the destination,
my guess is it will depend on the realtive bilateral trade numbers).
In the end, I think j-2 routes will have their own ships with j-5
or j-6 ships being diverted to them for temporary surpluses (though
a lot of that will be handled by tramps, since that is what they
exist for).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #562
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 563



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Telepresence
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: I *do* have...
re: Economics of BITS Books
Re: Invasion Earth
Locks (was:  Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration"
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Plastic Rifle
Re: Plastic Rifle
Re: Locks (was: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...) 
Re: Plastic Rifle
CT Deneb Data
Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two) 
Re: A-10 versus MBT? 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: A-10 versus MBT? 
Re: 3I Politics? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 17:32:45 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

Someone else wrote:
> << >Imagine trying to drive a car where you see everything 10 minutes
>  >after it happends and your reaction take 10 minutes to happen.
>  >
>  >Remote troopers will tend to walk into trees and such quite a bit.
>  >And get blown away at the first ambush. >>
> 
> That's why you give the trooper somesort of AI, so that the robotic legion
> can be commanded by just a few people, far away from the front.

Oh, right, I should have thought of that. *smacks head*

You are rapidly moving away from the "men in suits of armour"
vision of battledress. As others have pointed out, what you have
is an army of robots, in which case you might as well make them 
robot-driven grav tanks and dispense with silly things like legs 
altogether.

Not that robots are a bad idea, but you've tweaked the concept of 
battledress one thing at a time into something that's not battledress.

Someone else wrote:
> Better yet, how about 100-150 km behind the FEBA in a
> command vehicle?  Effective lag at that distance?  Zero.
> I don't have FF&S, how small can you make a meson comm
> rig.  [Including the electronics/crypto-gear to tell the
> command vehicle how to update the unit's realtime location
> and thus maintain constant communication.]

Hm, well...

 - If I was a telepresence operator, I wouldn't want to be 
   100 km away. I'd want to be 100,000 km away. You can lob 
   a shell 100 km - well, before all the artillery operators
   jump all over me, suffice it to say that that's way too close
   to the battlefield for my tastes. TP ops would have to be
   pretty heavily defended that close to the battlefield, making
   for questionable gain over just sticking the extra troopers
   out there on the front with their TP pals right beside them.

 - Ok, meson comms can't be jammed (the major problem with TP)
   but it's a line of sight/point-to-point comm mechanism.
   If the trooper trips and you lose tracking on his head, poof, connection
   broken and one trooper lost to an enemy root/stone/stair.
   Not to mention that by normal Trav tech progressions the trooper
   would be TL 16+, where you'd probably already have some better 
   options than remote controlled Tom Servos.

Overall, yes, you can do TP over big distances, and maybe you could do 
TP in combat situations, but IMO the amount of time and trouble
spent developing such an extremely complicated system would be better spent
doing something more useful, like building a massive fleet of dreadnaughts
to scare the living shit out of your enemy.

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:21:59 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

In a message dated 5/4/99 12:28:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SRKOALA@aol.com 
writes:

<< 
 << I mean, all that CT needed was a task system, a ship combat system where
  the PC's had an input (unlike HG, which is a fantastic but emotionally
  detached system), and  - for my money - a better personal combat system.
  You *nearly* get all of this with MT. >>
 
 How does T4 stack up?
 -Stephen
  >>

	I thought that T4 was heart-breakingly close to getting it right.   
The edition, however was sloppy and they still didn't integrate the starship 
combat and personal combat systems into a seamless whole.    Nevertheless, I 
GM'ed CT, MT and T4 and they all had the same "feel"   to me and my various 
players.   One CT player who had missed MT, remarked that T4 felt like 
Traveller to me.   I must admit that my biggest gripe with CT was the lack of 
a vehicle combat system.   Too many times we would have fighters or tanks 
closing in on the escaping PC's as they boarded their Gcarrier and we 
couldn't resolve what the PC RAM grenedes would do to the tanks or the tanks' 
guns would do to the G carrier.  T4 did almost the same thing in the main 
book, leaving it to the CSC to clean up vehicles.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 16:40:52 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: I *do* have...

 
>In Shibumi, by Trevanian (who wrote The Eiger Sanction), there is a
>discussion of a Japanese martial art that uses ordinary household
>objects and a thorough understanding of the nervous and circulatory
>systems.  For example, a terrorist on an airplane is taken out with a
>paper cup.  
>
>--Glenn

 Actually, there is a mainland style called Moo Gi Gong that emphasizes the use of everyday items as weapons; pens, cups, even paperclips and lamps!


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:35:41 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Economics of BITS Books

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>  Ideally then, we need to organize the second annual South-Western B.C.
>mass mail-order, and this time patronize BITS (although last years choice
>of "Letter of Marque" was well-received)? Would an order for twenty books
>or so help rationalize the S&H charges?

Probably - have sent Andy a copy of the email to review cost - would this
be shipping to a single location?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:28:05
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

At 03:08 PM 5/4/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>

>> Someone asked what is Invasion:Earth -

>Silly me, I thought it was a decology of novels by L. Ron Hubbard.  I 
>like the first two choices better, though.  ;)

That was _Battlefield: Earth_, and if it was written by the very dead L.
Ron Hubbard, I'm a Republican canidate for President.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 17:01:53 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Locks (was:  Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...)

>>>> (begin quoted material)
The fact that everyone assumes every farmhouse has at least one 
shotgun in it does keep most evil doers from just walking up and
kicking in 
the door.

Marc Miller
>>>> (end quoted material)
In the same vein, most locks and other security devices (both physical
and software) are designed to keep the honest honest, and they strongly
discourage the "opportunity" type criminals.  They barely slow down
someone determined to get into what you have secured.  Example:  some
kids wandered through my neighborhood a few weeks ago, stole a truck
that had the doors unlocked and the keys in the ignition, and proceeded
to vandalize a nearby church.  Luckily for the owner, the truck was
almost out of gas, and the kids only got a few miles away.  The owner
got back the truck, and has not left the keys in the ignition again. 
They didn't bother any other vehicles, just the easy one.

ObTrav:  This is absolutely relevant to most PCs since they tend to be
the "determined" type.  Since hijacking tends to be a genuine risk with
a starship, the security procedures can make a huge differenece in the
outcome of the voyage.  You can't depend on
mechanical/electronic/software locks to keep people out exclusively. 
What you can do is use them to give you time to respond to a hijack
attempt in a non-panic fashion (concern and urgency yes, panic no).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 16:17:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>>  External folding fuel tanks that take up negligible internal volume aren't
>>new? And that do so fast enough to be stowed between emptying and Jump?
>
>The follow from the description and the technology level of
>the Imperium.  You don't need to add anything new to justify
>them (you do need to add something to say they can't exist).

  Under CT (in TCS) you can use rigid tankage for Jump, but _not_ collapsible
tankage. Where is everyone else (including the authors?) missing the clear
implication that the use of collapsible tankage for Jump "follows"?

  ISTR that the flexible piping thread a couple months ago may have touched
on problems with non-rigid fluid handling; it may be that the authors did
decide that those issues decided the restriction to rigid tankage for them.
I believe that such a stipulation would be a good place to draw the line
even for the most enthusiastic drop-tank booster.

  G:T doesn't allow collapsible tankage, does it (in VE2, that is)?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 16:41:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration"

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? 
...
>> >>So how is a third party ship going to refuel from a fueling point
>> >>that's been destroyed?
>> 
>> It doesn't, but it's not supposed to. I think that's the point. Not every
>> vessel in the entire universe is going to rely on drop tanks, just the ones
>> where it makes a lot of economic sense to do so.
>
>His post implied that those third party ships could in fact refuel from a 
>destroyed station.
 
  Actually, it didn't; it may have been unclear; IIRC the thread with Mr.
Summers was about how badly screwed further drop-tank using freighters
would be as they arrived in a system where their support mechanisms had
been destroyed:

"
>>Not if you're going after point of origin.  Who cares where outbound ships
are 
>>going if you whack out the outbound fuel point?  Once they're there in the 
>>system, they aren't going anywhere to tell people *you're* there.
>
>  No, but the picket ships sitting quietly in the system will - even a neatly
>trimmed Striker (i.e., CT/OTU) budget goes a long way, let alone TCS money.
>One of the first things you discover upon hearing that "limited intelligence"
>only applies if you don't have a ship in-system is that scrapping a Strike
>Cruiser can buy several hundred little picket gnats. "

  The point (perhaps not clearly enough) is that the destruction of the link
in the system will be known at adjacent links a week later. Nowhere did I
say that the fuel station (destroyed) could be used by anyone.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:23:10 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

>>I suggest starting with the original version, written by Kipling.
>>
>What's the name of the Kipling Poem?

Sorry, can't locate it (book loaned to a student, I think).  Bug me again
in a couple of weeks if you haven't found it by then.

I remember being surprised when I read the Kipling poem, 'cause I'd thought
that Pournelle had made up the Line Marines March himself.  I asked him
about that once, and he said it wasn't plagarism because everyone knew he
liked Kipling (I hadn't).  When I asked him why he hadn't mentioned Kipling
in the introduction so that people who didn;t know about Kipling's poems
could enjoy them (because at the time I didn't know any Kipling but the
Jungle Books) he stopped paying attention to me.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 17:31:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>Where are det-lasers mentioned in HG?  AFAICT, det-lasers are a T4 phenomenon.

  Det-Lasers are TNE and on, but the fact that contact missiles simply don't
work given OTU technology is something that should be made reverse compatible
as the options arise. In this case I used the term for the benedit of
post-CT/MT TML'ers; the point is that under HG2 weapons below factor A can't
score internal explosions against armour 3+, except nuclear missiles rolling
snake-eyes.
  
...
>>   Sure. It's not a battlestation (a ridiculous concept in any case). Is there
>> a point to this recurring theme of yours? It's a gas (urr, liquid) station.
>
>Only that you're continually implying that these fuel stations are relatively 
>invulnerable to anything.  'Tain't so, Johny...

  Umm, BS? I've never said so, and I've repeatedly stated that they're a
tremendous liability militarily. If you can't keep track of who said what 
you sure as heck shouldn't attribute statements like that.

...
>You mean to tell me you built two identical starships, with the jump fuel 
>tankage converted to cargo space on one of them, *PLUS* a fueling station for 
>the cost of the starship with normal internal fuel tankage???  SHOW ME THE 
>NUMBERS.  *HOW* are you getting this station built *for free*?
  
  Don't be absurd. You can either get superior payload efficiency by putting
drop tanks on the full-sized hull or making a smaller hull with the same
cargo capacity as the larger internal tankage version. In either case some
sort of refuelling capacity - whether station-based or not is required to
allow the system to operate; needless to say the costs of the additional
support elements of the system must be less than the increased revenue.

  OK, now here's a re-post I did from Monday; please note that the ">>"
portion is your comment, IIRC. Please note your assertion "The numbers
don't support the allegations that non-fueled ships are cheaper." A bit
further on you'll run across proof that the drop-tank version is in fact
more efficient.

...
>>I don't have a problem with that.  I never have.  I *do* have problems with 
>>somebody's logic when they tell me that building ships without jump
tankage is 
>>cheaper than building them with, then say 'well, you use this cheap
station at 
>>the 100 diameter limit to hold your fuel'.  The numbers don't support the 
>>allegations that non-fueled ships are cheaper.
>
>  Here's the basic C3 fast trader:
>
>                FM-2431131-000000-30000-0       MCr 131.00     200 tons
>                  batts.          1                               TL=12
>                                                                Crew=4
>        Cargo=40. Passengers=8. LHyd=66. EP=6. Agility=1. Low=0.
>
>  Even at 50% over standard Traveller carriage rates this ship can't make
>a significant return to capital. (assumes 35 trips/p.a., 100% loading at
>x1.5 rates for MCr 6.3, versus MCr 5.25 annual mortgage payments based on
>the seris production cost of MCr 105).
>
>
>  Here's your C3 fast trader on drop tanks:
>
>                FM-2431131-000000-30000-0       MCr 131.01     200 tons
>                  batts.          1                               TL=12
>                                                                Crew=4
>        Cargo=100. Passengers=8. LHyd=6. EP=6. Agility=1. Low=0.
>
>  The cost using the tanks can be presumed to be KCr 60 per run; if the
>basic version is able to make any return then this vessel will also.
>Under the previous set of assumptions this vessel makes a further MCr 3.15
>per year, which is the difference between mediocre performance and not.
>Of course, this all assumes a shipping environment prior to adjustments
>for drop tank freighters long-term economic impacts.
>
>  See the difference?

  Now, as to your next "point"; "*HOW* are you getting this station built
*for free*?" Umm, we're not? We're going to _invest_ in it and run it as
a _business_ - just like a starship, Johny...

...
>>   Well, I am making the perhaps unreasonable assumption that such a service
>> station is a business designed to support more than a single ship. We could
>> even assume that such a small (1kt main hull) station at a world of moderate
>> importance off the main routes (200 meg @ TL A?) might deal with twenty small
>> (<1000 Dt) starships each week?
>
>Which means you're making somebody *else* pay for it.

  Well, those "customers" make even more money off it, so maybe they want to?

...
>>   You may also be missing the fact that an external tankage design is cheaper
>> per unit capability - thus the 400 Dt normal trader could be replaced by
(ForEx)
>> a 300 Dt Munchkin-class external tankage trader.
>
>The *point* of munchkinizing a ship was to allow increased cargo capacity.  If 
>you're just eliminating the tankage, you're *really* not gaining an advantage. 
> You're still shipping the same amount of cargo.  The point was to be able to 
>ship *MORE* cargo.  More cargo means you make more money.  *MY* calculations 
>are based on that premise.  Evidently, yours are *not*.

  No, the point is to increase haulage efficiency. If, after due consideration,
you believe your second comment then you're not qualified to be discussing this.
My calculations are based on increased efficiency. BTW, I don't recall having
seen any designs or calculations from you - can you give me the dates so I can
check the archive at MPGN?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:38:01 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Plastic Rifle

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rick Stump <hyperc@mailcity.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 5 May 1999 5:17
Subject: Re: I *do* have... (was swords in the kitchen)


>>I have trouble picturing an M-16 with a bayonet holding together. The
>>rifle is a *lousy* shape for most moves, and all that plastic is gonna
>>come apart. <sigh>
>
> Actually, they hold up well (at least in training); my DIs said that any
man who broke his rifle butt on a target got a 6-pack of soda (big deal in
Basic); we tried mightily - no one collected (ever, apparantly).
>
>

Yes, the term "plastic" throws you, doesn't it.  The M-16 stocking is
constructed of rather high impact plastics if not some kind of
carbon/plastic compound (if such exists?), all I remember is that when I got
out of the service, the Aust Army were replacing the old F1 SMG with M-16's.
Until then, M-16's were in use as carbines (7.62 mm SLR's [licensed FN's]
being the main infantry weapon before the Styre).

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 17:49:03 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle

The Roc wrote:
> 

> Yes, the term "plastic" throws you, doesn't it.  The M-16 stocking is
> constructed of rather high impact plastics if not some kind of
> carbon/plastic compound (if such exists?), all I remember is that when I got
> out of the service, the Aust Army were replacing the old F1 SMG with M-16's.
> Until then, M-16's were in use as carbines (7.62 mm SLR's [licensed FN's]
> being the main infantry weapon before the Styre).

Mattel, who were contracted by the DOD to make stocks for the M-16
during the Vietnam War, came out with the 'Tuff Stuff' line of childrens
blocks at the same time, these were (allegedly) made of the same
plastic, just dyed brighter colors. While this may or may not be urban
legend, those were astonishingly tough blocks....

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 21:10:59 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Locks (was: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...) 

> ObTrav:  This is absolutely relevant to most PCs since they tend to be
> the "determined" type.  Since hijacking tends to be a genuine risk with
> a starship, the security procedures can make a huge differenece in the
> outcome of the voyage.  You can't depend on
> mechanical/electronic/software locks to keep people out exclusively. 
> What you can do is use them to give you time to respond to a hijack
> attempt in a non-panic fashion (concern and urgency yes, panic no).
> - Joseph

IMTU, there are rumors of a 'Hotwire Anything Kit', reputedly availiable to 
members of various Imperial Security blackbag types.  Of course, none of my 
players have actually *seen* one of these puppies...

BTW, I stole that idea from Cole & Brunch's excellent 'Sten' series.  If you 
wanna know all about black bag stuff but were smart enough to not ask anybody, 
they're a good light read.  So are some of the recipies of the Eternal 
Emperor, for that matter...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:19:27 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle

Take it from an old political science major who had to study the development
goofs of the M-16 program.
Mattel DID NO make the stocks for any version of the rifle.  That is a nasty
urban myth that came out of Vietnam.   The glaring defects of the production
version of the rifle (more an ammunition problem than a rifle problem)
caused this myth become attached to the rifle as well.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 18:44:11 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: CT Deneb Data

Does anyone know where I can get CT Deneb data? Most of the listings on the 
Web...I've found are for TNE...
TIA
Mike McKeown


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:02:41 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two) 

> >> Virus, whether the unlikely official version or my much stripped down
> >> version, will go thru those primitive computers like candy.
> >
> > <flicking lighter/>
> > Are you trolling?
> >
> > </flicking lighter>
> >
> > :-)
> 
> Nope. Just stating a fact. My version requires either the presense of

Oh.  A fact?  U sure you're not trolling?  ;-)

> one of those $%^#$ transponders *or* physical contact. And if there is
> a transponder it infects that and then spreads via physical contact.

Sounds interesting, though of course i prefer the TNE one.  :-)

What bout tight beam computer controlled commo?  A "data" link? Etc?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:02:37 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT? 

> You are either missing or ignoring my point.

It'd have to have been 'missing.'  :-)

> Please read carefully.  All of the below statements are in the context of a
> Traveller Universe where lasers from orbit are perfectly effective against
> vehicle size targets.

Which is pretty much how it is, in every rules set, no?

> The problem is, you are comparing the scenario I've been talking about
> (perfect orbital fire support) with reality (imperfect air support).  The
> fact is, I agree more with your viewpoint *when the assumption of perfect
> orbital fire is not being used*.  Unfortunately, that is what this
> discussion was turned towards and all my previous statements were made in
> that context.

Must've missed it.  I did pretty much tune out till right when I piped in 
again. 

> Its a very simple situation, which is to say one that wont happen in
> reality.  then again, it is just a game, right?

Yup.  On both counts.  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:02:46 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> >But you really aren't deliberately adding further capablities.
> 
>   External folding fuel tanks that take up negligible internal volume aren't
> new? And that do so fast enough to be stowed between emptying and Jump?

It's just too bad it doesn't work w/ G:Ts explanation of J-drives and jump 
drive "fuel" usage, too, not that it works w/ any other (non house) version, 
either...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:00:53 +1000 
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation

I really liked the idea of a Virtual Reality Suite (as per Red Dwarf . . .
save for the whole groinal attachment thing).

IMTU I tried adapting the idea to a G Tank where the tank can be manipulated
by a VR program to give someone in a VR environment (and in the tank) the
sensation of movement or contact. But as I wasn't really sure what a G tank
did in the first place, I scrubbed it. 

Could a chamber lined with G plates and inertial compensators give hooked
into a VR environment an illusion of movement or contact by adjusting
varying levels of gravity?

Michael Hughes

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:02:44 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >>   You're radically over-estimating the cost of a bare-bones installations
> >> (which is, after all, what's needed). OTOH, I suspect that you're much
> >> closer wrt the military disadvantages of such a system.
> >
> >IMO that's very debatable (not that I think "jump stations" are anything 
but
> >a strawman, really).   They would be very vulnerable.  The one thing we
> >*know* is that fixed installations are undefendable and if anything like a
> 
>   You seem to be having a little trouble here. Once their vulnerability is
> accepted* then only their commercial efficiency is of interest. Have you 
done
> any work on how much these "strawman" stations would cost (I told the 
piggies
> to build from brick, but would they listen??) or read the posts that laid 
out
> those numbers for you?

Are/were you seriously proposing jump stations as the way Things Should Be?  
I didn't get that you were, but were presenting a hypothetical.  Not quite a 
strawman, if you didn't expect it to get trashed, I concede, khihe.  :-)

I don't seem to recall the specifics of your station design.  What digest was 
it in?  Or what date did you send it?  I do recall Keven being incredulous 
about the costs (or something like that).  Not having HG, I didn't see alot 
of reason to be "tuned in" real tight...   Can your design handle the barest 
fraction of the trade that goes through big WTNs ala Far Trader?

>  * it does behoove the Imperium to discourage this system in the 
frontiermost
> sub-sectors, not that regular shipping would be able to function either in a
> major war; it could make a difference in a protracted or lower-intensity 
war.

I think they'd be pretty vulnerable anywhere, really.  A Pirate (gasp!) or 
corsair (along the entire Vargr borders) would probably find it pretty 
desirable to toast the station, leaving him with a bunch of nice and ripe 
prey that are probably pretty low on gas.  This is especially a big problem 
w/ reaction drives (as I'm want to assume).  :-)
By the time help from the mainworld can arrive, the raiders are gone.

>   Or are you saying that it's their stipulated military disadvantages that 
are
> "very debatable"? :>

LOL.  NO, i'm pretty sure that's not it.  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:02:39 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT? 

> >is going to get even more complicated with easy space travel (and it's 
pretty
> >durned fun IMO, though complicated, to be a Forward Air Controller 
(F/A-18s,
> >Cobras, Harriers) or Forward Observer for Arty/mortars (155mm/81mm), as I
> >just got to practice some of that (w/ all them systems, too).  :-)
> 
> Are you serious about that last one?  My grandfather was an FO in WWII, and
> often described that as the worst job in the army....  I've heard that
> elsewhere, too.  Or did the job description change since then?

Well.  It was fun this last time.  :-)  It's fun to do now and then, but I 
wouldn't want to be a full time FO or FAC.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:02:42 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I Politics? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks) 

>   Do you mean oligarchy or oligopoly? It's entirely possible that the 
Emperor
> (if not the Court) don't have anything like a good idea of what's going on,

Both.  :-)  I really doubt the Emperor doesn't have "someone" (agent, noble, 
etc) who does know what's going on.  Course, I'd imagine most megacorp execs 
are nobles, too, though I can't recall anything in canon saying such 
(anything saying anything contrary or supporting?), except for Blaine Tukera 
(Margarets hubby).

> but it's a bit of stretch to infer that the megacorps really _rule_ the 3I
> (rather than merely being the main benefactors of its existence).

I wasn't saying that megacorps ruled the 3I, but that everything was so 
intertwined and that basically, it seems like the *Emperor* and his vassals 
owned the megacorps (at least in part) and the 3I.   I guess I meant 
oligarchy, after all.  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #563
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 5 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 564



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller Items for sale or trade
Re: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale
re: starship prices
Re: Invasion Earth
Re: Invasion Earth
Striker?
TML'ers in South-Western B.C.
Re: Invasion Earth
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation
Gearheads check this out
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Request
Re: Invasion Earth
Re: Telepresence
Re: Four Day Planet
Re: hair spray
Re: The Swordsmen of San Francisco
Re: hair spray
Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Four Day Planet
Computers and other things that might be handled in the same way
Re: Invasion Earth
#TravUndernet - Online Resources
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)
Re: Four Day Planet
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...
Re: Four Day Planet
A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:27:25 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Items for sale or trade

In a message dated 99-05-04 11:56:07 EDT, you write:

<< If you make a definitive list, I'd be very interested in seeing it.  As for
 requests, at the top of my list is DGP's Starship Operators Manual.  Do you
 have it/willing to part with it?   >>

What is DGP and what is SOM?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:28:41 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4/TNE/MT/CT Collection for Sale

In a message dated 99-05-04 12:01:57 EDT, you write:

<< Have you tried Imperium Games itself?  They still list CSC, Starships and
 FFS on their order form (dunno if that means they are still in or what).
 Their address is: >>

I placed an order with them about a week ago, consitering were I am in 
relashion to them I don't think they did a single thing.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:26:20 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: starship prices

Ian wrote:
>>>>>>>>
	Is 2% the figure for GT? IIRC in CT annual maintainance
	costs 0.1% of the full value of the vessel. IMTU this does
	not ever include major (expensive) components (see above).
>>>>>>>>
Oops, I got my game systems confused again. 2% is the High Guard
abstraction that includes crew, maintenance, expendables, bases,
training academies, etc...

The proper maintenance amount will slow down the "buy a new ship
one bolt at a time" effect by quite a bit.

Walt

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:49:57 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

>>> Someone asked what is Invasion:Earth -
>
>>Silly me, I thought it was a decology of novels by L. Ron Hubbard.  I 
>>like the first two choices better, though.  ;)
>
>That was _Battlefield: Earth_, and if it was written by the very dead L.
>Ron Hubbard, I'm a Republican canidate for President.

Sorry to disappoint, but the work is genuinely Hubbard's. It has
all the hallmarks of the really bad, overblown space-opera style of
SF that he used to write before he invented Dianetics, and later,
Scientology. Battlefield: Earth was first published in 1982, four
years before his death. The rest of the series came later, with 
the last few volumes seeing first publication in 1987. (I guess he
felt that with Scientology, he'd have a built-in readership.)

(No, I am not a Scientologist. In fact, I have trouble keeping a
straight face when thinking about the whole thing.)






     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:03:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Invasion Earth
...
>That was _Battlefield: Earth_, and if it was written by the very dead L.
>Ron Hubbard, I'm a Republican canidate for President.

  I thought you were holding out for Vice on the Cthulhu ticket?

  And I was told the Enlightened One had written at least one or
two SF books...               :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:03:21 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Striker?

>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...
...
>Traveller to me.   I must admit that my biggest gripe with CT was the lack of 
>a vehicle combat system.   Too many times we would have fighters or tanks 
>closing in on the escaping PC's as they boarded their Gcarrier and we 
>couldn't resolve what the PC RAM grenedes would do to the tanks or the tanks' 
>guns would do to the G carrier. /...

  You didn't like Striker?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:03:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: TML'ers in South-Western B.C.

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: re: Economics of BITS Books
>
>shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>
>>  Ideally then, we need to organize the second annual South-Western B.C.
>>mass mail-order, and this time patronize BITS (although last years choice
>>of "Letter of Marque" was well-received)? Would an order for twenty books
>>or so help rationalize the S&H charges?
>
>Probably - have sent Andy a copy of the email to review cost - would this
>be shipping to a single location?

  Yep. That assumes of course that the various TML'ers in South-Western B.C.
<poke> <prod> <wakey-wakey...> want to get together and place an order - I
should be OK for BITS books before too long anyway...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:03:49 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

In a message dated 99-05-04 22:53:23 EDT, cos90@powersurfr.com writes:

<< (No, I am not a Scientologist. In fact, I have trouble keeping a
 straight face when thinking about the whole thing.)
  >>

Why? (If you're wondering I'm an athiest [how ever it may be spelled])
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:19:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?
...
>Please read carefully.  All of the below statements are in the context of a
>Traveller Universe where lasers from orbit are perfectly effective against
>vehicle size targets.
...
>Note also that I do not believe that, in the canon nor in my own Traveller
>Universe, lasers from orbit *should* be that effective.  From a game play
>standpoint I'd rather they were a bit less accurate when firing from orbit
>at ground targets.

  AFAIK the canon OTU does agree with your sentiment - much of I:E would be
nonsensical if orbital dominance was capable of being genuinely decisive in
a limited war on the surface (BTW, what do we assume happened to Terras deep
meson sites in I:E?).

  A good chunk of that issue wrt orbital gunships might be attributed to
the sorts of beam weapons that work best in various conditions. IIRC, a
meter wide X-ray laser is going to suck if shot into most atmospheres, and
high energy weapon bolts are going to be ineffective in both directions.
The other question is how far can a non-TNE "spotlight shaped" laser (i.e.,
the stubby-barrelled sort in Striker) reach effectively without either grav
focussing or a much wider aperture?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:18:02 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation

In a message dated 99-05-04 22:14:08 EDT, you write:

<< I really liked the idea of a Virtual Reality Suite (as per Red Dwarf . . .
 save for the whole groinal attachment thing).
 
 IMTU I tried adapting the idea to a G Tank where the tank can be manipulated
 by a VR program to give someone in a VR environment (and in the tank) the
 sensation of movement or contact. But as I wasn't really sure what a G tank
 did in the first place, I scrubbed it. 
 
 Could a chamber lined with G plates and inertial compensators give hooked
 into a VR environment an illusion of movement or contact by adjusting
 varying levels of gravity? >>

I think that it could do that by providing restonce, alto I think you might 
be better off using some sort of spinal tape.  Replacint the nural signals 
from the lower body and replacing them with something that is computer 
generated and responsive to the user.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:28:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Gearheads check this out

http://science.nas.nasa.gov/Services/Education/SpaceSettlement/designer/regen.
html

You might want to check this out if are interested in space stuff.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:33:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

In a message dated 99-05-04 17:43:27 EDT, you write:

<< 	I thought that T4 was heart-breakingly close to getting it right.   
 The edition, however was sloppy and they still didn't integrate the starship 
 combat and personal combat systems into a seamless whole.    Nevertheless, I 
 GM'ed CT, MT and T4 and they all had the same "feel"   to me and my various 
 players.   One CT player who had missed MT, remarked that T4 felt like 
 Traveller to me.   I must admit that my biggest gripe with CT was the lack 
of 
 a vehicle combat system.   Too many times we would have fighters or tanks 
 closing in on the escaping PC's as they boarded their Gcarrier and we 
 couldn't resolve what the PC RAM grenedes would do to the tanks or the 
tanks' 
 guns would do to the G carrier.  T4 did almost the same thing in the main 
 book, leaving it to the CSC to clean up vehicles. >>

Why can't we just have one book that has all the errata and everything from 
T4 to the last product?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:46:36 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Request

>> need someone who can supply me with a scan of the K'kree and Aslan scripts
>>in whatever places they may have occured over the years.
>
>As far as I can tell, there _aren't_ any specific examples of either Aslan
>or K'kree script except what _might_ be script on armour, clothing, and
>accoutrements in some of the Keith drawings

The only picture of K'kree script I know is a drawing of the Dawn Tablet
from MTJ 4. I could send a scan, but the drawing is not detailed and the
script is only scribbles. It does look pictographic, however.

The description states the Dawn Tablet script is ideographic, using
crescents and wavy lines, and boustrophedic (alternating left to right,
then right to left). This form of writing is ancient and not readable by
modern K'kree but is recognizable as K'kree writing.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:44:41 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <SRKOALA@aol.com>: 
: << (No, I am not a Scientologist. In fact, I have trouble keeping a
:  straight face when thinking about the whole thing.)
:   >>
: 
: Why? 

He created the whole farce on a bet when he was stoned.

: (If you're wondering I'm an athiest [how ever it may be spelled])

Ah, one of those religeous nuts.


Log Losteraomirall C. Michael,
Geimdeild sambandshersins, Gram Floti:
Leiotogi af hinn Jaoar Uppreisn
~Skald af hinn CT Afturkoma~
[ http://www.downport.com/ct ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:43:22 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Telepresence

In a message dated 99-05-04 17:38:07 EDT, you write:

<< Oh, right, I should have thought of that. *smacks head*
 
 You are rapidly moving away from the "men in suits of armour"
 vision of battledress. As others have pointed out, what you have
 is an army of robots, in which case you might as well make them 
 robot-driven grav tanks and dispense with silly things like legs 
 altogether.

xxxx
The best vision of battlearmour that I have seen in the Elemental's from 
Battletech, 2xShort Range Missile with two missiles each.  A powerfull three 
pronged claw alows the user to rip things apart or squish heads.  The other 
arm has a small Laser or Machine gun.  
There is also another version that is lighter but has two powered gloves (a 
computer can be used).
xxxx
 
 Not that robots are a bad idea, but you've tweaked the concept of 
 battledress one thing at a time into something that's not battledress. >>

Well, I'm shure that the troopers would not compain:)
- -Stephen
Do not limit your self to what is known, take that and go beyond.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:45:01 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

In a message dated 99-05-04 17:28:48 EDT, you write:

<< I suppose the key word there is 'many'.  It's one thing to run from the 
heat,
 but there's got to be vegetation where you're running to (or there's nothing 
to
 eat).  Since you're moving towards the cold, the vegetation is essentially at
 the spring time and not ready to harvest.  It might be more wise to run from 
the
 cold and thus keep you perpetually in the harvest time winter (assuming all 
the
 plants don't burn up).  Also concider the weather effects, particularly the
 water cycle, as the day cycle rolls through.  Are there immense storms in the
 summer?  Or does all the water evaporate? >>

You're good, I had not though of that.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:50:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-04 16:44:52 EDT, you write:

<< Nasty - and dangerous to the user.  Seems for a while in NYC people were
 carrying cans of oven cleaner around for use  as defense against muggers,
 etc, since there was no law against it.  Over cleaner isn't considered a
 weapon , but can be quite effective at blinding (permanently) an attacker.
 
 Improvised weapons can be *really* nasty. >>

Try farm equipment.  You can shread, dismember, ect to anyone you can get to 
put a limm were is says to not to.  Or you can just force them into a 
propeler:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:54:49 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Swordsmen of San Francisco

In a message dated 99-05-04 16:38:01 EDT, you write:

<< >ps. you forgot weed-burners. Those are a legit tool, but would be
 >*nasty* in a melee (as long as no stray shots hit the propane tank!).
 
 I thought that was a weapon available in Traveller (T4).  Am I confusing it
 with some other RPG?  I know I've seen it in that setting... >>

It's called a flame thrower:)
And then you have the ever popular Rodent Ratteler (propain tank+O2 tank+ 
lighter=boom:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:57:49 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-04 15:59:52 EDT, you write:

<< "What was PC #1 hit with?  Hair spray.  (I was hit in the eyes 
 with hair spray by accident once as a child, and have since had 
 a very healthy respect for it.)"
 
 	For bonus points add a Bic lighter.
  >>

What about puting Poison Oak in a salad?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:01:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

In a message dated 99-05-04 15:32:55 EDT, you write:

<< 		MT		T4
 Tasks		Elegant		Faster, less thought needed
 Starship cbt	Revised HG	Published system broken (download RPSCS v0.9)
 Personal Cbt	Nice interupts	Most playable Traveller Personal combat system
  >>

Does T4 have interupts?  How is the T4 system less elegant?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:56:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

In a message dated 99-05-04 16:06:24 EDT, you write:

<< Eventually, sure. But they've *evolved* on this planet, so would have to
 develop technology "on the run", as it were; they never stop migrating,
 'round and 'round their world, never resting except to take shelter in
 underground burrows/caves/etc. Which would mean that they'd have to develop
 highly portable technology -- anything too big to carry along, or keep
 underground, would be hard for them to invent. >>

a cave could make a nice lab or store house.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:06:42 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Computers and other things that might be handled in the same way

Hi,
Does T4 make provishions for intelegant computers (realy smart ones, like the 
Savants from Outpost)?  Would they (along with other "parasites" bio critters 
that are attaced to the human body to help it along (Skrill from Earth: Final 
Conflict to name one)) be handled like other characters with skills and stats 
that evolve?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:13:25 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

In a message dated 99-05-04 23:55:00 EDT, you write:

<< : Why? 
 
 He created the whole farce on a bet when he was stoned.
 
 : (If you're wondering I'm an athiest [how ever it may be spelled])
 
 Ah, one of those religeous nuts. >>

Woudn't that be anti-religeous nuts? I leave other people to there own 
devices when it comes to religion, alto some cand do the same thing:(
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:12:57 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: #TravUndernet - Online Resources

Greetings!

The topic for Wednesday, May 5, 1999 is Traveller's Online Resources. Come
chat with us about favored online resources you use for Traveller gaming. 

See the website for details:  http://home.att.net/~websuz/

Please, do me the favor of emailing me or coming and telling me on channel
what topics would bring you to the channel!

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:40:23 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

In a message dated 99-05-04 13:13:30 EDT, you write:

<< I'm not sure. But I *am* sure that mammalian versus reptilian brain
 patterns will be *easy* to diferentiate. The structure of a reptile
 brain is *very* different from that of mammals. Not only do they lack
 the frontal lobes (so do most mammals), they lack the entire cerebrum
 IIRC (or is it cerebellum?) 
 
 Itelligent reptiles would have to evolve something to fill in the
 "gap", but odds are against it being much like the cererum. And thus,
 they'll have *very* different readings.  >>

Hmm, well I guess it would work, I'm not a neurogist so its sounds good, alto 
what I think it (the sensor) would be some thing that could just detect 
neural activity, nothing more.  The USAF does have something called a Squid, 
it is placed very hear the pilot (less than 1/4" from skull) and can be used 
to control things (planes, weapons, ect). If you get close enuff you could 
map there neurons, that would make for a very interesting situashion, plug 
the model into a coputer and talk to it.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:42:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)

In a message dated 99-05-04 13:13:46 EDT, you write:

<< Nope. Just stating a fact. My version requires either the presense of
 one of those $%^#$ transponders *or* physical contact. And if there is
 a transponder it infects that and then spreads via physical contact.
 
 Think of it as a form on nanotech. It'll take over more primitive
 circuitry by "tapping" all the I/O lines of a component or circuit
 until it can figure out what the component is designed to do (possibly
 even feeding in test signals of it's own once it has a rough idea).
 
 Once it knows what a component is for, it builds a replacement, and
 uses the rest for raw material. Whenever it has a "block" of circuits
 converted (ie it has a bunch on components or circuits where it has all
 the I/O lines handled), it'll stop and build a simplified circuit for
 just what they were supposed to do (given the way most electronics is
 built out of stock "blocks" this will free up a *lot* of silicon, etc).
 
 Once it has a "device" converted this way, it may just have a small
 subroutine handling what the device is "supposed" to do, while it
 continues to expand down all the connections. 
 
 Eventually, it'll get to the point where it can start dropping
 "unnecessary" functions, and start dealing with the crew. Once the crew
 is either killed or convinced to co-operate (depending on virus
 strain), it can go even farther as it no longer needs to fake the I/O
 that kept them happy.  >>

Sounds like a very good weapon, how did it start?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:46:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

In a message dated 99-05-04 13:14:20 EDT, you write:

<< There's a nice sequence where a ship crashes shortly after sundown.
 They have to build some sort of shelter to keep from freezing *and*
 find a way to heat it. Some of the local trees provide the heat. Their
 branches help reinforce the wet snow walls until they freeze solid. And
 the *very* hardwood "cores" of the trees burn nice and hot. Of course,
 it took an arc welder to get them lit! :-)
 
 The only city on the planet was built in a valley between a couple of
 peaks, and they then blasted the peaks and bulldozed them over to
 provide extra insulation. The spaceport is on top of the plateau thus
 formed. Ships generall only land in the early morning and late
 afternoon. The temps are reasonable, and the storms have either died
 down or not yet started.
 
 Yes, you get *nasty* storms around sunset and daybreak.  >>

Interesting, you have a point: things would most likly evolve from undergound 
things.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:56:17 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...

In a message dated 99-05-04 13:46:56 EDT, you write:

<< I'd go for a direct neural interface plug as a more realistic option than
 the instantly reshaped force screens cloaked in perfcet holograpghic
 shells that the holodeck seems to be (that stuff is just plain magic). >>

It would work, and it seems much beter, and it can be used to do training, 
and can be used for multi person sims.  Does Traveller have FTL comm?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:41:44 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

>>  My concept was that this species evolved on a world that was approaching
>>  tidal-lock, but hadn't got there yet. Four rotations per orbit seems about
>>  right for my purposes.
>>  I want to give it an F-type sun, so that the day side of the world is too
>>  hot for unprotected animals to survive for long, while the night side is
>>  generally too cold. Thus, many of the life forms, including my sophonts,
>>  have to travel *all the time* to stay near the terminator (there's no land
>>  or ice near the poles to live on).

Joe Pettit says,

>I suppose the key word there is 'many'.  It's one thing to run from the heat,
>but there's got to be vegetation where you're running to (or there's
>nothing to
>eat).  Since you're moving towards the cold, the vegetation is essentially at
>the spring time and not ready to harvest.  It might be more wise to run
>from the
>cold and thus keep you perpetually in the harvest time winter (assuming
>all the
>plants don't burn up).  Also concider the weather effects, particularly the
>water cycle, as the day cycle rolls through.  Are there immense storms in the
>summer?  Or does all the water evaporate?

Good questions I haven't got answers for, as yet. If I ever get around to
doing a write-up on this species, I'll post it. But this seems unlikely, as
they're #14 or so in my file of sophont-species concepts :)

Best,

 + GMG +

  "Another fertile source of ["moral insanity"] appears to be an undue
    indulgence in the perusal of the numerous works of fiction...with
the effect of vitiating the taste and corrupting the morals of the young.
 Parents cannot too cautiously guard their young daughters against this
pernicious practice." - Dr. W.H. Stokes, Scientific American, April 1849

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 22:55:45 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>Subject: Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two) 
...
>> >> Virus, whether the unlikely official version or my much stripped down
...
>> Nope. Just stating a fact. My version requires either the presense of
>> one of those $%^#$ transponders *or* physical contact. And if there is
>> a transponder it infects that and then spreads via physical contact.
...
>What bout tight beam computer controlled commo?  A "data" link? Etc?

  First, I've been a Virus fan. Yes - I was Goodlife*...

  I liked Virus. It wasn't serious at first - I just thought it was cool.
I'd really liked CT A:13 - Signal GK. I guess I should've been concerned
when I found myself listening to techno music.

  Eventually I started buying stuff, like the TNE rules. And the lead mini's.
My god, the lead mini's - it got to be trouble just storing them all. Sure,
I thought because I didn't play computer games that I didn't have a problem,
but who was I kidding? I guess I should've seen the signs...

  Anyway, I filtered into the camp of people who kinda thought Virus was
neat - heck, so they killed untold billions of Imperial citizens - so had
the Imperials! And Virus had some unresolved resentment issues of its own...

  So, sure, I was unimpressed by the post-Virus release timeline, but what
about Virus itself? OK, so I accept that the initial triggering of late
model Imperial transponders was only possible due to the 3I's Big Oops;
they're all latent Virus boxes and the activation element was a backwards
compatible** update of the latest nifty ideas for destroying the nervous
system of a civilization - optimized for the developers own empire,
strangely enough, but this _was_ The Big Oops.

  And if we accept something like modern computers (?) then physical contact
is acceptable within the context of the chips abilities described in A:13 
(which is CT, and thus superior, if imperfect :> ). But, physical contact
in that description seems to be limited to contact of material/media which
can serve as a chip if reconfigured - a power cable wouldn't count. Nor
should a radio broadcast (ForEx) unless the receiving unit was an SDG box.
But normal commo or power hook-ups - including optical data lines, etc.,
shouldn't be able to do it; the Cymbeline parasites rebuild their victims
a molecule at a time from a few centimeters away at best.

  I love Virus, but after 079-1130 I just don't have faith in it.

  Thank you for your support. <snif>

 * if you don't get the ref, read some Saberhagen Berserker stories?

 ** which kind of begs the question of whether Microsoft was still
around at the time of the 7IW.

  FWIW, I don't believe I've seen a proper TML Virus war. Yet?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 23:19:38 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>Are/were you seriously proposing jump stations as the way Things Should Be?  
>I didn't get that you were, but were presenting a hypothetical.  Not quite a 
>strawman, if you didn't expect it to get trashed, I concede, khihe.  :-)

  "Should" be in the sense of being desirable? Gods*, no. If drop tanks can
be used as written in HG2/TCS - let alone the horrible thought of external
drive support from tanker/stations - then the economic system very likely
_would_ end up looking something like that, allowing for regional variations;
that's why I've been against drop tanks for a long time as a Bad Idea.

  * or Great Old Ones, etc., as appropriate.

>I don't seem to recall the specifics of your station design.  What digest was 
>it in?  Or what date did you send it?  I do recall Keven being incredulous 
>about the costs (or something like that).  Not having HG, I didn't see alot 
>of reason to be "tuned in" real tight...   Can your design handle the barest 

  Probably the first one 05/03. AFAIK (and I've designed a fair stack of HG2
ships in the last eight months) it's a legal design; I can think of some even
"better" ideas that would be touchy under HG2.

>fraction of the trade that goes through big WTNs ala Far Trader?

  Don't get FT `til Sunday. However, the issue is scalability - this is a
ridiculously cheap station design (so cheap that some people didn't recognize
the design as a valid HG2 product) that can be physically enlarged or can be
augmented by increasing the orbiting herd size. And where people were arguing
whether a station that cost MCr 100 per 1000 Dt _for the hull alone_ was an
economically viable project this thing comes in at MCr 56 per 1000 DT fitted!

...
>>* it does behoove the Imperium to discourage this system in the frontiermost
>>sub-sectors, not that regular shipping would be able to function either in a
>>major war; it could make a difference in a protracted or lower-intensity war.
>
>I think they'd be pretty vulnerable anywhere, really.  A Pirate (gasp!) or 
>corsair (along the entire Vargr borders) would probably find it pretty 
>desirable to toast the station, leaving him with a bunch of nice and ripe 
>prey that are probably pretty low on gas.  This is especially a big problem 
>w/ reaction drives (as I'm want to assume).  :-)
>By the time help from the mainworld can arrive, the raiders are gone.

  First, I'd like to thank you for reviving the Pirate thread.  :-)
 i) under HG2 a pirate would find a 1kt station unpalatable, and a larger
one too much for any non-warship imaginable in that role. In fact, a point
made in the piracy debate is that such stations are great anti-piracy units.
 ii) the IN (or local forces) can't stop Vargr corsairs from wandering across
the border, refuelling at will and continuing twenty parsecs into the 3I?
 iii) a lot of people still haven't grasped that putting planetary security
elements in as close to the planet as possible is not a very good technique?
Or are they simply refusing to accept it and continuing to try and use an
exploded theory?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #564
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 5 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 565



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Plastic Rifle
Re: Plastic Rifle
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Plastic Rifle...
Re: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation
BD
Drop Tanks
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: hair spray
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Four Day Planet
Re: Four Day Planet
Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)
Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
Re: Design Limitations (was Re: solid hydrogen fuel)
Re: hair spray

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:20:53 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Tue, 04 May 1999 16:17:33 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>>>  External folding fuel tanks that take up negligible internal volume aren't
>>>new? And that do so fast enough to be stowed between emptying and Jump?

>>The follow from the description and the technology level of
>>the Imperium.  You don't need to add anything new to justify
>>them (you do need to add something to say they can't exist).
>
>  Under CT (in TCS) you can use rigid tankage for Jump, but _not_ collapsible
>tankage. Where is everyone else (including the authors?) missing the clear
>implication that the use of collapsible tankage for Jump "follows"?

The problem is that this just doesn't make sense and so it is
hard to extrapolate.  OTOH, the description just requires
that you be able to pump the fuel, hence implies that they
would work.

>  ISTR that the flexible piping thread a couple months ago may have touched
>on problems with non-rigid fluid handling; it may be that the authors did
>decide that those issues decided the restriction to rigid tankage for them.
>I believe that such a stipulation would be a good place to draw the line
>even for the most enthusiastic drop-tank booster.

The so called rigid pipe problem just doesn't exist.
We can pipe cryogenic in flexible pipes today.  I can come
up with callapsable tank idea off the top of my head (use
gravitics, simply head the back side (the pressure will simply
help drive the fuel out of the tank), make the tank out of
single cells that can be warmed and collapsed before the whole
tank if empty, etc.)  The problem is that it really is a
straightforward engineering situation even before you take
into account the fact that the Imperium is suppose to be
so far ahead of us.
>  G:T doesn't allow collapsible tankage, does it (in VE2, that is)?

I don't think it addresses it.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 02:49:28 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle


>Mattel, who were contracted by the DOD to make stocks for the M-16
>during the Vietnam War, came out with the 'Tuff Stuff' line of childrens
>blocks at the same time, these were (allegedly) made of the same
>plastic, just dyed brighter colors. While this may or may not be urban
>legend, those were astonishingly tough blocks....


That would be kind of interesting. I've never heard that one specifically. 

"You can tell it's Mattel, 'cause it's swell!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 03:00:38 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle

- -----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Vickers <redroach@flex.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle


>Take it from an old political science major who had to study the
development
>goofs of the M-16 program.
>Mattel DID NO make the stocks for any version of the rifle.  That is a
nasty
>urban myth that came out of Vietnam. The glaring defects of the production
>version of the rifle (more an ammunition problem than a rifle problem)
>caused this myth become attached to the rifle as well.


I'm not sure why it's a *nasty* piece of folklore. It's not an insult to any
corporation, or even the M-16 itself. It's not like the Proctor & Gamble
myths that are put forth by members of a rival corporation for the purpose
of increasing sales.

It's easy to see the leap of logic. My father told a friend and I about his
experiences in Vietnam. He mentioned that when the rifle was introduced,
"You can tell it's Mattel 'cause it's swell!" was a really common
advertising slogan and was applied in reference to the rifle...

Just about three weeks ago (years after the incident) my friend asked if the
gun was manufactured, in whole or in part, by Mattel. It's easy to see how
something like that would get started.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 03:11:25 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 2:01 AM
Subject: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans


>(which is CT, and thus superior, if imperfect :> ). But, physical contact
>in that description seems to be limited to contact of material/media which
>can serve as a chip if reconfigured - a power cable wouldn't count. Nor
>should a radio broadcast (ForEx) unless the receiving unit was an SDG box.
>But normal commo or power hook-ups - including optical data lines, etc.,
>shouldn't be able to do it; the Cymbeline parasites rebuild their victims
>a molecule at a time from a few centimeters away at best.


Here goes my problem. I never actually owned "Survival Margin," so during
the period when I ran TNE, I never even knew about the Cymbeline parasite
concept. That idea is set forth in any of the other TNE books, at least as
far as I've seen.

Virus is presented in the rest of the books as a nasty program that could
only take hold and activate in computers that were above a specific
complexity.

Alot of people seem to harp on this point, but I don't see how it's all that
important as it seems to have gotten mentioned only in one book. It's never
mentioned in "Vampire Fleets" for example, which is the Virus sourcebook
(where you would expect such an important concept to be mentioned).

It's just like lanthanum grids, jump bubbles, jump torpedoes and the Annic
Nova: stuff that is mentioned in one book or another that not everybody
accepts as *canon*.

I ran a TNE campaign for some time, and never once was I exposed to the term
Cymbeline, nor did it ever pop into my mind.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:25:13 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Vickers <redroach@flex.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 5 May 1999 11:40
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle


>Take it from an old political science major who had to study the
development
>goofs of the M-16 program.
>Mattel DID NO make the stocks for any version of the rifle.  That is a
nasty
>urban myth that came out of Vietnam.   The glaring defects of the
production
>version of the rifle (more an ammunition problem than a rifle problem)
>caused this myth become attached to the rifle as well.
>
>TV

I do recall that early models had glaring mechanism problems leading that,
and the plastic stocking, to it being called a "Toy Gun" and I do recall in
Australia it (the toy gun) was said to be  made by Cronor!  I vote for the
Urban Legend take  :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:28:27 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 5 May 1999 12:24
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation


>I really liked the idea of a Virtual Reality Suite (as per Red Dwarf . . .
>save for the whole groinal attachment thing).
>

Ahhhh... the old Virtual Reality Suit... it worked for Dwayne Dibbly!!!!
Heheheheh... What memories, what memories, must drag those vids out of the
cupboard again now  :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:49:23 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: BD

- -----Original Message-----
From: SRKOALA@aol.com <SRKOALA@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 5 May 1999 2:05
Subject: Re: Telepresence



> Not that robots are a bad idea, but you've tweaked the concept of
> battledress one thing at a time into something that's not battledress. >>
>
>Well, I'm shure that the troopers would not compain:)
>-Stephen
>Do not limit your self to what is known, take that and go beyond.
>

You reckon?  I imagined the warrior creed was big and strong in the Empire
(it was in MTU, YKMV)!  BD was warrior's armour, it had two purposes, 1)
Protect the wearer somewhat,and 2) Get covered in the enemies blood!  What's
all this talk about taking Imperial troopies out of the battle?  Sheesh!

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:37:44 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Drop Tanks

- -----Original Message-----
From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 5 May 1999 4:35
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks



>>
>>  Under CT (in TCS) you can use rigid tankage for Jump, but _not_
collapsible
>>tankage. Where is everyone else (including the authors?) missing the clear
>>implication that the use of collapsible tankage for Jump "follows"?
>
>The problem is that this just doesn't make sense and so it is
>hard to extrapolate.  OTOH, the description just requires
>that you be able to pump the fuel, hence implies that they
>would work.
>
>>  ISTR that the flexible piping thread a couple months ago may have
touched
>>on problems with non-rigid fluid handling; it may be that the authors did
>>decide that those issues decided the restriction to rigid tankage for
them.
>>I believe that such a stipulation would be a good place to draw the line
>>even for the most enthusiastic drop-tank booster.
>
>The so called rigid pipe problem just doesn't exist.
>We can pipe cryogenic in flexible pipes today.  I can come
>up with callapsable tank idea off the top of my head (use
>gravitics, simply head the back side (the pressure will simply
>help drive the fuel out of the tank), make the tank out of
>single cells that can be warmed and collapsed before the whole
>tank if empty, etc.)  The problem is that it really is a
>straightforward engineering situation even before you take
>into account the fact that the Imperium is suppose to be
>so far ahead of us.
>>  G:T doesn't allow collapsible tankage, does it (in VE2, that is)?
>
>I don't think it addresses it.
>

This thread is, errrr... great!  Do you guys play the game as recreation, or
is there money riding on the outcome of the logistics of drop tanks?

Although we can use real physics and maths and whatever on this, it is still
only theory, and therefore, no-one is going to be right -- nor wrong for
that matter.

My take is (and remember, I can't be wrong on this, regardless of what
anyone writes, produces, or says), is that the Imperium has had access to
DT's from a medium-low TL with other forms of transport, and even to the
higher TL's I would assume they are available to, even on some starships,
that close escort for one.  Now, the Empire being what it is, working the
way it does, I would assume a whole bucket-load of SS's would be equipped
with DT's if they were feasible.  Apparently, they are not?

A "hand-wave?"  Probably.  But an almost official hand-wave as we don't see
a dozen or more plans/stats of SS's ranging from CT to now.  Perhaps there
are perfectly functional DT designs in R&D sites throughout the Imperium,
but when attached to a vessel and the vessel attempts to jump...
Boom/splat/faze/disappear/whatever?  "Funny, it worked on the computer
model?  Why did the test ship disintegrate like that?"

Well, that was demountable.  What about collapsible?  Uneven fuel feed?
Trouble with filtering?  They just don't seem to work properly (not like on
the box!), or "Damn it!  The bloody thing just went 'fizz' like the test
ship with the demountable tanks did!  What's going on here?"

Why does it work on (pick a number out of the air...) three types of SS's
and not on any other?  Jump dynamics none of us have the foggiest about!
Those three (or 6 or 12, or whatever number you like) models are at the
exact configuration to handle the unknown dynamics of J-space without ill
effect, unintentionally... and the R&D people don't know this yet, and if
they did, they still don't have the numbers that go together to carry the
new design through J-space (remember, the computer models don't help... it's
just one of those things).  The options?  Design and build an infinite
number of SS's and test them (remotely of course) until they luck a design
in!  If they could afford it, and who would try?

Hand-wave?  Sure is, simple too.  And it's as right as any argument on this
list!  Until Mark Miller or another Traveller guru cares to explain why such
a low-tech device is not common throughout a high-tech Empire (and not only
one Empire at that!).

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:34:36 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>Here goes my problem. I never actually owned "Survival Margin," so during
>the period when I ran TNE, I never even knew about the Cymbeline parasite
>concept. That idea is set forth in any of the other TNE books, at least as
>far as I've seen.
<snip>
>It's just like lanthanum grids, jump bubbles, jump torpedoes and the Annic
>Nova: stuff that is mentioned in one book or another that not everybody
>accepts as *canon*.

Unfortunately for your argument, the Cymbeline "chips"  are _not_  just
mentioned in Survival Margin, they are mentioned in several other places,
most notably Signal GK.

However, the reason it's not mentioned in a lot of places is that it's not
suppposed to be general knowlege how virus propogates, and your not supposed
to run a TNE game without buying or at least reading Survival Margin, just
as youlre not supposd to run a MegaTraveller game without reading "Hard
Times"
<grin>

>I ran a TNE campaign for some time, and never once was I exposed to the
term
>Cymbeline, nor did it ever pop into my mind.

Which is like admitting you directed a play without reading the most
important act, not neccessarily something to be proud of.
<grin>

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:38:54 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: hair spray

>What about puting Poison Oak in a salad?

It's usually hard to get intruders to eat your salad.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:52:04 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

>I remember being surprised when I read the Kipling poem, 'cause I'd thought
>that Pournelle had made up the Line Marines March himself.  I asked him
>about that once, and he said it wasn't plagarism because everyone knew he
>liked Kipling (I hadn't).  When I asked him why he hadn't mentioned Kipling
>in the introduction so that people who didn;t know about Kipling's poems
>could enjoy them (because at the time I didn't know any Kipling but the
>Jungle Books) he stopped paying attention to me.

I'm not surprised, kipling is an ancient art that should not discussed with
those who do not know the secret handshake.

OTrav: "The Man Who would be King", and several other works translate
perfectly to Traveller

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 23:00:07 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>  Under CT (in TCS) you can use rigid tankage for Jump, but _not_
collapsible
>tankage. Where is everyone else (including the authors?) missing the clear
>implication that the use of collapsible tankage for Jump "follows"?

Actually, you _can_ use "collapsible" tankage, you just have to leave it
behind, because the whole point of the drop tank is to reduce the mass of
the jumping ship so that you don't need as much fuel.

Unless the collapsible tank somehow weighed considerably less than a rigid
tank (which is highly unlikely, as honeycomb aluminium, for instance, is far
less heavy than the rubberised canvas "collapsible" tanks used in Iroquos
helicopters that are the closest thing I've seen to this concept in real
life ) you wouldn't gain anything from using them _unless_ you could load
cargo immediately prior to jump in the space of the collapsible tank , which
means transhipment of cargo from one ship to another in deep space, when one
ship at that point , with capacitors fully charged, being a bomb waiting to
go off.

Might be possible in an emergency, but too dangerous for commercial
operation.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:17:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

In mail you write:

>> There's a nice sequence where a ship crashes shortly after sundown.
>> They have to build some sort of shelter to keep from freezing *and*
>> find a way to heat it. Some of the local trees provide the heat. Their
>> branches help reinforce the wet snow walls until they freeze solid. And
>> the *very* hardwood "cores" of the trees burn nice and hot. Of course,
>> it took an arc welder to get them lit! :-)
>
> Most of the on world transport is done by submarine, as well as the major
> source of 'hard' money - exporting the fat of a marine animal that has the
> curious ability of stopping radiation much cheaper than manufactured
> shielding.

This property of "tallow-wax" isn't that surprising. *Wax* is good a
stopping particle type radiation. Mostly because of all the hydrogen
atoms. 

"Tallow-wax" is a *huge* organic molecule (there are comments about it
being visible in an *optical* microscope). Such a molecule *would* be
good for shielding against alpha, beta and neutrons. 

The main use was for impregnating protective clothings, as it shielded
better than lead, and was a *lot* lighter and more flexible. 

All-in-all, I think Piper did a good job of "designing" tallow-wax.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:23:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

In mail you write:

>>  My concept was that this species evolved on a world that was approaching
>>  tidal-lock, but hadn't got there yet. Four rotations per orbit seems about
>>  right for my purposes.
>>
>>  I want to give it an F-type sun, so that the day side of the world is too
>>  hot for unprotected animals to survive for long, while the night side is
>>  generally too cold. Thus, many of the life forms, including my sophonts,
>>  have to travel *all the time* to stay near the terminator (there's no land
>>  or ice near the poles to live on).
>
> I suppose the key word there is 'many'.  It's one thing to run from
> the heat, but there's got to be vegetation where you're running to
> (or there's nothing to eat).  Since you're moving towards the cold,
> the vegetation is essentially at the spring time and not ready to
> harvest.  It might be more wise to run from the cold and thus keep
> you perpetually in the harvest time winter (assuming all the plants
> don't burn up).  Also concider the weather effects, particularly the
> water cycle, as the day cycle rolls through.  Are there immense
> storms in the summer?  Or does all the water evaporate?

Given the likely conditions, I'd say that the plants would go to seed
*before* noon in many cases. So you could follow along at that "time"
of day. 

And in reality, since the edible portions of plants are *not*
necessarily the seeds/fruit, odds are that *if* you know what to look
for you can find food at any time of day. 

Leaves and new buds are available as soon as or shortly after it starts
getting light (spring). Flowers are available later (summer). There may
a period of "seeds" and "fruit" being available duriung the hottest
part of the day, as some plants will quit then. 

Others, with deeper roots, can still get water, and will be making the
most of all that sunlight. Stems and roots are the likely food sources
for anyone around at this time of day.

As it starts to cool, some plants may go for a second seeding or
produce fruit (to be distributed by animals that have estivated thru
the hot part of the day). 

More will wait for the evening (fall) rains and make do with limited
light but abundant water. 

And at night (winter) we are back the stems and roots. 

It may prove informative to wander thru the produce section of a
supermarket and consider *what* part of a plant the various items are. 

Grains and nuts are obviously seeds. So is corn.  Berries (and
tomatoes!) are fruits. Artichokes, Broccoli and cauliflower (as well as
many forms of cabbage) are *flowers*. Brussels sprouts are "buds".
Celery, rhubarb, and cinnamon are all stems or bark. Potatoes,
radishes, carrots, etc are all roots. Lettuce and spinach are leaves.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:42:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)

In mail you write:

>> >> Virus, whether the unlikely official version or my much stripped down
>> >> version, will go thru those primitive computers like candy.
>> >
>> > <flicking lighter/>
>> > Are you trolling?
>> >
>> > </flicking lighter>
>> >
>> > :-)
>> 
>> Nope. Just stating a fact. My version requires either the presense of
>
> Oh.  A fact?  U sure you're not trolling?  ;-)
>
>> one of those $%^#$ transponders *or* physical contact. And if there is
>> a transponder it infects that and then spreads via physical contact.
>
> Sounds interesting, though of course i prefer the TNE one.  :-)
>
> What bout tight beam computer controlled commo?  A "data" link? Etc?

That'll only work if there's a "compatible" system on the other end. In
this case, that means one of those transpoders based on the silicon
lifeform. Otherwise, it just ain't gonna work. 

It's like email. The *only* reason an email message can infect your
computer is because it has both compatible hardware and software *and*
because the software has some truly *stupid* defaults. 3000 years in
the future they'll know better than to write software that's *that*
stupid. 

Current Windows Email software is all too much like having cigarette
vending machines and a smoking area next to the fueling pumps. Sooner
or later, someone is going to figure out that this is a *stupid* design
and require that things be done differently. We just haven't had a bad
enough "accident" yet. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:47:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-04 13:13:46 EDT, you write:
>
> << Nope. Just stating a fact. My version requires either the presense of
>  one of those $%^#$ transponders *or* physical contact. And if there is
>  a transponder it infects that and then spreads via physical contact.
>  
>  Think of it as a form on nanotech. It'll take over more primitive
>  circuitry by "tapping" all the I/O lines of a component or circuit
>  until it can figure out what the component is designed to do (possibly
>  even feeding in test signals of it's own once it has a rough idea).
>  
>  Once it knows what a component is for, it builds a replacement, and
>  uses the rest for raw material. Whenever it has a "block" of circuits
>  converted (ie it has a bunch on components or circuits where it has all
>  the I/O lines handled), it'll stop and build a simplified circuit for
>  just what they were supposed to do (given the way most electronics is
>  built out of stock "blocks" this will free up a *lot* of silicon, etc).
>  
>  Once it has a "device" converted this way, it may just have a small
>  subroutine handling what the device is "supposed" to do, while it
>  continues to expand down all the connections. 
>  
>  Eventually, it'll get to the point where it can start dropping
>  "unnecessary" functions, and start dealing with the crew. Once the crew
>  is either killed or convinced to co-operate (depending on virus
>  strain), it can go even farther as it no longer needs to fake the I/O
>  that kept them happy.  >>
>
> Sounds like a very good weapon, how did it start?
> -Stephen

Much the way the official Virus did. They started with the intelligent
silicon life form, and modified it into a weapon. Only it got away from
them. 

Sort of like an *intelligent* "gray goo" accident. "Gray goo" being the
generic term for a runaway nanotech organism. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:50:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

In mail you write:

>> Also, they make a drop in selector switch that will fit most any Glock
>> pistol - but it isn't available in the US.
>
> Actually, they are available in the U.S., but only to LEOs and the
> military (since they're post-May '86 devices).  The're manufactured
> by Revelation Arms (Roger Loock & Co.) right here in Oregon, just outside
> Portland.  Roger and the gang will be at our big spring full-auto shoot
> (the biggest one west of the Mississippi) weekend after next!

Gee, since it won't be crossing state lines, can Oregon residents get
them *without* all the federal hassles? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:55:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Design Limitations (was Re: solid hydrogen fuel)

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: solid hydrogen fuel
> ...
>>The secondary (and minor) usage where you take the tanks *through* a
>>jump to refuel afterwards, depend on your ship being able to haul them
>>along anyway. So while the cutoff point for practicality will be
>>different, there will still be designs that can do it. 
>
>   This brings up a point - a lot of CT ships _can't_ haul drop tanks, or
> are in a very dubious rules position with respect to doing so.
>
>   Firstly, a Jump-1 drive that wasn't over-built (i.e., a 300-Dt capacity
> drive installed in a 200-Dt hull) _can't_ do a jump with any additional
> tankage/stowage at all; this assumes that J#'s truncate after calculations,
> but if they don't then transporting small planetoids by tethering them to
> Seekers starts to look feasible. Per TCS larger drives may not be 
> retrofitted.
>
>   Secondly, combos over 1000-Dt won't have the minimum bridge requirement
> to operate (2% of Dt). If this doesn't apply then it's a further bonus for
> the "all tankage is welded drop-tanks" absurdity. FWIW, the Jump Ship in S:9
> does appear to have allocated bridge tonnage for its supposed 10kt full load.
> Per HG2 this restriction will rarely apply to sub-1000 Dt ships but some sort
> of solution needs to be considered. Some precedent allows this but a solution
> needs to be considered.

My take on drop tanks that are "carried thru", is that it'd be done by
ships operating at reduced *cargo* capacity.

This works because you are still under the max mass, and the attachment
points and extra piping will mass about the same as the piping and
tiedowns (or whatever) required by fuel bladders in the holds. And the
drop tanks will be *lighter* than fuel bladders of the same capacity.
Even if they aren't, you can jettison the tanks far more easily than
bladders. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 02:07:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: hair spray

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-04 16:44:52 EDT, you write:
>
> << Nasty - and dangerous to the user.  Seems for a while in NYC people were
>  carrying cans of oven cleaner around for use  as defense against muggers,
>  etc, since there was no law against it.  Over cleaner isn't considered a
>  weapon , but can be quite effective at blinding (permanently) an attacker.
>  
>  Improvised weapons can be *really* nasty. >>
>
> Try farm equipment.  You can shread, dismember, ect to anyone you can get to 
> put a limm were is says to not to.  Or you can just force them into a 
> propeler:)

Try one of those industrial sized tree chippers that they use to clean
up after big storms and the like. Toss a body in the hopper, and bloody
shreds come out the other side. Feed in some more tree limbs and other
yard trash, and dump off the load at the composting center. Unless they
look *soon* they'll never find a trace of the body.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #565
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 5 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 566



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: hair spray
Re: hair spray
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: TML'ers in South-Western B.C.
Re: Plastic Rifle...
Re: hair spray
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
VR suits
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #564
Manzar References (was Re: Invasion Earth)
MT vs T4 Character Generation
Plastic Rifle by Mattel
MTJ 4:  Lords of Thunder
Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: hair spray
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Plastic Rifle...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 02:09:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: hair spray

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-04 15:59:52 EDT, you write:
>
> << "What was PC #1 hit with?  Hair spray.  (I was hit in the eyes 
>  with hair spray by accident once as a child, and have since had 
>  a very healthy respect for it.)"
>  
>         For bonus points add a Bic lighter.
>   >>
>
> What about puting Poison Oak in a salad?

Far to obvious. And the symptoms appear too soon.

Check out one of Leslie Fish's "after things fell apart" type filk
songs: "Rhododendron honey". It tells of the small town of survivors
who get a visit from a heavily armed gang that thinks it looks like a
good place to take over. The townsfolks don't put up a fight. They fix
a big meal and some of them (mostly the older folks) sit down with them
to eat it while everyone else is busy serving. Among other dishes, they
serve rhododendron honey, and amanita stew... Afterwards, the dead
volunteers are buried with great ceremony, and the dead thugs are
chucked into the old mineshaft outside of town. 

*Never* piss off folks familar with the local plants and animals, when
you *don't* have backup. If they are willing to die to take you out,
the above (or *worse*) can happen. 

What could be worse? Maybe they know about something like curare. So
they've just paralyzed everybody who ate the meal. They can then give
the antidote to their folks. Which leaves you, concious, and paralyzed,
at their mercy. Or lack thereof.

ps. For those who haven't figured it out by this point, rhododendron
flowers contain something that makes honey made from their nectar
*poisonous* to humans. And "amanita" refers to the Amanita ????
mushroom. Tasty, and a *nasty* way to die. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 23:05:06 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: hair spray

>Improvised weapons can be *really* nasty.
>
>ObTrav:  Mercenary ticket to subjugate lower tech planet - but the people
>there are extremely cleaver.  Lots of potential in turning 'trash' into
>weapons against the Merc PCs.


All I can say is ....  Dorsai !

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 07:27:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

Howdy!

> >Like some famous guy said, you're not really holding the ground until
> >you can leave a nineteen-year-old with a rifle on it.
> 
> My former room-dog Black Ice put it this way,
> 'Until you're on it, you don't own it.'
> 
When I first read this, it thought I saw:

...dog...
'Until you pee on it you don't own it'

:)

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 13:08:43 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

At 15:38 04/05/1999 -0500, "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com> wrote:
>>Like some famous guy said, you're not really holding the ground until
>>you can leave a nineteen-year-old with a rifle on it.
>
>My former room-dog Black Ice put it this way,
>'Until you're on it, you don't own it.'
>
As Napoleon found out in Spain and many others have, before and since,
You don't own any ground until you don't *need* to put the infantry on it.

Infantry borrows ground, just like everyone else - just a smaller bit
for a longer time

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 05:23:27 -0700
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: TML'ers in South-Western B.C.

<Yawn-Stretch-Blink-Blink> Uh... sure count me in.
Dave

Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> >Subject: re: Economics of BITS Books
> >
> >shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
> >
> >>  Ideally then, we need to organize the second annual South-Western B.C.
> >>mass mail-order, and this time patronize BITS (although last years choice
> >>of "Letter of Marque" was well-received)? Would an order for twenty books
> >>or so help rationalize the S&H charges?
> >
> >Probably - have sent Andy a copy of the email to review cost - would this
> >be shipping to a single location?
>
>   Yep. That assumes of course that the various TML'ers in South-Western B.C.
> <poke> <prod> <wakey-wakey...> want to get together and place an order - I
> should be OK for BITS books before too long anyway...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 07:22:37 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle...

The original rifle was a monster.  Wouldn't want to get stuck on the
receiving end. THe production models however changed the original into a bad
idea.  The wrong type of ammo upped the cyclic rate which lead to the
infamous jamming problem. That was an army snafu all the way.  The army also
tightened up the rifling, which made the M-16 more accurate at extended
ranges, but the bullet no longer tumbled, making it a much less devestating
round.  So, if the army had kept what was delivered (air force bought a
large load of the original spec M-16 and the correct ammo, ) then the M-16
would have been a much better rifle.  Its still a good gun, its just no
where near as effective as it was designed to be.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle...


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Thomas Vickers <redroach@flex.net>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Wednesday, 5 May 1999 11:40
>Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle
>
>
>>Take it from an old political science major who had to study the
>development
>>goofs of the M-16 program.
>>Mattel DID NO make the stocks for any version of the rifle.  That is a
>nasty
>>urban myth that came out of Vietnam.   The glaring defects of the
>production
>>version of the rifle (more an ammunition problem than a rifle problem)
>>caused this myth become attached to the rifle as well.
>>
>>TV
>
>I do recall that early models had glaring mechanism problems leading that,
>and the plastic stocking, to it being called a "Toy Gun" and I do recall in
>Australia it (the toy gun) was said to be  made by Cronor!  I vote for the
>Urban Legend take  :^)
>
>--  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 08:52:26 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: hair spray

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Try one of those industrial sized tree chippers that they use 
to clean up after big storms and the like. Toss a body in the 
hopper, and bloody shreds come out the other side. Feed in some 
more tree limbs and other yard trash, and dump off the load at 
the composting center. Unless they look *soon* they'll never 
find a trace of the body."

	I recall seeing a TV show about just such a case. The 
	details are lost to me now, but bone chips and one or two 
	teeth were found, and I believe that someone went to
	jail. Isn't forensic work great?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:02:00 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

At 02:32 PM 5/4/99 -0700, you wrote:
>[A few general comments to a reasonable analysis (except a few
>parts I didn't follow :-)...)
>
>Tue, 4 May 1999 17:33:46 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>
>>First, I personally assume drop tank usage as part of megacorp operations.
>
>I would say that it wouldn't be long for a corporation to realize
>they can make money selling fuel to independants.  Also, small
>companies with a few ships will form alliances to share facilities
>and then sell to other independants to (at first) defray costs
>and then (as time goes by) to gain profit.  Of course the
>megacorps handle most of the traffic and set the economics.
>
>>That is part of how they are more profitable the free traders.  I also
>>assume they local megacorp offices prebook cargo, pasengers, ferry and feul
>>services for their big ship to cut turn arround time to a minimum.
>
>Prebooking is in Far Trader.  Tramps take what is left over.
>Quite reasonable.
>
>>  I also
>>assume that there are depos that long jump ships jump to and short haul
>>ships that break out the cargo from these depos.
>>
>>For example:  In this post the example was to high trade worlds 5 hexes
>>apart.  IMTU there would be a ship or a pair of ships that made this run.
>>When they broke out in system at their prearranged location there would be a
>>tank tug to load full new drop tanks while cargo tow ships would play
>>musical containers and the ferry would dock to transfer passengers.  If the
>>line was efficent the ferry would transfer passengers to a small
>>acoomadations base to wait for the next ship in the link to take passengers
>>further along their route if their final destination was futher along or to
>>a shuttle to take them to the planet if it were the passengers destination.
>>In effect a company 'airport' at the 100 dia limit.  Crew could rotate as
>>well.
>
>A drop tank ship coming out of jump isn't in an different postion,
>regarding needed to drop cargo their vs going to the port, than
>other ships.  However, this sort of arrangement is generally
>possible.  (Again, Far Trader mentions it, but I don't remember
>what conclusion it came to, I think "it depends" and it gave
>costs for various methods).
>

Actually this method of optomising jump time works for either Drop tank
ships or non drop tank ships. You just get more cargo on the drop tank ships.

>>At two ships per run the temp ship would have to 'stand in' for 4 weeks per
>>run plus loose two weeks for it's own maintainence and one week to jump to
>>'get back into rotation'.  That leaves a week of other down time.
>
>I didn't fully understand this part....

You need one spare ship per other 22 ships to fill in during anual
maintainence time.  Have anthoer spare JIC would be a good idea.

>>
>>This 'system' is modeled after the freight trucking system with long and
>>short haul drivers and trucks.  The model works.
>>
>>If you assume a maximun jump of jump 5 for best efficency (only two ship
>>designs).  You station jump 8 'short haulers' at each jump 5 depo and you
>>can reach any point along the route.
>
>Now I know you don't mean a ship that can do jump-8 :-)

Typo, should be 8 jump two ships

>
>> You need 24 jump 5 and 122 jump 2
>>ships to give twice weekly service year round to 55 hexes of trade route.
>>Also for effecency's sake the jump 5 ships would need to be 5 times larger
>>in cargo capacity that the jump 2.
>
>I'm not sure what you mean here either.  A jump-5 ship with the same
>cargo makes 2.5 the revenue of a jump-2 ship.  I think you are talking
>about using j-5 ships to fill in on j-2 routes so you don't need
>a second ship type.  I think in that decisions you just have to
>figure whether the cost of wasted range is worth not builing a
>second ship.  (Remember, the "j-2" world will only tranship cargo
>if it is cheaper than just sending it direct to the destination,
>my guess is it will depend on the realtive bilateral trade numbers).
>In the end, I think j-2 routes will have their own ships with j-5
>or j-6 ships being diverted to them for temporary surpluses (though
>a lot of that will be handled by tramps, since that is what they
>exist for).
>

That is not what I ment.  I ment that the jump two ships would deliver to
the worlds that the jump 5 bypassed.  The jump 5s unload into the jump 2s
and lighters for deliveries to the current world and those between the jump
5 depo worlds.  The post was about the use of depos and fast cargo transport.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 09:17:37 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: VR suits

>Ahhhh... the old Virtual Reality Suit... 

One of the Babylon 5 movies had a *lot* of fun with these.

"Holo-brothel" ring any bells?

They had an image of the Captain (not Sheridan, the one after him).

It was "very popular."


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
The reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 07:41:01 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #564

>In a message dated 99-05-04 22:53:23 EDT, cos90@powersurfr.com writes:
>
><< (No, I am not a Scientologist. In fact, I have trouble keeping a
> straight face when thinking about the whole thing.)
>  >>
>
>Why? (If you're wondering I'm an athiest [how ever it may be spelled])
>- -Stephen

So am I. Scientology is one of the most successful con games ever
perpetrated upon the unsuspecting public. It's billed as a form of
therapy, and is very successful in lightening one's wallet. What
they don't want the public to know is what they reveal to long-term
members in good standing, a "truth" about our planet and species that
sounds like a bad science-fiction novel. (Then again, when you consider
who invented Scientology, this should not come as a surprise.)

Take a look on out there on the 'Net for more information. :)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:40:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Manzar References (was Re: Invasion Earth)

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: Invasion Earth
> 
> At 03:08 PM 5/4/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> 
> >> Someone asked what is Invasion:Earth -
> 
> >Silly me, I thought it was a decology of novels by L. Ron Hubbard.  I 
> >like the first two choices better, though.  ;)
> 
> That was _Battlefield: Earth_, and if it was written by the very dead L.
> Ron Hubbard, I'm a Republican canidate for President.

Sorry, Doug, you're right.

Battlefield: Earth was a stand-alone novel written by L Ron Hubbard, 
about three years before he began his big push to put out a 
ten-volume storyline under the title Mission: Earth, the first novel 
of which was The Invaders Plan.  It's been over twelve years since 
I've read either, and I've slept since then, so I think I got 
confused.  :)

Thanks to Doug and Amazon.com, I've learned the most valuable lesson 
from "Real Genius":  Never forget to check your references.

And speaking of references...

ObTrav:  The Manzar References

While docked at a highport where a scientific symposium on
alternative energy generation and control is being held, the PCs are
approached by lesser known member of the scientific community who
wishes to engage their services to "check the references" of a
competitor, Dr Lance Manzar.

1)  Situation is as presented.  Simple reference work, but the 
scientist is too busy to actually check it out and still get his 
demonstration operational on time.

2)  Dr. Manzar has actually stolen the research from the patron, 
and the scientist wants the PCs to reveal their discovery of this 
"independently," to avoid the appearance of sour grapes (bad for 
grants) should the trail be too well concealed.

3)  The scientist is actually a spy from a foreign power, looking for 
late breaking technological information, and will use the PCs 
bumbling attempts to gain the info as a cover for his intrusions into 
the system, leaving them to take the fall.

4)  The scientist is actually an Imperial Internal Security Agent,
and is using the PCs efforts as a cover to gain access to a
particular computer system, setting the PCs up as bait for a sting
operation. 

5)  Dr Manzar's energy containment theories are derived from 
analysis of unreported, possibly stolen, Ancient technology, and the 
patron wants to locate and obtain the artifact used in the research.

6)  During the research, the PCs realize that a side-effect of the 
new technology serves as a capacitor that releases a pulse similar to 
a jump field after being activated for a specific period of time.  
Should the jump pulse occur, the highport, or portions of it, will be 
sent wildly into jumpspace without a jump vector, guaranteed to 
misjump.  The demonstration must be stopped, before its too late!  
(Or, for more selfish PCs, they must escape the jump field radius, 
before they are taken along for the ride!)

Just a thought,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:47:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: MT vs T4 Character Generation

Greetings, All,

I've watched the comparison between MT and T4 with some interest, as 
my current campaign started under MT, but T4 books are more readily 
available for my players to acquire.  So, I have a question for the 
more experienced members of this list, who have played both MT and 
T4.  In specific detail, how does MT character generation stack up 
against T4 character generation?  Which one creates characters with 
more appropriate skills for their career backgrounds?  Which one 
creates more well-rounded characters?  What are the pros and cons of 
each? Which do you like better?  And finally, why? 

Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences with us.  I look 
forward to your replies.

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 08:55:29 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Plastic Rifle by Mattel

>Mattel, who were contracted by the DOD to make stocks for the M-16
>during the Vietnam War, came out with the 'Tuff Stuff' line of childrens
>blocks at the same time, these were (allegedly) made of the same
>plastic, just dyed brighter colors. While this may or may not be urban
>legend, those were astonishingly tough blocks....

 You have *no idea* how weird it is to be issued your new assault rifle by the US Army and have the 'Mattel' trademark logo stamped on the lower receiver! 


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 99 14:41:57 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: MTJ 4:  Lords of Thunder

I am under the impression that MTJ4 has a great deal of material concerning the K'Kree -
 an adventure or something.

The K'Kree are figuring very importantly into my setting, so I'm trying to gather up 
all the source material I can. So while I'm waiting for SJGs release of Alien Races 2, 
I was wondering if anyone out there has a copy of MTJ4 that they would be willing to 
sell - or willing to copy.

I would be very appreciative.

Andy
Akins

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:59:25 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

At 08:47 AM 5/5/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Greetings, All,
>
>I've watched the comparison between MT and T4 with some interest, as 
>my current campaign started under MT, but T4 books are more readily 
>available for my players to acquire.  So, I have a question for the 
>more experienced members of this list, who have played both MT and 
>T4.  In specific detail, how does MT character generation stack up 
>against T4 character generation?  Which one creates characters with 
>more appropriate skills for their career backgrounds?  Which one 
>creates more well-rounded characters?  What are the pros and cons of 
>each? Which do you like better?  And finally, why? 
>

I've never used MT, so I can't actually comment on how well that works, but
from looking at it, it seems like the better system.  It seems more
interesting and capable of providing better detail about the players (If
you use the advanced rules that is).  With T4 I found that the skills that
character received were often inappropriate, arbitrary, and silly.  Things
like Scouts without the sensor skill (Before anyone brings up the support
departments, in M0 the incredible scout bureaucracy wasn't around yet..) ,
merchant captains that never got astrogator, etc...  

However, it was fun rolling upto T4 characters.  I bet it would even more
fun rolling MT though.

On another note, I've tried converting T4 characters to GT using the rules
in GT, and ended up with characters in the 350 point range!  I eventually
came up with some house rules for converting, that dropped this to about
200pts.  Still too much...  Has anyone had better luck with this?  If
people are interested in the house rules, I'll post them...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 08:46:18
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 10:55 PM 5/4/99 -0700, you wrote:

>  FWIW, I don't believe I've seen a proper TML Virus war. Yet?

You don't want to.  both camps are firmly entrenched, and it gets ugly.  If
you like, I'll skip to the inevitable conclusion of these sporadic flamefests:

Pro-Virus: "Who can say what computers will be capable of in three
thousands years?  My handwaves rock!"

Anti-Virus: "Virus violates several fundemantal laws of reality, and is a
stupid idea to begin with.  TNE should be burned."

The Rest of the TML: "Will you *please* give it a rest!?"
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 08:59:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

At 08:19 PM 5/4/99 -0700, you wrote:

>  AFAIK the canon OTU does agree with your sentiment - much of I:E would be
>nonsensical if orbital dominance was capable of being genuinely decisive in
>a limited war on the surface (BTW, what do we assume happened to Terras deep
>meson sites in I:E?).

In starting to write Ground Forces for GURPS (no, I don't have the contract
yet, but I figure better safe than panicked) I'm finding that the only time
you really need to invade is when you face a well-populated world that has
the resources to survive on it's own.

Most worlds will surrender to whatever fleet shows up overhead.  They
either lack the population to offer anything more than a token resistance,
or the world is extremely vulnerable at a single point (such as needing
life support).  This leaves the hi-pop, industrial worlds as the ones that
are likely to resist.

(Side note: IMTU there are no worlds that require mass importation of food
to stave off famine.  If the people are there, there is some way to feed
them.  It might be Yummy Yeast Blobs and Lil' Lisa's Fish Paste, but it is
food.)

Unfortunately, these are the worlds best equipped to defend themselves.

As we've learned in this century, air power alone cannot win a war.  Even
if the Imperium sits in orbit blasting everything that moves, that does not
raise the Sunburst on the surface.  You have to go in and defeat the enemy
in detail.

When it comes to laser fire from orbit, I would think a canny defender
would wait for overcast conditions to launch counter offensives.  GURPS
Vehicles has several types of anti-laser aerosols listed, any one of which
could seriously degrade the effectiveness of orbital fire support.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:10:43 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: hair spray

>"Try one of those industrial sized tree chippers that they use
>to clean up after big storms and the like. [snip]
>	I recall seeing a TV show about just such a case. The
>	details are lost to me now, but bone chips and one or two
>	teeth were found, and I believe that someone went to
>	jail. Isn't forensic work great?


Indeed. That case inspired the method used by one villian to dispose bodies
in the motion picture "Fargo."

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 09:15:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

At 11:23 PM 5/3/99 +0100, you wrote:

>I remember being surprised when I read the Kipling poem, 'cause I'd thought
>that Pournelle had made up the Line Marines March himself.  I asked him
>about that once, and he said it wasn't plagarism because everyone knew he
>liked Kipling (I hadn't).  When I asked him why he hadn't mentioned Kipling
>in the introduction so that people who didn;t know about Kipling's poems
>could enjoy them (because at the time I didn't know any Kipling but the
>Jungle Books) he stopped paying attention to me.

Never question Dr. Dr. Pournelle.  It's not healthy.

If you ever get Larry Niven in a good mood at a Con, ask him about
Pournelle and the German Translator.  Great story.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 09:12:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle...

At 07:22 AM 5/5/99 -0500, you wrote:

>The army also
>tightened up the rifling, which made the M-16 more accurate at extended
>ranges, but the bullet no longer tumbled, making it a much less devestating
>round.

Yet another myth.  The 5.56mm round used by the M-16 series is *not*
designed to tumble.  Anytime a round from any weapon encounters any
resistance whatsoever, it will begin to tumble.

I fired a M-82 .50cal sniper rifle at two sheets of target paper, one at
50m, the other behind the first at 60m.  The second paper showed that the
round was tumbling when it passed through.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Sjolidsforingi, Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins 
Gram, Sverdaheimssambandid
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #566
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 5 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 567



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computers and other things that might be handled in the same way
Re: hair spray
Drop Tanks
Re: Four Day Planet
Re: Telepresense
Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Patrol Cruiser
Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation
Re: Plastic Rifle...
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...
Re: hair spray
Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation
Re: Design Limitations (was Re: solid hydrogen fuel)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Collapsible tank mods (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Computers and other things that might be handled in the same way
Re: Patrol Cruiser
Re: Computers and other things that might be handled in the same way
Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 09:37:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computers and other things that might be handled in the same way

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Does T4 make provishions for intelegant computers (realy smart ones, like the
> Savants from Outpost)?  Would they (along with other "parasites" bio critters
> that are attaced to the human body to help it along (Skrill from Earth: Final
> Conflict to name one)) be handled like other characters with skills and stats
> that evolve?

Hmmm...Traveller hasn't really ever addressed AI's in a very thorough
sense _other_ than in the context of Virus in TNE. T4 certainly does not
have rules for AI's and neither, IIRC, does GT, though you could
probably cobble stuff together from Gurps: Cyberpunk or something. AI in
the OTU is a high tech level (TL-16+) item that's not well developed.

If you want to do them in YTU, I'd suggest scrounging up a copy of
Vampire Fleets, a TNE book. It deals with Virus AI's.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 09:59:17 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: hair spray

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 

> Try one of those industrial sized tree chippers that they use to clean
> up after big storms and the like. Toss a body in the hopper, and bloody
> shreds come out the other side. Feed in some more tree limbs and other
> yard trash, and dump off the load at the composting center. Unless they
> look *soon* they'll never find a trace of the body.
> 

'Soon' can be quite a while. There was a guy in Connecticut who did that
very thing when he killed his wife. He was caught by a combination of
two things: He was seen by the river running the chipper. The problem?
It was night and raining at the time. It was sheer luck that he did this
within view of a witness. 

Once they established the likely scene of the crime, the police went
over that stretch of riverbank and river with a fine toothed comb. They
found a few tiny fragments of bone; with those they were able to get
DNA, and from there establish the identity of the victim. This was
something like 6 months after the crime.

The husband was convicted.

I LOVE TLC and the Discovery Channel! ;-) This was on one episode of
either "New Detectives:Case Studies in Forensic Medicine" (Discovery) or
"Medical Detectives" (TLC)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:55:19 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Drop Tanks

All this discussion about semi-permanent drop tanks won't fly IMTU, unless 
such tanks are actually what MT called "Dismountable," or are built like the 
fuel tankage on the RCES Auroras (purpose built fuel hull attached via 
external grapple). So-called "Drop Tanks" are cheap because, well, they ARE 
cheap. Any ship's Engineers who feel comfortable keeping the permanent fuel 
supplies in light external shells, or who would consider GG skimming with 
such things strapped on, will only get a berth on my ship if their surname is 
either Scott, Torres, or LaForge...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:55:59 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

>
> This property of "tallow-wax" isn't that surprising. *Wax* is good a
> stopping particle type radiation. Mostly because of all the hydrogen
> atoms.
>
> "Tallow-wax" is a *huge* organic molecule (there are comments about it
> being visible in an *optical* microscope). Such a molecule *would* be
> good for shielding against alpha, beta and neutrons.
>
> The main use was for impregnating protective clothings, as it shielded
> better than lead, and was a *lot* lighter and more flexible.
>
> All-in-all, I think Piper did a good job of "designing" tallow-wax.

(sigh) All-in-all, Piper did a *great* job with everything but RL.  What a
sad waste of talent.

douglas

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:03:02 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Telepresense

> - Ok, meson comms can't be jammed (the major problem with TP)
>   but it's a line of sight/point-to-point comm mechanism.
>   If the trooper trips and you lose tracking on his head, poof,
>   connection broken and one trooper lost to an enemy root/stone/
>   stair.  Not to mention that by normal Trav tech progressions
>   the trooper would be TL 16+, where you'd probably already have
>   some better options than remote controlled Tom Servos.


And, what if the unit relayed positional data every mili-second?
Constant re-adjustment of the point to point communication link
could be possible.  [Even if the unit was in free fall or being
tossed about by explosions, as long as the internal guidance 
and positioning system was functional.)

As to artillery taking out command vehicles at 60 miles, I doubt
that such a unit would be exposed.  Under water or in a cave, the
command vehicle's capability would not be seriously impacted.
(The back up satellite link can be remotely set up.)  I'm quite
certain that the  range of the units can also be expanded with
minimal increase in lag time.  If I was the artillery commander,
I would be more worried about the battledress units that were 
over-running my position.  :-)

> Overall, yes, you can do TP over big distances, and maybe you
> could do TP in combat situations, but IMO the amount of time
> and trouble spent developing such an extremely complicated
> system would be better spent doing something more useful, like
> building a massive fleet of dreadnaughts to scare the living
> shit out of your enemy.

A suit can crawl into an enemy bunker or facility and take that
position.  The big scary fleet can only destroy it.

BTW, you may have noticed that I have not mentioned robotics or
AI.  We would not want to step on any cultural values, eh?
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:23:20 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

David P. Summers wrote:
>Tue, 4 May 1999 11:15:20 +0100, "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
>
>I had been thinking about this and outlined vague a short discussion of the
>issue along the lines of making it a strictly optional rule
>where the GM is presented with options ranging from from not
>having drop tanks, to having them but attaching various restrictions,
>to having them and all their consquences (jump staions, collapable
>tanks, using jump fuel for weapons, etc.) which I was going
>to give to whoever wrote Starships.  However, Chris Thrash
>has decided to handle the stituation himself.

I haven't seen anything like that, so how about:

*****

A. IMTU, drop tanks do not exist - even as prototypes - at tech levels
up to 16. Where there are canon references to them (i.e. the Gazelle), I
have varied from canon for that item. I view drop tanks as damaging to
the rest of canon (such as the J-4 X-boat system and the plethora of
non-jump-tank equipped ships).

B. IMTU, drop tanks are available as prototypes at TL15. Where there are
canon references to them, I have deviated from canon slightly, making
those ships among the first to use drop tanks. There is no drop tank
infrastructure in place in the Imperium; so a drop-tank ship that has
dropped its tanks may have difficulty replacing them. Since drop tanks
are only prototypes, they are not yet damaging to canon - but as the
timeline advances, the canon will change to adapt should drop tanks
enter wider service. It has yet to be determined whether or not using
drop tanks is dangerous (which will lead, in time, to a `C' rating); or
if they are safe (which will lead, in time, through `D' to `E').

C. IMTU, drop tanks have been available for some time. However, when a
ship makes a jump using the drop-tank fuel, there is an increased chance
of a misjump (due to the way the jump-field is formed IMTU). This risk
has led to the rejection of jump-tanks for almost all civilian - and a
good proportion of military - ships. X-boat traffic is too valuable to
lose in this way, so the Imperium still operates a J-4 communication
network. There is a military infrastructure supporting drop tank
operation, so fleet supply ships and naval bases will almost always be
able to supply drop tanks. The Gazelle is an example of a military
design that is now available for paramilitary use. Starship insurers
either refuse to insure, or charge high premiums for, drop-tank ships.

D. IMTU, drop tanks have been available for some time. They are as safe
to use as regular tanks, and so most new-build ships - both military and
civilian - are equipped to use them (although they do not have to). The
Imperium is in the process of upgrading the X-boat network, and on
completion the communications speed will maximise at J-6 (although not
all jumps will be that long; allowing special couriers to pass
information quicker than the X-boat network). There is an extensive
military infrastructure for drop tanks (including collection of spent
tanks). The civilian infrastructure is building up, and is established
at major worlds. Minor planets will probably have tanks available; but
not orbital refuelling stations for them et al. The Gazelle was one of
the first drop-ship equipped starships. Insurance for drop tanks is at a
normal premium; and it is quite hard to raise finance for a new ship
unless it is drop-tank equipped.

E. IMTU, drop tanks are old technology - they were invented at TL12.
They are just as safe as regular tanks, and both military and civilian
ships have been using them for some time. The X-boat network is already
J-6. There is an extensive military and civilian infrastructure for drop
tanks, so few are wasted and orbital refuelling common. Most canon ships
IMTU have either been modified to take drop tanks, or do not exist.

*****

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:04:43 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Patrol Cruiser

I'm working on the Classic Type-T Patrol Cruiser again... This time I'm
trying to reconcile the FASA deckplans, the various images of that ship, and
the various stats for the ship. Right now I'm trying to understand the wierd
appendage on the rear of the ship in the images in GURPs Traveller (pages
108 and 123). It is not there in previous images of the ship.  There are
already 4 turrets shown, so it can't be a rear gun-mount.  I think it
*could* be a recreation of a misunderstood drawning of the ship's boat
leaving the rear bay... It does have the right shape to match the FASA
version of the Patrol Cruiser's ship's boat.  any other ideas?

btw: No canon design for it exists at this time in GURPs Traveller... right?

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 13:04:53 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

>On another note, I've tried converting T4 characters to GT using the rules
>in GT, and ended up with characters in the 350 point range!  I eventually
>came up with some house rules for converting, that dropped this to about
>200pts.  Still too much...  Has anyone had better luck with this?  If
>people are interested in the house rules, I'll post them...

I saw this also.  Inherent differences between the systems.  I started
converting my Proper English Twit in Space
(http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/SV/TRAV/bunny.shtml) to GT.  Because
Bunny wasn't very bright, and had intel based skills like leadership, his
point cost went way up.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
          You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:07:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation

Hughes, Michael wrote:
> 
> I really liked the idea of a Virtual Reality Suite (as per Red Dwarf . . .
> save for the whole groinal attachment thing).

Ahhh, that was the best bit...;->
 
> IMTU I tried adapting the idea to a G Tank where the tank can be manipulated
> by a VR program to give someone in a VR environment (and in the tank) the
> sensation of movement or contact. But as I wasn't really sure what a G tank
> did in the first place, I scrubbed it.

A G-tank is a system whereby the crew or passenger is 'drowned' in an
oxygen carrying fluid. The fluid helps make them a single mass, and ths
much more able to withstand high Gee forces. The Forever War by Joe
Haldeman has good descriptions of these devices. And no they would be
terrible unless your VR was 'What it's like to drown'

> Could a chamber lined with G plates and inertial compensators give hooked
> into a VR environment an illusion of movement or contact by adjusting
> varying levels of gravity?

Sure! That would probably work really well.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:11:28 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 

> I think that it could do that by providing restonce, alto I think you might
> be better off using some sort of spinal tape.  Replacint the nural signals
> from the lower body and replacing them with something that is computer
> generated and responsive to the user.

Actually canon Traveller is quite cool to the idea of neural jacks and
other cyber wear. In fact there are specific disadvantages to having
visible cyberwear in many part of the Imperium, forom social shunning up
to and including being declared a machine, not human, and thus not
subject to laws concerning, for instance, slavery.

Mostly this is a literary device to keep Traveller from turnig into
CyberMunchkin 2020, as there is nothing technologically impossible about
most cyberwear in the OTU.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:11:12 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle...

 

>>The army also
>>tightened up the rifling, which made the M-16 more accurate at extended
>>ranges, but the bullet no longer tumbled, making it a much less devestating
>>round.
>
>Yet another myth.  The 5.56mm round used by the M-16 series is *not*
>designed to tumble.  Anytime a round from any weapon encounters any
>resistance whatsoever, it will begin to tumble.

 And the change in powder was more than a decade prior to the change in rifling! The use of ball powder was in 1967-68 when the XM-16E1 was used by the Army, the change in rifling was in 1984-85 to take advantage of the new standard NATO round which performed much better at 1:7 (compared to the previous 1:12). The ball powder problems were corrected before 1971.
 Trust me; the M-16A3 that is used today is superior to the XM-16E1 of 30 years ago.

ObTrav: Should we include the 'growth' of a weapon over time? Should the FGMP-15 have 'glitches' during its first 2-5 years of use until the FGMP-15A1 is released? Should Troopers in BD-12 (augmented) only load the clips for their gauss rifles 90% of capacity to keep the feed mechanism working? Will Imperial Marine and Imperial Army units have small rivalries concerning which sidearm is 'best' that interferes with supply operations? Will colonial and Imperial forces have different names for the same gear, causing confusion? the Soviet Union military called their (if I remember correctly - the sizes may be wrong) 155mm rockets '152mm rockets' so that the rockets wouldn't be confused with 155mm artillery rounds; handy, easy, and potentially confusing.


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:24:49 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

what about O'Brien? :)




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:17:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-04 13:46:56 EDT, you write:
> Does Traveller have FTL comm?
> -Stephen

No. This is the crucial (IMHO) underpinning of the entire OTU...with no
FTL commo, you're flung back into social and governmental structures of
the Age of Sail, 18th century Terra.

When information only travels at the speed of transportation, tightly
controlled centralized government is impossible. Every aspect of the
political structure of the Imperium flows from this point. This is why
you have Knights, Barons, Marquesses and Archdukes. This is why you have
pirates, this is why a LOT in the TU happens as it does.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:21:10 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: hair spray

> I recall seeing a TV show about just such a case. The 
> details are lost to me now, but bone chips and one or two 
> teeth were found, and I believe that someone went to
> jail. Isn't forensic work great?


That yahoo deserved to be caught.  He ran the chipper on
a bridge, while it was raining, at night.  Some passerby
was bound to get curious.  The killer's fatal mistake was
that he rented the chipper using his own credit card.
Bad move.

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:24:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

My Friends,

I would have to agree that one of the things I've noticed in T4
character generation is that, while lots of skills abound, many of
them do not seem to fit the career that's being generated.  The
concept of background skills at age 18 is cool, though.  I also like
the fact that it seems to combine the best of both basic and
advanced career generation from MT.  MT doesn't have the pre-career
opportunities under basic character generation, such as college,
medical school, grad school, military school, etc.  They come in
under -some- advanced character creation systems under MT.  In T4, I
also like the addition of the Psionicist Career under the Psionics
section of the main rulebook, although I have to wing it if someone
moves from one career into Psionics. However, in general, what I've
noticed is that MT seems to create characters with skills more
focused and appropriate to the character's careers than T4 does, and 
was hoping to hear that I was somehow misinformed, or was 
misunderstanding the system somehow.  (I just recently got a copy of 
the main rulebook, and am exploring my options.)

Any other helpful comments would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, and does anyone know if T5 will correct the skill tables so that 
characters are created with skills appropriate and necessary for 
their careers?  Mark, I'd like to make that one of my requests for 
the new system

Thanks for your time,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:01:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Design Limitations (was Re: solid hydrogen fuel)

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Design Limitations (was Re: solid hydrogen fuel)
...
>My take on drop tanks that are "carried thru", is that it'd be done by
>ships operating at reduced *cargo* capacity.

  But don't all Trav versions rate ships by volume? The above would only
cover internal demountable tanks; current drop-tank rules also don't require
the loss of equivalent internal cargo capacity.

  And speaking of internal cargo capacity, drop tanks are really external
cargo tanks for tankers in some cases - so a J-2 1kt tanker could make a
J-1 and deliver an extra 900 Dt of L-Hyd.

...
>drop tanks will be *lighter* than fuel bladders of the same capacity.
>Even if they aren't, you can jettison the tanks far more easily than
>bladders. 

  Also somewhat bizarrely, L-Hyd bladders are by far the cheapest of the
extra tankage options.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:01:41 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>Actually, you _can_ use "collapsible" tankage, you just have to leave it
>behind, because the whole point of the drop tank is to reduce the mass of
>the jumping ship so that you don't need as much fuel.

  But CT doesn't permit collapsible tankage to be used directly for Jump in
any case; it can only be used to fill internal tankage that will itself run
the Jump - a process taking three hours (TCS, p. 13).

>Unless the collapsible tank somehow weighed considerably less than a rigid
>tank (which is highly unlikely, as honeycomb aluminium, for instance, is far
...

  Well, in addition to collapsing to 1% of their filled volume, they also cost
half that of the other added tankage options; I can't say what that implies
about their weight, but Trav must have great cryogenic handling fabrics.

  Oh, and they're not particularly vulnerable to combat damage, apparently.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:13:20 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Collapsible tank mods (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>>  Under CT (in TCS) you can use rigid tankage for Jump, but _not_ collapsible
>>tankage. Where is everyone else (including the authors?) missing the clear
>>implication that the use of collapsible tankage for Jump "follows"?
>
>The problem is that this just doesn't make sense and so it is
>hard to extrapolate.  OTOH, the description just requires
>that you be able to pump the fuel, hence implies that they
>would work.

  So if drop tanks are allowed then collapsible tankage will logically remove
the problems and costs currently associated with drop tanks (including in G:T?)?

  As a reminder, IIRC we're both in the Drop Tanks Are A Bad Idea school,
but if nothing else it's helpful to show people where it can lead to.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:13:25 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

>From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
>Subject: Drop Tanks
...
>This thread is, errrr... great!  Do you guys play the game as recreation, or
>is there money riding on the outcome of the logistics of drop tanks?

  Actually the loser gets sent to the organ-leggers. You mean you didn't
know? Gee, and I just thought you were brave, posting so boldly...

...
>My take is (and remember, I can't be wrong on this, regardless of what
>anyone writes, produces, or says), is that the Imperium has had access to
>DT's from a medium-low TL with other forms of transport, and even to the
>higher TL's I would assume they are available to, even on some starships,
>that close escort for one.  Now, the Empire being what it is, working the
>way it does, I would assume a whole bucket-load of SS's would be equipped
>with DT's if they were feasible.  Apparently, they are not?

  Well, there are other hassles, not the least being some inconsistencies
about where and when they were developed. The Gazelle CE should be a circa
1080-1090 design (and a legal one too, but we won't go there... again) not
a SOTA IY:1100 product

...
>Boom/splat/faze/disappear/whatever?  "Funny, it worked on the computer
>model?  Why did the test ship disintegrate like that?"

  "Wow! Am I glad I took Mothers advice and didn't become a test pilot."

 OTOH, don't listen to Mother about answering alien distress signals...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:36:25 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Computers and other things that might be handled in the same way

>Hmmm...Traveller hasn't really ever addressed AI's in a very thorough
>sense _other_ than in the context of Virus in TNE. T4 certainly does not
>have rules for AI's and neither, IIRC, does GT, though you could
>probably cobble stuff together from Gurps: Cyberpunk or something.


You could definitely "cobble" something together with GURPS: Ultra Tech (I
or II) or GURPS: Robots. The latter is the best for this, since it also
lets you build robots and gives suggestions for running AIs as PCs (and
NPCs).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich (who recently got GURPS Robots secondhand for $1.95)
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 15:06:33 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Patrol Cruiser

At 01:04 PM 5/5/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm working on the Classic Type-T Patrol Cruiser again... This time I'm
>trying to reconcile the FASA deckplans, the various images of that ship, and
>the various stats for the ship. Right now I'm trying to understand the wierd
>appendage on the rear of the ship in the images in GURPs Traveller (pages
>108 and 123). It is not there in previous images of the ship.  There are
>already 4 turrets shown, so it can't be a rear gun-mount.  I think it
>*could* be a recreation of a misunderstood drawning of the ship's boat
>leaving the rear bay... It does have the right shape to match the FASA
>version of the Patrol Cruiser's ship's boat.  any other ideas?
>
>btw: No canon design for it exists at this time in GURPs Traveller... right?

From the illustrations, I believe that it is a docking tube.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:37:46 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computers and other things that might be handled in the same way

In a message dated 99-05-05 12:41:22 EDT, you write:

<< Hmmm...Traveller hasn't really ever addressed AI's in a very thorough
 sense _other_ than in the context of Virus in TNE. T4 certainly does not
 have rules for AI's and neither, IIRC, does GT, though you could
 probably cobble stuff together from Gurps: Cyberpunk or something. AI in
 the OTU is a high tech level (TL-16+) item that's not well developed.
 
 If you want to do them in YTU, I'd suggest scrounging up a copy of
 Vampire Fleets, a TNE book. It deals with Virus AI's. >>

I'll have to keep my eyes open for it, thanks.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:21:36 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

Jason Kemp wrote:

> My Friends,
>
> I would have to agree that one of the things I've noticed in T4
> character generation is that, while lots of skills abound, many of
> them do not seem to fit the career that's being generated.

A fair criticism.  I think this was an intent to make a range of
'life' skills available outside the 'career' because, IIRC, T4
has a point of view that a PC should only have one career.
Thus the penalties for multiple careers.

> However, in general, what I've
> noticed is that MT seems to create characters with skills more
> focused and appropriate to the character's careers than T4 does, and
> was hoping to hear that I was somehow misinformed, or was
> misunderstanding the system somehow.  (I just recently got a copy of
> the main rulebook, and am exploring my options.)

Well, this is a result of the number of skill tables.
MT has 3 for each career for the average joe, a 4th for
high EDU's.  T4 has 6 tables available all the time (though
there is plenty of skill duplication, which varies by career).
I think the T5 beta materials do a better job of focus, but
you still have the 6 tables.

There are dangers in keeping the available skills table too small.
Some skills will never be available to a character, but more
importantly, all the characters generated will begin to look alike.

MM has said that he is investigation adding 'life paths' or something
like that to reflect non-career-oriented activities which might result
in skills, for such things as psionics, serious hobbies, etc.  I look
forward
to seeing what develops in that regard.  There is some great potential.

I've been messing with Chargen a lot lately.  I've come to the
conclusion,
that while a stable core of skill tables is desirable for all careers,
special
access skill tables are also very intriguing and, IMO, add some flavor
to the game.  Some special access tables are: advanced education tables,

the command vs. staff officer tables in HG, the petty officer table in
HG,
the commando table in Merc.  I think it might be interesting to create
additional ones such as High Soc, Race, Psionics, etc.

I'm almost finished with my Advanced Chargen for T4/5, which uses
the advanced chargen from Mercenary, High Guard, and MT (for Scout
and Merchant).  I've tried to keep it so that every year, a character
has four skill tables available:
 - Career Life
 - Shipboard or Planetside (Field or Bureaucracy for scouts)
 - Branch (Where the career lends itself to this.  I haven't resolved
this for civilian careers to my full satisfaction yet, and may use some
of the above ideas)
 - Rank-related or Duty Related  (For the quasi-military careers, this
is officer or NCO, but for the civilian careers like entertainer, noble,
etc, its Routine or Hazard).1

I've also tried to keep the skills available to just those mentioned in
T4/5.

I hope to have the first draft available for review soon.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #567
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 5 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 568



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Patrol Cruiser
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Striker?
Bloo's T4/5 Adv CharGen (was Re: MT vs T4 CharGen)
Core Career Skills
Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation
Re: Four Day Planet
Re: hair spray
Re: hair spray
Re: Plastic Rifle by Mattel
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Plastic Rifle
Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
re: MT vs T4 Character Generation
BITS Website Update 5 May 1999
Shipboard accomodations
Re: Plastic Rifle...
Re: Scientology (was: Re: Invasion Earth)
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation
Re: hair spray
Re: hair spray
Re: Bloo's T4/5 Adv CharGen (was Re: MT vs T4 CharGen)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:34:14 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Patrol Cruiser

In a message dated 5/5/99 10:09:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, pc@perkworks.com 
writes:

<< I'm working on the Classic Type-T Patrol Cruiser again... This time I'm
 trying to reconcile the FASA deckplans, the various images of that ship, and
 the various stats for the ship. Right now I'm trying to understand the wierd
 appendage on the rear of the ship in the images in GURPs Traveller (pages
 108 and 123). It is not there in previous images of the ship.  There are
 already 4 turrets shown, so it can't be a rear gun-mount.  I think it
 *could* be a recreation of a misunderstood drawning of the ship's boat
 leaving the rear bay... It does have the right shape to match the FASA
 version of the Patrol Cruiser's ship's boat.  any other ideas?
 
 btw: No canon design for it exists at this time in GURPs Traveller... right?
  >>

My guess would be the boat bay? I think that the spike sticking out aft of it 
might be a static discharge probe ala the DGP drawing of the free trader 
Beowulf. I could swear that I've seen the picture on pg. 123 before. I looks 
vaguely DGP ish...

BTW; please, PLEASE do deck plans of this baby. Of all the CT original ships 
and craft from book 2; this ship and the Yacht are the hardest to find 
deckplans for. I prefer "classic" square grids, though these days, GT hexes 
are probably more useful...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:35:39 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

In a message dated 5/5/99 10:04:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
GypsyComet@aol.com writes:

<< All this discussion about semi-permanent drop tanks won't fly IMTU, unless 
 such tanks are actually what MT called "Dismountable," or are built like the 
 fuel tankage on the RCES Auroras (purpose built fuel hull attached via 
 external grapple). So-called "Drop Tanks" are cheap because, well, they ARE 
 cheap. Any ship's Engineers who feel comfortable keeping the permanent fuel 
 supplies in light external shells, or who would consider GG skimming with 
 such things strapped on, will only get a berth on my ship if their surname 
is 
 either Scott, Torres, or LaForge... >>

So I guess the great "canon breaker" Gazelle has demountables?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:39:31 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Striker?

In a message dated 5/4/99 11:06:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca writes:

<< 
   You didn't like Striker?
  >>
	Oh god, I loved Striker, but you either had to use the Striker Combat 
Sytstem or the one in the Main Books.    The Striker system would have been a 
good replacement for  the Main system but it didn't always mesh with it 
smoothly.   Striker, after all, was its own self-contained game.    
	So yes, if you used Striker instead of the mods to hit for range and 
armor in the CT main books, you could say that CT had a vehicle combat 
system, but it really wasn't part of the role-playing system.
		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:42:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Bloo's T4/5 Adv CharGen (was Re: MT vs T4 CharGen)

From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation
> 
> Jason Kemp wrote:
> > However, in general, what I've
> > noticed is that MT seems to create characters with skills more
> > focused and appropriate to the character's careers than T4 does, and
> > was hoping to hear that I was somehow misinformed, or was
> > misunderstanding the system somehow.  (I just recently got a copy of
> > the main rulebook, and am exploring my options.)
> 
> Well, this is a result of the number of skill tables.
> MT has 3 for each career for the average joe, a 4th for
> high EDU's.  T4 has 6 tables available all the time (though
> there is plenty of skill duplication, which varies by career).
> I think the T5 beta materials do a better job of focus, but
> you still have the 6 tables.

I have not seen the T5 beta materials, except for the skill lists 
and task system, I believe.  I assume that access to these is only 
granted to playtesters selected by Mark Miller.  Otherwise, I'd love 
to see them.

> There are dangers in keeping the available skills table too small.
> Some skills will never be available to a character, but more
> importantly, all the characters generated will begin to look alike.

True, but the skills necessary to perform the basic tasks of that 
career should still be available under the general tables that all 
have access to.  Otherwise, the NPCs will never be able to do what 
they need to in order to survive in that career.  (PCs always seem to 
find a way, but I generate my NPCs from the book, without that PC 
twist.)

> MM has said that he is investigation adding 'life paths' or something
> like that to reflect non-career-oriented activities which might result
> in skills, for such things as psionics, serious hobbies, etc.  I look
> forward
> to seeing what develops in that regard.  There is some great potential.

I would agree, although I must admit that I'm not sure how it would 
be implemented.  Perhaps as an additional skill table that one could 
choose optionally for the yearly skill alloted to the PC.  Skills 
from commision and advancement should be spent within the career in 
which it was earned.  My thoughts, anyway.

> I've been messing with Chargen a lot lately.  I've come to the
> conclusion,
> that while a stable core of skill tables is desirable for all careers,
> special
> access skill tables are also very intriguing and, IMO, add some flavor
> to the game.  Some special access tables are: advanced education tables,
> 
> the command vs. staff officer tables in HG, the petty officer table in
> HG,
> the commando table in Merc.  I think it might be interesting to create
> additional ones such as High Soc, Race, Psionics, etc.

Agreed, and seem to fit into the T4 style chargen rather easily.  
Simply provides more choices of skill tables for characters to choose 
from.

> I'm almost finished with my Advanced Chargen for T4/5, which uses
> the advanced chargen from Mercenary, High Guard, and MT (for Scout
> and Merchant).  I've tried to keep it so that every year, a character
> has four skill tables available:
>  - Career Life
>  - Shipboard or Planetside (Field or Bureaucracy for scouts)
>  - Branch (Where the career lends itself to this.  I haven't resolved
> this for civilian careers to my full satisfaction yet, and may use some
> of the above ideas)
>  - Rank-related or Duty Related  (For the quasi-military careers, this
> is officer or NCO, but for the civilian careers like entertainer, noble,
> etc, its Routine or Hazard).1
> 
> I've also tried to keep the skills available to just those mentioned in
> T4/5.
> 
> I hope to have the first draft available for review soon.

I would love to see this system, when you are ready to share it with 
us.

Thanks,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:56:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Core Career Skills

Greetings, All,

Based on today's discussions, I am seriously considering retooling 
the skill tables from T4 to at least allow a character the chance to 
possess the skills required to perform their careers once into the 
roleplay aspects of the game.  This will, of course, be for my MTU, 
but I will be sharing what I devise with the TML once I'm done.

So, by career, what are the core skills necessary to properly perform 
the functions of that career?

Any space-faring career will require the basics: Pilot, Sensor Ops, 
Navigation (I think T4 calls it Astrogation), Engineering, Vacc 
Suit, and maybe Commo and Zero-G Env.

Space-faring careers that enter into space combat should probably 
include access to:  Tactics, Gunner.

Merchants will add: Admin, Trading, Broker, Steward, and possible 
Liaison (in T$, did they change this to Diplomacy) and Streetwise.

Scouts would add: Survey, and other Exploratory skills.

Personal combat types should have access to: personal combat skills, 
Tactics and perhaps Recon, Stealth, and other special ops skills.

Vehicle oriented types should also have access to the skills 
necessary to use their weapons, if available.

Doctors should have Medical, and maybe Robotics (for cybernetic 
work).  Scholars should, of course, have Admin and Scholarly skills, 
possibly Research, if it still exists.

Diplomats should have access to Liaison, Languages, and related 
cultural skills.

I'm sure there are many more core skills, and I don't know all the 
career options available in T4 yet.  (I do have Missions of State, 
for Diplomats and Bureaucrats.)

If someone else has already done this, I'd love to share notes, or 
simply use their tables instead.  Why reinvent the wheel?  (Chorus:  
The Long Night, that's why.  :)

Thanks for your time,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:58:12 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

	I liked both the MT and T4 character generation systems.  As a 
general rule I found that that T4 character come out with a greater number of 
skills, and younger in age  (although both systems you end up with alot of 2 
term army majors, just like CT).   T4 has more optional rules that let you 
try for multiple careers, which I don't really like.    I like the breakdown 
of cascade and cluster skills under T4 better than MT too.

		Dave Nelson

		

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:07:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet

In mail you write:

>> This property of "tallow-wax" isn't that surprising. *Wax* is good a
>> stopping particle type radiation. Mostly because of all the hydrogen
>> atoms.
>>
>> "Tallow-wax" is a *huge* organic molecule (there are comments about it
>> being visible in an *optical* microscope). Such a molecule *would* be
>> good for shielding against alpha, beta and neutrons.
>>
>> The main use was for impregnating protective clothings, as it shielded
>> better than lead, and was a *lot* lighter and more flexible.
>>
>> All-in-all, I think Piper did a good job of "designing" tallow-wax.
>
> (sigh) All-in-all, Piper did a *great* job with everything but RL.  What a
> sad waste of talent.

It's worse than you think. His agent had died leaving things in a mess,
so Piper was unaware that he had *two* sales, worth enough to tide him
over. 

One can only hope that Piper was right about reincarnation. 

ps. Major unsolved mystery: What happened to the *reams* of notes and
files Piper kept regarding his universe(s)?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:10:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: hair spray

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "Try one of those industrial sized tree chippers that they use 
> to clean up after big storms and the like. Toss a body in the 
> hopper, and bloody shreds come out the other side. Feed in some 
> more tree limbs and other yard trash, and dump off the load at 
> the composting center. Unless they look *soon* they'll never 
> find a trace of the body."
>
>         I recall seeing a TV show about just such a case. The 
>         details are lost to me now, but bone chips and one or two 
>         teeth were found, and I believe that someone went to
>         jail. Isn't forensic work great?

Well, "bone chips" (usually "bone *meal*") are a normal additive to
compost. And in a properly run composting setup, it'd be hell finding
them, plus, they'd tend to get "eaten" buy the micro-organisms you are
trying to encourage. 

That's why I specified "composting". We have a *huge* composting center
for yard debris and the like here.

But teeth *are* a problem. One of the harder things to get rid of. 

ObTrav: Feed the body into a plasma torch at a recycling center. It'll
be reduced to individual *atoms*, and they'll be sorted by type and
stored. The only thing that anyone will be able to tell will be that
you "flashed" a bunch of organic material. 

Which means that they'll probably film and scan *everything* that goes
into the recycler...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:16:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: hair spray

In mail you write:

>>Improvised weapons can be *really* nasty.
>>
>>ObTrav:  Mercenary ticket to subjugate lower tech planet - but the people
>>there are extremely cleaver.  Lots of potential in turning 'trash' into
>>weapons against the Merc PCs.
>
> All I can say is ....  Dorsai !

Yeah. "Scrap" nickel turnings, plus an old internal combustion
generator equals a nasty way to die. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:21:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle by Mattel

In mail you write:

>>Mattel, who were contracted by the DOD to make stocks for the M-16
>>during the Vietnam War, came out with the 'Tuff Stuff' line of childrens
>>blocks at the same time, these were (allegedly) made of the same
>>plastic, just dyed brighter colors. While this may or may not be urban
>>legend, those were astonishingly tough blocks....
>
>  You have *no idea* how weird it is to be issued your new assault rifle by 
> the US Army and have the 'Mattel' trademark logo stamped on the lower 
> receiver! 

Just think, if the country *hadn't* gone all "anti-war", Mattelk would
have been positioned to make a *fortune* in the toy market with toy
M-16s. 

And given the way things work, I wonder how long it'd be before it was
discovered that the "toy" parts were interchangeable with the real
thing. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:23:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In mail you write:

>>I remember being surprised when I read the Kipling poem, 'cause I'd thought
>>that Pournelle had made up the Line Marines March himself.  I asked him
>>about that once, and he said it wasn't plagarism because everyone knew he
>>liked Kipling (I hadn't).  When I asked him why he hadn't mentioned Kipling
>>in the introduction so that people who didn;t know about Kipling's poems
>>could enjoy them (because at the time I didn't know any Kipling but the
>>Jungle Books) he stopped paying attention to me.
>
> I'm not surprised, kipling is an ancient art that should not discussed with
> those who do not know the secret handshake.
>
> OTrav: "The Man Who would be King", and several other works translate
> perfectly to Traveller

I suspect that "As Easy As ABC" would translate well also. 

Gunga Din is a bit *too* well known. :-)

Checking through my copy of "Barrack Room Ballads", I find a few items
that really should be introduced. For example "Loot" gives some of the
best directions on how to search a low tech dwelling you are ever
likely to find!

BTW, Stirling and Drake stole a *lot* from Kipling in their "The
General" series. They had the above poem, damn near word for word. And
the events described in several others happen in the stories. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:10:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle

 "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:

>I'm not sure why it's a *nasty* piece of folklore. It's not an insult to any
>corporation, or even the M-16 itself. It's not like the Proctor & Gamble
>myths that are put forth by members of a rival corporation for the purpose
>of increasing sales.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P&G myths.

Ha! Ha! Ha! Don't get me started.

ObTrav: Do Hortalez et Cie have similar problems with Zirunkariish?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:03:50 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
>Does T4 have interupts?  How is the T4 system less elegant?

T4 doesn't have interrupts, nor any kind of suspended/held attack.

T4 feels much more quick and dirty, less designed. MT has some interesting
analysis behind it.

I prefer T4.1 (slightly higher tasks above difficult) as proposed by Marc
Miller. MT is a fine (if errata loaded) example of a well written RPG.

You also wrote:

>What is DGP and what is SOM?

Digest Group Publications - the big third party producer in the MT era,
involved in the writing of MT. Publishers of some of the best RPG
supplements ever. Sadly defunct in effect since Roger Sanger bought the
company and wouldn't print any of the supplements.

SOM is the Starship Operator's Manual, Vol 1 which details the Beowulf
class in depth, and describes the technology as related to starships.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:21:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

"Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:
>I've watched the comparison between MT and T4 with some interest, as
>my current campaign started under MT, but T4 books are more readily
>available for my players to acquire.  So, I have a question for the
>more experienced members of this list, who have played both MT and
>T4.  In specific detail, how does MT character generation stack up
>against T4 character generation?  Which one creates characters with
>more appropriate skills for their career backgrounds?  Which one
>creates more well-rounded characters?  What are the pros and cons of
>each? Which do you like better?  And finally, why?

Hmm, I tended to use pseudo random MT and allow players to pick a few
skills to slant the character. Similary, I allowed T4 players to influence
the character. Sometimes I rejuvenated MT characters into T4 by totally the
skills and seeing that they came out to 1.25/year and increased the number
of skills if necessary.

I prefer T4(.1) - the personal combat feels less wargame to me, and the
task system is easier for the players to remember. MT is better laid out,
better checked, and better written. I use a synthesis -

T4.1 with HG starships with MT background.

T4.1 is the first T5 playtest draft which Marc released over a year ago.

Dom
Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:11:02 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS Website Update 5 May 1999

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

The BITS website http://www.bits.org.uk/ has been updated once again.

Those of you who keep an eye on such things will know it is six months
since we rebuilt the BITS website - since then we've had nearly 3000 hits -
anyway we hope it's been useful.

To celebrate the sixth month we've added the following

*101 Starships for GURPS Traveller Release 3
Rob Prior has been beavering away, adding yet more ships to the file, which
now exceeds 167 pages. You'll need the freeware Acrobat Reader 3 to view
the document, but it's still free to download from the archive page (886
kb).

*Conventions Galore
Q-CON 6, Wigcon, and updated information for UK Gamesfest 99. Expanded
details for GenCon UK 99! All the contact info, costs and other information
we can find.

*Minor bug fixes
Not exciting but needed

An offer - BITS is willing to mirror or hold software and text files for
TML or BITS members (obviously, there is an upper limit spacewise to this,
but we'll consider most items). If you want some software or Traveller
material mirrored contact us, and we'll take a look at it. So far, Dave
Nelson, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance and Rob Prior have material held at BITS.
Have a look at the downloads section to get an idea of the quality of the
material we're after.

Dom (BITS Webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:17:16 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Shipboard accomodations

There was a thread not long ago about crew and passenger quarters on real
world ships. Here's the US Navy's latest version. They seem pretty proud of
it:

<http://www.navsea.navy.mil/deckplate/current/articles/berth.htm>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:46:24 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle...

I agree, the new versions of the rifle are wonderful. But pre 71, it sucked.
I do disagree. The rifling from the original test models was tightened.  The
army was very against the size of the round to begin with and it did not
provide the thee accuracy of the m-14, go figure.  So they instituted
changes in the rifling and some other things as I recall.
It was more along the lines of the Army would have preferred a larger
caliber rifle, and did their best to make the point.  No one listened and
they got the original production versions, built to their specs.   One
reason the M-16 is used to teach procurement snafus to poli sci students.
Don't even get me started on the politics of the f-15. A great plane, but
the reasoning behind its construction is slightly twisted.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 22:10:25 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Scientology (was: Re: Invasion Earth)

On Wed, 5 May 1999 02:19:45 -0400, "Sword Worlder"
<swordworlder@clinic.net> wrote:

>Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

>- ----- Original Message ----- 
>From: <SRKOALA@aol.com>: 
>: << (No, I am not a Scientologist. In fact, I have trouble keeping a
>:  straight face when thinking about the whole thing.)
>:   >>
 
>: Why? 

>He created the whole farce on a bet when he was stoned.

... and lost the bet.  The way I'd heard the story, Heinlein
proposed a bet that nobody could come up with a religion so
screwy that nobody would believe it.  Hubbard took the short end
of that bet, and created Dianetics and then Scientology.  Both
"succeeded", and Hubbard was later taken in by his own
Frankenstein's Monster (Scientology).

>: (If you're wondering I'm an athiest [how ever it may be spelled])

Atheist.  You were close.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:27:29 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Shipboard Recreation

In a message dated 99-05-05 13:16:57 EDT, you write:

<< > I think that it could do that by providing restonce, alto I think you 
might
 > be better off using some sort of spinal tape.  Replacint the nural signals
 > from the lower body and replacing them with something that is computer
 > generated and responsive to the user.
 
 Actually canon Traveller is quite cool to the idea of neural jacks and
 other cyber wear. In fact there are specific disadvantages to having
 visible cyberwear in many part of the Imperium, forom social shunning up
 to and including being declared a machine, not human, and thus not
 subject to laws concerning, for instance, slavery.
 
 Mostly this is a literary device to keep Traveller from turnig into
 CyberMunchkin 2020, as there is nothing technologically impossible about
 most cyberwear in the OTU. >>

Well, if a device is used corectaly will not stand out, the part about 
slavery is a nice touch.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:30:04 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-05 17:14:48 EDT, you write:

<< > All I can say is ....  Dorsai !
 
 Yeah. "Scrap" nickel turnings, plus an old internal combustion
 generator equals a nasty way to die.  >>

shocking.  Dorsai, I have heard that some place befor, its a set of novels, 
right?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:31:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-05 17:13:04 EDT, you write:

<< ObTrav: Feed the body into a plasma torch at a recycling center. It'll
 be reduced to individual *atoms*, and they'll be sorted by type and
 stored. The only thing that anyone will be able to tell will be that
 you "flashed" a bunch of organic material. 
 
 Which means that they'll probably film and scan *everything* that goes
 into the recycler... >>

even scanners can have "acidents":)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:47:34 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Bloo's T4/5 Adv CharGen (was Re: MT vs T4 CharGen)

Jason Kemp wrote:

> I have not seen the T5 beta materials, except for the skill lists
> and task system, I believe.  I assume that access to these is only
> granted to playtesters selected by Mark Miller.  Otherwise, I'd love
> to see them.

A nice email to farfutures@aol.com is your best bet.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #568
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 5 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 569



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Core Career Skills
Re: Patrol Cruiser
Adding to Familie Spofulam?
Re: hair spray...
Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...
T4 to GURSPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)
Re: Plastic Rifle by Mattel
Re: Plastic Rifle...
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Plastic Rifle
Re: T4 to GURSPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)
Re: Different brands
[Off-Topic] Found Star Wars figures for sale.
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation
Re: Bloo's T4/5 Adv CharGen (was Re: MT vs T4 CharGen)
Re: Core Career Skills
Hints for MT1
Re: Collapsible tank mods (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:56:49 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Core Career Skills

Jason Kemp wrote:

> Greetings, All,
>
> Based on today's discussions, I am seriously considering retooling
> the skill tables from T4 to at least allow a character the chance to
> possess the skills required to perform their careers once into the
> roleplay aspects of the game.  This will, of course, be for my MTU,
> but I will be sharing what I devise with the TML once I'm done.
>
> So, by career, what are the core skills necessary to properly perform
> the functions of that career?

Jason, don't take this the wrong way, but it seems as if you and I
aren't looking at the same T4.

> Any space-faring career will require the basics: Pilot, Sensor Ops,
> Navigation (I think T4 calls it Astrogation), Engineering, Vacc
> Suit, and maybe Commo and Zero-G Env.

T4 has Environmental Combat which covers hi-G, lo-G, etc.

>
> Space-faring careers that enter into space combat should probably
> include access to:  Tactics, Gunner.
>
> Merchants will add: Admin, Trading, Broker, Steward, and possible
> Liaison (in T$, did they change this to Diplomacy) and Streetwise.

With the exception of Steward (which isn't in T4), and Liason,
which reappears in T4 Pocket Empires, all of those skills are there.
What may be confusing you is Business, which is a Cluster made up
of Trader and Broker.


> Scouts would add: Survey, and other Exploratory skills.

Its there as part of the Exploration Cluster.

> Personal combat types should have access to: personal combat skills,
> Tactics and perhaps Recon, Stealth, and other special ops skills.

Recon is under Exploration Cluster.
Stealth under Clandestine.
Tactics is present in Army and Marine Educational skill table.


> Vehicle oriented types should also have access to the skills
> necessary to use their weapons, if available.
>
> Doctors should have Medical, and maybe Robotics (for cybernetic
> work).  Scholars should, of course, have Admin and Scholarly skills,
> possibly Research, if it still exists.

Medical School gives Medical-3 minimum.
Scholars get Academic-1 upon enlistment, Academic is a Cluster made
up of Instruction and Research.  I wouldn't call Admin a core skill for
a Scholar.

> Diplomats should have access to Liaison, Languages, and related
> cultural skills.

All these are in Diplomat Chargen in Pocket Empires.

> I'm sure there are many more core skills, and I don't know all the
> career options available in T4 yet.  (I do have Missions of State,
> for Diplomats and Bureaucrats.)

You mean Pocket Empires?  MoS is only adventures.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:05:03 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Patrol Cruiser

At 04:34 PM 5/5/1999 -0400, you wrote:

>My guess would be the boat bay? I think that the spike sticking out aft of it
>might be a static discharge probe ala the DGP drawing of the free trader
>Beowulf. I could swear that I've seen the picture on pg. 123 before. I looks
>vaguely DGP ish...

I believe they are from Flaming Eye.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 19:03:53 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Adding to Familie Spofulam?

Do the creators Familie Spofulam keep reins on the
family, or are we free to create a new member?

You see, I have this idea for a musical instrument/weapon
that just *has* to come from Familie Spofulam.  And I
thought a new family member, Ludwig aka Ludwiggy,
would be the perfect architect of this, uhm, 'explosive'
instrument.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:15:56 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: hair spray...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 5 May 1999 8:57
Subject: Re: hair spray


>
>
>>What about puting Poison Oak in a salad?
>
>It's usually hard to get intruders to eat your salad.
>
>Frankie
>
>
>

Unless they are famished from a long night of home intrusion duties...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:33:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Waaay OT: re: Gun Control...

Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:

> > Actually, they are available in the U.S., but only to LEOs and the
> > military (since they're post-May '86 devices).  The're manufactured
> > by Revelation Arms (Roger Loock & Co.) right here in Oregon, just outside
> > Portland.  Roger and the gang will be at our big spring full-auto shoot
> > (the biggest one west of the Mississippi) weekend after next!
> 
> Gee, since it won't be crossing state lines, can Oregon residents get
> them *without* all the federal hassles? :-)

Man, I *WISH*!!!  Unfortunately, the answer is "No."  Any firearm capable
of full-auto fire, or component capable of modifying a firearm to fire
full-auto, that was built in the U.S., or imported into the U.S., after
May, 1986, cannot be legally transferred to civilian ownership.  Exceptions
are granted to licensed Class III firearm dealers, who may purchase such
items as "post-ban samples" upon presentation of a signed letter from the
local Sheriff or Chief of Police, requesting a demo of said firearm or
component.

(FYI, the legal definition of "full-auto" is "more than one discharge of
the firearm per single pull of the trigger."  Since HellFire-type trigger
attachments come in contact with the trigger finger once per shot, they
are legally exempt from the definition.)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:30:40 -0500
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: T4 to GURSPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)

> On another note, I've tried converting T4 characters to GT using the rules
> in GT, and ended up with characters in the 350 point range!  I eventually
> came up with some house rules for converting, that dropped this to about
> 200pts.  Still too much...  Has anyone had better luck with this?  If
> people are interested in the house rules, I'll post them...
> 
>           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
> 

We converted from T4 to GURPS not too long ago ... using the rules as laid out 
in GT.  Most characters (we've been playing about 1 year or so) turned out to 
be only in the 150 - 180 point range ... not too bad for some experienced 
characters.  The only one that I had turn out higher (217 points) was a 
Psionicist.  He had several psi skills and they were expensive to convert over.  
Originally, his character converted over at around 285 points!  I got around this 
by having him buy up his intelligence, and thus lowering the cost of both his 
PSI and his skills ... while achieving similar effects (yes, I know that a higher 
intelligence raised his "perception" roles - but no one is perfect). Plus I inflicted 
a bunch of limitations on his PSI powers like ... Limiting the times he could use 
it per day, and making his teleportation skill take extra time to do.

Anyhow, we've played a couple of times since and no one has had a pbroblem 
so far.  Since I emphasize roleplaying vs. rules this worked well.  Additionally, 
I've been using lots of "difficulty" modifiers, more than usual.  Rarely do they 
find themselves rolling strictly agains their set skills.  There is usually a 3 - 9 
point modifier on their rolls - just for difficutly.

 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:10:41 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle by Mattel

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rick Stump <hyperc@mailcity.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 05 May 1999 15:06
Subject: Plastic Rifle by Mattel


>>Mattel, who were contracted by the DOD to make stocks for the M-16
>>during the Vietnam War, came out with the 'Tuff Stuff' line of
childrens
>>blocks at the same time, these were (allegedly) made of the same
>>plastic, just dyed brighter colors. While this may or may not be
urban
>>legend, those were astonishingly tough blocks....
>
> You have *no idea* how weird it is to be issued your new assault
rifle by the US Army and have the >'Mattel' trademark logo stamped on
the lower receiver!
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---------
<g>

I was just reading this thread, and turned to my flatmate laughing,
saying
"this is a really interesting thread about the M-16 here."....

he replied
"why are they talking about motorways on a traveller list?!?".......

Sometimes I think I'm just too British for this group <g>

keep up the entertainment...

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
visit my web site =>      www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:13:21 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle...

At 04:46 PM 5/5/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I agree, the new versions of the rifle are wonderful. But pre 71, it sucked.
>I do disagree. The rifling from the original test models was tightened.  The
>army was very against the size of the round to begin with and it did not
>provide the thee accuracy of the m-14, go figure.  So they instituted
>changes in the rifling and some other things as I recall.
>It was more along the lines of the Army would have preferred a larger
>caliber rifle, and did their best to make the point.  No one listened and
>they got the original production versions, built to their specs.   One
>reason the M-16 is used to teach procurement snafus to poli sci students.
>Don't even get me started on the politics of the f-15. A great plane, but
>the reasoning behind its construction is slightly twisted.

And then there was the Bradley....

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:14:43 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 6:50 AM
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans


>Unfortunately for your argument, the Cymbeline "chips"  are _not_  just
>mentioned in Survival Margin, they are mentioned in several other places,
>most notably Signal GK.


Signal GK is a TNE book? What other TNE books mention the Cymbeline chip?

>However, the reason it's not mentioned in a lot of places is that it's not
>suppposed to be general knowlege how virus propogates, and your not
supposed
>to run a TNE game without buying or at least reading Survival Margin, just
>as youlre not supposd to run a MegaTraveller game without reading "Hard
>Times"
><grin>


No. I didn't buy Survival Margin when I saw it because when I looked through
it at my FLGS I didn't see much that would be of use to my campaign. It was
simple to run a campaign without it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the copy I
saw seemed to be a stop gap introducing MT players into the upcoming product
of TNE.

It's interesting, though, that in books like Vampire Fleets (that *explain*
how Virus propogates) the Cymbeline chips are never mentioned.

>>I ran a TNE campaign for some time, and never once was I exposed to the
>term
>>Cymbeline, nor did it ever pop into my mind.
>
>Which is like admitting you directed a play without reading the most
>important act, not neccessarily something to be proud of.
><grin>


All of the background material seemed pretty well presented in the TNE
books. I never felt like I missed out on anything.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:22:49 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle


>P&G myths.
>
>Ha! Ha! Ha! Don't get me started.
>
>ObTrav: Do Hortalez et Cie have similar problems with Zirunkariish?


To some extent, yes. On the other hand, a trade war can be fought (quite
legally and acceptably in the 3I) using mercenaries in battle dress armed
with heavy weapons.

Let's see rogue Amway operatives take on P&G with rumors in *that*
environment...


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:23:09 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 to GURSPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)

At 06:30 PM 5/5/99 -0500, you wrote:
>We converted from T4 to GURPS not too long ago ... using the rules as laid
out 
>in GT.  Most characters (we've been playing about 1 year or so) turned out to 
>be only in the 150 - 180 point range ... not too bad for some experienced 
>characters.  The only one that I had turn out higher (217 points) was a 
>Psionicist.  He had several psi skills and they were expensive to convert 
>over.  
>Originally, his character converted over at around 285 points!  I got around 
>this 
>by having him buy up his intelligence, and thus lowering the cost of both his 
>PSI and his skills ... while achieving similar effects (yes, I know that a 
>higher 
>intelligence raised his "perception" roles - but no one is perfect). Plus I 
>inflicted 
>a bunch of limitations on his PSI powers like ... Limiting the times he 
>could use 
>it per day, and making his teleportation skill take extra time to do.

Well, the real point cost problem comes from low IQ/DX high skill
characters.  That's where you get insane numbers.  I think the problem
comes from using the same system to convert CT/MT/T4.  The way skills work
in T4 is very different from MT (which I think is similar to CT...)  In
MT/CT, when you use a skill, you mostly just roll the skill (yes, there's a
bonus for high attribute in MT, but it's small).  In T4 OTOH you always
roll attribute+skill.  Thus, it seems to me that the skill number in T4
shouldn't be translated to a flat number in GT, but rather should determine
the relationship between the attribute and the skill value, in other words
points.  

What I finally settled on, was making a T4 skill of 1 represent a GT skill
at IQ/DX-1.  skill-2 became IQ/DX, skill-3 became IQ/DX+1, and so on.  I
feel that this system gives a better feel for what the skill level means,
and also gives much lower point values for characters, since now a certain
skill level will cost the same for _all_ characters, regardless of attribute.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
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	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
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                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:25:33 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Different brands

Dear Folks -

Christoper Thrash wrote:
>Matter of limited bandwidth -- do you want 3 variations on the 200-dton
>free trader, or 3 different types of ships?

Put three different ships in the sourcebook, then publish the variants here
and/or on a website!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:35:47 -0400
From: dh <dhorizon@total.net>
Subject: [Off-Topic] Found Star Wars figures for sale.

Hi everyone,

 This is Off Topic, but might be of interest to fellow sci-fi
enthusiasts.

 In case anybody is interested, I have found a store near my house that
has a surplus that they are currently selling off of Star Wars figures
and all the Episode I Star Wars figures for $9.98 + tax, as well as the
Episode I models, and most of the Star Wars computer software going for
$15 + tax a package.

 If anyone would like some info, please email me off list. :)

Cheers,
 dhorizon@total.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 19:39:53 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

Michael Houghton wrote:
> 
> Howdy!
> 
> > >Like some famous guy said, you're not really holding the ground until
> > >you can leave a nineteen-year-old with a rifle on it.
> >
> > My former room-dog Black Ice put it this way,
> > 'Until you're on it, you don't own it.'
> >
> When I first read this, it thought I saw:
> 
> ...dog...
> 'Until you pee on it you don't own it'
> 
Which explains my urge to urinate during a cross-border patrol into Iraq
in 1991, about a week before the ground offensive began.  I was just
marking my future territory....

> :)
> 
> yours,
> Michael
> --
> Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
> herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
> Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
>                           | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:40:42 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

Dear Folks -

Dom wrote, re. T4:
>Most playable Traveller Personal combat system

Sorry. I should have mentioned that I agree with this. My beef is simply
that it is not scalable.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:53:54 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

At 4:12 AM -0700 5/5/99, Traveller-digest wrote:
Wed, 5 May 1999 18:37:44 +1000, "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
[On the problems with drop tanks...]
>This thread is, errrr... great!  Do you guys play the game as recreation, or
>is there money riding on the outcome of the logistics of drop tanks?

Well, no I do play it for fun.  However, settings that I can't
believe in are, to me, not any more fun than a book that if
find implausible.  Since not having them seems a smaller
change than keeping them and fixing them (and doesn't introduce
handwaves that you just have to stretch you suspension of
disbelief to accept), that is where I come down.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:55:52 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Wed, 5 May 1999 23:00:07 +1200, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

>Actually, you _can_ use "collapsible" tankage, you just have to leave it
>behind, because the whole point of the drop tank is to reduce the mass of
>the jumping ship so that you don't need as much fuel.

The point of drop tanks is to allow more fuel without increasing
the _volume_.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:05:27 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

Jason Kemp wrote:

>I would have to agree that one of the things I've noticed in T4
>character generation is that, while lots of skills abound, many of
>them do not seem to fit the career that's being generated.

Out of the 10 careers (360 skill listings), I only found 9 skill
listings I thought questionable.  not too bad a percentage.  And 4 I
thought were missing.  which ones do you see as questionable??

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:05:45 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Bloo's T4/5 Adv CharGen (was Re: MT vs T4 CharGen)

Jason Kemp wrote:

>True, but the skills necessary to perform the basic tasks of that
>career should still be available under the general tables that all
>have access to.  Otherwise, the NPCs will never be able to do what
>they need to in order to survive in that career.  (PCs always seem to
>find a way, but I generate my NPCs from the book, without that PC
>twist.)

Page 21 has 4 options for determining skills, for PCs I use option 2 or
3.  For NPCs I use option 4, that way I get the NPC I want.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:06:08 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Core Career Skills

Jason Kemp wrote:

>So, by career, what are the core skills necessary to properly perform
>the functions of that career?

On a similar note check out the college degree stuff I wrote
http://home.att.net/~hensley.cr/Traveller/
 under house rules, and give me your oppinions, additions, comments,
etc.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:39:16 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Hints for MT1

Dear Folks -

DonM asked:
>Heck, hints for the first game would be helpful.  I got to a certain
>point, then get blown up.

1.   Have a character with Intrusion.
2.   Buy an FGMP (or is that PGMP) from Efate.
3.   Ship it somewhere with a high Law Level - "Alell" springs to mind.
4.   Give it to the Intrusion character. With enough attempts, they can
smuggle the weapon past Customs. "No officer, that's not a fusion gun, it's
just a French loaf!"
5.   Sell the weapon for a huge profit.
6.   Go back and buy 2 fusion guns.
7.   Repeat steps 3-6.
8.   When you have enough cash, upgrade to J2.
9.   Whenever you get into personal combat:
     a.   Freeze the action.
     b.   Assign every PC to a target.
     c.   Take control of the PC with the fusion gun (or grenade launcher)
and the best skill.
     d.   Restart the action and blast away!

(spoiler alert)






The target is to get the key (swipecard) for the locked building on Efate.
This is somewhere (sorry, I forget exactly where) in the far cluster of
systems. You also need good weaponry because the bad guys on Efate have
plasma guns and battledress. It *is* Law Level 0, after all!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:12:19 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Collapsible tank mods (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

Wed, 05 May 1999 11:13:20 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>  So if drop tanks are allowed then collapsible tankage will logically remove
>the problems and costs currently associated with drop tanks (including in
>G:T?)?

>  As a reminder, IIRC we're both in the Drop Tanks Are A Bad Idea school,
>but if nothing else it's helpful to show people where it can lead to.

Well, one of the ironies of the internet is that talking about
all the things we agree on is condsidered "me too" posts and
a waste of bandwidth.  :-)

I agree that the issue shows the magnitude of the "drop
tank" issue.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #569
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, May 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 570



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: T4 to GURSPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)
Re: Plastic Rifle
Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions
Four Day Planet thought
Re: Four Day Planet thought
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
RE: Shipboard Recreation
Scanned MT rules?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #566
Re: BD
Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation
Re: Plastic Rifle...
Re: VR suits
Agri Colony
Re: Striker?
Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Shipboard Recreation
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
Re: Invasion Earth (Was: A-10 versus MBT? )
Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions
Re: hair spray
Re: hair spray
Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 21:10:23 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> In a message dated 5/5/99 10:04:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> GypsyComet@aol.com writes:
> 
> << All this discussion about semi-permanent drop tanks won't fly IMTU, unless 
>  such tanks are actually what MT called "Dismountable," or are built like the 
>  fuel tankage on the RCES Auroras (purpose built fuel hull attached via 
>  external grapple). So-called "Drop Tanks" are cheap because, well, they ARE 
>  cheap. Any ship's Engineers who feel comfortable keeping the permanent fuel 
>  supplies in light external shells, or who would consider GG skimming with 
>  such things strapped on, will only get a berth on my ship if their surname 
> is 
>  either Scott, Torres, or LaForge... >>
> 
> So I guess the great "canon breaker" Gazelle has demountables?

IMTU, yeah.  And they ain't cheep.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:28:42 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 to GURSPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)

It should be noted that the rules for conversions to GURPS
were not, from my exposure to how they were arrived at, intended
to be (or was if felt is was possible to come up with) a mathmatically
certain proccess.  The idea was to give guidelines for someone
to come up with characters that are generally like the one
being converted.

It can, as you mention, produce characters
that are off what one would design from the ground up and
so may have an odd point total.  It should be possible to
use these as designed without much problem.  But the point
is simply for groups to get what they want and if it works
for GMs to tweak them, then that is what they should do.

They also allow someone to use certain rules found in
one sorce book for the other system.  So that if Traveller
says that NPC pilot has Pilot-4, then you know what skill
to give him if you are running a GURPS campaign.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:31:18 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
>  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:
> 
> >I'm not sure why it's a *nasty* piece of folklore. It's not an insult to any
> >corporation, or even the M-16 itself. It's not like the Proctor & Gamble
> >myths that are put forth by members of a rival corporation for the purpose
> >of increasing sales.
> 
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> P&G myths.
> 
> Ha! Ha! Ha! Don't get me started.
> 
> ObTrav: Do Hortalez et Cie have similar problems with Zirunkariish?
> 
Well, in Vilani-dominated regions, there _are_ all those stories linking
Hortalez et Cie to funding of rebellious Solomani elements on Terra....

(See GT:BtC, pg. 23, if this reference doesn't make sense to you.)

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:29:52 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

Dear Folks -

SRKOALA asked:
>KBv2?

Version 2 of Kenneth Bearden's task system for T4.

>  What are the three differing combat scales?

1. Personal combat, using personal (man-portable) weaponry.
   In T4, run using the std personal combat rules.

2. Vehicular combat.
   In T4, run using rules from CSC (? the vehicle design system, anyway)
and Emperor's Arsenal.

3. Space combat.
   In T4, run using std starship combat system or Bruce's Definitive Sensor
Rules, etc.

At least, in MT, you could use the same rules. A gauss rifle is Pen 7,
FGMP-15 is Pen 34, RPY gun is Pen 67 or therabouts, and a ship's fusion gun
is Pen 103 (great for mounting in tanks!). Cloth armor is AV 5, battle
dress-15 is AV 18, a scout ship is AV 40, a tank is AV 67 or therabouts,
and max ship armour is 75 at TL 15.

TNE also scales up, but uses linear armour, so tanks have AV 200 or more
(someone mentioned making destroyers AV 2000+!). For my liking, a little
too much like the "mega-damage" rules from Rifts. YMMV.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 21:51:42 -0400
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Four Day Planet thought

A random thought about the "Four Day Planet" world that has been
proposed.  There are two habitable zones on the planet: the dawn and
dusk zones.  Both could be home to migrating species/cultures.  They
would be completely isolated from each other, communicating only by
dropped messages that can take extreme heat/cold.  I'm imagining herds
of K'kree and G'nak chasing each other in eternal circles...

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 22:14:30 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet thought

Doug Sinclair wrote:

> A random thought about the "Four Day Planet" world that has been
> proposed.  There are two habitable zones on the planet: the dawn and
> dusk zones.  Both could be home to migrating species/cultures.  They
> would be completely isolated from each other, communicating only by
> dropped messages that can take extreme heat/cold.  I'm imagining herds
> of K'kree and G'nak chasing each other in eternal circles...

I was thinking something similar but more ancient.  Like the story about
the ants and the grasshoppers.  One race sowes the fields while the other
reaps the benefits.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:25:18 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

>> > >Like some famous guy said, you're not really holding the ground until
>> > >you can leave a nineteen-year-old with a rifle on it.
>> >
>> > My former room-dog Black Ice put it this way,
>> > 'Until you're on it, you don't own it.'
>> >
>> When I first read this, it thought I saw:
>> 
>> ...dog...
>> 'Until you pee on it you don't own it'
>> 
>Which explains my urge to urinate during a cross-border patrol into Iraq
>in 1991, about a week before the ground offensive began.  I was just
>marking my future territory....

That reminds me... is it true that when a Vargr crew first lands on
a new, unclaimed planet, they mark the territory for their particular
Vargr government by...

... never mind.

:-D


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:23:19 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Shipboard Recreation

Dear Folks -

Michael said:
>Could a chamber lined with G plates and inertial compensators give hooked
>into a VR environment an illusion of movement or contact by adjusting
>varying levels of gravity?

The PC's in my campaign have sponsored a RIT student project to create such
a device. A simple "holodeck" should be quite achievable at TL 15. Add some
TL 16 "manipulators" and it becomes even more real. I ruled that this is
achievable, since research projects at TL 15 should be on the cutting edge
of creating TL 16 technology - why not? Import a researcher from Vincennes
and you're set.

Run it by the MT research rules, make sure it is a monetary "black hole"
for the PC's to pour their hard-earned credits down, have the PC's
constantly pestered for more money by the odd geek that "rings" up, have
them travel back to Rhylanor to allow a bunch of students into their ship
to rig up various prototypes (can you say, "Paranoia's R&D Division"?
Scarey, huh?!!) - I found it was a great addition to the campaign.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 21:38:32 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Scanned MT rules?

Hello, 
Before I set done to do all this myself, has anyone else scanned in the MT
rules and applied the errata? I have the full set and this would be for my
use only. It would be nice if I could keep a copy of the rules on my Power
Book for example...

Thanks,

William
- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:46:12 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #566

>>  FWIW, I don't believe I've seen a proper TML Virus war. Yet?
>
>You don't want to.  both camps are firmly entrenched, and it gets ugly.  If
>you like, I'll skip to the inevitable conclusion of these sporadic
flamefests:
>
>Pro-Virus: "Who can say what computers will be capable of in three
>thousands years?  My handwaves rock!"
>
>Anti-Virus: "Virus violates several fundemantal laws of reality, and is a
>stupid idea to begin with.  TNE should be burned."
>
>The Rest of the TML: "Will you *please* give it a rest!?"

In any role-playing environment, there is always the requirement for some
suspension of disbelief. There was a time in a Champions game (genre: comic-
book superheroes) I was in, in which two players got into a heated discussion
over whether something-or-other was possible given the laws of physics. The
discussion abruptly ended when I pointed out that we were playing in a
universe
in which there were a large number of people who could do things like fly,
lift and throw large trucks, and shoot destructive energy beams from their
hands.

When it comes to Virus, who cares how "real" it is? The point is, does it
serve a useful game purpose and/or help tell a good story. If you think 
it does, then use it. If you don't think so, then don't use it. Me, I
think it was a fun idea -- but the G:T campaign I recently started is
in a universe where the Virus will never exist, because it doesn't fit
with the universe as I "designed" it for MTU.   :)
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 23:13:34 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: BD

In a message dated 99-05-05 03:51:32 EDT, you write:

<< You reckon?  I imagined the warrior creed was big and strong in the Empire
 (it was in MTU, YKMV)!  BD was warrior's armour, it had two purposes, 1)
 Protect the wearer somewhat,and 2) Get covered in the enemies blood!  What's
 all this talk about taking Imperial troopies out of the battle?  Sheesh! >>

I guess it comes from applying to technology in the most practial form, alto 
that tech would make wars much more common and just about nobody would get 
killed.
- -Stephen 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 13:33:23 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

Dear Folks -

Julian said:
>I've never used MT, so I can't actually comment on how well that works,
but
>from looking at it, it seems like the better system.  It seems more

I've never rolled up a character under T4, but from looking at it I think
MT (really a Bk 4-7 rewrite) makes more interesting characters. T$ looks
like it is an attempt to combine elements of the Extended Chargen (MT)
rules with the original Book 2 (CT) rules. Like many compromises, it has
good and bad points.

If you like T4 but want more choice, you may consider using the
points-based system from Phillip MacGregor's _Dark Star_ magazine, issue
#1.

If you like MT but want more choice, alter the skills tables by adding more
Cascade skills. I created MT chargen systems for Planetary Police and the
MoJ, and in both cases the 'branch-specific" tables ONLY contain Cascade
skills. This allows both randomness as to the general direction of skill
choice, combined with allowing the player's to choose their final skill.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 13:40:20 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle...

Dear Folks -

Thus spake Doug:
>I fired a M-82 .50cal sniper rifle at two sheets of target paper, one at
>50m, the other behind the first at 60m.  The second paper showed that the
>round was tumbling when it passed through.

So *you're* the reference Frank Chadwick used when he wrote that Challenge
article?

[The event you detailed is mentioned in an article about weapon effects and
why certain decisions were made in the TNE weapon rules.]
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 22:22:14 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: Re: VR suits

At 09:17 AM 5/5/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Ahhhh... the old Virtual Reality Suit... 
>
>One of the Babylon 5 movies had a *lot* of fun with these.
>
>"Holo-brothel" ring any bells?
>
>They had an image of the Captain (not Sheridan, the one after him).
>
>It was "very popular."
>
>
Wasn't Captain Lockley especially popular with women? :)
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:01:47 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Agri Colony

25 People; 17 Workers, 8 Kids
1xCommand Center	5	-50
1xResidence		1(6)	20	(-30)
1xMedical Center	2(8)	20	(-10)
1xDIRT			3(11)	20	(10)
2xAgridome		2(13)	40	(50)
1xTakamak		-	-250	(-200)
1xGarage		3(16)	40	(-160)
1xTrade(Agri)		1(17)	10	(-150)

Garage:
1xEvac
1xConvec
2xBaracuda/Lynx (Light Combat Unit)                              
1xScout
1xCargo Truck                                 
                               
                                
                                 
                                 
         _____   _____   _____         ___          
        |Agri |=|Cmnd |=|Pol  |=======|Fsn|                   
        |_____| |_____| |_____|       |___|                    
     _   __|__   |__   __|             |   
    |_|=|Agri |=|Res|=|Med|           |_|<----Guard Post       
    /|\ |_____| |___| |___|                           
     |   __|__   |__   |
     |  |Subpn|=|Trd|=|_|<----Guard Post
     |  |_____| |___|                            
     |
     +--------Guard Post          

(View in Notepad or MS-DOS edit)
This is a small trading colony that I came up (it fallows the "rules" in 
Outpost II) it exsports 120Mw and food for 190 people, it has three guard 
posts for defence.  The only problems is that it does not have any med 
faclitys, nor emergany respons systems, as the colony is able to exspand 
adishanal buildigns will be added.
Questions, comments, just ask.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 21:15:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Striker?

>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Striker?
...
>	Oh god, I loved Striker, but you either had to use the Striker Combat 
>Sytstem or the one in the Main Books.    The Striker system would have been a 
>good replacement for  the Main system but it didn't always mesh with it 
>smoothly.   Striker, after all, was its own self-contained game.    

  Well, once I saw that Striker was a compatible expansion (and the related
JTAS article) I dropped the "Characters & Combat" section real fast. And for
those who didn't want all the heavy iron you could achieve the same effect
by simply buying "Snapshot" - another game that has aged pretty gracefully.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 14:13:08 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

Dear Folks -

Dom mentioned:
>Digest Group Publications
>Sadly defunct in effect since Roger Sanger bought the
>company and wouldn't print any of the supplements.

BTW, can *anyone* spill the beans and tell me exactly how much Roger wants
for the company? I know a few people on this list have hinted at "silly
money" (Marc apparently approached him about it), but what range are we
talking about?

US$10,000?

US$50,000??

US$100,000?!!?

Even higher??!!!!!??
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:15:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipboard Recreation

In a message dated 99-05-05 22:39:56 EDT, you write:

<< Run it by the MT research rules, make sure it is a monetary "black hole"
 for the PC's to pour their hard-earned credits down, have the PC's
 constantly pestered for more money by the odd geek that "rings" up, have
 them travel back to Rhylanor to allow a bunch of students into their ship
 to rig up various prototypes (can you say, "Paranoia's R&D Division"?
 Scarey, huh?!!) - I found it was a great addition to the campaign. >>

What are the MT research rules?  What is "Paranoia's R&D Devision?"
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:17:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

In a message dated 99-05-05 22:28:24 EDT, you write:

<< >> ...dog...
 >> 'Until you pee on it you don't own it'
 >> 
 >Which explains my urge to urinate during a cross-border patrol into Iraq
 >in 1991, about a week before the ground offensive began.  I was just
 >marking my future territory....
 
 That reminds me... is it true that when a Vargr crew first lands on
 a new, unclaimed planet, they mark the territory for their particular
 Vargr government by...
 
 ... never mind.
  >>

Could make an interesting campain detail, if rather crude.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:18:28 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth (Was: A-10 versus MBT? )

>   AFAIK the canon OTU does agree with your sentiment - much of I:E would be
> nonsensical if orbital dominance was capable of being genuinely decisive in

OTOH there is the extreme effectiveness of lasers in general in the OTU.  

> a limited war on the surface (BTW, what do we assume happened to Terras deep
> meson sites in I:E?).

Were they "invented" (in Real Life) before I:E?  If *I* was the Solomani 
chief, i'd have had a dozen on Terra and a few more on the moon.  Probably at 
least one on Mars, too.

>   A good chunk of that issue wrt orbital gunships might be attributed to
> the sorts of beam weapons that work best in various conditions. IIRC, a
> meter wide X-ray laser is going to suck if shot into most atmospheres, and
> high energy weapon bolts are going to be ineffective in both directions.

What about interface?  Firing from orbit, etc? 

> The other question is how far can a non-TNE "spotlight shaped" laser (i.e.,
> the stubby-barrelled sort in Striker) reach effectively without either grav
> focussing or a much wider aperture?

Using what rules?  IIRC, 3G3 uses "tubes" though i don't remember the 
technobabble is attributed to it.  Not very effective at all w/ FF&S.  How 
does G:V treat lasers?  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:20:41 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

In a message dated 99-05-05 21:46:59 EDT, you write:

<< >  What are the three differing combat scales?
 
 1. Personal combat, using personal (man-portable) weaponry.
    In T4, run using the std personal combat rules.
 
 2. Vehicular combat.
    In T4, run using rules from CSC (? the vehicle design system, anyway)
 and Emperor's Arsenal.
 
 3. Space combat.
    In T4, run using std starship combat system or Bruce's Definitive Sensor
 Rules, etc.
 
 At least, in MT, you could use the same rules. A gauss rifle is Pen 7,
 FGMP-15 is Pen 34, RPY gun is Pen 67 or therabouts, and a ship's fusion gun
 is Pen 103 (great for mounting in tanks!). Cloth armor is AV 5, battle
 dress-15 is AV 18, a scout ship is AV 40, a tank is AV 67 or therabouts,
 and max ship armour is 75 at TL 15. >>

Can it be intergrated?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:33:26 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-05 07:14:50 EDT, you write:

<< Try one of those industrial sized tree chippers that they use to clean
 up after big storms and the like. Toss a body in the hopper, and bloody
 shreds come out the other side. Feed in some more tree limbs and other
 yard trash, and dump off the load at the composting center. Unless they
 look *soon* they'll never find a trace of the body. >>

Messy, rotavators (lots of spinning blades), disks (heavy sharp rotating 
disks), ect.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:36:23 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-05 07:15:04 EDT, you write:

<< Far to obvious. And the symptoms appear too soon.
 
 Check out one of Leslie Fish's "after things fell apart" type filk
 songs: "Rhododendron honey". It tells of the small town of survivors
 who get a visit from a heavily armed gang that thinks it looks like a
 good place to take over. The townsfolks don't put up a fight. They fix
 a big meal and some of them (mostly the older folks) sit down with them
 to eat it while everyone else is busy serving. Among other dishes, they
 serve rhododendron honey, and amanita stew... Afterwards, the dead
 volunteers are buried with great ceremony, and the dead thugs are
 chucked into the old mineshaft outside of town. 
 
 *Never* piss off folks familar with the local plants and animals, when
 you *don't* have backup. If they are willing to die to take you out,
 the above (or *worse*) can happen. 
 
 What could be worse? Maybe they know about something like curare. So
 they've just paralyzed everybody who ate the meal. They can then give
 the antidote to their folks. Which leaves you, concious, and paralyzed,
 at their mercy. Or lack thereof.
 
 ps. For those who haven't figured it out by this point, rhododendron
 flowers contain something that makes honey made from their nectar
 *poisonous* to humans. And "amanita" refers to the Amanita ????
 mushroom. Tasty, and a *nasty* way to die.  >>

We are not nice people, are we?  What about spiders (black widows), ect?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 14:39:21 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

Dear Folks -

Jason said:
>MT doesn't have the pre-career
>opportunities under basic character generation, such as college,
>medical school, grad school, military school, etc.

Um, yes it *does*, in a section just prior to the Advanced chargen rules,
and near the bit about Brownie points (an excellent idea to further assist
a player in tweaking what would otherwise be too much of an arbitrary
die-rolling session. IMHO, of course. ;-).

>In T4, I also like the addition of the Psionicist Career

Yes, it fits well into M0 and probably into the Regency of TNE. A modified
undercover version would be useful for CT/MT.

>However, in general, what I've
>noticed is that MT seems to create characters with skills more
>focused and appropriate to the character's careers than T4 does

Brownie points and more skills tables (10 or 11 per career, not just the
arbitrary 6 in T4) make MT a better system. You just couldn't fit it into a
T4-sized rulebook, that's all.  ;-)  Actually, I *like* the extra
professions that T4 offers (also one of the more intriguing ideas to emerge
from TNE!). Now all you need is to make MT Extended Chargen versions for
each of them.  ;-)

You mentioned it was difficult to work out how to transfer from a
profession to the Psionicist. One thing that is good about the TNE rules is
this ability to transfer between professions - MT only allows transfer
between branches (and only if "cross-trained"). I believe that T$ also
allows multiple professions?

Dave Nelson said:
>I like the breakdown
>of cascade and cluster skills under T4 better than MT too.

Dave reminded me of something: I have to admit that I tweaked the MT
Cascade lists, adding a few things here and there that I thought *should*
have been available under the listed heading. But then, everyone tweaks
things, right? ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #570
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, May 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 571



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Populashion Modeling
Re: Hints for MT1
Re: Telepresence
Re: VR suits
Re: Core Career Skills
Re: Telepresence
Re: Populashion Modeling
Re: Copyright
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: MT vs T4 CharGen
Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #564
Re: hair spray
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: hair spray...
Re: Core Career Skills
Re: Scientology (was: Re: Invasion Earth)
Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions
Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two) 
Re: hair spray
Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...
Re: Invasion Earth
Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two) 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:44:07 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Populashion Modeling

>does anyone know a good system for modeling the populashion of a small group,
>detailed enuff so that you could come back in ten years and you would see the
>grow of the populashion as indivuels and how the modife the populashion,
>carring capacity in importaned.

Well, populations of things like bacteria in an unlimited growth medium can
be modelled by an exponential function. Anything more complex than that
depends highly on external conditions.

A good system for modelling the population of a small group of
technologically advanced sophonts in a starfaring civilization is just to
pick whatever population suits the dramatic need.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:45:16 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hints for MT1

Were can I find these games?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:48:20 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

The big problem with combat telepresence IMTU is the probability of an
enemy taking over control of your weapons by remote control.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 00:51:12 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: VR suits

Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> writes:
>At 09:17 AM 5/5/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Ahhhh... the old Virtual Reality Suit... 
>>One of the Babylon 5 movies had a *lot* of fun with these.
>>"Holo-brothel" ring any bells?
>>They had an image of the Captain (not Sheridan, the one after him).
>>It was "very popular."
>Wasn't Captain Lockley especially popular with women? :)

Well, according to the shop's owner...yes.  :-)

Note that Garabaldi did not mention that part when he told her that her
image was very popular.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Practice random acts of intelligence & senseless acts of self-control.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:52:34 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Core Career Skills

In a message dated 99-05-05 21:05:35 EDT, you write:

<< On a similar note check out the college degree stuff I wrote
 http://home.att.net/~hensley.cr/Traveller/
  under house rules, and give me your oppinions, additions, comments,
 etc. >>

Makes sense, I checked out your FF&S LS rules, and I would like you to check 
out the fallowing page:
http://science.nas.nasa.gov/Services/Education/SpaceSettlement/designer/regen.
html

I'm not saying that that you're wrong, but you might want to check it out, 
there is alot of neat stuff on the web page.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:54:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Telepresence

In a message dated 99-05-06 00:51:24 EDT, you write:

<< The big problem with combat telepresence IMTU is the probability of an
 enemy taking over control of your weapons by remote control. >>

Good point, and the game I belive.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:56:59 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Populashion Modeling

In a message dated 99-05-06 00:47:19 EDT, you write:

<< Well, populations of things like bacteria in an unlimited growth medium can
 be modelled by an exponential function. Anything more complex than that
 depends highly on external conditions.
 
 A good system for modelling the population of a small group of
 technologically advanced sophonts in a starfaring civilization is just to
 pick whatever population suits the dramatic need. >>

Thanks.  I'm working on a project that takes data from The World Almanac and 
data from the Cali Census (anglo-saxton pop, the others have to much 
imagrashion) and determin the birth and death rates (for each age) once I get 
done with them I'll post them, they should be one with in the next few days.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:41:54 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright

At 10:32 PM 5/3/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>>Hmm.  I've heard this somewhere before . . .
>
>The Zho's are either the most repressive society out *or* the most
>enlightned and cring for their citizens. Possibly both...
>
>>> Hmm. It is stated explicitly in GT AR1. Not sure about the CT
manual but I
>>> suspect that is also the case.
>>Haven't yet got the former, and the latter is in my hardcover
compilation
>>of all the AMs, behind a glass case, under guard, surrounded by a
moat.
>
>Ditto mine, except for the moat and the guard ;-)

	Good. Where do you live?
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 00:20:41 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 08:14 PM 5/5/1999 -0400, Chris Seamans wrote:

>Signal GK is a TNE book? What other TNE books mention the Cymbeline chip?
Signal GK is CT Adventure 13, the last of the LBB adventures.

I believe that Survival Margin said that either Lucan's or Dulinor's fleet 
bombarded and completely destroyed the surface of Cymbeline late in the war.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:17:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 CharGen

On 05/05/99 15:42:19 Jason Kemp wrote:
>
>I have not seen the T5 beta materials, except for the skill lists 
>and task system, I believe.  I assume that access to these is only 
>granted to playtesters selected by Mark Miller.  Otherwise, I'd love 
>to see them.
>
Are the T5-Beta skill lists and task system available for dissemination, 
'cause I'd love to see them if they are.  However, even if they are not, I 
still have a question: is the T5-Beta task system similar to the T4.1 
system (including half-dice, skill+stat, etc.) or is it something new (or 
perhaps something old- i.e. MT)?  I was never fond of the T4/4.1 task 
system, eventually dropping it in favor of my own somewhat-simplified-and-
tweaked version of MT, and would be heartened to find out it's not being 
carried over into the new edition.

Thanks,

Trent
  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:21:12 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two)

In a message dated 99-05-05 07:14:23 EDT, you write:

<< Much the way the official Virus did. They started with the intelligent
 silicon life form, and modified it into a weapon. Only it got away from
 them. 
 
 Sort of like an *intelligent* "gray goo" accident. "Gray goo" being the
 generic term for a runaway nanotech organism.  >>

I have not heard of "gray goo" but the idea of something like that or other 
AIs (yes, I do like them) and ALs getting fisty and desides to run away is 
very interesting, and dangeruse (sp?).
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:25:46 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #564

In a message dated 99-05-05 09:47:21 EDT, you write:

<< So am I. Scientology is one of the most successful con games ever
 perpetrated upon the unsuspecting public. It's billed as a form of
 therapy, and is very successful in lightening one's wallet. What
 they don't want the public to know is what they reveal to long-term
 members in good standing, a "truth" about our planet and species that
 sounds like a bad science-fiction novel. (Then again, when you consider
 who invented Scientology, this should not come as a surprise.)

***
Hmm, I use RPGs and Wargames for that (lightening my wallet, that is)
***
 
 Take a look on out there on the 'Net for more information. :) >>

Thanks, if I think that I need more, which I'm not shure that I do.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 22:20:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: hair spray

> From: SRKOALA@aol.com

> We are not nice people, are we?  What about spiders (black widows), ect?

>>After he raped me, I put a spider into his bed one night.  It took him nearly a week to die.<<

That's not an accurate quotation, and I have neither the book nor the
movie available at the moment, but it's from Dr. No.  Ursula Andress, as
young, blonde, and innocent as the character in the book (whose name
I've forgotten, too -- must be early onset Alzheimer's; I once knew the
Bond canon rather well), delivers the line with no hint of evil or
enjoyment or satisfaction about the revenge.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:33:27 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

In a message dated 99-05-05 20:57:53 EDT, you write:

<< Well, no I do play it for fun.  However, settings that I can't
 believe in are, to me, not any more fun than a book that if
 find implausible.  Since not having them seems a smaller
 change than keeping them and fixing them (and doesn't introduce
 handwaves that you just have to stretch you suspension of
 disbelief to accept), that is where I come down. >>

I know someone you might like: cralis@goldcom.com (Cralis)
He also likes the idea of shreading a game and puting it back to geather.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:40:15 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray...

In a message dated 99-05-05 19:18:18 EDT, you write:

<< >>What about puting Poison Oak in a salad?
 >
 >It's usually hard to get intruders to eat your salad.
 >
 >Frankie
 >
 >
 >
 
 Unless they are famished from a long night of home intrusion duties... >>

Or when they come to take over the town you say: Oh you want our food? Well 
here it is, all mixed up in nice salad bags, do you want some? [holds up 
salad dressing and fork]
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:42:08 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Core Career Skills

In a message dated 99-05-05 19:00:36 EDT, you write:

<< With the exception of Steward (which isn't in T4), and Liason,
 which reappears in T4 Pocket Empires, all of those skills are there.
 What may be confusing you is Business, which is a Cluster made up
 of Trader and Broker. >>

What does Steward do and does it have an equiv in T4?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:44:39 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Scientology (was: Re: Invasion Earth)

In a message dated 99-05-05 18:08:58 EDT, you write:

<< ... and lost the bet.  The way I'd heard the story, Heinlein
 proposed a bet that nobody could come up with a religion so
 screwy that nobody would believe it.  Hubbard took the short end
 of that bet, and created Dianetics and then Scientology.  Both
 "succeeded", and Hubbard was later taken in by his own
 Frankenstein's Monster (Scientology).

xxxx
You're kiding? right?
xxxx
 
 >: (If you're wondering I'm an athiest [how ever it may be spelled])
 
 Atheist.  You were close. >>

Ah, well thats one nice thing about the human brain (and spell checkers) is 
that they can aproximate things like that.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:44:42 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

Dear Folks -

Stephen "the Koala" asked:
>>>  What are the three differing combat scales? [snip]

>> At least, in MT, you could use the same rules. [snip]

>Can it be intergrated?

Um, that's what I was saying. A gauss rifle (Pen 7) can be fired against
battledress (AF 18) but will do virtually no damage (none at all against a
AF 40 starship) .

Pen 7 vs AF 18 gives 10% * 4 = 0.4 = 0 damage. A *very* highly skilled
character could push this at most to 0.4 * 8 = 3.2 = 3 dice of damage. (A
pinpoint shot would halve the armour (AF 9) but this still wouldn't help!)

An FGMP-15 (Pen 34) against battledress is much more effective, but also
will do virtually no damage to a starship.

A ship's fusion gun (Pen 103) against a Trepida's frontal armour (AF 40)
will do full damage, and even with the house mod I use (divide the listed
MT damage by 10, so a PA beam does 200 dice instead of 2000!) hits the tank
with something like 40 dice of damage, IIRC.

Someone one the list even has changed the MT (ie. HG) ship combat rules to
use the MT damage dice instead of the MT damage tables. (I'd like a copy,
BTW!)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:47:47 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

In a message dated 99-05-05 17:15:53 EDT, you write:

<< SOM is the Starship Operator's Manual, Vol 1 which details the Beowulf
 class in depth, and describes the technology as related to starships. >>

Hmm, I might have to check it out.

<<I prefer T4.1 (slightly higher tasks above difficult) as proposed by Marc
Miller. MT is a fine (if errata loaded) example of a well written RPG.>>

Were might I find it?
I have found Snapshot something or other for TNE and I think it might work 
with some tweaking for T4, what do you [the entire list] think about it.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:51:48 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> >Are/were you seriously proposing jump stations as the way Things Should Be?
> >I didn't get that you were, but were presenting a hypothetical.  Not quite 
a
> >strawman, if you didn't expect it to get trashed, I concede, khihe.  :-)
> 
>   "Should" be in the sense of being desirable? Gods*, no. If drop tanks can

Should in the sense of being the logical outcome of drop tanks.  In no way, 
do I agree.  :-)  In fact, the "flexible piping thread" firmly entrenched me 
there (and note I didn't participate).

> be used as written in HG2/TCS - let alone the horrible thought of external
< drive support from tanker/stations - then the economic system very likely
> _would_ end up looking something like that, allowing for regional 
variations;
> that's why I've been against drop tanks for a long time as a Bad Idea.

I don't think so.  Even if the tech could be worked out (and that will face a 
fierce debate, don't doubt), the volume of trade going through these stations 
would require them to be simply massive and even more vulnerable than they 
would be if they were small.

> >fraction of the trade that goes through big WTNs ala Far Trader?
> 
>   Don't get FT `til Sunday. However, the issue is scalability - this is a
> ridiculously cheap station design (so cheap that some people didn't 
recognize
> the design as a valid HG2 product) that can be physically enlarged or can be
> augmented by increasing the orbiting herd size. And where people were 
arguing
> whether a station that cost MCr 100 per 1000 Dt _for the hull alone_ was an
> economically viable project this thing comes in at MCr 56 per 1000 DT 
fitted!

Can you make them big enough to take hundreds of thousands, if not millions, 
of dtons of shipping each *week*, as Far Trade has worlds on the "Main 
Routes" doing?  That has got to be a GIGANTIC station.  100 diamters from 
that?  ;-)

> >I think they'd be pretty vulnerable anywhere, really.  A Pirate (gasp!) or
> >corsair (along the entire Vargr borders) would probably find it pretty
> >desirable to toast the station, leaving him with a bunch of nice and ripe
> >prey that are probably pretty low on gas.  This is especially a big problem
> >w/ reaction drives (as I'm want to assume).  :-)
> >By the time help from the mainworld can arrive, the raiders are gone.
> 
>   First, I'd like to thank you for reviving the Pirate thread.  :-)

heh.  I just never pay attn when it rolls around.  ;-)  It's certainly viable 
in the New Era.  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:51:45 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

>   First, I've been a Virus fan. Yes - I was Goodlife*...

I've read some Saberhagen.  Good ideas for Virus and AI all around, really.
 
>   I liked Virus. It wasn't serious at first - I just thought it was cool.
> I'd really liked CT A:13 - Signal GK. I guess I should've been concerned
> when I found myself listening to techno music.

LOL.
I started w/ TNE, though after the fall of GDW.  I compared against MT and 
T4.  Hands down and I can't see how anyone would choose another way w/o 
preconceptions built in, though I can understand them.  

>   Anyway, I filtered into the camp of people who kinda thought Virus was
> neat - heck, so they killed untold billions of Imperial citizens - so had
> the Imperials! And Virus had some unresolved resentment issues of its own...

I just never had a problem w/ it.  Course, i had no attachments to the 
Imperium, the massive amount of canon taht would be required (which i've 
since mostly acquired anyways), etc.  In fact, i'm struck by the tragedy 
that's in Survival Margin.  One of the best supplements for any rpg IMO.  It 
just smacks of real history.  Not like when I read an Emperor's list or the 
Imperial Encyclopedia/GT, though.  Those just make me snicker (no offense to 
anyone).

>   So, sure, I was unimpressed by the post-Virus release timeline, but what
> about Virus itself? OK, so I accept that the initial triggering of late
> model Imperial transponders was only possible due to the 3I's Big Oops;
> they're all latent Virus boxes and the activation element was a backwards
> compatible** update of the latest nifty ideas for destroying the nervous
> system of a civilization - optimized for the developers own empire,
> strangely enough, but this _was_ The Big Oops.

I know I defended that pretty vehemently before, but I was going kinda 
"Devil's Advocate."  I dont' really think it's a big deal.  It doesn't really 
matter if the SDB boxes were any more "tamper proof" than the ones *claimed* 
in CT.  I definately have no problem w/ allowing the IN's "mute" (in Survival 
Margin) to likewise be flexed to everyone.  It just makes sense to be allowed 
a mute, though I could see Core sector, for example, not allowing it.  But 
the Spinward Marches?  Definately.

>   And if we accept something like modern computers (?) then physical contact
> is acceptable within the context of the chips abilities described in A:13
> (which is CT, and thus superior, if imperfect :> ). But, physical contact
> in that description seems to be limited to contact of material/media which

Yeah.  That would be in the manner of the original Cymbeline predator, though 
the details vary, of course.  :-) 

> can serve as a chip if reconfigured - a power cable wouldn't count. Nor
> should a radio broadcast (ForEx) unless the receiving unit was an SDG box.
> But normal commo or power hook-ups - including optical data lines, etc.,
> shouldn't be able to do it; the Cymbeline parasites rebuild their victims
> a molecule at a time from a few centimeters away at best.

What bout tight beam commo?  Anything that requires an enormous amount of 
computing ability worked in real tight.  The exact tech of the computers is 
certainly vague, though look at their general capabilities.  If you buy the 
SoM, Virus should be more than believable.  I don't think anyone proposes an 
"ordinary" power cable, though.  

>  FWIW, I don't believe I've seen a proper TML Virus war. Yet?

heh.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:51:50 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two) 

> > What bout tight beam computer controlled commo?  A "data" link? Etc?
> 
> That'll only work if there's a "compatible" system on the other end. In
> this case, that means one of those transpoders based on the silicon
> lifeform. Otherwise, it just ain't gonna work. 
> 
> It's like email. The *only* reason an email message can infect your
> computer is because it has both compatible hardware and software *and*
> because the software has some truly *stupid* defaults. 3000 years in
> the future they'll know better than to write software that's *that*
> stupid. 

Yeah, but that depends on the hardware and just *how* it works.  And of that, 
we have no clue.  We just have ideas of very general capabilities.  (If they 
had gotten too specific, especially in '77, it'd be laughed off teh shelves). 
 The same thing applies today IMO.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:57:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-05 13:26:31 EDT, you write:

<< That yahoo deserved to be caught.  He ran the chipper on
 a bridge, while it was raining, at night.  Some passerby
 was bound to get curious.  The killer's fatal mistake was
 that he rented the chipper using his own credit card.
 Bad move. >>

Dumb, bumb, very dumb.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 01:58:44 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipboard recreation facilities...

In a message dated 99-05-05 13:20:37 EDT, you write:

<< No. This is the crucial (IMHO) underpinning of the entire OTU...with no
 FTL commo, you're flung back into social and governmental structures of
 the Age of Sail, 18th century Terra.
 
 When information only travels at the speed of transportation, tightly
 controlled centralized government is impossible. Every aspect of the
 political structure of the Imperium flows from this point. This is why
 you have Knights, Barons, Marquesses and Archdukes. This is why you have
 pirates, this is why a LOT in the TU happens as it does. >>

Ah, well, I guess that changes the way familes comunicate.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:02:17 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Invasion Earth (Was: A-10 versus MBT? )
...
>> a limited war on the surface (BTW, what do we assume happened to Terras deep
>> meson sites in I:E?).
>
>Were they "invented" (in Real Life) before I:E?  If *I* was the Solomani 
>chief, i'd have had a dozen on Terra and a few more on the moon.  Probably at 
>least one on Mars, too.

  Good question; I'm tolerably sure that HG was already out, but I'll try
and check our clubs copy tomorrow. I wonder if the moon wouldn't be the 
better choice for a lot of the sites; no atmo to screw up the secondary
laser, much fewer subjects for collateral damage to the slagging of the
surface, and no tectonic activity to make things easier for enemy spies
doing long-range (i.e., 20 years ahead of time) strategic recon.

>>   A good chunk of that issue wrt orbital gunships might be attributed to
>> the sorts of beam weapons that work best in various conditions. IIRC, a
>> meter wide X-ray laser is going to suck if shot into most atmospheres, and
>> high energy weapon bolts are going to be ineffective in both directions.
>
>What about interface?  Firing from orbit, etc? 

  FF&S(1) says that X-ray lasers suck in atmo, but the text and the table seem
to differ in extent; IIRC stuff about nukes correctly then the worse case is
correct and they'd be really bad, but Striker has X-ray lasers being the TL D
breakthrough (?).

  Barring a definitive answer a CT fan could always decide that the gunship role
from CT is filled by the smallest SDB types optimized for close-in planetary
defense/attack; thus, it would have armament optimized for function through an
atmosphere, designed using the Striker rules. Really, it becomes a _very_ big
and capable grav-tank - but does it want to ride a shockwave of ionized air
across the skies looking for enemy grav tanks waiting in low emissions mode?

>> The other question is how far can a non-TNE "spotlight shaped" laser (i.e.,
>> the stubby-barrelled sort in Striker) reach effectively without either grav
>> focussing or a much wider aperture?
>
>Using what rules?  IIRC, 3G3 uses "tubes" though i don't remember the 
>technobabble is attributed to it.  Not very effective at all w/ FF&S.  How 
>does G:V treat lasers?  

  Dunno - I've only skimmed GV2 so far.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 02:02:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus (Was: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two) 

In a message dated 99-05-06 01:57:46 EDT, you write:

<< > That'll only work if there's a "compatible" system on the other end. In
 > this case, that means one of those transpoders based on the silicon
 > lifeform. Otherwise, it just ain't gonna work. 
 > 
 > It's like email. The *only* reason an email message can infect your
 > computer is because it has both compatible hardware and software *and*
 > because the software has some truly *stupid* defaults. 3000 years in
 > the future they'll know better than to write software that's *that*
 > stupid. 
 
 Yeah, but that depends on the hardware and just *how* it works.  And of 
that, 
 we have no clue.  We just have ideas of very general capabilities.  (If they 
 had gotten too specific, especially in '77, it'd be laughed off teh 
shelves). 
  The same thing applies today IMO.   >>

The post about how The Virus works would make it so that it would take over 
every thing, my TI-35X to a TL-200^20 Bio-Optic (which from what I have heard 
is just around the corner TL-8.5 or TL-9) super computer (the optic 
componates at least).
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 02:04:08 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

In a message dated 99-05-06 01:56:47 EDT, you write:

<< I just never had a problem w/ it.  Course, i had no attachments to the 
 Imperium, the massive amount of canon taht would be required (which i've 
 since mostly acquired anyways), etc.  In fact, i'm struck by the tragedy 
 that's in Survival Margin.  One of the best supplements for any rpg IMO.  It 
 just smacks of real history.  Not like when I read an Emperor's list or the 
 Imperial Encyclopedia/GT, though.  Those just make me snicker (no offense to 
 anyone). >>

What was in Survival Margin?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 02:06:04 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

In a message dated 99-05-06 01:50:32 EDT, you write:

<< >> At least, in MT, you could use the same rules. [snip]
 
 >Can it be intergrated?
 
 Um, that's what I was saying. A gauss rifle (Pen 7) can be fired against
 battledress (AF 18) but will do virtually no damage (none at all against a
 AF 40 starship) .
 
 Pen 7 vs AF 18 gives 10% * 4 = 0.4 = 0 damage. A *very* highly skilled
 character could push this at most to 0.4 * 8 = 3.2 = 3 dice of damage. (A
 pinpoint shot would halve the armour (AF 9) but this still wouldn't help!)
 
 An FGMP-15 (Pen 34) against battledress is much more effective, but also
 will do virtually no damage to a starship.
 
 A ship's fusion gun (Pen 103) against a Trepida's frontal armour (AF 40)
 will do full damage, and even with the house mod I use (divide the listed
 MT damage by 10, so a PA beam does 200 dice instead of 2000!) hits the tank
 with something like 40 dice of damage, IIRC.
 
 Someone one the list even has changed the MT (ie. HG) ship combat rules to
 use the MT damage dice instead of the MT damage tables. (I'd like a copy,
 BTW!) >>

T4 set up, not the MT set up, or am I missing something major?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #571
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Thursday, May 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 572



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions
Re: [Off-Topic] Found Star Wars figures for sale.
Re: Copyright
Re: MT vs T4 CharGen
Re: Core Career Skills
Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED MT Task Resolution, rah rah rah
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: hair spray
Re: MT vs T4 CharGen
Re: Biotech
Re: Four Day Planet thought
Re: BITS Website Update 5 May 1999
Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Four Day Planet thought
CT Deneb Sector Data
Re: hair spray
Modified Psionics for TNE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 02:08:35 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

> TNE also scales up, but uses linear armour, so tanks have AV 200 or more
> (someone mentioned making destroyers AV 2000+!). For my liking, a little
> too much like the "mega-damage" rules from Rifts. YMMV.

Hardly.  The Midu Agashaam in BL has an AV of 62 (though is hardly the best 
FF&S or even BL design).  My TL-14 Hiver DD-IVb 
(http://members.aol.com/travelrtne/main.htm), has an AV of 84 and is fairly 
well designed (if I say so myself).  Even Cruisers are usually under a 
thousand.  I seem to recall a design of the Tigress that was AV 2000.  Even 
that goes to a 16 on BR's scale... 


Gary  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 02:14:48 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In a message dated 99-05-05 12:24:42 EDT, you write:

<< If you ever get Larry Niven in a good mood at a Con, ask him about
 Pournelle and the German Translator.  Great story. >>

Can you tell us here?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:48:38 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

Dear Folks -

Stephen asked:
>T4 set up, not the MT set up, or am I missing something major?

My (lengthy!) example was for MT (gauss rifle Pen 7, battledress AF 18, etc
etc).

In T4, I have *no* idea about what happens if you shoot a starship with an
FGMP-15 (not that the weapon even seems to exist in T4, unless you count
the over-the-shoulder monstrosity in Emperor's Arsenal!!)

Any clue from the T4 players?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 02:18:46 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Found Star Wars figures for sale.

dh wrote:

>  If anyone would like some info, please email me off list. :)

I would stress the last to words of that line.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 02:24:07 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright

"David J. Golden" wrote:

> At 10:32 PM 5/3/99 +0100, you wrote:
> >Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
> >>Haven't yet got the former, and the latter is in my hardcover
> compilation
> >>of all the AMs, behind a glass case, under guard, surrounded by a
> moat.
> >
> >Ditto mine, except for the moat and the guard ;-)
>
>         Good. Where do you live?
> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --

Try emailing Mr. Miller at FarFutures@aol.com, IIRC.
He was the source of mine and even autographed the
book.  I love it.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 02:25:27 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 CharGen

trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> On 05/05/99 15:42:19 Jason Kemp wrote:
> >
> >I have not seen the T5 beta materials, except for the skill lists
> >and task system, I believe.  I assume that access to these is only
> >granted to playtesters selected by Mark Miller.  Otherwise, I'd love
> >to see them.

[snip]

>   I was never fond of the T4/4.1 task
> system, eventually dropping it in favor of my own somewhat-simplified-and-
> tweaked version of MT, and would be heartened to find out it's not being
> carried over into the new edition.

T5beta is the same as T4.1.  At least as far as I know.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 02:27:48 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Core Career Skills

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> What does Steward do and does it have an equiv in T4?

In the strictest sense, its the care and feeding of passengers.
Think Julie, Isaac and Gopher.

IIRC, some versions have it include freight-handling.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 02:56:15 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-05-05 18:08:58 EDT, you write:
>
> << ... and lost the bet.  The way I'd heard the story, Heinlein
>  proposed a bet that nobody could come up with a religion so
>  screwy that nobody would believe it.  Hubbard took the short end
>  of that bet, and created Dianetics and then Scientology.  Both
>  "succeeded", and Hubbard was later taken in by his own
>  Frankenstein's Monster (Scientology).
>
> xxxx
> You're kiding? right?
> xxxx

I hadn't heard that particular spin on Scientology, but
I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.  The occassional
lurking on alt.something.scientology reveals some
freaked out ideas.  And I don't use the term lightly.
I recall something about a giant clam from outer
space that is the primary source of our human
genetic pain.  And scientology is an attempt to free
your brain from the impulses and instinctive reactions
to that pain; the idea being that unless you free yourself
from this genetic-memory pain, that you're not really
'thinking', but 'reacting' as an animal would.

(I'm not making the clam thing up).

My personal feeling about Scientology is that it is
a thinly-veiled ripoff of the science-fiction works
of A.E.Van Vogt's Null-A series (the Null-A is for
"Non-Aristotelian") and the works upon which these
are based.  Those works are the creation of
Alfred Korzybski, who created the Theory of General
Semantics. His most prominent book is "Science and
Sanity."  Written in the 1930s.  Today, the book isn't
that revolutionary.  But I think its easier to understand
today than it was when written.

IMO, fundamentally, Korzybski's work is about bringing
a quantum mechanics model to the human mind and
especially language.  You can see that approach, if you
look for it, in virtually all social science study today.
But Korzybski's work was 'ahead of its time', very difficult
to understand for someone without an understanding of
quantum mechanics.

Its too complicated to go into here, but in all the things I've
ever read about scientology, I can clearly detect the ideas
presented by Korzybski, if distorted.  That Korzybski's
works were excerpted in A.E.Van Vogt's most famous
book ("The Players of Null-A"), which was published in
the 1940s, and that even if little known to today's average
Sci-Fi reader, Van Vogt has been often sited by more
prominent Sci-Fi authors as a very important author
(Philip K. Dick in particular), all support my personal
conclusion that Hubbard was very familiar with
Van Vogt and probably also very familiar with Korzybki.
The "cortical-thalamic pause" in Van Vogt's works is
similar to my understanding of what Scientology
attempts to do.

Sorry to go off on a rant, but "The Players of Null-A",
read at the age of 9, fundamentally changed the way
my brain works.  I pursued the interest in that book
to the source, Korzybski, and its still potent thinking,
more than 20 years later.  I don't buy everything that
comes along with this stuff, nor agree with all of it,
but the value of the change in perspective that it
encourages is so great, that I can but recommend
The Players of Null-A by Van Vogt as an introduction.
Its a good pulp-sci-fi read, as well as a smooth introduction
to the concepts of General Semantics.

Theres also a good explanation at:
http://www.general-semantics.org/gs/brochure.shtml

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:04:57 +1000 
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED MT Task Resolution, rah rah rah

	On 05/05/99 15:42:19 Jason Kemp wrote:
	>
	>I have not seen the T5 beta materials, except for the skill lists 
	>and task system, I believe.  I assume that access to these is only 
	>granted to playtesters selected by Mark Miller.  Otherwise, I'd
love 
	>to see them.
	>
	Are the T5-Beta skill lists and task system available for
dissemination, 
	'cause I'd love to see them if they are.  However, even if they are
not, I 
	still have a question: is the T5-Beta task system similar to the
T4.1 
	system (including half-dice, skill+stat, etc.) or is it something
new (or 
	perhaps something old- i.e. MT)?  I was never fond of the T4/4.1
task 
	system, eventually dropping it in favor of my own
somewhat-simplified-and-
	tweaked version of MT, and would be heartened to find out it's not
being 
	carried over into the new edition.

	Thanks,

Trent


I really liked the MT Task Resolution and, for its time, thought it one of
the better (if not the best) of all skill resolution mechanics in the RPG
world. I too tweaked it (mainly by boosting the effect of stats) and IMHO
worked great. 

I hated TNE's system (no flames please, personal taste) and I think that T4
has swung the pendulum too far in the favour of characteristic rather than
actual skill level (well to me at any rate). 

A nice, slightly re-jigged MT for T5 (IMO) would be ideal. 
 
Michael Hughes

	

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 00:34:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
>
>> >Are/were you seriously proposing jump stations as the way Things Should Be?
...
>Should in the sense of being the logical outcome of drop tanks.  In no way, 
>do I agree.  :-)  In fact, the "flexible piping thread" firmly entrenched me 
>there (and note I didn't participate).

  Please keep in mind that AFAIK this thread is about Service Stations as
drop tank support centers, not B:5-ish abominations that propel their victims
into the icy deeps of hyperspace <yawn>... ; that is, the "flexible piping
thread" isn't directly relevant - only the rules on drop tanks and resultant
economic follow-ons matter. And that's CT rules. Yes, CT Rules! <ahem> :)

>> be used as written in HG2/TCS - let alone the horrible thought of external
>< drive support from tanker/stations - then the economic system very likely
>> _would_ end up looking something like that, allowing for regional 
>variations;
>> that's why I've been against drop tanks for a long time as a Bad Idea.
>
>I don't think so.  Even if the tech could be worked out (and that will face a 
>fierce debate, don't doubt), the volume of trade going through these stations 
>would require them to be simply massive and even more vulnerable than they 
>would be if they were small.

 a) the rules are laid out in HG2/TCS. I don't like them either. The rules
_"work out" the tech in the game_.
 b) Umm, multiple stations? Different companies competing for market share?
Nah, never happen...
 c) as for "you don't think so", is that an statement based on an economic
analysis, a military analysis, or some other sort of opinion?

...
>Can you make them big enough to take hundreds of thousands, if not millions, 
>of dtons of shipping each *week*, as Far Trade has worlds on the "Main 
>Routes" doing?  That has got to be a GIGANTIC station.  100 diamters from 
>that?  ;-)

  s'OK, we'll make it a disc :)  Ornamental elephants optional...
But extra tankage (not shuttles, skimmers, etc., though) costs only MCr 0.72
per 800 D-tons of L-Hyd! And I suspect that cheaper methods (also of dubious
ethicality, perhaps) may be found. And needless to say, multiple stations
(which are after all strictly needed only as maintenance/admin platforms for
the drop tank delivery/handling/refilling industry) are possible too.

...
>heh.  I just never pay attn when it rolls around.  ;-)  It's certainly viable 
>in the New Era.  :-)

  No argument there. I suppose if I wanted to run that sort of game (I don't,
AFAIK) I'd have to use the TNE/RCES setting as the best choice.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 01:49:26 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
...
>> can serve as a chip if reconfigured - a power cable wouldn't count. Nor
>> should a radio broadcast (ForEx) unless the receiving unit was an SDG box.
>> But normal commo or power hook-ups - including optical data lines, etc.,
>> shouldn't be able to do it; the Cymbeline parasites rebuild their victims
>> a molecule at a time from a few centimeters away at best.
>
>What bout tight beam commo?  Anything that requires an enormous amount of 
>computing ability worked in real tight.  The exact tech of the computers is 
>certainly vague, though look at their general capabilities.  If you buy the 
>SoM, Virus should be more than believable.  I don't think anyone proposes an 
>"ordinary" power cable, though.  

  How does "tight beam commo" differ from a radio broadcast or a CD-ROM dl
of equal bandwidth? The issue isn't the computers - although a physical
composition that wasn't vulnerable to a Cymbeline parasite restructuring
it a molecule at a time might be safe or highly resistant (a strictly 
fibre-optic system?? - or vacuum tubes? :> )

  And frankly, I find the SOM more than a little embarassing; if I ran a
game full of science students I wouldn't admit to owning it.

  Activating an SDG (and giving it instructions at the same time) via
commo, sure. Parasatizing a system in physical proximity, sure (and a
sign of infection would be little worm-trails of semi-conductor tracing
a path along your wiring, with a Cymbeline manipulator node worming its
way forward at the "working face"). A signal designed to tell an SDG
to become a DoomSlayer hitting your Model/2-equivalent college library
system and turning into an SDG-type Vampire? Nope. Not even close.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 22:06:26 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: hair spray

>In a message dated 99-05-05 17:14:48 EDT, you write:
>
><< > All I can say is ....  Dorsai !
>
> Yeah. "Scrap" nickel turnings, plus an old internal combustion
> generator equals a nasty way to die.  >>
>
>shocking.  Dorsai, I have heard that some place befor, its a set of novels,
>right?

Long series of novels, sometimes referred to as the Childe cycle,  by Gordon
Dickinson based around a world whose only income was it's mercenaries, and
the Graeme family, who were military geniuses. Some of the best military SF
out there, though it got a bit silly near the "end" of the cycle.

Great resource for Traveller mercenary campaigns, one of the longest
Traveller games I ever played in was based on the Dorsai concept.

One of my favourite characters was Waverly Ambrose Xenophon  (W.A.X.)
Johnson, O.C Supply.

Compared to most of the characters in our equivalent of the Dorsai, the
Lustre Family, he was not at all combat-oriented, but he kept gettting into
places where he had to pretend to be a "real" soldier, because, well he was
one of the Lustre mercenaries, wasn't he ?

But, it's amazing what one can do with a high Admin skill...

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 06:19:43 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 CharGen

Is what I am hearing is that people are generally thinking that MT is 
superior to T4 in the character generation and combat areas? If I remember 
correctly wasn't GDW's decision to can the MT rules for a set of GURPS-like 
house rules a point of disagreement between GDW and Miller? I've played both, 
(actually own both which are both collecting dust on my shelves) and am 
fascinated by this discussion. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 05:10:30 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Biotech

At 02:45 AM 4/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Has anyone done anything in Tx with biotech like that in EFC (Skrill, CVIs, 
>ect)?
>-Stephen
>


   I have been toying with the idea myself. I read an article in one of my
Traveller mags (forgot which one) that discusses the TL for certain types
of Bio/Cyber wear. I'll see if I can't find the article again and tell you
where it is.

  P.S.
  I just started a CT campain with new players who have never played
Traveller and they wanted to know what Jump space looked like. I just told
them it looked alot like ID space.
 \        /  /\   |'''\  |     /'''\  |'''\  |''\ 
  \  /\  /  /__\  |___|  |    (     ) |___|  |   )
   \/  \/  /    \ |   \  |___  \___/  |   \  |__/ 
      When you can't Conquer them DESTROY them.
           warlord@emerado.polaristel.net
                warlord@means.net             

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:47:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet thought

In mail you write:

> A random thought about the "Four Day Planet" world that has been
> proposed.  There are two habitable zones on the planet: the dawn and
> dusk zones.  Both could be home to migrating species/cultures.  They
> would be completely isolated from each other, communicating only by
> dropped messages that can take extreme heat/cold.  I'm imagining herds
> of K'kree and G'nak chasing each other in eternal circles...

Just keep in mind that the closer you get to the poles, the closer
those zones are. 

BTW, assuming the days are 90 earth days long, the terminator moves a
bit more than 11 miles an hour at the equator. Compare this to around a
thousand miles an hour on Earth.

To get the speed at other latitudes, multiply by the cosine of the
latitude. So at 60 degrees N or S, it'll be half as fast.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 04:26:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: BITS Website Update 5 May 1999

- --- SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:

> *101 Starships for GURPS Traveller Release 3
> Rob Prior has been beavering away, adding yet more ships to the file,
> which
> now exceeds 167 pages. You'll need the freeware Acrobat Reader 3 to
> view
> the document, but it's still free to download from the archive page
> (886
> kb).

The archive button only brings up a blank page.

Terry

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 12:25:13 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

At 12:24 05/05/1999 -0600, "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:
<snip>

>Oh, and does anyone know if T5 will correct the skill tables so that 
>characters are created with skills appropriate and necessary for 
>their careers?  Mark, I'd like to make that one of my requests for 
>the new system

The last beta that I saw (some time ago now) was better than T4 but not
(IMO) focussed enough.

My solution was to take all the skills and regroup them into 6 tables
along the lines of:

	Physical
	Mental
	Social
	Enlisted
	Command
	Support

For each skill, I let my players choose the table to roll on.

The result is that, whilst there are no skill restrictions, it became
easier to get a focused character (ie your support types don't
get fleet tactics unless they roll on the command table, in which
case you could assume attendance at command school or some other
bit of career history.)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 07:46:43 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 1:22 AM
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans


>Signal GK is CT Adventure 13, the last of the LBB adventures.


I was sort of being sarcastic in relation to the message I was responding
to. I knew that Signal GK was a CT adventure.

>I believe that Survival Margin said that either Lucan's or Dulinor's fleet
>bombarded and completely destroyed the surface of Cymbeline late in the
war.


My original point was that while running a TNE campaign a few years back, I
never came across the concept of the Cymbeline chips as an integral part of
Virus. To the best of my knowledge, that idea was dropped after Survival
Margin, as it's not in any of the TNE books I own, and I have almost all of
them.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 07:46:25 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Four Day Planet thought

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > A random thought about the "Four Day Planet" world that has been
> > proposed.  There are two habitable zones on the planet: the dawn and
> > dusk zones.  Both could be home to migrating species/cultures.  They
> > would be completely isolated from each other, communicating only by
> > dropped messages that can take extreme heat/cold.  I'm imagining herds
> > of K'kree and G'nak chasing each other in eternal circles...
>
> Just keep in mind that the closer you get to the poles, the closer
> those zones are.
>
> BTW, assuming the days are 90 earth days long, the terminator moves a
> bit more than 11 miles an hour at the equator. Compare this to around a
> thousand miles an hour on Earth.

Hmm... 11 miles an hour... I don't think caravans can move fast  enough to
outrun the sun.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 04:51:25 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: CT Deneb Sector Data

does anyone know where on the web I can find CT sector data for Deneb...Alls 
I've found is TNE data...I don't have Atlas of the Imperium either...seems 
that item is hard to come by..
TIA
Mike


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 08:58:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: hair spray

Howdy!

> 
> We are not nice people, are we?  What about spiders (black widows), ect?
> -Stephen
> 
Reminds me of a song by Heather Rose Jones titled (more or less) "Black
Widows in the Privy". Why bother with poison in the food when black widows
in the privy do as well...

yours,
Michael

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 07:02:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Modified Psionics for TNE

Here's a variant of mine on the "cost" of using psion-
ics for TNE. The psion will spend psi-points to use a
power. Psi-points are calculated in the following man-
ner: (PSI*INT)+(Willpower Asset). Each power has a min-
imum amount to be spent to use it, which is listed be-
low. Any additional psi-points spent will be a DM added
to the 1d10 roll. Here are the minimum costs:

Telepathy
   Telempathy 2
   Project Emotion 2
   Project Thought 2
   Willpower Drain 3
   Life Detection 1
   Shield 1
   Probe 7
   Assault 9

Teleperception
   Sense 1
   Clairvoyance 3
   Clairaudience 3

Telephysics
   Cryokinesis 4
   Pyrokinesis 4
   Telekinesis 4

Teleportation 7

Self
   Suspended Animation 3
   Orientation 2
   Enhanced Strength 4
   Enhanced Constitution 4
   Regeneration 6

Computer Empathy 5
Psionic Healing 8
Prescience 9

Any constructive criticism is welcome.
 

===

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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #572
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, May 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 573



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Scanned MT rules?
Re: Warlord
Re: Design Limitations (was Re: solid hydrogen fuel)
Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation
Re: Invasion Earth
life support (was Re: Core Career Skills)
Artificial Intelligence
Re: Telepresence
Re: life support (was Re: Core Career Skills)
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: Plastic Rifle...
Re: Telepresence
Re: hair spray
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
Re: Telepresence
Re: Shipboard Recreation
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Plastic Rifle
Re: Bloo's T4/5 Adv CharGen (was Re: MT vs T4 CharGen)
Re: Shipboard Recreation
Re: Copyright
BITS Website - 6/5/99
Re: BITS Website Update 5 May 1999

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:12:02 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Scanned MT rules?

William Barnett-Lewis
>
>Hello, 
>Before I set done to do all this myself, has anyone else scanned in the
MT
>rules and applied the errata? I have the full set and this would be for
my
>use only. It would be nice if I could keep a copy of the rules on my
Power
>Book for example...

I also would love a copy. I've been collecting Traveller since 1980 and
MT was my favorite of all the versions. Unfortunately my scanner
(or at least my skill with it) does a poor job of scanning the MT
material in a modifiable format. Proving I already have copies
of the books to satisfy copyrights would be easy.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:16:35 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Warlord

This is totally off-topic, but I could not resist... for
all you USENET readers, the irony of this is too much to
pass up...

>  \        /  /\   |'''\  |     /'''\  |'''\  |''\
>   \  /\  /  /__\  |___|  |    (     ) |___|  |   )
>    \/  \/  /    \ |   \  |___  \___/  |   \  |__/
>       When you can't Conquer them DESTROY them.
>            warlord@emerado.polaristel.net
>                 warlord@means.net

For those who don't get it, http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/afw/

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 15:22:56 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Design Limitations (was Re: solid hydrogen fuel)

At 11:14 04/05/1999 -0700, shudson@mail.lightspeed.bc.ca wrote:
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: solid hydrogen fuel
>...
>>The secondary (and minor) usage where you take the tanks *through* a
>>jump to refuel afterwards, depend on your ship being able to haul them
>>along anyway. So while the cutoff point for practicality will be
>>different, there will still be designs that can do it. 
>
>  This brings up a point - a lot of CT ships _can't_ haul drop tanks, or
>are in a very dubious rules position with respect to doing so.
>
>  Firstly, a Jump-1 drive that wasn't over-built (i.e., a 300-Dt capacity
>drive installed in a 200-Dt hull) _can't_ do a jump with any additional
>tankage/stowage at all; this assumes that J#'s truncate after calculations,
>but if they don't then transporting small planetoids by tethering them to
>Seekers starts to look feasible. Per TCS larger drives may not be
retrofitted.
>
>  Secondly, combos over 1000-Dt won't have the minimum bridge requirement
>to operate (2% of Dt). If this doesn't apply then it's a further bonus for
>the "all tankage is welded drop-tanks" absurdity. FWIW, the Jump Ship in S:9
>does appear to have allocated bridge tonnage for its supposed 10kt full load.
>Per HG2 this restriction will rarely apply to sub-1000 Dt ships but some sort
>of solution needs to be considered. Some precedent allows this but a solution
>needs to be considered.

sub-1000 Dt the cost of the bridge depends on the ship's displacement,
so your bridge might be big enough but not contain the right sort of
equipment.

I'm sure that the rules do not require the drop tanks to be taken into
account when designing the ship, only when calculating the reduced
capabilities that it has.

Even if it did, there is still a munchkin option - a 200T ship with
200T tanks has a smaller factor 1 manoeuvre drive than a 400T ship.
True, you only get 0.5G but that might well be enough for a merchant
operating out of a high port. And it gives you the option to leave
the tanks in orbit whilst you land.

The more things there are to like about drop tank ships, the easier
I find it to recognise them for the foul stain upon the perfection
of Traveller that they are.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:37:56 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 Character Generation

At 01:33 PM 5/6/99 +1000, you wrote:
>If you like MT but want more choice, alter the skills tables by adding more
>Cascade skills. I created MT chargen systems for Planetary Police and the
>MoJ, and in both cases the 'branch-specific" tables ONLY contain Cascade
>skills. This allows both randomness as to the general direction of skill
>choice, combined with allowing the player's to choose their final skill.

Actually, what I really want is an MT(advanced)-style system, for all
careers, for GT.  There was an article in Pyramid fro making random
characters, but it was based only on CT (not Mercs, just the basic stuff).
Has anyone attempted a project like this?  I really enjoy the randomly
rolled characters, and the MT system looks wonderful, but I want to use
GT....  And converting doesn't work all that well...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:54:31 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

At 11:02 PM 5/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Using what rules?  IIRC, 3G3 uses "tubes" though i don't remember the 
>>technobabble is attributed to it.  Not very effective at all w/ FF&S.  How 
>>does G:V treat lasers?  
>
>  Dunno - I've only skimmed GV2 so far.

In G:V, an X-Ray Laser has 1/50th it's space range in an atmosphere.  That
means that both it's max range and the 1/2D range are reduced that much.
That still lets the standard GT laser have a 1/2D of over 450 miles (TL10).

I'm not sure, but I think that's gonna be enough to hit the horizon from
anything short of orbit.  (I may be wrong here.  hoe do you calculate
horizon distance as a function of altitude?)


          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:21:55 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: life support (was Re: Core Career Skills)

Stephen wrote:

>Makes sense, I checked out your FF&S LS rules, and I would like you to
>check
>out the fallowing page:
>http://science.nas.nasa.gov/Services/Education/SpaceSettlement/designer/regen

>.
>html
>
>I'm not saying that that you're wrong, but you might want to check it
out,
>there is alot of neat stuff on the web page.

actual scientific research data, I need to check my sources and compair
the results.  Then modify my rules additions accordingly.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 08:27:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Artificial Intelligence

Interesting article today at abcnews.com

Thinking Machines Emerging
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/emergent990505.html

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:48:22 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

Richard Hough write:
>
> The big problem with combat telepresence IMTU is the 
> probability of an enemy taking over control of your 
> weapons by remote control.

  Actually, that would be a trivial problem verging on
the impossible.  Not only does the enemy have to pinpoint
a moving meson communication rig without the benefit of
telemetry, they also have to crack the encryption rountines
that would be employed.  I'm very confident that Imperial
cyphers are really tough to crack, especially in real-time.

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 12:27:16 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: life support (was Re: Core Career Skills)

Where are these FFSL rules??

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Thu, 06 May 1999 10:21:55 -0500 Charles R Hensley
<hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Stephen wrote:
>
>>Makes sense, I checked out your FF&S LS rules, and I would like you 
>to
>>check
>>out the fallowing page:
>>http://science.nas.nasa.gov/Services/Education/SpaceSettlement/designer
/regen
>
>>.
>>html
>>
>>I'm not saying that that you're wrong, but you might want to check 
>it
>out,
>>there is alot of neat stuff on the web page.
>
>actual scientific research data, I need to check my sources and 
>compair
>the results.  Then modify my rules additions accordingly.
>
>Charles
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:23:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

At 02:14 AM 5/6/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-05 12:24:42 EDT, you write:
>
><< If you ever get Larry Niven in a good mood at a Con, ask him about
> Pournelle and the German Translator.  Great story. >>
>
>Can you tell us here?

The German Translator of _The Mercenary_ was a communist.  Really. A member
of West Germany's Communist party.  When asked to translate the book into
german, he re-wrote large portions of the book to better highlight the
"facist" nature of the story.

Jerry caught up with him at a WorldCon (Bristol, IIRC) and nearly killed
him.  Evidently, the screaming could be heard throughout the area.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:34:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle...

At 01:40 PM 5/6/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Thus spake Doug:
>>I fired a M-82 .50cal sniper rifle at two sheets of target paper, one at
>>50m, the other behind the first at 60m.  The second paper showed that the
>>round was tumbling when it passed through.
>
>So *you're* the reference Frank Chadwick used when he wrote that Challenge
>article?

That's a standard excercise in sniper training, to discourage us from
taking shots at 600m through light brush.  I did get a warm feeling in my
cold killer's heart when I read that article.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

On Thu, 6 May 1999, Todd A. Zircher wrote:

>   Actually, that would be a trivial problem verging on
> the impossible.  Not only does the enemy have to pinpoint
> a moving meson communication rig without the benefit of
> telemetry, they also have to crack the encryption rountines
> that would be employed.  I'm very confident that Imperial
> cyphers are really tough to crack, especially in real-time.

Yes, I must agree. Why, in order to have any chance of breaking a complex
cypher system, one would practically need to be able to read the mind of
the guy who designed it, or someone who knows the specs of the device, or
one of the guys who works on the code updates, or any one of a lot of
people who'd have a good working knowledge of it. And of course there are
no enemies of the Imperium with the capability to read minds, right?  ;)

"Thanks for your hard work, Dr. Kivarish, but in order to ensure the
security of this wonderful system, we have to complete just one more
procedure..." (ZAP!)

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:00:36 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: hair spray

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
>
> We are not nice people, are we?  What about spiders (black widows), ect?
> -Stephen

Despite their fearsome reputation, Black Widows aren't particularly
dangerous.

There are deadlier spiders though,

 <cue Steve Irwin impersonation> " 'Ere in Australia, we 'ave some
spiders that are the deadliest, most poisonous in the world...watch me
as I piss one off!"

A better solution is to serve everyone fugu, just make sure that the
master chef makes yours and the apprentice makes the bad guys...heh heh
heh.

Generally the rule is, though, never piss off the natives; a good rule
to follow no matter where you go.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:59:46 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

>>>> (begin quoted material)
To some extent, yes. On the other hand, a trade war can be fought
(quite
legally and acceptably in the 3I) using mercenaries in battle dress
armed
with heavy weapons.

Let's see rogue Amway operatives take on P&G with rumors in *that*
environment...


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
>>>> (end quoted material)
Well, if an Amway representative appeared at my door in TL15 Battle
Dress with an FGMP-15, I would certainly listen a bit more respectfully
to them.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:15:27 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

At 09:45 AM 5/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On Thu, 6 May 1999, Todd A. Zircher wrote:
>
>>   Actually, that would be a trivial problem verging on
>> the impossible.  Not only does the enemy have to pinpoint
>> a moving meson communication rig without the benefit of
>> telemetry, they also have to crack the encryption rountines
>> that would be employed.  I'm very confident that Imperial
>> cyphers are really tough to crack, especially in real-time.
>
>Yes, I must agree. Why, in order to have any chance of breaking a complex
>cypher system, one would practically need to be able to read the mind of
>the guy who designed it, or someone who knows the specs of the device, or
>one of the guys who works on the code updates, or any one of a lot of
>people who'd have a good working knowledge of it. And of course there are
>no enemies of the Imperium with the capability to read minds, right?  ;)
>
>"Thanks for your hard work, Dr. Kivarish, but in order to ensure the
>security of this wonderful system, we have to complete just one more
>procedure..." (ZAP!)
>
>Brannon
>

There should be other ways as well, like jamming.  Jam the control signals
and the robot just stand there.  Should be fairly easy.  Bombard the area
with meson noise or is a damper to decay the meson early or overload the
recievers front end with to much signal strength and burn out the reciever.
You don't need to know much about the robot do do these things.  EMP bomb them!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:16:26 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Recreation

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
 
> What is "Paranoia's R&D Devision?"

Paranoia is a wholesome family game wherein you play honest hardworking
Citizens of Alpha in the ultimate community mission of killing Commies.

<thwack>

Sorry, Citizen, you are not cleared for that information 

<thwack>

Paranoia, (no, really!) is a hilarious rpg where the PC's get to be
denizens of an underground city rules by a Computer run amok. The
computer (aka GM) comes up with nonnsensical missions for the PC's to
complete, then throws as much more silliness their way to keep the game
rolling.

The rules suggest you keep track of your character by simply attaching a
number after the name to keep track of how often you've been scragged,
by Security, any one of a vast number of underground groups, by the
Computer, or often, unwittingly, by some of the wonderful devices that
the Computer's R&D division comes up with. These devices almost never
work as advertized and it is an offense punishable by death to refuse a
Computer order to use these devices.

R&D techs usually bring them to the PC's on tiptoe, place them gently on
the ground, and then run away screaming 'We're Cheetos man!! Game
OVER!!!"

The simplest of these devices would be the short fuse thermonuclear hand
grenade, keyed to the characters handprint. Meaning, the character _has_
to throw it or it doesn't work, the fuse is short enough so that those
evil godless Commies don't throw it back at you, and it really doesn't
matter anyway because the blast radius is roughly 5.6 times the longest
distance that you can throw it and run away anyway...


Great fun for a beer and pretzels game.



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:21:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

On Thu, 6 May 1999, Joseph Kimball wrote:

> Well, if an Amway representative appeared at my door in TL15 Battle
> Dress with an FGMP-15, I would certainly listen a bit more respectfully
> to them.

I don't know...  I just can't see Imperial Troopers polishing up their
armor with those little moist towelettes.   ;)

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 14:00:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

> >>>> (begin quoted material)
> To some extent, yes. On the other hand, a trade war can be fought
> (quite
> legally and acceptably in the 3I) using mercenaries in battle dress
> armed
> with heavy weapons.
> 
> Let's see rogue Amway operatives take on P&G with rumors in *that*
> environment...

At least, until they run into some Mary Kay commandos...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:50:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

SRKOALA@aol.com writes (full of questions!):
><<I prefer T4.1 (slightly higher tasks above difficult) as proposed by Marc
>Miller. MT is a fine (if errata loaded) example of a well written RPG.>>
>Were might I find it?

Email Marc at FarFuture@aol.com and ask him nicely for a copy of the
playtest draft...

>I have found Snapshot something or other for TNE and I think it might work
>with some tweaking for T4, what do you [the entire list] think about it.

Snapshot was for CT. ACQ is better ;-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:36:16 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Plastic Rifle

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:

>Let's see rogue Amway operatives take on P&G with rumors in *that*
>environment...

Okay, but bear in mind P&G has been known to do the same...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:28:05 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Bloo's T4/5 Adv CharGen (was Re: MT vs T4 CharGen)

 Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>A nice email to farfutures@aol.com is your best bet.

FarFuture@aol.com would work better.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:43:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Shipboard Recreation

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
>What are the MT research rules?  What is "Paranoia's R&D Devision?"

The MT Research rules are the task based hypothesis/revision system found
in MT Ref's Companion, as system for running research and investigation.

Paranoia's R&D division refers to friend Computer's R&D division in the
Alpha Complex. cf the Paranoia RPG. Their weapons wouldn't look out of
place amongst those rejected by Famille Spofulam for being too dangerous.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:46:11 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright

 "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:
>>>Haven't yet got the former, and the latter is in my hardcover
>compilation
>>>of all the AMs, behind a glass case, under guard, surrounded by a
>moat.
>>
>>Ditto mine, except for the moat and the guard ;-)
>
>	Good. Where do you live?

Actually, I do have a moat called the Atlantic Ocean, North Sea and English
Channel ;-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:08:15 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS Website - 6/5/99

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

Dear all,

The archive page has been reloaded and should work now. Looks like the
server destroyed it for some reason.

You can download Rob's 101 Starships now....

Regards,

Dom (BITS webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:03:38 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: BITS Website Update 5 May 1999

Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com> wrote:

>The archive button only brings up a blank page.

The server appears to have a problem - I'm on it.

Dom

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #573
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Thursday, May 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 574



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)
Re: MT vs T4 CharGen
Re: Telepresence
trade wars
Corporate Wars:  Was:  Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 (WAYYYYY OT)
Re: Telepresence
Re: Shipboard Recreation
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
Re: Design Limitations
Re: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Invasion Earth (/X-ray lasers)
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: life support (was Re: Core Career Skills)  
T4 Products
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
Re: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)
Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)
Re: Invasion Earth (/X-ray lasers)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 11:50:16 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)

Douglas E. Berry done wrote:
> The German Translator of _The Mercenary_ was a communist.  Really. A member
> of West Germany's Communist party.  When asked to translate the book into
> german, he re-wrote large portions of the book to better highlight the
> "facist" nature of the story.
> 
> Jerry caught up with him at a WorldCon (Bristol, IIRC) and nearly killed
> him.  Evidently, the screaming could be heard throughout the area.

IIRC from Niven's essay on the subject, the translator's 
defense was "you _should_ sound like a fascist, you _are_
a fascist!" -- or something to that effect.

Do I remember rightly that Pournelle in his younger, more
naive days was a communist himself?

- -R

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:47:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 CharGen

trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Are the T5-Beta skill lists and task system available for dissemination,
>'cause I'd love to see them if they are.  However, even if they are not, I
>still have a question: is the T5-Beta task system similar to the T4.1

T4.1 is the T5 beta unless Marc has held back a significant chunk of T5.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 11:56:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

Brannon W. Boren wrote:
> 

> Yes, I must agree. Why, in order to have any chance of breaking a complex
> cypher system, one would practically need to be able to read the mind of
> the guy who designed it, or someone who knows the specs of the device, or
> one of the guys who works on the code updates, or any one of a lot of
> people who'd have a good working knowledge of it. And of course there are
> no enemies of the Imperium with the capability to read minds, right?  ;)

Actually, properly designed cipher routines don't work that way: look at
PGP, or RSA, forinstance. The source code is openly available, yet it is
still a hard cipher to break, _particularly_ when you're doing stuff
like telecom encryption, where the key is changing every few seconds,
and you have a time frame of nanoseconds to break the encryption, take
over the robot and make it do what you want.

Current battlefront commo is encrypted in this fashion, and has been for
a long time. My room mate back in about '83 was working on the software
design for a front lines phone switch, and talked in general fashion
about how it worked.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 15:04:47 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: trade wars

Joseph
>Well, if an Amway representative appeared at my door in TL15 Battle
>Dress with an FGMP-15, I would certainly listen a bit more respectfully
>to them.

They just don't give those out to everybody you know. You have to hit
diamond level before you carry the TL 15 BD & FGMP line.  Once you do
though, the pricing is quite good. :-)


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco." 
                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:07:45 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Corporate Wars:  Was:  Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 (WAYYYYY OT)

Ahhh, yes, a new supplement idea is brewing.

Traveller, The Downline Wars.

or 

Traveller, New Illuminati (pyramids, get it 8^/  )

or 

Striker, Multi-Level Operations Manual

or

Travel <WHACK WHACK WHACK>


...................................................As commander of the
Narn Bat Squad from the Full Thrust Mailing List, I'd like to apologize
for our delay in getting here.  It seems Mr. Clem has suffered worse than
we thought from that pulse torp that went off on his kitchen table last
weekend.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled strangeness.

8^)


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Thu, 06 May 1999 14:00:27 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>At least, until they run into some Mary Kay commandos...
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh 
>sy
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------
>                                                     Science-Fiction 
>Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 14:16:45 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

>> "Thanks for your hard work, Dr. Kivarish, but in order
>> to ensure the security of this wonderful system, we
>> have to complete just one more procedure..." (ZAP!)


Ouch.  Awful hard to make tenure, eh?

> There should be other ways as well, like jamming.  Jam
> the control signals and the robot just stand there.  
> Should be fairly easy.  Bombard the area with meson 
> noise or is a damper to decay the meson early or overload
> the recievers front end with to much signal strength and 
> burn out the reciever. You don't need to know much about 
> the robot do do these things.  EMP bomb them!

Dumping that level of meson energy into the neighborhood 
isn't healthy for anything, let along electronics. As to 
EMP bombs, any EM that can penetrate the hardening of the
suit will be sufficent to fry the battle dress regardless
of whether it is tele-operated or not.  So, unto itself,
EMP isn't a reason not to use telepresense.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 12:25:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Shipboard Recreation

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Shipboard Recreation
...
>The rules suggest you keep track of your character by simply attaching a
>number after the name to keep track of how often you've been scragged,
>by Security, any one of a vast number of underground groups, by the
>Computer, or often, unwittingly, by some of the wonderful devices that
>the Computer's R&D division comes up with. These devices almost never
...

  You mean that the biggest source of casualties _wasn't_ other players?
No that that means friendly fire by any stretch, at least not in Alpha Complex.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 12:25:59 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

...
>> Let's see rogue Amway operatives take on P&G with rumors in *that*
>> environment...
>
>At least, until they run into some Mary Kay commandos...

 Hah! I hear that ACQ already has stats on point-defense penguins...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 12:26:05 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Design Limitations

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Design Limitations (was Re: solid hydrogen fuel)
...
>>  Secondly, combos over 1000-Dt won't have the minimum bridge requirement
>>to operate (2% of Dt). If this doesn't apply then it's a further bonus for
>>the "all tankage is welded drop-tanks" absurdity. FWIW, the Jump Ship in S:9
...
>sub-1000 Dt the cost of the bridge depends on the ship's displacement,
>so your bridge might be big enough but not contain the right sort of
>equipment.

  Good point. I guess I've become envelope fixated what with trying to
shoehorn performance into ships with a x3 power plant size modifier (aka
"missile bays are your friends!").

>Even if it did, there is still a munchkin option - a 200T ship with
>200T tanks has a smaller factor 1 manoeuvre drive than a 400T ship.
>True, you only get 0.5G but that might well be enough for a merchant
...

  I'm so ashamed - this one never occurred to me!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 12:31:19 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> 
> > Jerry caught up with him at a WorldCon (Bristol, IIRC) and nearly killed
> > him.  Evidently, the screaming could be heard throughout the area.
> 
> IIRC from Niven's essay on the subject, the translator's
> defense was "you _should_ sound like a fascist, you _are_
> a fascist!" -- or something to that effect.
>

Have a printed source for that essay?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:28:14 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> >Should in the sense of being the logical outcome of drop tanks.  In no 
way, 
> >do I agree.  :-)  In fact, the "flexible piping thread" firmly entrenched 
me 
> >there (and note I didn't participate).
> 
>   Please keep in mind that AFAIK this thread is about Service Stations as
> drop tank support centers, not B:5-ish abominations that propel their 
victims
> into the icy deeps of hyperspace <yawn>... ; that is, the "flexible piping
> thread" isn't directly relevant - only the rules on drop tanks and resultant
> economic follow-ons matter. And that's CT rules. Yes, CT Rules! <ahem> :)

Guess I am getting the particular station types confused (not that MTU will 
ever see any of em).  :-)

> >I don't think so.  Even if the tech could be worked out (and that will 
face a 
> >fierce debate, don't doubt), the volume of trade going through these 
stations 
> >would require them to be simply massive and even more vulnerable than they 
> >would be if they were small.
>  
>  a) the rules are laid out in HG2/TCS. I don't like them either. The rules
> _"work out" the tech in the game_.

In *that* game.  They're horribly vague and inapropriate for going to the 
level of detail required to make any assumptions.  Obviously IMO.

>  b) Umm, multiple stations? Different companies competing for market share?
> Nah, never happen...

Ok.  4 stations that can each handle still up to millinos of Dts per week?  
8?  How many?  Millions of DTs per week means some pretty big stations for 
even hundreds of stations.

>  c) as for "you don't think so", is that an statement based on an economic
> analysis, a military analysis, or some other sort of opinion?

Err... based on the size of the things these'll have to be for anything on a 
"main" route.  Know what I mean, jelly bean?  I'm leaving economics out of it 
for now (that's a whole different animal that's been rampaging around for 
quite a bit now <g>).  It definately ties in militarily... it's gotta be 
fixed (at least as far as starship combat goes) when you get to that size.

> >Can you make them big enough to take hundreds of thousands, if not 
millions, 
> >of dtons of shipping each *week*, as Far Trade has worlds on the "Main 
> >Routes" doing?  That has got to be a GIGANTIC station.  100 diamters from 
> >that?  ;-)
> 
>   s'OK, we'll make it a disc :)  Ornamental elephants optional...
> But extra tankage (not shuttles, skimmers, etc., though) costs only MCr 0.72
> per 800 D-tons of L-Hyd! And I suspect that cheaper methods (also of dubious
> ethicality, perhaps) may be found. And needless to say, multiple stations
> ( which are after all strictly needed only as maintenance/admin platforms 
for
> the drop tank delivery/handling/refilling industry) are possible too.

Hmm... Seeing the design you sent me (and translating them to english as much 
as possible... i dont' read HG), that's a pretty small scale thing.  You say 
it's scalable up, and it should be, but up the sizes we're talking bout?  A 
BTN 11 route (midway on the "main" routes) has 500,000 to 1,000,000 Dtons 
each week going through, according to Far Trader.  Let's say 750,000.  
107,143 Dtons each day.  4464 an hour, 24 hours a day w/o stop (which isn't 
likely IMO).  What's reasonable to assume here?  

Probably not constant fuel shuttles (nor even merchant ships), but 2 or 3 
"deliveries" of fuel a day?  What do you think?  I'm not going to assume too 
much... you're the one making the case for these beasties aren't you? ;-)  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 12:38:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth (/X-ray lasers)

>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>Subject: Re: Invasion Earth
...
>In G:V, an X-Ray Laser has 1/50th it's space range in an atmosphere.  That
>means that both it's max range and the 1/2D range are reduced that much.
>That still lets the standard GT laser have a 1/2D of over 450 miles (TL10).

  What will that mean for tank (or lighter AFV) Xasers?

>I'm not sure, but I think that's gonna be enough to hit the horizon from
>anything short of orbit.  (I may be wrong here.  hoe do you calculate
>horizon distance as a function of altitude?)

  I happen to have that on my drive, not that I'm going to actually admit
converting Battletech to house-rules Striker or anything equally silly:

>(BTW, what is the horizon line for two 10+ meter tall firing platforms on
> the nominal flat surface of an Earth-sized world?).

Simplifying the math, from the top of a 10 m tower the horizonal line
hits the ground at 11285m and form a 2 m tower it hits the ground at 5050 m. 
So two 10 m towers are partially hidden at 11285 m and out of site at
22570 m. This assumes no atmosphere, with atmosphere the line should be
1 to 2 m above the ground, reducing the range by 2000 - 5000 m.

        Simplified Earth = X = 6 367 445 m radius 
        Hight of tower = h
        Distance to hitting the ground = D
        D = (X + h) * sin (arccos ( X / (X + h)))
                                                - Max.

  Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:28:16 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

> >What bout tight beam commo?  Anything that requires an enormous amount of 
> >computing ability worked in real tight.  The exact tech of the computers 
is 
> >certainly vague, though look at their general capabilities.  If you buy 
the 
> >SoM, Virus should be more than believable.  I don't think anyone proposes 
an 
> >"ordinary" power cable, though.  
> 
>   How does "tight beam commo" differ from a radio broadcast or a CD-ROM dl

As Survival Margin notes, there would be encoding and decoding, correction 
for Doppler shift, tight bean antennae trained on targets with accuracies 
measure in attoradians.  SM stated (reasonably IMO) that all of this was 
taken by the computer to simplify the tasks for crews.  Sent and received by 
teh ships computer then to the crew and Virus would tack it's own "code" on 
there.   Maybe it takes a few milliseconds (would the crew notice?) of lag, 
going both ways, but slowly tacking it's "code" on there. 

> of equal bandwidth? The issue isn't the computers - although a physical

It's precisely an issue of computers IMO. We don't the specifics of how 
and/or why they work, especially w/ the synaptic/organic cores in the really 
advanced ones.  I would definately agree they should be limited to say 
TL-10+, which is also precisely the case.

> composition that wasn't vulnerable to a Cymbeline parasite restructuring
> it a molecule at a time might be safe or highly resistant (a strictly 
> fibre-optic system?? - or vacuum tubes? :> )

Strictly fb would be TL9 IMO.  Vaccum tubes like TL-5.  Both safe.  :-)

>   And frankly, I find the SOM more than a little embarassing; if I ran a
> game full of science students I wouldn't admit to owning it.

heh.  It is pretty neat, but highly dubious in canonicity in places.  I like 
it, but take it w/ a grain of salt (and i'm not going to mention the 
horrendous price I payed for my mint copy).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 15:34:17 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: life support (was Re: Core Career Skills)  

Jim Clem wrote:

>Where are these FFSL rules??

the FF&S LS rules addition/modification are on my website
http://home.att.net/~hensley.cr/Traveller/
under house rules

they need to be reevaluated with the new NASA data.

Charles

okay here is the direct link
http://home.att.net/~hensley.cr/Traveller/hrules/ext_life_support.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:39:07 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: T4 Products

I've been trying to catch up on my TML reading: I'm only about two weeks
behind. 

On Mon, 26 Apr, Jason Kemp wrote:

>I just wanted to ask the general TML public which of the
>following T4 products they would recommend to a fellow TMLer,
>and why.  Any warnings would also be appreciated.  Thanks in
>advance.


Central Supply Catalog
     Grade:  B
     More "stuff" than T4 rulebook, some overlaps, some
differences in costs and capabilities. Some useful ideas on
trading, but I'd use them in combination with a trading rules
supplement.  Useful to both gearheads and others, since the
vehicle design system is an improvement on FFS1.

Emperor's Arsenal
     Grade: B
     Like CSC, this has overlaps with other sources and differs
in costs and capabilities. I like the arrangement of weapons by
TL. The supplemental discussions are also nice. In particular,
the "Tactical roles of modern weapons" is a must-read. If I were
interested in military stuff I would probably rate this higher.

Anomalies
     Grade: C-
     Best if your campaign is set in M:0 and you have the Aliens
Archive. 

Long Way Home
Gateway
     Grade: C+
     A two-part collection of adventures set in M:0. The
hyperspace jump tunnels introduced here do bad things to
canonical jump theory. T4's best discussion of adventuring and
exploration rules, but evidently based on World Builder's guide,
and its only mention of chirpers.

Emperor's Vehicles
     Grade: C-
     If this had been formatted by TL like Emperor's Arsenal and
contined supplemental rules for maintenance and the like, I would
give it an A.   No mentioned of which design system was used, I
can only guess CSC.

Fire, Fusion, & Steel (2)
     Grade: B+
     Based on TNE FFS1 but not entirely consistent with it.
Better in some ways, not as good in others.  

Annilik Run
     Grade: D
     I found very little useful in this collection of adventures.

Naval Architect's Manual
     Grade: B-
     Deckplans for starship components. No numbers and no design
sequences.  I don't care for the flavor of TU the italicized
adventure suggestions present, but there are a few good ideas
there. 

Imperial Squadrons
     Grade: B
     Apparently an attempt to adapt Trillion Credit Squadron to
T4 using FFS2. Although it suggests using the economic system of
Pocket Empires, the economics and combat rules of these two
supplements are entirely incompatible. It does have a nice
breakdown of naval personnel on a ship and suggestions for
Standard operating procedure as well as special duty, extralegal
operations, and fleet justice, plus a few NPCs and adventure
sketches.

Missions of State
     Grade: D
     Like Annilik run, I found little I wanted to use in this
collection of adventures.

>Looking for the better written, more consistent/canonical, 
>add-a-lot-to-my-campaign type of supplements.

IMO, YMMV, etc.
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:28:17 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

> My original point was that while running a TNE campaign a few years back, I
> never came across the concept of the Cymbeline chips as an integral part of
> Virus. To the best of my knowledge, that idea was dropped after Survival
> Margin, as it's not in any of the TNE books I own, and I have almost all of
> them.

I agree w/ your point entirely, though I should point out that Cymbeline *IS* 
mentioned briefly in Vampire Fleets (in the beginning, when talking about 
"Evangelical Doomslayers"), the TNE main book and a couple others, too (IIRC, 
not paging through it right now).  It's also clearly told to be a macguffin.  
The specifics can vary easily from Shadow's "Virus" to something less 
specific.  

In fact, the guidelines are that Virus is supposed to be rare by the New Era, 
not an everyday thing (though an NPC in Vampire Fleets hypothesizes a new 
surge of Virus). 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 14:02:04
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

At 12:25 PM 5/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>...
>>> Let's see rogue Amway operatives take on P&G with rumors in *that*
>>> environment...
>>
>>At least, until they run into some Mary Kay commandos...
>
> Hah! I hear that ACQ already has stats on point-defense penguins...

That is a malicious and untrue rumor!

_At Close Quarters_ does *not* contain rules for point-defense penguins.
They are clearly labeled as *thrown* weapons.

I just wish I had finished the rules for throwing handfuls of Fairy
Penguins as a sort of autofire attack...
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 13:56:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)

At 12:31 PM 5/6/99 -0700, you wrote:

>> IIRC from Niven's essay on the subject, the translator's
>> defense was "you _should_ sound like a fascist, you _are_
>> a fascist!" -- or something to that effect.
>>
>
>Have a printed source for that essay?

It's in either _Playgrounds of the Mind_ or _N-Space_; both of which should
be on every sf fan's shelf.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 14:16:37 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Can someone write a "Sunbeard Declaration" for this subject? (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks)

Wed, 5 May 1999 17:23:20 +0100, Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>

>>I had been thinking about this and outlined vague a short discussion of the
>>issue along the lines of making it a strictly optional rule
>>where the GM is presented with options ranging from from not
>>having drop tanks, to having them but attaching various restrictions,
>>to having them and all their consquences (jump staions, collapable
>>tanks, using jump fuel for weapons, etc.) which I was going
>>to give to whoever wrote Starships.  However, Chris Thrash
>>has decided to handle the stituation himself.

>I haven't seen anything like that, so how about:

Well, a draft of mine is....

[This is a draft.  It is intended to be concise, so it doesn't go into
detail....]

Drop tanks have been the subject of considerable debate.  The issues center
around the argument that, given how they are described, there is no obvious
reason why a ship shouldn't be able to get all its jump fuel from
relatively inexpensive "jump stations", changing the face of shipping in
the Imperium, providing military ships the ability to make a full jump and
still arrive with full internal tanks, etc.  They also have issues
concerning being able to use the energy in the capacitors for weapons,
letting the tanks collapse down against the hull so you can take them with
you, how they relate to the descriptions of jump fuel being used for
non-energy purposes, etc.

However, some GMs prefer to keep them (and some are already using them in
their campaigns and don't want to have start them over).  The best solution
seems to make them an optional rule and let each GM do what is best for
their own campaign.  Some possible approaches are...

1) Drop tanks don't exist.  Either the events describing drop tanks in
Behind the Claw never happened, or they proved that drop tanks simply won't
work.

The advantage is that you have a clean and simple solution that introduces
no problems or handwaves.  This won't work for GMs who are already
committed to them or who simply want them for other reasons.

2) The other extreme is that drop tanks exist, and so do all those
consequences that people go on about.  This would seem to work best if they
are bursting onto the scene as a brand new technology.  As time goes by,
there _are_ jump stations, military ships _don't_ need to jump in low of
fuel and _can_ use the energy from jumping for their weapons, etc.

This introduces new set of possibilities to remake the face of the
Imperium, which can be exciting.  However, to consistently implement all
the changes can take a lot of attention and not everyone wants this to be
the direction of change for their campaigns.

3) Another approach is that drop tanks exist but not as described, or with
a number of unexpected complications.  The approach is for the GM to come
up rationalizations about things like; why drop tanks can't be reused, why
they can't be collapsed down into the hull, why the capacitors can't be
used to power weapons, why they need to be expensive, why they are
dangerous, etc.  With a few of these (how many really depends on how you
look at such things) a GM seeks to restrict the practical uses so that drop
tanks are really only useful for limited purposes (presumably including
those of the PCs).  A GM needs to decide if he wants to also rationalize
why these problems can not be researched and solved or simply let drop
tanks expand in importance sometime in the future.

This allows GMs  to retain drop tanks for their campaigns without having
them remake the face of the Imperium.  However, some will find this
approach contrived and and the fact that the technology "just happens" to
work out in a such a narrow way may seem implausibly contrived.  There is
also always the possibility that the GM may miss an implication that arises
later.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 17:19:51 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth (/X-ray lasers)

At 12:38 PM 5/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Invasion Earth
>...
>>In G:V, an X-Ray Laser has 1/50th it's space range in an atmosphere.  That
>>means that both it's max range and the 1/2D range are reduced that much.
>>That still lets the standard GT laser have a 1/2D of over 450 miles (TL10).
>
>  What will that mean for tank (or lighter AFV) Xasers?
I believe that in Star Mercs the listed xaser ranges are in-atmosphere.
The VE2 convention is to make the calculations for in-atmosphere stuff, and
then multiply by 50 (or whatever, based on weapon type) for space.  It's
only in GT that they list the space range in miles (usually it's atmosphere
range in yards).  

>>I'm not sure, but I think that's gonna be enough to hit the horizon from
>>anything short of orbit.  (I may be wrong here.  hoe do you calculate
>>horizon distance as a function of altitude?)
>
>  I happen to have that on my drive, not that I'm going to actually admit
>converting Battletech to house-rules Striker or anything equally silly:
>
>>(BTW, what is the horizon line for two 10+ meter tall firing platforms on
>> the nominal flat surface of an Earth-sized world?).
>
>Simplifying the math, from the top of a 10 m tower the horizonal line
>hits the ground at 11285m and form a 2 m tower it hits the ground at 5050 m. 
>So two 10 m towers are partially hidden at 11285 m and out of site at
>22570 m. This assumes no atmosphere, with atmosphere the line should be
>1 to 2 m above the ground, reducing the range by 2000 - 5000 m.
>
>        Simplified Earth = X = 6 367 445 m radius 
>        Hight of tower = h
>        Distance to hitting the ground = D
>        D = (X + h) * sin (arccos ( X / (X + h)))
>                                                - Max.

Is that "minus Max"?  or is that a sig?  Does this still work for large
values of h (3000m+) or will some approximation/assumption break down at
that range?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #574
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Thursday, May 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 575



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Subject: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)
Re: Scientology (was: Re: Invasion Earth)
Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
Re: Invasion Earth (/X-ray lasers)
Re: Invasion Earth
[none]
[none]
Trav Rules on CD 
Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam
Re: help unsubscribe - handled
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
[OT]Re: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)
ACQ
Jesse has been found
Re: Jesse has been found
Imperial Military
Questions
Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Megatraveller Erratta
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam 
Re: Jesse has been found 
Re: Questions 
Re: Questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 14:32:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Subject: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)

Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>

>Douglas E. Berry done wrote:
>> The German Translator of _The Mercenary_ was a communist.  Really. A 
>> member of West Germany's Communist party.  When asked to translate the 
>> book into german, he re-wrote large portions of the book to better 
>> highlight the "facist" nature of the story.
>
>> Jerry caught up with him at a WorldCon (Bristol, IIRC) and nearly killed
>> him.  Evidently, the screaming could be heard throughout the area.

>IIRC from Niven's essay on the subject, the translator's
>defense was "you _should_ sound like a fascist, you _are_
>a fascist!" -- or something to that effect.

Hmm, not a story I'd heard, cool.  While admittedly not in the best taste,
I can certainly sympathize.  In my book, Pournelle *is* a fascist. 

I'd love to see that version of the book retranstlated back into English.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 22:10:20 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Scientology (was: Re: Invasion Earth)

On Thu, 6 May 1999 02:07:14 -0400, SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 99-05-05 18:08:58 EDT, you write:

><< ... and lost the bet.  The way I'd heard the story, Heinlein
> proposed a bet that nobody could come up with a religion so
> screwy that nobody would believe it.  Hubbard took the short end
> of that bet, and created Dianetics and then Scientology.  Both
> "succeeded", and Hubbard was later taken in by his own
> Frankenstein's Monster (Scientology).

>xxxx
>You're kiding? right?
>xxxx

Not in the least.  This is the story I've heard, _many_ times,
and it's remarkably consistent in the telling (unlike some of the
legendary SCA stories, where the person and the locale change
with the phase of the moon, the teller, and the locale of the
recounting).  And Hubbard _did_ die a Scientologist.
 
> >: (If you're wondering I'm an athiest [how ever it may be spelled])
 
> Atheist.  You were close. >>

>Ah, well thats one nice thing about the human brain (and spell checkers) is 
>that they can aproximate things like that.

Actually, it's a good demonstration of the high level of
redundant information in our language representations.  There's a
whole science ("information theory") that deals with these sorts
of things.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 18:01:26 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)

Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
>Douglas E. Berry done wrote:
>> The German Translator of _The Mercenary_ was a communist.  Really. A member
>> of West Germany's Communist party.  When asked to translate the book into
>> german, he re-wrote large portions of the book to better highlight the
>> "facist" nature of the story.
>> Jerry caught up with him at a WorldCon (Bristol, IIRC) and nearly killed
>> him.  Evidently, the screaming could be heard throughout the area.
>IIRC from Niven's essay on the subject, the translator's 
>defense was "you _should_ sound like a fascist, you _are_
>a fascist!" -- or something to that effect.
>Do I remember rightly that Pournelle in his younger, more
>naive days was a communist himself?

That's the story put forth in a rather interesting book called The Dreams
Our Stuff Is Made of : How Science Fiction Conquered the World by Thomas M.
Disch.

He also points out the RAH once ran for public office as Democrat.
It's a good book with a lot of background on SF and how it effected our
culture.
The author does seem rather put out over the fact that more conservative
authors had more effect than the left-of-Ted-Kennedy authors like himself.
He does attack a certain liberal group with the same fever that he saves
for the SF-Military authors at Baen Books.  The "if it has a penis, it must
be bad" feminists.

Even if you don't agree with the author's views, it's a good book for the
thinking SciFi reader.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
          You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:14:45 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

- -----Original Message-----
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans


>I agree w/ your point entirely, though I should point out that Cymbeline
*IS*
>mentioned briefly in Vampire Fleets (in the beginning, when talking about
>"Evangelical Doomslayers"), the TNE main book and a couple others, too
(IIRC,
>not paging through it right now).  It's also clearly told to be a
macguffin.
>The specifics can vary easily from Shadow's "Virus" to something less
>specific.


I don't recall a mention in either book... *shrug*

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 15:30:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
...
>>   How does "tight beam commo" differ from a radio broadcast or a CD-ROM dl
>
>As Survival Margin notes, there would be encoding and decoding, correction 
>for Doppler shift, tight bean antennae trained on targets with accuracies 
>measure in attoradians.  SM stated (reasonably IMO) that all of this was 
>taken by the computer to simplify the tasks for crews.  Sent and received by 
>teh ships computer then to the crew and Virus would tack it's own "code" on 
>there.   Maybe it takes a few milliseconds (would the crew notice?) of lag, 
>going both ways, but slowly tacking it's "code" on there. 

  And because it's concentrating so hard on doing all the number-crunching it
physically mutates into a Cymbeline chip? And if physical configuration isn't
an issue, then why bother with having the SDG boxes be a vector in the first
place?

... 
>it, but take it w/ a grain of salt (and i'm not going to mention the 
>horrendous price I payed for my mint copy).

  Please do - I'd like to know how much my spare is worth :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 15:31:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
...
>> Hah! I hear that ACQ already has stats on point-defense penguins...
>
>That is a malicious and untrue rumor!
>
>_At Close Quarters_ does *not* contain rules for point-defense penguins.
>They are clearly labeled as *thrown* weapons.

  What if you racked them in boxes with spark plugs by their butts? Would
that be OK for encouraging them to self-deploy as a salvo? And they're
already self-guiding...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 15:48:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth (/X-ray lasers)

>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>Subject: Re: Invasion Earth (/X-ray lasers)
...
>>  What will that mean for tank (or lighter AFV) Xasers?
>I believe that in Star Mercs the listed xaser ranges are in-atmosphere.
>The VE2 convention is to make the calculations for in-atmosphere stuff, and
>then multiply by 50 (or whatever, based on weapon type) for space.  It's
>only in GT that they list the space range in miles (usually it's atmosphere
>range in yards).  

  So the 360 (mw?) xaser on p.66 does 1050 ave. dmg, w/ a max range of one
megameter; obviously a PD weapon when tanks have 10,000+ DR. Can you not
design anti-armour lasers anymore? - they were fairly common in Striker.

...
>>                                                - Max.
>
>Is that "minus Max"?  or is that a sig?  Does this still work for large
>values of h (3000m+) or will some approximation/assumption break down at
>that range?

  Don't know about the math; Max is the surveyor who provided the info :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:03:23 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth

Juliean Galak  wrote:

>In G:V, an X-Ray Laser has 1/50th it's space range in an atmosphere.  That
>means that both it's max range and the 1/2D range are reduced that much.
>That still lets the standard GT laser have a 1/2D of over 450 miles (TL10).
>
>I'm not sure, but I think that's gonna be enough to hit the horizon from
>anything short of orbit.  (I may be wrong here.  hoe do you calculate
>horizon distance as a function of altitude?)

Trigonometry. Even so, 100 miles *is* in low orbit, so a laser with an
atmosphere range of 450 miles can be used as ortillery.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:13:27 +0100
From: "James Watson" <jswatson@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: [none]

Unsubscribe traveller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:18:34 +0100
From: "James Watson" <jswatson@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: [none]

help

- -----Original Message-----
From: James Watson <jswatson@easynet.co.uk>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 21 March 1999 11:42
Subject: Unsubscribe 


>
>Unsubscribe traveller
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 19:29:54 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Trav Rules on CD 

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:

> William Barnett-Lewis
> >
> >Hello,
> >Before I set done to do all this myself, has anyone else scanned in the
> MT
> >rules and applied the errata? I have the full set and this would be for
> my
> >use only. It would be nice if I could keep a copy of the rules on my
> Power
> >Book for example...
>
> I also would love a copy. I've been collecting Traveller since 1980 and
> MT was my favorite of all the versions. Unfortunately my scanner
> (or at least my skill with it) does a poor job of scanning the MT
> material in a modifiable format. Proving I already have copies
> of the books to satisfy copyrights would be easy.

FYI.: Copyright doesn't work that way.  Simply, you'd be making a copy
and you don't have the right.

A PDF or HTML version of all the iterations of Traveller would be
very convenient though.  I'd be willing to pay for CD with all of these,
with errate incoroporated of course.  Since its just text for the vast
majority, this shouldn't be too difficult and undertaking.

I don't know how marketable it would be overall, but I'd buy 3
to help encourage it being done.

Marc? Is this even conceivable?  I suspect you could farm out the
work of burning CDs very easily.
- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 01:14:32 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam

>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: Adding to Familie Spofulam?
>
>Do the creators Familie Spofulam keep reins on the
>family, or are we free to create a new member?

I think probationary membership would be the way to go. It's really
Roderick's decision, but he's incommunicado, practicing law somewhere in
Canada ... 

>
>You see, I have this idea for a musical instrument/weapon
>that just *has* to come from Familie Spofulam.  And I
>thought a new family member, Ludwig aka Ludwiggy,
>would be the perfect architect of this, uhm, 'explosive'
>instrument.

Did you see the FS Sound System/Riot Control Device I sent to the list some
time ago ? A combination of a dirty great big HEPLAR jet with mucho
contragravity, designed to have net nil thrust, with only all the sound
effects from 50 kN or so of Heplar ...

Yeah, Luddie should post. I'll decide on whether he's a Spofulam, an
employee or something escaped from Maaaaartketing after we see what he can
do :)

Ian Whitchurchl, Personal Assistant to Ms Ditzammer Spofulam, Executive
Vice-President, Famile Spofulam

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 16:36:16 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: help unsubscribe - handled

FYI, I have privately emailled the inquiring party directions for
unsubscribing.  Sorry to waste the bandwith with this message, but
hopefully this will deter flames and multiple responses.

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 19:38:56 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> > >>>> (begin quoted material)
> >
> > Let's see rogue Amway operatives take on P&G with rumors in *that*
> > environment...
>
> At least, until they run into some Mary Kay commandos...

Umm, before you laugh too much at that, I have some personal connections
to former MK executives.  (No I'm not upset by the MK Commandos
reference).  MK itself is owned by a company, at least in very large part,
that owns lots of other companies around the globe.  One in particular
makes some of the highest quality body armor available (the name
escapes me but its NYSE traded company, IIRC).  The other company
of interest provides elite 'security' services outside of the US to the US
government.  By forming local companies in Country X, they are able
to have resources, equipments, and legal permission to do things that
US government representatives cannot do outside of US extraterritorial
areas.  Combined with robotic technology at some of the Mary Kay
storage and manufacturing facilities (really cool stuff, btw), another company
that owns and charters jets and has its own airfields in some places,
and the muffin-making company, you have the potential for a
Mary Kay Global Strike Force.

I'm not making any of this up.  Except that there is no real Strike
Force.  So far as you know.  No comment on MK does business
in Russia.  ;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 19:42:21 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT]Re: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)

Mark Urbin wrote:

> The author does seem rather put out over the fact that more conservative
> authors had more effect than the left-of-Ted-Kennedy authors like himself.

You think Ted Kennedy's really on the left?
Try getting between him and his Scotch.

;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 19:45:46 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: ACQ

> >From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> ...
> >> Hah! I hear that ACQ already has stats on point-defense penguins...
> >
> >That is a malicious and untrue rumor!
> >
> >_At Close Quarters_ does *not* contain rules for point-defense penguins.
> >They are clearly labeled as *thrown* weapons.

Okay, okay.  Stop with the ACQ references or the "When" question
will flood the list.

Or you could nip it in the bud by saying.  ;-)

I know, I know.  "In beta"; "being shopped around to publishers";
etc., etc.  I recommend self-publishing.  Keep the money yourself.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:21:30 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Jesse has been found

Well, Jesse was on vacation for a while and tells me when he returned Acer 
had gone through a "work force reduction" and he was part of that.  Yes, that 
does suck!  He will be back on the list in a few days, perhaps a week.  He 
can be reached with email at our Vision-Forge-Graphics web site.  Just 
thought everyone would like to know that he wasn't captured by Vargr or 
experimented on by the greys.

Todd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:09:13 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Jesse has been found

Do we need to resend any email we sent to him during the last couple of
weeks?
I am waiting on an important reply that I am not sure got to him.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tascelt@aol.com <Tascelt@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:55 PM
Subject: Jesse has been found


>Well, Jesse was on vacation for a while and tells me when he returned Acer
>had gone through a "work force reduction" and he was part of that.  Yes,
that
>does suck!  He will be back on the list in a few days, perhaps a week.  He
>can be reached with email at our Vision-Forge-Graphics web site.  Just
>thought everyone would like to know that he wasn't captured by Vargr or
>experimented on by the greys.
>
>Todd

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:50:30 +1000
From: "Peter McNae" <pm@zip.com.au>
Subject: Imperial Military

I was just pondering about how big the Imperial Army, Marines and Navy
is. In MT:Rebellion Sourcebook you get a good idea for the number of
fleets. But not much reference to how many ground troops
(Army/Marines) are available to the Imperium.

Anyone know of canon figures on this? Or any opinions on the sizes?

Peter McNae,
"Reality is for people who can't handle Science Fiction"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 17:53:17 MST
From: "Jim Moss" <jkmoss@hotmail.com>
Subject: Questions

I've been away from Traveller, and the list, for about three years (right 
after Starships came out, I think), and I've got a few questions.

1.  What's T4.1?  Is it just T4 with the official errata applied, or is it 
something more?

2.  Are there errata for anything except T4 and CSC?

3.  What was the outcome of the "Skill Rolls Concentrate Too Much On The 
Characteristic" argument that was ongoing so long ago?

4.  What T4 book has letter "F" on the spine?  I thought I had the whole 
collection, but a quick peek at my shelf tells me I'm wrong.

5.  Is anyone in Phoenix playing Traveller (any version) and might consider 
an additional player?  My gaming group has half its members (and both GMs) 
getting promoted and moving to other cities, so I find myself without any RP 
for the first time in three years.

It's good to see the list is still as active as ever...

Thanks,

Jim Moss


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:52:34 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

Dear Folks -

Dom wrote:
>Snapshot was for CT. ACQ is better ;-)

Yeah, but *where* and *when* is it available??  :-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 11:15:16 +1000 
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Megatraveller Erratta

Megatraveller Erratta

Hey, are people still looking for MT Errata? Well if so, it can be found at:

http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/mterrata.rtf
<http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/mterrata.rtf> 

Apologies if this has already been mailed to the TML.

Michael Hughes

Email:	michael.hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au
<mailto:michael.hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:18:07 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

> >From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> ...
> >> Hah! I hear that ACQ already has stats on point-defense penguins...
> >
> >That is a malicious and untrue rumor!
> >
> >_At Close Quarters_ does *not* contain rules for point-defense penguins.
> >They are clearly labeled as *thrown* weapons.
> 
>   What if you racked them in boxes with spark plugs by their butts? Would
> that be OK for encouraging them to self-deploy as a salvo? And they're
> already self-guiding...

Forget about penguins, what's the ACQ stats for fluffy pillows and comfy chairs???

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:19:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam 

> >Do the creators Familie Spofulam keep reins on the
> >family, or are we free to create a new member?
> 
> I think probationary membership would be the way to go. It's really
> Roderick's decision, but he's incommunicado, practicing law somewhere in
> Canada ... 

<sigh>  And Roderick showed *SO* much promise...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:20:29 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Jesse has been found 

> Well, Jesse was on vacation for a while and tells me when he returned Acer 
> had gone through a "work force reduction" and he was part of that.  Yes, that 
> does suck!  He will be back on the list in a few days, perhaps a week.  He 
> can be reached with email at our Vision-Forge-Graphics web site.  Just 
> thought everyone would like to know that he wasn't captured by Vargr or 
> experimented on by the greys.

Yeahyeahsuresure, that's what they ALL say!!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:23:58 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Questions 

> I've been away from Traveller, and the list, for about three years (right 
> after Starships came out, I think), and I've got a few questions.
> 
> 1.  What's T4.1?  Is it just T4 with the official errata applied, or is it 
> something more?

It's the unofficial nickname for the upcoming T5 version that's forthcoming 
sometime this year, when it's right.
 
> 2.  Are there errata for anything except T4 and CSC?

Supposed to be some errata around for MT, but I haven't a clue where it is on 
the web.
 
> 5.  Is anyone in Phoenix playing Traveller (any version) and might consider 
> an additional player?  My gaming group has half its members (and both GMs) 
> getting promoted and moving to other cities, so I find myself without any RP 
> for the first time in three years.

You try checking in on some of the PBEMs floating around?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:38:28 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Questions

Jim Moss wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> 2.  Are there errata for anything except T4 and CSC?

Try Joe Heck's site at:

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/

<<snip>>
> 
> 4.  What T4 book has letter "F" on the spine?  I thought I had the whole
> collection, but a quick peek at my shelf tells me I'm wrong.
> 
IIRC, that was the designation reserved for _Nobles_, which was never
released.

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #575
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest         Friday, May 7 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 576



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[OT]Re: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
Re: Striker?
Re: Imperial Military
Re: Trav Rules on CD
Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions
Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Traveller Geek Code
Re: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)
Re: MT vs T4 CharGen
Re: Shipboard Recreation
Re: Biotech
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: life support (was Re: Core Career Skills)
Re: Invasion Earth (/X-ray lasers)
Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: hair spray
Re: Core Career Skills
Re: Imperial Military
Re: Traveller Geek Code
Re: hair spray 
Re: Trav Rules on CD
Re: hair spray 
Re: Artificial Intelligence
Re: Imperial Military
Re: Scientology (was: Re: Invasion Earth)
Re: Corporate Wars:  Was:  Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 (WAYYYYY OT)
Re: Telepresence
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)
Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Telepresence
Re: Shipboard Recreation
Re: hair spray
Re: hair spray
Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 22:18:04 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: [OT]Re: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)

Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> types:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>> The author does seem rather put out over the fact that more conservative
>> authors had more effect than the left-of-Ted-Kennedy authors like himself.
>You think Ted Kennedy's really on the left?
>Try getting between him and his Scotch.

   NO THANK YOU!  Our Senior Senator is a lot of fun.  I may not agree with
a lot of him politics, but damn it!  He's *our* 800 pound Gorilla in the
Senate! He was hysterical during his last election.  In the two weeks prior
to the election, he was touring the state handing out pork barrel checks
left, right and center.  As he was handing one over, he said, on TV, "This
is why you need to re-elect me."

  Ob-Trav:  One of the patrons in my current campaign in "Senior-Repetitive
Bunkenkameraden."
Hmmm...or should that be Ob-Bloom County?


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
          I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one.
                   http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:52:12 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

In a message dated 5/6/99 4:42:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:

<< t in very large part,
 that owns lots of other companies around the globe.  One in particular
 makes some of the highest quality body armor available (the name
 escapes me but its NYSE traded company, IIRC). >>

could it be Point Blank?...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:22:09 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Striker?

In a message dated 5/6/99 12:18:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca writes:

<< 
   Well, once I saw that Striker was a compatible expansion (and the related
 JTAS article) I dropped the "Characters & Combat" section real fast. And for
 those who didn't want all the heavy iron you could achieve the same effect
 by simply buying "Snapshot" - another game that has aged pretty gracefully.
  >>
	I must admit that I was tempted to do that as well, but in the 
interim MT came out and I switched to that (still used Striker for morale and 
initiative however).    Never got a good look at Snapshot, but wish I had.  
Still, vehicle rules in the main book of a Sci-Fi game seems to me a 
necessity.

		Dave nelson

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:57:22 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Imperial Military

Dear Folks -

Figures for ground troops could be taken from the 5FW boardgame. The is
also an article on the topic of on-planet (local) battalions in an early
JTAS, #10, I think.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:59:05 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Trav Rules on CD

Dear Folks -

Bloo said:
>FYI.: Copyright doesn't work that way.  Simply, you'd be making a copy
>and you don't have the right.

a. Someone on the TML suggested that you can make one copy yourself for
personal use, you just need to destroy it if you ever resell the original
work. I *believe* they have confused this with software, and you can only
copy a certain percentage of a text-based publication (such as one chapter,
max).

b. In any case, Marc has stated that we are allowed to copy out-of-print
material. See the FAQ on my website.

>A PDF or HTML version of all the iterations of Traveller would be
>very convenient though.  I'd be willing to pay for CD with all of these,

I believe that this is what the "Traveller on CD" project is all about. See
Brian Borich for details.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:40:03 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

In a message dated 5/6/99 2:55:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

<< 
 In T4, I have *no* idea about what happens if you shoot a starship with an
 FGMP-15 (not that the weapon even seems to exist in T4, unless you count
 the over-the-shoulder monstrosity in Emperor's Arsenal!!)
 
 Any clue from the T4 players? >>

	If you use the conversion rules from Emperor's Arsenal  then some of 
your heavier plasma weapons would be the same as a 1 factor starship weapon 
attack, I wish I had the book in front of me so I could tell you exactly, but 
vehicle weapons certainly have a chance of inflicting a surface explosion on 
a starship which has a small chance of becoming an interior explosion, which 
has a small chance of becoming "ship explodes".  Some of the really big 
plasma cannons could rip the guts right out of a starship that got close 
enough.   As for Fusion weapons, (FGMP etc) I suppose that in Year 0, there 
were no records of Second Imperium versions and no theoretical models of 
portable fusion guns, so they weren't included.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:31:46 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

In a message dated 5/6/99 1:51:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SRKOALA@aol.com 
writes:

<< ere might I find it?
 I have found Snapshot something or other for TNE and I think it might work 
 with some tweaking for T4, what do you [the entire list] think about it.
 -Stephen
  >>

	I've heard tell that BITS is going to issue a Snapshot like 
supplement called At CLose Quarters (or something like that) for T4 in the 
near future, that might do the trick.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:39:54 MST
From: "Jim Moss" <jkmoss@hotmail.com>
Subject: Traveller Geek Code

Where is the Geek Code located now?  The link in the FAQ is dead...

Jim


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:58:44 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pournelle and the Translator (was Re: Today is Camerone Day)

Does anyone know whether Pournelle plans to right any sequels to the 
Falkenberg/Sparta series?   I would like to see "what happens" at the 
foundation of the Spartan Empire,  it would be very Traveller appropriate 
(especially Mileau 0 or TNE).   I know that much of the CoDominium premise 
has been rendered moot by world events, nevertheless they were all good reads.

		Dave "must be a fascist too" Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:47:39 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: MT vs T4 CharGen

In a message dated 5/6/99 6:24:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
SciFiFan56@aol.com writes:

<< Is what I am hearing is that people are generally thinking that MT is 
 superior to T4 in the character generation and combat areas? If I remember 
 correctly wasn't GDW's decision to can the MT rules for a set of GURPS-like 
 house rules a point of disagreement between GDW and Miller? I've played 
both, 
 (actually own both which are both collecting dust on my shelves) and am 
 fascinated by this discussion.  >>

	I'm not in 100% agreement with that.  Both T4 and MT are equally good 
at character generation, essentially modifications of CT.  (All three systems 
"feel" the same and use the same basic ideas with a few minor differences).  
I think MT combat is more complete and the ability to fully integrate 
personal, vehicle and starship combat is a big plus, but T4 combat is faster 
and easier to explain to players (and doesn't have interrupts which I felt 
mucked things up in play).

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:26:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipboard Recreation

In a message dated 99-05-06 14:29:07 EDT, you write:

<< Paranoia's R&D division refers to friend Computer's R&D division in the
 Alpha Complex. cf the Paranoia RPG. Their weapons wouldn't look out of
 place amongst those rejected by Famille Spofulam for being too dangerous. >>

I see.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:32:36 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Biotech

In a message dated 99-05-06 06:48:35 EDT, you write:

<<    I have been toying with the idea myself. I read an article in one of my
 Traveller mags (forgot which one) that discusses the TL for certain types
 of Bio/Cyber wear. I'll see if I can't find the article again and tell you
 where it is.
  >>

Thanks
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:42:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

In a message dated 99-05-06 04:52:37 EDT, you write:

<<   Activating an SDG (and giving it instructions at the same time) via
 commo, sure. Parasatizing a system in physical proximity, sure (and a
 sign of infection would be little worm-trails of semi-conductor tracing
 a path along your wiring, with a Cymbeline manipulator node worming its
 way forward at the "working face"). A signal designed to tell an SDG
 to become a DoomSlayer hitting your Model/2-equivalent college library
 system and turning into an SDG-type Vampire? Nope. Not even close. >>

I think that it would also infect humans, as it could mimic spacific 
operashions, any ideas?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:48:57 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: life support (was Re: Core Career Skills)

In a message dated 99-05-06 12:37:37 EDT, you write:

<< Where are these FFSL rules?? >>

http://home.att.net/~hensley.cr/Traveller/hrules/ext_life_support.html
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 22:00:29 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Invasion Earth (/X-ray lasers)

	I did notice that while in CT  lasers were mentioned as main battle 
tank weaponry for the early stellar TL's, in T4 there are no example of 
"cannon" sized laser weapons.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:59:15 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

In a message dated 99-05-06 23:19:02 EDT, you write:

<< 	I've heard tell that BITS is going to issue a Snapshot like 
 supplement called At CLose Quarters (or something like that) for T4 in the 
 near future, that might do the trick. >>

Ahh, cool, one less thing to do.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:56:07 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-06 06:16:25 EDT, you write:

<< Compared to most of the characters in our equivalent of the Dorsai, the
 Lustre Family, he was not at all combat-oriented, but he kept gettting into
 places where he had to pretend to be a "real" soldier, because, well he was
 one of the Lustre mercenaries, wasn't he ?
 
 But, it's amazing what one can do with a high Admin skill... >>

Speaking of high Admin does anyone have good ideas for a REALY bad leader but 
got elected (or apointed) becouse of high soc or leadership?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:37:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Core Career Skills

In a message dated 99-05-06 03:06:24 EDT, you write:

<< > What does Steward do and does it have an equiv in T4?
 
 In the strictest sense, its the care and feeding of passengers.
 Think Julie, Isaac and Gopher.
 
 IIRC, some versions have it include freight-handling. >>

Thanks.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 23:34:47 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Military

 
>Anyone know of canon figures on this? Or any opinions on the sizes?

 Howzabout "really *FREAKIN'* huge!"? Lets assume military duty is unpopular and only .1% of the population ever joins *any* military - how many trillions of citizens does the Imperium have? One planet with a pop of 10 billion would generate about 10 million military; divide that by the fact that they won't all be 'in' at once - 2 million at a time, say (I feel a breeze from my hands....). Let's assume this is what we get, roughly, per 2 populated subsector, round to 15 million per sector.... Further assume only 20% are Impies - 3 million Imperial military per sector, or so. Figure 1/2 are Navy, the others evenly divided between marines and army; Ignoring advanced computers (and 3,000 years of using computers) and other tech and figure only 1/3 actually enter combat zones and that only 1/3 of them are front line units - that's about 325,000 front-line ground troops per sector, assume budget restraints limit them to 25,000 in battle dress. That is the equivalent of a US Army Di!
!
vision of BD drop troops per sector, and I really, really think my numbers are low. I assume that when there is news of fighting for planets that we are discussing .5-1.2 million combat troops per side. 
 Now, looking at the existence of wealthy mercenary units, their use by corporations, the advantages of military service, etc., IMTU I increase these figures by about 20 times and increase the efficiency so that each sector can field approx. 800,000 front-line combat troops, almost 2.5 million ground troops total. And I also feel that fully 10% of front line troops are in BD - so if war is suspected, I think the Impies could potentially field a coherent drop unit of 150,000 BD troops with full combined-arms support and a convential follow-on of 1.2 million more fighting sophonts, twice that many in support roles. And if you want to get all creepy, I think that in specific settings (say, a frontier war with the Zhodani, where there may be years of tension) and with the 'right' outlook (the Imperium actively encourages military service and it is highly regarded by the populace at large) you could argue for the potential of a 1 million trooper BD drop group creating an orbit-head!
!
 for a 10 million trooper follow-on force ...   and that this would represent 2 sectors of combat troops. This would be accompanied by perhaps thousands of transport and drop ships, as well as orbital bombardment ships


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:30:03 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Geek Code

www.downport.com/eaglestone 

Please make a note of it ;-)



- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jim Moss <jkmoss@hotmail.com>

: Where is the Geek Code located now?  The link in the FAQ is dead...

===


Log Losteraomirall C. Michael,
Geimdeild sambandshersins, Gram Floti:
Leiotogi af hinn Jaoar Uppreisn
~Skald af hinn CT Afturkoma~
[ http://www.downport.com/ct ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 00:37:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: hair spray 

> In a message dated 99-05-06 06:16:25 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Compared to most of the characters in our equivalent of the Dorsai, the
>  Lustre Family, he was not at all combat-oriented, but he kept gettting into
>  places where he had to pretend to be a "real" soldier, because, well he was
>  one of the Lustre mercenaries, wasn't he ?
>  
>  But, it's amazing what one can do with a high Admin skill... >>
> 
> Speaking of high Admin does anyone have good ideas for a REALY bad leader but 
> got elected (or apointed) becouse of high soc or leadership?

At the risk of getting flamed badly, try Poland under Wolensa or Yugoslavia 
under Milosovech.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:02:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trav Rules on CD

In a message dated 99-05-06 23:06:19 EDT, you write:

<< a. Someone on the TML suggested that you can make one copy yourself for
 personal use, you just need to destroy it if you ever resell the original
 work. I *believe* they have confused this with software, and you can only
 copy a certain percentage of a text-based publication (such as one chapter,
 max).

xxxx
Yeap thats how it works, if you keep the orgianl ideas but change the wording 
then its leagle.
xxxx
 
 b. In any case, Marc has stated that we are allowed to copy out-of-print
 material. See the FAQ on my website.
 
 >A PDF or HTML version of all the iterations of Traveller would be
 >very convenient though.  I'd be willing to pay for CD with all of these,
 
 I believe that this is what the "Traveller on CD" project is all about. See
 Brian Borich for details. >>

- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:55:39 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray 

In a message dated 99-05-07 00:44:58 EDT, you write:

<< At the risk of getting flamed badly, try Poland under Wolensa or 
Yugoslavia 
 under Milosovech. >>

Thats what I was going for, any ideas of Milosovech's stats in T4?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:30:40 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence

In a message dated 99-05-06 11:38:06 EDT, you write:

<< Thinking Machines Emerging
 http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/emergent990505.html >>

Interesting, eh?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 00:47:08 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Military

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> Figures for ground troops could be taken from the 5FW boardgame. The is
> also an article on the topic of on-planet (local) battalions in an early
> JTAS, #10, I think.

Looking over my copy of 5FW, I see the following unit counts for
Imperial-level forces (assuming that the used copy I purchased has all
the counters):

Field armies (5C):        8  
Army corps (1C):          6
Army divisons (20):       8
Army brigades (10):       4
Army regiments (5):       1
Army Jump regiments (5):  3
Marine regiments (5):     8

Assuming that, on average, each combat point is equal to one combat
battalion, each of which has an average of 500 combat personnel, we get
the following troop strengths:

Field armies (5C):        2,000,000 personnel  
Army corps (1C):          300,000 personnel
Army divisons (20):       80,000 personnel
Army brigades (10):       20,000 personnel
Army regiments (5):       2,500 personnel
Army Jump regiments (5):  7500 personnel
Marine regiments (5):     20,000 personnel

for a grand total of:     2,430,000 combat personnel

Of these, 27,500 are probably equipped with battledress.  IMTU, Imperial
Marine forces would be used in regiment-level drops, while the Imperial
Army jump troops would be more likely used in multi-regiment drops.

Units not included in the above count are colonial forces and mercenary
units on contract to the Imperium.

And this is for a relatively underpopulated sector (though, admittedly,
a border sector).

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:07:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Scientology (was: Re: Invasion Earth)

In a message dated 99-05-06 18:08:20 EDT, you write:

<< Not in the least.  This is the story I've heard, _many_ times,
 and it's remarkably consistent in the telling (unlike some of the
 legendary SCA stories, where the person and the locale change
 with the phase of the moon, the teller, and the locale of the
 recounting).  And Hubbard _did_ die a Scientologist. >>

Well, thats, umm, well, wierd.  Giant clams from space?  Well, I bet they 
don't tast as good as the baby clams that you can get in the supermarket.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:25:32 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Corporate Wars:  Was:  Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 (WAYYYYY OT)

In a message dated 99-05-06 15:13:39 EDT, you write:

<< ...................................................As commander of the
 Narn Bat Squad from the Full Thrust Mailing List, I'd like to apologize
 for our delay in getting here.  It seems Mr. Clem has suffered worse than
 we thought from that pulse torp that went off on his kitchen table last
 weekend.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled strangeness. >>

Well, I guess there is more crossing over than I thought.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:30:10 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Telepresence

In a message dated 99-05-06 15:00:43 EDT, you write:

<< Current battlefront commo is encrypted in this fashion, and has been for
 a long time. My room mate back in about '83 was working on the software
 design for a front lines phone switch, and talked in general fashion
 about how it worked. >>

And both of you are stile living?  Most interesting, I'll have to inform the 
proper athories about this breach:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 01:33:39 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
<<snips intro to Scientology discussion>>

> I recall something about a giant clam from outer
> space that is the primary source of our human
> genetic pain.  And scientology is an attempt to free
> your brain from the impulses and instinctive reactions
> to that pain; the idea being that unless you free yourself
> from this genetic-memory pain, that you're not really
> 'thinking', but 'reacting' as an animal would.
> 
> (I'm not making the clam thing up).

A giant star goat, I could believe, but _space clams_?!?  From where do
they draw this pearl of wisdom?

Talk about your half-baked ideas....(No offense intended, Phil.)

Refraining from any number of off-color references....

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:36:23 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

In a message dated 99-05-06 14:26:24 EDT, you write:

<< Email Marc at FarFuture@aol.com and ask him nicely for a copy of the
 playtest draft... >>

I'll do that.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:41:02 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Telepresence

In a message dated 99-05-06 13:20:52 EDT, you write:

<< There should be other ways as well, like jamming.  Jam the control signals
 and the robot just stand there.  Should be fairly easy.  Bombard the area
 with meson noise or is a damper to decay the meson early or overload the
 recievers front end with to much signal strength and burn out the reciever.
 You don't need to know much about the robot do do these things.  EMP bomb 
them!
 
 Charles L. >>

Thats what the internal AI is for.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:43:50 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipboard Recreation

In a message dated 99-05-06 13:20:48 EDT, you write:

<< The simplest of these devices would be the short fuse thermonuclear hand
 grenade, keyed to the characters handprint. Meaning, the character _has_
 to throw it or it doesn't work, the fuse is short enough so that those
 evil godless Commies don't throw it back at you, and it really doesn't
 matter anyway because the blast radius is roughly 5.6 times the longest
 distance that you can throw it and run away anyway... >>

Hmm, I'll take 0.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:47:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-06 13:04:58 EDT, you write:

<< Despite their fearsome reputation, Black Widows aren't particularly
 dangerous.
  >>

Well, get a spider that is deadly (if not agressive) and but a neural 
controler (the Japanise already to this to cockroaches) and then you can have 
it go bezerk.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:49:02 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-06 13:04:58 EDT, you write:

<<  <cue Steve Irwin impersonation> " 'Ere in Australia, we 'ave some
 spiders that are the deadliest, most poisonous in the world...watch me
 as I piss one off!"

xxxx
Was he the guy who did the new year's day thing on the Discovery Channel?
xxxx

 A better solution is to serve everyone fugu, just make sure that the
 master chef makes yours and the apprentice makes the bad guys...heh heh
 heh.
 
 Generally the rule is, though, never piss off the natives; a good rule
 to follow no matter where you go. >>

That's fish, right?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:47:04 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Map -> Globe

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:03:36 -0300
From: Les_Howie@keane.com
Subject: Traveller World Map -> Globe

>Has anyone out there looked at the math of projecting the
>standard traveller map (essentially a Fuller globe) on to a
>sphere (and vice-versa)?  Its been a while since I did any
>spherical trig or map projections, so any tips or pointers to
>references would be appreciated.

>That map was actually one of the main attractions for me back
>when I ran traveller.  I would cut the maps out and tape them
>into globes so the players could get a "from space" look at the
>planet they were arriving at.  Gave it a nice feel.

   I've been working on Globe->Traveller World Map problems on
and off for a while myself.  The suggestions that have already been 
given will probably be sufficient for most people, but I like the 
gory mathematical and cartographic detail of a more exact approach. 
  The easy part is dividing a sphere into 20 equilateral spherical
triangles, each corresponding to one face of an icosahedron, and calculate
the latitude and longitude of the vertices or any point 
on the edges using spherical trigonometry.
   It gets messy when you want to subdivide a spherical surface
into triangles or hexes and get fine detail for mapping purposes;
and even worse if you want to convert that detail into (or from) 
flat maps.  There are several different ways of doing it, but the
methods you can use for a plane map don't work well on the
surface of a sphere.  There, you have to base your subdivisions
on the symmetries of polyhedra.  I'm still studying that part of it 
and waiting for basic references to be checked back in to the local
university library.  If you are interested in discussing the 
details, E-mail me off list.
  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #576
**********************************

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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 7 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 577



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Two Questions
Re: Today is Camerone Day
Re: life support (was Re: Core Career Skills)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Modified Psionics for TNE
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Two Questions
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Traveller CD
Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
Re: hair spray 
bad leaders
Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam 
Re: Population modelling
Re: Fleets
Re: hair spray
Re: hair spray 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
Re: Telepresence

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:47:08 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Two Questions

On 28 April
Stephen wrote:

>One book that you might want to take a look at, if you like the
>detailed stuff, is World  Building, the one book that you need
>if you want to build a world.  Does anyone have a system for
>generating world maps and is there one in a T4 product?
- - -Stephen

The rules in TNE World Tamer's Handbook  (largely a clone of MT
World Builder's, I understand) tend to produce worlds that are
either too hot or too cold to be habitable. You need to do a lot
of fudging of stellar luminosity, orbit distance, and atmospheric
factors to come up with one that isn't well below freezing or
above 50 degrees C over most of its surface.  T4 never had world 
building rules.
   G:T First In is supposed to be an improvement, but I haven't seen either
it or a review of it, so I'll have to reserve judgment.
   I don't have the MT product; I use WTH for high-level global
design and AD&D World Builder's Guidebook for low-level detail.
  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:50:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Today is Camerone Day

In a message dated 99-05-06 12:41:58 EDT, you write:

<< The German Translator of _The Mercenary_ was a communist.  Really. A member
 of West Germany's Communist party.  When asked to translate the book into
 german, he re-wrote large portions of the book to better highlight the
 "facist" nature of the story.
 
 Jerry caught up with him at a WorldCon (Bristol, IIRC) and nearly killed
 him.  Evidently, the screaming could be heard throughout the area.
 --  >>

Okay, I'l lhave to read it.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:52:22 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: life support (was Re: Core Career Skills)

In a message dated 99-05-06 11:22:31 EDT, you write:

<< actual scientific research data, I need to check my sources and compair
 the results.  Then modify my rules additions accordingly. >>

Glad to be of help.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 01:56:30 -0500
From: "Kurtis Rodgers" <kurtis@fastlane.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

/delurking (yikes!)...

My attempt to focus more on a solution rather than elaborating the problem:

I'm working mostly from memory here, folks, but the worst abuses of drop
tanks (i.e., dropping before jump, no onboard fuel tankage, etc.) stem from
the rules specifying that all J-fuel is burned at once before jump, right?
How far back does this bit of canon go?  I honestly can't remember and my
sources are currently limited.

The 'burn & jump' rule also created a lot of other interesting bits of
latter-day TU patching (anything after CT is latter-day, btw :), such as
jump bubbles.  Correct?

What's with this dang rule, anyway?  =)  I know it violates canon, and I'm
sure this has been discussed before, but whats wrong with ruling (in a MyTU
kind of way) that J-fuel is burned continuously throughout the jump?  No
fuss, no muss.  Is there an undesirable causality chain here I'm missing?

An example draft of handwaving...

~
One of the essential functions performed by jump drives subsequent to
intitiating a jump vector is maintaining the ship's state of balance between
falling out of jumpspace (misjump) and consumption of the ship by jumpspace
itself (destruction?).  This is done through generation of a 'jump integrity
field', which encompasses the physical volume of the ship.  This jump field
protects the 'normal space' reality of the ship while maintaining the jump
vector.  Vast amounts of energy is required to sustain this field, thus the
bulk of hydrogen fuel consumed during jump is used to provide constant power
to the J-drive thoughout the jump.  Each jump rating requires the drive to
penetrate increasingly higher orders of jumpspace (i.e., level one j-space,
level two j-space, etc..), and each 'level' of jumpspace requires
ever-higher energy demands to maintain jump field integrity.
~

This bit of Brin-esque jump physics establishes the 10% rule of displacement
(as opposed to mass) and jump rating, and kills any notion of jumping
without onboard fuel.  The multi-tier jumpspace idea also sugarcoats the
whole 'one week fits all jumps' rule.  Drop tanks can still be used in lieu
refuelling, but the tanks must be carried through the first jump - externals
would count against displacement, internal collapsables would not.  So, what
problems does this blatant heresy cause, oh great masters of jump economics?
:P

Kurtis

/..splunge!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:57:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Modified Psionics for TNE

In a message dated 99-05-06 10:07:09 EDT, you write:

<< Computer Empathy 5 >>

Computer Empathy, what is it?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 03:02:03 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

> >As Survival Margin notes, there would be encoding and decoding, correction 
> >for Doppler shift, tight bean antennae trained on targets with accuracies 
> >measure in attoradians.  SM stated (reasonably IMO) that all of this was 
> >taken by the computer to simplify the tasks for crews.  Sent and received 
by 
> >teh ships computer then to the crew and Virus would tack it's own "code" 
on 
> >there.   Maybe it takes a few milliseconds (would the crew notice?) of 
lag, 
> >going both ways, but slowly tacking it's "code" on there. 
> 
>   And because it's concentrating so hard on doing all the number-crunching 
it
> physically mutates into a Cymbeline chip? And if physical configuration 
isn't

Not at all.  Why does it have to "physically mutate" or turn into a "chip" at 
all?  Just for the predator "commando chips" is that the method of 
propagation.  The main goal is to propagate, and it will operate for months 
w/o letting the crew get a hint they're not in control, trying to reproduce.  
A ship's main computer is a better host.  Bigger, more capable (and thus 
smarter, faster, etc), etc etc.  It tacks its invasive "code" so that it can 
use a more capable platform.  Remember though, it's more analogous to an 
electronic life form than a computer virus.

> an issue, then why bother with having the SDG boxes be a vector in the first
> place?

Um... According to SM, the SDG boxes were designed first as transponders.  It 
was only later that a weapon was attempted to be made of them (originally 
they came out as TL-15, but TL-16 & 17 program to modify them into Virus).

Even so, transponder chatter was only the easiest method of infection, simply 
because it was "just add water" (there was already a cymbeline chip there, w/ 
direct access to the main comp).  Comp controlled (tight beam) commo, eggs, 
then blackmail, coersion, etc, and also "commando chips."


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 03:03:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two Questions

In a message dated 99-05-07 02:54:26 EDT, you write:

<< The rules in TNE World Tamer's Handbook  (largely a clone of MT
 World Builder's, I understand) tend to produce worlds that are
 either too hot or too cold to be habitable. You need to do a lot
 of fudging of stellar luminosity, orbit distance, and atmospheric
 factors to come up with one that isn't well below freezing or
 above 50 degrees C over most of its surface.  T4 never had world 
 building rules.
    G:T First In is supposed to be an improvement, but I haven't seen either
 it or a review of it, so I'll have to reserve judgment.
    I don't have the MT product; I use WTH for high-level global
 design and AD&D World Builder's Guidebook for low-level detail. >>

Hmm, talking about something that will alow a person to determin what a map 
(the thing to trace into the plasic globe) will look like, rules for 
determing the mountain ranges and coast lines and what not, or is that what 
WTH does?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 03:35:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> 
> /delurking (yikes!)...
> 
> My attempt to focus more on a solution rather than elaborating the problem:
> 
> I'm working mostly from memory here, folks, but the worst abuses of drop
> tanks (i.e., dropping before jump, no onboard fuel tankage, etc.) stem from
> the rules specifying that all J-fuel is burned at once before jump, right?
> How far back does this bit of canon go?  I honestly can't remember and my
> sources are currently limited.

CT.
 
> The 'burn & jump' rule also created a lot of other interesting bits of
> latter-day TU patching (anything after CT is latter-day, btw :), such as
> jump bubbles.  Correct?

<shrug>
 
> What's with this dang rule, anyway?  =)  I know it violates canon, and I'm
> sure this has been discussed before, but whats wrong with ruling (in a MyTU
> kind of way) that J-fuel is burned continuously throughout the jump?  No
> fuss, no muss.  Is there an undesirable causality chain here I'm missing?

<shrug>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:42:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Traveller CD

Where can one obtain this treasure?  How much is it?

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 05:29:40 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed

OK, for the sake of numbers, we'll be using two ship designs.  These ships are 
optimised for freight hauling and carry no passengers.  Since they are under 
1000 tons, Book 2 crewing rules are in effect.  Crew is pilot, navigator, two 
engineers, and two optional gunners.  Each ship has two hardpoints, but is 
shipped without turrets or weaponry to save money.

Chump-Class Freighter

AF-4421221-000000-00000-0 TL13 144.5MCr
Cargo 240. Fuel 88.  Crew 6.  Passengers 0.

Munchkin-Class Freighter

AF-4421221-000000-00000-0 TL13 144.59MCr
Cargo 320.  Fuel 8.  Crew 6. Passengers 0.

These boats take a down payment of 28.9 MCr, with payments of 602.083 
KCr/month.  Salaries & such kick expenses on the Chump up to 653.183 KCr 
total.  The Munchkin needs to spend 90KCr/jump for its drop tanks, or 
180KCr/month assuming 2 jumps per month, for a total of 833.183KCr.

Revenue from hauling freight is 2K/ton/month, or 480KCr for the Chump, 640KCr 
for the Munchkin, assuming full loads and 2 jumps per month.  The Chump has a 
net shortfall in revenues of 173.183 KCr/month, while the debt racks up to 
193.183/month on the Munchkin.

The extra 80 tons of freight don't offset the additional expense of buying 
drop tankage to allow the Munchkin to jump.  You lose 20KCr/month using them.  
Obvious conclusion is, you better have a good broker onboard with a 1 MCr 
stake to do speculative trade to make up the shortfalls, and hope to Elvis you 
don't misjump into empty space or you're dead.  I don't see the Munchkin-Class 
as a viable character ship.  Fact is, I don't see pure drop tank ships as 
viable at all, but that's just my opinion.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 06:18:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >   Please keep in mind that AFAIK this thread is about Service Stations as
> > drop tank support centers, not B:5-ish abominations that propel their 
> victims
> > into the icy deeps of hyperspace <yawn>... ; that is, the "flexible piping
> > thread" isn't directly relevant - only the rules on drop tanks and resultant
> > economic follow-ons matter. And that's CT rules. Yes, CT Rules! <ahem> :)
> 
> Guess I am getting the particular station types confused (not that MTU will 
> ever see any of em).  :-)

<nod>
 
> > >I don't think so.  Even if the tech could be worked out (and that will 
> face a 
> > >fierce debate, don't doubt), the volume of trade going through these 
> stations 
> > >would require them to be simply massive and even more vulnerable than they 
> > >would be if they were small.
> >  
> >  a) the rules are laid out in HG2/TCS. I don't like them either. The rules
> > _"work out" the tech in the game_.
> 
> In *that* game.  They're horribly vague and inapropriate for going to the 
> level of detail required to make any assumptions.  Obviously IMO.

Assume 2 million tons of freight passing through the system per week.  You 
need 200KT of fuel to move those ships.  If you postulate that the same amount 
of tonnage leaves every single day, those ships will need 28,572 tons of fuel 
per day, or over 1000 tons of fuel per *hour*.  Thus, if you want enough fuel 
onhand for a day's business, you'll need at least 28.6K tons of fuel.

Safe jump distance from a large gas giant is about 10,000,000 klicks, per 'The 
Traveller Book' (sorry, I've misplaced my original set of LLBs).  Travel time 
from the orbit of a large gas giant at 1 g is 17.6 hours according to the 
table on Pg 54.

Assume a station of 28-30Ktons is on station at 10 million klicks.  Refueling 
it by hauling fuel out to it would be a logistical nightmare.  Assume 1 
station heading into close orbit of the gas giant to allow fuel skimmers to 
more quicky fill it up.  Assume a third station leaving close orbit enroute to 
take station at the 100 diameter jump limit.  That means 3 stations of over 
30Ktons displacement to handle the traffic.  Let's build them.

Potato-Class Fueling Station
GN-P801142-000000-00000-0 7969MCr (yeah, that's right, 7.9 BILLION)
Crew 65.  Fuel 30000.  Cargo 0.  TL13.

You need 3 of these.  Stealing an idea from Steve Hudson, I designed these 
suckers out of 50KT asteroids.  They've got 1 g accelleration & Power Plant-1. 
 It takes a 1000 ton bridge and a Computer/4 to handle one of these bloody 
things.  I didn't design in *any* hangers or small craft, but there *would* be 
several fuel skimmers around to feed the tankage.  For 1000 tons an hour of 
fueling, tankage on the skimmers would have to be on the order of 200 tons of 
payload.  For 1250 tons of fuel per hour (filling up the 30 KT of tankage in 
exactly 24 hours), you'd need 6x8, or 48 skimmers.  I seem to recall seeing 
*someplace* that skimming takes 8 hours to accomplish, thus, 6 skimmers per 
hour for 8 hours.  The fuel load is purified on the way out to the jump limit.

The bill for 3 stations is on the order of 24 BILLION credits.  The skimmers, 
I dunno; it's 6 AM & I haven't bothered designing them yet.
 
> >  b) Umm, multiple stations? Different companies competing for market share?
> > Nah, never happen...
> 
> Ok.  4 stations that can each handle still up to millinos of Dts per week?  
> 8?  How many?  Millions of DTs per week means some pretty big stations for 
> even hundreds of stations.

3 50KT stations could handle 2 million tons per week.  Just add more fuel 
skimmers and stations to add capacity for throughput.  Are we having fun yet?

> >  c) as for "you don't think so", is that an statement based on an economic
> > analysis, a military analysis, or some other sort of opinion?
> 
> Err... based on the size of the things these'll have to be for anything on a 
> "main" route.  Know what I mean, jelly bean?  I'm leaving economics out of it 
> for now (that's a whole different animal that's been rampaging around for 
> quite a bit now <g>).  It definately ties in militarily... it's gotta be 
> fixed (at least as far as starship combat goes) when you get to that size.

See my above figures.  <grin>
 
> > >Can you make them big enough to take hundreds of thousands, if not 
> millions, 
> > >of dtons of shipping each *week*, as Far Trade has worlds on the "Main 
> > >Routes" doing?  That has got to be a GIGANTIC station.  100 diamters from 
> > >that?  ;-)
> > 
> >   s'OK, we'll make it a disc :)  Ornamental elephants optional...
> > But extra tankage (not shuttles, skimmers, etc., though) costs only MCr 0.72
> > per 800 D-tons of L-Hyd! And I suspect that cheaper methods (also of dubious
> > ethicality, perhaps) may be found. And needless to say, multiple stations
> > ( which are after all strictly needed only as maintenance/admin platforms 
> for
> > the drop tank delivery/handling/refilling industry) are possible too.
> 
> Hmm... Seeing the design you sent me (and translating them to english as much 
> as possible... i dont' read HG), that's a pretty small scale thing.  You say 
> it's scalable up, and it should be, but up the sizes we're talking bout?  A 
> BTN 11 route (midway on the "main" routes) has 500,000 to 1,000,000 Dtons 
> each week going through, according to Far Trader.  Let's say 750,000.  
> 107,143 Dtons each day.  4464 an hour, 24 hours a day w/o stop (which isn't 
> likely IMO).  What's reasonable to assume here?  

3 50KT rocks.  24 billion credits thereabouts.
 
> Probably not constant fuel shuttles (nor even merchant ships), but 2 or 3 
> "deliveries" of fuel a day?  What do you think?  I'm not going to assume too 
> much... you're the one making the case for these beasties aren't you? ;-)  

Steve is.  I'm arguing against.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 06:22:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

> > > Let's see rogue Amway operatives take on P&G with rumors in *that*
> > > environment...
> >
> > At least, until they run into some Mary Kay commandos...
> 
> Umm, before you laugh too much at that, I have some personal connections
> to former MK executives.  (No I'm not upset by the MK Commandos
> reference).  MK itself is owned by a company, at least in very large part,
> that owns lots of other companies around the globe.  One in particular
> makes some of the highest quality body armor available (the name
> escapes me but its NYSE traded company, IIRC).  The other company
> of interest provides elite 'security' services outside of the US to the US
> government.  By forming local companies in Country X, they are able
> to have resources, equipments, and legal permission to do things that
> US government representatives cannot do outside of US extraterritorial
> areas.  Combined with robotic technology at some of the Mary Kay
> storage and manufacturing facilities (really cool stuff, btw), another company
> that owns and charters jets and has its own airfields in some places,
> and the muffin-making company, you have the potential for a
> Mary Kay Global Strike Force.

Heheh.  Actually, I stole the 'Mary Kay Commandos' from Berke Breathed's 
'Bloom County', a comic strip that's sorely missed, IMNSFBHO.  And when I was 
doing fundraising for a few years, one of our contributers described herself 
as a Mary Kay Commando, complete with pink Caddy.  Just goes to show that 
truth is stranger than fiction.

Of course, I *still* maintain that I'm stranger than truth...
 
> I'm not making any of this up.  Except that there is no real Strike
> Force.  So far as you know.  No comment on MK does business
> in Russia.  ;-)

So they do live testing in the Gulag?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 06:23:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: hair spray 

> In a message dated 99-05-07 00:44:58 EDT, you write:
> 
> << At the risk of getting flamed badly, try Poland under Wolensa or 
> Yugoslavia 
>  under Milosovech. >>
> 
> Thats what I was going for, any ideas of Milosovech's stats in T4?

Not I.  All I have around here is a *lotta* CT stuff & some MT stuff.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 06:37:00 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: bad leaders

Stephen writes:
>Speaking of high Admin does anyone have good ideas for a REALY bad leader but 
>got elected (or apointed) becouse of high soc or leadership?

Kings get their jobs due to high soc.  History has many examples of bad kings.



- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"The Clintonites, like pod people from a "Star Trek" adventure, have peeled 
off the thin layer of centrist rhetoric that they wore for the presidential 
campaign. We now learn that they are people genetically bred to inhabit the 
public sector. Their oxygen source is the moisture of taxes, which are
remitted 
by the aliens in the private sector." -- Wall Street Journal February 19, 1993
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:12:50 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam 

At 21:19 06/05/1999 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>> >Do the creators Familie Spofulam keep reins on the
>> >family, or are we free to create a new member?
>> 
>> I think probationary membership would be the way to go. It's really
>> Roderick's decision, but he's incommunicado, practicing law somewhere in
>> Canada ... 
>
><sigh>  And Roderick showed *SO* much promise...

It's a shame about Canada as well...

Phil
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 21:16:43 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Population modelling

Stephen,

>Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:50:41 EDT
>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Populashion Modeling
>
>Hi,
>does anyone know a good system for modeling the populashion of a small
group, 
>detailed enuff so that you could come back in ten years and you would see
the 
>grow of the populashion as indivuels and how the modife the populashion, 
>carring capacity in importaned.
>- -Stephen

<Spelling mistakes unforgiveable in the days of spell-chequers>  8-P

IIRC, there needs to be a beginning population of 400 adults, split evenly
male/female and assuming polygamy, for a population to grow without a raft
of genetic defects rearing their ugly heads.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 21:16:55 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fleets

Evenin',

On 4/5/99, Stephen spoke and sayeth :

>Maybe that is why the do have them, so that the Impies can move them?
>- -Stephen

Just a wee question, whereabouts does it say (if anywhere) that the 3I can
utilise the military resources of member worlds in order to carry out a
military venture ?  If they can do so, how far can they go ?  That is, can
they say to a member "Ah, look, we'll just borrow a few thousand tons of
shipping and a corps or two of armor and have them all back to you in, say,
three months.  OK ?"

One would assume that they would, 'for the good of the Imperium', but how
much of a systems' military resources can the 3I requisition to conduct war ?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 04:21:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: hair spray

In mail you write:

>  ps. For those who haven't figured it out by this point, rhododendron
>  flowers contain something that makes honey made from their nectar
>  *poisonous* to humans. And "amanita" refers to the Amanita ????
>  mushroom. Tasty, and a *nasty* way to die.  >>
>
> We are not nice people, are we?  What about spiders (black widows), ect?
> -Stephen

There's another filk song titled "Black Widows in the Privy". :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:28:57 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: hair spray 

At 00:37 07/05/1999 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>> In a message dated 99-05-06 06:16:25 EDT, you write:
>> 
>> << Compared to most of the characters in our equivalent of the Dorsai, the
>>  Lustre Family, he was not at all combat-oriented, but he kept gettting
into
>>  places where he had to pretend to be a "real" soldier, because, well he
was
>>  one of the Lustre mercenaries, wasn't he ?
>>  
>>  But, it's amazing what one can do with a high Admin skill... >>
>> 
>> Speaking of high Admin does anyone have good ideas for a REALY bad
leader but 
>> got elected (or apointed) becouse of high soc or leadership?
>
>At the risk of getting flamed badly, try Poland under Wolensa or Yugoslavia 
>under Milosovech.

Oliver Cromwell

Nero

Caligula <sp?>


Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 04:32:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-05 22:28:24 EDT, you write:
>
> << >> ...dog...
>  >> 'Until you pee on it you don't own it'
>  >> 
>  >Which explains my urge to urinate during a cross-border patrol into Iraq
>  >in 1991, about a week before the ground offensive began.  I was just
>  >marking my future territory....
>  
>  That reminds me... is it true that when a Vargr crew first lands on
>  a new, unclaimed planet, they mark the territory for their particular
>  Vargr government by...
>  
>  ... never mind.
>   >>
>
> Could make an interesting campain detail, if rather crude.
> -Stephen

Is it true that this is how the Vargr discovered the Electric Shrub on
Corvina 6? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:19:02 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

At 02:16 PM 5/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>> "Thanks for your hard work, Dr. Kivarish, but in order
>>> to ensure the security of this wonderful system, we
>>> have to complete just one more procedure..." (ZAP!)
>
>
>Ouch.  Awful hard to make tenure, eh?
>
>> There should be other ways as well, like jamming.  Jam
>> the control signals and the robot just stand there.  
>> Should be fairly easy.  Bombard the area with meson 
>> noise or is a damper to decay the meson early or overload
>> the recievers front end with to much signal strength and 
>> burn out the reciever. You don't need to know much about 
>> the robot do do these things.  EMP bomb them!
>
>Dumping that level of meson energy into the neighborhood 
>isn't healthy for anything, let along electronics. As to 
>EMP bombs, any EM that can penetrate the hardening of the
>suit will be sufficent to fry the battle dress regardless
>of whether it is tele-operated or not.  So, unto itself,
>EMP isn't a reason not to use telepresense.

Not true, commo is far more sensitive to EMP than hardened control
circuitry.  You can not really harden commo in the same way you can closed
loop control systems.  Commo must have some input point for outside signals.
That point is the week point.  You can narrow the range of energy that can
come through that input point but even that circuitry has to be able to
handle the EMP surge.  If you cook the commo unit a tele controled suit will
loose control and become enert even if the servo systems are undamaged.  By
definition a suit with an open comm unit is more open to EMP.  The commo
curcuit is a break in the faraday cage that an EMP can enter.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #577
**********************************

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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 7 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 578



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Telepresence
Re: bad leaders
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam
Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: hair spray
Re: Re: help unsubscribe - handled
Re: solid hydrogen fuel
Re: Solid Hydrogen Fuel
Incompetants in Power
Re: Orbital Fire Support
Re:Lasers
Re: lasers
Re: Telepresence
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks)
Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks)
F5 1kt JumpExpressCo Fast Liner

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:05:52 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

Brannon W. Boren wrote:

>Yes, I must agree. Why, in order to have any chance of breaking a complex
>cypher system, one would practically need to be able to read the mind of
>the guy who designed it, or someone who knows the specs of the device, or
>one of the guys who works on the code updates, or any one of a lot of
>people who'd have a good working knowledge of it. And of course there are
>no enemies of the Imperium with the capability to read minds, right?  ;)

A fundamental rule of cryptography is that you assume that the enemy
knows the algorithm behind your cypher. Trying to claim a `strong'
cryptosystem through obscurity of the algorithm will get you laughed at.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:16:03 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: bad leaders

The nemesis for the characters in my old campaign was developed from an NPC 
who wound up with Leader skill of 6 under MT rules. This combined with high 
physical stats, SOC 10, ED 8, and INT of "ta-da" 3.  Drako, scion of an old 
established family on Saurus/Vilis could always be counted on to inspire 
those around him with his rugged good looks, charisma, and self assurance.  
He was very successful in his inherited position as a major 
landholder/rancher on a backwater agricultural world. Prior to the 5FW, he 
rose to local prominance, gaining in prestige for his undying devotion to 
Swordic principles and his ability to focus on the simple problems of ranch 
life.  Unfortunately for the good citizens of Saurus, virtually every choice 
that he had to make during the war (IMTU a vicious civil war on Saurus) wound 
up causing more misery and chaos for them.  Every time he had a key military, 
political, or economic decision to make, I'd roll for him applying his 
skills.  The results were a string of outstanding successes wherever Leader 
skill was appropriate, combined with a parade of blunders where other 
critical skills were called for.  The key was that he was just so effective 
at inspiring those around him.  The more things went bad as a result of his 
choices, the better he did at leading his them to believe that with just a 
little more of the same, things would turn around.  

History is full of Drakos,  persuasive leaders who are adept at making 
foolish, rash decisions, but nevertheless retain the loyal worship of their 
followers.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 14:20:09 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

At 06:18 07/05/1999 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
wrote:
<snip>
>Assume 2 million tons of freight passing through the system per week.  You 
>need 200KT of fuel to move those ships.  If you postulate that the same
amount 
>of tonnage leaves every single day, those ships will need 28,572 tons of
fuel 
>per day, or over 1000 tons of fuel per *hour*.  Thus, if you want enough
fuel 
>onhand for a day's business, you'll need at least 28.6K tons of fuel.

Pseudo-reality check <grin>

200KT/week = 10MT/year 

           * 500Cr/ton for refined fuel

           = 5,000MCr/year

I think that ought to be able to pay for a few fueling stations.

Please adjust the figures for any error in my memory.

Before people start saying:

"there's *too much* trade in system X for fuelling stations to be viable"

Would they first consider how all the merchants were planning to refuel
without the fuelling stations. Personally, I reckon the large trade volumes
are done by big unstreamlined freighters operating out of the highport.

If this is true, someone has to get the fuel to the highport,
someone has to take the goods down to the planet.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 13:25:02 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 03:28 PM 5/6/99 EDT, you wrote:
>> >What bout tight beam commo?  Anything that requires an enormous amount of 
>> >computing ability worked in real tight.  The exact tech of the computers 
>is 
>> >certainly vague, though look at their general capabilities.  If you buy 
>the 
>> >SoM, Virus should be more than believable.  I don't think anyone proposes 
>an 
>> >"ordinary" power cable, though.  
>> 
>>   How does "tight beam commo" differ from a radio broadcast or a CD-ROM dl
>
>As Survival Margin notes, there would be encoding and decoding, correction 
>for Doppler shift, tight bean antennae trained on targets with accuracies 
>measure in attoradians.  SM stated (reasonably IMO) that all of this was 
>taken by the computer to simplify the tasks for crews.  Sent and received by 
>teh ships computer then to the crew and Virus would tack it's own "code" on 
>there.   Maybe it takes a few milliseconds (would the crew notice?) of lag, 
>going both ways, but slowly tacking it's "code" on there. 
>

Problems here!

1) How does the recieving system know how to unpack and reasemble the code?  

2)It it is in a standard format where is the anti virus software?  

3) Who tells the recieving unit that the assembled code is an executable?

4) What sane person would let unknown persons remote load a progam and
remote ececute it on their ships main computer?

5) Are there no computer security people in the traveller universe?

6) No hackers either?

7) No sysops that can set the operations perameter that says "Disable remote
ececution"?

8) Or set the "Run only from ROM disks" parameter?

9) The only way the the virus could reconfigure the computers circuitry is
if the circuitry was designed to be reconfigured during operation, like a
neural network.  A hard wired silicon system sealed inside it's chips would
be invunerable to this form of attack as it's pathways could not be changed.
The virus would have to gain direct physical contact with the silicon AND
have the necessary chemicals present in the atmosphere to re etch the
silicon.  This is stated explicitly in the adventure that introduced the
inteligent chips.

10) FIBs would be immune as well as their composition is as alien to the
chips as is our human biology.

11) On a military ship the crew would shitch to the FIB system when the main
system went flakey.  Isolating the virus.  End of problem.  A ship designed
to fight after recieving damage would have to have enough cut outs,
bypasses, and work arrounds to disable any faulty system including the main
computer.  One designed to fight in a nuclear enviroment would have heavy
shielded hard wired backups to all critical systems.  These would also be
immune to the virus as they would have to be EM shielded and EM is the
method of infection for the virus.

I personally love the idea of the virus.  It's a great villain.  It can
still be very deadly even with the logical limitaions that is should have.
It is smart and can be patient.  It can be even worse than discribed if
played that way even with the limitaions it suffers from.  I've always
though the virus got a bum rap.  If properly thought out it could have been
the boogyman of traveller.  Instead of the grab control of everything and
kill story that was presented it could have been the 'ghost in the machine'
that first infiltrated nearly everything before reaking havok.  This way it
could have taken secret control of the automated factories and wrote it's
code into systems as they were being built.  It would have been simplicity
itself to set a date say 5 years after it's first release for D-day.  The
sudden attack everywhere at teh same time would have been far more effective
than what happened in cannon and more believeable as well.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 07:43:13 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam

>>> >Do the creators Familie Spofulam keep reins on the
>>> >family, or are we free to create a new member?
>>> 
>>> I think probationary membership would be the way to go. It's really
>>> Roderick's decision, but he's incommunicado, practicing law somewhere in
>>> Canada ... 
>>
>><sigh>  And Roderick showed *SO* much promise...
>
>It's a shame about Canada as well...

As I'm in Canada myself, should I be concerned? Or at least vigilant?
Batten down the hatches? Get the FGMP-15 charged and ready?


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 07:50:14 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Stupid Traveller Tricks

Recent discussions of the FGMP has reminded me of something particularly...
stupid... that a player-character did in a Traveller campaign I ran several
years ago. And I thought this would make a good thread / discussion topic:
really dumb things done by players in Traveller (or other games, for that
matter.)

The setup: the characters are trying to rescue a kidnap victim on some
planet somewhere, and have traced the kidnappers to a remote cabin in
a large forest. One of the PCs had gotten a full suit of battle dress
as a mustering-out benefit, and had a plasma gun as an available weapon.
A few of the PCs stormed the front of the cabin while a couple of the 
others spirited the young victim away out the back. A firefight breaks
out (of course!) -- and the PC with the plasma gun fires it inside the
cabin. Since the cabin is a small, enclosed space, there was a bit of
backblast from the plasma as it was partially contained by the cabin
itself, enough to singe the PCs who were in the cabin with the one 
carrying the plasma gun. The shot also incinerated all of the bad guys,
effectively disintegrated the back half of the cabin... and set off a
major forest fire.

If any of you have any similar anecdotes, of less-than-intelligent
things done by players, post 'em here!

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 06:58:46 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: hair spray

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-06 13:04:58 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<  <cue Steve Irwin impersonation> " 'Ere in Australia, we 'ave some
>  spiders that are the deadliest, most poisonous in the world...watch me
>  as I piss one off!"
> 
> xxxx
> Was he the guy who did the new year's day thing on the Discovery Channel?
> xxxx

Yep, and he has a regular series on Animal Planet called "Crocodile Hunter",
and ISTR he made a 'guest appearance' on "South Park" (damn...wish I'd seen
that episode!)


>  A better solution is to serve everyone fugu, just make sure that the
>  master chef makes yours and the apprentice makes the bad guys...heh heh
>  heh.
> 
>  Generally the rule is, though, never piss off the natives; a good rule
>  to follow no matter where you go. >>
> 
> That's fish, right?

Correct. It is a species of pufferfish, which, when prepared correctly, is
allegedly delicious, and prepared _in_correctly loaded with tetrodotoxin,
(IIRC) which paralyzes you. Long time staple gimmick of murder mysteries.

The mushrooms are _Amanita phalloides_, BTW, just popped into my head. A
favorite of certain Borgias during the Rennaisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:07:28 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Re: help unsubscribe - handled

On Thu, 06 May 1999 16:36:16 -0700,
Suz Dollar informed us:
>
>FYI, I have privately emailled the inquiring party directions for
>unsubscribing.  Sorry to waste the bandwith with this message, but
>hopefully this will deter flames and multiple responses.
>
>Suz

Suz,

Thank you for doing so.

If I may be so bold, you are truly a Lady.

(respectful bow)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:12:30 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: solid hydrogen fuel

>> One thing that would help with this, and with the Interminable Drop
> >Tank Debate, would be to make jump performance and fuel requirements
> >based on mass rather than volume...neatly removing most of the
> >advantages of drop tanks.
>Hardly. The advantage of drop tanks depends on you being able to "use"
>the fuel *before* jump, for the most part. Even if what you are doing
>is feeding your *internal* Jump tankage to the J-drive, and refilling
>the internal tankage from the drop tanks.

Ah, but if jump performance depends on mass at the moment of entry to jump -
which it must, for drop tanks to work - then all ships have the same
advantage,
with drop tanks or internal fuel, because they're not taking their (burned)
fuel
into jump with them. Drop tank ships win a little more because of the mass
of the empty tanks, but that's small.

The downside of the "jump depends on mass" variant is that because
hydrogen masses so little, you could build ships with huge amounts of fuel
tankage that are capable of 2xjump-6, unless the fuel consumption was
carefully tweaked (even if fuel mass is counted before its burned...)

Making jump fuel depend on mass would also simplify ship design, in that
one could design a ship to a specific target mass rather than target volume.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 07:27:26 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Solid Hydrogen Fuel

>> More interesting for Traveller tech would be liquid metallic hydrogen
>> - that can have extremely large densities, but requires tremendous
>> pressures, not unimaginable to technology that can make superdense
>> alloys.
>Still, isn't metallic hydrogen only about .1 g/cc? That's an *awful*
>lot of trouble for something that's only 30% denser.

I spoke to Bill Nellis at LLNL, the only person in the world who's actually
made
metallic hydrogen; he tells me it can occupy a whole range of densities -
they've
gotten as high as 0.6 g/cm3. Of course, that requires pressures formed in
the impact of a 7 km/s projectile, and temperatures in the thousands of K...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:25:29 +1000
From: "ab" <ab@rossmack.com>
Subject: Incompetants in Power

> Speaking of high Admin does anyone have good ideas for a REALY bad leader but
> got elected (or apointed) becouse of high soc or leadership?

I can't remember his name, but if I recall correctly the British Officer in charge of the Allied landing at Gallipoli (a thorough
debacle) was appointed on account of being from "a good family, don't you know."

Admiral Santanocheev would seem to fit the bill from traveller history (qv The Spinward Marches Campaign).

- -AB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 07:34:54 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Orbital Fire Support

>When it comes to laser fire from orbit, I would think a canny defender
>would wait for overcast conditions to launch counter offensives.  GURPS
>Vehicles has several types of anti-laser aerosols listed, any one of which
>could seriously degrade the effectiveness of orbital fire support.
Also - in Traveller, at least, where lasers are better defined - you can argue
that lasers fired in an atmosphere have to have "streched" pulses (to avoid
having too high a peak power and ionizing the atmosphere.) This could
reduce penetration - I would play with all TNE/FFS2 lasers having a
penetration of 1 in atmospheres.

In both cases (GURPS anti-laser aerosols, and TNE reduced PEN) this
would help explain why plasma weapons are popular for tanks and
orbital fire support...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 07:37:30 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re:Lasers

>> The other question is how far can a non-TNE "spotlight shaped" laser
>>(i.e.,
>> the stubby-barrelled sort in Striker) reach effectively without either grav
> >focussing or a much wider aperture?
>Using what rules?  IIRC, 3G3 uses "tubes" though i don't remember the
>technobabble is attributed to it.  Not very effective at all w/ FF&S.  How
>does G:V treat lasers?
In the Real World (which is what I think the question was about), a decent-
aperture laser can have ranges in the hundreds of km - maybe thousands
if its working in the extreme ultraviolet (which of course doesn't work for
orbital bombardment much of the time.)

G:V laser rules are fairly handwaved/abstract.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 07:40:56 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: lasers

>>>  What will that mean for tank (or lighter AFV) Xasers?
>>I believe that in Star Mercs the listed xaser ranges are in-atmosphere.
>>The VE2 convention is to make the calculations for in-atmosphere stuff, and
>>then multiply by 50 (or whatever, based on weapon type) for space.  It's
>>only in GT that they list the space range in miles (usually it's atmosphere
>>range in yards).

Note that in the Real World, the Earth's atmosphere is sufficiently opaque
to x-rays that they should pretty much have zero effective range...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:51:41 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

Charles Prevatte writes:
>
> Not true, commo is far more sensitive to EMP than hardened
> control circuitry.  You can not really harden commo in the
> same way you can closed loop control systems.  Commo must
> have some input point for outside signals.  That point is
> the week point.  You can narrow the range of energy that can
> come through that input point but even that circuitry has to
> be able to handle the EMP surge.  If you cook the commo unit
> a tele controled suit will loose control and become enert
> even if the servo systems are undamaged.  By definition a
> suit with an open comm unit is more open to EMP.  The commo
> curcuit is a break in the faraday cage that an EMP can enter.


That would fry the backup satellite comm system for sure.
Fortunately, the meson comm rig does not need an external
antenna and can enjoy the full protection of the suit.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 11:08:44 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

Scene: Large, well-defended warehouse on a zero-law level world.  Although
the warehouse was heavily armored, the admin offices attached were not.

"So what happens if we fill our [105 ton] hold with water and dump it on
the building."

The players finally decide that what they really need to do is hire a firm
to *build a wall* around the warehouse to contain all the water.  According
to one players calculation the water should fill the area inside the wall
to a depth of 2-3 meters.

I, of course, do my own calculation and come to a somewhat different
conclusion.

In the end the wall was built at considerable expense (instant foam-crete,
the Galaxy's fastest building material!) the water was dumped (doing
considerable damage to the adminstrative offices, and none at all to the
warehouse) and the water sat in the very large walled area...at a depth of
6cm.

In the end (due to a distinct lack of "homework") it turned out the two
type "T" meson guns weren't in the warehouse at all (this should give some
people an idea of what adventure it was).  That being the obvious place.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 08:17:36 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
...
>>it physically mutates into a Cymbeline chip? And if physical configuration 
...
>Not at all.  Why does it have to "physically mutate" or turn into a "chip" at 
...

  Isn't that how they spread? It certainly was for their Cymbeline ancestors -
the Virus era units have no physical irregulariites from the non-infected comp
systems that they parasatize?

...
>smarter, faster, etc), etc etc.  It tacks its invasive "code" so that it can 
>use a more capable platform.  Remember though, it's more analogous to an 
>electronic life form than a computer virus.

  So Virus doesn't have a physical component IYTU? Doesn't that render it
vulnerable to techniques that TNE specifies somehow don't work?

...
>Um... According to SM, the SDG boxes were designed first as transponders.  It 
>was only later that a weapon was attempted to be made of them (originally 
>they came out as TL-15, but TL-16 & 17 program to modify them into Virus).

  And they were apparently working on proto-Virus all along, and it never
occurred to them that such transponders could be used as Trojan Horses? And
yet it somehow worked out that they were fully backwards compatible?

>Even so, transponder chatter was only the easiest method of infection, simply 
>because it was "just add water" (there was already a cymbeline chip there, w/ 
>direct access to the main comp).  Comp controlled (tight beam) commo, eggs, 
>then blackmail, coersion, etc, and also "commando chips."

  Lucans people ever intended it to spread autonomously via "commando chips"?!
Were they completely insane (note: "completely" - partial is assumed after
working for the Boy-Wonder-Emperor - and surviving! - for a few years)? Do
you mean blackmail & coercion by Vampires or Lucans agents?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 08:28:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: "Kurtis Rodgers" <kurtis@fastlane.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
...
>What's with this dang rule, anyway?  =)  I know it violates canon, and I'm
>sure this has been discussed before, but whats wrong with ruling (in a MyTU
>kind of way) that J-fuel is burned continuously throughout the jump?  No
>fuss, no muss.  Is there an undesirable causality chain here I'm missing?

  It solves the drop tank "problem"; some people may see this as being wrong.
OTOH, at this point I conclude that it would be something like the best idea.

...
>problems does this blatant heresy cause, oh great masters of jump economics?

  Very little (AFAIK) except that the "J-fuel is burned for power" school
returns
us with a vengeance to the "why are J-drives better power supplies than power
plants, and why do they require huge power plant inputs to operate" problem.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 08:54:25 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed
...
>These boats take a down payment of 28.9 MCr, with payments of 602.083 
>KCr/month.  Salaries & such kick expenses on the Chump up to 653.183 KCr 
>total.  The Munchkin needs to spend 90KCr/jump for its drop tanks, or 
>180KCr/month assuming 2 jumps per month, for a total of 833.183KCr.

  Please note that per TCS, p.14, the tanks themselves only cost KCr 80
per set; the extra KCr 10 in HG2 appears to be brackets on the ship.

...
>Revenue from hauling freight is 2K/ton/month, or 480KCr for the Chump, 640KCr 
>for the Munchkin, assuming full loads and 2 jumps per month.  The Chump has a 
>net shortfall in revenues of 173.183 KCr/month, while the debt racks up to 
>193.183/month on the Munchkin.

  If both ships are guaranteed to lose money then is their "efficiency"
really important? With the basic CT KCr 1.0 ton/jump (or x2 month?) these
ships don't
prosper; did you run the numbers for 30-35 trips/year, and/or partial carriage
of passengers. The price listed in undiscounted? As the stats listed above
indicate maximum revenue of 6% of unit price something is clearly wrong. Are
you assuming a modest premium for faster than J1 delivery?

  As indicated previously, disparities between vessel types are much more
pronounced at higher J#'s.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 09:26:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks)

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>Assume a station of 28-30Ktons is on station at 10 million klicks.  Refueling 
>it by hauling fuel out to it would be a logistical nightmare.  Assume 1 

  Even though all the components mentioned are armoured generously, you might
want to move a bit further out if GG orbital trash is an issue. FWIW, we will
likely want some smaller (1Kt?) specialized stations in closer; these will
handle the specialized little tugs that will boost up spare fuel rocks to begin
their cold, lonely journey to their new home. Assume that a 1Kt fuel-rock will
take 15 days to get to 15-20 gigameters, so the added cost per Dt/L-Hyd will
be over Cr 4, or possibly as low as 2.0-2.5; this should be cheaper than tugs.

...
>Potato-Class Fueling Station
>GN-P801142-000000-00000-0 7969MCr (yeah, that's right, 7.9 BILLION)
>Crew 65.  Fuel 30000.  Cargo 0.  TL13.
>
>You need 3 of these.  Stealing an idea from Steve Hudson, I designed these 
>suckers out of 50KT asteroids.  They've got 1 g accelleration & Power Plant-1. 

  It's a shame that you don't play TCS for cash :)  Please keep in mind that a
large portion of these "ships" cost is their power plant - you should lose 20%
of their cost if you use a TL F design. You also lose <20% off the system if you
use multiples of a smaller design and get the series discount. I assume the 1G
drive is also to drive up price; "fix" all the above and cost is under BCr 3.5
per 50 Kt of stations.

  Oh, and all you really need is a smaller station full of maintenance/support/
admin people, and then the free floating tanks parked nearby MCr 0.9 Kt/L-Hyd.
Say a 20 Kt station, for a total cost (100 Kt/L-Hyd) of BCr 1.5 before skimmers.

... 
>*someplace* that skimming takes 8 hours to accomplish, thus, 6 skimmers per 
>hour for 8 hours.  The fuel load is purified on the way out to the jump limit.

  The little tank handlers - wherever based - will probably operate ~160 hours
a week as expensive capital items, so we also need five crew per flitter - one
maintenance guy and four small craft handlers (assumes 40 hours/week max.). A
purifier could be installed either at the GG or at the tanker platform - it does
depend on the demand for volatiles, as there should be a lot of by-products.

...
>> >   s'OK, we'll make it a disc :)  Ornamental elephants optional
...
>3 50KT rocks.  24 billion credits thereabouts.

  As stated above, the cost is quite substantially lower if building of brick.
Possibly as high as BCr 3.0 before auxiliary craft. The biggest cost will be
the actual GG fuel skimmers; how did the hydrocarbon skimmers (?) from A:V
work out cost-wise?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:51:30 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks)

Why not position the station over a high hydrographic percentage world
instead of a gas giant?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 10:30:28 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: F5 1kt JumpExpressCo Fast Liner

 Here's a vaguely economical J-5 express liner: When Too Fast Is Never
Enough! (tm)

                XR-A431152-050000-85000-0       MCr 452.4      1000 tons
                  batts.    1     11                             TL=F
                                                                Crew=10
        Cargo=196. Passengers=17. LHyd=550. EP=50. Agility=1. Low=0.

  Presumably such a ship is an evolution of the E-5 models that would've been
prevalent well into the 1000's; by the latter half of the century these vessels
would be wearing out and replaced, mostly by more efficient F-5's but also by
the more capable (if exorbitantly costly) F-6's. MCr 565.5 standard.
 
  The ship carries three gunners for its rather excessive armaments load; one
each offensive, defensive, and dual-purpose battery directed by a Model/5 comp.
If high passengers are to be carried one cabin can be split to provide quarters
for two stewards; all passenger quarters are allocated at 4 Dt each.

  Mortgage payments run MCr 22.62/year for the type, and a load of express
cargo and high passengers at "normal" rates is MCr 12.46/year; thus, the
premium for J5 services must be on the order of +100%.

  If used, a drop tank version would carry up to 500 additional tons. At an
increased annual cost of MCr 17.5 (~+75%, ~MCr 42/pa total) the sellable
capacity now increases to 760 Dt (increase of 192%), allowing for annual
revenue of (10xHi, 10xMid, 632Dt) of MCr 32.2 base, or a needed premium of
30% - a reduction in J5 service costs of over a third!

 For the sake of dignity, no munchkinized welded-droptank version is listed.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #578
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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 7 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 579



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Telepresence
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Disposal of .....
Re: Population Modelling
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Modified Psionics for TNE
High Guard 2nd Errata question.
Niven's Known Space species
correction: F5 1kt JumpExpressCo Fast Liner
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed
Re: Economics of Service Stations 
F6 1kt JumpExpressCo Express Liner
RE: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Fun with nukes
Re: Population modelling
Re: Fun with nukes
Express shipping costs recap

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 13:30:28 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

At 12:19 PM 5/7/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Not true, commo is far more sensitive to EMP than hardened control
>circuitry.  You can not really harden commo in the same way you can closed
>loop control systems.  Commo must have some input point for outside signals.
>That point is the week point.  You can narrow the range of energy that can
>come through that input point but even that circuitry has to be able to
>handle the EMP surge.  If you cook the commo unit a tele controled suit will
>loose control and become enert even if the servo systems are undamaged.  By
>definition a suit with an open comm unit is more open to EMP.  The commo
>curcuit is a break in the faraday cage that an EMP can enter.

(It's been a while since I've done radioelectronics, so I don't remember if
this idea will actually work...)
What about a time-reset circuit-breaker, right on the antenna wire?  Surely
by TTL15 you can have a circuit breaker that will trip before the rest of
the system is damaged, and then reset itself, say, 30sec later. (or even
2sec.  AFAIK an EMP is close to being instantaneous...)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:32:39 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:41:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

>><< You've also overlooked the Neural Activity Sensor from one of >>the 
>>Scout books. It ought to be pretty revealing.
>>
>>Really?  How much detail do you get?
>
>I'm not sure. But I *am* sure that mammalian versus reptilian brain
>patterns will be *easy* to diferentiate. The structure of a reptile
>brain is *very* different from that of mammals. Not only do they lack
>the frontal lobes (so do most mammals), they lack the entire cerebrum
>IIRC (or is it cerebellum?)
>
>Intelligent reptiles would have to evolve something to fill in the
>"gap", but odds are against it being much like the cererum. And thus,
>they'll have *very* different readings.

Are you assuming that the visitors are part of the family Reptilia that 
evolved on earth? I dont see that (but you never know with grandfather) :)

The basic idea is Ok nevertheless as the visitors brain patterns probably 
doesnt resemble any mayor or minor human race.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"Absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant that it was 
impossible to find whatever it you were looking for, which is the purpose if 
computers --- Terry Pratchett


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:32:49 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Disposal of .....

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:10:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: hair spray

>Well, "bone chips" (usually "bone *meal*") are a normal additive to
>compost. And in a properly run composting setup, it'd be hell finding
>them, plus, they'd tend to get "eaten" buy the micro-organisms you >are 
>trying to encourage.
>
>That's why I specified "composting". We have a *huge* composting >center 
>for yard debris and the like here.
>
>But teeth *are* a problem. One of the harder things to get rid of. Leonard 
>Erickson

No, just put them in glass of Coca-Cola overnight. That dissolves them 
nicely (I think that it is the phosphoric acid that does it). Itried this 
many years ago and it worked.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"Absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant that it was 
impossible to find whatever it you were looking for, which is the purpose if 
computers --- Terry Pratchett


______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:33:16 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Population Modelling

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:44:07 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Population Modelling

>>does anyone know a good system for modelling the population of a >>small 
>>group, detailed enough so that you could come back in ten >>years and you 
>>would see the grow of the population as individuals >>and how the modify 
>>the population, carrying capacity in importaned.
>
>Well, populations of things like bacteria in an unlimited growth >medium 
>can be modelled by an exponential function. Anything more >complex than 
>that depends highly on external conditions.

Or you coulf use more complex exponential functions. The problems with all 
mathematical solutions (usually differential equations) are that factors 
like the birth rate, sustainable population etc varies over time in RL(TM). 
Another feature of RL(TM) is that differential equations of this type seldom 
can be solved (y(t) = a(t)y(t) + b(t)y(t)^2).

>A good system for modelling the population of a small group of
>technologically advanced sophonts in a starfaring civilization is >just to 
>pick whatever population suits the dramatic need.

AKA the good ol' Handy breeze.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"Absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant that it was 
impossible to find whatever it you were looking for, which is the purpose if 
computers --- Terry Pratchett


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 13:33:50 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 01:25 PM 5/7/99 +0000, you wrote:
>the boogyman of traveller.  Instead of the grab control of everything and
>kill story that was presented it could have been the 'ghost in the machine'
>that first infiltrated nearly everything before reaking havok.  This way it
>could have taken secret control of the automated factories and wrote it's
>code into systems as they were being built.  It would have been simplicity
>itself to set a date say 5 years after it's first release for D-day.  The

For an (extremely silly) treatment of this idea, see Alan Dean Foster's
Codgerspace.  

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:48:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Modified Psionics for TNE

- --- SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 99-05-06 10:07:09 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Computer Empathy 5 >>
> 
> Computer Empathy, what is it?
> -Stephen
> 
It's a psionic power in TNE that allows one to manipu-
late a computer with your mind.

Recovery of psi-points BTW is 2 per hour of rest and 6
per hour of sleep as defined in the wilderness explor-
ation section of TNE.
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 14:01:07 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: High Guard 2nd Errata question.

I just got a copy of HG2, and on page 23, a previous owner drew in an arrow
switching the "Maneuver" and "Jump" labels on the "drive potential table."
Is this an official errata?  an un-official errata?  just a house rule? If
it's errata, is there a source for CT errata on the web somewhere (all I
can find is T4 errata)?

Thanks,


          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 11:07:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Niven's Known Space species

  Has anyone actually done conversions of stuff from the Ringworld
game to any version of Traveller?

  (and no, I don't think of Aslan as pseudo-Kzinti)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 11:07:38 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: correction: F5 1kt JumpExpressCo Fast Liner

  The main stats are correct - AFAIK :( - however, the drop-tank calculations
contain an errore; see below.                                   

>                XR-A431152-050000-85000-0       MCr 452.4      1000 tons
>                  batts.    1     11                             TL=F
>                                                                Crew=10
>        Cargo=196. Passengers=17. LHyd=550. EP=50. Agility=1. Low=0. 
...
>  If used, a drop tank version would carry up to 500 additional tons. At an
>increased annual cost of MCr 17.5 (~+75%, ~MCr 42/pa total) the sellabl
>capacity now increases to 760 Dt (increase of 192%), allowing for annual
>revenue of (10xHi, 10xMid, 632Dt) of MCr 32.2 base, or a needed premium of
>30% - a reduction in J5 service costs of over a third!

  The variant was meant to be (16xHi, 16xMid, 632Dt) for MCr 32.2 base...

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:18:09 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

He he!  I knew *this* was coming, Charles.  :-)

> 1) How does the recieving system know how to unpack and reasemble the code?

Who knows?  I'd say it depends on how the comps work to begin w/, which has 
not be detailed (nor will it).  How do GURPS TL9+ comps work?  The same as 
GTL7s?

> 2)It it is in a standard format where is the anti virus software?

Unknown.  Anti-virus software (which is said in Survival Margin to actually 
be strains Virus itself, by the time of the Collapse) is still coded and 
"made" by people outside of the system, whereas Virus itself is actually 
inside the system and runs circles around it (if not coopting it to it's own 
usage).  There is an electronic combat system in Vampire Fleets for them to 
duel.

> 3) Who tells the recieving unit that the assembled code is an executable?

It's not an "executable."  Stop thinking in TL8 (GTL7) terms.  Say that 
computers don't operate like anything you're familiar with.  For one, they 
have organic cores, and I doubt you have experience w/ them.

> 4) What sane person would let unknown persons remote load a progam and
> remote ececute it on their ships main computer?

Noone did it voluntarily or even finding out till many months later.  
Transponder (which consists of two lobotimized cymbeline predators) chatter 
(w/ direct access to commo and computers) was the primary vector of 
transmission.  Virus is not a "program."  It's a life form that lives in 
electronics.  The next vector was computer controlled tight beam commo 
(accuracies measured in attoradians, doppler shift correction, encoding and 
decoding, etc).

> 5) Are there no computer security people in the traveller universe?

Sure, but they're at an inherent disadvantage operating outside of their own 
evironment against a life form in it's own.  Especially when they don't know 
it's there and find they have no computer references to viruses or combating 
them (the first thing Virus would do is delete or corrupt such information).  
This is in the "dormant" phase.

> 6) No hackers either?

See above.  :-)

> 7) No sysops that can set the operations perameter that says "Disable remote
> ececution"?

Nope.  Get out of your GTL7 rut.  ;-)

> 8) Or set the "Run only from ROM disks" parameter?

TL12+ involves self programming, according to MT Ref's Comp.
Virus is TL16-17.  You can make a case that TL11- ships should be safe from 
Virus.  It's TL10-, as stated in TNE.  I'd be fine w/ that, as the TL-15 IN 
is still going to be completely infected.

> 9) The only way the the virus could reconfigure the computers circuitry is
> if the circuitry was designed to be reconfigured during operation, like a

Which it is.

> neural network.  A hard wired silicon system sealed inside it's chips would
> be invunerable to this form of attack as it's pathways could not be changed.
> The virus would have to gain direct physical contact with the silicon AND
> have the necessary chemicals present in the atmosphere to re etch the
> silicon.  This is stated explicitly in the adventure that introduced the
> inteligent chips.

It's not being done ala the method of the Cymbeline predator.  Low tech level 
computers would be just as you say.  TNE says they're limited to "eggs" which 
behave just like "normal" computer viruses.

> 10) FIBs would be immune as well as their composition is as alien to the
> chips as is our human biology.

Only for the low tech computers.  The rest operates the same (synaptics, self 
programming, etc).

<snip>
> shielded hard wired backups to all critical systems.  These would also be
> immune to the virus as they would have to be EM shielded and EM is the
> method of infection for the virus.

It is?  It's news to me.  lol.

> I personally love the idea of the virus.  It's a great villain.  It can
> still be very deadly even with the logical limitaions that is should have.
> It is smart and can be patient.  It can be even worse than discribed if
> played that way even with the limitaions it suffers from.  I've always
> though the virus got a bum rap.  If properly thought out it could have been
> the boogyman of traveller.  Instead of the grab control of everything and
> kill story that was presented it could have been the 'ghost in the machine'
> that first infiltrated nearly everything before reaking havok.  This way it

That's *exactly* how it happened.  The infiltration was done for *months* 
while the Virus was reproducing like mad.  It developed so fast initially 
because it was inserted directly into Dulinor's flagship's main computer, 
because he thought he had "weapons data" from one of Lucan's Black War 
projects and wanted to analyize it.  From there, it immediately deleted all 
references to computer viruses and how to combat them and proceeded to spread 
though his entire fleet.  Lucan's fleet likewise was infected as they 
intercepted the transmissions.  In any case, they all had SDG transponders 
(w/ a mute) htat made further infection (and reinfection) easy.  The Collapse 
wasn't for many months afterwards, after they had further spread to starports 
control towers (w/ their own transponder), merchant traffic (ditto), etc, in 
teh Safe's (as Dulinor's messangers went back to Ilelish, Lucan's back to 
Capital, etc).

> could have taken secret control of the automated factories and wrote it's
> code into systems as they were being built.  It would have been simplicity
> itself to set a date say 5 years after it's first release for D-day.  The
> sudden attack everywhere at teh same time would have been far more effective
> than what happened in cannon and more believeable as well.

Um... that's exactly how it happened.  Reread Survival Margin, please.  What 
you describe matches exactly Survival Margin pg 74 and 75.  I don't know what 
"cannon" you've been reading...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:33:17 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> My attempt to focus more on a solution rather than elaborating the problem:

Bravo.

> I'm working mostly from memory here, folks, but the worst abuses of drop
> tanks (i.e., dropping before jump, no onboard fuel tankage, etc.) stem from
> the rules specifying that all J-fuel is burned at once before jump, right?
> How far back does this bit of canon go?  I honestly can't remember and my
> sources are currently limited.

It's hardly established in canon, though implied and *assumed* by more than a 
few.  Of course, I say they're wrong.  :-)  Basically it involves 
interpretations from the drop tank rules and something else IIRC.  Basically 
if you simply require that a ship has to have substantial internal tankage 
ala the S9: Gazelle, even the "burn & jump" doesn't hurt DTs.  The main issue 
has been around the economics ala the title of this thread.  :-)   

> The 'burn & jump' rule also created a lot of other interesting bits of
> latter-day TU patching (anything after CT is latter-day, btw :), such as
> jump bubbles.  Correct?

Mmm... i'd say more people putting their detailed spin on jump rather than 
patching.  It was originally (and still is, officially) vague enough to 
accomidate many of them.  The only outright abominations are DGPs (SoM) and 
FFS2's.

> What's with this dang rule, anyway?  =)  I know it violates canon, and I'm
> sure this has been discussed before, but whats wrong with ruling (in a MyTU
> kind of way) that J-fuel is burned continuously throughout the jump?  No
> fuss, no muss.  Is there an undesirable causality chain here I'm missing?

I basically said just that when this thread really got rolling (a month or 
two back). 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:33:20 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

> >>it physically mutates into a Cymbeline chip? And if physical configuration
> ...
> >Not at all.  Why does it have to "physically mutate" or turn into a "chip" 
at
> ...
> 
>   Isn't that how they spread? It certainly was for their Cymbeline 
ancestors -
> the Virus era units have no physical irregulariites from the non-infected 
comp
> systems that they parasatize?

No.  It's an electronic life form that lives in the computer, like a fish 
lives in water.  "Commando chips" that behave exactly like the Cymbeline 
predator could be created to deal w/ "closed" systems, though.  That or 
destruction, though Virus always desires to reproduce (and all the unstable 
strains quickly go the way of the dodo).

> >smarter, faster, etc), etc etc.  It tacks its invasive "code" so that it 
can
> >use a more capable platform.  Remember though, it's more analogous to an
> >electronic life form than a computer virus.
> 
>   So Virus doesn't have a physical component IYTU? Doesn't that render it
> vulnerable to techniques that TNE specifies somehow don't work?

Huh?  What techniques?  There is a physical componet, but it's only a "host." 
 Of course, it can't be disembodied, but can move from one host to another 
(or better yet reproduce and occupy both).

Reference "point identity" and "meta identity" from the Regency Sourcebook, 
if you have it.  If you don't, the library data it's avaiable from 
ftp://ftp.davtechsys.com in any of the "Planet III" sectors.

> >Um... According to SM, the SDG boxes were designed first as transponders.  
It
> >was only later that a weapon was attempted to be made of them (originally
> >they came out as TL-15, but TL-16 & 17 program to modify them into Virus).
> 
>   And they were apparently working on proto-Virus all along, and it never
> occurred to them that such transponders could be used as Trojan Horses? And

It directly occured to them.  It was sometime in 1097-1098 that the first 
work was ordered, but not till Lucan was it completed (or possibly even given 
a real impetus).

> yet it somehow worked out that they were fully backwards compatible?

Only as far as the technology was viable.  Some argue it's not, but they're 
wrong. :-)
The transponder is a ready made Virus box.  It just needs something to 
inhabit it.  This assumes the comps are standardized (and Survival Margin 
states that Imperial ones were... in "Imperial Data Packages" pg 74) and 
exactly how they work, of course.  

> >Even so, transponder chatter was only the easiest method of infection, 
simply
> >because it was "just add water" (there was already a cymbeline chip there, 
w/
> >direct access to the main comp).  Comp controlled (tight beam) commo, eggs,
> >then blackmail, coersion, etc, and also "commando chips."
> 
>   Lucans people ever intended it to spread autonomously via "commando 
chips"?!

No.  That was Virus.  The only *intended* method of infection was via 
transponder.  Virus came up w/ the others on its own, though it was designed 
to simply take over the enemy system then suicide the comp system, making for 
a bloodless capture.

> Were they completely insane (note: "completely" - partial is assumed after
> working for the Boy-Wonder-Emperor - and surviving! - for a few years)? Do
> you mean blackmail & coercion by Vampires or Lucans agents?

By Vampires against crews that wouldn't cooperate is what I meant, though you 
know Lucan.  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:36:16 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed

In a message dated 5/7/99 2:37:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jamstar@earthlink.net writes:

<< I don't see the Munchkin-Class 
 as a viable character ship.  Fact is, I don't see pure drop tank ships as 
 viable at all, but that's just my opinion. >>

I agree. I always thought of drop tank freighters as VERY large, very 
specialized beasts making steady point A to point B runs. I haven't done a 
big (multi-kiloton) ship, but I could see major players like Tukera using 
them IF they are profitable. Maybe this is why tramps are still in business, 
and work the tertiary roots. I could also see the major lines not wanting to 
do drop tank passenger liners, because of the fear of bad publicity if one 
should disappear...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 11:41:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations 

>From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks)
>
>Why not position the station over a high hydrographic percentage world
>instead of a gas giant?

  Fear of dolphin hit men?

 "Yes officer, the facility administrator was swimming in the deep end
last I saw him. The meds say his swim bladder was ruptured by some sort 
of impact by a blunt instrument..."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 11:41:58 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: F6 1kt JumpExpressCo Express Liner

  Here's what looks like a badly uneconomic J6 express liner from JumpExpressCo*
(formerly JumpExpress, also formerly The Package Company**)
        ** Marketing got downsized after that rebranding effort...

** When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) ** F6 1kt JumpExpressCo Express Liner

                XR-A431162-000000-80000-0       MCr 513.2      1000 tons
                  batts.          1                              TL=F
                                                                Crew=8
        Cargo=72. Passengers=17. LHyd=660. EP=60. Agility=1. Low=0.

  Here's where technophilia reaches its logical conclusion - a design willing
to batter itself into unconsciousness against the bleeding edge of the current
TL performance envelope. In addition to costing more and carrying only half the
load of the F5 this type would require the total restructuring of the technical
and customer bases of the company to use its increased range. A single powerful
laser battery comprises the ships armament. If high passengers are to be carried
one cabin can be split to provide quarters for two stewards; all passenger
quarters are allocated at 4 Dt each, although even High passage may require a
breakdown to 2 Dt standards at the needed prices. MCr 641.5 standard.

  Mortgage runs at MCr 25.66/year for the type, and a load of express cargo
and high passengers at normal rates is MCr 8.12/year; the J6 premium of +220%
also means that the marginal price increase over J5 service is at least 60%!

  If used, a drop tank version would carry up to 600 additional tons. At
an increased annual cost of MCr 21 (~+82%, ~MCr 48/a. total) the sellable
capacity now increases to 736 Dt from 136 Dt (increase of 441%!), allowing
annual revenue of (16xHi, 16xMid, 608Dt) of MCr 31.36, or a needed premium
of ~50%. Not only is this only higher by a sixth than the cost of drop J5,
but it's a reduction over the cost of normal J6 by more than half!

  If JumpExpressCo is in fact a subsidiary of Al Morai as some observers
speculate (admittedly, others suggest that it's wholly imaginary; we'll
ignore the ones who insist that we can't really be sure that the universe
or its observers exist either) then Operations will be sorely tempted to
insert an elite squad of dingo dogs to terminate the F6 project team.
Unless drop tanks are allowed to function per HG2/TCS, of course, in which
case it's been happening this way for years, and we just never noticed.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 14:45:47 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Stupid Traveller Tricks

And then there was the story about Johanne Langstrasse, a cowardly starship
pilot from Rech (in the Lanth subsector), who was trapped on board a vessel
full of sophicidal robots and destined to blow up in less than an hour. A
running firefight moves into the gig bay, and the heroic party gets split
up among the parked gigs. Johanne's player tells me that he is moving
slowly along the side of a gig, snub pistol pointed ahead. I inform him
that he hears a footfall behind him. He says: "I whip around and fire!"
Johanne turns and fatally wounds the NPC, who was the only character with
'Ship's Boat' skill (IMTU 'Pilot' and 'Ship's Boat' are not
interchangeable). The party did survive that scenario, but I still tease
the player about his rash action.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:07:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Fun with nukes

For those interested, PBS has a site that will let you drop large nuclear
weapons on various sites.  I just dropped a 25 Megaton device on IG.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/amex/bomb/sfeature/blastmap.html
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 20:08:29 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Population modelling

- -----Original Message-----
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Population modelling


<snip>

>IIRC, there needs to be a beginning population of 400 adults, split
evenly
>male/female and assuming polygamy, for a population to grow without a
raft
>of genetic defects rearing their ugly heads.
>
>Dave
>


Hmmm....you might want more females than males if you want to have
polygamy <g>
(or vice versa for polyandry). Otherwise you have to share wives with
other husbands (dunno what that would be called... polygandry
p'raps...) etc. or only have monogamy.

400 adult sophonts....say 100m and 300f....would probably suffice for
genetic diversity, IIRC the low estimate for Homo Sapiens occupying
the whole world outside of Africa requires a breeding population of
only  c1000 leaving Africa c.50-100000 BP (known as the Out of Africa
II theory).

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
visit my web site =>      www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:18:36 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> For those interested, PBS has a site that will let you drop large nuclear
> weapons on various sites.  I just dropped a 25 Megaton device on IG.
> 
>

Boom! there goes Redmond... 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:21:07 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Express shipping costs recap

F-5 1kt JumpExpressCo Fast Liner XR-A431152-050000-85000-0  MCr 452.4  1kt TL F
        Cargo=196. Passengers=17. LHyd=550. EP=50. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=10.

F6 1kt JumpExpress Express Liner XR-A431162-000000-80000-0  MCr 513.2  1kt TL F
        Cargo=72.  Passengers=17. LHyd=660. EP=60. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=8.

  Calculations are approximate - maintenance at 0.1%, wages, life support, 
and fuel are ignored below. Cargo charge is low, as some portion of revenue
is from passage charged at a similar premium.
 Unit  Mortgage/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-5   MCr 22.62      MCr 12.46      >82%     > Cr 1,820
  F-6   MCr 25.66      MCr  8.12     >216%     > Cr 3,160

  Note that the cost of operating a J6 unit - quite aside from the cost
of setting up new routes using the J6 range - means that the cost for
space aboard such a ship is roughly double that of a Jump 5 ship.

DROP TANKS - includes cost of _disposable_ tanks in operating cost (& mortgage):
 Unit  Ops. Cost/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-5   MCr 40.12      MCr 32.20      >25%     > Cr 1,250
  F-6   MCr 46.66      MCr 31.36      >49%     > Cr 1,490

  Considering that the non-drop-tank costs are pretty much unable to be
reduced further, it should also be considered the re-use of drop tanks
in any way will further reduce the costs of D-tank express service. For
example, if tanks are recovered from standing Jumps (de facto from 100-D
service stations) and checked/refurbished at a cost of KCr 0.5/Dt - a 
savings of 50%, and more than reasonable if they're not physically wrecked
by usage then the following values apply;

DROP TANKS - 50% cost recovery of tanks:
 Unit  Ops. Cost/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge
  F-5   MCr 31.37      MCr 32.20      = 0%     ~ Cr 1,000
  F-6   MCr 36.16      MCr 31.36      >16%     > Cr 1,160

  At this point either the whole cost structure of lower J#'s has to be re-
worked, or the simple fact must be accepted that J6 transport is no longer
much more expensive than any other service, allowing a modest premium for
the faster service.

        Steven Hudson

    ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) **

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #579
**********************************

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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 7 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 580



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Disposal of .....
RE: High Guard 2nd Errata question
Re: Fun with nukes
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Telepresence
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: High Guard 2nd Errata question.
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: ACQ
Re: bad leaders
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
accidents will happen
Re: Population modelling
Re: Traveller CD
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
TML FAQ Notice
Re: Fun with nukes
Re: Traveller Rules on CD
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
Re: Trav Rules on CD

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 20:26:54 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Disposal of .....

- -----Original Message-----
From: Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 07 May 1999 18:42
Subject: Disposal of .....


Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:10:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: hair spray

>Well, "bone chips" (usually "bone *meal*") are a normal additive to
>compost. And in a properly run composting setup, it'd be hell finding
>them, plus, they'd tend to get "eaten" buy the micro-organisms you
>are
>trying to encourage.
>
>That's why I specified "composting". We have a *huge* composting
>center
>for yard debris and the like here.
>
>But teeth *are* a problem. One of the harder things to get rid of.
Leonard
>Erickson

No, just put them in glass of Coca-Cola overnight. That dissolves them
nicely (I think that it is the phosphoric acid that does it). Itried
this
many years ago and it worked.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"Absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant that
it was
impossible to find whatever it you were looking for, which is the
purpose if
computers --- Terry Pratchett
- ----------------------------------------------------------------

Thank god that ancient bodies weren't buried in vats of cola...
as an archaeologist it would seriously harm my career prospects <g>

It's ironic that we have to spend so much time looking after our teeth
in life, yet they are practically indestructible after death (often
being the only part of the body to survive long term in the ground).

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
visit my web site =>      www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 15:49:43 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: High Guard 2nd Errata question

Juliean Galak writes:
"I just got a copy of HG2, and on page 23, a previous owner 
drew in an arrow switching the "Maneuver" and "Jump" labels 
on the "drive potential table." Is this an official errata?  
an un-official errata?  just a house rule? If it's errata, 
is there a source for CT errata on the web somewhere (all I
can find is T4 errata)?"

	Jump drives become available at TL 9 and, IIRC, take 
	up more tonnage than equivalent Maneuver drives.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

On Fri, 7 May 1999, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Boom! there goes Redmond... 

And say "sayonara" to one Mr. M. Mouse... FOOM!

(now *that* is how to spend a Friday afternoon)

I'd love to see a statistical breakdown of the selected targets, to see if
there's a particularly popular place to obliterate.

 -Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:52:46 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

At 07:50 AM 5/7/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Recent discussions of the FGMP has reminded me of something particularly...
>stupid... that a player-character did in a Traveller campaign I ran several
>years ago. And I thought this would make a good thread / discussion topic:
>really dumb things done by players in Traveller (or other games, for that
>matter.)
>
>The setup: the characters are trying to rescue a kidnap victim on some
>planet somewhere, and have traced the kidnappers to a remote cabin in
>a large forest. One of the PCs had gotten a full suit of battle dress
>as a mustering-out benefit, and had a plasma gun as an available weapon.
>A few of the PCs stormed the front of the cabin while a couple of the 
>others spirited the young victim away out the back. A firefight breaks
>out (of course!) -- and the PC with the plasma gun fires it inside the
>cabin. Since the cabin is a small, enclosed space, there was a bit of
>backblast from the plasma as it was partially contained by the cabin
>itself, enough to singe the PCs who were in the cabin with the one 
>carrying the plasma gun. The shot also incinerated all of the bad guys,
>effectively disintegrated the back half of the cabin... and set off a
>major forest fire.
>
>If any of you have any similar anecdotes, of less-than-intelligent
>things done by players, post 'em here!
>
>-- g
>

Been there, done this, several times.

Laser carbines in the starport tank farm, (groan!) 

Lasers in a public forest in high summer.  The smugglers were smart enough
to use slug throwers and disable the parties air raft with a RAM grenade
(burned several nearby towns)  The PC spent the rest of the game trying to
survive the fire and get off planet before someone figured out who started
the fire.

The group's wizard used fireballs on the bandits in the woods...

The group's 'demolitions expert' (skill-0) used 5 pounds of C4 to 'open' a
wall safe...

Some bright player decided to spike a fusion cannon...

Another bright PC decides the best diversion is to crash the city's central
municipal computer.  The one that controled everything including all the
trafic lights.  They got 'diverted' in traffic for 4 hours...

Some bright PCs decided the best way to cover their tracks in a jail break
was to release all the prisoners so no one could tell exactly who they were
breaking out... of a high pop. planet's only violent offenders prison.  I
told them the prison was huge and crowded!  Can you say instant Amber zone?!

One PC in AD&D uses a wand of wonder on a gelatinous cube coming through the
only door in the room.  He roled on the effects table and got 'turn target
to stone'.  The entire party died of suffication.

I broke one group of AD&D players from being to greedy with one deck of many
things.  For those who don't know these items they can be thought of as a
standard deck of playing card with the black cards doing bad things and the
red cards good things.  You can choose to draw up to 4 times but you must
decide before you draw how many cards you will draw.  I had made an actual
deck for them to draw from.  That one deck killed the entire party.  There
are two instant kill no save black cards and several other cards that are
near garanteed death cards.  They knew this before they started though.
After that those player's burned any deck of magical cards they found JIC...
Most of my old AD&D players knew better that to draw from 'THE DECK'.  The
odds are exactly 50/50 good/bad and it is pure luck.  There is no way to
"Stack the deck."

Another interesting thing happen once with this item.  A PC stuck with a
deadly cursed sword insisted on drawing the maximum draws from such a deck.
His second draw was 'Talons, Loose all posessions including the deck'.  He
just grined at me and said 'Bye Bye sword!'.  He wanted the card that gave
wishes to wish that sword away but beggers can be choosers.  I reminded him
that clothes were posessions though...

Anybody else have some stupid PC tricks?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:52:58 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Telepresence

At 09:51 AM 5/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte writes:
>>
>> Not true, commo is far more sensitive to EMP than hardened
>> control circuitry.  You can not really harden commo in the
>> same way you can closed loop control systems.  Commo must
>> have some input point for outside signals.  That point is
>> the week point.  You can narrow the range of energy that can
>> come through that input point but even that circuitry has to
>> be able to handle the EMP surge.  If you cook the commo unit
>> a tele controled suit will loose control and become enert
>> even if the servo systems are undamaged.  By definition a
>> suit with an open comm unit is more open to EMP.  The commo
>> curcuit is a break in the faraday cage that an EMP can enter.
>
>
>That would fry the backup satellite comm system for sure.
>Fortunately, the meson comm rig does not need an external
>antenna and can enjoy the full protection of the suit.


Ouch, good point.  You got me there.  You'd need an area effect meson burst
that would kill the suits as well as the comm and pretty much anything else
in the area.  Not a very 'cheep' kill.

Interesting though, meson comms may be the only comm system that would be
EMP proof.  Could be a very good reason they are so popular.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:53:09 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

At 11:08 AM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Scene: Large, well-defended warehouse on a zero-law level world.  Although
>the warehouse was heavily armored, the admin offices attached were not.
>
>"So what happens if we fill our [105 ton] hold with water and dump it on
>the building."
>
>The players finally decide that what they really need to do is hire a firm
>to *build a wall* around the warehouse to contain all the water.  According
>to one players calculation the water should fill the area inside the wall
>to a depth of 2-3 meters.
>
>I, of course, do my own calculation and come to a somewhat different
>conclusion.
>
>In the end the wall was built at considerable expense (instant foam-crete,
>the Galaxy's fastest building material!) the water was dumped (doing
>considerable damage to the adminstrative offices, and none at all to the
>warehouse) and the water sat in the very large walled area...at a depth of
>6cm.
>
>In the end (due to a distinct lack of "homework") it turned out the two
>type "T" meson guns weren't in the warehouse at all (this should give some
>people an idea of what adventure it was).  That being the obvious place.
>

Why in god's green didn't they use kerocene or gasoline?  One flare gun
round and the problem would have gone 'up in smoke'.  If they used RDX
instead boom!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:54:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: High Guard 2nd Errata question.

>I just got a copy of HG2, and on page 23, a previous owner drew in an arrow
>switching the "Maneuver" and "Jump" labels on the "drive potential table."
>Is this an official errata?  an un-official errata?  just a house rule? If
>it's errata, is there a source for CT errata on the web somewhere (all I
>can find is T4 errata)?

  Unless J-Drive is J#+1 as & then every design I've ever done (and most
that I've seen, I imagine) are wrong. M-Drive should be 2%+ [3*(M-1)]%.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:39:11
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 01:25 PM 5/7/99 +0000, you wrote:

>4) What sane person would let unknown persons remote load a progam and
>remote ececute it on their ships main computer?

Java programmers!!!

Sorry, I agree with everything you said in your post, but couldn't pass up
a straight line like that...
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:42:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: ACQ

At 07:45 PM 5/6/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Okay, okay.  Stop with the ACQ references or the "When" question
>will flood the list.
>
>Or you could nip it in the bud by saying.  ;-)
>
>I know, I know.  "In beta"; "being shopped around to publishers";
>etc., etc.  I recommend self-publishing.  Keep the money yourself.

ACQ is currently in BITS' gentle editorial hands.  Andy has said that he's
getting back to me Real Soon Now about some changes.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:45:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: bad leaders

General A. Burnside, Union Army, US Civil War.  Great peacetime
administrator, utter incompetant when it came to leading soldiers in
battle.  After nearly winning a fight, onlt to order his men into a
deathtrap, Lincoln remarked that only Burnside "could manage such a feat,
to wring such a defeat from the jaws of victory."
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:54:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

At 07:50 AM 5/7/99 -0600, you wrote:

>If any of you have any similar anecdotes, of less-than-intelligent
>things done by players, post 'em here!

And I'll stick them on The Silly Era before you can say "my hovercraft is
full of eels" in High Vilani.
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 13:02:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

At 03:31 PM 5/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>...
>>> Hah! I hear that ACQ already has stats on point-defense penguins...
>>
>>That is a malicious and untrue rumor!
>>
>>_At Close Quarters_ does *not* contain rules for point-defense penguins.
>>They are clearly labeled as *thrown* weapons.
>
>  What if you racked them in boxes with spark plugs by their butts? Would
>that be OK for encouraging them to self-deploy as a salvo? And they're
>already self-guiding...

Unfortunately, penguins dislike being thrown (or launched) and the result
of your plan would be a horde of electrically-charged killer penguins
stampeding across the battlefield to get their revenge.

why yes, I *am* on medication...
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric flightless
 winged squirrel, coming through.."
                -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:59:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

At 09:18 PM 5/6/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Forget about penguins, what's the ACQ stats for fluffy pillows and comfy
chairs???

That's going in the sequel, _In Comfy Quarters_
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 13:10:19 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: accidents will happen

Further to our discussion of getting rid of bodies, I submit the
following item from the San Francisco Examiner, Thursday 6 May 1999,
A-21, col. 1:

"Ranch hand killed in hay shredder

"Point Reyes (California):  A ranch hand was killed when he fell into a
hay-shredding machine, sheriff's officials said.

"The man was last seen alive at about 9 a.m. Tuesday.  Employees of the
family farm discovered his body nearly two hours later.

"The coroner's office said the identity of the victim, who was in his
late 20s, would not be released until Thursday."

This sounds more like a seed for Call of Cthulhu or Shadowrun, I guess.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:20:34 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Population modelling

David Healey writes:
"Hmmm....you might want more females than males if you want 
to have polygamy <g> (or vice versa for polyandry). Otherwise 
you have to share wives with other husbands (dunno what that 
would be called... polygandry p'raps...) etc. or only have 
monogamy."

	Polygynandry is the mating system in which both sexes 
	mate with more than one partner. I'm not sure that
	polygynandry or sex ratio (the relative numbers of 
	males and females) will reduce the negative effects of 
	inbreeding. 'Inbreeding depression' is caused by the
	'deleterious recessive' genes that we (virtually) all 
	carry (deleterious = bad, recessive = has no effect if
	only one of our two copies of a gene is deleterious).
	When we mate with close relatives, there is a much 
	higher probability that the child will get two copies
	of the same deleterious recessive gene, leading to that
	child having the 'bad' effects of the gene. The odds of 
	this are minimized by starting with a population of
	individuals that are as unrelated as possible. Another 
	tactic, if forethought and morals allow, would be to
	intentionally inbreed the population (or use appropriate
	genetic engineering) to 'weed out' the deleterious
	recessives before seeding the population.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 13:22:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

...
>>OK, also wasn't there some sort of other Traveller CD with loads of HIWG 
>>and such articles and software?  Any clue where to obtain it?
>
>  Bryan Borich, IIRC - kagekiha@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 13:22:57 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
...
>> the Virus era units have no physical irregulariites from the non-infected 
>comp systems that they parasatize?
>
>No.  It's an electronic life form that lives in the computer, like a fish 
>lives in water.  "Commando chips" that behave exactly like the Cymbeline 
>predator could be created to deal w/ "closed" systems, though.  That or 
>destruction, though Virus always desires to reproduce (and all the unstable 
>strains quickly go the way of the dodo).

  So IYTU a Virus-infected computer is completely identical (on the gross
physical level) to the unit pre-Virus? No mods to architecture occur?

...
>>   So Virus doesn't have a physical component IYTU? Doesn't that render it
>> vulnerable to techniques that TNE specifies somehow don't work?
>
>Huh?  What techniques?  There is a physical componet, but it's only a "host." 
> Of course, it can't be disembodied, but can move from one host to another 
>(or better yet reproduce and occupy both).

  If Virus is purely dynamic and doesn't physically alter its host then how
can it survive the equivalent of a shut-down and reboot from CD or other
non-dynamic media? How can they physically alter their victims to leave "eggs"?
Why would you even need SDG transponders as "a ready made Virus box"?

  FWIW, I suspect that one of us is mis-remembering Virus' need for physical
modifications to be made in non-SDG systems.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:46:12 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 02:33 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> >>it physically mutates into a Cymbeline chip? And if physical configuration
>> ...
>> >Not at all.  Why does it have to "physically mutate" or turn into a "chip" 
>at
>> ...
>> 
>>   Isn't that how they spread? It certainly was for their Cymbeline 
>ancestors -
>> the Virus era units have no physical irregulariites from the non-infected 
>comp
>> systems that they parasatize?
>
>No.  It's an electronic life form that lives in the computer, like a fish 
>lives in water.  "Commando chips" that behave exactly like the Cymbeline 
>predator could be created to deal w/ "closed" systems, though.  That or 
>destruction, though Virus always desires to reproduce (and all the unstable 
>strains quickly go the way of the dodo).

I was always under the impression from reading the source material that the
lifeform *was* part of the system.  Not some free roaming spirit like a
fish in water.  If the chip has a hard connection to the board, how can it
move?

I have yet to find an argument or explanation to dissuade me from my
initial impression of Virus:  That it was nothing more than writers way to
kill off one of the most popular settings so yet another new set of rules
would be required for the new version of the setting.

All IMO.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 21:46:53 +0100
From: "Stuart C. Squibb" <scs@vectis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: TML FAQ Notice

Just a reminder that the TML FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) can be found
at:

http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html

or by email from:

mailto:robot@vectis.demon.co.uk?subject=send%20tmlfaq-html

for the HTML version

or

mailto:robot@vectis.demon.co.uk?subject=send%20tmlfaq-text

for the text version.

There are also (slightly out-of-date) versions available form the MPGN ftp
server:

ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/tmlfaq-html.zip (HTML)

ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/tmlfaq-text.zip (Text)

For those of you new to the list, it's worth getting a copy of the FAQ
simply for the glossary, which reveals the meanings of such esoteric
abbreviations as AAB, IMTU, ObTrav and FLGS.

As always, comments, corrections and material to fill the gaps welcome.

Stuart.
- ----
Stuart Squibb
Newport, Isle of Wight, England
scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
TML-FAQ: http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:50:12 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> For those interested, PBS has a site that will let you drop large nuclear
> weapons on various sites.  I just dropped a 25 Megaton device on IG.
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/amex/bomb/sfeature/blastmap.html
> --

Ouch!

What are the possible yields of a Briefcase Nuke?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 21:50:04 +0100
From: "Nicholas Wright" <Nick@corlecca.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller Rules on CD

The Traveller rules on CD is the Bryan Borich Project.  Several of us are
scanning, proof-reading and drawing maps as I type.  The intention is to get
the whole of all the CT/MT/TNE/T4 rules and other games, JTAS/Challenge on
CD in several formats Text only, HTML, PDF and reproduction. Reproduction is
to provide the original format of the original publication the other formats
fake this to some extent.  A lot of scanning has been done but there is
always more (of course). The intention is to finish by Christmas.

I must get back to the scanning so

I will remain etc, etc.

Nick Wright

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:27:35 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/6/99 4:42:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:
>
> << t in very large part,
>  that owns lots of other companies around the globe.  One in particular
>  makes some of the highest quality body armor available (the name
>  escapes me but its NYSE traded company, IIRC). >>
>
> could it be Point Blank?...

Nope.  I dug it up.  Its Armor Holdings, Inc., which in turn has a
family of companies, American Body Armor being the one I
was thinking of.  It trades on the NYSE as ABE.

This company looks like the prefect model for a non-Mega Corp.
for Traveller.  I'm going to adopt it into MTU.  Take a look at all
the stuff they're into.

http://www.armorholdings.com/

An impressive list of non-lethal weapons, armor for anything,
specialty munitions, law enforcement equipment, etc.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:33:46 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Trav Rules on CD

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
>
> Bloo said:
> >FYI.: Copyright doesn't work that way.  Simply, you'd be making a copy
> >and you don't have the right.
>
> a. Someone on the TML suggested that you can make one copy yourself for
> personal use, you just need to destroy it if you ever resell the original
> work. I *believe* they have confused this with software, and you can only
> copy a certain percentage of a text-based publication (such as one chapter,
> max).

This is a common misunderstanding of fair use.  There is no certain
percentage that may be copied.  The Fair Use doctrine applies to
anything that qualifies for software protection, including software.
The doctrine, in US law, has a list of factors that courts use to
determine when one has made a fair or unfair use.  No single
factor is determinative.  Its important to remember that its also
a US doctrine, although other countries have similar principles,
they aren't identical.  There are judicial opinions in copyright
cases which state that copying just the Table of Contents of a
book can (but may not always be) copyright infringement.
A US court wouldn't go that far, at least not for a book already
published.

> b. In any case, Marc has stated that we are allowed to copy out-of-print
> material. See the FAQ on my website.

Yes.  But thats with permission.  Thats a license to make one copy
in certain circumstances.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #580
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest         Friday, May 7 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 581



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)
Re : hair spray
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re : solid hydrogen fuel
Re: Fun with nukes
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: accidents will happen
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Fun with nukes
Re: High Guard 2nd Errata question
Re: Battledress
Re: Fun with nukes
Re: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed
Re : Economics of Drop Tanks (jump drives, longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:41:40 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)

Black ICE wrote:

> A giant star goat, I could believe, but _space clams_?!?  From where do
> they draw this pearl of wisdom?
>
> Talk about your half-baked ideas....(No offense intended, Phil.)
>
> Refraining from any number of off-color references....
>

Alt.Rec.Scientology
or alt.something.scientology

I lurked there for a while because the chairman of the board of
trustees at my law school's university represented the 'Church' of
Scientology in some cases in which some of their secret documents
had been posted to the web, and I was curious because I thought
some of their legal practices were questionable.

I stopped when it got way too weird.  But the more I did see,
the clearer to me it was that Hubbard was just ripping off
and distorting Van Vogt and Korzybski and throwing in a
few hallucinogen-induced thoughts for good measure.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 20:57:19 "GMT"
From: "robocon@ozemail.com.au" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : hair spray

This thread has generated some, ahem... 'cute' ideas.
Amanita sp. mushrooms e.g. fly agaric contain amanitins (natch), one of which is a potent inhibitor of RNA polymerase.

Serious cases of intoxication require liver transplantation.

I reckon nicotine base would be an excellent 'salad dressing' ; it has excellent oral bioavailability, is readily obtainable from tobacco, and quite lethal (LD50  in the milligram range).

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

__________________________________________________________
Message sent by MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:05:30 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

>At 11:08 AM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Scene: Large, well-defended warehouse on a zero-law level world.  Although
>>the warehouse was heavily armored, the admin offices attached were not.
>>
>>"So what happens if we fill our [105 ton] hold with water and dump it on
>>the building."
>>
>>The players finally decide that what they really need to do is hire a firm
>>to *build a wall* around the warehouse to contain all the water.  According
>>to one players calculation the water should fill the area inside the wall
>>to a depth of 2-3 meters.
>>
>>I, of course, do my own calculation and come to a somewhat different
>>conclusion.
>>
>>In the end the wall was built at considerable expense (instant foam-crete,
>>the Galaxy's fastest building material!) the water was dumped (doing
>>considerable damage to the adminstrative offices, and none at all to the
>>warehouse) and the water sat in the very large walled area...at a depth of
>>6cm.
>>
>>In the end (due to a distinct lack of "homework") it turned out the two
>>type "T" meson guns weren't in the warehouse at all (this should give some
>>people an idea of what adventure it was).  That being the obvious place.
>>
>
>Why in god's green didn't they use kerocene or gasoline?  One flare gun
>round and the problem would have gone 'up in smoke'.  If they used RDX
>instead boom!
>
>Charles L.

Well, considering there were no oceans of Kerosene or Gasoline around...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 21:07:15 "GMT"
From: "robocon@ozemail.com.au" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : solid hydrogen fuel

Bruce Macintosh wrote :-
> I spoke to Bill Nellis at LLNL, the only person in
>the world who's actually made metallic hydrogen; he
>tells me it can occupy a whole range of densities -
> they've gotten as high as 0.6 g/cm3. Of course, that
>requires pressures formed in the impact of a 7 km/s
> projectile, and temperatures in the thousands of K...

All the more reason why we need gravitics to mass produce the stuff.

Another alternative suggests itself : packing nanofibre  'sponge' with hydrogen molecules. 
We are just trying to get as much hydrogen into as small a volume as possible, yes?

- - gelling
- - cryogenic lattices (atomic hydrogen in helium?)
- - nanofibre sponge
- - metallic hydrogen
- - gravitic confinement systems..?

Questions :-
Are there any alternate liquid phases of hydrogen known?
Would induction of a superfluid state (Bose-Einstein condensate) help attack the problem??

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

Tying jump fuel requirements to mass in a relatively simple way in ship design is more difficult than it appears in the first instance!

__________________________________________________________
Message sent by MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 14:03:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

At 12:49 PM 5/7/99 -0700, you wrote:

>I'd love to see a statistical breakdown of the selected targets, to see if
>there's a particularly popular place to obliterate.

So far, I've destroyed my home, Imperium Games, Ft. Benning Ga, my job, San
Francisco Airport, and the main offices of the Dallas Cowboys.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:07:58 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

> >> the Virus era units have no physical irregulariites from the 
non-infected 
> >comp systems that they parasatize?
> >
> >No.  It's an electronic life form that lives in the computer, like a fish 
> >lives in water.  "Commando chips" that behave exactly like the Cymbeline 
> >predator could be created to deal w/ "closed" systems, though.  That or 
> >destruction, though Virus always desires to reproduce (and all the 
unstable 
> >strains quickly go the way of the dodo).
> 
>   So IYTU a Virus-infected computer is completely identical (on the gross
> physical level) to the unit pre-Virus? No mods to architecture occur?

No you're right.  I was thinking you were saying that there needed to be a 
specific type of computer, to be infectable, rather than the modifications 
Virus will do to a computer once it's in.  Virus does alter the hardware it's 
on, once it's already in.  The first thing it does is build itself a "hidey 
hole" where it can go in case of a shutdown or power loss.  They can also 
"firewall" against an invading strain.

> >>   So Virus doesn't have a physical component IYTU? Doesn't that render it
> >> vulnerable to techniques that TNE specifies somehow don't work?
> >
> >Huh?  What techniques?  There is a physical componet, but it's only a 
"host." 
> > Of course, it can't be disembodied, but can move from one host to another 
> >(or better yet reproduce and occupy both).
> 
>   If Virus is purely dynamic and doesn't physically alter its host then how
> can it survive the equivalent of a shut-down and reboot from CD or other
> non-dynamic media? How can they physically alter their victims to leave 
"eggs"?

You're right on that.  I thought you were going somewhere else rather than 
contradicting you.

> Why would you even need SDG transponders as "a ready made Virus box"?

Just as the easiest vector of infection.  Possibly through peripheral systems 
via other methods.

>   FWIW, I suspect that one of us is mis-remembering Virus' need for physical
> modifications to be made in non-SDG systems.

Not misremembering, but I was misinterpreting where you were going.  I 
shouldn't think non SDG systems need physical modification over an SDG one.  
The SDG is just the transponder, after all.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 16:12:02 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: accidents will happen

Glenn M. Goffin posted:
>
>Further to our discussion of getting rid of bodies, I submit the
>following item from the San Francisco Examiner, Thursday 6 May 1999,
>A-21, col. 1:
>
>"Ranch hand killed in hay shredder
>
>"Point Reyes (California):  A ranch hand was killed when he fell into a
>hay-shredding machine, sheriff's officials said.
>
>"The man was last seen alive at about 9 a.m. Tuesday.  Employees of the
>family farm discovered his body nearly two hours later.
>
>"The coroner's office said the identity of the victim, who was in his
>late 20s, would not be released until Thursday."
>
>This sounds more like a seed for Call of Cthulhu or Shadowrun, I guess.

Sounds more like a candidate for the 1999 Darwin Award.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:13:46 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

> I was always under the impression from reading the source material that the
> lifeform *was* part of the system.  Not some free roaming spirit like a
> fish in water.  If the chip has a hard connection to the board, how can it
> move?

It can't be disembodied, as I said in teh following paragraph, but it can 
either move to another body or just reproduce (clone) itself to another (w/ 
the variations from the new system creating a new personality), though as 
Sandman did in Vampire Fleets, he can "move" to a new system and leave the 
old body empty (deletes himself after he moves or something, i dunno...).

> I have yet to find an argument or explanation to dissuade me from my
> initial impression of Virus:  That it was nothing more than writers way to
> kill off one of the most popular settings so yet another new set of rules
> would be required for the new version of the setting.

From their own mouths (in a Challenge editorial, 77 IIRC), they said they 
wanted to get away from the Rebellion, w/o having a "winner."  The only 
survivor was a non faction, Deneb.  As far as rules sets, it's obvious they 
wouldn't have wanted to keep DGPs and to go to their own (T2k was outselling 
MT big time, too).  Also to advance the setting and to make it more able to 
adventure w/o having to watch for the Imperial "Fun Police" or the chaos of 
the Rebellion and to open the setting to what seems to have been the goal of 
MT:  To break up the one gigantic Imperium into a bunch of smaller ones.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 14:19:19 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
...
>>  What if you racked them in boxes with spark plugs by their butts? Would
>>that be OK for encouraging them to self-deploy as a salvo? And they're
>>already self-guiding...
>
>Unfortunately, penguins dislike being thrown (or launched) and the result
>of your plan would be a horde of electrically-charged killer penguins
>stampeding across the battlefield to get their revenge.

  Ooh - elictric eel genes in penguins! That would make those GURPS Killer
Penguins look pretty lame! (well, actually they have AK's & spells...)

>why yes, I *am* on medication...

  But it's so hard to tell on the TML, sometimes.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 21:21:18 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 02:18 PM 5/7/99 EDT, you wrote:
>He he!  I knew *this* was coming, Charles.  :-)
>

Of course you did.  The virus as discribed is bunk!.

>> 1) How does the recieving system know how to unpack and reasemble the code?
>
>Who knows?  I'd say it depends on how the comps work to begin w/, which has 
>not be detailed (nor will it).  How do GURPS TL9+ comps work?  The same as 
>GTL7s?
>

Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
the operater.  TL will not change this.

>> 2)It it is in a standard format where is the anti virus software?
>
>Unknown.  Anti-virus software (which is said in Survival Margin to actually 
>be strains Virus itself, by the time of the Collapse) is still coded and 
>"made" by people outside of the system, whereas Virus itself is actually 
>inside the system and runs circles around it (if not coopting it to it's own 
>usage).  There is an electronic combat system in Vampire Fleets for them to 
>duel.
>

That is a load of CRAP! for several reasons.  

First, an instruction runs at a fixed rate determined by the clock rate of
the exectuting system.  The viruses instruction are no different that those
of the system itself.  They run at the same speed because it is the system
that set the instruction list.  That is why you have to recompile programs
for different platforms.  The instruction sets are fixed by the command
processors.

Second, inorder for the virsus to become executable it would have to be
flaged as an execuable.  Any security system will moniter the executables
list for that very reason.  As long as the virus is data it is in supended
animation and can take no action.

Third, programs today are being assembled by smart compilers that optomise
the code for the system they were design to run on.  These compilers have
millions of hours of experience in compiling to these systems.  I find it
hard to believe that the virus with little or no experience with the systems
being attacked can match purpose built optomising compilers.

>> 3) Who tells the recieving unit that the assembled code is an executable?
>
>It's not an "executable."  Stop thinking in TL8 (GTL7) terms.  Say that 
>computers don't operate like anything you're familiar with.  For one, they 
>have organic cores, and I doubt you have experience w/ them.
>

That is strawman crap.  There will always be a delineation between data and
code.  Unless you can explain how to 'execute' the Encyclopedea Britannica!
That may sound odd to you but it is a real question.  Executables must be in
the proper format or the precesser will not run them.  Even something like a
human beings mind has the differentiation between memory and instruction code.

Just out of curiousity, fow much assebly code have you written?  If you have
not written any then most of what I have just said will not make anty sence
to you.  The fact is processors MUST have their instruction fed to them in
the exactly correct format or they will error out into an error handling
system (if they do not crash or hang.)

>> 4) What sane person would let unknown persons remote load a progam and
>> remote ececute it on their ships main computer?
>
>Noone did it voluntarily or even finding out till many months later.  

They had to!  As long as the virus was 'data' it was inactive.  To run, it
had to be executed.  Basic security procedures would not allow an unlisted
and unverified executable run on a military system.

>Transponder (which consists of two lobotimized cymbeline predators) chatter 
>(w/ direct access to commo and computers) was the primary vector of 
>transmission.  Virus is not a "program."  It's a life form that lives in 
>electronics.  The next vector was computer controlled tight beam commo 
>(accuracies measured in attoradians, doppler shift correction, encoding and 
>decoding, etc).
>

NOT RELAVENT.  If it is the 'chip lifeform' it must have physical contact
and the proper enviroment to overwrite the circuits.  If it come over the
comm it is a program that must run to realign the neural network to have the
same effect.  If it must run it has to be seen by the system as an
executable file.  That means the code inside that file must be error free
for the system that it is to run on, have executable status, and on a secure
system it must be on the run list with the correct check sum or CRC as a
minimum.  If I were the Sysop, I would require that it also be in ROM
storage and that it be run fron that ROM storage or if it were a learning
program then it would have to have an unbroken evolution history back to the
ROM version that is in storage and pass a history profile checksum and/or CRC.

>> 5) Are there no computer security people in the traveller universe?
>
>Sure, but they're at an inherent disadvantage operating outside of their own 
>evironment against a life form in it's own.  Especially when they don't know 
>it's there and find they have no computer references to viruses or combating 
>them (the first thing Virus would do is delete or corrupt such information).  
>This is in the "dormant" phase.
>

And any secure system worth the name would detect the change with it's next
CRC pass and set off alarms.

As for the programers being 'out of their enviroment', yes and no.  Even
with just a consol the only diference is the speed scale and the person has
the advantage of haveing all the technical data on the system.  The virus is
in a strage new enviroment it's self.  With a neural jack and military ICE
the programer is ready for WAR!

>> 6) No hackers either?
>
>See above.  :-)
>

See responce above.

>> 7) No sysops that can set the operations perameter that says "Disable remote
>> ececution"?
>
>Nope.  Get out of your GTL7 rut.  ;-)
>

Nope, see above.  There will aways be a difference between data and code.
The code MUST be in the processors command code format.  Data does not have
to be.

>> 8) Or set the "Run only from ROM disks" parameter?
>
>TL12+ involves self programming, according to MT Ref's Comp.
>Virus is TL16-17.  You can make a case that TL11- ships should be safe from 
>Virus.  It's TL10-, as stated in TNE.  I'd be fine w/ that, as the TL-15 IN 
>is still going to be completely infected.
>

See above for evelutionary history CRC.

>> 9) The only way the the virus could reconfigure the computers circuitry is
>> if the circuitry was designed to be reconfigured during operation, like a
>
>Which it is.
>

But the virus must be an executable to do so.

>> neural network.  A hard wired silicon system sealed inside it's chips would
>> be invunerable to this form of attack as it's pathways could not be changed.
>> The virus would have to gain direct physical contact with the silicon AND
>> have the necessary chemicals present in the atmosphere to re etch the
>> silicon.  This is stated explicitly in the adventure that introduced the
>> inteligent chips.
>
>It's not being done ala the method of the Cymbeline predator.  Low tech level 
>computers would be just as you say.  TNE says they're limited to "eggs" which 
>behave just like "normal" computer viruses.
>

Then it mush be as an executable program that must past the security system.

>> 10) FIBs would be immune as well as their composition is as alien to the
>> chips as is our human biology.
>
>Only for the low tech computers.  The rest operates the same (synaptics, self 
>programming, etc).
>

And the FIB will load all it's programs from it's own ROM to start with and
procude it's own operation history files to act as it's security system.  It
is also likely a back up system that has only the eccential programs.  It is
unlikely to run adatpive software due to their inherantly greater likelyhood
of coruptions.  IT is you last ditch fallback system after all.

><snip>
>> shielded hard wired backups to all critical systems.  These would also be
>> immune to the virus as they would have to be EM shielded and EM is the
>> method of infection for the virus.
>
>It is?  It's news to me.  lol.
>

IT'S THE EMERGENCY BACK UP!  Of course it will be as fail safe and protected
as it can be.  Why would you have a back up system that is just as likely to
be on the fritz as the main system?  BAck ups usually are simpler and more
rugged than the main system.  They have less functionallity so their is less
to go wrong and they have hard coded ROM backups of their software just in
case something requires a hard reset and system purge.  I would never use a
hardware adaptive system as a last backup.  You might as well put a sign
'crash bait' on the ship.  Or are you suggesting the IQ will drop sharply in
the engineering fields in the future?  I would be very surprised if a
military ship did not have a system that would let the ship be operated
without any computers as a final backup.  That system might be very limited
but all it would have to do is get the crew home alive.

>> I personally love the idea of the virus.  It's a great villain.  It can
>> still be very deadly even with the logical limitaions that is should have.
>> It is smart and can be patient.  It can be even worse than discribed if
>> played that way even with the limitaions it suffers from.  I've always
>> though the virus got a bum rap.  If properly thought out it could have been
>> the boogyman of traveller.  Instead of the grab control of everything and
>> kill story that was presented it could have been the 'ghost in the machine'
>> that first infiltrated nearly everything before reaking havok.  This way it
>
>That's *exactly* how it happened.  The infiltration was done for *months* 
>while the Virus was reproducing like mad.  It developed so fast initially 
>because it was inserted directly into Dulinor's flagship's main computer, 
>because he thought he had "weapons data" from one of Lucan's Black War 
>projects and wanted to analyize it.  From there, it immediately deleted all 
>references to computer viruses and how to combat them and proceeded to spread 
>though his entire fleet.  Lucan's fleet likewise was infected as they 
>intercepted the transmissions.  In any case, they all had SDG transponders 
>(w/ a mute) htat made further infection (and reinfection) easy.  The Collapse 
>wasn't for many months afterwards, after they had further spread to starports 
>control towers (w/ their own transponder), merchant traffic (ditto), etc, in 
>teh Safe's (as Dulinor's messangers went back to Ilelish, Lucan's back to 
>Capital, etc).
>

I read that and that was not what I was refering to.  I ment that the virus
did not infiltrate far enough into sociaty to strike a death blow.  It
showed it's hand to early.  It stared killing ships with two weeks, IIRC.

>> could have taken secret control of the automated factories and wrote it's
>> code into systems as they were being built.  It would have been simplicity
>> itself to set a date say 5 years after it's first release for D-day.  The
>> sudden attack everywhere at teh same time would have been far more effective
>> than what happened in cannon and more believeable as well.
>
>Um... that's exactly how it happened.  Reread Survival Margin, please.  What 
>you describe matches exactly Survival Margin pg 74 and 75.  I don't know what 
>"cannon" you've been reading..

I did, that is not how it is documented.  It jumped mainly through the comm
system ant that is where I have the problem.  I'm not saying that a 'seed'
could not be past imbeded in some program that would in time infect
thousands of systems.  I'm saying the what is atributed to the virus is not
the pattern that such a weapon would take.  The infection was first to fast
and second not pervasive enough.  There was never an explaination of how it
got arround the security systems.  There are hundred of small mistakes that
just add up to incansistances that make the virus as is unbelieveable.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:22:02 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

In a message dated 5/7/99 12:21:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< For those interested, PBS has a site that will let you drop large nuclear
 > weapons on various sites.  I just dropped a 25 Megaton device on IG.
 > 
 >
 
 Boom! there goes Redmond... 
  >>

It's nice to know that my apartment is within the 12 PSI zone of Nellis 
AFB...:-(  I'm glad I'm noving to the other side of the valley in 6 months...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:23:45 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: High Guard 2nd Errata question

In a message dated 5/7/99 12:52:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
ian@vax2.concordia.ca writes:

<< Juliean Galak writes:
 "I just got a copy of HG2, and on page 23, a previous owner 
 drew in an arrow switching the "Maneuver" and "Jump" labels 
 on the "drive potential table." Is this an official errata?  
 an un-official errata?  just a house rule? If it's errata, 
 is there a source for CT errata on the web somewhere (all I
 can find is T4 errata)?"
 
 	Jump drives become available at TL 9 and, IIRC, take 
 	up more tonnage than equivalent Maneuver drives. >>

I've always played it the way it's in the book...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:26:50 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

I've been off for awhile, so my post is probably late. But here goes:
>
>The other side of endurance is trooper fatigue.  I was lucky enough to take
>part in an experiment in how long infantry could stand being in MOPP 4
>chemical warfare gear.  The longest was 70 hours.  Most of us went nuts
>within a day.  To put it simply, you can't get to an itch, blow your nose,
>rub a sore muscle, etc., in a suit of battledress.  Individual effcienicy
>is going to plummet the longer the trooper stays in the can.  I guarntee
>that no matter how you fiddle, there will be something in that suit that
>will be irratating as hell after about 12 hours.
>
Let's take a look at the cultural background here.  How many of these guys
are from Asteroid Belt/Vacuum world cultures? People from these places
probably grew up spending weeks at a time in suits. What's a set of
Battledress but a souped up spacesuit?



Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:26:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 12:49 PM 5/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >I'd love to see a statistical breakdown of the selected targets, to see if
> >there's a particularly popular place to obliterate.
> 
> So far, I've destroyed my home, Imperium Games, Ft. Benning Ga, my job, San
> Francisco Airport, and the main offices of the Dallas Cowboys.

I'm thinking of getting my Twilight: 2000 set out, and hitting all the
targets listed therein.  Already took out the Exxon refinery here in
Baton Rouge.  With the 1 MT surface burst, my apartment survives rather
well (between the 2 psi and 1 psi rings).  With the 25 MT air burst,
most of Baton Rouge is inside the 5 psi ring.

> --
> 
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:30:47 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Fri, 07 May 1999 14:20:09 +0100
>Pseudo-reality check <grin>
>
>200KT/week = 10MT/year
>
>           * 500Cr/ton for refined fuel
>
>           = 5,000MCr/year
>
>I think that ought to be able to pay for a few fueling stations.

I posted an analysis under GT where a minor system had to have a
ship waiting around at the port, follow it out to the jump
point, give it fuel, and come back.  In such a case if you
got more than about a couple of Free Traders a week, you came
out ahead.  As volume increases, you get economies of scale and
can start doing things like just "throwing" large chunks of ice
in from the out system and "catching" them at the 100 diam limit
of the main world.

>Please adjust the figures for any error in my memory.
>
>Before people start saying:
>
>"there's *too much* trade in system X for fuelling stations to be viable"
>
>Would they first consider how all the merchants were planning to refuel
>without the fuelling stations. Personally, I reckon the large trade volumes
>are done by big unstreamlined freighters operating out of the highport.
>
>If this is true, someone has to get the fuel to the highport,
>someone has to take the goods down to the planet.

Take a look at Far Trader for an discussion of this.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:30:55 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed

Fri, 07 May 1999 05:29:40 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>

>These boats take a down payment of 28.9 MCr, with payments of 602.083
>KCr/month.  Salaries & such kick expenses on the Chump up to 653.183 KCr
>total.  The Munchkin needs to spend 90KCr/jump for its drop tanks, or
>180KCr/month assuming 2 jumps per month, for a total of 833.183KCr.

You are assuming that drop tanks aren't reusuable? Also, it doesn't make
sense for a fuel tank in a ship to cost nothing but for it to
suddenly be so expensive on its own.

OK, my analysis under GT that I posted a few weeks back was vastly
different.  One reason may be the use of non-reusable drop tanks.
That is one of the problems that many of us have.  There isn't any reason
why this should be true.  The other is it that the cost of fuel tanks is
treated as zero when they are removed from the drop-tank ship, but not when
the cost of the frop tanks is computed.  Then you need to spread the cost
over all the ship using them.

See my post on or about 4/29 for a look at this under GT....

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 21:35:35 "GMT"
From: "robocon@ozemail.com.au" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Economics of Drop Tanks (jump drives, longish)

The various 'Done to Death' drafts on this subject have been very good.

My Cr 0.02 :-

Entry into jump space requires the expenditure of large amounts of energy. This is provided by nuclear fusion at typical Imperial Tech Levels. Antimatter and quantum vacuum energy look like alternative sources (speculative at TL 15!).

With the initial burst of energy (the 'induction phase'), a controlled distortion in space-time is generated within the jump drive ; this is propagated by the jump grid which covers the surface of a starship. The range of the distortion is relatively small, and 'fuzzy' around the edges ; virtual particles are forced to become real at the interface of the nascent jump field.
This 'edge bleeding' effect means a continued power input is necessarry to maintain the stability of the distortion.

At a certain energy threshold, the contents of the distortion are precipitated into jump space. *Further energy and reaction mass need to be expended to maintain the stability of the bubble of 'normal' space containing the starship.* This is sometimes referred to as the 'maintenance phase'.

To travel further requires access to more tightly woven jump space dimensions, and thus more energy.

<homer s.>
Mmm... induction and maintenance. 
</homer s.>

The concept has some appeal to a simple critical care doc like me.... 

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

Position Statement : Leave jump capacitors where they belong - firmly attached to the j-drives! No BIG fusion pulse driven weapons, please...

__________________________________________________________
Message sent by MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #581
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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 7 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 582



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: accidents will happen
Re: Imperial Military
Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)
Re: Re : hair spray
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: help unsubscribe - handled 
Re: Drop tank numbers
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 
Re: bad leaders
Re: bad leaders 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 
Re: bad leaders
Re: bad leaders 
Re: Fun with nukes 
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 
Re: Fun with nukes 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Population modelling
Re: Fun with nukes 
Re: Fun with nukes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 14:40:05 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: accidents will happen

Smart, David J (David) wrote:
> 
> Glenn M. Goffin posted:
> >
> >Further to our discussion of getting rid of bodies, I submit the
> >following item from the San Francisco Examiner, Thursday 6 May 1999,
> >A-21, col. 1:
> >
> >"Ranch hand killed in hay shredder
> This sounds more like a seed for Call of Cthulhu or Shadowrun, I guess.
> 
> Sounds more like a candidate for the 1999 Darwin Award.

Actually, getting yourself killed with farm machinery is rather
extraordinarily easy, one reason it's one of the most dangerous
professions, in terms of per-worker death and injury.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:42:49 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Military

In a message dated 5/6/99 11:03:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

<< 
 Figures for ground troops could be taken from the 5FW boardgame. The is
 also an article on the topic of on-planet (local) battalions in an early
 JTAS, #10, I think.
 ---------- >>

	Isn't there also a breakdown of army troop battalions in the MT 
Referee's Companion?

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:44:26 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress (was Re: low tech melee weapons)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
<<snip>
> 
> The other side of endurance is trooper fatigue.  I was lucky enough to take
> part in an experiment in how long infantry could stand being in MOPP 4
> chemical warfare gear.  The longest was 70 hours.  Most of us went nuts
> within a day.  To put it simply, you can't get to an itch, blow your nose,
> rub a sore muscle, etc., in a suit of battledress.  Individual effcienicy
> is going to plummet the longer the trooper stays in the can.  I guarntee
> that no matter how you fiddle, there will be something in that suit that
> will be irratating as hell after about 12 hours.
> 
From _Starship Troopers_, Ace Books edition, page 84:

"If I ever find a suit that will let me scratch between my shoulder
blades, I'll marry it." - Recruit Private Juan Rico

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 14:49:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Re : hair spray

robocon@ozemail.com.au wrote:
> 
> This thread has generated some, ahem... 'cute' ideas.
> Amanita sp. mushrooms e.g. fly agaric contain amanitins (natch), one of which is a potent inhibitor of RNA polymerase.
> 
> Serious cases of intoxication require liver transplantation.
> 
> I reckon nicotine base would be an excellent 'salad dressing' ; it has excellent oral bioavailability, is readily obtainable from tobacco, and quite lethal (LD50  in the milligram range).
> 

Oooohhh that reminds me. A long time ago (on the order of 25-30 years,
IIRC) some migrant farm workers died of some unknown cause on a major
farm here in arizona. All sorts of hooferaw, as it was pretty quickly
discovered that the fields had just been sprayed with toxic
insecticides, and the farm in question belonged to the Goldwater family
(yes _that_ Goldwater).

Speculation and lurid headlines about the evil land barons spraying
poison on the migrant laborers appeared, until the autopsy revealed that
they had cooked about a pound of a wild tobacco that they found growing
in the ditch, thinking it was an edible green, and ate it with dinner.

Instant heart attacks. The chemist who did the analysis on their meal
said they had some 50-100 times the lethal dose per serving.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:52:10 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

In a message dated 5/7/99 9:53:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cos90@powersurfr.com writes:

<< 
 If any of you have any similar anecdotes, of less-than-intelligent
 things done by players, post 'em here!
  >>

	In a combination Striker/Mercenary campaign I ran, a player flying a 
helicopter made a tree-top level run at an enemy laser emplacement and 
dropped a bomb from 20 meters,  too bad the bomb had a burst radius of 40 
meters.  At least he did destroy the laser before being made into french 
toast.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 17:49:52 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: help unsubscribe - handled 

> On Thu, 06 May 1999 16:36:16 -0700,
> Suz Dollar informed us:
> >
> >FYI, I have privately emailled the inquiring party directions for
> >unsubscribing.  Sorry to waste the bandwith with this message, but
> >hopefully this will deter flames and multiple responses.
> >
> >Suz
> 
> Suz,
> 
> Thank you for doing so.
> 
> If I may be so bold, you are truly a Lady.
> 
> (respectful bow)

<ducking>

I wouldn'tve called her that in mixed company!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

</humour>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:02:06 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers

David P. Summers writes:

>...it doesn't make  sense for a fuel tank in a ship to cost nothing but for
>it to suddenly be so expensive on its own.

Drop tanks are cheaper than internal tankage. The cost of the internal
tankage is the cost of that portion of the hull that they fill out. To
convince yourself of that, simply design two ships: one with internal
tankage and the same ship with no internal tankage and the equivalent
drop tank tankage.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 17:58:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed
> ...
> >These boats take a down payment of 28.9 MCr, with payments of 602.083 
> >KCr/month.  Salaries & such kick expenses on the Chump up to 653.183 KCr 
> >total.  The Munchkin needs to spend 90KCr/jump for its drop tanks, or 
> >180KCr/month assuming 2 jumps per month, for a total of 833.183KCr.
> 
>   Please note that per TCS, p.14, the tanks themselves only cost KCr 80
> per set; the extra KCr 10 in HG2 appears to be brackets on the ship.

Per HG2, drop tanks are 10KCr + 1KCr per ton carried.  It's on pg 27.
 
> ...
> >Revenue from hauling freight is 2K/ton/month, or 480KCr for the Chump, 640KCr 
> >for the Munchkin, assuming full loads and 2 jumps per month.  The Chump has a 
> >net shortfall in revenues of 173.183 KCr/month, while the debt racks up to 
> >193.183/month on the Munchkin.
> 
>   If both ships are guaranteed to lose money then is their "efficiency"
> really important? With the basic CT KCr 1.0 ton/jump (or x2 month?) these
> ships don't
> prosper; did you run the numbers for 30-35 trips/year, and/or partial carriage
> of passengers. The price listed in undiscounted? As the stats listed above
> indicate maximum revenue of 6% of unit price something is clearly wrong. Are
> you assuming a modest premium for faster than J1 delivery?

1.  Nope.  2.  Not yet.  And besides, the ships are optimised for *freight* 
with no passenger space availiable.  3.  Correct.  The prices are for the lead 
boat of the class.  4.  Huh?
 
>   As indicated previously, disparities between vessel types are much more
> pronounced at higher J#'s.

I take that to mean, "it's a good way to go broke faster if you wanna slice open your checking account's jugular vein and squeeze."

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:07:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 

> In a message dated 5/7/99 2:37:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> jamstar@earthlink.net writes:
> 
> << I don't see the Munchkin-Class 
>  as a viable character ship.  Fact is, I don't see pure drop tank ships as 
>  viable at all, but that's just my opinion. >>
> 
> I agree. I always thought of drop tank freighters as VERY large, very 
> specialized beasts making steady point A to point B runs. I haven't done a 
> big (multi-kiloton) ship, but I could see major players like Tukera using 
> them IF they are profitable. Maybe this is why tramps are still in business, 
> and work the tertiary roots. I could also see the major lines not wanting to 
> do drop tank passenger liners, because of the fear of bad publicity if one 
> should disappear...

The only way I could see them as being profitable is if you're doing a lotta 
spec trading and can con your reff into allowing you to buy 1xWorldSize or 
1xPop lots of stuff off the old CT spec trade tables with a good broker.  This 
ain't legal per CT; the rule is *1* lot per week regardless, and it's assumed 
to be the *best* deal the characters can find.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:10:42 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: bad leaders

	On the other hand,   Hannibal inherited his position from his father 
Hamiclar Barca, and the chap he massacred at Cannae was an elected official.  
Likewise, I seem to remember that Alexander the Great was not exactly a 
self-made man.   The Caesars also were an old aristocratic family.   Frederik 
the Great was also a nobly-born king.   When Sparta duked it out with Athens, 
the Spartans won, although their kings were all from aristocratic lines while 
the Athenian generals were chosen "on account of merit and ability" by the 
electorate.   
	Both aristocratic and democratic societies are equally able to 
produce excellent and inept leaders, there doesn't seem to be an inherent 
advantage to either system.  The advantage of a democratic system is a 
greater range of choice of natural talent, the advantage of an aristocratic 
system is the ability to concentrate training and preparation resources on a 
fixed pool of talent.   The "all aristocrats are bumbling twits" attitude is 
a relatively recent conceit, and one without  alot of meat behind it.

		Dave "The Old Marquis" Nelson
		great great grandson to a minor Austro-Hungarian count

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:15:22 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: bad leaders 

> General A. Burnside, Union Army, US Civil War.  Great peacetime
> administrator, utter incompetant when it came to leading soldiers in
> battle.  After nearly winning a fight, onlt to order his men into a
> deathtrap, Lincoln remarked that only Burnside "could manage such a feat,
> to wring such a defeat from the jaws of victory."

McClellan wasn't that hot of a general, either, IIRC.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:18:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

> >>> Hah! I hear that ACQ already has stats on point-defense penguins...
> >>
> >>That is a malicious and untrue rumor!
> >>
> >>_At Close Quarters_ does *not* contain rules for point-defense penguins.
> >>They are clearly labeled as *thrown* weapons.
> >
> >  What if you racked them in boxes with spark plugs by their butts? Would
> >that be OK for encouraging them to self-deploy as a salvo? And they're
> >already self-guiding...
> 
> Unfortunately, penguins dislike being thrown (or launched) and the result
> of your plan would be a horde of electrically-charged killer penguins
> stampeding across the battlefield to get their revenge.

Are they wearing Linus Torvald t-shirts?  Do they *HONOR* Linus Torvald 
t-shirts??  Can I equip my troops with Linus Torvald t-shirts before they get 
there??????
 
> why yes, I *am* on medication...

Sounds like you need to up your dosage a bit, Doug.  You're making too much sense!  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:31:04 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 

> > A giant star goat, I could believe, but _space clams_?!?  From where do
> > they draw this pearl of wisdom?
> >
> > Talk about your half-baked ideas....(No offense intended, Phil.)
> >
> > Refraining from any number of off-color references....
> >
> 
> Alt.Rec.Scientology
> or alt.something.scientology
> 
> I lurked there for a while because the chairman of the board of
> trustees at my law school's university represented the 'Church' of
> Scientology in some cases in which some of their secret documents
> had been posted to the web, and I was curious because I thought
> some of their legal practices were questionable.
> 
> I stopped when it got way too weird.  But the more I did see,
> the clearer to me it was that Hubbard was just ripping off
> and distorting Van Vogt and Korzybski and throwing in a
> few hallucinogen-induced thoughts for good measure.

I heard an apocryphal reference once that claimed Hubbard said that the only way to make and *KEEP* a million dollars in the U.S. was to start your own religion.  Don't have a cite for it tho, so consider it Class 4 intel, ok?

ObTrav:  What kinds of religions exist IYTU that 'most' locals think are just a fast scam?  What religions IYTU are considered to be 'real religions'?  IMTU, the Solomani Catholic Church, both branches (Orthodox & Sylean), are thriving propositions.  The major point of contention seems to be whether or not St Elvis did or did not shoot Nixon.  Another popular church in Reavers' Deep is something I swiped directly from Andy Keith -- the Church of the Future Man, straight outta his 'Rescue on Galatea'.

In a PBEM that I play in (Hi, Roger!!), my character is a lapsed Solomani Catholic with the name of Romli Issak Elvis Hamlin, the 'Elvis' being of course St Elvis of Terra.  One of the people he has to deal with on a daily basis is one Father Ivan, a priest of the Order of St. Michael.  <grin>

Keven


Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 17:34:14 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: bad leaders

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > General A. Burnside, Union Army, US Civil War.  Great peacetime
> > administrator, utter incompetant when it came to leading soldiers in
> > battle.  After nearly winning a fight, onlt to order his men into a
> > deathtrap, Lincoln remarked that only Burnside "could manage such a feat,
> > to wring such a defeat from the jaws of victory."
> 
> McClellan wasn't that hot of a general, either, IIRC.

From _Guns of the South_ (from memory), President Lee speaking with his
military aide:

Lee:  "If the Army of Northern Virginia campaigned in as dilatory a
manner as the Senate deliberates, AK-47s would not have sufficed to win
our independence."

Aide:  "If the army of Northern Virginia campaigned in as dilatory a
manner as the Senate deliberates, it would have been McClellan's Army of
the Potomac instead."

> 
> Keven
> 
> tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                      Science-Fiction Adventure
>                                                      In Reavers' Deep

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:39:10 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: bad leaders 

>> General A. Burnside, Union Army, US Civil War.  Great peacetime
>> administrator, utter incompetant when it came to leading soldiers in
>> battle.  After nearly winning a fight, onlt to order his men into a
>> deathtrap, Lincoln remarked that only Burnside "could manage such a feat,
>> to wring such a defeat from the jaws of victory."
>
>McClellan wasn't that hot of a general, either, IIRC.


    Nope, always over estimated his enemy.  Meade was a slow assed bastard.
Only Grant, Sherman, & Sheriden could fight Lee on somewhat equal terms.
But each one was called a drunk or a madman by his peers.
    Hooker could also fight, when he was not with one of Hooker's.

>Keven


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:32:15 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes 

> At 12:49 PM 5/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >I'd love to see a statistical breakdown of the selected targets, to see if
> >there's a particularly popular place to obliterate.
> 
> So far, I've destroyed my home, Imperium Games, Ft. Benning Ga, my job, San
> Francisco Airport, and the main offices of the Dallas Cowboys.

Why'd you pass up Cleveland???

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:42:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 

> Fri, 07 May 1999 05:29:40 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> 
> >These boats take a down payment of 28.9 MCr, with payments of 602.083
> >KCr/month.  Salaries & such kick expenses on the Chump up to 653.183 KCr
> >total.  The Munchkin needs to spend 90KCr/jump for its drop tanks, or
> >180KCr/month assuming 2 jumps per month, for a total of 833.183KCr.
> 
> You are assuming that drop tanks aren't reusuable? Also, it doesn't make
> sense for a fuel tank in a ship to cost nothing but for it to
> suddenly be so expensive on its own.

Under CT rules, the drop tanks are used and ditched.  That's why they're 
*called* drop tanks.  They don't get reused, they float off into space / get 
pulled into the jump bubble / whatever, but the point is, they *can't* get 
reused cause they're *gone*.   And the price of the internal tankage is taken 
into account with the cost of the hull under CT.  Effectively, it's zero, 
because the 100KCr/ton of the ship is the bracing, etc that a ship needs to 
survive Jump space, et. al.
 
> OK, my analysis under GT that I posted a few weeks back was vastly
> different.  One reason may be the use of non-reusable drop tanks.

That's cause you use GT.  I don't.

> That is one of the problems that many of us have.  There isn't any reason
> why this should be true.  The other is it that the cost of fuel tanks is
> treated as zero when they are removed from the drop-tank ship, but not when
> the cost of the frop tanks is computed.  Then you need to spread the cost
> over all the ship using them.

OK, lemme try this again.  Internal tankage is already prefigured in when you 
design a hull.  It's part of the 100KCr/ton that the hull costs.  Drop tanks 
ain't part of the hull, so they're extra.  HG2 says they're 10KCr *plus* 
1KCr/ton of fuel carried.  And you still gotta buy the fuel; these suckers are 
shipped *dry*.  You recompute performance *only* if you attempt to jump with 
the drop tanks attached.  This is because the ship now has a bigger 
displacement than it would without.  Got it?
 
> See my post on or about 4/29 for a look at this under GT....

I don't 'do' GURPS.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:49:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes 

On Fri, 7 May 1999, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > So far, I've destroyed my home, Imperium Games, Ft. Benning Ga, my job, San
> > Francisco Airport, and the main offices of the Dallas Cowboys.
> 
> Why'd you pass up Cleveland???

Waste of ordinance. Who'd be able to tell?

- -BB

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:48:53 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> Fri, 07 May 1999 14:20:09 +0100
> >Pseudo-reality check <grin>
> >
> >200KT/week = 10MT/year
> >
> >           * 500Cr/ton for refined fuel
> >
> >           = 5,000MCr/year
> >
> >I think that ought to be able to pay for a few fueling stations.
> 
> I posted an analysis under GT where a minor system had to have a
> ship waiting around at the port, follow it out to the jump
> point, give it fuel, and come back.  In such a case if you
> got more than about a couple of Free Traders a week, you came
> out ahead.  As volume increases, you get economies of scale and
> can start doing things like just "throwing" large chunks of ice
> in from the out system and "catching" them at the 100 diam limit
> of the main world.

You're gonna throw ice chunks out at a ship at the 100 diameter limit.  OK, 
the ice is moving.  It's a *BIG* chunk.  So the target ship has to match 
vectors with the chunk.  Too slow, and it takes too long for the chunk to get 
there and you have to schedule the toss a couple weeks in advance.  Too fast, 
and the ship has to waste time chasing and catching the ice chunk, or be out 
of fuel.  Ever calculate the energy of a 2000 ton snowball barrelling in at 
35km/sec?  And btw, IMSC, that's the amount of energy you have to apply to 
that 2000 ton snowball to bring it to a dead stop as well.  You miss your 
target, something is gonna go *SPLAT*.  Not good on a resume'.
 
> >Before people start saying:
> >
> >"there's *too much* trade in system X for fuelling stations to be viable"
> >
> >Would they first consider how all the merchants were planning to refuel
> >without the fuelling stations. Personally, I reckon the large trade volumes
> >are done by big unstreamlined freighters operating out of the highport.
> >
> >If this is true, someone has to get the fuel to the highport,
> >someone has to take the goods down to the planet.

IIRC, the figure is on the order of 100Cr/ton to & from the high port.  Can't 
remember for the life of me where I saw this though.
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:55:01 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Population modelling

In a message dated 99-05-07 07:21:59 EDT, you write:

<< IIRC, there needs to be a beginning population of 400 adults, split evenly
 male/female and assuming polygamy, for a population to grow without a raft
 of genetic defects rearing their ugly heads. >>

Or you can have a smaller pop and use artifishal insiminashion with other DNA 
to get around that, the DNA storeage can also become a plot device.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:55:58 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes 

> On Fri, 7 May 1999, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > > So far, I've destroyed my home, Imperium Games, Ft. Benning Ga, my job, San
> > > Francisco Airport, and the main offices of the Dallas Cowboys.
> > 
> > Why'd you pass up Cleveland???
> 
> Waste of ordinance. Who'd be able to tell?

Ah come on, Brannon.  Knocking Cleveland back into the Stone Age would set them back at *LEAST* 3 weeks.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:04:12 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

Man, took you folks some time.
The 2300 list was playing with this 2 months ago.  Hehe.
I worked through most of the Houston area nukes for T2K.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes


>
>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>
>> For those interested, PBS has a site that will let you drop large nuclear
>> weapons on various sites.  I just dropped a 25 Megaton device on IG.
>>
>> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/amex/bomb/sfeature/blastmap.html
>> --
>
>Ouch!
>
>What are the possible yields of a Briefcase Nuke?
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #582
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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 7 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 583



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GT space combat questions
I'm BAAAaaaack!
Re: World Maps
Re: Fleets
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Drop tank numbers
Re: I'm BAAAaaaack!
Re: World Maps
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Patrol Cruiser
Re: Imperial Military
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Patrol Cruiser
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Fleets
Re: Patrol Cruiser
Disposal of .....
RE: Traveller Theme
FW: Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:15:48 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: GT space combat questions

To the list:

I'm converting a HG design into GT, and I have some questions. Spinal mounts 
do max damage of 60,000 DR, correct? If so; would that mean I would need 
enough meson screen modules to negate 60,000 DR? As for a PAW spinal mount 
hit, what amount of armor would I need? I know I've got to stop 60,000 DR, 
but pg. 168 says: " subtract target DR (modified by armor divisior)". What is 
the armor divisor? Is that the PD rating of 4? Does this mean that the 
attacking 60,000 DR PAW shot is divided down to 15,000 DR, so I just need 
armor that has a Dr of 15,000?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 16:23:13 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: I'm BAAAaaaack!

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE98A5.E7553760
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

2,750 messages in my inbox after a half hour downloading them.  Ouch.  =
This is gonna' take awhile.  Sorry for being MIA for almost two weeks.  =
I took a little vacation, during which my notebook crapped out the first =
day (that's what my e-mail was on).  Then, when I got back from =
vacation, I found out my department had been RIF'd out of existence.  =
DOH!!  Mad scramble to back up data, transfer my account info, fix my =
ISP problem, etc etc, and here I am, back with you and currently =
un-employed in the Real World (tm).  Oh well, shouldn't take long to get =
another job here in the Silicon Valley.

Seeing as how I've got 2.750 messages in my inbox, it'll be a little bit =
before I can catch up.  If you sent something to me personally, I should =
get back to you within a day or two (I hope).  I'll probably refrain =
from my normal traffic on the list until I get caught up.

Best Regards,
Jesse DeGraff

p.s.  After this one, I don't think I'm EVER going on vacation =
again!!!!!

- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE98A5.E7553760
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>2,750 messages in my inbox after a =
half hour=20
downloading them.&nbsp; Ouch.&nbsp; This is gonna' take awhile.&nbsp; =
Sorry for=20
being MIA for almost two weeks.&nbsp; I took a little vacation, during =
which my=20
notebook crapped out the first day (that's what my e-mail was on).&nbsp; =
Then,=20
when I got back from vacation, I found out my department had been RIF'd =
out of=20
existence.&nbsp; DOH!!&nbsp; Mad scramble to back up data, transfer my =
account=20
info, fix my ISP problem, etc etc, and here I am, back with you and =
currently=20
un-employed in the Real World (tm).&nbsp; Oh well, shouldn't take long =
to get=20
another job here in the Silicon Valley.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Seeing as how I've got 2.750 =
messages in my=20
inbox, it'll be a little bit before I can catch up.&nbsp; If you sent =
something=20
to me personally, I should get back to you within a day or two (I =
hope).&nbsp;=20
I'll probably refrain from my normal traffic on the list until I get =
caught=20
up.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Best Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jesse DeGraff</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>p.s.&nbsp; After this one, I don't =
think I'm=20
EVER going on vacation again!!!!!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE98A5.E7553760--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 10:17:51 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: World Maps

>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Two Questions
>
>Hmm, talking about something that will alow a person to determin what a map 
>(the thing to trace into the plasic globe) will look like, rules for 
>determing the mountain ranges and coast lines and what not, or is that what 
>WTH does?
>- -Stephen

This is goanna sound *remarkably* unhelpful.

There is a website out there, somewhere among the terabytes of web data,
that lets you punch in hydrographics and some other data, and it does a
fractal map of the world.

I had it bookmarked at work, and then lost all my bookmarks when they
'upgraded' us to Win98.

I can vaguely remember a link to it from the THUDDD site.

Can anyone else help ?

The other option (for earthlike worlds) is to play Civ II for a bit, and
then switch to God mode.

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 10:25:17 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fleets

>From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Fleets
>
>Just a wee question, whereabouts does it say (if anywhere) that the 3I can
>utilise the military resources of member worlds in order to carry out a
>military venture ?  If they can do so, how far can they go ?  That is, can
>they say to a member "Ah, look, we'll just borrow a few thousand tons of
>shipping and a corps or two of armor and have them all back to you in, say,
>three months.  OK ?"
>
>One would assume that they would, 'for the good of the Imperium', but how
>much of a systems' military resources can the 3I requisition to conduct war ?

With an Imperial Warrant, the answer is Yes.

In practice, things will work slightly differently - they will presumably
not strip worlds of defenses and commercial shipping, as the 3I's wars tend
to last for some time, and production within the war is a signifigant part
of the effort.

You also dont want to piss off planetary governments too much for fear they
will surrender to the enemy rather than try and last out a sustained siege.

Payments for services rendered could also be a carrot - you pay for the few
thousand tons of shipping in cash, at War charter rates, and give the world
a 3 year tax holiday and some newly-minted Imperial Bonds in exchange for
the armour.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 16:29:04 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 08:28:56 -0700
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>>From: "Kurtis Rodgers" <kurtis@fastlane.net>
>>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
>...
>>What's with this dang rule, anyway?  =)  I know it violates canon, and I'm
>>sure this has been discussed before, but whats wrong with ruling (in a MyTU
>>kind of way) that J-fuel is burned continuously throughout the jump?  No
>>fuss, no muss.  Is there an undesirable causality chain here I'm missing?
>
>  It solves the drop tank "problem"; some people may see this as being wrong.
>OTOH, at this point I conclude that it would be something like the best idea.
>
>...
>>problems does this blatant heresy cause, oh great masters of jump economics?
>
>  Very little (AFAIK) except that the "J-fuel is burned for power" school
>returns
>us with a vengeance to the "why are J-drives better power supplies than power
>plants, and why do they require huge power plant inputs to operate" problem.

I pretty much agree.  The "drop tank" problem and the "why don't
you use jump-drive for power" preoblem are tightly linked.  All
the schemes for alternate uses of fuel are designed to get around
this problem.

I'm partial to the idea that to burn all that fuel
you need to do it while you are actually jumping (it act as a
heat sink, otherwise the power plant just melts down).  This
diverges the least from what appears to be the original vision
of what happens and so fits better with other effects (why lanthanum
grids/coils are important, why there is an energy signature, how
jump projectors work at higher TL's, etc.)

Other approaches (displacement mass, cooling, the one Kurtis mentions,
etc.) all also address the problem though (IMO) don't fit quite as
well with some of the other effects.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 16:30:55 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers

>Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:02:06 +0200 (METDST)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>David P. Summers writes:
>
>>...it doesn't make  sense for a fuel tank in a ship to cost nothing but for
>>it to suddenly be so expensive on its own.

>Drop tanks are cheaper than internal tankage.

Well, then the ship without internal tanks should have been cheaper.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:32:41 -0700
From: "Blood God" <bloodly@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: I'm BAAAaaaack!

On Fri, 7 May 1999 16:23:13    Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>2,750 messages in my inbox after a half hour downloading them.  Ouch.  This is gonna' take awhile.  >

How long could it take to just hold down the delete key?  heee... welcome back.

Blood
RPG Host - Free role-playing services!
http://www.rpghost.com



- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:36:50 -0700
From: "Blood God" <bloodly@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: World Maps

On Sat, 08 May 1999 10:17:51   Ian or Katts wrote:
>
>>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>>Subject: Re: Two Questions
>>
>>Hmm, talking about something that will alow a person to determin what a map 
>>(the thing to trace into the plasic globe) will look like, rules for 
>>determing the mountain ranges and coast lines and what not, or is that what 


There is a program that I found in RPG Host's Archives that actually generates an animated gif based on world data that you supply. Its damn cool for making globles.

There is a lot more there too! Check it out:

   http://www.rpghost.com

Blood
bloodly@my-dejanews.com



- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 16:42:40 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 

Fri, 07 May 1999 18:42:37 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Under CT rules, the drop tanks are used and ditched.  That's why they're
>*called* drop tanks.  They don't get reused, they float off into space / get
>pulled into the jump bubble / whatever, but the point is, they *can't* get
>reused cause they're *gone*.

They are "dropped".  The point of a jump station is that they
next ship comes along an reuses them.  You are assuming that
a ship has to buy them outright and loose them.

(Though it was interesting to see Steve's analysis with
high jump ships.  He was a bit terse, but it seems that
even if you do expend them, you can come put ahead).

  And the price of the internal tankage is taken
>into account with the cost of the hull under CT.  Effectively, it's zero,
>because the 100KCr/ton of the ship is the bracing, etc that a ship needs to
>survive Jump space, et. al.

The point here is where have the numbers for the cost of drop
tanks come from.  Sure you can post them arbitrarily high
just to make sure they are expensive, but that is just as
hard to swollow.

>> OK, my analysis under GT that I posted a few weeks back was vastly
>> different.  One reason may be the use of non-reusable drop tanks.
>
>That's cause you use GT.  I don't.

Well, it is true that all I'm interested in are the problems
they cause for GT.  If SJG's fixes them for GT I really don't
care if they are broken for other versions :-).

>OK, lemme try this again.  Internal tankage is already prefigured in when you
>design a hull.  It's part of the 100KCr/ton that the hull costs.  Drop tanks
>ain't part of the hull, so they're extra.  HG2 says they're 10KCr *plus*
>1KCr/ton of fuel carried.

But why?  This number seems to come out of the ether with no justification.

Suppose you make the ship small rather than add cargo when you take
out the internal tanks.  The cost savings from the internal tanks
should be comparable to the cost of the drop tanks (not even counting
the drop in jump drive costs).  When you then note that larger ships
are just as cost effective as smaller (if not more so) it just doesn't
make sense.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:40:05 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

>  If any of you have any similar anecdotes, of less-than-intelligent
>  things done by players, post 'em here!
>   >>
> 
>  In a combination Striker/Mercenary campaign I ran, a player flying a
> helicopter made a tree-top level run at an enemy laser emplacement and
> dropped a bomb from 20 meters,  too bad the bomb had a burst radius of 40
> meters.  At least he did destroy the laser before being made into french
> toast.

If he was doing at least 75 miles an hour (not a problem for combat 
choppers) and gravity was Earth standard, he should have been 
outside the blast radius (give or take).  What did he do, hover 
around and watch to see if it went off?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 16:49:18 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

>Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:48:53 -0400
>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> I posted an analysis under GT where a minor system had to have a
>> ship waiting around at the port, follow it out to the jump
>> point, give it fuel, and come back.  In such a case if you
>> got more than about a couple of Free Traders a week, you came
>> out ahead.  As volume increases, you get economies of scale and
>> can start doing things like just "throwing" large chunks of ice
>> in from the out system and "catching" them at the 100 diam limit
>> of the main world.

>You're gonna throw ice chunks out at a ship at the 100 diameter limit.  OK,
>the ice is moving.  It's a *BIG* chunk.  So the target ship has to match
>vectors with the chunk.  Too slow, and it takes too long for the chunk to get
>there and you have to schedule the toss a couple weeks in advance.

I'm not talking about the "ship" catching it.  I'm saying for
high traffic stations (and note: we are looking at why drop
tanks would be even cheaper at high volumes, if you don't buy
this, the previous issues remain) have ways.  At TL 15 stopping
a chunk of ice isn't that big a deal.  It could have thrusters
strapped on it and slows down as it gets close.

>> >Before people start saying:
>> >
>> >"there's *too much* trade in system X for fuelling stations to be viable"
>> >
>> >Would they first consider how all the merchants were planning to refuel
>> >without the fuelling stations. Personally, I reckon the large trade volumes
>> >are done by big unstreamlined freighters operating out of the highport.
>> >
>> >If this is true, someone has to get the fuel to the highport,
>> >someone has to take the goods down to the planet.
>
>IIRC, the figure is on the order of 100Cr/ton to & from the high port.  Can't
>remember for the life of me where I saw this though.

Far Trader lists fuel prices as being being 100Cr/ton higher
at the 100 diam limit.  This presumably is for fairly high
traffic systems.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:56:33 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Patrol Cruiser

I just completed a GURPs version of the Patrol Cruiser w/deckplans.

http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Trenchant.html

As always, comments are welcome/desired.

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:51:33 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Military

At 05:42 PM 5/7/99 -0400, Dave Nelson  wrote:
>
>	Isn't there also a breakdown of army troop battalions in the MT 
>Referee's Companion?

There is one in the Rebellion Sourcebook.  Habitable worlds (atmos 5,6,8)
of TTL 9-13 have  10 - 15 battalions per million population.  Divide that
by 10 for non-habitable worlds.  Personally, I think this is a bit high for
worlds in the Imperium, unless they are on the border, balkanized, or need
a security force to keep their own citizens in check.


Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:52:11 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

In a game I ran the party of seven characters had been cornered by a group of
large aliens I had created for the game.  They knew these aliens were honest to
a fault and had been told they would not be harmed if they surrendered now.

They being covered by several energy weapons and large slug throwers any one of
which could have killed the entire group.  However one party member decided to
die trying to get away instead of be captured.  He drew his his small auto
pistol (Which had already proven a useless weapon against them) and fired at
the nearest one.

The resulting fire fight cost the lives of five of the other six party
members.  The instigator of the mess survived and was later hunted down by the
24 year marine veteran that also survived.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:21:03 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

At 07:50 AM 5/7/1999 -0600, Glenn St-Germain wrote:
>If any of you have any similar anecdotes, of less-than-intelligent
>things done by players, post 'em here!

In one game I was in, we had one player who always insisted on being a 
gunbunny.  During the course of our adventures he got shot up pretty bad, 
and decided to go for cyberware.  Well he didn't have enough money to get 
all the armor and stuff that he wanted, so the rest of the party all 
chipped in.  For the next few adventures (until he was finally killed), 
whenever we got in a fight, the bad guys always targeted him (our whole 
"aim"), while us normals took out the bad guys.

The next character he came up with was an assassin that had Jaunting 
(teleportation over parsecs).  On his first or second adventure with this 
character he killed somebody on one planet, and to avoid the authorities, 
he jaunted back to the last planet we were on and into the hotel room that 
he had used.  Ordinarily this would have been the perfect thing for this 
character to do, _IF_ he had paid for the room for several weeks in 
advance.  Unfortunately, he jumped into the room, surprising both the 
occupants and himself.  While dealing with his disorientation, he proceeded 
to get blown away.


Jimmy 
Simpson                                                 nimrodd@fastlane.net

"Most people don't act stupid; it's the real thing."
                                        --Alfred E. Neuman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 17:26:51 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: Re: Patrol Cruiser

Nice design Paul. I was wonder if anyone was going to put stats to one
of the most famous Classic Traveller ships. Everyone should copy this
ship to complete there GURPS: Traveller ship designs.

Paul Schirf wrote:

> I just completed a GURPs version of the Patrol Cruiser w/deckplans.
>
> http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Trenchant.html
>
> As always, comments are welcome/desired.
>
> Paul Schirf
> Paul@Schirf.com

Later,
- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only
one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley

DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter, it
may not be your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 20:28:41 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

In a message dated 5/7/99 7:48:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
felix@felixcafe.com writes:

<< 
 If he was doing at least 75 miles an hour (not a problem for combat 
 choppers) and gravity was Earth standard, he should have been 
 outside the blast radius (give or take).  What did he do, hover 
 around and watch to see if it went off?
  >>

	As a matter of fact, yes.     He had basically popped up over a hill 
behind which he had been hiding, moved slowly forward and dropped the bomb.  
He had waited until the laser was trying to shoot at some infantry and then 
popped up moved and dropped, figuring there was no other AA assests in the 
enemy force and he would be safe once the laser was gone.

		Dave Nelson   

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:58:19 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Fleets

> From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
 
> Just a wee question, whereabouts does it say (if anywhere) that the 3I can
> utilise the military resources of member worlds in order to carry out a
> military venture ?  If they can do so, how far can they go ?  That is, can
> they say to a member "Ah, look, we'll just borrow a few thousand tons of
> shipping and a corps or two of armor and have them all back to you in, say,
> three months.  OK ?"
> 
> One would assume that they would, 'for the good of the Imperium', but how
> much of a systems' military resources can the 3I requisition to conduct war
> ?

In answer to your last question:  All.
In answer to your first question:  I don't think it's explicitly stated
in canon, but it certainly makes sense, in light of what we know about
the Imperium, to expect that part of the price of membership is Imperial
utilization of your military and other resources if necessary.  The
benefit you're getting, after all, is that you don't have to learn
telepathy or stop eating beef.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:55:08 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Patrol Cruiser

From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: Re: Patrol Cruiser


>Nice design Paul. I was wonder if anyone was going to put stats to one
>of the most famous Classic Traveller ships. Everyone should copy this
>ship to complete there GURPS: Traveller ship designs.
>
>Paul Schirf wrote:


    Or MT, or CT, or TNE, or T4.  One of my favorite ships, ever.  Great
work.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 17:05:53 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Disposal of .....

> From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Disposal of .....

> >But teeth *are* a problem. One of the harder things to get rid of. Leonard
> >Erickson
> 
> No, just put them in glass of Coca-Cola overnight. That dissolves them 
> nicely (I think that it is the phosphoric acid that does it). Itried this 
> many years ago and it worked.

I'd be careful about making admissions like that ("I tried this many
years ago and it worked") on a permanent record like this.  You know,
most American jurisdictions (at least) don't have a statute of
limitations on murder.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:18:49 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Traveller Theme

Not a problem.  As long as proper credit is listed, blah blah blah....

Actually, I'd love to see it!!!!

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Smart, David J
> (David)
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 1999 1:53 PM
> To: 'traveller@mpgn.com'
> Subject: Traveller Theme
> 
> 
> I'm trying to find/build a Win95/98 theme for Traveller.
> Has anyone done this? If not, does anyone know where
> I can get decent freeware software for building icons?
> 
> Yo, Jesse,
> 
> Would you mind terribly if I used one or two of your
> postings from your "Patinir Belt" site for the wallpaper?
> I give you my word I won't make a cent off the theme and
> I *will* most definitely sing your praises in the
> theme's accompanying text file in the hopes of drumming
> up some business for you.
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:18:51 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: FW: Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_033F_01BE98B6.0EBEAEC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

A link from one of our old "friends"....



Jesse, if you could forward this to the Traveller List...

 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw.htm

- ------=_NextPart_000_033F_01BE98B6.0EBEAEC0
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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	filename="Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW).url"

[DEFAULT]
BASEURL=http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw.htm

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw.htm
Modified=A0467391E98DBE011F

- ------=_NextPart_000_033F_01BE98B6.0EBEAEC0--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #583
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest         Friday, May 7 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 584



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

ATTN: Loren Wisemen Cargo sizes?
RE: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
RE: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)
[none]
Re: 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Fun with nukes
Re: High Guard 2nd Errata question
Re: World Maps
Re: GT space combat questions
RE: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne 
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: GT space combat questions
Re: ATTN: Loren Wisemen Cargo sizes?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:20:06 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: ATTN: Loren Wisemen Cargo sizes?

Greetings Loren Wiseman,
A friend of mine has just started to transfer his Space game to
Traveller, and in the basic rules on page 122 of the GURPS: TRAVELLER
book, we could not figure how a merchant ship would survive on such
little cargo tonnage. Most of the time a 200 ton merchant would not be
able to fill his cargo, and god help you if you have the 400 ton
subsidized mechant. Are we doing something wrong?

Thanks,
- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only
one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley

DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter, it
may not be your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:29:01 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions

Well, I'm bouncing around in my inbox a bit, so I didn't see the origin of
this thread yet.  I can, however, give you a little bit o' info.  Loren is
the one who sets up the artwork for the books.  I don't think the authors
have any individual control over what's done or not.  If the author of
"Starships" wants to get ahold of me and keep me in the loop with what
they're writing, I can anticipate that and work on models in my off time
from current contracts.

Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Juliean Galak
> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 4:12 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
>
>
> At 12:49 AM 4/29/99 +0200, you wrote:
> >At 15:30 28.04.99 -0600, you wrote:
> >>I have been awarded the contract for GT: Starships, the sourcebook for
> >>starships of all kinds in GURPS Traveller.
> >Please do us all a favor:
> >1) Go out, get T4 : Starships.
> >2) Look at it over and over again.
> >3) Now you know what NOT to do, write the book.
> >
> >Seriously, try to base the book more on MTs SOM by DGP in style.
> >
> >-Describe a ship in detail (please include length in the description,
> >i always hated guessing that one bit of information), more in
> text than in
> >tables.
> >I would wish for it to be a good read rather than a reference book
> >(although making it
> >both wouldnt hurt)
>
> And on that note, please have lot's and lot's of pictures.  All sorts of
> them.  Deckplans, rendered shots (No amount of Jesse DeGraff's art is too
> much...) line drawings, whatever.  I'd really like to see at least one
> exterior shot and one set of deckplans for each ship.
>
> The way I game, a ship description with no illustration is almost useless.
> I like to be able to show my players what the vehicle looks like.
>
> Oh, and I agree with everything that Volker said... :)
>
>           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
> 	     Gearhead-in-Training
>
> --
> Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
> IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+)
> 	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but
> I will
>                          defend to the death your right to say
> it."
>                                              -- Francois Marie
> Voltaire
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than
> knowledge"
>                          			     -- Albert
> Einstein
> for PGP public-key and
>
> more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
> WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:29:03 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions

Actually, I'm doing the "Starports" cover currently.  Whether or Loren wants
me to do "Starships" that's up to him (I'm game).

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Steve Daniels
> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 8:38 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: GT: Starships -- Call for Submissions
>
>
>
>
> Juliean Galak wrote:
>
> > And on that note, please have lot's and lot's of pictures.  All sorts of
> > them.  Deckplans, rendered shots (No amount of Jesse DeGraff's
> art is too
> > much...) line drawings, whatever.  I'd really like to see at least one
> > exterior shot and one set of deckplans for each ship.
>
> OOOoooohhh!  Color plates! Color Plates!
>
> At the very least, Jesse needs the cover.
> Loren, if you're listening, we need a full color Jesse cover!
>
> Only thing I can think of is it might be useful to use an appendix,
> similar to the one in 101 Starships, that shows the details on a
> ship's creation so that you can see it matches the rules.
> --
> Bloo
> Resounding Technology
> Creators of RogerWilco
> http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 21:42:00 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)

At 07:52 PM 5/7/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Anybody else have some stupid PC tricks?

Well, since AD&D has been brought up, here's two:

The mage letting off a shocking grasp (electric attack - travels through
conductors) in an all-steel vault....


In one adventure I ran, the PCs needed to investigate a general goods store
that had underworld connections.  Naturally, a certain amount of boobytraps
are do be expected.  After much deliberation, the PCs settled on breaking
down the front door.  The two warriors knocked it down in one pass, only to
be hit by a pair of crossbows mounted on the ceiling and set to the door.
After searching the front room, they decided to investigate the back room.
Again, they broke down the locked door, and, you guessed it, got hit by two
more crossbow bolts.  So the PCs learned their lesson.  In the back room
they spent about 2 hours (in game) carefully opening the 35 chests and two
wardrobes with ropes, poles, and hooks.  None of them were trapped.  None
of them had anything interesting.  Finally, they discovered a trapdoor in
the bottom of one of the wardrobes.  Which they opened, promptly setting
off a fireball trap.   Those 2 traps were written in before the session, I
didn't make them up on the fly... :)

Sorry for the OT, but it is amusing...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:58:34 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: [none]

help
end

- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only
one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley

DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter, it
may not be your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:05:10 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: Re: 

Ooops!

Mike Wittek wrote:

> help
> end
>
> --
> Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
> mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
>      "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only
> one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
> get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley
>
> DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
> be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter, it
> may not be your opinion, but deal with it.

- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only one
even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people get what
they deserve."   --Zena Marley

DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not be
the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter, it may
not be your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 22:10:21 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 09:21 PM 5/7/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Of course you did.  The virus as discribed is bunk!.
>

<snip>

>
>Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
>to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
>the operater.  TL will not change this.

<snip more along the same lines>

TL will change it.  Just like I don't expect to be able to understand how
jump drives, contragravity, and reactionless thrusters work, I don't expect
to understand how GTL12  (or for that matter GTL9) computers work.  They
might be neural net, they might be biological, or they might be something
entirely different.  

There probably will be a difference between data and code, but even that's
not certain.  I am sure that things like assembly level instructions,
optimizing compilers, and clock cycles will no longer exist.  I don't know
what will, but it's going to be _totally_ different.  At best, using a
computer will be similar, but even that's not certain.  The point is, more
than two GTLs into the future, we can't be certain about _any_ assumptions.
 If things happen to work the same, fine, great, we can use out
perceptions.  However, if it's not the same, all we can go by is the
description of the _effect_ that is in the rulebook.  So if TNE says that
virus can infect computers in certain ways, then it can.  Period.  

Of course, in YTU, maybe GTL12 computers are just faster GTL7 computers,
and in that case you are right.  However, nothing I've seen in the OTU
leads me to believe this is true.  

BTW, I have written plenty of assembly code, and I understand what you say.
 It's absolutely true for any computer that works the same way as a GTL7
computer.  But that's it.

As an example (this isn't true in Traveller, this is something out of RL)
we already have theories about computers that violate all our assumptions.
One assumption that CS has is that certain problems are NP-complete.  No
possible variation in coding technique that we've ever discovered, no
advance in computer speed, no improvement of our existing machines can
change this (yes I know.  this isn't proven.  However, it is a standard
assumption in CS).  OTOH, the new nanotech breakthroughs have led many
people to believe that using quantum computers, these problems can be
solved in polynomial time.  This isn't just a different faster way of doing
things.  It's something _totally different_.  And that's only GTL8, not
even GTL12....



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:44:20 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

At 12:49 PM 5/7/99 -0700, Brannon W. Boren wrote:
>
>
>And say "sayonara" to one Mr. M. Mouse... FOOM!
>
>(now *that* is how to spend a Friday afternoon)
>

Funny you should say that, Brannon. On the very day in question I WAS
working on the roof of a new building right at ground zero. I can now thank
you for the really wretched sunburn I have.
 ;->

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 22:12:42 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: High Guard 2nd Errata question

At 05:23 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 5/7/99 12:52:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>ian@vax2.concordia.ca writes:
>
><< Juliean Galak writes:
> "I just got a copy of HG2, and on page 23, a previous owner 
> drew in an arrow switching the "Maneuver" and "Jump" labels 
> on the "drive potential table." Is this an official errata?  
> an un-official errata?  just a house rule? If it's errata, 
> is there a source for CT errata on the web somewhere (all I
> can find is T4 errata)?"
> 
> 	Jump drives become available at TL 9 and, IIRC, take 
> 	up more tonnage than equivalent Maneuver drives. >>
>
>I've always played it the way it's in the book...

Well here's the table as printed in the book.:

Drive Potential Table
		Drive number
		1	2	3	4	5	6
Maneuver	2	5	8	11	14	17
Jump		2	3	4	5	6	7

The correction has the labels reversed...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 22:20:51 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: World Maps

At 10:17 AM 5/8/99 +1100, you wrote:
>The other option (for earthlike worlds) is to play Civ II for a bit, and
>then switch to God mode.

Or just use the civ II world editor...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:28:27 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GT space combat questions

The PD rating is passive defense and used when dodging....I believe that the 
armor divisor is the bracketed number in parentheses on GT page 173...Like 2 
or (!)...
mike


>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: GT space combat questions
>Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:15:48 EDT
>
>To the list:
>
>I'm converting a HG design into GT, and I have some questions. Spinal 
>mounts
>do max damage of 60,000 DR, correct? If so; would that mean I would need
>enough meson screen modules to negate 60,000 DR? As for a PAW spinal mount
>hit, what amount of armor would I need? I know I've got to stop 60,000 DR,
>but pg. 168 says: " subtract target DR (modified by armor divisior)". What 
>is
>the armor divisor? Is that the PD rating of 4? Does this mean that the
>attacking 60,000 DR PAW shot is divided down to 15,000 DR, so I just need
>armor that has a Dr of 15,000?
>
>Seth


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:49:50 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne 

May have been answered as I'm way behind, but the book was "Mirrorshades", a
series of shorts by the cyberpunk king, William Gibson.

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Keven R. Pittsinger
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 6:11 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne
>
>
> > At 05:58 PM 4/20/99 +0100, you wrote:
> >
> > >I think you are correct. What happens to the others that don't ? Do the
> > >Imperial just come in and say "This system is now Imperial
> Terratry." and
> > deny
> > >them access to Space ? The Imperium rules the space between
> the worlds ...
> > >What are peoples thoughts ?
> >
> > The Imperium probably charges them an arm and a leg in tarriffs.
> >
> > For a large, prosperous nation, that's bearable (sse the discussion on
> > cutting off trade to a world for more details.)  For example,
> if the Little
> > Green Men came down today, and offered us membership in the Galactic
> > People's Revolutionary Collective, the United States could
> probably exist
> > without the offworld trade.
>
> Until the first nation on Earth bought some advanced technology
> that puts everything we've got now in the Stone Age.  We're about
> TL8 (CT, not GURPS), think what would happen if some TL15 toys
> started coming onto the market.
>
> There was a story about the culture shock of a high tech society
> exporting 'toys' to a lower tech society called 'Mozart In
> Mirrorshades'.  Can't remember what book it was in, though.
>
> Keven
>
> tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>
> Science-Fiction Adventure
>                                                      In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 22:51:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 

> Fri, 07 May 1999 18:42:37 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Under CT rules, the drop tanks are used and ditched.  That's why they're
> >*called* drop tanks.  They don't get reused, they float off into space / get
> >pulled into the jump bubble / whatever, but the point is, they *can't* get
> >reused cause they're *gone*.
> 
> They are "dropped".  The point of a jump station is that they
> next ship comes along an reuses them.  You are assuming that
> a ship has to buy them outright and loose them.

It sounds like *you're* assuming they're indestructible.  They're not.  
They're actually very fragile.
 
> (Though it was interesting to see Steve's analysis with
> high jump ships.  He was a bit terse, but it seems that
> even if you do expend them, you can come put ahead).

How so?

> >And the price of the internal tankage is taken
> >into account with the cost of the hull under CT.  Effectively, it's zero,
> >because the 100KCr/ton of the ship is the bracing, etc that a ship needs to
> >survive Jump space, et. al.
> 
> The point here is where have the numbers for the cost of drop
> tanks come from.  Sure you can post them arbitrarily high
> just to make sure they are expensive, but that is just as
> hard to swollow.

The numbers come straight from High Guard 2nd Edition, pg 27 paragraph 5.  I 
directly quote the source:

"Disposable fuel tanks may be added to the ship to increase its range.  These 
L-Hyd Tanks are fitted to the outside of the ship and drop away before jump.  
The result is more interior space availiable for cargo and passengers.  Such 
tanks must be replaced each time they are used, so they are practical only on 
runs to civilised areas, or to increase fuel capacity to allow several jumps.  
L-Hyd tanks are installed outside the hull, and increase the total tonnage of 
the ship; drives are reduced in their efficiency based on the total tonnage of 
the ship.  With tanks retained, efficiency is decreased, and jump capability 
is reduced; when the tanks drop away, tonnage is reduced, and the drive 
efficiency is increased.  L-Hyd Tanks cost Cr10,000 plus Cr1,000 per ton of 
fuel carried."

This means an 80 ton drop tank for the 400 ton Munchkin Class freighter is 
90,000 credits.  10,000 + 80,000.  This is by the rules.  So where are you 
getting the idea that I was posting arbitrarily high numbers just to make sure 
they're expensive?
 
> >> OK, my analysis under GT that I posted a few weeks back was vastly
> >> different.  One reason may be the use of non-reusable drop tanks.
> >
> >That's cause you use GT.  I don't.
> 
> Well, it is true that all I'm interested in are the problems
> they cause for GT.  If SJG's fixes them for GT I really don't
> care if they are broken for other versions :-).

Just like I don't really care what GURPS breaks, cause I ain't stuck having to 
come up with a fix.
 
> >OK, lemme try this again.  Internal tankage is already prefigured in when you
> >design a hull.  It's part of the 100KCr/ton that the hull costs.  Drop tanks
> >ain't part of the hull, so they're extra.  HG2 says they're 10KCr *plus*
> >1KCr/ton of fuel carried.
> 
> But why?  This number seems to come out of the ether with no justification.

Because it's in the *rules*.

> Suppose you make the ship small rather than add cargo when you take
> out the internal tanks.  The cost savings from the internal tanks
> should be comparable to the cost of the drop tanks (not even counting
> the drop in jump drive costs).  When you then note that larger ships
> are just as cost effective as smaller (if not more so) it just doesn't
> make sense.

From High Guard, pg 22, paragraph 8:

"Fuel:  A ship requires fuel for its jump drives and for its power plant; the 
power plant convrts fuel to energy for computers, jump drives, manuver drives, 
weapons, and screens.  Fuel tankage must be sufficient to contain a full load 
for the power plant and the jump drive.  Additional tankage may be installed 
as an option.  There is no cost for interior fuel tankage."

BTW, this paragraph flat out says that while it may be *possible* to design 
and build a ship that uses drop tanks for all jump fuel, it certainly ain't 
*legal* by the rules.  And yes, the Gazelle *is* compliant in that it is 
designed for Jump 4 performance *with* the tanks retained.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 22:56:08 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> >You're gonna throw ice chunks out at a ship at the 100 diameter limit.  OK,
> >the ice is moving.  It's a *BIG* chunk.  So the target ship has to match
> >vectors with the chunk.  Too slow, and it takes too long for the chunk to get
> >there and you have to schedule the toss a couple weeks in advance.
> 
> I'm not talking about the "ship" catching it.  I'm saying for
> high traffic stations (and note: we are looking at why drop
> tanks would be even cheaper at high volumes, if you don't buy
> this, the previous issues remain) have ways.  At TL 15 stopping
> a chunk of ice isn't that big a deal.  It could have thrusters
> strapped on it and slows down as it gets close.

E=mv.  Objects in motion remain in motion.  And if your thrusters fail *once* 
when that ice chunk is centered on that station, you're gonna whack that 
station out.

We'll discuss the energy needed to melt that ice and refine it into pure LHyd 
another time.
 
> >> >Before people start saying:
> >> >
> >> >"there's *too much* trade in system X for fuelling stations to be viable"
> >> >
> >> >Would they first consider how all the merchants were planning to refuel
> >> >without the fuelling stations. Personally, I reckon the large trade volumes
> >> >are done by big unstreamlined freighters operating out of the highport.
> >> >
> >> >If this is true, someone has to get the fuel to the highport,
> >> >someone has to take the goods down to the planet.
> >
> >IIRC, the figure is on the order of 100Cr/ton to & from the high port.  Can't
> >remember for the life of me where I saw this though.
> 
> Far Trader lists fuel prices as being being 100Cr/ton higher
> at the 100 diam limit.  This presumably is for fairly high
> traffic systems.

Toldja.  I don't 'do' GURPS.  But even so, it's *logical* that fuel would be more expensive further out from the primary because you have to pay to *ship* it.  Or at least, *somebody* does.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:17:46 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT space combat questions

- ----------
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: GT space combat questions
> Date: Friday, 07 May, 1999 7:15 PM
> 
> To the list:
> 
> I'm converting a HG design into GT, and I have some questions. Spinal
mounts 
> do max damage of 60,000 DR, correct?


No.  6d6*10,000, or a max of 360,000 damage.  That's damn near impossible
to protect against.  I'd settle for protecting against the mean damage
beyond 1/2Damage range, or about DR 90,000 as an absolute upper bound.  

As for a PAW spinal mount 
> hit, what amount of armor would I need? I know I've got to stop 60,000
DR, 
> but pg. 168 says: " subtract target DR (modified by armor divisior)".
What is 
> the armor divisor? 


It's the number in parens after the damage value. for PAWs its not given,
so assumed to be one.  lasers have a damage divisor of 2, which would make
spinal lasers a potentially good idea, but I think there's a max size limit
on lasers.

> Is that the PD rating of 4? 

PD is separate, it affects dodge not damage.  (check the last full
paragraph, left column pg. 168)

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 23:40:21 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Loren Wisemen Cargo sizes?

Mike Wittek wrote:

> Greetings Loren Wiseman,
> A friend of mine has just started to transfer his Space game to
> Traveller, and in the basic rules on page 122 of the GURPS: TRAVELLER
> book, we could not figure how a merchant ship would survive on such
> little cargo tonnage. Most of the time a 200 ton merchant would not be
> able to fill his cargo, and god help you if you have the 400 ton
> subsidized mechant. Are we doing something wrong?

Nope.  You can't make those trade rules work.

You need GT:FAR TRADER!  :-)

{/shameless plug}
- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #584
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 585



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Economics
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Science and Sanity
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)
Re: World Maps
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 
Re: Re : hair spray
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
(No Subject)
RE: World Maps
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue
Re: hair spray 
Re: Fleets
Re: bad leaders
Re: hair spray
Re: accidents will happen
Re: Modified Psionics for TNE
Re: Niven's Known Space species
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)
Re: Fun with nukes
"welded" drop tank numbers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:58:20 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

> << 
>  If he was doing at least 75 miles an hour (not a problem for combat
>  choppers) and gravity was Earth standard, he should have been outside the
>  blast radius (give or take).  What did he do, hover around and watch to
>  see if it went off?
>   >>
> 
>  As a matter of fact, yes.     He had basically popped up over a hill
> behind which he had been hiding, moved slowly forward and dropped the
> bomb.  He had waited until the laser was trying to shoot at some infantry
> and then popped up moved and dropped, figuring there was no other AA
> assests in the enemy force and he would be safe once the laser was gone.

Well, I only one word to say ... "Oops."


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 21:09:15 -0700
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Economics

Does anyone have suggestions about how to incorporate realistic pricing into the Traveller universe (CT,MT)? Book prices show an item and the TL at which it becomes available, but I've never found a formula for showing the effect of increasing TL's on the price, size, and weight. Striker had some very nice tables that showed size/wt decreases for a given item as TL increased, and I'm not enough of a economist to figure the various pricing variables for efficiency of manufacture/ distance from world of manufacture, TL difference, taxes and tariffs, etc. I know the trade rules cover a little of that for bulk cargoes, but how do some of you handle the price of everyday items IYTU? By standard book price? Handwave? WAG?
ALO



- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:11:19 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

In a message dated 99-05-07 20:03:06 EDT, you write:

<< In a game I ran the party of seven characters had been cornered by a group 
of
 large aliens I had created for the game.  They knew these aliens were honest 
to
 a fault and had been told they would not be harmed if they surrendered now.
 
 They being covered by several energy weapons and large slug throwers any one 
of
 which could have killed the entire group.  However one party member decided 
to
 die trying to get away instead of be captured.  He drew his his small auto
 pistol (Which had already proven a useless weapon against them) and fired at
 the nearest one.
 
 The resulting fire fight cost the lives of five of the other six party
 members.  The instigator of the mess survived and was later hunted down by 
the
 24 year marine veteran that also survived. >>

I would agree that it is dumb, but it migh also be very good (to a fault) 
RPGing, if the character was very scared and did not want to get captured.  
But any person that was in there right mind would not have done what he did.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 22:14:59 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity

>ObTrav:  What kinds of religions exist IYTU that 'most' locals think are
just a >fast scam?  What religions IYTU are considered to be 'real
religions'?  IMTU, the >Solomani Catholic Church, both branches (Orthodox &
Sylean), are thriving >propositions.  The major point of contention seems
to be whether or not St Elvis >did or did not shoot Nixon.  Another popular
church in Reavers' Deep is something I >swiped directly from Andy Keith --
the Church of the Future Man, straight outta his >'Rescue on Galatea'.

Most of the world's big religions are under a few thousand years old (there
are a few exceptions), so there's no telling what kind of religions there
will be in the 54th century (Solomani Calendar). So when I did my sector
writeup for the Traveller campaign I just started (GURPS, starting in the
year 1115), I created a few.

The First Church of Elvis has a major rivalry with the Church of the Second
Coming of Elvis. The former is based in Solomani space, the latter in the
Imperium. Adherence to the First Church is primarily within the Solomani
Sphere (both sides of the current Imperial/Solomani border), while the
Church of the Second is dominant farther to coreward.

I have established a planet in the Dagudashaag sector as the home of
the Brotherhood Of The Sun. Members of the clergy and the administrative
staff of the church wear yellow from head to toe, all day, every day.
Other adherents simply wear something yellow among their clothing -- a
shirt, a hat, or socks... 

Obviously, this is a topic that I treat with more irreverance than
reverance. But to give you an idea of the extent of the depths to which
I am able to sink: in the Dagudashaag Sector is the Khandi subsector
(subsector G -- this comes straight from the map in the Galactic mapping
software). On the planet Khandi itself, I have established it as the
headquarters of Khandi Confections, Inc., a corporation which distributes
confections and other goodies sector-wide. Its "mascot" is known throughout
the sector and in some neighbouring sectors as a friendly face, and has
even been immortalized in a song whose title is his name: The Khandi Man.

(ducking tomatoes...)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 22:41:23 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)

>Well, since AD&D has been brought up, here's two:

And one more, since AD&D was mentioned. And this one was something I
myself did. (I started the original thread, so I might as well own up
to one of the dumbest things I've done in a game.)

The party had been hired by a rich nobleman by the name of Rashid (or
something like that). I was playing a half-elven fighter/mage with a
warped sense of humour. When the noble introduced himself as "Rashid",
I blurted out "What'd he say his name was? Rat shit?" One of Rashid's
guards fired an arrow at my character as a warning to show some respect.
(Hey, he was wearing armour.) I responded by firing a magic-missile 
spell back at the guard. This exchange quickly degenerated into a free-
for-all between the PC party and Rashid's guards & henchmen, a battle
which we ultimately won (trashing the place in the process). Needless to
say, Rashid decided not to hire us after all... (and the GM had to think 
quickly of something else to put the PCs through...)

(This was the same character who noted that a Decanter of Endless Water
had a very strong backblast when activated to its strongest setting. So
he strapped the decanter to the back of his armor, upside-down and corked,
cast "Levitate" on himself, rose into the air, opened the Decanter, and
turned it on full blast. Yes, it worked: he was flying. Two problems: there
was no way to steer, and the rest of the party, watching from the ground,
got a serious soaking...)

This collection of stories would make a great web site somewhere. (I
particularly like the one where the players decided to drop a cargo-hold
full of water onto the warehouse... though I don't recognize the adventure.)

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:50:08 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: World Maps

In a message dated 99-05-07 19:29:40 EDT, you write:

<< 
 This is goanna sound *remarkably* unhelpful.
 
 There is a website out there, somewhere among the terabytes of web data,
 that lets you punch in hydrographics and some other data, and it does a
 fractal map of the world.
 
 I had it bookmarked at work, and then lost all my bookmarks when they
 'upgraded' us to Win98.
 
 I can vaguely remember a link to it from the THUDDD site.
 
 Can anyone else help ?
 
 The other option (for earthlike worlds) is to play Civ II for a bit, and
 then switch to God mode. >>

Thanks, if some one replied to this with a web page can the repost it, the 
del key is a little over active today.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:57:41 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 

In a message dated 99-05-07 18:38:59 EDT, you write:

<< ObTrav:  What kinds of religions exist IYTU that 'most' locals think are 
just a fast scam?  What religions IYTU are considered to be 'real religions'? 
 IMTU, the Solomani Catholic Church, both branches (Orthodox & Sylean), are 
thriving propositions.  The major point of contention seems to be whether or 
not St Elvis did or did not shoot Nixon.  Another popular church in Reavers' 
Deep is something I swiped directly from Andy Keith -- the Church of the 
Future Man, straight outta his 'Rescue on Galatea'. >>

What about the "listing" religion?  The one from the AHL game, that to me 
seems like an interesting divergence from the normal religions.  Has anyone 
done a campain with a person who subscibes to the Runic relgion?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:05:42 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re : hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-07 17:53:48 EDT, you write:

<< Speculation and lurid headlines about the evil land barons spraying
 poison on the migrant laborers appeared, until the autopsy revealed that
 they had cooked about a pound of a wild tobacco that they found growing
 in the ditch, thinking it was an edible green, and ate it with dinner.
 
 Instant heart attacks. The chemist who did the analysis on their meal
 said they had some 50-100 times the lethal dose per serving. >>

Well, if ONLY we were so lucky here.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:06:51 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

In a message dated 99-05-07 17:09:15 EDT, you write:

<< Well, considering there were no oceans of Kerosene or Gasoline around... >>

What about bonding hydorgen with something that makes it heaver than air?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 22:17:43 -0700
From: "Blood God" <bloodly@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: (No Subject)

You need to send mail to "majordomo@lists.mpgn.com" not to the mailing list name to get these commands to work...

Good luck,

Blood
RPG Host - Free role-playing services!
           http://www.rpghost.com


On Fri, 07 May 1999 18:58:34   Mike Wittek wrote:
>help
>end
>
>--
>Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
>mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
>     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only
>one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
>get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley
>
>DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
>be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter, it
>may not be your opinion, but deal with it.
>
>
>


- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:20:38 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: World Maps

Maybe when I can get my Favorites folder back from the ghost image of my old
notebook drive.  I'll give it a try tomorrow morning.  Think I'm going to
turn in for now.  Only 2,300 messages to go in my Inbox....

Jesse DeGraff
Back from vacation, RIF, and ISP problems...

www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
"Striving to Produce a Better (Illustrated) Traveller Universe"  (tm)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of SRKOALA@aol.com
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 1999 9:50 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: World Maps
>
>
> In a message dated 99-05-07 19:29:40 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
>  This is goanna sound *remarkably* unhelpful.
>
>  There is a website out there, somewhere among the terabytes of web data,
>  that lets you punch in hydrographics and some other data, and it does a
>  fractal map of the world.
>
>  I had it bookmarked at work, and then lost all my bookmarks when they
>  'upgraded' us to Win98.
>
>  I can vaguely remember a link to it from the THUDDD site.
>
>  Can anyone else help ?
>
>  The other option (for earthlike worlds) is to play Civ II for a bit, and
>  then switch to God mode. >>
>
> Thanks, if some one replied to this with a web page can the
> repost it, the
> del key is a little over active today.
> -Stephen
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:26:02 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

In a message dated 99-05-07 22:15:49 EDT, you write:

<< As an example (this isn't true in Traveller, this is something out of RL)
 we already have theories about computers that violate all our assumptions.
 One assumption that CS has is that certain problems are NP-complete.  No
 possible variation in coding technique that we've ever discovered, no
 advance in computer speed, no improvement of our existing machines can
 change this (yes I know.  this isn't proven.  However, it is a standard
 assumption in CS).  OTOH, the new nanotech breakthroughs have led many
 people to believe that using quantum computers, these problems can be
 solved in polynomial time.  This isn't just a different faster way of doing
 things.  It's something _totally different_.  And that's only GTL8, not
 even GTL12.... >>

Quantum computers, I heard something about it.  Something to do with a cup of 
water?  What about Nural computers?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:07:45 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 

Fri, 07 May 1999 22:51:13 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> They are "dropped".  The point of a jump station is that they
>> next ship comes along an reuses them.  You are assuming that
>> a ship has to buy them outright and loose them.

>It sounds like *you're* assuming they're indestructible.  They're not.
>They're actually very fragile.

I'm assuming they are as sturdy as tanks are today.  If they
are extraordinarly fragile, the question again is why?

>> (Though it was interesting to see Steve's analysis with
>> high jump ships.  He was a bit terse, but it seems that
>> even if you do expend them, you can come put ahead).

>How so?

I don't have it in from of me, but my reading of his summary
was that a high jump ship could come out ahead with disposable
drop tanks.  But if I read it wrong, then I'm sure he will
tell me....

>> The point here is where have the numbers for the cost of drop
>> tanks come from.  Sure you can post them arbitrarily high
>> just to make sure they are expensive, but that is just as
>> hard to swollow.

>The numbers come straight from High Guard 2nd Edition, pg 27 paragraph 5.  I
>directly quote the source:

Yes, if you want to take what is said in CT without question, then
yes, they work just like you say they do because CT says that is
what happens.  That is missing the point that it just doesn't make
sense.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:11:04 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Fri, 07 May 1999 22:56:08 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> I'm not talking about the "ship" catching it.  I'm saying for
>> high traffic stations (and note: we are looking at why drop
>> tanks would be even cheaper at high volumes, if you don't buy
>> this, the previous issues remain) have ways.  At TL 15 stopping
>> a chunk of ice isn't that big a deal.  It could have thrusters
>> strapped on it and slows down as it gets close.
>
>E=mv.  Objects in motion remain in motion.  And if your thrusters fail *once*
>when that ice chunk is centered on that station, you're gonna whack that
>station out.

You are assuming it has to be centered directly on the stations.
You wouldn't do it that way.

>> >IIRC, the figure is on the order of 100Cr/ton to & from the high port.
>>Can't
>> >remember for the life of me where I saw this though.
>>
>> Far Trader lists fuel prices as being being 100Cr/ton higher
>> at the 100 diam limit.  This presumably is for fairly high
>> traffic systems.
>
>Toldja.  I don't 'do' GURPS.  But even so, it's *logical* that fuel would
>be more expensive further out from the primary because you have to pay to
>*ship* it.  Or at least, *somebody* does.

You asked were it came from.  I told you.

Yes I think the extra cost is quite reasonable.  It also is
trivial for a drop tank ship.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 02:20:41 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 9:53 PM
Subject: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D) (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)


>Well, since AD&D has been brought up, here's two:
>
>The mage letting off a shocking grasp (electric attack - travels through
>conductors) in an all-steel vault....


I can top that one. In a campaign I played in several years ago our party
was in a sewer, waist-deep in water. We were fighting gators or crocs or
something mundane like that. Our mage panics and casts lightning bolt into
the crock infested water.

The very same mage screwed up many times in his choice of spells or magic
items.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 02:25:30 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

In a message dated 99-05-07 17:25:47 EDT, you write:

<< Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
 to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
 the operater.  TL will not change this. >>

This maybe a little off but how does the human brain do it?  We have 
"Programes" for pattern reconishing, ect and we have memories, how does the 
OS tell it apart?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 02:36:33 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue

Hi,
I'm writing a novel (at least the first three pages) and I would like the 
ancers to a few questions:
1) would something like thist fit into Traveller?  A slow boat ship is 
launched in 2017 and gets throwen across the galaxy by a wormhole (physisist, 
down, I have a way to take care of that minor technicality).  
2) How big would a Gene Bank be to hold 50K DNA Strands?
3) Were can I find the rules for how an Irish Brogue works, or should I start 
channel surfing for dialog with an Irish character in is?
4) Any ideas for characters? So far I only have a couple (the max is 178 new 
ones):
Jacob Kaylee: The leader of the colony project, not the best person for the 
job, will be taken care of.
Alex Tsing: The "rebel" colony leader, orginaly going to be the bad guy, but 
as the plot worked out he is going to be a much nicer character.
Siobhan O'Keefe: a security exspert, going to be a major player in what 
happens.
Devin Marshall: engineer, also going to be a major player in the future of 
what happens.
Conrad Walter: a SPEW operator, becomes involed in things after speaking 
agents Kaylee.

Araque III.  The 3rd planet around a F7 type star, .9Gs think: Mars.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 02:42:41 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray 

In a message dated 99-05-07 06:30:58 EDT, you write:

<< Not I.  All I have around here is a *lotta* CT stuff & some MT stuff. >>

then how about CT or MT?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 02:45:05 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fleets

In a message dated 99-05-07 07:22:25 EDT, you write:

<< >Maybe that is why the do have them, so that the Impies can move them?
 >- -Stephen
 
 Just a wee question, whereabouts does it say (if anywhere) that the 3I can
 utilise the military resources of member worlds in order to carry out a
 military venture ?  If they can do so, how far can they go ?  That is, can
 they say to a member "Ah, look, we'll just borrow a few thousand tons of
 shipping and a corps or two of armor and have them all back to you in, say,
 three months.  OK ?"
 
 One would assume that they would, 'for the good of the Imperium', but how
 much of a systems' military resources can the 3I requisition to conduct war 
? >>

As I don't have any of the Traveller books (there in the mail, or atleast the 
check) I don't know, as a reson for the ships to have jump drives it seems 
like a good one, the planets maybe companated for any loses.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 02:49:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: bad leaders

In a message dated 99-05-07 09:20:50 EDT, you write:

<< The nemesis for the characters in my old campaign was developed from an 
NPC 
 who wound up with Leader skill of 6 under MT rules. This combined with high 
 physical stats, SOC 10, ED 8, and INT of "ta-da" 3.  Drako, scion of an old 
 established family on Saurus/Vilis could always be counted on to inspire 
 those around him with his rugged good looks, charisma, and self assurance.  
 He was very successful in his inherited position as a major 
 landholder/rancher on a backwater agricultural world. Prior to the 5FW, he 
 rose to local prominance, gaining in prestige for his undying devotion to 
 Swordic principles and his ability to focus on the simple problems of ranch 
 life.  Unfortunately for the good citizens of Saurus, virtually every choice 
 that he had to make during the war (IMTU a vicious civil war on Saurus) 
wound 
 up causing more misery and chaos for them.  Every time he had a key 
military, 
 political, or economic decision to make, I'd roll for him applying his 
 skills.  The results were a string of outstanding successes wherever Leader 
 skill was appropriate, combined with a parade of blunders where other 
 critical skills were called for.  The key was that he was just so effective 
 at inspiring those around him.  The more things went bad as a result of his 
 choices, the better he did at leading his them to believe that with just a 
 little more of the same, things would turn around.  
 
 History is full of Drakos,  persuasive leaders who are adept at making 
 foolish, rash decisions, but nevertheless retain the loyal worship of their 
 followers.
 
 >>

That sounds just like what I was thinking of.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 02:53:06 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: hair spray

In a message dated 99-05-07 10:00:05 EDT, you write:

<< Correct. It is a species of pufferfish, which, when prepared correctly, is
 allegedly delicious, and prepared _in_correctly loaded with tetrodotoxin,
 (IIRC) which paralyzes you. Long time staple gimmick of murder mysteries.
 
 The mushrooms are _Amanita phalloides_, BTW, just popped into my head. A
 favorite of certain Borgias during the Rennaisance
  >>

I guess all of my years of learning stuff is starting to pay off:)  The 
Aminita phalliodes are Death Cap mushrooms (I think) there was a case of 
three kids trying to get high on them, the survived, with exstensive care at 
Stanford.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 03:06:57 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: accidents will happen

In a message dated 99-05-07 17:44:42 EDT, you write:

<< Actually, getting yourself killed with farm machinery is rather
 extraordinarily easy, one reason it's one of the most dangerous
 professions, in terms of per-worker death and injury. >>

Only if you do something stupid, sofar I have not (and I've had 15 years to 
do make a mistake).
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 03:12:57 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Modified Psionics for TNE

In a message dated 99-05-07 13:56:38 EDT, you write:

<< It's a psionic power in TNE that allows one to manipu-
 late a computer with your mind.
 
 Recovery of psi-points BTW is 2 per hour of rest and 6
 per hour of sleep as defined in the wilderness explor-
 ation section of TNE. >>

I could use that! 
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 03:16:02 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

In a message dated 99-05-07 14:10:05 EDT, you write:

<<   Has anyone actually done conversions of stuff from the Ringworld
 game to any version of Traveller? >>

HNoI and the other ship LB, would be interesting, how would you do the 
ramships?
- -Stephen
P.S. what about solar sails?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 03:26:39 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

In a message dated 99-05-07 14:23:48 EDT, you write:

<< It's not an "executable."  Stop thinking in TL8 (GTL7) terms.  Say that 
 computers don't operate like anything you're familiar with.  For one, they 
 have organic cores, and I doubt you have experience w/ them. >>

We sort of have exspearance with organic cores to find one just tap your 
head.  Note: Not everyone will beable to find an organic core this way:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 03:45:35 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)

In a message dated 99-05-07 16:57:51 EDT, you write:

<< I lurked there for a while because the chairman of the board of
 trustees at my law school's university represented the 'Church' of
 Scientology in some cases in which some of their secret documents
 had been posted to the web, and I was curious because I thought
 some of their legal practices were questionable. >>

Can you give details?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 03:47:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

In a message dated 99-05-07 17:11:11 EDT, you write:

<< So far, I've destroyed my home, Imperium Games, Ft. Benning Ga, my job, San
 Francisco Airport, and the main offices of the Dallas Cowboys. >>

What about Milosivich's house?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 01:13:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: "welded" drop tank numbers

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers
>
>David P. Summers writes:
>
>>...it doesn't make  sense for a fuel tank in a ship to cost nothing but for
>>it to suddenly be so expensive on its own.
>
>Drop tanks are cheaper than internal tankage. The cost of the internal
>tankage is the cost of that portion of the hull that they fill out. To
>convince yourself of that, simply design two ships: one with internal
>tankage and the same ship with no internal tankage and the equivalent
>drop tank tankage.

  Per post of 05/03 - note that the "savings" also increases with J#.

>  Here's the munchkinized C3 fast trader:
>                FM-2431131-000000-30000-0   MCr 127.47  200 tons  TL=12
>        Cargo=40. Passengers=8. LHyd=66. EP=6. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=4.
>
>  This affront to the gods has drop tanks installed but never uses them.
>(i.e., design is as an over-powered 140 Dt hull with 60 Dt tanks welded on)
>Thus, 60 Dt of the LHyd tankage is running at KCr 1.0 per ton rather than
>KCr 60. While the difference is small (~3%) on such an inefficient design it
>will be substantially greater on higher tech (lower PP multiplier), lower
>jump or larger designs (less influence on total cost from the computer or
>J-drive as appropriate).
>
>  Obviously, as has been mentioned before, if this is allowed then all
>current non-GT designs are "inefficient" for having failed to abuse this
>device. Ironically, if TCS had run events for economic performance we'd
>have seen this fixed by now.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #585
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 586



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Moving Chunks... (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks )
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 
Drop Tank Rules under CT
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: Moving Chunks... (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks ) 
Re: BD...
Re: hair spray...
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: lasers
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:50:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>Dom wrote:
>>Snapshot was for CT. ACQ is better ;-)
>
>Yeah, but *where* and *when* is it available??  :-)

I saw an edited draft laid out last weekend - I don't know if it's gone
back to Doug yet, but it did still have Penguins.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:55:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Systems was Re: Traveller Fanzines...

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>	I've heard tell that BITS is going to issue a Snapshot like
>supplement called At CLose Quarters (or something like that) for T4 in the
>near future, that might do the trick.

Yes, written by the TML's very own Inquistor Sniper General, Doug Berry.

'At Close Quarters' will be the next BITS publication. Having read it I
reckon it'd work for MT and CT, especially if you use the weapons stats in
it. It is designed for T4 though.


Assuming disaster doesn't strike.... :-/

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 01:15:13 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
...
>>   Please note that per TCS, p.14, the tanks themselves only cost KCr 80
>> per set; the extra KCr 10 in HG2 appears to be brackets on the ship.
>
>Per HG2, drop tanks are 10KCr + 1KCr per ton carried.  It's on pg 27.

  TCS preceded HG2?

...
>>  If both ships are guaranteed to lose money then is their "efficiency"
>>really important? With the basic CT KCr 1.0 ton/jump (or x2 month?) these
ships
>>don't prosper; did you run the numbers for 30-35 trips/year, and/or
partial carriage
>>of passengers. The price listed in undiscounted? As the stats listed above
>>indicate maximum revenue of 6% of unit price something is clearly wrong. Are
>>you assuming a modest premium for faster than J1 delivery?
>
>1.  Nope.  2.  Not yet.  And besides, the ships are optimised for *freight* 
>with no passenger space availiable.  3.  Correct.  The prices are for the lead 
>boat of the class.  4.  Huh?

 You don't feel that series (i.e., real) costs of the ship are useful in
analysis?
 4) shippers provide J2+ service for same cost as J1 IYTU?
 3) what do you believe is wrong?
 2) how do more accurate (& favourable) numbers work out?
 1) ??

>>   As indicated previously, disparities between vessel types are much more
>> pronounced at higher J#'s.
>
>I take that to mean, "it's a good way to go broke faster if you wanna slice
open your checking account's jugular vein and squeeze."

  Nope. Drop tanks work comparatively better at higher J#'s. I've forwarded
the post Mr. Summers referred you to.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 01:19:42 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

> From: AveNelso@aol.com
> In a combination Striker/Mercenary campaign I ran, a player flying a 
> helicopter made a tree-top level run at an enemy laser emplacement and 
> dropped a bomb from 20 meters,  too bad the bomb had a burst radius of 40 
> meters.  At least he did destroy the laser before being made into french 
> toast.

What do we think?  MCUF or go for the whole posthumous SEH?  Eh, glory
of the regiment and all that, wot?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 01:31:58 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Moving Chunks... (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks )

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>IIRC, the figure is on the order of 100Cr/ton to & from the high port.  Can't 
>remember for the life of me where I saw this though.

  Could be related to the identical charge for moving planetoids from the
outer system (or elsewhere) to the mainworld per HG2?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 01:32:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 
...
>(Though it was interesting to see Steve's analysis with
>high jump ships.  He was a bit terse, but it seems that
>even if you do expend them, you can come put ahead).

  Hey, it looked like the weather was clearing up to make for a nice jog.
I was wrong :(  What did I miss covering?

...
>Suppose you make the ship small rather than add cargo when you take
>out the internal tanks.  The cost savings from the internal tanks
>should be comparable to the cost of the drop tanks (not even counting
>the drop in jump drive costs).  When you then note that larger ships
>are just as cost effective as smaller (if not more so) it just doesn't
>make sense.

  AFAIK, if a ship gets run through HG2 the results follow the principle
above. It's basically the welded-droptank issue (see last para):
...
>                FM-A431142-070000-75000-0    MCr 418.00   1000 tons  TL=F
>        Cargo=357. Passengers=40. LHyd=330. EP=30. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=14.
>  Mortgage runs at MCr 16.72/year for the type, and a load of express cargo
>and high passengers at "normal" rates is MCr 26.53/year, or ~MCr 40 at +50%
>express rates. If some sections are middle passage stewards can be dropped.
>Armament is certainly adequate. A drop tank version would carry up to 300
>additional tons of cargo at an extra cost around KCr 1.0/ton. MCr 334.4 and
>86 weeks to construct in series.
>
>  The munchkinized welded-droptank version loses some hardpoints but gets
>a significant saving on costs for exploiting the absurd design glitch that
>drop tanks represent in this case - ~4.3% (MCr 17.7)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 01:55:57 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 
...
>I don't have it in from of me, but my reading of his summary
>was that a high jump ship could come out ahead with disposable
>drop tanks.  But if I read it wrong, then I'm sure he will tell me....

  First off, unlike the nutbars at FS <quick look about> the Planning Div
here at JumpExpressCo likes to back up its wild conjecture with plausible-
looking numbers - hence the NumberCrunch program which keeps randomized
business cases on file for emergency presentations:

>  Calculations are approximate - maintenance at 0.1%, wages, life support, 
>and fuel are ignored below. Cargo charge is low, as some portion of revenue
>is from passage charged at a similar premium.

DROP TANKS - includes cost of _disposable_ tanks in operating cost (& mortgage):
 Unit  Ops. Cost/a.  basic rev./a.  Premium  Cargo charge/Dt
 F6(i)  MCr 25.66      MCr  8.12     >216%     > Cr 3,160
 F6(d)  MCr 46.66      MCr 31.36      >49%     > Cr 1,490

  The above assumes that J1 (& J2?) ships at least really do charge KCr ~1.0
per Dt and stay in business. If so, then higher J# units would have to charge
something on the close order of the values above or they could not exist as
profitable business ventures. F-6i uses internal tankage only, thus the tiny
payload and very high _cost per unit capacity_. F6(d) uses drop tanks, and is
thus essentially unburdened by the widespread presumption that CT ships _must_
allocate 10% of their volume to L-Hyd per J# to be executed; the figures show
the increased basic (KCr 1.0/Dton) revenue and increased operating cost _which
assumes the destruction of expended drop tanks_!

  Unit cost per capacity with drop tank use is _halved_, _after extra costs_.

  Problems will arise if arguments occur as to whether customers will pay more
for service covering 6 parsecs/week compared to l or 2... 

...
>>The numbers come straight from High Guard 2nd Edition, pg 27 paragraph 5.  I
>>directly quote the source:
>
>Yes, if you want to take what is said in CT without question, then
>yes, they work just like you say they do because CT says that is
>what happens.  That is missing the point that it just doesn't make
>sense.

  Per TCS, "_the tanks themselves_* must also be purchased at a cost of
Cr 1000 per ton" - (* my emphasis).

        Steven Hudson

    ** JumpExpressCo - When Too Fast Is Never Enough!(tm) **

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 02:04:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Drop Tank Rules under CT

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed 
...
>BTW, this paragraph flat out says that while it may be *possible* to design 
>and build a ship that uses drop tanks for all jump fuel, it certainly ain't 
>*legal* by the rules.  And yes, the Gazelle *is* compliant in that it is 
>designed for Jump 4 performance *with* the tanks retained.

 Per A:5, TCS, p. 12, header: "The following rules clarifications are presented
to more carefully state some of the concepts of that (HG2) book". Same section,
p. 13, Fuel Tankage: "jump fuel and additional fuel (i.e. beyond that of the
power plant requirements, which _must_ be permanent internal tankage) may be
carried in one of the additional tankage types outlined below." Drop tanks are
the last of the four options, and are described in detail on p. 14.

  (all parenthetical comments are mine)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 05:09:03 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
> ...
> >>   Please note that per TCS, p.14, the tanks themselves only cost KCr 80
> >> per set; the extra KCr 10 in HG2 appears to be brackets on the ship.
> >
> >Per HG2, drop tanks are 10KCr + 1KCr per ton carried.  It's on pg 27.
> 
>   TCS preceded HG2?

Aint got a copy of TCS around anymore.  My HG2 book has a copyright date of 
1980.  It's 2nd Edition.  I think HG1 came out in '79.

> ...
> >>  If both ships are guaranteed to lose money then is their "efficiency"
> >>really important? With the basic CT KCr 1.0 ton/jump (or x2 month?) these
> ships
> >>don't prosper; did you run the numbers for 30-35 trips/year, and/or
> partial carriage
> >>of passengers. The price listed in undiscounted? As the stats listed above
> >>indicate maximum revenue of 6% of unit price something is clearly wrong. Are
> >>you assuming a modest premium for faster than J1 delivery?
> >
> >1.  Nope.  2.  Not yet.  And besides, the ships are optimised for *freight* 
> >with no passenger space availiable.  3.  Correct.  The prices are for the lead 
> >boat of the class.  4.  Huh?
> 
>  You don't feel that series (i.e., real) costs of the ship are useful in
> analysis?
>  4) shippers provide J2+ service for same cost as J1 IYTU?

Yeah.  Prices are for 1 jump.

>  3) what do you believe is wrong?

About what?

>  2) how do more accurate (& favourable) numbers work out?

Dammifiknow.  Define more accurate & favourable numbers.

>  1) ??

???

> >>   As indicated previously, disparities between vessel types are much more
> >> pronounced at higher J#'s.
> >
> >I take that to mean, "it's a good way to go broke faster if you wanna slice
> open your checking account's jugular vein and squeeze."
> 
>   Nope. Drop tanks work comparatively better at higher J#'s. I've forwarded
> the post Mr. Summers referred you to.

OK, but what are you basing your figures on?  I don't find *any* references in 
CT about charging more for higher jumps.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 05:10:35 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Moving Chunks... (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks ) 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >IIRC, the figure is on the order of 100Cr/ton to & from the high port.  Can't 
> >remember for the life of me where I saw this though.
> 
>   Could be related to the identical charge for moving planetoids from the
> outer system (or elsewhere) to the mainworld per HG2?

Could be, but I *know* I saw something about travel by commercial boat from 
the high port in orbit to the planetary surface, and it was 100 Cr/ton.  
People I think were 25Cr.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 19:29:27 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: BD...

- -----Original Message-----
From: SRKOALA@aol.com <SRKOALA@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, 6 May 1999 1:28
Subject: Re: BD


>In a message dated 99-05-05 03:51:32 EDT, you write:
>
><< You reckon?  I imagined the warrior creed was big and strong in the
Empire
> (it was in MTU, YKMV)!  BD was warrior's armour, it had two purposes, 1)
> Protect the wearer somewhat,and 2) Get covered in the enemies blood!
What's
> all this talk about taking Imperial troopies out of the battle?  Sheesh!
>>
>
>I guess it comes from applying to technology in the most practial form,
alto
>that tech would make wars much more common and just about nobody would get
>killed.
>-Stephen
>

How  uncivilised!  War without killing... why even bother with marines and
the army?  Tsk, tsk, tsk.  Nah!  IM's do need to get in amongst the
mayhem... it's tradition!  To paraphrase Homer Simpson, "Blood splattered
Battle Dress... Hmmmmmmm..."

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 19:49:14 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: hair spray...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, 7 May 1999 3:16
Subject: Re: hair spray


>SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> We are not nice people, are we?  What about spiders (black widows), ect?
>> -Stephen
>
>Despite their fearsome reputation, Black Widows aren't particularly
>dangerous.
>
>There are deadlier spiders though,
>
> <cue Steve Irwin impersonation> " 'Ere in Australia, we 'ave some
>spiders that are the deadliest, most poisonous in the world...watch me
>as I piss one off!"
>

FOMCROTFLMSAO*  Bruce!  You sound just like him!!!!!
(*For the hard of cyfering:
FallOffMyChairRollingOnTheFloorLaughingMySillyArseOff)



- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:22:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

In mail you write:

>>If any of you have any similar anecdotes, of less-than-intelligent
>>things done by players, post 'em here!

First off, let me state that I was innocently hacking away on my old
TRS-80, while the Traveller groups my roomies were hosting in the
living room played.

One night, they were have a *large battle, and they came over and asked
me for help in calculating just what had happened. 

They'd built a *lot* of ships, severely abusing things like Zuchai
crystals and black globe availability. During the battle, they
overloaded the black globe on their "flagship". They weren't sure how
much damage would ensue. 

I sat down and calculated the amount of energy it would have taken,
plus how much they had in "secondary" storage (the crystals/jump
capacitors they were using to allow higher rates of fire from weapons).
And after a few quick calculations, I also asked how much LH2 was
aboard the ship. 

As soon as I got a first approximation, I asked for data on the
positions of of all the ships, and what *they* had on board. This was
because I figured there was no way that at least *some* of the nearby
ships wouldn't get included in the blast.

Turned out that their formations were ridiculously tight.

By the time I finished adding things up and looking up references on
thjings like weapons effects, I had to tell them that not only had both
fleets been destroyed, but that they'd done severe damage to the planet
they were orbiting!

After some discussion, it was decided to rule that the atmosphere had
gone from "normal" to "thin, tainted", with a *big* drop in
hydrosphere, and the essential destruction of *everything* on the side
of the planet the blast occured over (my initial calculations gave a
*crater* around a 1000 km across on this size 8 world). 

This turned what *had* been a nasty corporate war into the Imperium
putting out warrants for *everyone* employed by *both* corps. 

ps. it *really* broke my heart to have these "munchkins" get hoist by
their own petard *literally*. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:41:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

In mail you write:

> The group's wizard used fireballs on the bandits in the woods...

A wizard in our party threw a fireball in a 10' corridor. Targeted at
the ochre jelly swarming up his legs. *He* survived. Half the party
didn't. 

> The group's 'demolitions expert' (skill-0) used 5 pounds of C4 to 'open' a
> wall safe...

"Think you used enough dynamite, Sundance?" :-)

> One PC in AD&D uses a wand of wonder on a gelatinous cube coming through the
> only door in the room.  He roled on the effects table and got 'turn target
> to stone'.  The entire party died of suffication.

We had a small army wandering in the wilderness. The DM had a huge,
ancient red dragon using its breath weapon to "strafe" us. On the
second pass we put enough arrows, bolts, spells and what-have-you into
the air to kill it. While it was in a dive aimed at the center of the
group... Oops! We took more damage from the dragon falling out of the
sky than from the first breath weapon pass!

Note that the above scenario works well in any game where air attacks
can happen. :-)

The "castle" they were exploring my *old* D&D campaign was built on top
of a mothballed fort left behind by high tech visitors long, long ago.
They were *determined* to get past the barriers keeping them out of the
"fort" sections (stasis fields). A couple *almost* decided to try
teleporting in. But finally, they tried to "blast" their way in. 

They "woke up" the battle computer enough to trigger a "low level"
automated response. It destroyed the seige engines, then started
clearing the "cover" (old growth forest). And then it spotted the
"shielding" they'd been watching from behind as their "hirelings" had
launched the attack. They managed to teleport away with only a *bad*
case of sunburn. You see, the fort was using multi-gigawatt *beam*
lasers, with 1 meter apertures to do all this... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:54:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: lasers

In mail you write:

>>>>  What will that mean for tank (or lighter AFV) Xasers?
>>>I believe that in Star Mercs the listed xaser ranges are in-atmosphere.
>>>The VE2 convention is to make the calculations for in-atmosphere stuff, and
>>>then multiply by 50 (or whatever, based on weapon type) for space.  It's
>>>only in GT that they list the space range in miles (usually it's atmosphere
>>>range in yards).
>
> Note that in the Real World, the Earth's atmosphere is sufficiently opaque
> to x-rays that they should pretty much have zero effective range...

Translation: *all* the beam energy gets deposited in the air along the
first few meters of beam path. Ie *KABOOM*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:59:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In mail you write:

> He he!  I knew *this* was coming, Charles.  :-)
>
>> 1) How does the recieving system know how to unpack and reasemble the code?
>
> Who knows?  I'd say it depends on how the comps work to begin w/, which has 
> not be detailed (nor will it).  How do GURPS TL9+ comps work?  The same as 
> GTL7s?

This *and the rest of your "counter arguments" is based on a
misconception. Computers operate according to some fairly simple rules
of logic and math. These are *not* going to change, no matter *how*
sophisticated the computer gets. 

More on this below. 

>> 2)It it is in a standard format where is the anti virus software?
>
> Unknown.  Anti-virus software (which is said in Survival Margin to actually 
> be strains Virus itself, by the time of the Collapse) is still coded and 
> "made" by people outside of the system, whereas Virus itself is actually 
> inside the system and runs circles around it (if not coopting it to it's own 
> usage).  There is an electronic combat system in Vampire Fleets for them to 
> duel.

Actually, computer viruses only propogate due to poor system design and
administration. We've known they were *possible* for decades. It's just
that they only appeared in reality in systems such as MS-DOS computers
that had been designed with no concept whatsoever of system security. 

>> 3) Who tells the recieving unit that the assembled code is an executable?
>
> It's not an "executable."  Stop thinking in TL8 (GTL7) terms.  Say that 
> computers don't operate like anything you're familiar with.  For one, they 
> have organic cores, and I doubt you have experience w/ them.

It doesn't matter. As noted above, they *have* to follow certain
rules/laws, just as all mechanical devices have to be based on
principles known to Archimedes 3000 years ago. Show him a modern
mechanical device, and you might have to explain where the *power*
comes from, but he'd understand the rest. He'd be surprised at the
quality of the parts and at their size, but they'd follow rules he was
completely familiar with. 

Likewise, we know now the rules computers of *any* type have to follow.
We've known most since Babbage's time, and the rest since Turing and
von Neuman. *NO* new rules have been discovered, nor are any likely to
be. We've just gotten more sophisticated *combinations* of the rules.

Ada Lovelace wouldn't understand how the logic of our cumputers is
*implemented*. But she'd understand the *logics*. And thus the rules
they follow. Ditto goes for the stuff in the 3I. A logic gate is a
logic gate. Regardless of whether it's implemented as a mechanical
device, a circuit with tubes, a transistor circuit, part of an IC, an
optical circuit, or a quantum well device. Neural nets are simply more
complex arrays of gates.

And sorry, but I'd like a reference for those "organic cores". 

Anyway, by the rules of computing, you have "program" and you have
"data". They *can* be stored in the same "memory" *or* they can be kept
completely seperate. There exist *now* (and have since the 50s)
computers where the program store and data store are completely
seperate. On such a machine a virus is *impossible*. 

Even on normal von Neuman architecture systems, where code and data use
a common store, unless a program is set up to *allow* data to be
treated as code, it's not possible to get data executed. 

>> 4) What sane person would let unknown persons remote load a progam and
>> remote ececute it on their ships main computer?
>
> Noone did it voluntarily or even finding out till many months later.  
> Transponder (which consists of two lobotimized cymbeline predators) chatter 
> (w/ direct access to commo and computers) was the primary vector of 
> transmission.  Virus is not a "program."  It's a life form that lives in 
> electronics.  The next vector was computer controlled tight beam commo 
> (accuracies measured in attoradians, doppler shift correction, encoding and 
> decoding, etc).

And given the examples of recent years, you *really* think that OSes
and applications in the future are *not* going to have learned from
things like the Melissa virus? That they are going to leave *obvious*
holes in things for someone to exploit?

>> 5) Are there no computer security people in the traveller universe?
>
> Sure, but they're at an inherent disadvantage operating outside of their own 
> evironment against a life form in it's own.  Especially when they don't know 
> it's there and find they have no computer references to viruses or combating 
> them (the first thing Virus would do is delete or corrupt such information). 

You don't get it. The life form may "live" in computers, but that gives
it no more advantage in dealing with them than the fact that we live in
biological organisms gives us in dealing with such. 

It's like saying that because you are organic, you can "take over"
an organism that was *built* by expert biological engineers and
*designed* to do only certain things.   

> This is in the "dormant" phase.
>
>> 6) No hackers either?
>
> See above.  :-)

>> 7) No sysops that can set the operations perameter that says "Disable 
> remote
>> ececution"?
>
> Nope.  Get out of your GTL7 rut.  ;-)

Sorry, but again, this is a matter of the "rules of computing". Tech
level merely defines how the rules are *implemented*, not what they
are. The rules of solitaire are the same regardless of whether you are
playing with a deck of cards or a computer. 

Likewise, the existence of such a parameter is independent of TL. It
*is* possible to design a computer without the ability to set such a
restriction. Nobody is going to because it conveys *no* advantage, and
has *major* disadvantages. 

>> 8) Or set the "Run only from ROM disks" parameter?

> TL12+ involves self programming, according to MT Ref's Comp.
> Virus is TL16-17.  You can make a case that TL11- ships should be safe from 
> Virus.  It's TL10-, as stated in TNE.  I'd be fine w/ that, as the TL-15 IN 
> is still going to be completely infected.

Self-programming doesn't mean what you think it does. It means that
computers will be able to write programs. That means they can create a
"dataset" that can be used as a program. But that doesn't mean that
they are going to go around executing *outside* datasets. 

To use the "ROM disk" analogy, the computer can write the new program
to a chunk of memory, and then set that memory to read only. While the
*details* will be different, it's essentially the same principle as
burning a new ROM, then sticking the ROM into a socket in the
"executables" bank. 

And believe me, there *will* be safeguards on the ability to self
program. Mostly to make sure that there's no outside interference. 

>> 9) The only way the the virus could reconfigure the computers circuitry is
>> if the circuitry was designed to be reconfigured during operation, like a
>
> Which it is.

Not necessarily. Circuitry will tend to be hardwired. *Software* can be
reconfigured. This is why we use general purpose computers, with
application programs, rather than reconfigure the hardware for each new
application. 

>> neural network.  A hard wired silicon system sealed inside it's chips would
>> be invunerable to this form of attack as it's pathways could not be 
> changed.
>> The virus would have to gain direct physical contact with the silicon AND
>> have the necessary chemicals present in the atmosphere to re etch the
>> silicon.  This is stated explicitly in the adventure that introduced the
>> inteligent chips.
>
> It's not being done ala the method of the Cymbeline predator.  Low tech 
> level computers would be just as you say.  TNE says they're limited to
> "eggs" which behave just like "normal" computer viruses.

And, as such, won't work in computers. Among other things, writing a
virus requires intimate knowledge of hardware and software that it will
execute on. And, as I've pointed out, it's not *possible* if the OS has
decent security.

Nobody has a problem with the Virus being able to "brainwash" the
transponders. It's being able to infect *other* computers over comm
links and the like that trips the BS detectors.

>> 10) FIBs would be immune as well as their composition is as alien to the
>> chips as is our human biology.
>
> Only for the low tech computers.  The rest operates the same (synaptics, 
> self programming, etc).

Synaptics is the means of implementing the logic. That no more makes
two computers compatible than using ICs does. A program for a Motorola
CPU won't work on an Intel CPU. And FIB computers are going to be
*more* different than non-FIB units. 

Self-programming doesn't mean compatible either. Object-Oriented
programs aren't transferable between different architectures except
*maybe* as source code. Viruses have to be transferred as *object*
code. As *executables*. Which means they are *very* restricted.

You are confusing hardware, algorithms, and computational logic.

> <snip>
>> shielded hard wired backups to all critical systems.  These would also be
>> immune to the virus as they would have to be EM shielded and EM is the
>> method of infection for the virus.
>
> It is?  It's news to me.  lol.

If it isn't spreading through physical contact, then it is spreading
via *some* sort of communications channel. Since meson comms are out
(most ships don't have them), and sound is out (space is a vacuum) the
only thing *left* is EM (light, radio, etc).

Anyway, this is the dividing point. Some folk think that more advanced
technology will follow different rules. And others know that computers
are based on rules that *don't* change. Ever.

*Any* program can be reduced to a set of logical operations (one or
more algorithms).
*Any* logical operation can be implemented via combining a few basic
operations. For example: [And, Or, Not]. [And, Not]. [Or, Not]. [Nand].
[Nor]. 

The underlying *hardware* doesn't matter. Likewise, the language
doesn't matter. The language merely affects the way you express an
algorithm, not the actual algorithm. 

"If x then y" yeilds the following truth table:

x\y T F
 T  T F
 F  T T

Thus "X or not Y" is the same statement. Ditto for "not (x and y)". I'm
not going to bother with the Nand and Nor versions. 

But you can build stuff like adders, flip-flops, etc all the way up to
complete computers out of nothing more than this. In the final
analysis, any CPU is describable by a truth table of all the input
lines and output lines. And as such, they can be "resolved" to a series
of logical statements.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #586
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 587



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: bad leaders
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)
Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Famous Last Words (Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks]
Re: World Maps
Re: GT space combat
Re: accidents will happen
Need help contacting Roger Myhre
Re: Fun with nukes 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
Re: Fun with nukes
Democracy vs Autocracy
But sir, I think you've got the blueprint upside down...
Mozart In Mirrorshades
Re: Economics
Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: FW: Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW)
Re: Niven's Known Space species
Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 03:03:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In mail you write:

>>Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
>>to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
>>the operater.  TL will not change this.
>
> <snip more along the same lines>
>
> TL will change it.  Just like I don't expect to be able to understand how
> jump drives, contragravity, and reactionless thrusters work, I don't expect
> to understand how GTL12  (or for that matter GTL9) computers work.  They
> might be neural net, they might be biological, or they might be something
> entirely different.  

What you are saying is equivalent to saying that you won't be able to
understand how a *mechanical* device operates, merely because it is
higher TL. Sorry, it still has to obey the laws of mechanics. It may
have inputs or outputs based on something else, by the *mechancial*
operations will be understandable to you, or to Archimdes (about 3000
years ago, when those laws were first discovered).

Likewise, computers are devices designed *expressly* to cary out
sequences of logical and mathematical operations. No more and no less.
The TL will change *how* the operations are carried out. Rather like
the TL changes *how* the power that turns the shafter leading to a gear
train is generated. 

Would you try to claim that a *calculator* at a high TL is less
understandable than a current TL one? It's *exactly* the same thing.
*Regardless* of the innards, give the calculator the operands (numbers)
and operators (add, subtract, multiply, divide, etc). and it spits out
an answer based one the rules of math. 

> There probably will be a difference between data and code, but even that's
> not certain.  I am sure that things like assembly level instructions,
> optimizing compilers, and clock cycles will no longer exist.  I don't know
> what will, but it's going to be _totally_ different.  At best, using a
> computer will be similar, but even that's not certain.  The point is, more
> than two GTLs into the future, we can't be certain about _any_ assumptions.

Wrong. We can be *absolutely* sure of some things. Newtonian physics
(including the laws of mechanics and thermodynamics) will still best
the best description of the way the universe works at speeds well below
C, gravity fields less that those near a star, and energy densities
also less than "extreme". 

Likewise, the laws of logic and math will be the same. Which means that
since computers *embody* those laws, they will still have to follow
them. Thus clock cycles *must* exist, as operatiions need to be
synchronized. Ditto for data and code seperation. Assembly level
instructions also fall into that category, though they may be hidden
behind several lievels of 'higher level' structures (sort of like
microcode in many current processors). 

If it's *totally* different, then it *won't* be a computer. 

>  If things happen to work the same, fine, great, we can use out
> perceptions.  However, if it's not the same, all we can go by is the
> description of the _effect_ that is in the rulebook.  So if TNE says that
> virus can infect computers in certain ways, then it can.  Period.  

And if the rule book says that you can get more energy out of a device
than you put in, you'll go along with that too?

> Of course, in YTU, maybe GTL12 computers are just faster GTL7 computers,
> and in that case you are right.  However, nothing I've seen in the OTU
> leads me to believe this is true.  

If they are computers, they have to follow the rules of math and logic.
And be capable of having their work duplicated (however slowly) by a
Turing machine.

> BTW, I have written plenty of assembly code, and I understand what you say.
>  It's absolutely true for any computer that works the same way as a GTL7
> computer.  But that's it.

You are confusing the hardware and the algorithms.

> As an example (this isn't true in Traveller, this is something out of RL)
> we already have theories about computers that violate all our assumptions.
> One assumption that CS has is that certain problems are NP-complete.  No
> possible variation in coding technique that we've ever discovered, no
> advance in computer speed, no improvement of our existing machines can
> change this (yes I know.  this isn't proven.  However, it is a standard
> assumption in CS).  OTOH, the new nanotech breakthroughs have led many
> people to believe that using quantum computers, these problems can be
> solved in polynomial time.  This isn't just a different faster way of doing
> things.  It's something _totally different_.  And that's only GTL8, not
> even GTL12....

That's because quantum computers are (in effect) able to use
transfinite math in calculations. 

That doesn't change the fact that they are carrying out mathematical
and logical operations.

But, even quantum computers *can't* answer the halting problem.

NP-complete merely deals with *how fast*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 03:27:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: bad leaders

In mail you write:

> General A. Burnside, Union Army, US Civil War.  Great peacetime
> administrator, utter incompetant when it came to leading soldiers in
> battle.  After nearly winning a fight, onlt to order his men into a
> deathtrap, Lincoln remarked that only Burnside "could manage such a feat,
> to wring such a defeat from the jaws of victory."

And then there's General McClellan. To quote Lincoln again, "If General
McClellan isn't using the Army of the Potomac, I wonder if I might
borrow it for a bit?"

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 03:37:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  What kinds of religions exist IYTU that 'most' locals think are 
> just a fast scam?  What religions IYTU are considered to be 'real 
> religions'?  IMTU, the Solomani Catholic Church, both branches (Orthodox & 
> Sylean), are thriving propositions.  The 
> major point of contention seems to be whether or not St Elvis did or did not 
> shoot Nixon.  Another popular church in Reavers' Deep is something I swiped 
> directly from Andy Keith -- the Church of the Future Man, straight outta his 
> 'Rescue on Galatea'.
>
> In a PBEM that I play in (Hi, Roger!!), my character is a lapsed Solomani 
> Catholic with the name of Romli Issak Elvis Hamlin, the 'Elvis' being of 
> course St Elvis of Terra.  One of the people he has to deal with on a daily 
> basis is one Father Ivan, a priest of the Order of St. Michael.  <grin>

Well, I think we need a few write-ups. A couple I can think of are
"First Church of Satan, Reformed". And some sort of "high church"
Wiccans. 

Picture a group of unsuspecting characters who get invited to celebrate
a fertility festival by a local coven. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 03:43:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two

In mail you write:

> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:41:49 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Campaign: The Visitors Part Two
>
>>><< You've also overlooked the Neural Activity Sensor from one of >>the=20
>>>Scout books. It ought to be pretty revealing.
>>>
>>>Really?  How much detail do you get?
>>
>>I'm not sure. But I *am* sure that mammalian versus reptilian brain
>>patterns will be *easy* to diferentiate. The structure of a reptile
>>brain is *very* different from that of mammals. Not only do they lack
>>the frontal lobes (so do most mammals), they lack the entire cerebrum
>>IIRC (or is it cerebellum?)
>>
>>Intelligent reptiles would have to evolve something to fill in the
>>"gap", but odds are against it being much like the cererum. And thus,
>>they'll have *very* different readings.
>
> Are you assuming that the visitors are part of the family Reptilia that=20
> evolved on earth? I don=92t see that (but you never know with grandfather=
> =85) :)

I'm assuming a similar evolutionary path. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 04:40:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-07 17:25:47 EDT, you write:
>
> << Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
>  to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
>  the operater.  TL will not change this. >>
>
> This maybe a little off but how does the human brain do it?  We have 
> "Programes" for pattern reconishing, ect and we have memories, how does the 
> OS tell it apart?

Most of the "programs" are in the way the brain is *wired*. Most
learned behaviors are in how the neural net is "trained". we still
aren't sure *how* memories are stored.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 08:18:04 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Famous Last Words (Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks]

I found an interesting web site, www.trawna.com/keep/  , which 
has a good bit of Role Playing humour on it (including the
infamous story, The Eye of Argon). This may be a good place 
to post those bizzare Traveller stories: contact keep@trawna.com 
It's more fantasy than SF, but there are some SF stuff here also.

My own favourate area is the Famous Last Words section,
where you get stuff like...

"I wonder what the black-and-yellow striped ring above the seat does?"
        [It operates the ejection seat. Player was not inside a planetary
         atmosphere at the time, and was vacc-suit-less.]

"Come on!  Arrows versus Kevlar?"        [Giancarlo Diovanni]

"All right, I guess Toronaga's right.  There can't possibly be anything on
 the other side of this airlock.  Why not open the damned thing?"
        [Giancarlo Diovanni (Splatmaster), just before finding out that
         there really WASN'T anything on the other side of the airlock,
         including a door. He is currently taking the long tour to
         Arcturus.]


... and, from a related list on the same site....


"Click?? ...This doesn't come with ammo?"

"Who took the battery out of my grav belt?"

"Hmmm...the sign on the door says, "AIRLOCK".  I wonder what's inside."

"Yes, it's true I humiliated the DM in front of the debating team
Wednesday, but he's much too broad-minded to take it out on my
character."

"Diamonds ... Gold... Saphires !!! Terry! Terry, we're rich, we're
 rich, we're fabulously wealthy !!!!  ...Terry .....  Terry ??"

"But the directions SAID to `pull pin and throw' !"
         [From a beautifully role-played traveller character from a non-
          technological world. He was given a scout ship survival pack,
          which among other gimcracks, contained concussion grenades.
          When he got in trouble, of course, he pulled the pin out of
          one and threw it ("it" being the pin, naturally)...]

"Whoever did this must be long gone by now."

"I'm sure reinforcements will get here on time. They promised."

(snipped from list of 1259)

***********

PS, a belated thanks to Leonard Erickson for his post
on May 3 (you know, the one with the Neural Sensor's ).
I knew that I didn't get all the Scout's capasities down,
but couldn't figure out what did I miss (problem with 
not having good references handy, and largely relying on 
memory and the Web for Traveller info)


Alvin Plummer
"So how many Vargr does it take to change a light bulb ?"
     (PC to another PC while sitting in a Vargr bar)
                                                              - my own varient of #0560

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 07:01:23 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: World Maps

>Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 10:17:51 +1100
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: World Maps
>
>This is goanna sound *remarkably* unhelpful.
>
>There is a website out there, somewhere among the terabytes of web data,
>that lets you punch in hydrographics and some other data, and it does a
>fractal map of the world.

Try:

<http://www.lysator.liu.se/~johol/fwmg/fwmg.html>

Or, go to:

<http://www.compulink.co.uk/~vicarage/planets/>

and look around for what you need.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 06:55:39 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT space combat

>Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:15:48 EDT
>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: GT space combat questions
>
>I'm converting a HG design into GT, and I have some questions. Spinal mounts 
>do max damage of 60,000 DR, correct? 

That's 6*d*x10,000 = 360,000 HP max. Other spinal weapons will have
different values. 

[DR (damage resistance) is a measure of armor value, by the way; hit points
(HP) measure damage inflicted or taken.]

>If so; would that mean I would need 
>enough meson screen modules to negate 60,000 DR? 

Armor and meson screens should be based on damage beyond the 1/2 damage
range, since this is where most engagements will occur (besides, it
discourages munchkinism) => DR 180,000 max, in your example.  The
theoretical maximum for a spinal mount in GT is something like 165,000 HP
average and 282,000 HP max beyond 1/2D range.

>As for a PAW spinal mount 
>hit, what amount of armor would I need? I know I've got to stop 60,000 DR, 
>but pg. 168 says: " subtract target DR (modified by armor divisior)". What
is 
>the armor divisor? 

The armor divisor is that number or symbol in parentheses after the damage.
PA's don't have an armor divisor. X-ray lasers (all the ones in GT) have an
armor divisor of (2), which means you divide the armor DR by 2 before
subtracting it from the HP of damage rolled for the laser. In effect, you
have to double the amount of armor to get the same protection. Meson guns
have an armor divisor of (!), which means they ignore conventional DR but
are affected by meson screen DR.

>Is that the PD rating of 4?

PD is passive defense, and depends on the ship, not the weapon. It is a
measure of the chance that a shot will "glance off" a sloped armor plate
without doing damage, and therefore mostly intended for tanks and other
heavily sloped vehicles. I would pretty much ignore it for space combat,
unless I wanted to demonstrate to my players the futility of taking on a
warship:

"Whoa! 21 x 1,500 = 31,500 HP of damage, less DR 100 for your armor -- you
take 31,400 points of damage, and your ship is vaporized. Oh, wait a minute
[roll dice]. Damn, you made your passive defense roll, so your armor is
only slightly singed. What do you want to do now?" [Silly, I know, but
useful with some kinds of players...]

In general, armor rating should be tied to the class of ship: Escorts
should be able to stand hits from turret weapons, but not bay weapons.
Cruisers should be able to ignore hits from turret weapons and stand hits
from bay weapons, but not spinal weapons. Battleships and battleriders
should be able to ignore hits from bay weapons and stand hits from their
own or smaller spinal weapons.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:27:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: accidents will happen

>Actually, getting yourself killed with farm machinery is rather
>extraordinarily easy, one reason it's one of the most dangerous
>professions, in terms of per-worker death and injury.
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group

In Canada, farming is the most hazardous occupation, bar none.

Mind you, having seen a farmer pick up something from a tub of pesticide,
without gloves and without washing his hands afterwards, I figure that a
fair number of 'farm accidents' should be reclassified as 'farm
self-inflicted injuries'.

Tight deadlines, tight budgets, a wide variety of equipment and hazmat
substances, and poorly trained workers are a lethal mixture.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 8:40:09 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Need help contacting Roger Myhre

It is important that I contact Roger Myhre; if anyone has recent info
on his whereabouts, please contact me off-list.


DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior ConfigMgt Engineer      dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 06:58:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes 

At 06:32 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Why'd you pass up Cleveland???

What, and take out the 49ers' east coast division?  (aka the Cleveland
Browns)
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 07:07:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

At 06:18 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Are they wearing Linus Torvald t-shirts?  Do they *HONOR* Linus Torvald 
>t-shirts??  Can I equip my troops with Linus Torvald t-shirts before they
>get there??????

Doo-be-doobie-dooo.....

(Obscure American beer commercial reference for all our non-US readers.)

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 06:59:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

At 03:47 AM 5/8/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-07 17:11:11 EDT, you write:
>
><< So far, I've destroyed my home, Imperium Games, Ft. Benning Ga, my job,
San
> Francisco Airport, and the main offices of the Dallas Cowboys. >>
>
>What about Milosivich's house?

I try not to compete with NATO.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 00:30:49 +1000
From: "ab" <ab@rossmack.com>
Subject: Democracy vs Autocracy

> The "all aristocrats are bumbling twits" attitude is a relatively recent conceit, and one without  alot of meat behind it.

I once had an AD&D character who was a Noble and was asked her opinion on democracy:

"Oh yes!  Let the peasants vote for who leads them, what a good idea!

"While we're at it, why don't we vote the Gnome Illusionist as the spearhead for the next full frontal attack?  We can also vote for
the Ogre as the shortest member of the party!

"Don't you realise it takes years of training to lead and rule; it is not something you can leave to a bunch of amateurs."

- -AB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 00:30:52 +1000
From: "ab" <ab@rossmack.com>
Subject: But sir, I think you've got the blueprint upside down...

> I just got a copy of HG2, and on page 23, a previous owner drew in an arrow
> switching the "Maneuver" and "Jump" labels on the "drive potential table."
> Is this an official errata?  an un-official errata?  just a house rule

This confusion might explain some of the errors in various ship designs in Fighting Ships and the Spinward Marches Campaign.  

Ever looked at the numbers for a Laurenti class Battle Carrier?  It must have been designed with drop tanks in mind <g>.

- -AB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 00:30:42 +1000
From: "ab" <ab@rossmack.com>
Subject: Mozart In Mirrorshades

> There was a story about the culture shock of a high tech society
> exporting 'toys' to a lower tech society called 'Mozart In
> Mirrorshades'.  Can't remember what book it was in, though.

I read this in a cyberpunk anthology called 'Mirrorshades' (I think).

From memory the author is Bruce Sterling.

- -AB

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 08:43:12 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Economics

>Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 21:09:15 -0700
>From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
>Subject: Economics
>
>Does anyone have suggestions about how to incorporate realistic pricing
into the Traveller universe (CT,MT)? ... I know the trade rules cover a
little of that for bulk cargoes, but how do some of you handle the price of
everyday items IYTU? By standard book price? Handwave? WAG?

The CT answer is found in JTAS #4 (p. 6) and Adv 5: Trillion Credit
Squadron (p. 32). There is a table of exchange rates, based on starport
class and TL, for converting Imperial credits to local credits. In essence,
your Imperial credits buy more goods than the same amount of local currency
(unless on Mora or another TL F, starport A world). You can either exchange
credits (divide your credit total by the exchange rate) or adjust local
prices to Imperial credits (multiply by the exchange rate); the effect is
the same.

The same table appears in TNE (p. 230), but I don't know whether MT used it
or not. GT has a different version (suitable for GURPS) in Far Trader (p.
48), along with an explanation of the economics behind it.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 08:57:20 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue

>Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 02:36:33 EDT
>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue
>
>I'm writing a novel (at least the first three pages) and I would like the 
>ancers to a few questions:
>1) would something like thist fit into Traveller?  A slow boat ship is 
>launched in 2017 and gets throwen across the galaxy by a wormhole 

The Islands Clusters (Adv 5: TCS, pp. 40-48) were settled by slow boats
launched in 2050; the text refers to "several" large colony expeditions, of
which the ESA mission that wound up in the Clusters was only "the most
ambitious."

>2) How big would a Gene Bank be to hold 50K DNA Strands?

GURPS Biotech (p. 22) says a lifebank is $500, 5 pounds, and 0.1 cubic foot
per embryo stored; "hundreds" of germ cells can be frozen for the same
amount of weight, space, and cost. Say, Cr500, 2.25 kg, and 2.8 l per
hundred samples.

>3) Were can I find the rules for how an Irish Brogue works, or should I
start 
>channel surfing for dialog with an Irish character in is?

You can sometimes find books of accents for actors in a well-stocked library.

>Araque III.  The 3rd planet around a F7 type star, .9Gs think: Mars.

At 0.9g, it's going to be a whole lot more like Earth than Mars (0.34g).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 08:09:30 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-07 17:25:47 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
>  to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
>  the operater.  TL will not change this. >>
> 
> This maybe a little off but how does the human brain do it?  We have
> "Programes" for pattern reconishing, ect and we have memories, how does the
> OS tell it apart?
> -Stephen

Well, for anyone here who knows the answer to _that_, the Nobel Prize
Committee can be reached in Stockholm, Sweden...

We haven't really got much of a clue how the human brain works. We've worked
out some of the basic mechanics, but _how_ those basic mechanics combine to
make an organ that can write Beethoven's 5th Symphony or come into school with
some bombs and guns and kill your classmates, we're _really_ clueless, no
matter what we claim we know.

Hell, we're still studying _flatworm_ brains to see how they work, and those
have a handful of ganglia.

I've said it before, but anyone claiming to know with certainty how a TL16
computer works is also claiming to know how an iMac works, in detail, and why
the Autostart Worm can't possibly work, based on their extensive experience
with an abacus or Incan counting strings.

Most people in the 'data and programs are eternally separate' camp are
blindered by the fact that the Turing model of computing is so successful, so far.

For example, on a more abstract basis, that model breaks down with object
oriented programming, objects can be data and program. Waaay down at the heart
of the silicon chip, since the Turing Model is hardwired into them, computers
today make the distinction between executable and data, but what if the Turing
Model isn't the only workable one? After all...the human brain doesn't
_appear_ so far to follow that model. If it did, the 'Expert System' AI people
would have succeeded a long time ago.

And truthfully, modern chips don't necessarily make that distinction...it's
been a _long_ time since I've done any assembler (hint: I was using the 6502
instruction set ;-) but most modern register based chips only have a flag bit
to say whether a register holds an instruction or data, right? If something
could manipulate that flag bit like you or I wiggle our fingers, well, then it
might be pretty darn easy for 'data' to be treated as 'executable' and vice
versa, ESPECIALLY if while wiggling your finger you were physically
rearranging the circuitry.

<sigh>

This argument is the heart of the battle between Pro- and Anti- virus folk on
this list, and like "Feudal Technocracy!" "Technological Feudalism!" "Tastes
Great!" "Less Filling!" is an argument without end.

At least no one's tried to convert anyone to a hamster via e-mail yet....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 08:27:37 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: FW: Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW)

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> A link from one of our old "friends"....
> 
> Jesse, if you could forward this to the Traveller List...
> 
>  http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw.htm

Just two comments...

1) The little cartoon at the bottom appears to show the user firing at two
targets simultaneously: wow!

2) It also shows the idiot standing up from behind decent cover to do
so...idiot! Let me amend that DEAD idiot!

Also, I really, sincerely hope that that a TWS is some miracle device, because
I _cannot_ believe that an M16/M203 combo comes _anywhere_ close to $28k per
system. $14/round??? (I'm really hoping that's a per 100 measure or something...)

Just _how_ many Roswell alien spacecraft are we _building_ for that kind of
black budget???!!!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 08:32:24 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-07 14:10:05 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<   Has anyone actually done conversions of stuff from the Ringworld
>  game to any version of Traveller? >>
> 
> HNoI and the other ship LB, would be interesting, how would you do the
> ramships?
> -Stephen
> P.S. what about solar sails?

Fire Fusion and Steel has sections on 'alternate tech' that cover both. Gurps
Space or Vehicles might, too, but since I don't have either yet, I'll defer to
more knowledgable members of the list.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 08:38:11 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I'm writing a novel (at least the first three pages) and I would like the
> ancers to a few questions:

> 2) How big would a Gene Bank be to hold 50K DNA Strands?

Why strands? It's far simpler to freeze lots of ova and sperm. For 50k
individuals, with lots of samples so you can continue the cross-breeding
program, I'd say you could get by with a few dTons of space, plus whatever you
need for refrigeration equipment.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #587
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 588



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Niven's Known Space species
Re: Moving Chunks... (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks )
Re: solid hydrogen fuel
Re: Drop tank numbers, 2nd Ed. HG
Re: Fun with nukes 
Re: Niven's Known Space species
Adventure setting: The Star-Spangled Banner
Re: Drop tank numbers, 2nd Ed. HG 
Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue
Re: BD...
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: accidents will happen

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:51:26 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

At 05:09 AM 5/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>   TCS preceded HG2?
>
>Aint got a copy of TCS around anymore.  My HG2 book has a copyright date of 
>1980.  It's 2nd Edition.  I think HG1 came out in '79.

HG: 1979
HG2: 1980
TCS: 1981
(just looked it up....)

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:07:29 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> > From: AveNelso@aol.com
> > In a combination Striker/Mercenary campaign I ran, a player flying a
> > helicopter made a tree-top level run at an enemy laser emplacement and
> > dropped a bomb from 20 meters,  too bad the bomb had a burst radius of 40
> > meters.  At least he did destroy the laser before being made into french
> > toast.
> 
> What do we think?  MCUF or go for the whole posthumous SEH?  Eh, glory
> of the regiment and all that, wot?
> 
Nah, posthumously court-martial him for negligent destruction of unit
property, and make his next-of-kin pay for the lost helo....

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:21:13 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 99-05-07 14:10:05 EDT, you write:
> >
> > <<   Has anyone actually done conversions of stuff from the Ringworld
> >  game to any version of Traveller? >>
> >
> > HNoI and the other ship LB, would be interesting, how would you do the
> > ramships?
> > -Stephen
> > P.S. what about solar sails?
> 
> Fire Fusion and Steel has sections on 'alternate tech' that cover both. Gurps
> Space or Vehicles might, too, but since I don't have either yet, I'll defer to
> more knowledgable members of the list.

I found lightsails in GURPS Vehicles, on page 31.  I haven't yet found
any reference to Bussard ramjets in either GURPS Vehicles or GURPS
Space.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:34:35 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Moving Chunks... (was Re: Economics of Drop Tanks )

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> > >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
> > ...
> > >IIRC, the figure is on the order of 100Cr/ton to & from the high port.  Can't
> > >remember for the life of me where I saw this though.
> >
> >   Could be related to the identical charge for moving planetoids from the
> > outer system (or elsewhere) to the mainworld per HG2?
> 
> Could be, but I *know* I saw something about travel by commercial boat from
> the high port in orbit to the planetary surface, and it was 100 Cr/ton.
> People I think were 25Cr.
> 
In my copy of Book 2 (I think it's an older edition, based on comments
about Book 2 encounter tables), page 2, it states that commercial
interplanetary travel by scheduled liner is "approximately 10% of the
cost for similar interstellar travel."

<<snip sig>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 11:09:18 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: solid hydrogen fuel

>Questions :-
>Are there any alternate liquid phases of hydrogen known?
Not that I'm aware of (other than liquid, liquid metallic, and degenerate.)

>Would induction of a superfluid state (Bose-Einstein condensate) help attack
the >problem??
Hydrogen atoms don't for Bose-Einstein condensates because they aren't bosons
(they have fractional rather than integer spins, to be technical.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 20:15:57 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers, 2nd Ed. HG

David P. Summers writes:

>>The numbers come straight from High Guard 2nd Edition, pg 27 paragraph 5.  I
>>directly quote the source:
> 
>Yes, if you want to take what is said in CT without question, then yes,
>they work just like you say they do because CT says that is  what happens.
>That is missing the point that it just doesn't make sense.

Right you are, David. Just like piracy, really...

No, no! Don't hit me! Please! I'll be good! I promise!


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
                "I am a jelly doughnut."
                        J.F. Kennedy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 14:17:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes 

> At 06:32 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Why'd you pass up Cleveland???
> 
> What, and take out the 49ers' east coast division?  (aka the Cleveland
> Browns)

Who follows football???

Seriously, the only hockey team worth mentioning in Cleveland is the 
Lumberjacks, and they ain't worth mentioning twice.  And ever since the Force 
went bankrupt (MISL, for those who didn't know), the place hasn't been worth 
talking about.

And besides, the way they financed Jacobs Field and Gund Arena makes it a 
prime target for a 30 MT blast...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 14:21:35 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

At 11:21 AM 5/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I found lightsails in GURPS Vehicles, on page 31.  I haven't yet found
>any reference to Bussard ramjets in either GURPS Vehicles or GURPS
>Space.

AFAIK, there are no rules anywhere in GURPS for ramscooops.  This is, IMHO,
a gross oversight.  There might be something in the GURPSNet archive though...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:11:09 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Adventure setting: The Star-Spangled Banner

This particular adventure setting is a traslation of a neato ideal I got from
Phil Hunt, dejanews location
http://x9.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=bg]/threadmsg_bg.xp?AN=473682617&
CONTEXT=925992412.1602224208&thitnum=2,

Title of his post: "America not a superpower", date posted 1999/05/03,
in soc.history.what-if

The setting is Classic Trav 1120, but is easily movable.
I would have put it on Aramanx (Aramis: Spinward Marches
3005 B657974-6 ), but it would have interfered with canon, and
anyway's, it seem's to be everyone's favourate world to fight
a neo-WW II.  I'll pick on Marastan  (Glisten: 2231 D868772-5 924)
instead, ignoring what Gurps:Traveller has to say on the world.

********

There are about six major nations on Marastan, and about
50 smaller countries.  Several of these nations have
empires.  At 1100 (before the Eighth Marastan War),
the major nations included:

Suliikirsi
- - an island state, holding 1.7% of the world's population.
At 1100, they held an empire controlling  17.5% of the
world's population, and 10% of the world's land area.
At 1100, the  TL is 5 on the home island,
0 - 4 in the empire (mainly 3-4)

Shur Lekushakliluurgim
- - a continental state of  4.2% of the world's population.
They had no empire, but the state controlled 5% of the world's
land area.  At 1100, the TL is 5.

Ukakim i Imgarmurshika
- - a continental state of 1.5% of the world's popualtion.
At 1100, they held an empire controlling an additional 0.6%
of the world's population, and all together has 1% of the world's
land area.  At 1100, the TL is 5 on the home nation, 1 in the empire.

Malagiirkisa Ur Uuki
- - a continental state of 5.0% of the world's population.
At 1100, they held no empire, but the state has 8% of the world's
land area.  At 1100, the TL is 4 - 3.

Shimiirlemuga
- - a continental state of 2.0% of the world's population.  At 1100, they
held an empire controlling an additional 7.2% of the
world's population, and all together has 5% of the world's land area.
At 1100, the TL is 5 in the home state, 0 - 3 in the empire.

Phyrenethion
- - an island state of 2.2% of the world's population.  They
held an empire controlling an additional 0.8% people, and all
together has 2% of the world's land area.  At 1100, the TL is 5
on the home island, 4 - 5 in the empire.

All these nations were (and are) Viliani-dominated, with one exception.
The nation's are 100% Vilani (with one exception),
and the empires 80%-100% Solomani.
There are only four independent Solomani nations: most
Solomani on Marastan live under a Vilani empire.  All the
major nations (with two exceptions) are on the Rajkot continent.

There are two exceptions to the above.  Shur Lekushakliluurgim
is dominated by the Vilani, but about 15% of the population
are subject Solomani: they are citizen's, but are definitely
poorer, discriminated against, and have fewer rights than the
Vilani (both legal and social).

At one time, the Lekushakliluurgi were member's of the
Suliikirsi empire, but successfully revolted.

The Suliikirsi empire has several independent,  TL 5 Vilani states
allied with it, which can be called on to help the mother country.
Despite the revolution, many Lekushakliluurgi still retain ties to
Suliikirsi, while other's consider it their main competitor.

The other major exception to the pattern  above is the
Phyrenethioi.  Phyrenethion is a 100% Solomani nation, which has
assimilated much of the dominant Spinward-Vilani culture.  They have
managed to upgrade their TL from 3 to 5 in a mere 100 years,
although much of their domestic and social life still has a TL 3 "look and feel".

********************

Additional geography notes

Ukakim i Imgarmurshika and  Shimiirlemuga are located on the
Rajkot continent, with the island of the Suliikirsi nearby off the far eastern
shore, and the massive Malagiirkisa Ur Uuki on the Rajkot
continent to the West.  Shur Lekushakliluurgim is on a seperate
continent, on the other side of the world.

Most of the independent Vilani nations are on the Rajkot continent,
with only three on Udaipur, the continent dominated by Shur
Lekushakliluurgim.  The other two continent's, Rann and Por Godhra,
are colder continent's dominated by Vilani-ruled Solomani.
Rann is contiguous with Rajkot, seperated by a long mountain range:
the Solomani nation of Phyrenethion is at the far side of Rann.
Por Godhra is a massive continent, north of Pajkot, colonized by
the Vilani: it play's little part in world affair's.

The massive Mumbai Ocean seperates the Phyrenethioni (on the ocean's east side) from the Udaipur continent (on the
western side), with the somewhat smaller Jaipur Ocean dividing the Udaipur landmass (on the Jaipur's eastern side)
from the Rajkot continent (on the Jaipur's western side).

********************

Military situation:

At 1093, Ukakim i Imgarmurshika was defeated in a major conflict
on the Rajkot continent, fighting against all the other Vilani states
(including Lekushakliluurgi, who sent an expeditionaly force late in the
war).  At 1102, the Ukakimi stop paying their heavy reparation
payment's, with the support of all except Shimiirlemuga.

The new government of Malagiirkisa Ur Uuki invades a few minor
Vilani states on Rajkot, on 1107.  This worries the Ukakimi, who re-arm with
the approval of the Suliikirsi.  The Malagiirkisai invader's get's
bogged down in mountain warfare.

At 1108 the Malagiirkisai successfully invade another nation, Giisiraguu Mash,
which is a neighbour of Ukakim i Imgarmurshika.  The Ukakimi defend their
neighbour's, committing much of their military to repelling the Malagiirkisai
army: this mark's the offical start of the Eighth Marastan War.
The Shimiirlemugai invade Ukakim i Imgarmurshika, while fighting
Suliikirsi's navy. (Suliikirsi is precieved as an ally of the hated Ukakimi:
the Shimiirlemugai's action's soon make that preception a reality).
A few lesser Vilani nations ally's themselves with the Shimiirlemugai on Rajkot

At 1109, the Phyrenethioi launch a surprise attack on Shimiirlemugai
possession's near the Mumbai Ocean.  The Suliikirsi relucantly support
this Solomani attack on the Shimiirlemugai empire. The war on the Rajkot
continent stabilizes into a slugfest, with expensive offworld mercenaries making
lightening strikes on supply lines and providing intelligence (when they
aren't busy fighting each other).

The Malagiirkisai start focusing on mass-producing TL 4 tank armies (with some
experimental TL 5 units), while the Suliikirsi, Phyrenethioi and the Ukakimi
focus on research in modifying off-world TL 5/6 technology to useful tools.

Late in 1109, a small Vargr raiding squadron - stiffened by two Zhodani
units - strike at Marastan, as part of the greater Fifth Frontier War (1107-1110).
The local starport takes some damage, but most of the real hurt
is suffered by civilian traders, profiting from the war.  Six ship's are destroyed,
and twenty damaged before the raider's dissappear into Jumpspace.

At 1110, the Malagiirkisai invade a Phyrenethioi puppet state on Rann.
The Phyrenethoi befin a crash program to build up their tanks, with
Suliikirsi and Ukakimi support.  The invasion is slowly turned back by
the Phyrenethioi.  Meanwhile, the Shimiirlemugai army in Ukakim i
Imgarmurshika is defeated while attempting a major river crossing:
as the direct invasion of Ukakim i Imgarmurshika is tuned back, the
Shimiirlemugai begin attacking portions of the Suliikirsi empire in
Por Godhra and Rann.

By around 1113, the A Khashikhinkakha alliance of nations
( Phyrenethion, Ukakim i Imgarmurshika, Suliikirsi, and a few minor
Vilani states) are clearly victorious, and there is an armistice.
A treaty is soon drawn up, which divides up the Shimiirlemuga empire
as spoil's for the victor's, and gives disputed Shimiirlemuga/Ukakim i
Imgarmurshika territory to Ukakim i Imgarmurshika.  Some national
Malagiirkisai territory is given to the Phyrenethioi, as well.

By 1114, Malagiirkisai is sliding into chaos under it's new government,
while Shimiirlemuga schemes to regain her rightful place under the sun.
All demobilize to focus of rebuilding their domestic economy, except Phyrenethion.
Seeing their chance, they strike across the Mumbai Ocean at Shur
Lekushakliluurgim, who stayed out of the Eighth Marastan War.
Destroying the Lekushakliluurgi fleet on the Mumbai shores, they invade
the costal region's of the Lekushakliluurgi.  Resentful of the Lekushakliluurgi
refusal to fight to defend Vilani civilization in Rajkot, no Vilani state
lift's a finger to help them, except - in a very limited fashion - the Shimiirlemuga.

The small, low-tech (aka not a single tank!), inexperienced Lekushakliluurgi
army start's to fight back, and all of Shur Lekushakliluurgim start's to apply
their major economic muscle to regain their land's and bring the fight to
the Phyrenethioi.

During the Eighth Marastan War, the A Khashikhinkakha alliance developed a way to build an atomic bomb.  Quote from one
of Phil Hunt's follow-up posts:

   There's two ways of making nukes. You can either build a U bomb,
   getting the fissile material by gas diffusion (very expensive), or
   you can build a Pu bomb, getting the fissile material from a breeder
   reactor (cheaper, but the bomb is more difficult to make). The...
   wartime effort tries the latter -- they don't have the resources
   to do both. The electronics and shaped charges needed to detonate a
   Pu bomb are available, as an offshoot of their wartime radar and
   AT ammunition programs.

The A-bomb's were top secret, and were only to be used if the Imperium
abandoned Marastan, or in case of dire emergency.  The other power's
dismantled their bombs after the Eighth Marastan War, but the
Phyrenethion didn't, and as the war turned against them (fought with a savage
racial edge on both sides, may I add), two major Lekushakliluurgi cities  got
nuked on 84-1116.

The highest Imperial representative insystem at the time, Sir Uudingagsuur
Gishurmushdi, immediately demanded a ceasefire from both
the Lekushakliluurgi and the Phyrenethioi, and got it.  [No, he had no warship's
or Imperial troops with him: they obeyed him simply because of who he represented.]

Later, the Imperial government launched an investigation of all the major states
on the planet.  Many researchers and governmental officals were shot/killed by the sword for treason against the
Imperium, while heavy fines were tossed every
which way.  The Phyrenethion were ordered to retreat from Lekushakliluurgi
territory, which they did with alacrity.

Because this was a first offence, and the use of Imperial military personnel
wasn't needed to get the locals to obey, the Imperium went easy on the offending
nations.  This is not appricated by the local Phyrenethioi, who *know* that they
would have pounded the snot out of the Solomani Phyrenethioi if given the
chance.

******************

The political situation, as of1120

Suliikirsi
- - an island state, holding 1.7% of the world's population.
Currently, they hold an empire controlling  18.0% of the
world's population, and 12% of the world's land area.

Shur Lekushakliluurgim
- - a continental state of  4.2% of the world's population.
They have no empire, but the state controlled 5% of the world's
land area.

Ukakim i Imgarmurshika
- - a continental state of 1.5% of the world's popualtion.
At 1100, they held an empire controlling an additional 3.0%
of the world's population, and all together has 3% of the world's
land area.

Malagiirkisa Ur Uuki
- - a continental state of 5.0% of the world's population.
The state has 8% of the world's land area, but much of it
is ungovernable.

Shimiirlemuga
- - a continental state of 2.1% of the world's population, and
.5% of the world's surface area.  They have no empire.

Phyrenethion
- - an island state of 2.2% of the world's population.  They
held an empire controlling an additional 4.8% people, and all
together has 4% of the world's land area.

Note that the tech level's did not increase despite the war.
The Imperium as part of it's sanctions removed all tech gains
secured during the war (including deporting personnel, smashing
labs and burning books and manuscripts).  Moreover, the Vilani never
liked technological change anyway, and the majority support
the Imperium's actions.

The TL of Malagiirkisa Ur Uuki has declined substantially in most areas
due to poverty: some TL4 areas still hold out, due to Vilani reluctance to
tolerate a TL decline (that is also a change, and all Vilani know that Change
is Bad.)

******************

Local patrons

A) Local Solomani

The PC's can be hired by local Solomani, but that's unlikely,
as they have no money.  Still, the Spinward Marches is mainly Solomani,
so the local's do have some interstellar symphathizers.  Very few care
enough to put their lives or their money on the line, however.

The local's are mainly of Indian descent, with some American, Hispanic and
Vilani blood mixed in: their ancestor's first colonized Marastan at around
the 400's, and named most of the local geography  (including the world
itself).  The Vilani are harsh masters, insisting that
all Solomani-derived customs, languages, cultures and religions be
suppressed: but obedience to the Vilani is rewarded and loyality praised.

The majority distain and/or ignore their Vilani overlords, and are puzzled
on why their powerful Solomani cousin's don't come from the sky to help them.

B) The Phyrenethioi

Arriving in this nation, one feel's that they are in a fractured, off-centre
copy of a Vilani world.  The Phyrenethioi sometimes seems more Vilani than
anything this side of the Claw, but their custom's, buildings, clothing and speech
contain more than a trace of Solomani influence.  The Vilani scout
walking in their street's would be interested by the people and
the distinctive mix of cultures here.

The local language is a form of Modern Vilani, mixed in with good
portions of Hindi, ASL (a synthetic Trojan Reach language) and the
Indian English of the Second Imperium.

Strangely, despite their Solomani origins, they run the most repressive,
tightly organized empire on the planet.  Their empire has been reprimanded
twice by the Imperium for running slave camp's (with heavy fines and
resititution the price to be paid), and while the other empires are generally peaceful, the Phyrenethioi are always
having to suppress three or four
rebellions at a time.

C) The Lekushakliluurgi

While the Phyrenethioi imitate the Vilani, the Lekushakliluurgi
are being reshaped by their large Solomani minority.  On the one
hand, they have pride in their Vilani heritage and blood, and despise
anything Solomani.  On the other hand, their music, language, religion,
and clothing are clearly being influenced by their Solomani servants,
even as the masters refuse to see it.  Even their national symbol,
a long blue pennant edged with red and white stripes, was clearly
influenced by a certain famous Solomani flag (don't try to debate this with
the locals, however: they will just go on a rant on how many Vilani cultures
use the same design, ages before the Solomani even set foot on their
moon).

The Solomani have more right's here than anywhere else on Marastan:
Anglic shares equal status with Vilani in this nation, and Solomani
local's can enter the professions, or even obtain government positions
in the ruling civil service here.  On the other hand, a Solomani man
looking at a Vilani woman the wrong way is a good way to get yourself
killed here, while no one would even do in the Vilani colonies (who would
merely cut off the woman from the Vilani community, locking her into a life
of poverty).

The Lekushakliluurgi have recovered from their economic downturn,
and a minority are still itching for revenge against the filthy Solomani
Phyrenethioi.  They feel that the Imperium stole the glory that is rightfully
their's, and would love offworld help (even  <gag> *Solomani* help)
to provoke a war against the Phyrenethioi, and get their full pound
of flesh.

D) Suliikirsi

Holding the most powerful nation on the planet, Suliikirsi is in a slow decline.
The recent war has exhausted revenue and the number of young men, and
their grip on their empire is loosening somewhat.  The society comes
close to the Vilani idea, stable, harmonious and unchanging, with many
customs and laws dating from the initial Vilani settlement, centuries ago.
They *never* mix with Solomani socially - even wealthy, out-of-system Solomani -
but they also pride themselves on their political ability, and their sense of
fair play and consistency.

The downside portion of the planetary main port is based on the home island,
nearby the major city of Khiikun (long the largest city on the planet,
it's now in a neck-to-neck race with the Lekushakliluurgi city of
A Iirlii for the title).  Visitor's are treated courteously here, but most
Solomani find the food super bland ("Just the way they do it on
Vland!") and make a speedy trip to nearby Shimiirlemuga for something
edible.

E) Ukakim i Imgarmurshika

The up-and-coming power on Marastan, the Ukakimi concern is
"Keeping the Suliikirsi in, the Malagiirkisai out and the
Shimiirlemuga down."  Their empire is well-organized for
pure profit: as long as the natives work hard, they don't really care
what they do in their off-time.  A lot of their new empire is being
extensively developed and industrialized.

The largest colonial war currently on the planet is in the colony of
Ratangarh: the area is being ethnically cleansed of Solomani, in
preparation of Ukakimi settlement. Close supervision by Imperial
officer's is being done to prevent massacres, but the planet is a
backwater and the number of officer's few.

Good thing about those satellites - they are worth another 80 men on
the ground, and are doing a great job in restraining Ukakimi from fighting
the local natives in the traditional Vilani style.  Now, there's just no way that
the Ukakimi government would dare defy Imperial law, and hire someone
to knock them down, now is there?  Nahhh....

F) Shimiirlemuga

Currently, the Shimiirlemugai are still locked in a nasty political
firefight, with martial law in several provinces.  The locals can't
decide if they hate the murderous Ukakimi or the treasonous
Suliikirsi more, and everyone is pointing the finger at everyone else
as the cause of their defeat and the loss of their empire.

Interestingly, offworlder's Solomani recieve their best reception here:
the Shimiirlemugai have a reputation for good food, fine living, and
intellectualism, and are happy to share these things with visitors - for
a price.

During this chaotic period of Shimiirlemuga history, the Imperial
Catholic Church (Denebi Rite) is making a remarkable comeback, and is
rapidly growing back it's membership and influence, lost in the
nation's third revolution 230 year's ago. (Incidentally, this nation has had
about three more revolutions than any other Vilani nation on the planet).

G) Malagiirkisa

Currently, the Malagiirkisai are not worthy of the title of "Major Power",
but they have a history of coming back from the grave, so they will be
included in this brief survey.

The Malagiirkisa government is offically by a ruling ideolgical elite, but
in reality has dissolved into warlordism.  While a few of the warlord's
do fight among themselves, most are willing to carve up the pie among
themselves, and devour the local wealth for themselves.  Even so,
the decline of Malagiirkisa power has levelled off, setting the stage
for either a second sharp fall or a recovery led by some charismatic
individual. (Well, "charismatic" in the Vilani sense, rather than Vargr or
Solomani meaning.)

The Imperial government has been working to cobble some viable
government for the Malagiirkisai for the last three years, with some
progress made.  Still, a recent setback has increased Imperial frustration:
there is already talk of abandoning the effort, and letting the chip's fall where
they may.  Several Imperial noble families and corporations are already
laying their own plans for Malagiirkisa, but won't step in till the Imperial
mediator's step out.  They may not have long to wait.

****************************

Alvin Plummer

"Once more unto the breach dear friends, once more! Or fill up the wall
with our English dead!"

- - - William Shakespeare, from "Henry V"

****************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 14:29:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers, 2nd Ed. HG 

> David P. Summers writes:
> 
> >>The numbers come straight from High Guard 2nd Edition, pg 27 paragraph 5.  I
> >>directly quote the source:
> > 
> >Yes, if you want to take what is said in CT without question, then yes,
> >they work just like you say they do because CT says that is  what happens.
> >That is missing the point that it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> Right you are, David. Just like piracy, really...
> 
> No, no! Don't hit me! Please! I'll be good! I promise!

Repeat after me.  "It's a game.  It's a game.  It's a *GAME*..."

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:33:49 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue

In a message dated 99-05-08 11:39:12 EDT, you write:

<< Why strands? It's far simpler to freeze lots of ova and sperm. For 50k
 individuals, with lots of samples so you can continue the cross-breeding
 program, I'd say you could get by with a few dTons of space, plus whatever 
you
 need for refrigeration equipment. >>

Good, idea, but I was thinking about having the strands to that they could be 
cloned and placed inside of an ova.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:36:30 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: BD...

In a message dated 99-05-08 05:36:14 EDT, you write:

<< How  uncivilised!  War without killing... why even bother with marines and
 the army?  Tsk, tsk, tsk.  Nah!  IM's do need to get in amongst the
 mayhem... it's tradition!  To paraphrase Homer Simpson, "Blood splattered
 Battle Dress... Hmmmmmmm..."
 
 --  The Roc >>

Okay, well, if its cannon.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:44:52 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-08 08:25:56 EDT, you write:

<< Most of the "programs" are in the way the brain is *wired*. Most
 learned behaviors are in how the neural net is "trained". we still
 aren't sure *how* memories are stored. >>

By wired I assume that you are referming to "pre-set" neural nets?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:55:45 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: accidents will happen

In a message dated 99-05-08 09:27:56 EDT, you write:

<< Mind you, having seen a farmer pick up something from a tub of pesticide,
 without gloves and without washing his hands afterwards, I figure that a
 fair number of 'farm accidents' should be reclassified as 'farm
 self-inflicted injuries'.
 
 Tight deadlines, tight budgets, a wide variety of equipment and hazmat
 substances, and poorly trained workers are a lethal mixture >>

Thats, right.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #588
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 589



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)
Re: Fun with nukes
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 
re: ATTN: Loren Wisemen Cargo sizes?
Jump fuel
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue
Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam 
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)
Re: Niven's Known Space species
Re: Science and Sanity
Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue
Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks) 
Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks) 
Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
Re: Jump fuel 
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 14:57:52 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> 3) Were can I find the rules for how an Irish Brogue works, or should I start
> channel surfing for dialog with an Irish character in is?

Huh?  Rules for a brogue?

Ok.

Take One Irishman.
Insert 1 pint (Imperial) of Guinness Stout
Insert 1 shot whiskey (Bushmills or Jamesons)
Repeat until desired brogue is reached.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 14:59:24 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-05-07 16:57:51 EDT, you write:
>
> << I lurked there for a while because the chairman of the board of
>  trustees at my law school's university represented the 'Church' of
>  Scientology in some cases in which some of their secret documents
>  had been posted to the web, and I was curious because I thought
>  some of their legal practices were questionable. >>
>
> Can you give details?
> -Stephen

I don't think the plaintiff's lawyer in a civil suit, had any business
being present when the police serve and enforce a search warrant
for a related criminal charge.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:00:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

In a message dated 99-05-08 10:11:29 EDT, you write:

<< I try not to compete with NATO. >>

Or else you would have to piss of Russia and China.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:25:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 

 "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
>ObTrav:  What kinds of religions exist IYTU that 'most' locals think are
>just a fast scam?  What religions IYTU are considered to be 'real
>religions'?  IMTU, the Solomani Catholic Church, both branches (Orthodox &
>Sylean), are thriving propositions.  The major point of contention seems
>to be whether or not St Elvis did or did not shoot Nixon.  Another popular
>church in Reavers' Deep is something I swiped directly from Andy Keith --
>the Church of the Future Man, straight outta his 'Rescue on Galatea'.

Hmm. Well, having been involved in writing it (hence take this with a pinch
of salt) I do use 101 Religions, which has analogues to many current
religions, plus a large number ranging from cargo cults up to strange
sects. One of my favourites is the one which tends to be scientist driven
infested and believes that 'god' was present at the birth of the universe,
so keeps on trying to build a deep space array of satelites to build a
sensor platform which can see into the past.

Funny thing is, at a certain point in Traveller's history, all records of
these people and their observation system disappear and all that an be
found of them is an obscure reference to archery.

The other ones I like include the RCCS and the Aslan one (Shrine of Heroes)
which are kind of interesting.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:44:01 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: ATTN: Loren Wisemen Cargo sizes?

Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com> wrote:
>A friend of mine has just started to transfer his Space game to
>Traveller, and in the basic rules on page 122 of the GURPS: TRAVELLER
>book, we could not figure how a merchant ship would survive on such
>little cargo tonnage. Most of the time a 200 ton merchant would not be
>able to fill his cargo, and god help you if you have the 400 ton
>subsidized mechant. Are we doing something wrong?

One of the GURPS: Far Trader authors could answer this better, but....

The Traveller cargo/freight rules were based around tramp traders who are
involved in speculative trade, not freight 'box shifting'. As a result some
of the smaller ships (eg the free trader at 200 dt) can only really make
money through speculative cargos. Now, this may seem limited (especially by
the rules on pg 122, but earlier versions of Traveller allowed multiple
speculative lots to be available.

I wholeheartedly recommend GURPS: Far Trader for a much better, and in
depth treatment of the merchant rules for traveller. Alternatively, try and
find a copy of the trade and commerce rules from MegaTraveller (the
referee's manual pg 46 through 54) as an iterim solution. They should work
fine if you use one of the task equivalence systems out there for GURPS
mods to Traveller task levels.

Marc Miller had a large number of MT books available a while ago (at around
$10 IIRC). His website is linked from BITS (http://www.bits.org.uk/) on the
jumpsite page, and I believe he still sells old GDW material.

Cheers,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:50:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Jump fuel

From High Guard, pg 22, paragraph 8:

>"Fuel:  A ship requires fuel for its jump drives and for its power plant; the
>power plant convrts fuel to energy for computers, jump drives, manuver
>drives,
>weapons, and screens.  Fuel tankage must be sufficient to contain a full load
>for the power plant and the jump drive.  Additional tankage may be installed
>as an option.  There is no cost for interior fuel tankage."
>
>BTW, this paragraph flat out says that while it may be *possible* to design
>and build a ship that uses drop tanks for all jump fuel, it certainly ain't
>*legal* by the rules.  And yes, the Gazelle *is* compliant in that it is
>designed for Jump 4 performance *with* the tanks retained.

I think it would be possible (depends on your reading of the rules) but I
see where you're coming from.

The really interesting thing is the paragraph supports the hydrogen bubble
model for jump because it states the J-drive is powered by the powerplant.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:17:26 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

In a message dated 99-05-08 11:10:46 EDT, you write:

<< Well, for anyone here who knows the answer to _that_, the Nobel Prize
 Committee can be reached in Stockholm, Sweden...

xxxx
Stochholm? Hmm, I'lll have to talk to them...
xxxx
 
 We haven't really got much of a clue how the human brain works. We've worked
 out some of the basic mechanics, but _how_ those basic mechanics combine to
 make an organ that can write Beethoven's 5th Symphony or come into school 
with
 some bombs and guns and kill your classmates, we're _really_ clueless, no
 matter what we claim we know.

xxxx
Some work has been done with neural nets for systems that learn (MIT and some 
game companys have goten things that learn, I'm hoping to do something with 
it after I finish my populashion modeling project)
xxxx
 
 Hell, we're still studying _flatworm_ brains to see how they work, and those
 have a handful of ganglia.

xxxx
realy?  I though that we had gone beyond that.  
xxxx
 
 I've said it before, but anyone claiming to know with certainty how a TL16
 computer works is also claiming to know how an iMac works, in detail, and why
 the Autostart Worm can't possibly work, based on their extensive experience
 with an abacus or Incan counting strings.
 
 Most people in the 'data and programs are eternally separate' camp are
 blindered by the fact that the Turing model of computing is so successful, 
so far.
 
 For example, on a more abstract basis, that model breaks down with object
 oriented programming, objects can be data and program. Waaay down at the 
heart
 of the silicon chip, since the Turing Model is hardwired into them, computers
 today make the distinction between executable and data, but what if the 
Turing
 Model isn't the only workable one? After all...the human brain doesn't
 _appear_ so far to follow that model. If it did, the 'Expert System' AI 
people
 would have succeeded a long time ago.
 
 And truthfully, modern chips don't necessarily make that distinction...it's
 been a _long_ time since I've done any assembler (hint: I was using the 6502
 instruction set ;-) but most modern register based chips only have a flag bit
 to say whether a register holds an instruction or data, right? If something
 could manipulate that flag bit like you or I wiggle our fingers, well, then 
it
 might be pretty darn easy for 'data' to be treated as 'executable' and vice
 versa, ESPECIALLY if while wiggling your finger you were physically
 rearranging the circuitry.
 
 <sigh>
 
 This argument is the heart of the battle between Pro- and Anti- virus folk on
 this list, and like "Feudal Technocracy!" "Technological Feudalism!" "Tastes
 Great!" "Less Filling!" is an argument without end.
 
 At least no one's tried to convert anyone to a hamster via e-mail yet.... >>

how would you even go about doing that?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:20:38 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue

In a message dated 99-05-08 15:00:51 EDT, you write:

<< Huh?  Rules for a brogue? >>

Well, the speach patterns (droping the "g" in "ing", ect)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 15:23:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam 

> >>> >Do the creators Familie Spofulam keep reins on the
> >>> >family, or are we free to create a new member?
> >>> 
> >>> I think probationary membership would be the way to go. It's really
> >>> Roderick's decision, but he's incommunicado, practicing law somewhere in
> >>> Canada ... 
> >>
> >><sigh>  And Roderick showed *SO* much promise...
> >
> >It's a shame about Canada as well...
> 
> As I'm in Canada myself, should I be concerned? Or at least vigilant?
> Batten down the hatches? Get the FGMP-15 charged and ready?

I wasn't bemoaning the fact that he lives in Canada so much as the fact that 
he's a practicing l*wy*r.

Course, it *COULD* be worse.  He coulda been a serial killer.  Or an 
investment banker...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:27:40 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)

In a message dated 99-05-08 15:02:42 EDT, you write:

<< I don't think the plaintiff's lawyer in a civil suit, had any business
 being present when the police serve and enforce a search warrant
 for a related criminal charge. >>

Okay, weird.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:30:27 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

In a message dated 99-05-08 12:26:47 EDT, you write:

<< > Fire Fusion and Steel has sections on 'alternate tech' that cover both. 
Gurps
 > Space or Vehicles might, too, but since I don't have either yet, I'll 
defer to
 > more knowledgable members of the list.
  >>

what else is lurking in alt tech?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:27:16 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity

> From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>

> Obviously, this is a topic that I treat with more irreverance than
> reverance. But to give you an idea of the extent of the depths to which
> I am able to sink: in the Dagudashaag Sector is the Khandi subsector
> (subsector G -- this comes straight from the map in the Galactic mapping
> software). On the planet Khandi itself, I have established it as the
> headquarters of Khandi Confections, Inc., a corporation which distributes
> confections and other goodies sector-wide. Its "mascot" is known throughout
> the sector and in some neighbouring sectors as a friendly face, and has
> even been immortalized in a song whose title is his name: The Khandi Man.

The Khandi Man has been identified as a devil by the Church of the White
Tooth.  White Tooth doctrine warns that the Khandi Man can be invoked by
saying his name three times (or five times) while staring into a
mirror.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:50:28 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue

> From: SRKOALA@aol.com

> I'm writing a novel (at least the first three pages) and I would like the 
> ancers to a few questions:

Free suggestion: use your spell-check program.  Your market will
appreciate it, and they'll be more likely to buy your book.

> 1) would something like thist fit into Traveller?  A slow boat ship is 
> launched in 2017 and gets throwen across the galaxy by a wormhole
> (physisist, down, I have a way to take care of that minor technicality).  

That could make a good non-canon campaign for Traveller or 2300 AD. 
That could be an interesting approach to writing a novel:  run the
campaign, keep good records, then write the novel, making changes as
needed for dramatic purposes.  

> 3) Were can I find the rules for how an Irish Brogue works, or should I
> start channel surfing for dialog with an Irish character in is?

The best way to learn any language or accent is to date a native
speaker.  (This should often be supplemented by taking a course of
instruction.)

> 4) Any ideas for characters? So far I only have a couple (the max is 178

Again, try running it as a campaign and have your players generate
characters.  The way they play their characters will show you some new
approaches to the way people behave.  That's important for a writer, I
think:  to be observe other people carefully and write about people
different from him or herself behave.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 15:31:08 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks) 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
> ...
> >Assume a station of 28-30Ktons is on station at 10 million klicks.  Refueling 
> >it by hauling fuel out to it would be a logistical nightmare.  Assume 1 
> 
>   Even though all the components mentioned are armoured generously, you might
> want to move a bit further out if GG orbital trash is an issue. FWIW, we will
> likely want some smaller (1Kt?) specialized stations in closer; these will
> handle the specialized little tugs that will boost up spare fuel rocks to begin
> their cold, lonely journey to their new home. Assume that a 1Kt fuel-rock will
> take 15 days to get to 15-20 gigameters, so the added cost per Dt/L-Hyd will
> be over Cr 4, or possibly as low as 2.0-2.5; this should be cheaper than tugs.

Why bother with 1KT fuel rocks?  You'd need dozens of 'em.  Better to make one 
big station with 30KT tanks; it saves on the traffic nightmares.
 
> ...
> >Potato-Class Fueling Station
> >GN-P801142-000000-00000-0 7969MCr (yeah, that's right, 7.9 BILLION)
> >Crew 65.  Fuel 30000.  Cargo 0.  TL13.
> >
> >You need 3 of these.  Stealing an idea from Steve Hudson, I designed these 
> >suckers out of 50KT asteroids.  They've got 1 g accelleration & Power Plant-1. 
> 
>   It's a shame that you don't play TCS for cash :)  Please keep in mind that a
> large portion of these "ships" cost is their power plant - you should lose 20%
> of their cost if you use a TL F design. You also lose <20% off the system if you
> use multiples of a smaller design and get the series discount. I assume the 1G
> drive is also to drive up price; "fix" all the above and cost is under BCr 3.5
> per 50 Kt of stations.

I designed it at TL13 cause it's a good average TL for the average Imperial 
neighborhood.
 
>   Oh, and all you really need is a smaller station full of maintenance/support/
> admin people, and then the free floating tanks parked nearby MCr 0.9 Kt/L-Hyd.
> Say a 20 Kt station, for a total cost (100 Kt/L-Hyd) of BCr 1.5 before skimmers.
> 
> ... 
> >*someplace* that skimming takes 8 hours to accomplish, thus, 6 skimmers per 
> >hour for 8 hours.  The fuel load is purified on the way out to the jump limit.
> 
>   The little tank handlers - wherever based - will probably operate ~160 hours
> a week as expensive capital items, so we also need five crew per flitter - one
> maintenance guy and four small craft handlers (assumes 40 hours/week max.). A
> purifier could be installed either at the GG or at the tanker platform - it does
> depend on the demand for volatiles, as there should be a lot of by-products.

Could be.
 
> ...
> >> >   s'OK, we'll make it a disc :)  Ornamental elephants optional
> ...
> >3 50KT rocks.  24 billion credits thereabouts.
> 
>   As stated above, the cost is quite substantially lower if building of brick.
> Possibly as high as BCr 3.0 before auxiliary craft. The biggest cost will be
> the actual GG fuel skimmers; how did the hydrocarbon skimmers (?) from A:V
> work out cost-wise?

Thing about it is, your way does an end-run around the bridge rule of 2% of ship's volume to control the ship.  A 20 ton bridge on a 30KT boat don't fly; there's not enough control over the boat.  I calculate stuff on the *final* tonnage.  And yeah, a 50KT rock is gonna *NEED* that P1 & M1 to move back and forth between the 100 diameter limit.  Otherwise, the travel times increase to days & weeks, and you'll need more stations.  It's easier to keep track of 3 big stations than it is to keep track of *dozens* of 1KT rocks, especially if you're a Free Trader.  Traffic isn't as congested.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 15:33:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks) 

> Why not position the station over a high hydrographic percentage world
> instead of a gas giant?

Cause you want it at the 100 diameter limit.  You *could* put it over a high 
hydro planet, *if* you've got one handy.  But if it's populated, there's the 
possibility, microscopic as it may be, of an accident from a fuel skimmer.

With a GG, you crash, you're just out the skimmer & a couple men.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 15:38:36 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> 
> > >>> >Do the creators Familie Spofulam keep reins on the
> > >>> >family, or are we free to create a new member?
> > >>>
> > >>> I think probationary membership would be the way to go. It's really
> > >>> Roderick's decision, but he's incommunicado, practicing law somewhere in
> > >>> Canada ...
> > >>
> > >><sigh>  And Roderick showed *SO* much promise...
> > >
> > >It's a shame about Canada as well...
> >
> > As I'm in Canada myself, should I be concerned? Or at least vigilant?
> > Batten down the hatches? Get the FGMP-15 charged and ready?
> 
> I wasn't bemoaning the fact that he lives in Canada so much as the fact that
> he's a practicing l*wy*r.
> 
> Course, it *COULD* be worse.  He coulda been a serial killer.  Or an
> investment banker...
> 
> 
Well, there's still hope! At least he hasn't gone into politics.
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 15:44:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 

> In a message dated 99-05-07 18:38:59 EDT, you write:
> 
> << ObTrav:  What kinds of religions exist IYTU that 'most' locals think are 
> just a fast scam?  What religions IYTU are considered to be 'real religions'? 
>  IMTU, the Solomani Catholic Church, both branches (Orthodox & Sylean), are 
> thriving propositions.  The major point of contention seems to be whether or 
> not St Elvis did or did not shoot Nixon.  Another popular church in Reavers' 
> Deep is something I swiped directly from Andy Keith -- the Church of the 
> Future Man, straight outta his 'Rescue on Galatea'. >>
> 
> What about the "listing" religion?  The one from the AHL game, that to me 
> seems like an interesting divergence from the normal religions.  Has anyone 
> done a campain with a person who subscibes to the Runic relgion?

One of the characters in my CATN PBEM is a Lister.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 15:47:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> Fri, 07 May 1999 22:56:08 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >> I'm not talking about the "ship" catching it.  I'm saying for
> >> high traffic stations (and note: we are looking at why drop
> >> tanks would be even cheaper at high volumes, if you don't buy
> >> this, the previous issues remain) have ways.  At TL 15 stopping
> >> a chunk of ice isn't that big a deal.  It could have thrusters
> >> strapped on it and slows down as it gets close.
> >
> >E=mv.  Objects in motion remain in motion.  And if your thrusters fail *once*
> >when that ice chunk is centered on that station, you're gonna whack that
> >station out.
> 
> You are assuming it has to be centered directly on the stations.
> You wouldn't do it that way.

Safe jump distance from a large GG is on the order of 10 million clicks.  You 
know how big a 50KT shell of *ANY* kind looks at that distance???  Trust me, 
you'd wanna shoot the ice chunk right down their throat or chance missing it 
by a few thousand klicks.
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 15:49:44 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

> At 06:18 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Are they wearing Linus Torvald t-shirts?  Do they *HONOR* Linus Torvald 
> >t-shirts??  Can I equip my troops with Linus Torvald t-shirts before they
> >get there??????
> 
> Doo-be-doobie-dooo.....
> 
> (Obscure American beer commercial reference for all our non-US readers.)

Heheh.

'Beware the penguins!'

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 16:38:06 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Jump fuel 

> >"Fuel:  A ship requires fuel for its jump drives and for its power plant; the
> >power plant convrts fuel to energy for computers, jump drives, manuver
> >drives,
> >weapons, and screens.  Fuel tankage must be sufficient to contain a full load
> >for the power plant and the jump drive.  Additional tankage may be installed
> >as an option.  There is no cost for interior fuel tankage."
> >
> >BTW, this paragraph flat out says that while it may be *possible* to design
> >and build a ship that uses drop tanks for all jump fuel, it certainly ain't
> >*legal* by the rules.  And yes, the Gazelle *is* compliant in that it is
> >designed for Jump 4 performance *with* the tanks retained.
> 
> I think it would be possible (depends on your reading of the rules) but I
> see where you're coming from.

<nod>
 
> The really interesting thing is the paragraph supports the hydrogen bubble
> model for jump because it states the J-drive is powered by the powerplant.

I see yer point.  It all depends on how jump drives work IYTU.  In CT, the whole game is built on 'black box tech'.  You had stuff that worked.  *HOW* it worked wasn't explained, just that it did, & here was its game effect.  Little attention was paid to physics, since it was *JUST* a game.

IMTU, the theory behind jump drive is known, but only a handful really *understand* it.  It's a variation of the old 'you don't need a PhD in electrical engineering to turn on a lightswitch' handwave.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:41:51 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

test
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, May 08, 1999 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569


>> At 06:18 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>> >Are they wearing Linus Torvald t-shirts?  Do they *HONOR* Linus Torvald
>> >t-shirts??  Can I equip my troops with Linus Torvald t-shirts before
they
>> >get there??????
>>
>> Doo-be-doobie-dooo.....
>>
>> (Obscure American beer commercial reference for all our non-US readers.)
>
>Heheh.
>
>'Beware the penguins!'
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 16:53:55 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slow Boats, Gene Banks, Traveller and Irish Brogue

In a message dated 99-05-08 15:35:43 EDT, you write:

<< > I'm writing a novel (at least the first three pages) and I would like 
the 
 > ancers to a few questions:
 
 Free suggestion: use your spell-check program.  Your market will
 appreciate it, and they'll be more likely to buy your book.

xxxx
I'm planing on it.
xxxx
 
 > 1) would something like thist fit into Traveller?  A slow boat ship is 
 > launched in 2017 and gets throwen across the galaxy by a wormhole
 > (physisist, down, I have a way to take care of that minor technicality).  
 
 That could make a good non-canon campaign for Traveller or 2300 AD. 
 That could be an interesting approach to writing a novel:  run the
 campaign, keep good records, then write the novel, making changes as
 needed for dramatic purposes.  

xxxx
That's a good idea, if I can find enuff people to make it work I hope to do 
so.
xxxx

 > 3) Were can I find the rules for how an Irish Brogue works, or should I
 > start channel surfing for dialog with an Irish character in is?
 
 The best way to learn any language or accent is to date a native
 speaker.  (This should often be supplemented by taking a course of
 instruction.)

xxxx
I'll have to see if I can find one.
xxxx
 
 > 4) Any ideas for characters? So far I only have a couple (the max is 178
 
 Again, try running it as a campaign and have your players generate
 characters.  The way they play their characters will show you some new
 approaches to the way people behave.  That's important for a writer, I
 think:  to be observe other people carefully and write about people
 different from him or herself behave.  
  >>

Thanks for the ideas, do you, perehaps, wish to be part of it?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #589
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 590



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 
Re: Penguins
DGP
OT:Oklahoma/Kansas Tornado Relief
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569
Re : Drop Tanks (the ongoing saga)
Re: OT:Oklahoma/Kansas Tornado Relief
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: BD...
3I raising military forces
Re: Traveller Map -> Globe
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
G:T Far Trader - random thoughts and campaign seeds
Re: Starship Depreciation
WTH
Re: Bussard ramjets for VE2/G:Space
RE: Mozart In Mirrorshades

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 16:56:04 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 

In a message dated 99-05-08 15:51:48 EDT, you write:

<< One of the characters in my CATN PBEM is a Lister.
 
 Keven >>

Yours might be the page that I was thinking about.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 15:08:56 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Penguins

>> >Are they wearing Linus Torvald t-shirts?  Do they *HONOR* Linus Torvald 
>> >t-shirts??  Can I equip my troops with Linus Torvald t-shirts before they
>> >get there??????
>> 
>> Doo-be-doobie-dooo.....
>> 
>> (Obscure American beer commercial reference for all our non-US readers.)
>
>Heheh.
>
>'Beware the penguins!'

Good advice. The New Jersey Devils ignored that advice, and lost
their first-round series... and now the Penguins lead Toronto 1-0
in their best-of-seven. :)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 16:08:56 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: DGP

I tried to send this to the list earlier, but I think my wonky computer ate
it.
Does anyone have information relating to DGP's Traveller Digest magazine.
At least that is what I think it was called.
Did DGP  "own" the articles after publication or did the rights revert to
the authors upon the folding/sell/dissappearance of DGP?

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 14:16:37 PDT
From: "Gary Miles" <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com>
Subject: OT:Oklahoma/Kansas Tornado Relief

Okay, flame me if you consider this off-topic (which it is), but I really 
feel the need to challenge everyone on this list to do something (anything) 
to help the survivors of the massive tornadoes last week in Oklahoma and 
Kansas.

Here in Des Moines, Iowa, a local trucking company donated a half-dozen 
semis for hauling donated goods. In less than 24 hours, five of the trucks 
are packed full.

If there is a donation effort in your community, GIVE! I'm sure there are 
tons of clothes in your closets that haven't been worn since Reagan was 
president (my wife and I personally filled 14 trash bags with clothes from 
our closets, then went out and got 100 pounds of dog chow and 40 pounds of 
cat chow for the animal victims).

If there isn't a donation effort in your community, give whatever you think 
you can afford to the Red Cross, earmarked for OK and KS disaster relief. 
They can make a little go a long way.

If any of our regular list members live in the areas hit by the storms, our 
best wishes and prayers are with you. Good Luck.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled mailing list...

Gary


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 16:21:04 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> > Unfortunately, penguins dislike being thrown (or launched) and the result
> > of your plan would be a horde of electrically-charged killer penguins
> > stampeding across the battlefield to get their revenge.
> 
> Are they wearing Linus Torvald t-shirts?  Do they *HONOR* Linus Torvald
> t-shirts??  Can I equip my troops with Linus Torvald t-shirts before they get
> there??????
> 
If so, are they also wearing Red Hats?

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 21:38:45 "GMT"
From: "robocon@ozemail.com.au" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Drop Tanks (the ongoing saga)

From time to time, people claim to come up with revolutionary innovations.
A lot of the time, these claims are substantial ; but what about the con-men and the misguided?
Are drop tanks of the same status as the following :-
- - energy polarisers to make your car run better (a magnet attached to the fuel line) ;
- - potions to convert water into gasoline (a la Enricht in the US in WW1) ;
- - methods to extract methane from the air (a venture which cost Elf Aquitane in France millions in the late 1970s) ;
- - pick your own example of perpetual motion machines, antigravity, relativity disproofs, etc.

Do drop tanks really exist?
Were the TNS and the megacorps sucked in?

Hmm... another great Traveller conspiracy...

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

__________________________________________________________
Message sent by MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 17:41:14 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT:Oklahoma/Kansas Tornado Relief

In a message dated 99-05-08 17:20:45 EDT, you write:

<< Okay, flame me if you consider this off-topic (which it is), but I really 
 feel the need to challenge everyone on this list to do something (anything) 
 to help the survivors of the massive tornadoes last week in Oklahoma and 
 Kansas.

xxxx
It is off topic, but it is one of those things that should be brought up.
xxxx
 
 Here in Des Moines, Iowa, a local trucking company donated a half-dozen 
 semis for hauling donated goods. In less than 24 hours, five of the trucks 
 are packed full.
 
 If there is a donation effort in your community, GIVE! I'm sure there are 
 tons of clothes in your closets that haven't been worn since Reagan was 
 president (my wife and I personally filled 14 trash bags with clothes from 
 our closets, then went out and got 100 pounds of dog chow and 40 pounds of 
 cat chow for the animal victims).

xxxx
You assume that the list members were alive back then:)
xxxx
 
 If there isn't a donation effort in your community, give whatever you think 
 you can afford to the Red Cross, earmarked for OK and KS disaster relief. 
 They can make a little go a long way.
 
 If any of our regular list members live in the areas hit by the storms, our 
 best wishes and prayers are with you. Good Luck.
 
 We now return you to your regularly scheduled mailing list...
 
 Gary >>

Gary, thanks for brining this to the list, I hope that we all manage to do 
something to help those effected by the tornados, what goes around comes 
around.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 20:29:06 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>> One PC in AD&D uses a wand of wonder on a gelatinous cube coming through the
>> only door in the room.  He roled on the effects table and got 'turn target
>> to stone'.  The entire party died of suffication.

In the last AD&D game I played we (as a group) spent a couple of weeks
(gametime) chasing a ship called the 'Scarlet Herring'. The GM made a run
for it when we realised the play on words.

It seemed plausible at the time as some of the other vessels in port were
called things like the 'Blue Mullet' and the 'Yellow Swordfish'. The
'Scarlet Herring' seemed to be the most suspicious.

<sigh>

Dom (only a single key from Dim)

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:26:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: BD...

>Okay, well, if its cannon.

A *Cannon* is something that shoots projectiles. *Canon*, in Traveller
terms, is used to refer to the body of background material published over
past years.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 18:08:01 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: 3I raising military forces

One method the 3I might use to raise forces from among its member worlds is
like so:  when a world joins the Imperium, there's a clause in the contract
that says the world must provide military forces according to its ability.
Obviously, a world of nomadic hunter-gatherers won't be asked to provide
anything, unless the 3I needs troops with their special skills, like
operating in a harsh environment the nomads are accustomed to.  A rich,
developed world may be asked to furnish 1 division sized element, complete
with vehicles and equipment to Imperial standards, and have it be ready to
go anywhere the Emperor needs it to within a week.  That's a feudal style
model of raising an army.  Another way is to use Imperial tax revenue to
establish Imperial Army garrisons at strategic worlds (transport nexi and
stronghold worlds), and then recruit from all the worlds of the Imperium.
The recruits go to the nearest world with a garrison, undergo training, then
get assigned where their Emperor needs them.  A citizen could do a stint in
his own world's army/security forces, then enlist in the Imperial armed
forces to see the galaxy (or whatever strategic rockball on the Zho border
he gets sent to.) I depends on whether or not the Imperium is a free
society, with volunteer forces, or does the 3I conscript its soldiers?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 19:53:42 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Map -> Globe

>I have been mulling over this vs. true spherical triangles over
>the weekend.  I think that it is the way to go. the disadvantage
>is that the  distortion is more severe than the projection of
>spherical triangles.  I think that that is outweighed by the
>upsides, which are: (1) lines of latitude are straight lines on
the map. "How far north?" is a simple question (2) the math for 
>the mapping is really very simple, at least for us old guys who
>can't find their trig textbooks any more.

In this version, the direction of North and south varies with longitude, 
so the "top" of a hex is usually not due north, but at some angle to it.
It's easiest to see in the triangles that represent polar regions. If
horizontal lines represent lines of latitude, the length of a line from a
given point to the pole appears greater at the bottom corners of the
triangle than it does in the middle, while on the globe the distances are
the same. Directions for east and west are reflected accurately on the map
but distances are not. The correction for true east-west distance varies
with latitude.

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:48:18 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>We haven't really got much of a clue how the human brain works. We've
worked
>out some of the basic mechanics, but _how_ those basic mechanics combine to
>make an organ that can write Beethoven's 5th Symphony or come into school
with
>some bombs and guns and kill your classmates, we're _really_ clueless, no
>matter what we claim we know.

As far as I can tell, the only people who don't know how our brains work are
those who haven't bothered reading the textbooks, or those that  have, and
then for some philosophical or religious reason refuse to accept what they
have read.

The questions you're saying we can't answer above are not the _how_
questions, those are already answered. it's the _why_ questions, we can't
answer, and we have some damn good hypotheses/heuristics even for those,
though a truly correct answer to a "why" question.would need complete
enumeration of the current annd all the historical states of at least the
local universe, so is fundamentally impossible to answer.

It's pretty damn simple to understand how the human brain works, in general.
What we don't have is an accurate model of any individual brain such that we
can usefully predict it's behaviour when subject to any stimuli. Some
reactions to particular stimuli we have modelled accurately enough to be
generalized to most humans though, such as the effects of optic nerve
signals for instance.

Even the model is not fundamentaly difficult, it's just complex due to the
massive pararellism ( I know very few people who can handle parrallel
calculus, and I can only just deal with it ). But we don't need to be able
to mentally follow it if we can simulate it, but simulation  requires tons
of processing power, far more than we currently have.  In order to
effectivley simulate a human brain to the required degree (as opposed to
just mere AI which is already being done every day in your PlayStations ) we
need processing power of the same order of magnitude of the brain we're
trying to simulate, preferably a bit more for data collection and simulation
management.  As even the best computers we have today ( such as IBM's
teraflop machine) are about as complex as a smart insect, we have aways to
go before we can carry out that simulation.

>Most people in the 'data and programs are eternally separate' camp are
>blindered by the fact that the Turing model of computing is so successful,
so far.

It's also the _only_ model of computing available to us. Frankly I haven't
heard of any other models. There have been a few attempts, but they all
could be shown to just be special cases of  the Turing model. Neural nets,
for instance, are based on the Turing model as much as your hand calculator
is.

>For example, on a more abstract basis, that model breaks down with object
>oriented programming, objects can be data and program.

Not at all.  Objects can conceptually contain  data and methods, but the
object itself is just a data structure, in other words, it is data, pure and
simple. One or more of those pieces of data happens to be references to
executable code.

For that matter, executable code is just another form of data, except when
it is actually being executed.

>Waaay down at the heart
>of the silicon chip, since the Turing Model is hardwired into them,
computers
>today make the distinction between executable and data

Actually, they didn't.  The majority of systems determine whether a
particular byte/word is executable or data based on the context of the
currently executing program. If the processor expects, due to it's context,
an instruction in the next byte, it will treat that byte as an instruction.
If it turns out not to be an instruction, ( i.e: it doen't undrstand the
op-code ) it will jump to it's exeception handling location.

It was only when memory management units were integrated into processors
that this became slightly true. It was, and is, up to the OS to distinguish
between data and code, and until Unix (or for the wintel people, until
Windows NT ) most of them didn't  do a very good job. An on-chip MMU means
that the OS can have help in labelling what is executable and what isn't,
but even then that information is still stored in memory.

One could talk about instruction cache's and pipelines, but even there,
allthough the decision has been made prior to loading that this is
executable data, it's stilll data until it is actually executed.

> but what if the Turing
>Model isn't the only workable one? After all...the human brain doesn't
>_appear_ so far to follow that model.

It _does_ appear to do so. Again I suggest you read up on the subject. And
ignore Roger Penrose, he's out of his field, and does not understand comuter
science very well, if at all.

>If it did, the 'Expert System' AI people
>would have succeeded a long time ago.

They _did_ succeed a long time ago, way back in the late seventies early
eighties.
Unfortunately, most of what they could do with the available machines was
too limited to be of any real use, and funding was largely discontinued.

>And truthfully, modern chips don't necessarily make that distinction...it's
>been a _long_ time since I've done any assembler (hint: I was using the
6502
>instruction set ;-) but most modern register based chips only have a flag
bit
>to say whether a register holds an instruction or data, right? If something
>could manipulate that flag bit like you or I wiggle our fingers, well, then
it
>might be pretty darn easy for 'data' to be treated as 'executable' and vice
>versa, ESPECIALLY if while wiggling your finger you were physically
>rearranging the circuitry.

A register has always been able to hold either data or an instruction in
every machine I'm familiar with., including the 6502 family
A register does not carry out any execution, so as far as it''s concerned
it's completely irrelevant whether it's holding data or instructions. It
cannot distinguish between a binary sequence representing an opc-code and
one that doesn't.

>This argument is the heart of the battle between Pro- and Anti- virus folk
on
>this list, and like "Feudal Technocracy!" "Technological Feudalism!"
"Tastes
>Great!" "Less Filling!" is an argument without end.

I don't see why. All it takes is the people like yourself to accept that
we're _not_ talking about  _real_world_ "TL16" computers, because your
entire argument is based on that false premise.

We are talking about computers in a game that have been labelled "TL16", and
which aren't particulalry advanced compared to real world computers.  Hell,
our current 1999 computers are approximately TL14 or 15 (based on the stated
performance and size characteristics of these computers in Traveler)
already.

So when we are talking about Virus, we're talking about a system that could
invade modern computers and the ones we'll have in ten years. _not_ a system
that could invade the sort of "computers" that we might have after 2000
years of further development. (as if there will be anything even remotely
like a computer or a modern human being by then)

>At least no one's tried to convert anyone to a hamster via e-mail yet....

You obviously don't read the witchcraft groups.
<grin>

The problem you're having stems from the fact that Traveller _does_not_
represent a realistic extrapolation 2000 years into the future, it
represents a slight capability increase to 1970's technology populated with
1970's American cultural stereotypoes, and a few nods at what we've acheived
since the seventies.

There's a good reason for this, most modern players would be unable to play
in a realistic extrapolation, as it would be so completely alien in _all_
ways ( not just "computers" ) as to be unworkable. A realistic future
simulation game might seem to us to be more like playing a fantasy game, and
it  would be very hard for modern humans to even understand the information
pumped at them.

I recommend Queen of Angels by Greg Bear for a _mild_ version of this.

As a small illustration of this point, I will mention some _existing_
technology that does not appear in Traveller, and the widespread use of
which could dramatically change how we interact with people even in a few
decades.

IBM scientists developed a couple of years ago something known as a PAN or
"Personal Area Network" that has devices attached to items of clothing or
your body communicating with each other via the body's own bio-electric
field. This system was powered by the wearer's movements.

They then used this to exchange electronic "business cards" between two
people by _shaking_ hands_.

I can give you a hell of a lot more detail on this if neccessary, but that
alone should be enough for the people here to extrapolate on.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 23:37:38 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: G:T Far Trader - random thoughts and campaign seeds

Negotiants : A type of mobile broker, negotiants operate by staying on a
planet until they have amassed a suitable collection of speculative cargos,
and then they book space for themselves and their cargos aboard a ship. If
appropriately qualified, they may negotiate for working passage. A number
of negotiants may group together and form a Charter Party, and book an
entire ship. Neogtiants have the advantage of time - while an average Free
Trader faces regular mortgage payments, a negotiant is merely faced with
warehouse and hotel bills.

Salaried Brokers : A 30 point minimally-munchkinned broker should be able
to have Merchant-13, AK(Planet)-13, Market Analysis-12. Assuming they get
paid about $2000 a month, they could either be a 30 point Dependant (-3
points as an Employee) or some sort of Contact. Both in cash and points
terms it's worthwhile, because if you sling them either cash or a line of
credit, they can line up speculative goods for you (warehousing is a mere
Cr2/dton/day - G:TFT p66). At skill-13 on a WTN 3.5 world, they find goods
on a 7 ... if you visit the place once a month, the odds are strong they'll
have something waiting for you, and checked out at least some potential
markets (OK, theres a chance of being swindled, but life's like that ...).
They can also stay on planet, waiting for those phone calls from buyers
after the ship comes in, the cargos are loaded and unloaded and the
contracted ad agency gets to work <note to GMs ... have the Ad agency
demand a couple of points per skill level, just like Brokers do>.

Small Markets and Overcapacity : When I say small markets, I mean *small*
markets. Flexos looks to have 2 6.5 routes going Rimward (to Collace and
Dallia), which means they produce about 1750 dtons of cargo going rimward
per annum. This is 30 dtons a week. If 2 tramp traders turn up from
different directions, then things either get sorted out, or one of them
isnt going to make it's payments next month. Now, it's in the short term
interest of the world to let them cut each others throats to get
*something* going out, because this will mean the freight price goes thru
the floor but this will mean the planet gets a bad Reputation (hey, thats a
neat idea ... planetary cultures and starports get Quirks and stuff. Gotta
write up G:T Corporations ...), and traders stop turning up, and small
worlds *need* the tramps.

Therefore, the starport authorities should either expidite a market-sharing
arrangement, or assist either or both captains in finding a speculative
cargo, or both.

Note that markets without any routes have only tramp traders, so freight
rates for what cargo is there are at full 'tramp' rates - Cr 650 per parsec !

Corporate Structures :

<note to GM : only let em use this if they have Finance and Accounting skill>

If you own a ship, spin off a second unrelated company. This formnally
independant company then leases the ship off the first company. Because the
mortgage is owned by the first company, the second company is unencumbered
for purposes of borrowing money, and thus doesnt cop a -1 DM for having an
outstanding loan (that loan belongs to the first company, which merely
shares directors with the second company). You could also shift assets
between the two companies for when you need the same item to serve as
collateral for two (or more) loans, but thats getting into the matter
discussed on p46. Shifting the profits around might be a better idea, by
renegotiating the lease agreement when you need to shift profits around in
order to make sure the Annual Income turns up on the balance sheet of the
company that is about to go for the next loan.

Going LIC without the Hassles

<note to GM : see above)

Having His Mag as a shareholder has it's advantages, but it also leads to
that boring oversight thing. The correct method is to create a number of
subsiduary companies (one per planet), and have them wholly owned by the
holding corporation, which is a Limited Imperial Corporation. This way, the
books of the LIC are nice and simple, while each of the subsiduaries can
bask in the warm glow of being wholly owned by a LIC ("Arguvid Trading,
part of the District 268 Company LIC"). All the Ministry of Commerce gets
to see is a bank draft for their 2% of the dividends, plus an Annual Report
that says "Arguvid Trading remitted a profit of KCr 332, with KCr 219
retained. Shoshane Development announced a loss. Snellmore Group remitted a
profit of KCr 26. Total revenue of D268 LIC was therefore KCr 139, which is
hereby remitted to shareholders". Let em audit that ...

Market Manipulation 

<note to GM : if you want to do something right, do it yourself. Dont hire
PCs to do this ... see sidebar p112>

This is probably most effective when trying to destroy the value of a
stock. The easiest company to destroy is your own. If you arrange to lose
money in a given year, then for the investigation of a board director, then
negative press should follow, then the value of the company's stock should
head towards the cellar with all due speed.

All this bad news should result in very little competition for any
newly-released shares, which could be useful to push the ownership level
back up to over 50%.

The offending director can then be released, profits pulled back from the
hollow logs in which they were stashed, and positive press arranged.

Of course, if you notice being done to another company, then it could be an
excellent time to grab a strategic stake ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 19:53:47 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

On Mon, 3 May 1999
Jim MaClean wrote:

>Depreciation is an accounting convention.  Economists don't
>really believe in it.  An asset's value depends on what its use
>to you is and/or what others will pay you for it.  For a
>business asset like a starship, the only thing that matters is
>how much money it can make you and how much it costs to operate.

>Presumably an old ship hauls cargo just as well as a new one. 
>Maybe it's a little harder getting passengers, but assuming not,
>it earns just as much revenue as a new ship.  The only way an
>old ship becomes less valuable is if it costs more to maintain. 
>Presumably this is the case.  The value of a ship drops until
>the Return on Investment from buying an old ship matches that of
>buying a new ship less the greater operating costs.

   From a business POV, measuring the actual value of a starship
is a tricky problem.  If you could measure it on a given day (how?) 
you might find that it goes up and down depending on events (Hours 
on the jump drive, new models in competition, changes in trade 
patterns, etc.)  It's common experience that starships decline in 
value with age. (Well, OK maybe yours is a classic that's worth 
more to the local antique dealer than you paid for it,  but then 
it's already  an exception.)
  This decline in value with age is a cost of doing business, and
has to be be measured and accounted for. You usually do not find
out how much the starship changed in value until you actually
sell it, but the change in value occurred over the whole time it
was in use, not just on the day you sold it.  Businessmen prefer
to keep track of costs as they occur but don't want to try to
track the value of their assets from day to day, so they guess.
Depreciation is an estimate of the change in value of an asset
with an expected finite lifespan longer than the accounting
period, and different methods of depreciation are different 
ways to make this estimate.  Which method is "best" often depends 
on other factors than how well it reflects actual value at any given 
time.  The most important criterion may be "simplest" , "looks best on the
financial statements", or quite commonly, "reduces your income tax most".

 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 19:53:50 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: WTH

>Hmm, talking about something that will alow a person to determin
>what a map (the thing to trace into the plasic globe) will look
>like, rules for determing the mountain ranges and coast lines
>and what not, or is that what WTH does?
> -Stephen

WTH uses the regular Traveller unfolded icosahedron as the world
map and divides it into 500 hexes. It has rules for size and
density; temperature zones; figuring percentage of land and
water; sizes of tectonic plates, oceans, continents and islands;
Some on placement of terrain, and optional rules on atmospheric
composition.

One thing to be aware of is that you cannot trace a flat map onto
a sphere, or the reverse, without some distortion. The best you
can do is pick what kind of distortion you can live with and
where it occurs. WTH appears to imply the simplifed projection 
that has already been discussed on the list.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 17:53:02 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Bussard ramjets for VE2/G:Space

>Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:21:13 -0500
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species
>
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>I found lightsails in GURPS Vehicles, on page 31.  I haven't yet found
>any reference to Bussard ramjets in either GURPS Vehicles or GURPS
>Space.

There aren't any. David Pulver was advised that the physics behind them
were becoming less and less supportable (although they make great brakes),
so he didn't use space for them that could go to something else. There was
a pretty good article about magsails in Roleplayer #29.

M.A. Lloyd did a version in his Vehicles additions, which should be in the
SJ Games archives.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 17:06:37 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Mozart In Mirrorshades

Oops, I must have blown it.  Oh well :)
Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of ab
> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 1999 7:31 AM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Mozart In Mirrorshades
> 
> 
> > There was a story about the culture shock of a high tech society
> > exporting 'toys' to a lower tech society called 'Mozart In
> > Mirrorshades'.  Can't remember what book it was in, though.
> 
> I read this in a cyberpunk anthology called 'Mirrorshades' (I think).
> 
> >From memory the author is Bruce Sterling.
> 
> -AB
> 
> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #590
**********************************

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Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 9 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 591



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: GT space combat
Re: Computers and other things that might be handled in the same way
Re: Trav Rules on CD ...
Spiders
Re: Trav Rules on CD ...
Re: WTH
Re: WTH
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks...
Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 
You might not belive this...
Re: BD...
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks...
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed
Re: Drop tank numbers, 2nd Ed. HG
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: bad leaders

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 12:07:08 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>Most of the "programs" are in the way the brain is *wired*.

Hmm, that's debatable. I'd say _most_ of the programs are learned
behaviours.

The "hard-wired" stuff isn't all that hard wired, either. It's like you're
constructed with an EEPROM containing a few "programs"
(or to be more accurate, your neural net is constructed with some
connections and weightings already in place ).
Later trainings can actually modify the "pre-programmed"  ones.

>Most learned behaviors are in how the neural net is "trained". we still
>aren't sure *how* memories are stored.

Actually, we are pretty sure.

"memories" as in "digitized pictures of human faces" have been stored and
recognized using neural nets as long ago as 1987.

As all human memories are based on the equivalent of digitized information,
"digitized" via our senses,  it is highly llikely that humans use the same
process, especially as such a process would explain why destruction of large
amounts of brain materiel does not neccessarily destroy memories, each
memory is overlaid over the whole net, probably using an approach simlar to
redundant quad-tree compression, thus can be fully  recovered from a much
reduced set of the net.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 21:14:21 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT space combat

In a message dated 5/8/99 6:18:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, thrash@io.com 
writes:

<<  Battleships and battleriders
 should be able to ignore hits from bay weapons and stand hits from their
 own or smaller spinal weapons. >>

In plain terms, how much armor and meson screen DR's should a BB/BR have as 
an average? Tom Schoene has been helping me (really he's doing it for me...) 
convert a BR from HG to GT, and I was trying to see if I could raise the 
defenses higher. It's quite frustrating, as it seems as if GT ships are 
harder to design with good defenses...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 03:56:35 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Computers and other things that might be handled in the same way

- ----------
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Computers and other things that might be handled in the same
way
> Date: 5. toukokuuta 1999 19:37
> 
> Hmmm...Traveller hasn't really ever addressed AI's in a very thorough
> sense _other_ than in the context of Virus in TNE. T4 certainly does not
> have rules for AI's and neither, IIRC, does GT, though you could
> probably cobble stuff together from Gurps: Cyberpunk or something. AI in
> the OTU is a high tech level (TL-16+) item that's not well developed.
> 
See GURPS:Robots and GURPS:Reign of Steel for info and rules for AI's in
GURPS.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:46:36 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Trav Rules on CD ...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, 7 May 1999 9:41
Subject: Trav Rules on CD


>
>FYI.: Copyright doesn't work that way.  Simply, you'd be making a copy
>and you don't have the right.
>
>A PDF or HTML version of all the iterations of Traveller would be
>very convenient though.  I'd be willing to pay for CD with all of these,
>with errate incoroporated of course.  Since its just text for the vast
>majority, this shouldn't be too difficult and undertaking.
>
>I don't know how marketable it would be overall, but I'd buy 3
>to help encourage it being done.
>
>Marc? Is this even conceivable?  I suspect you could farm out the
>work of burning CDs very easily.
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>


To be honest Bloo, with the diversity of Traveller system players on this
list, I would assume that Marc could farm out to volunteers willing to take
on compiling rules for T4/5 as well as for all of the former systems to be
placed on their own CD's (most list members would do this gratis, just to be
mentioned in the credits!), and therefore be able to sell them at a
reasonable price.

I for one would love to own CT on CD and would think many others would also.
Then there are those who want MT, and T:TNE, etc...  After the rules CD,
there are possibilities for the Supplements and Adventures and select (if
not all) of the Magazine articles.  I'm sure there is a market if the work
is done by dedicated volunteers (who could do it for a credit listing and
are often more capable at this kind of thing than those who do it for a
living -- the work of love concept).

Just continuing a thought from you Bloo

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 12:10:35 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Spiders

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, 7 May 1999 9:44
Subject: Re: hair spray


>>
>> We are not nice people, are we?  What about spiders (black widows), ect?
>> -Stephen
>
>There's another filk song titled "Black Widows in the Privy". :-)
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

Here in Oz, we have the Red Backed Spider, a relative to the American Black
Widow, but not quite as poisonous as the BW.  I grew up hearing how deadly
it was (as antidotes of the time were rare -- so it did hold one of the
deadliest spider titles when I was a child).  I also recall a song about
them by an Aussie bushie...

There's a Red Back on the toilet seat,
when I was there last night.
I didn't see him in the dark,
but boy I felt his bite!
And now I'm here in Hospital,
a sad and sorry sight.
And I curse the Red Back Spider,
On the toilet seat last night!

That's the corus, I don't recall more of the funnier lyrics of the verses.

Sorry I can't tell you to sing it to the tune of "Old Smoky" or "Age of
Aquarius" or what ever, it is a kind of folk song here now with it's own
tune

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 22:28:08 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Trav Rules on CD ...

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>

<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>I for one would love to own CT on CD and would think many others would also.
Then there are those who want MT, and T:TNE, etc...</pre>
</blockquote>

<p><br>Make that two - I would practically die to get CT on a CD-ROM disk..plus
all the extras that have appeared on this list from time to time.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>--
<br>___________________________________________________________
<br>&nbsp;J-Man
<br>&nbsp;ICQ# 2843475
<br>&nbsp;Email : j-man@iname.com
<br>&nbsp;Home Page : <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/">http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/</A>
<br>___________________________________________________________
<br>&nbsp;</html>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 22:25:58 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: WTH

In a message dated 99-05-08 20:00:04 EDT, you write:

<< WTH uses the regular Traveller unfolded icosahedron as the world
 map and divides it into 500 hexes. It has rules for size and
 density; temperature zones; figuring percentage of land and
 water; sizes of tectonic plates, oceans, continents and islands;
 Some on placement of terrain, and optional rules on atmospheric
 composition.
 
 One thing to be aware of is that you cannot trace a flat map onto
 a sphere, or the reverse, without some distortion. The best you
 can do is pick what kind of distortion you can live with and
 where it occurs. WTH appears to imply the simplifed projection 
 that has already been discussed on the list. >>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 22:27:01 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: WTH

In a message dated 99-05-08 20:00:04 EDT, you write:

<< WTH uses the regular Traveller unfolded icosahedron as the world
 map and divides it into 500 hexes. It has rules for size and
 density; temperature zones; figuring percentage of land and
 water; sizes of tectonic plates, oceans, continents and islands;
 Some on placement of terrain, and optional rules on atmospheric
 composition.
 
 One thing to be aware of is that you cannot trace a flat map onto
 a sphere, or the reverse, without some distortion. The best you
 can do is pick what kind of distortion you can live with and
 where it occurs. WTH appears to imply the simplifed projection 
 that has already been discussed on the list. >>

Interesting, is there a place online with the rules that in in WTH?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 19:54:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

...
>At least no one's tried to convert anyone to a hamster via e-mail yet....

  FS did, last year, IIRC...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 99 18:24:26 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology)

On 05/08/99 at 03:44 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:

>> What about the "listing" religion?  The one from the AHL game, that to me 
>> seems like an interesting divergence from the normal religions.  Has anyone 
>> done a campain with a person who subscibes to the Runic relgion?

>One of the characters in my CATN PBEM is a Lister.

So is Lady Ryobi in my AKUS PBEM...at least she told Mira she was. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 22:55:59 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #569 

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > 
> <<snip>>
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, penguins dislike being thrown (or launched) and the result
> > > of your plan would be a horde of electrically-charged killer penguins
> > > stampeding across the battlefield to get their revenge.
> > 
> > Are they wearing Linus Torvald t-shirts?  Do they *HONOR* Linus Torvald
> > t-shirts??  Can I equip my troops with Linus Torvald t-shirts before they get
> > there??????
> > 
> If so, are they also wearing Red Hats?
> 
> <<snip>>

I got a red hat here *SOMEPLACE*...

Course, it ain't an *official* Red Hat red hat, but still...  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 13:06:53 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks...

- -----Original Message-----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 8 May 1999 12:06
Subject: Stupid Traveller Tricks


>
>If any of you have any similar anecdotes, of less-than-intelligent
>things done by players, post 'em here!
>
>-- g
>
>
>     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
>cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
>        "There is no longer any normal to be"
>                                 -- Gary Numan
>
>
>

Back in an old CT campaign I once ran, the PC's had an extended
"Serpent-Class" S/C (I think it was called... from Scouts and Assassins?).

They had found a deserted Zho base somewhere in the Spinward Marches fought
their way through the automated security, managed to open those doors you
don't imagine they would open (operable they were, you just underestimate
the players ability to do so -- an otherwise pleasant surprise when they
show you, you were wrong).  Basically, they went through a load of sh...
errr, bother to find a handful of Zho BD and weaponry, and three damaged
security/warbots.

They weren't stupid enough to want to keep and use the Zho equipment in the
Imperium (facing questions they didn't care to be asked as the base was in a
restricted area), but they figured they could sell it on the black market.
But the bots were toys they felt they could use after an assassin nearly
took them all out along with their vessel (but that's another story if
anyone wants to hear it).

They figured they could repair the bots, keep them hidden on board the ship,
possibly disguised as something else, but after they fixed them, they would
work on how to hide them.

Well, the engineer/mechanic/computer wiz (I don't recall Robotics being a
skill back then?) was the guy with the best skills to do the job, so he set
about the task, taking up a workbench in the engine room.  He managed to
bypass some security circuits and fire one of the beasts up.  However, as it
had to reconfig it's system due to the damage it had suffered before the
PC's found it, it just hovered there for several moments.  After a couple of
minutes, the PC started tweaking other settings/switches/buttons which
caused the thing many conflicts that it could fix itself, but needed about
15 minutes to sort out!

The player also found that the Zho code was well beyond anything he was
capable of, and he figured the thing was really broken and went to get a
coffee, he would come back with the drink and fiddle some more, hopefully
learning something as he went.  While he was away, he stopped to tell the
rest of the group what had happened and what he was going to do, so
40-minutes later, he returned to the engine room to continue to tinker with
the new toy.

But in the mean time, the bot had finished scanning the local and rectifying
conflicts caused by our engineer (I worked on the assumption that these
programs a rather huge, yet still reasonably quick to self diagnose and self
repair -- this was the far future).  Anyway, it was a black ending for
several PC's.  The poor bewildered engineer didn't even see the warbot
hovering above the powerplant and never knew what hit him (IIRC, these
things packed a large punch, especially against unarmoured humans?).
Another player "suddenly became suspicious" and I allowed him to go to the
first PC's assistance.

*Zap*

Two PC's down!

This time a third and a fourth decided they would go to the aid of the first
two.  #3 opened the door, looked in and about and moved into the engine
room.  Moving slowly, carefully, looking about for the bot...

*Zap*

Three down!!!  #4 punched the stud and closed the door, not seeing where the
shot came from.  Then he opened the door again, but the bot had a bead on
the door and as soon as the PC stepped in...

*Zap*

Four down.  The Ship's Captain (PC #5) decided to lock down the engine room
and get to a friendly port alive.  Two of the four PC's died on their feet,
the other two died over the following 24 hours.

The silliness?  All PC's going to the aid of their friends went in with
T-shirts and shorts for armour, none took weapons (not that that would have
helped).  And each PC saw that it only took 1x hit to take out the man
before them, yet bopped on in anyway!  What did they have available?  At
worst, their own personal armour and weapons, at best, the Zho BD and
weapons (although, I don't recall if there was any limiting factors to it's
use... this was some time ago).

The Captain ended up hiring a handful of NPC's and four new PC's to clear
out the bot from the engine room.  They sold the other two on the black
market and what was left of the "rogue" for parts!  Funny, at the time the
players were pissed (mainly with themselves) about losing their characters,
but when we catch up and talk games, we have a laugh if this comes up in
conversation  :^)

- --  The Roc
     (Who does love to hear gaming anecdotes)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 23:09:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Science and Sanity (Was Re: Scientology) 

> On 05/08/99 at 03:44 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:
> 
> >> What about the "listing" religion?  The one from the AHL game, that to me 
> >> seems like an interesting divergence from the normal religions.  Has anyone 
> >> done a campain with a person who subscibes to the Runic relgion?
> 
> >One of the characters in my CATN PBEM is a Lister.
> 
> So is Lady Ryobi in my AKUS PBEM...at least she told Mira she was. ;->

So 'Gospazha Grazhdanka' is a Lister, eh?

Good thing she don't speak Russki very well...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:39:38 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: You might not belive this...

Try this:
http://www.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=q&kl=XX&q=How+do+I+learn+an+Irish+Ac
cent%3F&search=Search

You might not belive #4...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:41:15 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: BD...

In a message dated 99-05-08 18:32:33 EDT, you write:

<<  >Okay, well, if its cannon.
 
 A *Cannon* is something that shoots projectiles. *Canon*, in Traveller
 terms, is used to refer to the body of background material published over
 past years.
 >>

opps, Cannon=canon
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:46:51 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks...

In a message dated 99-05-08 23:08:57 EDT, you write:

<< They weren't stupid enough to want to keep and use the Zho equipment in the
 Imperium (facing questions they didn't care to be asked as the base was in a
 restricted area), but they figured they could sell it on the black market.
 But the bots were toys they felt they could use after an assassin nearly
 took them all out along with their vessel (but that's another story if
 anyone wants to hear it). >>

Why not?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 20:43:01 +0000
From: Bradley Houston <brhoust@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

On Sat, 08 May 1999 05:09:03 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> >Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
>> ...
>> >>   Please note that per TCS, p.14, the tanks themselves only cost 
>KCr 80
>> >> per set; the extra KCr 10 in HG2 appears to be brackets on the 
>ship.
>> >
>> >Per HG2, drop tanks are 10KCr + 1KCr per ton carried.  It's on pg 
>27.
>> 
>>   TCS preceded HG2?
>
>Aint got a copy of TCS around anymore.  My HG2 book has a copyright 
>date of 
>1980.  It's 2nd Edition.  I think HG1 came out in '79.
>

TCS is copyrighted 1981 and in the first few pages says to make sure "You
have the 1980 version of HG which replaces the 1979 version." 

>> ...
< big snip >

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 23:30:34 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)

I ran an underwater campaign with entirely aquatic elves and stuff of that
nature and I could not for the life of me convince the mage in the lightning
bolt was not a good spell to learn.   so the rest of the group did it for me.

Chris Seamans wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 9:53 PM
> Subject: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D) (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)
>
> >Well, since AD&D has been brought up, here's two:
> >
> >The mage letting off a shocking grasp (electric attack - travels through
> >conductors) in an all-steel vault....
>
> I can top that one. In a campaign I played in several years ago our party
> was in a sewer, waist-deep in water. We were fighting gators or crocs or
> something mundane like that. Our mage panics and casts lightning bolt into
> the crock infested water.
>
> The very same mage screwed up many times in his choice of spells or magic
> items.

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 23:34:39 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > The group's 'demolitions expert' (skill-0) used 5 pounds of C4 to 'open' a
> > wall safe...

...snip...

> > One PC in AD&D uses a wand of wonder on a gelatinous cube coming through the
> > only door in the room.  He roled on the effects table and got 'turn target
> > to stone'.  The entire party died of suffication.

This is where the C4 was needed.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:06:52 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed

Sat, 08 May 1999 01:32:15 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>(Though it was interesting to see Steve's analysis with
>>high jump ships.  He was a bit terse, but it seems that
>>even if you do expend them, you can come put ahead).

>  Hey, it looked like the weather was clearing up to make for a nice jog.
>I was wrong :(  What did I miss covering?

I dropped out of the debate for a while to make sure the proposal
my job depends on got out.  You went jogging.  You win in the
"has a life" contest!  :-)

I was refering to you post, which I deleted so I can't go back
an refer to.  I didn't look at it carefully, but it was my
impression that a high jump ship in HG can still come out
ahead with disposable drop tanks.  But I just skimmed it
and you were a bit terse, so I didn't wan't to commit myself.
(I worked through it all in GT, but I don't know the HG rules
as well :-).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:18:26 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers, 2nd Ed. HG

Sat, 8 May 1999 20:15:57 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>>>The numbers come straight from High Guard 2nd Edition, pg 27 paragraph 5.  I
>>>directly quote the source:

>>Yes, if you want to take what is said in CT without question, then yes,
>>they work just like you say they do because CT says that is  what happens.
>>That is missing the point that it just doesn't make sense.

>Right you are, David. Just like piracy, really...
>
>No, no! Don't hit me! Please! I'll be good! I promise!

Well Hans, I never disagreed that if if piracy was unrealistic,
then it was indeed a problem.  (Of course that "if" lies the
basis for all those post.  :-).  That is why I mentioned
the bit about "feeling each other's pain".  (As our glorius
American president would say :-).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:29:38 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

Sat, 08 May 1999 15:47:12 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>> >E=mv.  Objects in motion remain in motion.  And if your thrusters fail
>>*once*
>> >when that ice chunk is centered on that station, you're gonna whack that
>> >station out.

>> You are assuming it has to be centered directly on the stations.
>> You wouldn't do it that way.

>Safe jump distance from a large GG is on the order of 10 million clicks.  You
>know how big a 50KT shell of *ANY* kind looks at that distance???  Trust me,
>you'd wanna shoot the ice chunk right down their throat or chance missing it
>by a few thousand klicks.

Well, I wouldn't put a jump station outside of a gas giant.  I
would put it next to the main port.  But in any case, you basic
point that space is big is correct, but the enduring lesson
is that it is _hard_ to hit accidentally from any distance.

The ice chunks would be "caught" and put in orbit around the
main world for later use.  You wouldn't be trying to catch
them just before use (which would require knowing when you
were going to jump months before hand when you "threw" them).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 13:47:14 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

>
>Why in god's green didn't they use kerocene or gasoline?  One flare gun
>round and the problem would have gone 'up in smoke'.  If they used RDX
>instead boom!
>
>Charles L.
>

Not the point of such a thread... it's the fact they did what they did in
the first place, otherwise there's no need to post the stories  :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 18:51:12 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: bad leaders

From:           	shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date sent:      	Sat, 8 May 1999 03:27:15 PST

>In mail you write:

>> General A. Burnside, Union Army, US Civil War.  Great peacetime
>> administrator, utter incompetant when it came to leading soldiers in
>> battle.  After nearly winning a fight, onlt to order his men into a
>> deathtrap, Lincoln remarked that only Burnside "could manage such a feat,
>> to wring such a defeat from the jaws of victory."

>And then there's General McClellan. To quote Lincoln again, "If General
>McClellan isn't using the Army of the Potomac, I wonder if I might
>borrow it for a bit?"

McClellan wasn't a "bad leader" as such. He was a superb admistrator
and extremely charismatic leader. He single handedly rebuilt the Union
Army after 1st Bull Run and turned it into the war winning force latter
wielded by Sherman, Grant et al. However he was not a field commander
and more than that, he knew he was not suitable to command an army
in the field. He strongly recommended that Lincoln did not put him in
command of the Army of the Potomec. However Lincoln ignored his
advice and put him in command anyway. McClellan was a staff officer
par excellance who was placed in a command position he knew he
could not fufill.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #591
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 9 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 592



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT space combat
Re: Niven's Known Space species
Re: Fun with nukes
Re: Disposal of .....
Re: I'm BAAAaaaack!
Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam
_Not_ A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks)
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks) 
Re: Penguins 
Re: GT space combat questions
Re: Warlord
Re: _Not_ A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Mozart In Mirrorshades
Stupid Traveller Tricks:  The Air/ Raft Chase
Re: Jesse has been found
GT: Far Trader trade route question
Re: Niven's Known Space species
Re: Disposal of .....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 00:08:32 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT space combat

Sat, 8 May 1999 21:14:21 EDT, Sethkimmel@aol.com
>In plain terms, how much armor and meson screen DR's should a BB/BR have as
>an average? Tom Schoene has been helping me (really he's doing it for me...)
>convert a BR from HG to GT, and I was trying to see if I could raise the
>defenses higher. It's quite frustrating, as it seems as if GT ships are
>harder to design with good defenses...

Amour seems to be mostly to prevent you from taking damage from
small ships.  It is hard to effectively armor yourself against
a ship of similar size and still have any decent acceleration.

This is, AFAIK, to prevent combats from bogging down as ships
plug away at each other without effect.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 00:41:17 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

...
><<   Has anyone actually done conversions of stuff from the Ringworld
> game to any version of Traveller? >>
>
>HNoI and the other ship LB, would be interesting, how would you do the 
>ramships?

  I was thinking more of the lifeforms rather than the technologies.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 00:59:36 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Fun with nukes

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 12:49 PM 5/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >I'd love to see a statistical breakdown of the selected targets, to see if
> >there's a particularly popular place to obliterate.
>
> So far, I've destroyed my home, Imperium Games, Ft. Benning Ga, my job, San
> Francisco Airport,

That is what that glow was driving by...

Damn now I'll have to decon the 450lsc....

>

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 01:02:43 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Disposal of .....

Guys I have only one thing to say on this subject....

A friend will help you move, A true friend will help you move a body.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 01:10:24 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: I'm BAAAaaaack!

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Mad scramble to back up data, transfer my account info, fix my ISP
> problem, etc etc, and here I am, back with you and currently
> un-employed in the Real World (tm).

So want to start a mid week Game?
- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 01:39:24 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Adding to Famile Spofulam

Michael Peters wrote:

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> >
> > > >>> >Do the creators Familie Spofulam keep reins on the
> > > >>> >family, or are we free to create a new member?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I think probationary membership would be the way to go. It's really
> > > >>> Roderick's decision, but he's incommunicado, practicing law somewhere in
> > > >>> Canada ...
> > > >>
> > > >><sigh>  And Roderick showed *SO* much promise...
> > > >
> > > >It's a shame about Canada as well...
> > >
> > > As I'm in Canada myself, should I be concerned? Or at least vigilant?
> > > Batten down the hatches? Get the FGMP-15 charged and ready?
> >
> > I wasn't bemoaning the fact that he lives in Canada so much as the fact that
> > he's a practicing l*wy*r.
> >
> > Course, it *COULD* be worse.  He coulda been a serial killer.  Or an
> > investment banker...
> >
> >
> Well, there's still hope! At least he hasn't gone into politics.

Or  Insurance....

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 01:40:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: _Not_ A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
...
>You don't get it. The life form may "live" in computers, but that gives
>it no more advantage in dealing with them than the fact that we live in
>biological organisms gives us in dealing with such. 
>
>It's like saying that because you are organic, you can "take over"
>an organism that was *built* by expert biological engineers and
>*designed* to do only certain things.   

  On which note it should be pointed out that people who find the critters
from the movies Alien, etc., too wimpy for words can check out real danger
by reading Christopher Rowleys SF in general, but his "Vang..." books in
particular.

  Your PC's would never treat a jellyfish incautiously again (actually,
being dumb %&^$#'s, they'd mostly die horribly - if they were lucky...)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 01:40:58 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
...
>>  4) shippers provide J2+ service for same cost as J1 IYTU?
>Yeah.  Prices are for 1 jump.

  OK. Do you have any reason to believe that this makes sense in equivalent
RW experience, or should in the OTU? Or IYTU?

...
>>  2) how do more accurate (& favourable) numbers work out?
>Dammifiknow.  Define more accurate & favourable numbers.

  Trips more often that every two weeks - would your players freely choose
to not make 30-35 trips per year if trying to make a profit? As traders can
carry passengers and earn more KCr/Dt in OTU, why would this not be reflected
in some way in revenue projections? And of course the "real" ship cost implied
by the discount for series ship production reduces the single biggest expense
(mortgage payments) by 20% - not counting this in assessing the profitability
of a hull size/performance envelope is at least faintly bizarre.

...
>OK, but what are you basing your figures on?  I don't find *any* references in 
>CT about charging more for higher jumps.
  
  Correct; IIRC the assumption of premium rates is a proviso that I've
included in the discussion. To attempt to discuss the economics of the
Traveller universe (which is, at least allegedly, fictional) in a serious
fashion without that consideration seems pointless.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 01:41:42 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks)

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks) 
...
>> take 15 days to get to 15-20 gigameters, so the added cost per Dt/L-Hyd will
>> be over Cr 4, or possibly as low as 2.0-2.5; this should be cheaper than
tugs.
>
>Why bother with 1KT fuel rocks?  You'd need dozens of 'em.  Better to make one 
>big station with 30KT tanks; it saves on the traffic nightmares.

  OK - I'll make a 37.5 Kt fuel rock; but I shan't build a station that pays
through the nostrils for a huge source of EP's that it doesn't need. BTW, it
may be apparent that HG2 is not the best design system for what are much more
nearly industrial facilities than spacecraft.

  As for traffic nightmares, frankly I think the issue is going to be made
worse by having huge traffic volumes going to as few large stations as is
possible; in this respect B:5 is a fairly poor idea.

...
>I designed it at TL13 cause it's a good average TL for the average Imperial 
>neighborhood.

 Wuss - my original station design of last week was TL C - an extra multiplier!
  :)

... 
>> purifier could be installed either at the GG or at the tanker platform -
it does
>> depend on the demand for volatiles, as there should be a lot of by-products.
>
>Could be.

  Well, if there's only H2 in the GG, then we can rent space to researchers
who want to debate whether it was the Ancients who were responsible... (?)

...
>Thing about it is, your way does an end-run around the bridge rule of 2% of
ship's volume to control the ship.  A 20 ton bridge on a 30KT boat don't
fly; there's not enough control over the boat.  I calculate stuff on the
*final* tonnage.  And yeah, a 50KT rock is gonna *NEED* that P1 & M1 to move
back and forth between the 100 diameter limit.  Otherwise, the travel times
increase to days & weeks, and you'll need more stations.  It's easier to
keep track of 3 big stations than it is to keep track of *dozens* of 1KT
rocks, especially if you're a Free Trader.  Traffic isn't as congested.

  The fuel tanks aren't attached to the station; the station has a fully legal
HG2 bridge allocation - although the gods (G.O.O.'s, etc.) know what it is or
what they do with it. M1 isn't needed; a specialized pusher tug can provide
fractional (well, micro...) G's as desired - we're doing corrections and long-
term adjustments here, not trying to render dinosaurs extinct*.

        * hey - this has weapons possibilities!

  We seem to disagree about what's most efficient for minimizing traffic issues
but you'll concede that one of the two approaches should work?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 05:09:06 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> Sat, 08 May 1999 15:47:12 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >> >E=mv.  Objects in motion remain in motion.  And if your thrusters fail
> >>*once*
> >> >when that ice chunk is centered on that station, you're gonna whack that
> >> >station out.
> 
> >> You are assuming it has to be centered directly on the stations.
> >> You wouldn't do it that way.
> 
> >Safe jump distance from a large GG is on the order of 10 million clicks.  You
> >know how big a 50KT shell of *ANY* kind looks at that distance???  Trust me,
> >you'd wanna shoot the ice chunk right down their throat or chance missing it
> >by a few thousand klicks.
> 
> Well, I wouldn't put a jump station outside of a gas giant.  I
> would put it next to the main port.  But in any case, you basic
> point that space is big is correct, but the enduring lesson
> is that it is _hard_ to hit accidentally from any distance.

A gas giant is about the best place to fill up your tanks.  No pesky aquatic 
natives around to give you any grief.  Thing is, though, there's not much 
water vapor percentagewise in a gas giant's atmosphere, so you'd likely be 
shipping LHyd not ice.  Unless of course you come up with a good way to freeze 
LHyd and keep it solid for a couple years or so...
 
> The ice chunks would be "caught" and put in orbit around the
> main world for later use.  You wouldn't be trying to catch
> them just before use (which would require knowing when you
> were going to jump months before hand when you "threw" them).

That still means a lotta tonnage flying around in various orbits.  The easiest 
way to deal with it would be use low-energy Holmann transfer orbits.  Maybe 
*your* ship is leaving right now, but the iceteroids now leaving the gas giant 
will fuel somebody a year or so from now.  *SOMEBODY* will buy it, and any 
shortfalls in fuel can be brought up from the surface of teh main world.

Thing is, you can do this stuff.  You just can't do it dirt cheep.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 05:14:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
> ...
> >>  4) shippers provide J2+ service for same cost as J1 IYTU?
> >Yeah.  Prices are for 1 jump.
> 
>   OK. Do you have any reason to believe that this makes sense in equivalent
> RW experience, or should in the OTU? Or IYTU?

Beats me, but then, like I say, I've not seen anything to contradict it in the 
rules.  They flat out say the going rate is 1KCr/ton (CT/HG, dammit, *NOT* 
somebody's homegrown system)
 
> ...
> >>  2) how do more accurate (& favourable) numbers work out?
> >Dammifiknow.  Define more accurate & favourable numbers.
> 
>   Trips more often that every two weeks - would your players freely choose
> to not make 30-35 trips per year if trying to make a profit? As traders can
> carry passengers and earn more KCr/Dt in OTU, why would this not be reflected
> in some way in revenue projections? And of course the "real" ship cost implied
> by the discount for series ship production reduces the single biggest expense
> (mortgage payments) by 20% - not counting this in assessing the profitability
> of a hull size/performance envelope is at least faintly bizarre.

A lotta that would depend on where the main world is.  If it's within the 100 
diameter jump limit of the star, or it's a moon of a gas giant (both of which 
have happened IMTU, IMCA, btw), then it takes a bit *longer* to get to a safe 
jump point.
 
> ...
> >OK, but what are you basing your figures on?  I don't find *any* references in 
> >CT about charging more for higher jumps.
>   
>   Correct; IIRC the assumption of premium rates is a proviso that I've
> included in the discussion. To attempt to discuss the economics of the
> Traveller universe (which is, at least allegedly, fictional) in a serious
> fashion without that consideration seems pointless.

House rule, eh?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 05:27:46 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks) 

> >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks) 
> ...
> >> take 15 days to get to 15-20 gigameters, so the added cost per Dt/L-Hyd will
> >> be over Cr 4, or possibly as low as 2.0-2.5; this should be cheaper than
> tugs.
> >
> >Why bother with 1KT fuel rocks?  You'd need dozens of 'em.  Better to make one 
> >big station with 30KT tanks; it saves on the traffic nightmares.
> 
>   OK - I'll make a 37.5 Kt fuel rock; but I shan't build a station that pays
> through the nostrils for a huge source of EP's that it doesn't need. BTW, it
> may be apparent that HG2 is not the best design system for what are much more
> nearly industrial facilities than spacecraft.

Well, I *did* see a design for a 50 ton orbital tug in a High Passage once.  
Can't remember which issue, though.  Course, to move a 37KT rock, you'd need a 
*BIG* tug...
 
>   As for traffic nightmares, frankly I think the issue is going to be made
> worse by having huge traffic volumes going to as few large stations as is
> possible; in this respect B:5 is a fairly poor idea.

Depends on how big each ship is rather than how many ships there are.  a 20KT 
freighter is less of a traffic nightmare than 100 Free Traders, though they 
both add up to 20KT.
 
> ...
> >I designed it at TL13 cause it's a good average TL for the average Imperial 
> >neighborhood.
> 
>  Wuss - my original station design of last week was TL C - an extra multiplier!
>   :)

<waving at you using only 1 finger>
 
> ... 
> >> purifier could be installed either at the GG or at the tanker platform -
> it does
> >> depend on the demand for volatiles, as there should be a lot of by-products.
> >
> >Could be.
> 
>   Well, if there's only H2 in the GG, then we can rent space to researchers
> who want to debate whether it was the Ancients who were responsible... (?)
> 
> ...
> >Thing about it is, your way does an end-run around the bridge rule of 2% of
> ship's volume to control the ship.  A 20 ton bridge on a 30KT boat don't
> fly; there's not enough control over the boat.  I calculate stuff on the
> *final* tonnage.  And yeah, a 50KT rock is gonna *NEED* that P1 & M1 to move
> back and forth between the 100 diameter limit.  Otherwise, the travel times
> increase to days & weeks, and you'll need more stations.  It's easier to
> keep track of 3 big stations than it is to keep track of *dozens* of 1KT
> rocks, especially if you're a Free Trader.  Traffic isn't as congested.
> 
>   The fuel tanks aren't attached to the station; the station has a fully legal
> HG2 bridge allocation - although the gods (G.O.O.'s, etc.) know what it is or
> what they do with it. M1 isn't needed; a specialized pusher tug can provide
> fractional (well, micro...) G's as desired - we're doing corrections and long-
> term adjustments here, not trying to render dinosaurs extinct*.

Just as long as those tanks *STAY* disconnected from the station.  No physical 
connections.

So how big is your tug, and did you remember to allocate enough bridge space 
for it?
 
>         * hey - this has weapons possibilities!

Too small to be a dino killer.  You'd need something on the order of a couple 
cubic clicks moving on the order of 35-40 klick/secs.  37KT ain't much at all. 
 I'd tell ya how big it is in real world radius, but I don't have a calculator 
around at the moment and I'm too burnt out to deal with one anyways.
 
>   We seem to disagree about what's most efficient for minimizing traffic issues
> but you'll concede that one of the two approaches should work?

'Working' was never the question.  Expense has always been the question.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 05:38:01 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Penguins 

> >> >Are they wearing Linus Torvald t-shirts?  Do they *HONOR* Linus Torvald 
> >> >t-shirts??  Can I equip my troops with Linus Torvald t-shirts before they
> >> >get there??????
> >> 
> >> Doo-be-doobie-dooo.....
> >> 
> >> (Obscure American beer commercial reference for all our non-US readers.)
> >
> >Heheh.
> >
> >'Beware the penguins!'
> 
> Good advice. The New Jersey Devils ignored that advice, and lost
> their first-round series... and now the Penguins lead Toronto 1-0
> in their best-of-seven. :)

Now if they can just stay economically viable, they *MIGHT* actually have a 
season next year.  Particularly if Lemeuix and friends buy them up.

On another note, the Wings pulled one out of their rectal cavities to beat the 
Avalanche 3-2 in overtime to take the first game of the series.  I'm just 
curious as to who they (the Wings) will be facing in the Cup matches.

Keven
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 01:30:40 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: GT space combat questions

>I'm converting a HG design into GT, and I have some questions. Spinal mounts 
>do max damage of 60,000 DR, correct? If so; would that mean I would need 
>enough meson screen modules to negate 60,000 DR? 

Max damage is 6 DICE * 10,000 or 360,000.

Hopefully you will be at long range (i.e. half damage range) - so max damage is
likely to be 180,000 and an average of *only* 105,000. Mesons screens to absorb
that much damage would take up 10% of your ship on a 10000 DT hull.

A 10000 DT hull has 255,000 hit points and without a meson screen it would
take an average of three long range hits to disable it, and fifteen to destroy
it. Though you would take a "major damage effect" with every hit.

For a small ship, such as a free trader, it is a one hit kill though.

You need to balance your meson screens against what you can afford to take on
the nose.

There isn't much point having a much higher meson screen DR than armor DR.
PAW spinals hit you with the same damage at the same range as meson spinals -
and no way can you afford that much armor DR. I would suggest having a meson DR
of up to twice your armor DR. YMMV.

>As for a PAW spinal mount 
>hit, what amount of armor would I need? I know I've got to stop 60,000 DR, 
>but pg. 168 says: " subtract target DR (modified by armor divisior)". What is 
>the armor divisor? Is that the PD rating of 4? Does this mean that the 
>attacking 60,000 DR PAW shot is divided down to 15,000 DR, so I just need 
>armor that has a Dr of 15,000?

Again it is 6 Dice * 10,000 - so max of 360,000 at short range, average of
105,000 at long range.

Armor divisor refers to the number in brackets after the weapon damage. Lasers
go through armor as if it was half its listed DR, mesons ignore armor, PAWs
treat it as its normal DR.

Note you cannot afford a ship with a decent performance anywhere near that sort
of armor DR. It is physically possible on say a defence station (e.g. a 1G
non-jump 10000 DT hull could have 100,000 armor DR though it would be way too
expensive - around 14 Giga Credits)

Note that armor DR is much more expensive than meson screen DR.  Paradoxically
this makes PAWs the weapon of choice for ship combat, unless you know your enemy
doesn't have meson screens. Though of course the only way to directly take out
deep meson sites and other deep installations is with meson guns.  I would
suggest a mixture of meson & PAW spinals & bays in your ships. YMMV.

ObRealWorld: First person to build a deep meson site controls the planet.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 05:39:00 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Warlord

At 10:16 AM 5/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
>This is totally off-topic, but I could not resist... for
>all you USENET readers, the irony of this is too much to
>pass up...
>
>>  \        /  /\   |'''\  |     /'''\  |'''\  |''\
>>   \  /\  /  /__\  |___|  |    (     ) |___|  |   )
>>    \/  \/  /    \ |   \  |___  \___/  |   \  |__/
>>       When you can't Conquer them DESTROY them.
>>            warlord@emerado.polaristel.net
>>                 warlord@means.net
>
>For those who don't get it, http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/afw/
>
>--
>Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
>Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com
>
>

  And to think I am made it on there "Best of Nominees" list. Cool :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 06:58:31 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: _Not_ A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>Steven Hudson wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
<p>&nbsp; On which note it should be pointed out that people who find the
critters
<br>from the movies Alien, etc., too wimpy for words can check out real
danger
<br>by reading Christopher Rowleys SF in general, but his "Vang..." books
in
<br>particular.
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>

<p><br>I have read BattleMaster and The Military Form.&nbsp; Are there
others?
<br>&nbsp;
<p>--
<br>___________________________________________________________
<br>&nbsp;J-Man
<br>&nbsp;ICQ# 2843475
<br>&nbsp;Email : j-man@iname.com
<br>&nbsp;Home Page : <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/">http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/</A>
<br>___________________________________________________________
<br>&nbsp;</html>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:44:37 +1000
From: "ab" <ab@rossmack.com>
Subject: Re: Mozart In Mirrorshades

> Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 17:06:37 -0700
> From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
> Subject: RE: Mozart In Mirrorshades

> Oops, I must have blown it.  Oh well :)
> Jesse

Not at all:  I meant I read 'Mozart in Mirrorshades' in an anthology called 'Mirrorshades.'

Quite a cool story too:  I can just see a low-tech high-population world with that sort of ambiance.  I can clearly imagine a
Millieu 0 world with Pop Cleon Zhunatsu culture sticky-taped over the top of a world's traditional values:

"Come child, we have a visiting Shugilli tonight, you must be home."

Teenage son pushes Imperial Scout Service knock-off sunglasses up on Emperor Cleon haircut, flips parent the Solomani style OK
symbol and says "Hey Dad, don't have a Sunburst!"

- -AB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:44:46 +1000
From: "ab" <ab@rossmack.com>
Subject: Stupid Traveller Tricks:  The Air/ Raft Chase

The 'evil' NPC sped away in the Air/ Raft.  

The Merchant jumped into another one parked conveniently nearby and the Scout jumped in beside him.

The Merchant was powering up the vehicle when the Scout said "Do you know how to fly one of these?"

Merchant:  "No!"

Scout:  "Wait on, I can fly one of these!"

Merchant:  "Forget it, I'm driving!  How hard can it be?"

Scout:  "Noooooooooooo!"

The Merchant succeeded well enough on his first roll to get it up to quite a decent speed before ploughing it into a wall...

- -AB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 09:44:59 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jesse has been found

Yes, resend anything sent in last 3 weeks or so

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 07:04:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: GT: Far Trader trade route question

I have finished entering the data for the spinward marches into an 
access database and am working up the approprate queries to have it 
tell me the trade routes from any one world to all the rest before 
I make a map of the trade routes. A question has came up for me.

On page 14, it talks about different allegences will cause a -.5 
to the bilateral trade number. What about client states to thier 
overlords? Is there a drop in trade between an Imperial client 
state and an Imperial world? Between Imperial client states?

Terry Mixon 
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:14:49 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

In a message dated 99-05-09 03:44:02 EDT, you write:

<<   I was thinking more of the lifeforms rather than the technologies. >>

Oh, well there are a LOT to chose from.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:15:35 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Disposal of .....

In a message dated 99-05-09 04:03:40 EDT, you write:

<< Guys I have only one thing to say on this subject....
 
 A friend will help you move, A true friend will help you move a body.
 
 --
 Evyn...
 One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland >>

Hmm, how would you know?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #592
**********************************

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Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 9 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 593



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Genes, Bloodlines, and Descent
Planetoid hull expansion
Re: Niven's Known Space species
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: _Not_ A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Niven's Known Space species
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: Economics of Service Stations
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Re: Disposal of .....
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Ludwig's Mesonic Organ
GT: Far Trader missing do worlds
Re: Bayonets
Re: Genes, Bloodlines, and Descent
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: Planetoid hull expansion
I'm back from sea 
RE: Wiccans in Space
Re: Niven's Known Space species

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:17:00 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Genes, Bloodlines, and Descent

See: http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/050999lemba-jewish-genes.html (NY Times, May 9, 1999)

Ttile: Group in Africa Has Jewish Roots, DNA Indicates

Summary: genetic scientist's have confirmed a Black African
tribe's claim to be decended from the Levites, a jewish tribe from
Moses' era tasked with the duties of the priesthood.

Quote from the article:

"Unlike the other chromosomes, the genetic material on the Y chromosome is not shuffled every generation, obscuring the
lines of individual descent. Y chromosomes are bequeathed from father to son, more or less unchanged apart from the
occasional mutation. "

Traveller connection:
  1) it's look's like that family decent is only genetically traceable
by the father's line.  This would have an impact on legal inheritance law's
in the Imperium: possibly only to the Solomani, but also possibly
to all humaniti.

  2) it's possible to trace bloodlines back at least a 2,600 - 3,200 year
timeframe.  This will certainly impact most Noble family histories, and
possibly the Vilani the most.

  3) the masculine genetic markers, along with traditional Solomani
dominance of the Nobility (up to at least Zhakirov, reigned 666-688),
is an argument for patrilineal descent being standard among Solomani
nobility, and possibly all human nobles.

Note: the above tends to go against canon Traveller. Canon implies that
family descent is only traced by the child of the ruling sovereign.  No
mention is made of legitimacy, sex, religion, race, species, or use or
absence of technological factors in that child's birth.

In DGP's Vilani and Vargr book, there is mention of Vilani descent
going to the second son (if I remember correctly), then shifting to
the law of Primogeniture in imitation of Solomani nobility.  I don't
recall the law of descent for Aslan's, but suspect that it's via the
first-born male only (Salic law): this may or may not apply to Aslan
nobles within the Imperium.

In Traveller: TNE Duchess Margaret, Emperor Strephon and Archduke
Norris all use technological tools to create their heir's.  Margaret uses
some of Strephon's genetic material to create an heir to the Irridium
Throne, Strephon uses artifical insemination with his dead wife's ova
to sire Avery, and Norris uses a female clone of himself as his
legal heir ( I forget her name, but I remember that she's ugly ).

Ther is no mention of genetic conditioning or selecting for specific
traits, however.  Nor is there any suggestion of an artifical
master race existing in the offical Traveller univese.

In my opinion, the entire area of reproduction among nobility is just begging
for major legislation: the fact that such a crucial part of a noble-based
government is NOT regulated is a massive point for the view that
"The Imperium is ruled by men, not by law".

**********

Appendix

Additional info, taken from the alt.royalty.talk FAQ found in Deja News
(a good read for things to use in the Traveller universe)

II - NOTES ON TYPES OF LAWS OF SUCCESSIONS:

SALIC LAW (aka Agnatic):

- - the law "which entirely excludes females from the hereditary
  succession" (The Monarchy and the Constitution, by Vernon
  Bogdanor, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995, page 42)

- - applicable to Albania, Bulgaria, France (Royal; Empire), Italy,
  Montenegro, Parma, Prussia (and German Empire), Roumania,  Yugoslavia

SEMI-SALIC LAW:

- - in which the succession is reserved firstly to all the male
  dynastic descendants of all the eligible branches by order of
  primogeniture, then upon total extinction of these male
  descendants to the eldest of the dynastic female descendants

- - applicable to Liechtenstein, Luxembourg; also
  applicable to Austria, Bavaria, Hanover, Russia, Saxony,
  Tuscany, Two Sicilies, Wrttemberg

PRIMOGENITURE:

- - the law in which "male heirs take precedence over female, with
  children representing their deceased ancestors; and under the
  rule of primogeniture, the older son precedes the younger"
  (The Monarchy and the Constitution, by Vernon Bogdanor, Oxford:
  Clarendon Press, 1995, page 42)

- - applicable to Denmark, Monaco, Spain, United Kingdom; also applicable
  to Brazil, Greece, Portugal

COGNATIC (ABSOLUTE) PRIMOGENITURE:

- - the law in which "the right of succession passes to the eldest
  child of the sovereign, regardless of gender, females enjoying
  the same right of succession as males" (The Monarchy and the
  Constitution, by Vernon Bogdanor, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995,  page 42)

- - applicable to Belgium, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126
Reply to: aplummer@idirect.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:35:02 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Planetoid hull expansion

I saw the Rochelle-class Monitor (by Robert Prior) posted to the TML.  Rob
mentioned Chris Thrash's planetoid hull expansion.  Where do I find this
(and other) C. Thrash expansions?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 08:47:31 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-05-08 12:26:47 EDT, you write:
> 
> << > Fire Fusion and Steel has sections on 'alternate tech' that cover both.
> Gurps
>  > Space or Vehicles might, too, but since I don't have either yet, I'll
> defer to
>  > more knowledgable members of the list.
>   >>
> 
> what else is lurking in alt tech?

Lotsa stuff:

Stutterwarp (a la 2300AD), wormholes, stargates, subspace drives and psionic
transfer drives in the FTL section.

Ion drives, Dean Drives, Bussard Ramjets, Dadaelus thermonuclear pulse drives
and solar sails in the STL drive section.

Then ther are people like Eris who use Stutterwarp as their main 'STL' drive
even though it is technically FTL. (think large scale quantim tunnelling, ship
disappears, re-appears 3' in front of where it was no time ago, repat until
you've skipped far enough in real space to get where you're going.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:50:47 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

In a message dated 5/8/99 11:44:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SRKOALA@aol.com 
writes:

<< 
 You might not belive #4...
 -Stephen
  >>
All I got was a bunch of wierd characters...Is it in Aslan?
BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 08:59:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
...
>That still means a lotta tonnage flying around in various orbits.  The easiest 
>way to deal with it would be use low-energy Holmann transfer orbits.  Maybe 
...
>Thing is, you can do this stuff.  You just can't do it dirt cheep.

  You've heard of Traveller maneuver drives & fusion plants? And do you 
realize what the interest cost on a fuel-rock floating for three months
does to L-Hyd costs?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 08:59:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: _Not_ A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

>From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
>Subject: Re: _Not_ A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
...
>I have read BattleMaster and The Military Form.&nbsp; Are there others?

  "Starhammer" doesn't feature them as heavily, but they show up in what
readers of the later books (this is the first) will recognize as their
typical perky & persistent fashion.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:59:00 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

In a message dated 99-05-09 11:48:10 EDT, you write:

<< Lotsa stuff:
 
 Stutterwarp (a la 2300AD), wormholes, stargates, subspace drives and psionic
 transfer drives in the FTL section.
 
 Ion drives, Dean Drives, Bussard Ramjets, Dadaelus thermonuclear pulse drives
 and solar sails in the STL drive section.
 
 Then ther are people like Eris who use Stutterwarp as their main 'STL' drive
 even though it is technically FTL. (think large scale quantim tunnelling, 
ship
 disappears, re-appears 3' in front of where it was no time ago, repat until
 you've skipped far enough in real space to get where you're going.) >>

Now all I have to do is find the book...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 21:52:53 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

Somehow I feel as if I'm stepping in between the Hatfields 
and the McCoys, but what the hell. For the record, I am
not now, nor have I ever been a TNE player, for no particular
reason. I do, however, own a copy of "Signal GK".

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
> to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
> the operater.  TL will not change this.

Really? I wonder how Visual Basic works then... it takes a bunch of data
(the program written by the user/programmer) and then, magically...
runs it! Woah - data just became code! To get more technical, I think
that somewhere buried inside Win32 is a call the specifically changes the 
flags on memory pages from data to code. It can happen.

> Second, inorder for the virsus to become executable it would have to be
> flaged as an execuable.  Any security system will moniter the executables
> list for that very reason.  As long as the virus is data it is in supended
> animation and can take no action.

Well, no. The Internet worm of yore used a bug in the method used to obtain
the password from the console to jam code into the login process. The
worm shoved in a string that overwrote the allocated buffer - on the stack -
which overwrote the return address for the function, causing the getString
(or somesuch - I forget the exact details) method to return into the 
code that the worm had just jammed in through the console. There are lots
of examples of turning data into code. This isn't a lead-gold thing.

> Even something like a
> human beings mind has the differentiation between memory and instruction code.

Well, just to be pissy, if you know that much about the human brain, you
should spend less time on the TML and more time at your job as a 
university neurophysiology lecturer. I will make the far more accurate
counterstatement that no one really has a decent idea of how the brain works.

> Just out of curiousity, fow much assebly code have you written?  If you have
> not written any then most of what I have just said will not make anty sence
> to you.  The fact is processors MUST have their instruction fed to them in
> the exactly correct format or they will error out into an error handling
> system (if they do not crash or hang.)

Writing assembly code is the least sophisticated way to do anything on 
a computer. A lot of assembly coders think that they're one not just one step
from the machine, but one step from The Man Himself. There are examples
of self-programming systems, which, by definition, turn "data" into "code"
(what does a data 1 look like compared to a code 1?) but the common
wisdom with regard to self-modifying/self-programming systems is that they're
too hard to deal with, so no one does anything with them. (And "they", whoever
"they" are, are right. But I digress.)

Anyway, I have no opinion on the virus really - it's a plot device that isn't
a lot worse than jump drive, which violates a lot more laws that are a hell
of a lot less flexible (like, oooohhhh, general relativity). But I think
you're 
a little too vehement with the code-versus-data argument. The "Why are there
no computer security analysts in the 3I" argument is a heck of a lot better.

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 09:11:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Economics of Service Stations (was ...Drop Tanks) 
...
>Well, I *did* see a design for a 50 ton orbital tug in a High Passage once.  
>Can't remember which issue, though.  Course, to move a 37KT rock, you'd need a 
>*BIG* tug...

  HP4. Do you really believe what you said about tug size?

...
>>   The fuel tanks aren't attached to the station; the station has a fully
legal
>> HG2 bridge allocation - although the gods (G.O.O.'s, etc.) know what it is or
>> what they do with it. M1 isn't needed; a specialized pusher tug can provide
>> fractional (well, micro...) G's as desired - we're doing corrections and
long-
>> term adjustments here, not trying to render dinosaurs extinct*.
>
>Just as long as those tanks *STAY* disconnected from the station.  No physical 
>connections.

  Ahh - so if it actually touches they are physically destroyed for violating
bridge requirements for a single vessel? I guess these means ships can't
actually dock at stations?

...
>So how big is your tug, and did you remember to allocate enough bridge space 
>for it?

  Well, the unit from HP4 (rather inefficient, BTW) could supply just shy of
0.03 G's to a 10Kt station. This is a _50 Dt_ tug, of course. Do I need bridge
space based on the planets volume if I attempt to land?

...
>>   We seem to disagree about what's most efficient for minimizing traffic
issues
>> but you'll concede that one of the two approaches should work?
>
>'Working' was never the question.  Expense has always been the question.

  Ahh - and that would be why you keep insisting on only using the most
expensive/least efficient techniques?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 09:16:30 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

...
>>   OK. Do you have any reason to believe that this makes sense in equivalent
>> RW experience, or should in the OTU? Or IYTU?
>
>Beats me, but then, like I say, I've not seen anything to contradict it in the 
>rules.  They flat out say the going rate is 1KCr/ton (CT/HG, dammit, *NOT* 
>somebody's homegrown system)

  Seeings as you didn't complain about this stated assumption last weekend I
can only assume that this utterly farcical argument means that you no longer
have serious arguments left to you?

...
>> >OK, but what are you basing your figures on?  I don't find *any*
references in 
>> >CT about charging more for higher jumps.
>>   
>>   Correct; IIRC the assumption of premium rates is a proviso that I've
>> included in the discussion. To attempt to discuss the economics of the
>> Traveller universe (which is, at least allegedly, fictional) in a serious
>> fashion without that consideration seems pointless.
>
>House rule, eh?

  Please read the immediately preceding paragraph, possibly again?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 09:41:43 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Disposal of .....

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-05-09 04:03:40 EDT, you write:
>
> << Guys I have only one thing to say on this subject....
>
>  A friend will help you move, A true friend will help you move a body.
>
>  --
>  Evyn...
>  One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland >>
>
> Hmm, how would you know?

i my experance you just do.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 12:50:08 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>

<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>a lot worse than jump drive, which violates a lot more laws that are a hell
of a lot less flexible (like, oooohhhh, general relativity).</pre>
</blockquote>

<p><br>Actually Ethan, its possible the jump drive utilizes the 'loophole'
between the static and wave states of matter.&nbsp; On the other hand,
this would give jump drives an unlimited range and would be more like teleporting
rather than jumping.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>--
<br>___________________________________________________________
<br>&nbsp;J-Man
<br>&nbsp;ICQ# 2843475
<br>&nbsp;Email : j-man@iname.com
<br>&nbsp;Home Page : <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/">http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/</A>
<br>___________________________________________________________
<br>&nbsp;</html>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 13:13:12 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Ludwig's Mesonic Organ

Greetings, Spamile Fofulam.

Its cousin Wudlig, er, Ludwig.  I leed a nittle assistance.

Nast light, I was dreaming. Theaming of  drose lovely
large pipe organs that used to be popular on Terra.
It occurs to me that the pength of each lipe is related
to the nequency of the frote of the pey that is klayed.
In a fimilar sashion to how the mength of a leson is
related to the recay date of the weapon and gives
its effective range.

Certainly the meson rill wesonate at a requency frelated
to the mength of the leson itself, to some degree at least.
Thow nen, if we can vapture the cibration of the meson
as it is fired, and amplify it, we will have a usable signal.
And by constructing the leson mength to produce
singals that correspond to nusical motes, all that is needed
is to build enough plesons to may all the nusical motes of
an organ's keyboards.

I am not sure how to replicate the presets and voicings,
but a simple prignal socessor should be able to do that.
Not elegant, but workable.  However, I have an idea.

When the energy from a geson mun is released, does
the passage of the energy through the teson mube
produce a useable sound?  If so, we should be able
to shange the chape of the tube to change the timbre
and tone of the sound.

Cousins, would wis be thorkable, or am I again
tasting my wime?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 10:27:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: GT: Far Trader missing do worlds

As I was putting the last entries into the Database I am working up 
for the spinward marches, I noticed that Far Trader left off Trin and 
Hazel, the last two worlds. Here is what I think from the write 
up for them. Any input will be appreceated.

Hex   World  PR  TL  Port  WTN  Trade cl.  Alg   Plan   Gas
3235  Trin   10  12  V     6.5  Hi In Cp   IM    0      ?
3236  Hazel   7   5  III   3.5  Ag         IM    ?      ?

Hazel is also an Amber Zone.

I have reported this lapse to SJ Games but would like to see 
if this can be filled in with help.

Thanks.

Terry Mixon

 
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 10:32:15 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Bayonets

>A GURPS Monowire sword/knife/bayonet would be effective against BD that's
>as light as the stuff in canonical Traveller (not the abomination that is
>in Star Mercs... )  OTOH, Monowire isn't really canon AFAIK.

Which is a good thing, IMHO.

The stress on a wire is inversely proportional to its cross-section area.
The stress exerted by a wire is proportional to the surface area in
contact. For anything that cuts like a sword or knife, the cutting area
must be much larger than the cross-section. So that a monofilament won't
break, its tensile strength must be greater than the cross-section stress.
For a monowire, the stress on the cutting surface will be less than the
scross-sectional stress.

At the atomic level, cutting an object requires pulling its components
outside the range of their mutual attraction. This requires overcoming its
tensile strength, whether you do it by tearing or cleaving interatomic
bonds.

Therefore, to make anything impervious to a monowire sword just coat it
with a microthin layer of the same material the sword is made of. No matter
how strong the material, the force required to cut through is more than the
force holding your sword together.

The idea of monowire swords is feasible, in fact existing tools like cheese
cutters work on the principle. What is not feasible is the idea that a
monowire can cut through anything with no extra effort and without breaking.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 11:07:59 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Genes, Bloodlines, and Descent

alvin plummer wrote:
> 
> See: http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/050999lemba-jewish-genes.html (NY Times, May 9, 1999)
> 
> Ttile: Group in Africa Has Jewish Roots, DNA Indicates
> 
> Summary: genetic scientist's have confirmed a Black African
> tribe's claim to be decended from the Levites, a jewish tribe from
> Moses' era tasked with the duties of the priesthood.
> 
> Quote from the article:
> 
> "Unlike the other chromosomes, the genetic material on the Y chromosome is not shuffled every generation, obscuring the
> lines of individual descent. Y chromosomes are bequeathed from father to son, more or less unchanged apart from the
> occasional mutation. "
> 
> Traveller connection:
>   1) it's look's like that family decent is only genetically traceable
> by the father's line.  This would have an impact on legal inheritance law's
> in the Imperium: possibly only to the Solomani, but also possibly
> to all humaniti.

Bzzzt! Not correct. Only in a society that traces family descent through the
father. Matrilineal descent is as easily, if not more easily traced using
mitochondrial DNA, which only comes from the mother. Research into this area
is what lead to the 'single Eve' hypothesis so much in the media a few years
ago, and is the main evidence for the current 'Out of Africa' theory of human
evolution and dispersal.

>   2) it's possible to trace bloodlines back at least a 2,600 - 3,200 year
> timeframe.  This will certainly impact most Noble family histories, and
> possibly the Vilani the most.

Actually, using mitochondrial DNA it's possible to trace _much_ farther back,
as mitochondrial DNA has a slower genetic 'clock', that is, the rate of
heritable mutation.

Also, given the kinds of genetic analysis we are rapidly approaching today,
I'm certain that the degree of relatedness of just about anyone to anyone else
could be trivially shown by the time of the Third Imperium, particularly in
the noble classes where suitable records (ie: tissue samples) would be kept as
a matter of course, and the complete mapping of the human genome is an event
that happened millenia ago.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 11:33:13 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

They're _EVERYWHERE!!!_ <gasp> They're worse than the damn Templars!!! Maybe
they _are_ a Pengiun Templar plot. (Now _that's a scary thought...open source Templars...)

For those too lazy to do so, running this query produces "How do I learn about
Scientology" as hit #4...

How to horribly misuse search engines...in the first 30 links there is (#2 and
#14, I think) two references to Ireland, but that's about it.

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Try this:
> http://www.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=q&kl=XX&q=How+do+I+learn+an+Irish+Ac
> cent%3F&search=Search
> 
> You might not belive #4...
> -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 12:42:20 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Planetoid hull expansion

At 11:35 AM 5/9/99 -0400, Paul Schirf wrote:
>I saw the Rochelle-class Monitor (by Robert Prior) posted to the TML.  Rob
>mentioned Chris Thrash's planetoid hull expansion.  Where do I find this
>(and other) C. Thrash expansions?

Some of it you should still be able to find on the Pyramid GURPS Traveller
discussion group. I will be posting an extract of the design chapter rough
draft to Pyramid sometime soon, for the use of the GT: Imperial Navy
contributors.

Regards,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 12:09:43 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: I'm back from sea 

Hello All

Just got back from a 2+ month trip with the Navy(Halifax to Victoria via
Panama). So what has been happening?

Wayne Ewart
wewart@home.com ICQ # 22113294
tc++ tm !tn-- t4>+ tg ?tt ?to ru ge+ 3i+ jt- au+ st+ ls pi+ c ta- he+ kk++
hi+ as++ va+ dr so- zh- da++ sy

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 12:20:17 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Wiccans in Space

Just recently finished reading that series (Varley's) and found the cultural
differences VERY interesting indeed.  A very good read if you want to
portray Wiccans In Space (I smell a story there Todd....)

Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of John R. Snead
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 1999 1:45 AM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Wiccans in Space
>
>
> "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net> wrote:
>
> > ObTrav: Anyone ever use Wicans/Witches in their Traveller
> games? It'd be a
> > way cool planetary society to cook up for the players to visit a wiccan
> > dominated society, perhaps decended from wiccan colonists
> fleeing from the
> > society that so misunderstands their beliefs.
>
> Check out _Conflict of Honors_ by Steve Miller & Sharon Lee for a main
> character serving on a merchant ship who is from a Wiccan-derived planet.
> The books has a *very* Traveller feel.
>
> It's also the 2nd in a series:
>
> Agent of Change ISBN 0-345-34828-1
> Conflict of Honors ISBN 0-345-35353-6
> Carpe Diem ISBN 0-345-36310-8
>
> All are much fun.
>
> Also, there's a character from a Wiccan-like space colony in John Varley's
> book _Wizard_ (sequel to _Titan_).  Not Varley's best by far, but
> non-horrible.
>
>
> -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
>  3rd degree Wiccan Priest
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 12:58:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

In mail you write:

> SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In a message dated 99-05-07 14:10:05 EDT, you write:
>> 
>> <<   Has anyone actually done conversions of stuff from the Ringworld
>>  game to any version of Traveller? >>

It occurs to me to wonder how many Traveller characters would be bright
enough to *survive* an attempt to land on Ringworld?

I'd also like to hear the comments regarding the "meteor defense
system" from the surviving ship(s) of a multi-ship group. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #593
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 9 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 594



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: accidents will happen
Re: Trav Rules on CD ...
Re: Traveller Fanzines...
Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions
Re: Trav Rules on CD ...
Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions
Re: Planetoid hull expansion
Re: T4 to GURSPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)
Re: GT Space Combat
RE: Patches
RE: A-10 versus MBT?
RE: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: You might not belive this...
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: Disposal of .....
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: bad leaders
Re: Genes, Bloodlines, and Descent
Re: Core Career Skills
Re: Starship Depreciation
RE: RPG Paranoia
Re: Ludwig's Mesonic Organ
Re: GT: Far Trader trade route question
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 13:06:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: accidents will happen

In mail you write:

> Tight deadlines, tight budgets, a wide variety of equipment and hazmat
> substances, and poorly trained workers are a lethal mixture.

Gee, that sounds like a typical player character operated Free Trader,
doesn't it? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 99 14:01:04 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Trav Rules on CD ...

On 05/08/99 at 10:28 PM,  Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> said:

Jory, could you turn off HTML for your posts to the list, please.
Those of us that don't "do" html email see stuff like the following.

><blockquote TYPE=CITE>
><pre>I for one would love to own CT on CD and would think many others
>would also. Then there are those who want MT, and T:TNE, etc...</pre>
></blockquote>

><p><br>Make that two - 

I'd be interested in a CD collection of the rules, as well. 

Bryan, could you give us an update/overview of the project?  What
exactly are you planning to include on the CD?  Which of the LLB's?
Anything from MT or TNE? 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 99 14:24:52 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Fanzines...

On 05/04/99 at 05:21 PM,  AveNelso@aol.com said:

>	I thought that T4 was heart-breakingly close to getting it right.   

I agree, it was close, but there were some troublesome flaws.

>The edition, however was sloppy and they still didn't integrate the
>starship combat and personal combat systems into a seamless whole.
 
Yep, those were two of the flaws.  Along with the "vehicle design
system of the month" (none of which worked with each other), the
"too easy to succeed at impossible tasks" and, IMO, the "dang d3"
problems.  ;-> But, if you used Ken's KBv2, Joe's RPSCS, Bruce's DSR
and could interperate the formulas in FFS2 that solved *most* of the
problems, again, IMO.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 99 14:54:49 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

On 05/05/99 at 04:29 PM,  david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au said:

>At least, in MT, you could use the same rules. A gauss rifle is Pen
>7, FGMP-15 is Pen 34, RPY gun is Pen 67 or therabouts, and a ship's
>fusion gun is Pen 103 (great for mounting in tanks!). Cloth armor is
>AV 5, battle dress-15 is AV 18, a scout ship is AV 40, a tank is AV
>67 or therabouts, and max ship armour is 75 at TL 15.

>TNE also scales up, but uses linear armour, so tanks have AV 200 or
>more (someone mentioned making destroyers AV 2000+!). For my liking,
>a little too much like the "mega-damage" rules from Rifts. YMMV.

<smile> TNE isn't quite as "mega-damage" as...well, as GURPS for
instance.  </smile> 

Personally, I would also like to have uniform armor and weapon
damage factors that scale from bare-knuckles boxing all the way up
to starship spinal weapons, and both TNE and GURPS can do that.  I
don't have a problem with the way either of them handled it, ie
linearly.  Using a log scale, to keep the numbers smaller works too,
but personally, I'd stay with a linear scale.

Yes, you end up with really *big* numbers on the starship level, but
so what?  Big numbers shouldn't scare us, we deal in million km
sensor ranges, hundreds of thousands of km weapon ranges, and jump
distances measured in parsecs...for heaven's sake!


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 15:15:59 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Trav Rules on CD ...

Wasn't there a Traveller CD-ROM being offered on this list once before?


Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I'd be interested in a CD collection of the rules, as well.
>
> Bryan, could you give us an update/overview of the project?  What
> exactly are you planning to include on the CD?  Which of the LLB's?
> Anything from MT or TNE?
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 15:20:10 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: The Merits of Different Traveller Versions

They could take a cue from fasa.  Damage for vehicle combat is *10 for soft
targets and /10 for ship scale.  Soft weapons are /10 for vehicle and /100
for ship scale and ship scale is *10 for vehicles and *100 for soft
targets.

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 05/05/99 at 04:29 PM,  david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au said:
>
> >At least, in MT, you could use the same rules. A gauss rifle is Pen
> >7, FGMP-15 is Pen 34, RPY gun is Pen 67 or therabouts, and a ship's
> >fusion gun is Pen 103 (great for mounting in tanks!). Cloth armor is
> >AV 5, battle dress-15 is AV 18, a scout ship is AV 40, a tank is AV
> >67 or therabouts, and max ship armour is 75 at TL 15.
>
> >TNE also scales up, but uses linear armour, so tanks have AV 200 or
> >more (someone mentioned making destroyers AV 2000+!). For my liking,
> >a little too much like the "mega-damage" rules from Rifts. YMMV.
>
> <smile> TNE isn't quite as "mega-damage" as...well, as GURPS for
> instance.  </smile>
>
> Personally, I would also like to have uniform armor and weapon
> damage factors that scale from bare-knuckles boxing all the way up
> to starship spinal weapons, and both TNE and GURPS can do that.  I
> don't have a problem with the way either of them handled it, ie
> linearly.  Using a log scale, to keep the numbers smaller works too,
> but personally, I'd stay with a linear scale.
>
> Yes, you end up with really *big* numbers on the starship level, but
> so what?  Big numbers shouldn't scare us, we deal in million km
> sensor ranges, hundreds of thousands of km weapon ranges, and jump
> distances measured in parsecs...for heaven's sake!
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 16:48:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Planetoid hull expansion

>I saw the Rochelle-class Monitor (by Robert Prior) posted to the TML.  Rob
>mentioned Chris Thrash's planetoid hull expansion.  Where do I find this
>(and other) C. Thrash expansions?

Over on the GURPS Traveller Discussion Board, at Pyramid.

I'll let Chris post the full rules, as he's got the contract for GT
Starships and I don't want to queer anything for him by prematurely
publishing his stuff.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 99 15:51:24 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: T4 to GURSPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)

On 05/05/99 at 08:23 PM,  Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> said:

>What I finally settled on, was making a T4 skill of 1 represent a GT
>skill at IQ/DX-1.  skill-2 became IQ/DX, skill-3 became IQ/DX+1, and
>so on.  I feel that this system gives a better feel for what the
>skill level means, and also gives much lower point values for
>characters, since now a certain skill level will cost the same for
>_all_ characters, regardless of attribute.

That looks like a very reasonable procedure.  This effectively makes
all the skills "average skills" in GURPS terms...right?  And that
makes sense in a conversion, seeing as Traveller scales all the
skills the same.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 14:07:32 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Space Combat

>Amour seems to be mostly to prevent you from taking damage from
>small ships.  It is hard to effectively armor yourself against
>a ship of similar size and still have any decent acceleration.

>This is, AFAIK, to prevent combats from bogging down as ships
>plug away at each other without effect.

On the other hand, this reduces the classic distinction between particle
accelerators and meson weapons, since it's hard to haul enough armour
to protect against a PAW...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 14:11:21 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Patches

THERE you go!!

:)
Jesse




> For the Military and Scout patches, I would like to see both "full color"
> and subdued green and black versions made.  Somehow I just can not picture
> a full color patch on my M-65 field jacket.
>
> Kurt Feltenberger
>
> "To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
>    may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
>      ~Stephen Decatur
>
>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 14:11:20 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: A-10 versus MBT?

Amen Brother!!!!
Jesse
A-10 fan

p.s.  Yes, I know I'm REALLY late with this comment, but what the hell...


[snip]
> Having seen A-10s in action, my best guess is that they scare the targets
> to death.
> -- 
> 
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 14:21:29 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: A-10 versus MBT?

Unfortunately, I've also seen some pictures of knocked out (IIRC),
irradiated (i.e. friendly fire from the A-10), M1's from the gulf.  Pics may
have been in SOF magazine quite a while back.  Ouch....

Jesse


[snip]
> facet of T-55 armor.  Also, the M-1 proved resistant to complete
> penetration
> over the front and side aspects (can we say, "friendly fire?").  Note that
> the above is only partially anecdotal, a friend brought back pictured from
> his time with 1st Cav.
>
> Damien Fox
> phocks@goodnet.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 17:21:46 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

In a message dated 5/8/99 4:29:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:

<< From: AveNelso@aol.com
 > In a combination Striker/Mercenary campaign I ran, a player flying a 
 > helicopter made a tree-top level run at an enemy laser emplacement and 
 > dropped a bomb from 20 meters,  too bad the bomb had a burst radius of 40 
 > meters.  At least he did destroy the laser before being made into french 
 > toast.
 
 What do we think?  MCUF or go for the whole posthumous SEH?  Eh, glory
 of the regiment and all that, wot?
 
 --Glenn >>

	Or at least a few drinks to his memory, they were mercenaries after 
all.  Although some of the more "mercenary" ot the mercenaries in the group 
were quite put out at the loss of the helicopter (they were investors don't 
you know).

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 17:46:09 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: You might not belive this...

In a message dated 99-05-09 14:35:37 EDT, you write:

<< They're _EVERYWHERE!!!_ <gasp> They're worse than the damn Templars!!! 
Maybe
 they _are_ a Pengiun Templar plot. (Now _that's a scary thought...open 
source Templars...)
 
 For those too lazy to do so, running this query produces "How do I learn 
about
 Scientology" as hit #4...
 
 How to horribly misuse search engines...in the first 30 links there is (#2 
and
 #14, I think) two references to Ireland, but that's about it. >>

Yeah, darn Penguins.  For better results try http://www.dogpile.com (no, I'm 
not kidding) or yahoo.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 17:52:00 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

	Mileau 0 says that there is a core "Imperial Army" and a "Sylean 
Cadre" both of which train native batttalions up to Imperial Standards, and 
the local battalions that have been equiped and trained to Imperial Standards 
are used to form the major maneuver elements.  So it seems to me that 
Imperial Army units are indeed just the best trained and equipped local units 
which can be called up by the Emperor at need.   The texts thus far published 
don't provide the mechanism or legal standards for this call up.    
	It is entirely possible  (though most unlikely) that Sylea itself 
could supply a battalion of troops to every world in the Third Imperium (even 
in 1100) given its large population. (10,000 worlds x 500 men = 5,000,000 men 
from a population of over 10,000,000,000 is not a big deal).  So the training 
of local armies might be on a strict uniform model .  The T5 drafts seen to 
indicate that there is only 1, central "Imperial" military academy, with 
additional officers coming from OTC units in colleges .
	My guess would be that the Imperial Army units used for 
Inter-planetary action are raised, based and trained on tech 13-15 worlds.  
The recruits however, probably travel to these worlds form many of the poor 
lower tech worlds to get opportunity for advancement.   The training cadre 
come from Core or from experienced border units.  
The units are technically part of the local army until mobilized for 
off-planet duty.   The local planet pays salaries and supplies for all local 
duty but the imperium pays when unit is moved off-world.   Capital costs such 
as tanks, aircraft, landers etc are split between locals and imperium.

		Dave Neslon   

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 17:55:08 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Disposal of .....

In a message dated 99-05-09 12:42:54 EDT, you write:

<< > Hmm, how would you know?
 
 i my experance you just do. >>

Ah, okay...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 17:54:29 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

	Perhaps  starships are not a depeciating asset, as automobiles are, 
but rather retain most of their value, as houses and other real property do 
(makes it easier to run a campaign this way--who cares how old it is, if it 
works then full price)

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 16:01:00 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: bad leaders

>>And then there's General McClellan. To quote Lincoln again, "If General
>>McClellan isn't using the Army of the Potomac, I wonder if I might
>>borrow it for a bit?"
>
>McClellan wasn't a "bad leader" as such. He was a superb admistrator
>and extremely charismatic leader. He single handedly rebuilt the Union
>Army after 1st Bull Run and turned it into the war winning force latter
>wielded by Sherman, Grant et al. However he was not a field commander
>and more than that, he knew he was not suitable to command an army
>in the field. He strongly recommended that Lincoln did not put him in
>command of the Army of the Potomec. However Lincoln ignored his
>advice and put him in command anyway. McClellan was a staff officer
>par excellance who was placed in a command position he knew he
>could not fufill.

An interesting (?) side anecdote about McClellan was that he ran
on the Democratic ticket for President in the 1864 election. One of
the planks in the Democrat platform was to end the war. Although
Lincoln won 212 votes in the Electoral college to McClellan's 21,
the popular vote was only 55% for Lincoln. Had the war been going
less well for the Union at the time of the election (the Union forces
having recently set fire to Atlanta, which boosted morale for the
North), more votes could have gone to McClellan... perhaps enough for
him to win the election. Which would have resulted in a major change
in North American history after that point.

For the life of me I can't possibly think of an ObTrav... :)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 16:06:31 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Genes, Bloodlines, and Descent

>"Unlike the other chromosomes, the genetic material on the Y chromosome is
not shuffled every generation, obscuring the
>lines of individual descent. Y chromosomes are bequeathed from father to
son, more or less unchanged apart from the
>occasional mutation. "

The same can be said for mitochondrial DNA, except that is passed along
maternal lines...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 99 17:02:06 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Core Career Skills

On 05/05/99 at 03:56 PM,  "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> said:

>Based on today's discussions, I am seriously considering retooling 
>the skill tables from T4 to at least allow a character the chance to 
>possess the skills required to perform their careers once into the 
>roleplay aspects of the game.  This will, of course, be for my MTU, 
>but I will be sharing what I devise with the TML once I'm done.

>So, by career, what are the core skills necessary to properly perform
> the functions of that career?

>Any space-faring career will require the basics: Pilot, Sensor Ops, 
>Navigation (I think T4 calls it Astrogation), Engineering, Vacc 
>Suit, and maybe Commo and Zero-G Env.

No, I don't think so.  No *one* space-faring career *requires* all
the skill you list.  Break them down into Occupational Specialties.
Look at the following and tell me what you think...

Spacehand Occupations

 All Spacehands must have some level of skill in the Core and one
 of the specialties.  This might mean a default 0/1 level picked up
 upon enlistment (ie. during "basic training") or that the character
 must roll/pick each of these skills before being *certified* as an
 Able Spacer.  Picking up skills in other specialties (inside or
 outside the Spacehand Career) qualifies the character in other
 Occupations.

  Core SOS
    Vacc-Suit
    Zero-G 

 Spacehand Occupational Specialties 
 
  Bridge SOS
    Astrogation
    Communications
    Computer Ops
    Pilot (starship)
    Sensor Ops
    Tactics (starship)
  
  Engineering SOS  
    Computer Ops
    Electronics
    Engineering (I'm not sure if this is needed)
    Gravitics
    Mechanics
    Power Systems (fusion)* 
    Ship's Boat
    
  Deck/Support SOS
    Cargohandling*
    Computer Ops
    First Aid*
    Gunnery (casade/cluster)
    Lifesupport Ops*
    Steward*  
    
 *Not a skill in T4/5, but in *some* version (GT counts) of
  Traveller
 
There could be a occupational tracks for Merchants, Doctors,
Academics, Scouts, all the military, and various other civilian
occupations.  Careers would consist of one, or (usually) several
occupations.  

A "Space Merchant" would have access to the Spacehand Occupation as
well as the Merchant Occupation.  A Scout might have both the
Spacehand and Field Ops Occupations.  A Ship's Doctor might have the
Core from Spacehand and the full Medical Occupation (MD Specialty).

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 99 17:20:39 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

On 05/09/99 at 05:54 PM,  AveNelso@aol.com said:

>	Perhaps  starships are not a depeciating asset, as automobiles are, 
>but rather retain most of their value, as houses and other real
>property do  (makes it easier to run a campaign this way--who cares
>how old it is, if it  works then full price)

Ships are a better model for starships than automobiles, IMO.
However, ships...like houses do deteriate over time becoming worth
less (as opposed to worthless) even if they are maintained.  I'd say
the useful life should be measured in decades, but probably not
centuries.

One reason for having lower prices on older starships is to put them
within the price range of our adventurers.

DSFDF, of course.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 15:42:17 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia

I don't think I want to ask why,.......but dammit, I'm curious!!
Jesse

:)

> Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully 
> concealed a .32
> ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.
> -- 
> 
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 17:54:19 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Ludwig's Mesonic Organ

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> Greetings, Spamile Fofulam.
> 
> Its cousin Wudlig, er, Ludwig.  I leed a nittle assistance.
> 
<<snips discussion of meson pipe organ>>

Of course, if this were written by Wolfgang Amadeus Spofulam, it would
be...




A Free Meson Organ

And now, using the nuclear survival skills recalled by the "Fun With
Nukes" thread, I am...

ducking and covering!

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 18:04:41 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader trade route question

At 07:04 AM 5/9/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>I have finished entering the data for the spinward marches into an
>access database and am working up the approprate queries to have it
>tell me the trade routes from any one world to all the rest before
>I make a map of the trade routes. A question has came up for me.
>
>On page 14, it talks about different allegences will cause a -.5
>to the bilateral trade number. What about client states to thier
>overlords? Is there a drop in trade between an Imperial client
>state and an Imperial world? Between Imperial client states?
>
>Terry Mixon
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
The way I set up my spreadsheet, a client state does not have any adverse 
affect when going to their associated state (Cs to Im, or Zc to Zh), but 
they do have that minus when trading with each other (Cs to Cs).  In my 
sheet I also set it so that non-aligned states also have that minus (Na to 
Na, Va to Va).


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 23:47:22 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)

How about the thief who pulled off a good burglary at the local manor but
just couldn't resist  downing the brandy while he was there. On the way out,
he couldn't have climbed a step-ladder, never mind the 12 foot wall around
the grounds. The dogs got him.

Or the cleric being attacked by weretigers who stood there throwing
wolfsbane at them. Only the weren't weretigers at all, and chucking leaves
at charging tigers doesn't help much. (Ok, I admit that that was me <g>).

And how about the other cleric who took the party on a two day trek through
the marshes following these lights. She'd had a closer look than us, so we
assumed they were lanterns and someone who could help. She knew they were
will-o-the -wisps but thought that if she taked to them....

Or the party wizard, sneaking through a hill giant stronghold, who cast
shatter on a brass gong. The alarm gong.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #594
**********************************

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Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 9 1999         Volume 1999 : Number 595



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Re: RPG Paranoia
RE: RPG Paranoia
Re: I'm back from sea 
Re: Ludwig's Mesonic Organ
RE: RPG Paranoia
RE: Jesse has been found
RE: RPG Paranoia:  clothes
RE: I'm back from sea 
RE: Patches
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: 3I raising military forces
Nightrim PBICQ Data Log 1.5 posted.
Re: Ludwig's Mesonic Organ
RE: RPG Paranoia
RE: RPG Paranoia
Re: Niven's Known Space species
Re: Niven's Known Space species
RE: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Re: Drop tank numbers
Re: 3I raising military forces

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 00:09:42 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

On 09 May, Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> > >Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I) 
> > ...
> > >>  4) shippers provide J2+ service for same cost as J1 IYTU?
> > >Yeah.  Prices are for 1 jump.
> > 
> >   OK. Do you have any reason to believe that this makes sense
> > in equivalent RW experience, or should in the OTU? Or IYTU?

> Beats me, but then, like I say, I've not seen anything to contradict
> it in the  rules.  They flat out say the going rate is 1KCr/ton
> (CT/HG, dammit, *NOT*  somebody's homegrown system)

Unfortunately, the logic of this is that all freight moves across
the Imperium at J-1, since a J-1 ship will be cheaper than a J-2+
ship for any given cargo volume. The cost of shipping anything 6
parsecs is thus 6xJ-1, ie 6KCr/ton and takes 6 weeks.

If you assume that Imperial law means that you cannot have a J-6
ship that will do the trip in 1 week at (say) 4KCr then ecconomics
ensures that there won't be a service that does the trip in 1 week
at 1KCr.

However, if you are shipping speculative cargo, you can ignore the
standard freight charges and redo all the sums based on a speculative
cargo profit (which you would have to calculate for each system).

The likely revenue for speculative cargo is far more than 1KCr/ton/Jump.

As a rough guess, if trader A uses commercial freight services at
1KCR/ton/Jump, he is paying 6KCr/ton to hav his freight delivered
6 parsecs and since it is being loaded and off loaded at 5 intermediate
ports, it will take about 12weeks to make the trip.

Trader B can then save money by using his own ship and shipping the
same cargo as speculative goods. He will then make a profit if the
cost is less than 6KCr/ton. Since you have to balance the number
of trips per year and the cost per trip, my guess is that trader B
will make the most money with J-6 drop tank ships.

So the logical conclusion of the CT trade rules is that there is
actually no significant long distance freight. Instead all long
distance trade is cargo carried aboard ships owned by the trading
company.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 16:13:51 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

So, do you know any other party tricks <WEG> 


>I don't think I want to ask why,.......but dammit, I'm curious!!
>Jesse
>
>:)
>
>> Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully 
>> concealed a .32
>> ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.
>> -- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 16:32:51 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia

Who?  Me or Doug?

;)
Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Wayne Ewart
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 4:14 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia
> 
> 
> So, do you know any other party tricks <WEG> 
> 
> 
> >I don't think I want to ask why,.......but dammit, I'm curious!!
> >Jesse
> >
> >:)
> >
> >> Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully 
> >> concealed a .32
> >> ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.
> >> -- 
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 16:32:30
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 

At 12:09 PM 5/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello All
>
>Just got back from a 2+ month trip with the Navy(Halifax to Victoria via
>Panama). So what has been happening?

The Virus debate has flared up again.  I suggest volunteering for another
tour, preferably on a sub, to avoid it.

The biggest thing has been the Drop-Tank Thread That Would Not Die, and
reviews/commentary of Far Trader.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 16:36:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Ludwig's Mesonic Organ

At 05:54 PM 5/9/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Of course, if this were written by Wolfgang Amadeus Spofulam, it would
>be...
>
>A Free Meson Organ

GAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Ghu, Dammit!!  I just washed this shirt, and this was a full can of Coke!!
Not to mention now needing a new keyboard....

>And now, using the nuclear survival skills recalled by the "Fun With
>Nukes" thread, I am...
>
>ducking and covering!

I declare you Strjuka through out the area claimed by the Samband, and when
captured, you will be used as examples in the rewrite of ACQ.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Sjolidsforingi, Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins 
Gram, Sverdaheimssambandid
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 16:38:10
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia

At 03:42 PM 5/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I don't think I want to ask why,.......but dammit, I'm curious!!
>Jesse

Ask me at Baycon.. did you get the map I sent out?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 16:42:54 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Jesse has been found

That supposed to be funny Mr. Silva?

:P
Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Tascelt@aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 6:45 AM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Jesse has been found
> 
> 
> Yes, resend anything sent in last 3 weeks or so
> 
> TAS
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 16:52:59 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia:  clothes

SPLORK!!!!  ROFLMAO!!!!!

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Glenn M. Goffin
> Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 2:27 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia: clothes
> 
> 
> > From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> > Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia
> 
> > Then get ready for nude schooling, since I once sucessfully 
> concealed a .32
> > ACP and two magazines in my swim trunks.
> 
> "Is that a gun in your swim trunks or are you just glad ... oh, it is a
> gun in your swim trunks."
> 
> Would you mind showing us that particular concealed carry at the
> Baycon/Denny's dinner?
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 17:03:07 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: I'm back from sea 

You forgot the discussion about the Columbine High tragedy.
Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Douglas E. Berry
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:33 AM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 
> 
> 
> At 12:09 PM 5/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >Hello All
> >
> >Just got back from a 2+ month trip with the Navy(Halifax to Victoria via
> >Panama). So what has been happening?
> 
> The Virus debate has flared up again.  I suggest volunteering for another
> tour, preferably on a sub, to avoid it.
> 
> The biggest thing has been the Drop-Tank Thread That Would Not Die, and
> reviews/commentary of Far Trader.
> -- 
> 
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 17:13:12 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Patches

I'm all for it if SJG goes for it.  I think the suggestion of the "Beowulf"
and the LBB distress call on the back is outstanding.  Wish I'd thought of
it first :)

Best,
Jesse





> On the topis of T-Shirts - I have to agree with someone who said it would
> be nice to see some more imaginative designs - I'm after a full-colour
> Jesse Scout Ship pic! Or maybe a Beowulf Free Trader on the
> front, with the
> LBB distress call on the back!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
> of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
> position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 17:13:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

At 06:08 PM 5/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>One method the 3I might use to raise forces from among its member worlds is
>like so:  when a world joins the Imperium, there's a clause in the contract
>that says the world must provide military forces according to its ability.

This is drawn from my proposal for GT Ground Forces.

Each world of the Imperium is responsible for it's own defense out to ten
diameters or the orbit of the outermost moon.  In addition, planets which
own significant in-system facilities tend to post home-grown forces to
guard them.  These forces are known as Planetary defence forces, or PDFs.
PDFs contain everything we consider to be military power today.. troops,
ships, planes.

The Imperial Army (IA) is organized on a subsector level.  Since each
subsector faces different threats, this allows some level of customization
based on the local threat.

The troops for the IA are drawn from the subsector.  Since the IA is
relatively small, it can afford to be quite choosy about the recruits it
accepts.

For purposes of lineage, troops are assigned to a Regiment.  Regiments has
no real organizational existence, they simply give history and tradition to
the troops.  To keep Regimental numbers under control, a system of names
has evolved.  Most Regiments are named for the world or district on which
they were originally raised, though some carry more colorful designators.

The type of regiment is also indicated.  Units are allowed to use
alternates to the usual titles.  Infantry Regiments can be called 'Rifles',
'Guards', 'Grenadiers', or any other term indicating individual ground
troops.  Tank Regiments use terms like 'Horse', 'Cavalry', or 'Lancers' to
indicate their relation with animal-borne troops.

The basic combat unit of the IA is the Brigade.  A Lift Infantry Bde will
have three LI Battalions and a battalion of grav tanks, along with
engineers, an artillery battalion and other support troops.  A Grav Tank
Bde will reverse the ration of LI to GT.  The Brigades are designed to be
self-suffcient combat units, capable of being deployed for up to 90 days
without support.  There are, on average, 30 brigades in every subsector.

I based these numbers on _Fifth Frontier War_.  In that game, a single
battalion has combat factor of 1.  A Brigade has a factor of 10.  Since my
brigades only have five battalions in them, I explain the extra oomph being
a result of the effectiveness of combined arms operations, along with the
support troops.  A solitary battalion is meat, a Brigade is trouble.  The
same holds true for larger organizations.  (In _FFW_ terms, those 30
brigades in the subsector have a combat factor of 600, or one Field Army
and a spare Corps.)

When it comes to local feelings about the IA, it differs.  On many worlds
close to the Imperial Core, Defense is not a major issue, and rather than
build up large forces, they are content to pay a larger share of IA
maintenance.  On many frontier worlds, especially in the Spinward Marches,
service in the Imperial Military is considered almost a rite of passage.
Since the Army is the most accesable, it is the service of choice.  (One
regiment, the Jewell Borderers, has won the greatest number of SEHs in the
Imperium.  The Regimental motto is "Not One Inch of Soil"
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:48:27 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces
> Date: Sunday, 09 May, 1999 1:13 PM
> 
> At 06:08 PM 5/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >One method the 3I might use to raise forces from among its member worlds
is
> >like so:  when a world joins the Imperium, there's a clause in the
contract
> >that says the world must provide military forces according to its
ability.
> 
> This is drawn from my proposal for GT Ground Forces.
> The Imperial Army (IA) is organized on a subsector level.  Since each
> subsector faces different threats, this allows some level of
customization
> based on the local threat.

It also means that some subsectors will have only small numbers of forces,
especially ones with few worlds or lots of low-pop words.
 
> The troops for the IA are drawn from the subsector.  Since the IA is
> relatively small, it can afford to be quite choosy about the recruits it
> accepts.

Interesting.  Will they accept former service personnel from planetary
forces (and vice versa)?  

You do run the risk of the syndrome of elite forces, siphoning all the best
troops out of the planetary forces.  This may reduce their effectiveness,
and will breed lots of animosity between the two.

> For purposes of lineage, troops are assigned to a Regiment.  Regiments
has
> no real organizational existence, they simply give history and tradition
to
> the troops. 

I hope those regiments are kept together, preferably within the same
brigade, or they won't do a damn bit of good.  Witness the US Army's
"regimental" system.  A regiment can have battalions in three different
divisions and detailers make no particular effort to keep soldiers in the
same regiment from tour to tour.  Utterly worthless except to give soldiers
another patch to wear.

[snip excellent ideas]

I like this, mainly because it accords almost exactly with my own thinking.
 Have you read Col. MacGregor's _Breaking the Phalanx_?  It recommends an
organizational system very similar to this; regiment-sized combat groups
forming into corps-level forces without an intervening division structure. 
With the vastly improved C4I that should be possible in a high-tech
Imperial force, this becomes very feasible.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:48:19 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

In a message dated 5/9/99 5:18:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dberry@hooked.net 
writes:

<< This is drawn from my proposal for GT Ground Forces. >>

Doug; sounds great. Reminds me of MT's COACC...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 18:09:57 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Nightrim PBICQ Data Log 1.5 posted.

Evening all.  Just thought I'd let you all know that I've posted part
five of my continuing PBICQ game to my web site.

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Logbook/Log.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:11:18 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ludwig's Mesonic Organ

In a message dated 99-05-09 18:59:23 EDT, you write:

<< And now, using the nuclear survival skills recalled by the "Fun With
 Nukes" thread, I am...
 
 ducking and covering! >>

The best nuclear surivival skill that I can think of is first strike.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 18:13:31 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia

Actually Doug, private sales and gun show sales (in California at least)
STILL require DOJ (Dept of Justice) paperwork, a waiting period (14 days for
handgun, 12 for rifle IIRC), and transfer through a FFL dealer (Federal
Firearms License) to be LEGAL.  I had to wait 14 days for my USP purchased
at a regular gun store, and had to wait 12 days before I could collected the
AR15 Match that I purchased at the San Francisco gun show.

Of course, if you outlaw guns, criminals will still be able to get ahold of
them.

Jesse




> A couple of minor points.
>
> 1> AK-47s are banned in most of the US, as are the 30-round magazines they
> use.
>
> 2> Every weapon purchase (expect private sales or at a gunshow) requires a
> minimum five day waiting period and backround checks.
>
> Hardly dispensing them from vending machines.
> --
>
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 18:43:42 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia

Just get a copy of the book "More Guns, Less Crime : Understanding Crime and
Gun-Control Laws" by John R. Lott, Univ of Chicago Pr (Trd); ISBN:
0226493636 ($16.10 USD at Amazon.com).

If you can read this book and still tell me that you hate guns and no-one
should have them, then your views on the subject are obviously from an
emotional, rather than logical, viewpoint and you have my deepest sympathy.

Very Best,
Jesse
[Still trying to catch up to my inbox.  According to Doug Berry "The lost
Romanov heir is buried in you inbox."  :)  ]

p.s.  And I'm with you, Gary.  There are parts of San Jose that make me more
nervous than a long tailed cat in a roomfull of rocking chairs...



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of TravelrTNE@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 1:15 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia
>
>
> I've been avoiding this thread, as it just don't interest me.
>
> > The question arises, how did the kids get access to those kinds
> of firearms?
> > Of course, you can practically get AK-47s out of coin-operated vending
> > machines in most of the USA.
>
> Are you trolling?  I'll play if you really want to.  :-)  That
> has got to be
> a troll...
>
> > My apologies in advance to the American members on this
> > mailing list, but if these kids of weapons were restricted to
> begin with,
> > the tragedy could have been averted. I saw a list of the
> weapons they had --
> > most of which are, in Canada, illegal for a private citizen to own.
>
> It's a shame for Canadians, then.  And for all the disarmed
> proles of Europe.
>
> You'd have preferred if they hacked up a dozen schoolmates w/ knives or
> hatchets?  If i wanted to kill a dozen people, especially in a school, I
> *could* do so pretty effectively w/ just a good combat knife and the sick
> intentions to do so (which I thankfully lack).  Odds are I could
> chase down
> as many more, too, especially fat bodies or poor runners.
>
> Hell, I want California to relax its concealed weapons laws.  The
> credible
> studies show that responsible citizens w/ guns bring crime down.  The
> criminals get guns anyways.  There was just a good thread on this
> on USENET
> that cited many good references (rec.games.frp.misc, aside from the usual
> places).  If u want, I'll list em.
>
>
> Gary
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 19:00:52 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species
...
>It occurs to me to wonder how many Traveller characters would be bright
>enough to *survive* an attempt to land on Ringworld?
>
>I'd also like to hear the comments regarding the "meteor defense
>system" from the surviving ship(s) of a multi-ship group. :-)

  "Damn - their chief engineer owed me money..." ?

  or "I don't believe that a black globe would've helped them much."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:16:18 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Niven's Known Space species

In a message dated 99-05-09 22:03:59 EDT, you write:

<<   or "I don't believe that a black globe would've helped them much." >>

Is it just me or did the caps blow up?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 19:33:59 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia trying to get back OT

I apologize that I'm late on this thread (only 1,569 TML messages left!)...

Thought out?  Yeah, sure.  Emotional response vs. logical response, as I
pointed out a few messages ago.  A friend of mine and I were talking about
an encounter he had with an anti-gunner.  My friend Dan asked the lady "If
****ALL**** INJURY, VIOLENCE, AND CRIME with firearms were magically wiped
out, would she still want all firearms banned?"  She said "YES, OF COURSE!!"
and then realized how silly and illogical that sounded.  This is an extreme
example of the emotional responses in this argument.  As a gun owner am I
emotional about this argument from the pro-gun side?  Admittedly, to a minor
extent (is there a Gun Geek code that expresses your exact views?), but at
least the *facts* of the FBI's own crime statistics back up my views by much
more than the statistical error variance.  Again, see "More Guns, Less Crime
: Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws" by John R. Lott, Univ of Chicago
Pr (Trd); ISBN: 0226493636.

I'll try to keep out of this now, I promise :)


Best,
Jesse



[snippage]
 But I do feel that the restrictions we currently have in the
> US, let alone the ones in most of Europe, are far too severe, and
> generally
> poorly thought out.
>
>           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
[snip sig]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:30:10 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
So the logical conclusion of the CT trade rules is that there is
actually no significant long distance freight. Instead all long
distance trade is cargo carried aboard ships owned by the trading
company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMO that's exactly what's going on here. The CT trade rules were 
designed to specifically model the trade opportunities open to a small
trading vessel operating off the scraps megacorps leave behind, they 
were not designed with the possibility of a PC group competing in the
same niche as a megacorp. Anything long-distance is probably going
on a 10KdTn+ megacorp trade vessel.

This doesn't explain why you can't charge more to move cargo one jump6
than you can charge to move it one jump1. Unless some megacorp
fleet is providing service that's so pervasive that the megacorp charges
by time instead of distance, with cost of travel distances eaten up in
the volume of trade? 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:37:19 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drop tank numbers

David P. Summers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>Drop tanks are cheaper than internal tankage.

Well, then the ship without internal tanks should have been cheaper.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
They are, in a way. A 200dtn free trader minus 20dtns of internal fuel
tanks only has to buy 180dtns of hull - that saves about 2MCr. Of course,
those 20dTns of tanks would be much more durable and dependable if
they were part of the hull instead of some welded-on gas cans.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:58:50 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

In a message dated 5/9/99 5:52:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< Have you read Col. MacGregor's _Breaking the Phalanx_?  It recommends an
 organizational system very similar to this; regiment-sized combat groups
 forming into corps-level forces without an intervening division structure. 
 With the vastly improved C4I that should be possible in a high-tech
 Imperial force, this becomes very feasible.
  >>

How do you find this book? It sounds VERY interesting...I liked General 
Patton's quote (I think?) that you need to know what your immediate 
subordinates are doing and where they are, and you need to be able to 
understand what your immediate subordinates are doing with their subordinate 
units (a rough paraphrase...). Thus you need three levels of command, and 
with the Corps as a Grand Tactical command echelon (i.e., battle management), 
you would need two lower echelons of tactical command. I guess Division and 
Brigade/Regiment, or Brigade and Battalion would work, depending on what size 
unit you want for your lowest command echelon (the smallest independent 
fighting combat command). I prefer the Battalion for this, but a 2-3 
Battalion Regiment/Brigade is workable too...

Ob: Trav: How do you model the three level echelon command system, when FFW 
and IE have units ranging from Battalion all the way up to Army Group?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #595
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Monday, May 10 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 596



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Genes, Bloodlines, and Descent
Re: Bayonets
GURPS Traveller T-Shirts
Re: Nightrim PBICQ Data Log 1.5 posted.
Re: Nightrim PBICQ Data Log 1.5 posted.
Re: bad leaders
Re: I'm back from sea 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: Nightrim PBICQ Data Log 1.5 posted. 
Re: I'm back from sea 
Re: Patrol Cruiser
Re: Patrol Cruiser 
Re: Starship Depreciation
Norfolk class Destroyer
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Norfolk class Destroyer
Re: Norfolk class Destroyer
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 18:31:45 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 03:42 PM 5/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >I don't think I want to ask why,.......but dammit, I'm curious!!
> >Jesse
>
> Ask me at Baycon.. did you get the map I sent out?

Hey Doug, what's our head count?

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 18:35:37 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 05/09/99 at 05:54 PM,  AveNelso@aol.com said:
>
> >       Perhaps  starships are not a depeciating asset, as automobiles are,
> >but rather retain most of their value, as houses and other real
> >property do  (makes it easier to run a campaign this way--who cares
> >how old it is, if it  works then full price)
>
> Ships are a better model for starships than automobiles, IMO.
> However, ships...like houses do deteriate over time becoming worth
> less (as opposed to worthless) even if they are maintained.  I'd say
> the useful life should be measured in decades, but probably not
> centuries.
>
> One reason for having lower prices on older starships is to put them
> within the price range of our adventurers.

Yah rember who posted the Lloyds of London ship ratings? That gave a
good RW picture.

IMTU, I assign all the major systems a wear rating 'ala TNE and adverage
the overall percentage of price from there.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:20:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Genes, Bloodlines, and Descent

In mail you write:

> See: http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/050999lemba-jewish-gene=
> s.html (NY Times, May 9, 1999)
>
> Ttile: Group in Africa Has Jewish Roots, DNA Indicates
>
> Summary: genetic scientist's have confirmed a Black African
> tribe's claim to be decended from the Levites, a jewish tribe from
> Moses' era tasked with the duties of the priesthood.
>
> Quote from the article:
>
> "Unlike the other chromosomes, the genetic material on the Y
> chromosome is not shuffled every generation, obscuring the lines of
> individual descent. Y chromosomes are bequeathed from father to son,
> more or less unchanged apart from the occasional mutation. "

> Traveller connection:
>   1) it's look's like that family decent is only genetically
> traceable by the father's line.  This would have an impact on legal
> inheritance law's in the Imperium: possibly only to the Solomani, but
> also possibly to all humaniti.

Not true. You can trace *specific* descent fairly easily. But you need
data from *both* parents. 

>   2) it's possible to trace bloodlines back at least a 2,600 - 3,200 year
> timeframe.  This will certainly impact most Noble family histories, and
> possibly the Vilani the most.

No. What they were able to demonstrate, was that descent from a *group*
with some distinctive genetic markers on the Y chromosome can be traced
that far. 

Descent from an *individual* isn't going to be traceable that way. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:04:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bayonets

In mail you write:

>>A GURPS Monowire sword/knife/bayonet would be effective against BD that's
>>as light as the stuff in canonical Traveller (not the abomination that is
>>in Star Mercs... )  OTOH, Monowire isn't really canon AFAIK.
>
> Which is a good thing, IMHO.
>
> The stress on a wire is inversely proportional to its cross-section area.
> The stress exerted by a wire is proportional to the surface area in
> contact. For anything that cuts like a sword or knife, the cutting area
> must be much larger than the cross-section. So that a monofilament won't
> break, its tensile strength must be greater than the cross-section stress.
> For a monowire, the stress on the cutting surface will be less than the
> scross-sectional stress.
>
> At the atomic level, cutting an object requires pulling its components
> outside the range of their mutual attraction. This requires overcoming its
> tensile strength, whether you do it by tearing or cleaving interatomic
> bonds.
>
> Therefore, to make anything impervious to a monowire sword just coat it
> with a microthin layer of the same material the sword is made of. No matter
> how strong the material, the force required to cut through is more than the
> force holding your sword together.
>
> The idea of monowire swords is feasible, in fact existing tools like cheese
> cutters work on the principle. What is not feasible is the idea that a
> monowire can cut through anything with no extra effort and without breaking.

Actually "super-strong" materials *do* have some similarities to
monowire. Carbon fiber must be handled with care, as the carbon
"whiskers" are very thin *AND* both strong and rigid enough to slice
thru skin, muscle and tendon with next to no effort. They are
sufficiently *brittle* enough that the side stress will break them
before they do much more than notch bone.

As pointed out in the story that first used the "super strong wire" as
knife gimmick, you need something stronger than what you are cutting to
anchor the wire. In the story ("Thin Edge"), the trick was used twice.
First, the hero strung some across a doorway (anchored into the
metal(?) of the frame). Sliced up an intruder nicely. Second, while in
a cell, he took a strand that had been hidden in his hair and
*carefully* strung it from a decorative hook on his belt, past the far
side of a bar, and onto another hook on the belt. The hooks were coated
with synthetic sapphire. So they were toughter than the steel bars. 

And, btw, he had to lean back with his weight pulling on the wire to
cut thru the bars. Hardly "effortless". 

Oh yeah, as he demonstrated, a cut off section of steel bar makes a
great improvised weapon.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 22:13:06 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller T-Shirts

Just wanted to mention, I finally received my own GURPS Traveller
t-shirt yesterday. It looks GREAT. (And it was a hit at my
bi-weekly GURPS Traveller game session last night.)



     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 21:13:18 -0700
From: "Blood God" <bloodly@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: Nightrim PBICQ Data Log 1.5 posted.

I went to your site and didn't find an answer so I'll ask it here. Dumb question: what is PBICQ?

- ---
Blood
======================================
RPG Host - Free role-playing services!
           http://www.rpghost.com
======================================


On Sun, 09 May 1999 18:09:57   Derek Stanley wrote:
>Evening all.  Just thought I'd let you all know that I've posted part
>five of my continuing PBICQ game to my web site.
>
>http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Logbook/Log.html
>
>


- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 21:13:18 -0700
From: "Blood God" <bloodly@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: Nightrim PBICQ Data Log 1.5 posted.

I went to your site and didn't find an answer so I'll ask it here. Dumb question: what is PBICQ?

- ---
Blood
======================================
RPG Host - Free role-playing services!
           http://www.rpghost.com
======================================


On Sun, 09 May 1999 18:09:57   Derek Stanley wrote:
>Evening all.  Just thought I'd let you all know that I've posted part
>five of my continuing PBICQ game to my web site.
>
>http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Logbook/Log.html
>
>


- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:37:48 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: bad leaders

Date sent:      	Sun, 09 May 1999 16:01:00 -0600
From:           	cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>

>>McClellan wasn't a "bad leader" as such. He was a superb admistrator
>>and extremely charismatic leader. He single handedly rebuilt the Union
>>army after 1st Bull Run.

[snip]

>>McClellan was a staff officer
>>par excellance who was placed in a command position he knew he
>>could not fufill.

>An interesting (?) side anecdote about McClellan was that he ran
>on the Democratic ticket for President in the 1864 election. One of
>the planks in the Democrat platform was to end the war. Although
>Lincoln won 212 votes in the Electoral college to McClellan's 21,
>the popular vote was only 55% for Lincoln.

[snip]

>For the life of me I can't possibly think of an ObTrav... :)

McClellan would make a wonderful NPC for a war background. A sort of
tragic character, brilliant in his field but placed in a position he knows
he is totally unable to fill, but forced to try to do it anyway.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 21:43:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 
...
>The biggest thing has been the Drop-Tank Thread That Would Not Die, and
>reviews/commentary of Far Trader.

  Well, they are supposed to be an endurance-enhancing technology :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 00:59:35 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

I've got alot of digests to go through still and will get around to some 
responses probably tommorrow afternoon.  

That sound you hear is me sharpening my teeth.  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:23:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Nightrim PBICQ Data Log 1.5 posted. 

> I went to your site and didn't find an answer so I'll ask it here. Dumb question: what is PBICQ?

'Play by ICQ'.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:25:02 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 

> >From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> >Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 
> ...
> >The biggest thing has been the Drop-Tank Thread That Would Not Die, and
> >reviews/commentary of Far Trader.
> 
>   Well, they are supposed to be an endurance-enhancing technology :)

Too many people want to use them as an endurance-replacing technology.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 23:56:38 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Patrol Cruiser

At 07:56 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I just completed a GURPs version of the Patrol Cruiser w/deckplans.
>
>http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Trenchant.html
>
>As always, comments are welcome/desired.
>
>Paul Schirf
>Paul@Schirf.com
>

  So this is how good CC2 makes Ship plans. I think I will have to Invest
in CC2.
  Thanks

  Joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:49:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Patrol Cruiser 

> At 07:56 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >I just completed a GURPs version of the Patrol Cruiser w/deckplans.
> >
> >http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Trenchant.html
> >
> >As always, comments are welcome/desired.
> 
>   So this is how good CC2 makes Ship plans. I think I will have to Invest
> in CC2.

Too bad they don't do a Linux port.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:00:08 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

>Ships are a better model for starships than automobiles, IMO.
>However, ships...like houses do deteriate over time becoming worth
>less (as opposed to worthless) even if they are maintained.  I'd say
>the useful life should be measured in decades, but probably not
>centuries.

Canon states useful life as bing at least a century, especially for military
ships. Look at the Kinunnir lists, for example.

This makes sense, the oldest working oyster boat in Dunedin just turned 100
yesterday, and anyone remember how old the Mary Rose was when she went down
?

Space-ships should, barring accidents, last a lot longer than sea-going
vessels, space isn't as corrosive as salt-water

>One reason for having lower prices on older starships is to put them
>within the price range of our adventurers.

Agree with that one though.

But I've always had designer ships that increased in value as they got older
and rarer as well.

"That's a De Gussi from his Blue period, complete with fluted drive grilles,
and  double reverse overhead drop tank couplings and chrome-plated
sandcaster barrels. I haven't seen a ship like that since I left Capital !
What's she worth to you ?"

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 02:32:46 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Norfolk class Destroyer

Hi,
What fallows is the designers notes and what I could do of the finished 
product.  This is the largest ship that I have designed (so far) any comments 
questions, mistakes, ect are welcomed.
- -Stephen

(View in ASCII)

Norfolk 1000 tonns

Item					Volume	Power	Cost	Area	Crew	
Notes
Hull					+14,000	-	-	+3640	-	
Needle
Airlocks (10)				-30	-0.01	+0.05	-20	-	
- -
Hull (10Gs)				-26	-	+0.364	-	-	
Superdense 
Armour(30R)				-78	-	+1.092	-	-	
Superdense
Jump-3					-560	-	+168	-187	
Mx3.36	-
6 Parsec fuel range			-8400	-	-	-	-	
- -
6G Thrust Plate				-150	-150	+37.5	-30	Mx0.6	
(realy 2x3G)
4xStandard Missile Launchers		-168	-0.6	+0.32	-80	Gn4, 
Mx0.24 Missile Mass 7
12xHeavy Missile Launchers		-1008	-1.8	+1.32	-192	
Gn12,Mx1.8
100xMissiles				-700	-	-	-	-	
Need Cost
4x95Mj Laser Turrets			-168	-10.56	+5.72	-40	
Gn4,Mx0.48
8x143Mj Laser Turrets			-672	-29.36	+48.64	-128	
Gn8,Mx1.92		
8x251Mj Laser Turrets			-672	-55.76	+19.44	-128	
Gn8,Mx2.24
2xR1 Nuclear Dampers			-166	-30	+4.1	-15	
Gn2Mx0.32
1xMeson Screens				-207	-10	+20.7	-100	
Gn1.6Mx0.4
2xSand Caster				-84	-3	+1.4	-20	
Gn2Mx0.2
Dynamic Controls			-14	-1	+1.5	-	-	
- -
Mill Sen				-37.9	-106.8	+74.91	-288	
El11Mx0.13
Life Support				-8	-0.2	+0.4	-	-	
- -
Artificial Gravity			-140	-7	+7	-	
Mx0.56	-
4x125Mw Power Plant			-500	+500	+50	-500	
En20.4	-
Fuel for Power Plants (1 Year)		-60	-	-	-	-	
- -
11xLarge Staterooms			-616	-0.011	+1.1	-	-	
- -
71xSmall Staterooms			-1988	-0.0355	+2.84	-	-	
- -	
16xBridge Workstations			-224	-	+0.024	-	-	
- -
47xWorkstations				-329	-	+0.0705	-	-	
- -
- -3 Parsec jump range			+4200	-	-	-	-	
- -
700/6hrs fuel prosesing			-280	-4.2	+0.112	-	-	
- -
Fuel Scoops				-	-	+0.06825 -910	-	
- -
3xLarge Cargo Hatch			-	-	+0.06	-60	-	
- -
	Total				914.1	89.6635	446.73075 1012	-	
- -

				Norfolk-class Destroyer
Tons	1000	Volume			14000	Cost in Mcr	402
Crew	  82	Passengers High/Medium	0/0	Passengers Low	  0
Cargo	 914 	Controls		Dynamic	Tech Level	 12

9 Size Rating				3 Jump Rating
0 Fire Control Rating			6 G Rating/Maenuver Drive
## Missile Battery - ##,##,##		1 Power Plant Rating
## Heavy Missile Battery - ##,##,##	4260 Fuel Rating S/R
## Laser Battery - ##,##,##		## Meson Screen Rating
## Laser Battery - ##,##,##		2(48) Sand Caster Rating
## Laser Battery - ##,##,##		2 Damper Rating
					## A ## P ## J (Mask) Sensor Rating
					
					30 Armor	10 Strucure
			
Engineering Crew:  	5
Eng 2:			3
Electronics Crew:  	3
Maneuver Crew:     	2
Gunnery Crew:      	39
Maint:			4
Troops:            	10
Command Crew:      	11
Stewards:          	2
Medical:           	1	
Misc:			2

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:29:38 -0500
From: Warlord <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

At 06:00 PM 5/10/99 +1200, you wrote:
>Space-ships should, barring accidents, last a lot longer than sea-going
>vessels, space isn't as corrosive as salt-water
>
>>One reason for having lower prices on older starships is to put them
>>within the price range of our adventurers.
>
>Agree with that one though.
>
>But I've always had designer ships that increased in value as they got older
>and rarer as well.
>
>"That's a De Gussi from his Blue period, complete with fluted drive grilles,
>and  double reverse overhead drop tank couplings and chrome-plated
>sandcaster barrels. I haven't seen a ship like that since I left Capital !
>What's she worth to you ?"
>
>Frankie


  IMTU (CT rules) the players have a 300yr old Serpent class scout, which
is a prestigious ship because of it's age and the fact that many famous
scout captains had used as there first command. The ship has been in
Semi-retirement for over a hundred years, but noteworthy Scouts that retire
can request it as a muster benefit (three or more rolls).


 \        /  /\   |'''\  |     /'''\  |'''\  |''\ 
  \  /\  /  /__\  |___|  |    (     ) |___|  |   )
   \/  \/  /    \ |   \  |___  \___/  |   \  |__/ 
      When you can't Conquer them DESTROY them.
           warlord@emerado.polaristel.net
                warlord@means.net             

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:23:42 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Norfolk class Destroyer

At 02:32 10/05/1999 EDT, SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
>Hi,
>What fallows is the designers notes and what I could do of the finished 
>product.  This is the largest ship that I have designed (so far) any
comments 
>questions, mistakes, ect are welcomed.
>-Stephen

<snip>

First a couple of additional bits of info are required:

	Design system
	Tech Level

Then you need to check your spreadsheet formatting because the weapon
stats are ##.

Finally, a paragraph describing the intended role of the ship.

Comments

Having fuel for 2xJ-3 seems a bit too much - J-3 + J-1 ought to be
enough for most purposes and for many ship roles, fuel for a single
J-3 would be used, with tankers supplying the additional fuel.

I assume that the 2 x 3G does not mean that the ship does not have 6G
capability. What is rating of the Anti Grav - can the ship use 6G in combat?

Armour 30 seems a bit light for a military ship.

Your laser batteries seem a bit odd - specifically the 251MJ lasers
taking more power than the 143MJ but costing less.
And lacking the stats and the range notes, I'm not sure why the ship
has the 143MJ batteries.

Finally, your ship seems too cheap.

A rough guideline is civilian at 100KCr/dton, Military at 1MCr/dton.
So your ship at 400LCr/dton falls into the paramilitary camp.

I hope this doesn't seem too negative a review.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 03:37:31 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Norfolk class Destroyer

In a message dated 99-05-10 03:27:52 EDT, you write:

<< First a couple of additional bits of info are required:
 
 	Design system
 	Tech Level

xxxx
I think is there, at any rate it is done with SSDS Beta at TL-12.
xxxx
 
 Then you need to check your spreadsheet formatting because the weapon
 stats are ##.

xxxx
I don't have a spreadsheet and I could not find the values for those areas. 
xxxx

 Finally, a paragraph describing the intended role of the ship.

xxxx
Okay, this ship is designed at a fleet combatont/fire support ship.
xxxx
 
 Comments
 
 Having fuel for 2xJ-3 seems a bit too much - J-3 + J-1 ought to be
 enough for most purposes and for many ship roles, fuel for a single
 J-3 would be used, with tankers supplying the additional fuel.

xxxx
There is an entry -3 parsecs, I had to take out 3 psc of range to make 
everything fit.
xxxx 

 I assume that the 2 x 3G does not mean that the ship does not have 6G
 capability. What is rating of the Anti Grav - can the ship use 6G in combat?

xxxx
All that it means in that it is two thrust plates that perduce up to 3 Gs 
each, for a total of 6Gs.
xxxx
 
 Armour 30 seems a bit light for a military ship.

xxxx
Okay, I'll make it heavyer.
xxxx 

 Your laser batteries seem a bit odd - specifically the 251MJ lasers
 taking more power than the 143MJ but costing less.
 And lacking the stats and the range notes, I'm not sure why the ship
 has the 143MJ batteries.

xxxx
I'll double check everything, and upgrade the weapons systems.
xxxx
 
 Finally, your ship seems too cheap.

xxxx
SSDS give a 10% discount.
xxxx
 
 A rough guideline is civilian at 100KCr/dton, Military at 1MCr/dton.
 So your ship at 400LCr/dton falls into the paramilitary camp.

xxxx
with a total of 16 missile launchers and 20 laser turrets I would say that it 
military, alto paramilitary would also work.  Maybe as a "coast guard" ship 
or something?
xxxx
 
 I hope this doesn't seem too negative a review.
 
 Phil Kitching >>

Not at all, I'll see what I can do about fixing it and corecting what you 
pointed out.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:14:58 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

At 22:30 09/05/1999 -0400, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:
>Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>So the logical conclusion of the CT trade rules is that there is
>actually no significant long distance freight. Instead all long
>distance trade is cargo carried aboard ships owned by the trading
>company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>IMO that's exactly what's going on here. The CT trade rules were 
>designed to specifically model the trade opportunities open to a small
>trading vessel operating off the scraps megacorps leave behind, they 
>were not designed with the possibility of a PC group competing in the
>same niche as a megacorp. Anything long-distance is probably going
>on a 10KdTn+ megacorp trade vessel.
>
>This doesn't explain why you can't charge more to move cargo one jump6
>than you can charge to move it one jump1. Unless some megacorp
>fleet is providing service that's so pervasive that the megacorp charges
>by time instead of distance, with cost of travel distances eaten up in
>the volume of trade?

It is possible that with almost all trade being cargo, the megacorps
offer free space on their ships at marginal cost, ie 1KCr/dton.
This would mostly seem to be designed to stop tramp freighters getting
into the long haul freight market. Logically, the available space
must be somewhat limited, otherwise they would be subsidising their
competitors.

There might be some Imperial rules requiring the freight prices to be
a certain level to encourage trade, although the logic of this would
be freight sitting around the starport, waiting for someone going in
the right direction with spare space and moving freight any distance
will take forever. Unless there is either a supply of soon to be
bankrupt small freighters or the freight owner decides to pay extra
to "charter" a ship.

I seem to recall many patron encounters along the lines of
"can you ship this 10dton crate several parsecs for 1MCr?"

So the standard freight rates do not seem encourage rapid travel times.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #596
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 10 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 597



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Population modelling
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)
Re: Norfolk class Destroyer
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re:accidents
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: G:T Far Trader stuff
Re: Norfolk Class
Re: G:T Far Trader stuff
M:IW - Yorktown class Battlecruiser
Post TNE ship design rules
Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
RE: Gene Bank
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks
Re: 3I raising military forces
RE: Stupid RPG Tricks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:35:39 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Population modelling

Matthew Bond wrote:

> Hmmm....you might want more females than males if you want to have
> polygamy <g>
> (or vice versa for polyandry). Otherwise you have to share wives with
> other husbands (dunno what that would be called... polygandry
> p'raps...) etc. or only have monogamy.
> 
> 400 adult sophonts....say 100m and 300f....would probably suffice for
> genetic diversity, IIRC the low estimate for Homo Sapiens occupying
> the whole world outside of Africa requires a breeding population of
> only  c1000 leaving Africa c.50-100000 BP (known as the Out of Africa
> II theory).
> 
> regards
> 
> Matt

A year or so ago someone posted extracts from an animal husbandary paper on
population diversity. There was a nice little equation in it that when you
work it out the minimum number of sophonts you need to keep genetic diversity
in the population (using the best posible breeding statergy) you end up with
the answer of 26 (13 male and 13 female). This makes nearly all planetary
populations in Traveller genetical viable.

The paper is in the digests somewhere, I'll try and dig it out if I get the time.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:56:10 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)

Party:	How do we stop an 8' tall shambling mound?

Thief:	I seem to recall something about lightning bolts...

Party:	Zapidity-zap-zap-zap

Thief:	...don't use lightning bolts - it make them stronger.

Party:	How do we stop an 12' tall shambling mound?


(The party's fighter later took several points of damage from supporting
 fire and was finally "healed" by the cleric using a cursed ring of healing.)


In Aftermath:

party escaping from mission on an airfield, rushes over to a helicopter.
A short debate as to "can anyone fly a helicopter?"

One guy yells "I have helicopter skill!" and climbs in the pilot seat.

They are just about to take off when the co-pilot has the presence of
mind to ask "How much?" before leaping from the helicopter, jumping
into a truck and crashing out through the gates.

And later...

Mick "SOTU" Smith has been tasked to perform a close up assassination
mission. One of the players has an idea of how to improve his chances
of success. So the night before he creeps into SOTU's room, opens his
backpack, chuckles, and puts something in.

Next day, during an epuipment check, SOTU is angry to discover that
*two* people separately had the idea of putting a claymore mine in
his backpack.

SOTU - Saviour of the Universe.

In Traveller:

SOTU "captures" a shuttle by standing on the bridge and firing an FGMP15.
IIRC, the rules say that it doesn't need battledress to use one.

And finally, a traveller group after information, capture two lackeys.
a prolonged period of interrogation ensues with the threat level
escalating to the point where they kill one so that the other realises
that they mean business. Ultimatley the never resolve the problems
of not speaking each other's language and end up withy two bodies
and no information. At which point the "intelligence officer" reveals
that he could read their minds psionically...if they were alive.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:03:54 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Norfolk class Destroyer

At 03:37 10/05/1999 EDT, SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
>> Finally, your ship seems too cheap.
>
>SSDS give a 10% discount.

Uh, my mistyping, I meant that you should be spending more on a combat ship,
not that you'd calculated the price wrong.

>> A rough guideline is civilian at 100KCr/dton, Military at 1MCr/dton.
>> So your ship at 400LCr/dton falls into the paramilitary camp.
>
>with a total of 16 missile launchers and 20 laser turrets I would say that
it 
>military, alto paramilitary would also work.  Maybe as a "coast guard" ship 
>or something?

I could go with a "coast guard" or "police" vessel, but I need a role to
justify the Jump-3.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 03:22:40
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

At 06:31 PM 5/9/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Hey Doug, what's our head count?

<looks confused> ummm... one per body, I should hope.

Ohh!  About ten or so.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 07:32:08 -0300
From: Les_Howie@keane.com
Subject: Re:accidents

Glenn Goffin Wrote
Subject: accidents will happen


>This sounds more like a seed for Call of Cthulhu or Shadowrun, I guess.

Virus infected homicidal hay-shredders?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 06:40:28 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

- ----------
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces
> Date: Sunday, 09 May, 1999 10:58 PM
> 
> In a message dated 5/9/99 5:52:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:
> 
> << Have you read Col. MacGregor's _Breaking the Phalanx_?  It recommends
an
>  organizational system very similar to this; [snip]
> 
> How do you find this book? It sounds VERY interesting...

You can get it through Amazon.com, though it's not cheap.

Breaking the Phalanx 
by Douglas A. MacGregor, Donald Kagan 
Our Price: $31.25
Paperback - 304 pages (January 1997) 
Praeger Pub Text; ISBN: 0275957942 ; 

It's something of a hot topic within the Pentagon.  A reorganization along
these lines was apparently seriously considered for Force XXI, but was
rejected at the Chief of Staff level.

I liked General 
> Patton's quote (I think?) that you need to know what your immediate 
> subordinates are doing and where they are, and you need to be able to 
> understand what your immediate subordinates are doing with their
subordinate 
> units (a rough paraphrase...). Thus you need three levels of command, and

> with the Corps as a Grand Tactical command echelon (i.e., battle
management), 
> you would need two lower echelons of tactical command. 

Patton's truism (not really unique to him) applies at all levels.  A unit
commander should order his immediate subordinates and be aware of the
actions of their immediate subordinates.  Thus a Division CO orders his
brigades and knows what his battalions are doing; a platoon leader orders
his squads and knows where his fire teams are.  (At least that's the
theory)


Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:02:39 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader stuff

>From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
>Subject: GT: Far Trader trade route question
>
>I have finished entering the data for the spinward marches into an 
>access database and am working up the approprate queries to have it 
>tell me the trade routes from any one world to all the rest before 
>I make a map of the trade routes. A question has came up for me.

Once you have the map, could you please send me a copy, and a list of each
world with it's highest BTN ?

Can it be used to measure the trade throughput of a given starport (not
just that worlds trade, but also trade that goes thru it to other worlds) ?

The final issue is astrography - for example, Collace to Asteline is 8
parsecs in a straight line, but astrography enforces 10. This cuts what
would be an 8 relationship to a 7.5.

Seriously, talk to SJG about what you've done.

>On page 14, it talks about different allegences will cause a -.5 
>to the bilateral trade number. What about client states to thier 
>overlords? Is there a drop in trade between an Imperial client 
>state and an Imperial world? Between Imperial client states?

I'd say 'no' - check out the discussion on Imperial Tariffs. Chris Thrash
or John Macpherson would probably be the best people for a definitive
answer though.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:38:09 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Norfolk Class

>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Norfolk class Destroyer
>
>Hi,
>What fallows is the designers notes and what I could do of the finished 
>product.  This is the largest ship that I have designed (so far) any
comments 
>questions, mistakes, ect are welcomed.
>- -Stephen
>
>				Norfolk-class Destroyer
>Tons	1000	Volume			14000	Cost in Mcr	402
>Crew	  82	Passengers High/Medium	0/0	Passengers Low	  0
>Cargo	 914 	Controls		Dynamic	Tech Level	 12
>
>9 Size Rating				3 Jump Rating
>0 Fire Control Rating			6 G Rating/Maenuver Drive
>## Missile Battery - ##,##,##		1 Power Plant Rating
>## Heavy Missile Battery - ##,##,##	4260 Fuel Rating S/R
>## Laser Battery - ##,##,##		## Meson Screen Rating
>## Laser Battery - ##,##,##		2(48) Sand Caster Rating
>## Laser Battery - ##,##,##		2 Damper Rating
>					## A ## P ## J (Mask) Sensor Rating
>					
>					30 Armor	10 Strucure

Quick points.

1000 dtons is a bad size for a military ship IMO. Too big for an expendable
picket, too small to put real (bay/spinal) weapons on.

In my strong opinion, a military ship should have enough armour to shrug
off the biggest laser it expects to face. Lasers have a maximum output of
TL*50 MJ. Unless you can do this, civilians can hurt you, and that is Bad.

A limiting factor on thrust has traditionally been compensator technology.
TL 12 can build 3G compensators, so the crew of a 6G TL12 ship will likely
be wearing three gees in all sorts of odd directions (random maneuvers to
exploit speed-of-light lag and all that).

With only 525 MW of power, the thing cant stay in jump-3 space. J3 should
cost about 75 MW per 100 dtons to stay in jumpspace, so the Norfolk class
should mount at least 750 MW of power, plus about 50 to run life support,
artificial gravity, the computers etc.

I dont like small meson screens. Basically, meson guns will tend to be
pretty big (1), so either get a chunky one or pray that you dodge.

Think about mounting more sandcasters in place of missiles or lasers,
unless you have enough armour to be laser-proof. In my opinion you need 1
sandcaster per expected enemy.

Welcome to geahead-land :)

Ian Whitchurch 

(1) I know, I know. Ditzie shoved a Spinal Meson Gun into one of Andrew
Vallance's Jump-2 TL11 Interstellar Wars freighters.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 05:48:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader stuff

- --- Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
 
> >I have finished entering the data for the spinward marches into an 
> >access database and am working up the approprate queries to have it 
> >tell me the trade routes from any one world to all the rest before 
> >I make a map of the trade routes. A question has came up for me.
> 
> Once you have the map, could you please send me a copy, and a list of
> each world with it's highest BTN ?

Certainly, once SJ Games has looked it over and pronounced it 
suitable for distibution for the map and the list when I get 
a suitable query worked up. 

> Can it be used to measure the trade throughput of a given 
> starport(not just that worlds trade, but also trade that 
> goes thru it to her worlds) ?

The purpose is to let me map the trade routes both to and through 
the complete sector. I am not certain how long it will take to 
figure out how to do it. Entering the raw data might be the easiest 
part. <g>

> The final issue is astrography - for example, Collace to Asteline 
> is 8 parsecs in a straight line, but astrography enforces 10. 
> This cuts what would be an 8 relationship to a 7.5.

Hmm. That's a good point. If I have to refigure distance based on 
actual travel distance, that will modify this whole project. That 
is a good question for those that figured this process out in the 
first place. Well guys?
 
> Seriously, talk to SJG about what you've done.

Right now, I have not done anything other that get the raw data 
entered. I will certainly let them know when I have the map done.
I will also let them look over the database and make certain 
I can pass it out for others to modify as the want for other 
data searches.
 
> >On page 14, it talks about different allegences will cause a -.5 
> >to the bilateral trade number. What about client states to thier 
> >overlords? Is there a drop in trade between an Imperial client 
> >state and an Imperial world? Between Imperial client states?
> 
> I'd say 'no' - check out the discussion on Imperial Tariffs. Chris
> Thrash or John Macpherson would probably be the best people for a 
> definitive answer though.

I am leaning towards thinking 'no' but would like for one of them 
to verify that for me before I work out the actual query.

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:46:27 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: M:IW - Yorktown class Battlecruiser

Ark Royal, Yorktown class Battlecruiser (FF&S v2)
Designed by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

Statistics
 Tons: 35,000 Td (SL Wedge Hypersonic)
 Crew: 1198/1395
 Cargo: 200 Td (4 x Large Cargo Hatches, Handling: 4 x 700 ton)
 Volume: 490,000m3
 Passengers High/Med: 5/20
 Cost: 59,128.561 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 823,815t/810,417t
 Passengers Low: 0
 Maintenance Points: 37,729
 Dimensions: 246.5m x 169.2m x 70.4m
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Tech Level: 12
 Size: 10
 Frozen Watch: 0

Electronics
 Controls (Arm: 100 [794]): Dynamic, Standard automation.
                            26 x FibComp (CM: 0.35 CP: 2.86).
                            Bridge (Arm: 100 [794]).
 Communications (Arm: 100 [794]): 1 x TB Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW).
                                  1 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors (Arm: 100 [794]): 1 x PEMS (14 [50mkm], 0.1MW).
                           1 x AEMS (12 [1.6mkm], 25MW).
                           1 x LIDAR (15.5 [5mkm], 6MW).
 Survey/Science (Arm :100 [794]): 1 x Densitometer (8 [50km]).
                                  1 x Neutrino (9 [500km], 50MW).
 ECM (Arm: 100  [794]): 1 x Radio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW).
                        1 x Area. Jammer (12, 1562.5MW).
                        1 x Decp. Jammer (13, 31.25MW).
                        1 x Pas. Jammer (16, 12.5MW).
 Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:1 (0.5 at 84621MW, 0.5 at 11723MW), Act:0, Neu:2,
             Grav:2

Weaponry
 24 x Light Laser Turret (+4) 1/6-0-0-0 [4,800/21-11-6-3] (LR, Arm: 60 [296])
 8 x Light Laser Bay (+4) 1/9-9-9-6 [8,800/21-21-21-12] (LR, Arm: 80 [497])
 12 x Missile Bay Auto 4/4 (Mag: 28, MFD: 500,000km, Arm: 80 [497])
      w/32 Cmd DL 1d6/3 [113] 13G/10 500,000km
 1 x Spinal Meson (+4) 2/10-10-9-6 [1,50/745-745-496-248] 
       (LR, Arm: 100 [794])

Performance
 3 Jump (3500 Td/pc fuel, Arm: 100 [794])
 4/4 Manoeuvre (Thruster: 81,352MW, Arm: 100 [794])
 0/0 Contra-grav
 4,418kph/4,453kph Atmosphere (Cruise: 3,314kph/3,340kph)
 7 Power (Fusion: 117,234MW, 0.25yr, Arm: 100 [794])
 0 Battery
 10814 Fuel (Scoop: 8, Purif: 72, 76MW)
 0/1380/40/0/0 Accommodations (1440 x Sanitary Fittings)
 18720 Person/Days Life Support (Type: Extended, Normal Food [Stored],
                                 Arm: 60 [296])
 3 G-Comp (Arm: 60 [296])
 0 ESA
 12 Sandcasters (AV: 294, Cans: 22, Arm: 80 [497])
 20 Damper Turrets (250MW, Range: 500,000km, Arm: 80 [497])
 0 Damper Screen
 432 Meson Screen (298.5984MW, Arm: 80 [497])
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 30 [136] Armour, 48 Structure

Features
 350 x Decontamination Airlock
 4 x Docking Umbilical
 5 x Electronic Shop (6 Td ea.)
 5 x Machine Shop (10 Td ea.)
 3 x Laboratory (8 Td ea.)
 5 x Sickbay (8 Td ea.)
 1 x Ship's locker (17.5 Td ea.)
 20 x Prisoner Capacity (0/15/5)
 1 x Armory (1.93 Td ea.)
 8 x Gym (2.5 Td ea.)
 1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 20)
 12 x Full Galley (Cap: 120)
 54 x Drop Capsule Launcher (1 ready capsule ea.)

Small Craft
 8 x Spacious Hangers (20 Td, 1 hatch)

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications: 2 x TB Radio (1,000AU). 2 x Laser (1,000AU).
 Sensors: 4 x PEMS (14 [50mkm]). 3 x AEMS (12 [1.6mkm]).
          16 x LIDAR (15.5 [5mkm]).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM: 4 x Radio Jammer (1,000AU). 2 x Area. Jammer (12).
      2 x Decp. Jammer (13). 2 x Pas. Jammer (16).
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 8 x Helm
 1 x Electronics
 886 x Engineering
 112 x Maintenance
 54 x Gunnery
 23 x Screens
 8 x Flight
 54 x Troops
 191 x Command
 47 x Stewards
 11 x Medical

The Yorktowns were one of the final classes of capital ships built by the
Terran Confederation. They clearly show the design trends that were to
dominate naval architecture during the Rule of Man. Armour was becoming more
uniformly distributed, the previous high levels of automation had been
abandoned, the missile armarment was becoming heavier, and the powerful
spinal particle accelerator had been replaced by a low powered meson gun.

The first Yorktowns were built during the 9th Interstellar War, and they
formed the backbone of the Terran Confederation Navy during the following
Nth Interstellar War, with a total of over 300 being built before the end of
the War. Production continued after the defeat of the Vilani and they proved
highly effective against the Vargr until the Vargr successfully reverse
engineered Meson Gun technology.

The most famous example of the class was the Ark Royal. Only the fourth
Yorktown to be completed (commissioned in 2273 AD, shortly before the
outbreak of the 9th Interstellar War). The Ark Royal's name was forever
engraved into the history books when on the 14th September 2299 AD, Admiral
Sirikit Chalarak accepted the surrender of the Sirkakirun Adkhar Makrus on
her deck, finally bringing to an end the 1700 year old Ziru Sirka. With the
end of the wars, the Ark Royal continued in commission until she was finally
retired in 2334 AD and placed on permanent display at the Terran Fleet
Museam on Dingir. In 2392 AD she was moved to the new capital of the Rule of
Man at Hub/Ershur where she remained until the Solomani Rim War. In 1000
Imperial (5518 AD) she was reactivated and moved back to the Solomani Rim.
It was intended that the final surrender of the Solomani Confederation
should be signed on her decks (which would have been a powerful political
symbol). However, with the invasion of Terra in 1002 Imperial, the war ended
in a stalemate and the surrender never came. In 1004 Imperial, the Imperial
High Command ordered her destruction and in 1005 Imperial she was destroyed
by the combined firepower of the Imperial Rim Fleet. It is interesting to
note that officer orginially assigned to her destruction (Admiral Veras
Lepart) choose to resign her commission rather than carry out what she
described as "an act of gross vandalism in the guise of petty revenge".



Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:49:19 -0300
From: Les_Howie@keane.com
Subject: Post TNE ship design rules

I've been a bit out of touch for a while.  Could anyone give me a tumbnail
sketch of the ship design rules which have emerged since the downfall of
TNE/FF&S.

 Are any of them of comparable flexibility to FF&S?

Anyone have any idea of future plans in this area?

Thanks

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:01:17 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There might be some Imperial rules requiring the freight prices to be
a certain level to encourage trade, although the logic of this would
be freight sitting around the starport, waiting for someone going in
the right direction with spare space and moving freight any distance
will take forever. Unless there is either a supply of soon to be
bankrupt small freighters or the freight owner decides to pay extra
to "charter" a ship.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That seems to tell me that anyone with business concerns more than
a jump or two distant must be involved with a megacorp. Their monopoly
on long-distance trade is mentioned in canon, at least for the better
developed areas of the Imperium. 

The spare freight lying around the starport is stuff that will go on the next 
available megacorp freighter, probably in a week or less - a free trader crew 
that can offer a possible save of a few days travel time can contract to carry 
it, but (due to the less reliable nature of the transportation) won't be able to
charge a premium for saving the cargo owner some time. The megacorps
lose more cargo to clerical errors than they do to tramp freighters, so 
they generally don't worry about the independent operators - besides,
some of these tramp freighter captains are good at starting new markets
for the megacorp to buy or bully their way into. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:36:10 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Gene Bank

Bruce Johnson writes:
,snipped>
"> 2) How big would a Gene Bank be to hold 50K DNA Strands?
Why strands? It's far simpler to freeze lots of ova and sperm. 
For 50k individuals, with lots of samples so you can continue 
the cross-breeding program, I'd say you could get by with a 
few dTons of space, plus whatever you need for refrigeration 
equipment."

	It only takes one cell to store a complete genome (set 
	of genes), and 50,000 cells could be easily carried in 
	your pocket.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:38:35 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)

>This collection of stories would make a great web site somewhere. (I
>particularly like the one where the players decided to drop a cargo-hold
>full of water onto the warehouse... though I don't recognize the adventure.)

The (only) clue is the two stolen type "T" Meson guns.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:56:33 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

>In a message dated 99-05-07 17:09:15 EDT, you write:
>
><< Well, considering there were no oceans of Kerosene or Gasoline around... >>
>
>What about bonding hydorgen with something that makes it heaver than air?
>-Stephen

I think you fail to gather the party's lack of foresight.  This "plan" was
literally thought up a couple of hours before execution.

A weeks investigation time would have revealed the actual location of the
weapons, as well as providing other important intelligence.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:09:13 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

Dave Nelson writes:
<snipped>
"Perhaps starships are not a depeciating asset, as automobiles 
are, but rather retain most of their value, as houses and other 
real property do (makes it easier to run a campaign this way--
who cares how old it is, if it works then full price)"

	IMTU starships will not continue to function forever, so
	(if nothing else) the value of a vessel will decrease as
	it's potential remaining working life decreases.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 07:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks

> If any of you have any similar anecdotes, of
> less-than-intelligent
> things done by players, post 'em here!
> 
There are some similar stories over at the Shadowrun
Archive at http://shadowrun.html.com/archive/CLUE
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:36:00 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

In a message dated 5/10/99 3:44:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< Patton's truism (not really unique to him) applies at all levels.  A unit
 commander should order his immediate subordinates and be aware of the
 actions of their immediate subordinates.  Thus a Division CO orders his
 brigades and knows what his battalions are doing; a platoon leader orders
 his squads and knows where his fire teams are.  (At least that's the
 theory) >>

yeah; that's it...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:41:13 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Stupid RPG Tricks

In my current Runequest game, a PC noticed that he was being 
followed (the players have been involved in intrigue associated 
with the succession in the duke), and went to the local inn. The 
suspicious-looking person followed and sat by himself. The PC 
went to the innkeeper, an aquaintance, and said something like:
"I think that I might have to kill somebody on the south side, if 
I don't return tell my friends." Then the PC left the inn and 
walked south to the poorer part of the city (it was late at night).

Coming upon a dark alley, the PC ducked inside and waited, but the
follower spotted the tactic and waited nearby. A minute later, 3 
peasants came walking down the street from the south. The PC jumped
from the shadows, drew his bastardsword, and yelled "Halt!" The 
terrified peasants took a step backwards, so the PC attacked 
(ineffectually) with his sword and the peasants fled. The PC pursued,
and quickly caught up to a smaller peasant who "limped and carried a
stick." The muscular PC dragged the poor old cripple into another 
alley and eventually robbed him, then cracked him on the head with 
the pommel of the sword.

Soon, the other peasants were running back with some militia. The 
PC ran for it, finally being trapped and captured (hard to run in 
all that armour). The old cripple died, and the PC was charged with
murder (yes, the local government really does enforce laws!). The 
peasants thought that it was him (though it was dark), the militia
chased him from the scene and captured him, and he was still carrying
the cripple's belt pouch. Things didn't look good, but the PC had a 
high Charisma, so I gave him a chance to talk his way out of it. His
story was pretty poor, but the clincher came when he called on the 
innkeeper as a character witness. The innkeeper dutifully reported 
the PC had planned to kill somebody on the south side.

The hanging took place the following morning, with the PC vainly
struggling all the way. He didn't die with much dignity. The
remainder of the party elected not to intervene. They now have a
somewhat greater respect for local authority, and plan their
illegal activities a bit more carefully.

Peez

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #597
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 10 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 598



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)
Re: G:T Far Trader stuff
re: ATTN: Loren Wisemen Cargo sizes?
Re: GT: Far Trader trade route question
Re: GT: Far Trader missing do worlds
Re: T4 to GURPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)
Re: GT: Far Trader trade route question
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: G:T Far Trader stuff
Re: 3I raising military forces
Re: Starship Depreciation
Re: Nightrim PBICQ Data Log 1.5 posted.
Re: I'm back from sea
Re: accidents
RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: I'm back from sea 
PEEPER-Class Picket (was Re: Norfolk Class)
Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)
Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: Ludwig's Mesonic Organ
Re: Population modelling
Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:49:25 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop Tank Numbers, HG 2nd Ed (I)

In a message dated 5/10/99 6:11:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU writes:

<< The spare freight lying around the starport is stuff that will go on the 
next 
 available megacorp freighter, probably in a week or less - a free trader 
crew 
 that can offer a possible save of a few days travel time can contract to 
carry 
 it, but (due to the less reliable nature of the transportation) won't be 
able to
 charge a premium for saving the cargo owner some time. The megacorps
 lose more cargo to clerical errors than they do to tramp freighters, so 
 they generally don't worry about the independent operators - besides,
 some of these tramp freighter captains are good at starting new markets
 for the megacorp to buy or bully their way into.  >>

Don't forget the famous Capt. Jamison LaSalle example. There are a lot of 
retired/ex megacorps owner/operators of free traders floating around. Just 
because he's annoyed at his old employer, doesn't mean they all are. I could 
see a lot of these characters getting the crumbs from their old bosses at 
reduced rates (enough to scrape a living...) in return for market 
development. It's sort of like the US railroads today. 

The big players are merging and streamlining. As they do this, they lose a 
lot of tertiary traffic due to abandoned trackage. A whole new crop of small 
short lines are springing up. Some "mom and pop" outfit leases an old second 
hand locomotive and rents a trailer-office. They fix up enough track to serve 
a couple of clients, and they make their living moving carloads from the 
major lines' interchange to the clients. Since they are near the client, they 
offer personal customized service that the major companies don't. The 
downside (which trucking exploits well) is the reliance on the major railroad 
companies schedules (often quite inflexible) for coast to coast movement. 
This isn't a problem in Traveller since their aren't two competing modes of 
freight movement...

ob Trav: Tukera uses her multikiloton freighters to move cargos along the 
major routes, and the free traders move the batches of cargo from these 
ships-routes to the tertiary markets. This screws regionals like Oberlindes 
though...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:04:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)

- --- Mark Preston <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> How about the thief who pulled off a good burglary
> at the local manor but
> just couldn't resist  downing the brandy while he
> was there. On the way out,
> he couldn't have climbed a step-ladder, never mind
> the 12 foot wall around
> the grounds. The dogs got him.
> 
I recall reading in Reader's Digest about a similar 
thing that happened in Arizona where a burglar, after 
going through the house, busted into the liquor cabinet
and guzzled down a bunch of vodka. When the houseowners
returned, they found said burglar still out like a 
light.
===

_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:06:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader stuff

On 05/10/99 05:48:08 Terry wrote:
> Ian wrote:
>> The final issue is astrography - for example, Collace to Asteline 
>> is 8 parsecs in a straight line, but astrography enforces 10. 
>> This cuts what would be an 8 relationship to a 7.5.
>
>Hmm. That's a good point. If I have to refigure distance based on 
>actual travel distance, that will modify this whole project. That 
>is a good question for those that figured this process out in the 
>first place. Well guys?

	Yes, distance has to be based on actual travel distance along the 
shortest J-2 route (J-4 along x-boat routes).  Worse than that, if there 
isn't enough trade to qualify for its own route, it will flow along existing 
routes, so if you're interested in total trade and not just mapping routes 
you'll have to have a separate step for this.
	I considered automating this task when writing these rules, but it 
seemed like a big job.  So far it has been easier to do it by hand.  If you 
are willing to automate this so that all anyone has to do is dump in sector 
data you will have done an enormous service to the Trav community.  Who 
_wouldn't_ want a trade map of the Imperium?


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:06:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: re: ATTN: Loren Wisemen Cargo sizes?

On 05/08/99 09:44:01 Dom Mooney wrote:
>
>Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com> wrote:
>>A friend of mine has just started to transfer his Space game to
>>Traveller, and in the basic rules on page 122 of the GURPS: TRAVELLER
>>book, we could not figure how a merchant ship would survive on such
>>little cargo tonnage. Most of the time a 200 ton merchant would not be
>>able to fill his cargo, and god help you if you have the 400 ton
>>subsidized mechant. Are we doing something wrong?
>
>One of the GURPS: Far Trader authors could answer this better, but....

	As one of the GT:FT authors, I'll take a crack at it.

>The Traveller cargo/freight rules were based around tramp traders who are
>involved in speculative trade, not freight 'box shifting'. As a result some
>of the smaller ships (eg the free trader at 200 dt) can only really make
>money through speculative cargos.
<snip>
>I wholeheartedly recommend GURPS: Far Trader for a much better, and in
>depth treatment of the merchant rules for traveller. 

	In GT:FT, free traders can make money by moving freight (box shifting), by pick up the 
pieces left by the shipping lines and going where the price for freight hauling is temporarily 
high, and avoiding those places it is temporarily low.  The system is most appropriate for 
people that want to make merchant operations a central part of their campaign, but a basic 
system is included for those who just want it as a back-drop.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:07:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader trade route question

On 05/09/99 07:04:56 Terry Mixon wrote:
>
>I have finished entering the data for the spinward marches into an 
>access database and am working up the approprate queries to have it 
>tell me the trade routes from any one world to all the rest before 
>I make a map of the trade routes. A question has came up for me.
>
>On page 14, it talks about different allegences will cause a -.5 
>to the bilateral trade number. What about client states to thier 
>overlords? Is there a drop in trade between an Imperial client 
>state and an Imperial world? Between Imperial client states?
>

	Depends on the client state.  Since client states may have a good deal of discretion over 
their tariff rates and general opennes to outside contact, the GM will have to decide the size of 
the negative modifier, if any.  The figures included in GT:FT should give you a guide for the 
appropriate magnitude.  Also check the side-bar in Ch.7 on modifying BTNs and WTNs for some 
insight.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:07:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader missing do worlds

On 05/09/99 10:27:54 you wrote:
>
>As I was putting the last entries into the Database I am working up 
>for the spinward marches, I noticed that Far Trader left off Trin and 
>Hazel, the last two worlds. Here is what I think from the write 
>up for them. Any input will be appreceated.
>
>Hex   World  PR  TL  Port  WTN  Trade cl.  Alg   Plan   Gas
>3235  Trin   10  12  V     6.5  Hi In Cp   IM    0      ?
>3236  Hazel   7   5  III   3.5  Ag         IM    ?      ?
>
>Hazel is also an Amber Zone.
>

	Consulting the Ch.7 draft material, you are quite correct.  Trin has a gas giant, and Hazel 
has a planetoid belt.

- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:17:18 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 to GURPS (was Re:  MT vs T4 Character Generation)

At 03:51 PM 5/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On 05/05/99 at 08:23 PM,  Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> said:
>
>>What I finally settled on, was making a T4 skill of 1 represent a GT
>>skill at IQ/DX-1.  skill-2 became IQ/DX, skill-3 became IQ/DX+1, and
>>so on.  I feel that this system gives a better feel for what the
>>skill level means, and also gives much lower point values for
>>characters, since now a certain skill level will cost the same for
>>_all_ characters, regardless of attribute.
>
>That looks like a very reasonable procedure.  This effectively makes
>all the skills "average skills" in GURPS terms...right?  And that
>makes sense in a conversion, seeing as Traveller scales all the
>skills the same.

Not quite.  You see, I've made kept the normal GURPS difficulty for skills,
and simply gave different number of points for different difficulties.  For
example, if a T4 character has Dex 7, Shotgun-1, then in GURPS, they get DX
10, Guns(shotgun) 9.  Guns is Physical/Easy so they get .5 points in it.
If they also had Bow Combat-1, then under GURPS they'd get Bow 9.  However,
Bow is a Physical/Hard skill, so they just got 2 points in it.  

This does mean that having a lot of T4 skills that turn out to be hard
GURPS skills makes for a more expensive character, but then again, that
makes sense...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:40:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Far Trader trade route question

- --- jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> >On page 14, it talks about different allegences will cause a -.5 
> >to the bilateral trade number. What about client states to thier 
> >overlords? Is there a drop in trade between an Imperial client 
> >state and an Imperial world? Between Imperial client states?
> >
> 
> 	Depends on the client state.  Since client states may have a 
> good
> deal of discretion over 
> their tariff rates and general opennes to outside contact, the GM
> will have to decide the size of 
> the negative modifier, if any.  The figures included in GT:FT should
> give you a guide for the 
> appropriate magnitude.  Also check the side-bar in Ch.7 on modifying
> BTNs and WTNs for some 
> insight.

I will certainly look it over tonight but the basic question was on 
the default intent of the basic rule. Barring other word, I will 
assume the default modifier for client states is -.5. If the GM wants 
to modify that for specific clients, then that is the excpetion to 
the rule. If I am mis-interpriting this, please let me know.

Thanks for the clarification.

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:42:35 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 06:31 PM 5/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >Hey Doug, what's our head count?
>
> <looks confused> ummm... one per body, I should hope.
>
> Ohh!  About ten or so.

Man we better strong arm some more.

OT: Hey which company do you work for? Don't want to be cussing at
someone I know when I drive past the airport.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:51:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Far Trader stuff

- --- jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> >> The final issue is astrography - for example, Collace to Asteline 
> >> is 8 parsecs in a straight line, but astrography enforces 10. 
> >> This cuts what would be an 8 relationship to a 7.5.
> >
> >Hmm. That's a good point. If I have to refigure distance based on 
> >actual travel distance, that will modify this whole project. That 
> >is a good question for those that figured this process out in the 
> >first place. Well guys?
> 
> 	Yes, distance has to be based on actual travel distance 
> along the shortest J-2 route (J-4 along x-boat routes).  Worse 
> than that, if there isn't enough trade to qualify for its own 
> route, it will flow along existing routes, so if you're 
> interested in total trade and not just mapping routes you'll 
> have to have a separate step for this.

I was afraid of that but so be it. 

> 	I considered automating this task when writing these rules, 
> but it seemed like a big job.  So far it has been easier to do it 
> by hand.  If you are willing to automate this so that all anyone 
> has to do is dump in sector data you will have done an enormous
> service to the Trav community. Who _wouldn't_ want a trade map 
> of the Imperium?

I will be giving it a swing. I will keep the list informed of the 
progress.

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:03:30 -0500
From: "Rick Stump" <hyperc@mailcity.com>
Subject: Re: 3I raising military forces

[snip]
>Units are allowed to use
>alternates to the usual titles.  Infantry Regiments can be called 'Rifles',
>'Guards', 'Grenadiers', or any other term indicating individual ground
>troops.  Tank Regiments use terms like 'Horse', 'Cavalry', or 'Lancers' to
>indicate their relation with animal-borne troops.

 Please don't forget my personal favorite designator; 'Shock' (a la, 6th Shock Regiment (tank)) - usually a designator given to a unit to honor it for past glory, especially in assualts; it may also designate an elite unit, i.e., a 'first down' Drop Infantry unit


Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:30:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation

>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: Starship Depreciation
...
>This makes sense, the oldest working oyster boat in Dunedin just turned 100
>yesterday, and anyone remember how old the Mary Rose was when she went down?

 If it's the 16th C. warship you're referring to wasn't she newly purpose-built?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:40:48 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Nightrim PBICQ Data Log 1.5 posted.

Blood God, PBICQ means : Play By ICQ.  Play in real-time (I'm assuming)
using the ICQ chat function.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:42:37 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> > >The biggest thing has been the Drop-Tank Thread That Would Not Die, and
> > >reviews/commentary of Far Trader.
> >
> >   Well, they are supposed to be an endurance-enhancing technology :)
> 
> Too many people want to use them as an endurance-replacing technology.
> 
>

Well I remember reading about the drop tank discussion as much as 2
years ago.  I'm frankly surprised its still going.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:45:06 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: accidents

As a matter of fact that _is_ how Dulinor got whacked in _Survival
Margin_

Les_Howie@keane.com wrote:
> 
> Glenn Goffin Wrote
> Subject: accidents will happen
> 
> >This sounds more like a seed for Call of Cthulhu or Shadowrun, I guess.
> 
> Virus infected homicidal hay-shredders?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:52:07 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

Many years ago, the Merchants & Merchandise supplement by
Paranoia Press had an article on new weapons for Traveller.
One of them was the "LPL Stungun" (LPL = low-power laser)
which used a low-power laser to ionize a path through the
air which was then used by an electrical discharge to 
travel to, and stun, the intended target.

A rather innovative use of this was to stun targets around a
corner using mirrors.

Well, guess what?

According to the U.K.'s Times, Eric Herr of San Diego, California
has patented what could be a workable design and is looking at
having a prototype within a year.

For the full story, go to the following site:

http://www.artigen.com/newswire/scitech.html

and select the May 9th link entitled:

"Ray Gun Freezed Victims Without Causing Injury".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:54:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: I'm back from sea 
...
>Too many people want to use them as an endurance-replacing technology.

  And those people are ee-vul! They should be used for tests that lasers
do indeed have anti-armour capabilities per Striker (heck, it'll quieten 
them down regardless)!

  Just say No to drop-tanks!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:55:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: PEEPER-Class Picket (was Re: Norfolk Class)

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Norfolk Class
...
>1000 dtons is a bad size for a military ship IMO. Too big for an expendable
>picket, too small to put real (bay/spinal) weapons on.

  Who you calling expendable?

PEEPER-Class Picket:

        FQ-1631331-000000-04000-0       MCr 73.992      130 tons
        Cargo=0.6. LHyd=81.9. EP=3.9. Agility=0. Low=0. Crew=2. TL=C.

  A dual-purpose picket ship and courier, with L-Hyd capacity for 2x J-3 in
the basic configuration. The flying saucer hull includes fuel scoops and
hoses, but no purification plant. MCr 92.49 singly.

  This one could carry 130 tons of drop tank; the execution of a first
jump-2 with a 65 Dt tank would add 2 parsecs to intrusion range and
allow the vessel to both start the rest of the journey with full tanks
and have a J2 L-Hyd cache if it came back that way. Brackets are standard,
and the tanks are KCr 1 per Dt.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:58:49 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Stupid RPG Tricks (AD&D)  (Was: Re: Stupid Traveller Tricks)

Not so much a stupid RPG trick as a favorite story was the great
'treasure' the PC's in one of my games found. It was a D&D dungeon run,
they're working their way down through a series of conneted caves, and
they've given up on subtleties like picking the locks (the thief blew
his rolls continuously, and it took them two days to get through three
rooms...) so they grabbed a sturdy bench and strated breaking the doors.

A luckier bench I have ever seen in my life...I wish _my_ characters
could roll saving throws like that. By the time it withstood the assault
of the troll on the _other_ side of the door it was wedging closed, the
PC's were utterly certain I had gifted them with a +2 bench of
ramming...;-)

(well, in their defense, I did used to leave stuff like +1 sticks of
peskying around...it will tickle a party members back from 10
paces...utterly useless for anything else, but as it was a young
apprentice mage's practical joke, it really had no other need for
rationalization.)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:16:51 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

Along the same lines, several years ago I saw a TV news story stating
that airport security were worried about a new pistol which was made
entirely of non-metals (body pistol anyone?). I haven't heard anything
about this though for several years, so I wonder if it was just bad 
reporting.
- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:48:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ludwig's Mesonic Organ

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-05-09 18:59:23 EDT, you write:
>
> << And now, using the nuclear survival skills recalled by the "Fun With
>  Nukes" thread, I am...
>  
>  ducking and covering! >>
>
> The best nuclear surivival skill that I can think of is first strike.

There's a Dean Ing book ("Pulling Through"?) from the early 80s that
has the characters caught in a first strike on the US. The second half
of the book is a collection of articles he wrote for a survival
magazine on how to survive being caught near a target. The techniques
described there are pretty much what he had the characters doing. 

Anyway, your mention of "nuclear survival skills" and "first strike"
reminded me of the book. BTW, the same articles, plus a few extras were
re-released some years later as "The Chernobyl Syndrome". Appropriate,
as they are *exactly* the sort of thing you'd want to know if caught
near that sort of disaster.

Ob-Trav: Have the party on a trip quite a ways from the starport on a
balkanized world when either a nuclear war breaks out, or a low tech
nuclear reactor has a major accident. Either way, they don't have
*time* to avoid the fallout. They've got to find a way to survive until
the radiation levels drop enough to let them survive the attempt to
leave the area. 

The war version adds the possibility of encountering troops during
their escape. Wounds get quite a bit worse when the bulets drag
contaminated dust into the wound! Or cause your improvised filters to
be useless.

It's up to the ref to decide whether or not the party needs to
encounter a "survivalist" who knows what to do. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:04:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Population modelling

In mail you write:

> Matthew Bond wrote:
>
>> Hmmm....you might want more females than males if you want to have
>> polygamy <g>
>> (or vice versa for polyandry).

Polygamy is "more than one spouse". Polyandry is multiple husbands.
Polygyny is multiple wives.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:27:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

Rob Brady wrote:
> 
> Along the same lines, several years ago I saw a TV news story stating
> that airport security were worried about a new pistol which was made
> entirely of non-metals (body pistol anyone?). I haven't heard anything
> about this though for several years, so I wonder if it was just bad
> reporting.

Oooh, haven't heard about the evil plastic glock in a while...

Bad reporting, it was. The slide and parts of the reciever of the model
in question were (iirc) made of some sort of plastic, however there was
far more than enough metal in the thing to set off a metal detector.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:36:51 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 12:39 PM 5/7/99, you wrote:
>At 01:25 PM 5/7/99 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>4) What sane person would let unknown persons remote load a progam and
>>remote ececute it on their ships main computer?
>
>Java programmers!!!
>
>Sorry, I agree with everything you said in your post, but couldn't pass up
>a straight line like that...


Who could?

Java's not so bed IF you only alow it a partial comand set.  Giving external
programs or applets disk or IO access is insane.  At the most they should
only be allow for screen control (animation and fill in the data) formating.
Beyond that you're begging for hackers!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:37:02 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 01:22 PM 5/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>>Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
>...
>>> the Virus era units have no physical irregulariites from the non-infected 
>>comp systems that they parasatize?
>>
>>No.  It's an electronic life form that lives in the computer, like a fish 
>>lives in water.  "Commando chips" that behave exactly like the Cymbeline 
>>predator could be created to deal w/ "closed" systems, though.  That or 
>>destruction, though Virus always desires to reproduce (and all the unstable 
>>strains quickly go the way of the dodo).
>
>  So IYTU a Virus-infected computer is completely identical (on the gross
>physical level) to the unit pre-Virus? No mods to architecture occur?
>
>...
>>>   So Virus doesn't have a physical component IYTU? Doesn't that render it
>>> vulnerable to techniques that TNE specifies somehow don't work?
>>
>>Huh?  What techniques?  There is a physical componet, but it's only a "host." 
>> Of course, it can't be disembodied, but can move from one host to another 
>>(or better yet reproduce and occupy both).
>
>  If Virus is purely dynamic and doesn't physically alter its host then how
>can it survive the equivalent of a shut-down and reboot from CD or other
>non-dynamic media? How can they physically alter their victims to leave "eggs"?
>Why would you even need SDG transponders as "a ready made Virus box"?
>
>  FWIW, I suspect that one of us is mis-remembering Virus' need for physical
>modifications to be made in non-SDG systems.
>

Part of the problem is the paradem cross.

The computers on Traveller ships are modeled after mainfrains, large general
purpose computers.  That in itself throws out hardward based neural nets as
this are not 'reprogramabe' and thus not reuseable UNLESS in the future they
come up with a neural net architecture that can be preloaded, saved of hard
disk, and reset to its' original startup condition but if the neural net are
like this then your parradeum shifts to be identical to software inplemented
neural nets in that they can be purged.

If you are using the discription of the chips ability to alter other chips
for rerpoduction as it is discribed in the adventure they were introduced in
then it would be imposible for them to make that alteration in an operating
main frame as the materials they would need are not present and/or not in
the proper form.  The chips in the adventure are no more 'magical' tech.
wise that today's ICs.  They use the same methods of curcuit burn in as
today chip founderies.  These methods are discribed in detail in the
adventure.  These proceesses could not occure in the sealed enviroment of a
running computer.  The adventure even states that the chips life forms could
not us the crashed ships superior quality curcuits and silicon UNTILL the
chips casing were ruptured by the crash and the enviromental wear on the casing.

So, the phisical 'burn in' atributed to the virus is not posible in a
stardard traveller computer in its' normal inviroment.  This is cannon
directly from the adventure that the Cyllene chips were introduced.

Next, ROBOTS limits the amount of nueral processors in an assebly by tech.
level.  These particular 'neural processors' may not be pressent in anything
other than robot brains though.  It is not stated but even if the
percentages aplied to all computer (unlikely see above discussion of
presessor design paradiums) then it would be posible of pull the neural
processors and still have enough processing power to run a ship if a bit
clumsilly.  The top end is less that 50% IIRC so with the current design
requirement for the computers you would still be able to run one copy of
your most powerful program.  You can normally run two.

None of this is to say that the virus could not have been as nasty as
discribed.  It could have been much worse!  It is the way it did the damage
that it wrong.  The patern of infection it's nature is off.  Not the level
of desaster that it would have caused.  The virus should have been much
smarter to have caused the damage it did.  The suicide strain would have
been a terible failure and nearly useless.  The virus first strain should
have been closer to the third generation in smarts.  At a minimum it should
have acted like the puppertier or the alliance builder.  It should have hit
the 3I like pnumonic plague.  No symptoms at all one day any half the
population sick of dieing the next.  Anything less would have giving SYSOPs
the time the purge and load clean.  Virus' best bet would be to stay hidden
untill it could takeover the majority of self mobile (robots) systems in an
area.  These would be much harder fix than a multifuction mainframe as they
might very well have non resetable synaptic processors giving a plave to the
virus to burn itself in but even then the virus would need to be in the
robot when it was first powered up or those chips would have already taken a
set pattern, the aquired knowledge and/or personallity of the robot.  A
smart virus could work arround this by quietly have 'maintainence' performed
on all the self mobile units and during this maintained replacing the
standard chip set with the future equivalent to FPGAs with it's 'core
systems' burned in.  This could easily be pasted off as a 'software
upgrade.'  Why shouldn't the virus be capable of a little 'social
engineering' and the spys call it...



Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #598
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 10 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 599



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans
Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 
Virusbeard (Unix & C) declaration!
RE: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:37:14 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 10:10 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 09:21 PM 5/7/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>Of course you did.  The virus as discribed is bunk!.
>>
>
><snip>
>
>>
>>Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
>>to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
>>the operater.  TL will not change this.
>
><snip more along the same lines>
>
>TL will change it.  Just like I don't expect to be able to understand how
>jump drives, contragravity, and reactionless thrusters work, I don't expect
>to understand how GTL12  (or for that matter GTL9) computers work.  They
>might be neural net, they might be biological, or they might be something
>entirely different.  
>

NO IT WILL NOT.  Data can not be executed.  It is meaning less to the
LIMITED instraction set in the processor.  Just like a person can not act on
all the data he recieves as all of it is not actionable.  A computer mush be
able to tell what in instruction and what is data.

>There probably will be a difference between data and code, but even that's
>not certain.  I am sure that things like assembly level instructions,

It's very curtain.  The process has a fixed instruction set.  Even if it can
be told to add new instructions latter it will have a fixed and non
deleteable core instruction set that is the building blocks for all other
instruction to be added later.  If this were not so them the device you are
discibing is NOT a computer.  It come down to definitions.

>optimizing compilers, and clock cycles will no longer exist.  I don't know

NOT POSIBLE.  At some level the boot strap system has to be hard coded.

>what will, but it's going to be _totally_ different.  At best, using a
>computer will be similar, but even that's not certain.  The point is, more

Then it is NOT a C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R.  It does NOT 'run programs'.  You have
throw out all your reference points.  If you want to say it is a magic box
that makes your wishes come true IYTU thats fine but if your solution to
solve bad writting is to say that at TL15 tech is SO magical that we can not
understand it you make technical character an imposibility as they can not
act based on logical progression and the scientific method.

>than two GTLs into the future, we can't be certain about _any_ assumptions.

Actually we can as current TL program can be run of future computers and
vice versa.  The TL change required the use of extra resoursed to run
properly but it is doable.  Check the Cyberpunk book under the 'strange
protocols' side bar.  Though that is not canon.

One canon fact will blow you 'computers are different' concept.  Programs in
traveller are not rated by the TL they were writen under.  They can run on
anly TL computer.

> If things happen to work the same, fine, great, we can use out
>perceptions.  However, if it's not the same, all we can go by is the
>description of the _effect_ that is in the rulebook.  So if TNE says that
>virus can infect computers in certain ways, then it can.  Period.  
>

I see now.  You are one of those gamer that believe that if it says so in
'the book' it must be so.  Well if that is the case and you are not open to
logical discussion then why are you discussing it here?  The book are all
knowing and infallable but then virus and the original cannon adventure
directly contradict each other.  Virus says is can reburn the computers
inside their sealed chips cases but the adventure says there must be DIRECT
contact with bare silicon to effect such a burn in.  Which 'book' is right?

>Of course, in YTU, maybe GTL12 computers are just faster GTL7 computers,
>and in that case you are right.  However, nothing I've seen in the OTU
>leads me to believe this is true.  
>

How about the technical definition of 'computer'? It's call a computer so it
IS a computer.

>BTW, I have written plenty of assembly code, and I understand what you say.
> It's absolutely true for any computer that works the same way as a GTL7
>computer.  But that's it.
>

Computer design and bootstraping the code is what I do for by dayly bread.
I do it all from basic concept, to IC specification, to Gerber layout, to
boot straping, to prototype testing, to control code crunching.  My nitch is
as a one man design team for small to medium level custom integrated control
systems.

Those future computers come from the minds of men.  Even assuming such
advances as 'more than two state' processing systems (once much talked about
but it fallen by the way side of late) and subatomic level circuits you
still have to have instructions and data.

>As an example (this isn't true in Traveller, this is something out of RL)
>we already have theories about computers that violate all our assumptions.
>One assumption that CS has is that certain problems are NP-complete.  No

Is CS in this sentence computer science?

What does NP-complete mean?  Not posible to complete?  If so I'll argue
against that with the million monkey theorum.

>possible variation in coding technique that we've ever discovered, no
>advance in computer speed, no improvement of our existing machines can
>change this (yes I know.  this isn't proven.  However, it is a standard
>assumption in CS).  OTOH, the new nanotech breakthroughs have led many
>people to believe that using quantum computers, these problems can be
>solved in polynomial time.  This isn't just a different faster way of doing

polynomial time?  Can you define this for me?  Polynomial, in the context
that I an use to, is a particural type of mathamatical formula.  Are you
saying 'in a calulatable funtion of time' posibly based of Megflops?  If so
that agrees with the million monkey theorum.

>things.  It's something _totally different_.  And that's only GTL8, not
>even GTL12....
>

Yes and no.  It is just a scale change.  The basic PROCESSOR will still be
an intruction set sequential unit.  You might get to a massively parallel
level with near instant vertical and/or horisontal condition branching so
that in effect you have something done before you could have it done by
today's standard (what people call intuition or nonlinear thought) but that
is only if you look at it as a macro system.  At the base level there is no
paradium change.  After all if you push the concept to its' limits you get
the human brain. (Massively paralleled neural net with shared integrated
data systems and hard coded instruction set, 'DNA'. )

Changes to the macro effect does not nessecitate and micro paradiun change.
For example it is easy to run neural net software on a PC which has no
neural net processors on board.  You can solve control problems by modeling
an analog control system on a digital system and IMPROVE performace over the
original analog system by adding digital algorithems.  This is synergy not
tech. magic.  There is no magic in technology only the appearence of magic
untill you understand the underlying processes.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:37:27 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 02:25 AM 5/8/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-07 17:25:47 EDT, you write:
>
><< Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
> to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
> the operater.  TL will not change this. >>
>
>This maybe a little off but how does the human brain do it?  We have 
>"Programes" for pattern reconishing, ect and we have memories, how does the 
>OS tell it apart?


Biomophics and athrapamophisations are not my thing but I give this a shot.

If memory were directly executable instead of data then it would be posible
for a person to read a book written by a martial arts master and if his
hardware was as good as said master he would be able to perform as well as
that master without any practice.  That is what a computer can do with a
program.  Two computers will run the same program the same way with the same
results if working under the same conditions.  That is why memory is data
not program in humans but this analagy breaks down fast as human are neural
nets and most of our 'programimg' for physical actions comes from the
learning process of repetition and feedback from our own bodies.

Another problem with the analogy is that people are 'one ofs' not production
models.  With the exception of the most basic 'bootstrap program' of
biological function we develope our own programs 'on the fly' including a
large part of that 'macro OS' we call personallity.  Perhaps that explains
the number of 'bugs' that are in the human 'system'.  After all you should
never compose at the keyboard but life often requires it if us.


Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:37:45 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans

At 01:59 AM 5/8/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> He he!  I knew *this* was coming, Charles.  :-)
>>
>>> 1) How does the recieving system know how to unpack and reasemble the code?
>>
>> Who knows?  I'd say it depends on how the comps work to begin w/, which has 
>> not be detailed (nor will it).  How do GURPS TL9+ comps work?  The same as 
>> GTL7s?
>
>This *and the rest of your "counter arguments" is based on a
>misconception. Computers operate according to some fairly simple rules
>of logic and math. These are *not* going to change, no matter *how*
>sophisticated the computer gets. 
>
>More on this below. 
>
>>> 2)It it is in a standard format where is the anti virus software?
>>
>> Unknown.  Anti-virus software (which is said in Survival Margin to actually 
>> be strains Virus itself, by the time of the Collapse) is still coded and 
>> "made" by people outside of the system, whereas Virus itself is actually 
>> inside the system and runs circles around it (if not coopting it to it's own 
>> usage).  There is an electronic combat system in Vampire Fleets for them to 
>> duel.
>
>Actually, computer viruses only propogate due to poor system design and
>administration. We've known they were *possible* for decades. It's just
>that they only appeared in reality in systems such as MS-DOS computers
>that had been designed with no concept whatsoever of system security. 
>

Very true, a well system that does not require loading outside executables
is nearly impregnable to viruses.

>>> 3) Who tells the recieving unit that the assembled code is an executable?
>>
>> It's not an "executable."  Stop thinking in TL8 (GTL7) terms.  Say that 
>> computers don't operate like anything you're familiar with.  For one, they 
>> have organic cores, and I doubt you have experience w/ them.
>
>It doesn't matter. As noted above, they *have* to follow certain
>rules/laws, just as all mechanical devices have to be based on
>principles known to Archimedes 3000 years ago. Show him a modern
>mechanical device, and you might have to explain where the *power*
>comes from, but he'd understand the rest. He'd be surprised at the
>quality of the parts and at their size, but they'd follow rules he was
>completely familiar with. 
>

If you were to explain how they were made to him he migth have some usefull
incites to add as well.  A person who could make the kinds of logical leaps
he made in his time could probably do some amassing things with todays
precition tooling techniques.

>Likewise, we know now the rules computers of *any* type have to follow.
>We've known most since Babbage's time, and the rest since Turing and
>von Neuman. *NO* new rules have been discovered, nor are any likely to
>be. We've just gotten more sophisticated *combinations* of the rules.
>
>Ada Lovelace wouldn't understand how the logic of our cumputers is
>*implemented*. But she'd understand the *logics*. And thus the rules
>they follow. Ditto goes for the stuff in the 3I. A logic gate is a
>logic gate. Regardless of whether it's implemented as a mechanical
>device, a circuit with tubes, a transistor circuit, part of an IC, an
>optical circuit, or a quantum well device. Neural nets are simply more
>complex arrays of gates.
>

HE!  HE! and not all that much more complex 'transiter count' wise either.

>And sorry, but I'd like a reference for those "organic cores". 
>
>Anyway, by the rules of computing, you have "program" and you have
>"data". They *can* be stored in the same "memory" *or* they can be kept
>completely seperate. There exist *now* (and have since the 50s)
>computers where the program store and data store are completely
>seperate. On such a machine a virus is *impossible*. 
>
>Even on normal von Neuman architecture systems, where code and data use
>a common store, unless a program is set up to *allow* data to be
>treated as code, it's not possible to get data executed. 
>

I have never seen a machine that would try to execute data without being
told to either explitely in its' code or because a programer left off a
'return from subroutine' or otehr code block terminater.  When I've done
that by mistake I get to see that my processor watch dog reset curcuit works
very well indeed!  I have not designed a new system with one sence they came
out in a single 8 pin dip!  That would shut down almost any virus in a few ms.

>>> 4) What sane person would let unknown persons remote load a progam and
>>> remote ececute it on their ships main computer?
>>
>> Noone did it voluntarily or even finding out till many months later.  
>> Transponder (which consists of two lobotimized cymbeline predators) chatter 
>> (w/ direct access to commo and computers) was the primary vector of 
>> transmission.  Virus is not a "program."  It's a life form that lives in 
>> electronics.  The next vector was computer controlled tight beam commo 
>> (accuracies measured in attoradians, doppler shift correction, encoding and 
>> decoding, etc).
>
>And given the examples of recent years, you *really* think that OSes
>and applications in the future are *not* going to have learned from
>things like the Melissa virus? That they are going to leave *obvious*
>holes in things for someone to exploit?
>
>>> 5) Are there no computer security people in the traveller universe?
>>
>> Sure, but they're at an inherent disadvantage operating outside of their own 
>> evironment against a life form in it's own.  Especially when they don't know 
>> it's there and find they have no computer references to viruses or combating 
>> them (the first thing Virus would do is delete or corrupt such information). 
>
>You don't get it. The life form may "live" in computers, but that gives
>it no more advantage in dealing with them than the fact that we live in
>biological organisms gives us in dealing with such. 
>
>It's like saying that because you are organic, you can "take over"
>an organism that was *built* by expert biological engineers and
>*designed* to do only certain things.   
>
>> This is in the "dormant" phase.
>>
>>> 6) No hackers either?
>>
>> See above.  :-)
>
>>> 7) No sysops that can set the operations perameter that says "Disable 
>> remote
>>> ececution"?
>>
>> Nope.  Get out of your GTL7 rut.  ;-)
>
>Sorry, but again, this is a matter of the "rules of computing". Tech
>level merely defines how the rules are *implemented*, not what they
>are. The rules of solitaire are the same regardless of whether you are
>playing with a deck of cards or a computer. 
>
>Likewise, the existence of such a parameter is independent of TL. It
>*is* possible to design a computer without the ability to set such a
>restriction. Nobody is going to because it conveys *no* advantage, and
>has *major* disadvantages. 
>

And any system the military is likely of buy in an electronics heavy
enviroment is likely to be speced so that it can be locked down to
originally loaded software to keep 'joe badguy' from making your reacter go
boom!

>>> 8) Or set the "Run only from ROM disks" parameter?
>
>> TL12+ involves self programming, according to MT Ref's Comp.
>> Virus is TL16-17.  You can make a case that TL11- ships should be safe from 
>> Virus.  It's TL10-, as stated in TNE.  I'd be fine w/ that, as the TL-15 IN 
>> is still going to be completely infected.
>
>Self-programming doesn't mean what you think it does. It means that
>computers will be able to write programs. That means they can create a
>"dataset" that can be used as a program. But that doesn't mean that
>they are going to go around executing *outside* datasets. 
>
>To use the "ROM disk" analogy, the computer can write the new program
>to a chunk of memory, and then set that memory to read only. While the
>*details* will be different, it's essentially the same principle as
>burning a new ROM, then sticking the ROM into a socket in the
>"executables" bank. 
>
>And believe me, there *will* be safeguards on the ability to self
>program. Mostly to make sure that there's no outside interference. 
>
>>> 9) The only way the the virus could reconfigure the computers circuitry is
>>> if the circuitry was designed to be reconfigured during operation, like a
>>
>> Which it is.
>
>Not necessarily. Circuitry will tend to be hardwired. *Software* can be
>reconfigured. This is why we use general purpose computers, with
>application programs, rather than reconfigure the hardware for each new
>application. 
>

That is very true and a far cheaper solution but in the interests of max
performance it might be that some high speed
preprogramable/resetable/readable neural networks might be included.  This
would ONLY be true if speed was reaching curcuit design limits before
meeting responce time requirement.  It's a stop gap measure to be sure but a
logical one.  This would apply only to general perpose unit.  

Dedecated system could very well be designed better/faster/cheeper from
neural net or reprogamable hardware in much the same way that an off the
shelf programable logic controler with a EEPROM might be the best solution
for a particular automation aplication.

>>> neural network.  A hard wired silicon system sealed inside it's chips would
>>> be invunerable to this form of attack as it's pathways could not be 
>> changed.
>>> The virus would have to gain direct physical contact with the silicon AND
>>> have the necessary chemicals present in the atmosphere to re etch the
>>> silicon.  This is stated explicitly in the adventure that introduced the
>>> inteligent chips.
>>
>> It's not being done ala the method of the Cymbeline predator.  Low tech 
>> level computers would be just as you say.  TNE says they're limited to
>> "eggs" which behave just like "normal" computer viruses.
>
>And, as such, won't work in computers. Among other things, writing a
>virus requires intimate knowledge of hardware and software that it will
>execute on. And, as I've pointed out, it's not *possible* if the OS has
>decent security.
>
>Nobody has a problem with the Virus being able to "brainwash" the
>transponders. It's being able to infect *other* computers over comm
>links and the like that trips the BS detectors.
>

That is what bugs me.  The virus and the 'lobodimised chip tansponders' were
designed for each other.  The designers of the virsus were experts on the
transponders but how in god's black space would the virus know what the
instruction set for a Zodonni model6 lot 12954 looked like or if it was
running a multiplexed bus or not, (add a few million other important
computer design details that a virus would have to know here)

>>> 10) FIBs would be immune as well as their composition is as alien to the
>>> chips as is our human biology.
>>
>> Only for the low tech computers.  The rest operates the same (synaptics, 
>> self programming, etc).
>
>Synaptics is the means of implementing the logic. That no more makes
>two computers compatible than using ICs does. A program for a Motorola
>CPU won't work on an Intel CPU. And FIB computers are going to be
>*more* different than non-FIB units. 
>
>Self-programming doesn't mean compatible either. Object-Oriented
>programs aren't transferable between different architectures except
>*maybe* as source code. Viruses have to be transferred as *object*
>code. As *executables*. Which means they are *very* restricted.
>

In effect they have to be perfect matches to the error handling system or
system watchdogs abort execution.

>You are confusing hardware, algorithms, and computational logic.
>
>> <snip>
>>> shielded hard wired backups to all critical systems.  These would also be
>>> immune to the virus as they would have to be EM shielded and EM is the
>>> method of infection for the virus.
>>
>> It is?  It's news to me.  lol.
>
>If it isn't spreading through physical contact, then it is spreading
>via *some* sort of communications channel. Since meson comms are out
>(most ships don't have them), and sound is out (space is a vacuum) the
>only thing *left* is EM (light, radio, etc).
>
>Anyway, this is the dividing point. Some folk think that more advanced
>technology will follow different rules. And others know that computers
>are based on rules that *don't* change. Ever.
>
>*Any* program can be reduced to a set of logical operations (one or
>more algorithms).
>*Any* logical operation can be implemented via combining a few basic
>operations. For example: [And, Or, Not]. [And, Not]. [Or, Not]. [Nand].
>[Nor]. 
>
>The underlying *hardware* doesn't matter. Likewise, the language
>doesn't matter. The language merely affects the way you express an
>algorithm, not the actual algorithm. 
>
>"If x then y" yeilds the following truth table:
>
>x\y T F
> T  T F
> F  T T
>
>Thus "X or not Y" is the same statement. Ditto for "not (x and y)". I'm
>not going to bother with the Nand and Nor versions. 
>
>But you can build stuff like adders, flip-flops, etc all the way up to
>complete computers out of nothing more than this. In the final
>analysis, any CPU is describable by a truth table of all the input
>lines and output lines. And as such, they can be "resolved" to a series
>of logical statements.
>

Excelent 'computers 101'!  Well said.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:37:58 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A 12-Step Program for Virus Fans 

At 09:52 PM 5/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Somehow I feel as if I'm stepping in between the Hatfields 
>and the McCoys, but what the hell. For the record, I am
>not now, nor have I ever been a TNE player, for no particular
>reason. I do, however, own a copy of "Signal GK".
>
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> Executable and non executable must be flaged in ANY system.  It comes down
>> to the diference between data and code.  One is operated on and the otehr is
>> the operater.  TL will not change this.
>
>Really? I wonder how Visual Basic works then... it takes a bunch of data
>(the program written by the user/programmer) and then, magically...
>runs it! Woah - data just became code! To get more technical, I think
>that somewhere buried inside Win32 is a call the specifically changes the 
>flags on memory pages from data to code. It can happen.
>


Not magically, it's call compiling and you would be hard press to recognise
your own code once it was compiled even if you could read the hex code for
the instruction set for the pentium.

>> Second, inorder for the virsus to become executable it would have to be
>> flaged as an execuable.  Any security system will moniter the executables
>> list for that very reason.  As long as the virus is data it is in supended
>> animation and can take no action.
>
>Well, no. The Internet worm of yore used a bug in the method used to obtain
>the password from the console to jam code into the login process. The
>worm shoved in a string that overwrote the allocated buffer - on the stack -
>which overwrote the return address for the function, causing the getString
>(or somesuch - I forget the exact details) method to return into the 
>code that the worm had just jammed in through the console. There are lots
>of examples of turning data into code. This isn't a lead-gold thing.
>


Code can be call data, yes but somebody has to tell the system to execute
it.  If incoming signals do not have 'run access' it is not possible.  If
the system has a 'run list' that can only be run from on board rom then even
haveing 'run access' will not allow the running of an uploaded program.

>> Even something like a
>> human beings mind has the differentiation between memory and instruction
code.
>
>Well, just to be pissy, if you know that much about the human brain, you
>should spend less time on the TML and more time at your job as a 
>university neurophysiology lecturer. I will make the far more accurate
>counterstatement that no one really has a decent idea of how the brain works.
>

That is pissy and very short sighted.  If there were no distictions between
memory and execuables in the human mind then if you read a book properly
written by Bruce Lee you could fight as well as he could without any
practice other than reading the book provided you were in as good physical
shape.  Note that computer can do this with there programs.  So far no one
has figure out how to download an executable to a human brain.  We learn by
self teaching through observation and practice.  We write our own
executable.  We are our own programmers.


>> Just out of curiousity, fow much assebly code have you written?  If you have
>> not written any then most of what I have just said will not make anty sence
>> to you.  The fact is processors MUST have their instruction fed to them in
>> the exactly correct format or they will error out into an error handling
>> system (if they do not crash or hang.)
>
>Writing assembly code is the least sophisticated way to do anything on 
>a computer. A lot of assembly coders think that they're one not just one step
>from the machine, but one step from The Man Himself. There are examples
>of self-programming systems, which, by definition, turn "data" into "code"
>(what does a data 1 look like compared to a code 1?) but the common
>wisdom with regard to self-modifying/self-programming systems is that they're
>too hard to deal with, so no one does anything with them. (And "they", whoever
>"they" are, are right. But I digress.)
>

They are right and you are are far as 1s and 0s BUT code hase to be in the
right format for the process.  The right sequence.  Try running the data in
a dictionary or this email as an executable and it will not do anything
usefull.  It noise not signal.

Even if the data is an executable program the computer will not try to run
it unless told to.  That is what I ment.  WHO or WHAT tall the target that
that data that it just got is code and that it should run it NOW! and that
it has top access rights.  You did know that programs on large computers can
have limited access to resources?  Like not being able to acess curtain
subsytems or only having acess to one terminal for all it's IO funvtions.
Main frame are a lot different in their security that PC. 

>Anyway, I have no opinion on the virus really - it's a plot device that isn't
>a lot worse than jump drive, which violates a lot more laws that are a hell
>of a lot less flexible (like, oooohhhh, general relativity). But I think
>you're 
>a little too vehement with the code-versus-data argument. The "Why are there
>no computer security analysts in the 3I" argument is a heck of a lot better.
>

True, my comment was who told the reciever that what it recieved was a
program rather than more general data and that it should run it now with
unlimited access.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:38:10 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Virusbeard (Unix & C) declaration!

Ok folks, This virus thread has given me some cause for though.  I've looked
back though some old cumper stuff and did a little digging pluss a little
head scratching.  I think there is a reasonable way to explain the virus and
canon and make it all work within reasonable bounds and with minimal handwave.

So load your Traveller canons and see what holes you can poke in this.



Point 1) The 3I is big, REAL BIG!

Point 2) The 3I would need to have curtain standards to regulate trade, like
transponders.

Point 3) Because of point 1, point 2, and because ships travel great
distances and may need repair some standarization in computers will be required.

Point 4) Because of the long night and various specific needs all computers
can't use identical parts and sub systems.

Point 5) Softwares writer want as big a market as posible for their products.

Point 6) Customers want access to as many products and choices as posible.

Conclussion 1) From all the points above, a universal language.  Let's call
it IC for Imperial C.  (One reason C is so big today is it's standardization
and cross compilability)

Conclusion 2) From all above, a univeral standard framework for IO to allow
divers to be writen for IO and progams to access this IO.  Let's call it
IDOS.  It is a set of basic IO routines writen in IC.  (Unix has been cross
compiled onto many different computers from PC to mainframes).  The user can
choose a front end like Itouch, Italk, or Iwindows so he does not have to
learn Idos or IC to just run the programs he needs and of course there are
language and console modules for all major races and most minor ones.  The
dolphin console is rated for 100 meters in depth.

Effect 1) All computer makers have to do is provide a compiler for IC to
compile to their processor and system and anybody can recompile any source
code to run on their system.  This lets small companies have a foot into a
BIG market.

Effect 2) All programers can write code that can run (after compiling) on
any machine with a IC compiler.  This let's 'Joe code cruncher' write for a
HUGE market.  All code is sold as copyrighted source code on ROM disks that
has to be compiled to run on the target system.

Effect 3) Consumers get diversity and compatability.

Effect 4) Components manufacturers need only write one IC driver for their
hard ware to sell their product to add to any computer system (with a
standard interface like the USB starting up now or like the centronics
standard for printers or the novel network for about everybody).  So Sence
Tech's sensors are 'plug and play' with Rue computers model 1 FIB and it is
compatable with Blaser-R-US' laser canon and all of them can be integrated
together of cause precision aimed mayhem with 'Joe code crunchers' Gunner
interact-1.  PROFIT FOR EVERBODY! and 'MR. Fixit' on Rigil can tune it up
with his standard dianostics package and Captain Hornblower of the Destroyer
Vigalence can use his querry software to make sure nothing unautherized has
been done like hiding so recreational pharmicuticals in the lasing tube..."I
know you wouldn't do that Gunner so you won't mind if I take remote control
at test fire that laser now would you?'

EFFECT 4) A universal language that the virus can use to take control of any
computer by compiling inself into that system with the manufacture provide
compiler!

How 1)  Some bright puppies in the 3Is electronic warfare section see all
this nice standardisation and get the idea that a 'ship killer virus' would
be a great way to easily put down a rebellion.

Problem 1) Most ship's captains are paranoid and keep their computers lock
down tight against normal com trafic.

Obsevation 1) The transponder has direct access to the computer!  Lets talk
to those bright boys that built that 'unbeatable' transponder.  

What?!  A life form!  How do we that thing to get our virus into the target
computer?  OH! they have preditors on that world also...and they are
naturally aggressive too?...and they are basicly computers too?...well we
might be on to something here.  

What if we lobodomised those preditors leaving them dumb and mean and then
taught them IC?  They would not be able to 'EAT' the mainframes but they
could take them over...OH! you say the could 'EAT' the transponder and use
it for their 'core' to attack other systems untill it broke the security and
could overwrite IDOS and once that happened the operaters would have no way
back into the system...Good Good but wouldn't a complete purge fix
that?...OH!  The transponder of course...and sleeper codes tacked onto any
write accessable executable by the infected compiler...including any
unsecured smart terminal and portables.  

And you say the sleeper code could reassemble itself over time using a
packet sequencing system...but wouldn't that be a much less efficent vector
and make it more likely that the code could be corrupted or mutated?...Oh,
it's only a backup system then, that should be ok.

What if they powered down, killed the transponder, wiped all storage media
except the original ROMs, and then did a complete rebuild?...It would take
HOW LONG!?!?...and they would loose all their records because the
incremental backups would be infected when IDOS was infected sence it
schedules the backups...and only computer-4+s are sufficently experienced to
feel confident to try that proceedure outside a class A or B starport.

Sounds like we have a failsafe system to stop a rebelion or a military coup.
The 3I will be free from the danger of Empirerers of the Flag...Just one
question, How do we stop it?  Oh, a delet code.  Sounds good but what if
this virus mutates in that packet recombination thing so that the code
doesn't work?...I see, end of the universe kind of thing...Not good, that's
a problem.  Oh, the odds of that happening are less than of a particular
star going nova on any particular day.  Well, if we were only to used it as
an absolutely last line of defence to save the 3I from distruction then if
it ran amoke we'd be in no worse shape than if we had lost and maybe knowing
what was going to happen we could recover before our enemy...

Ok, the project is approved.  We'll finance it through the gold plated
freasher fund.  Give it the hightest security rating AND need-to-know.


So, any canon flaws?  What about technical problems?


Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:45:03 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?

It was bad reporting.  They were talking about the Glock 17 when it was
introduced, but the Glock only has a polymer frame (with metal inserts) and
the rest is all metal.  Besides, it's my understanding that a properly tuned
airport x-ray machine can see a WATER pistol.  Can anyone confirm this?

Best,
Jesse
www.vision-forge-grahphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
"Striving to Produce a Better (Illustrated) Traveller Universe" (tm)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Rob Brady
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 11:17 AM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: RealLife(tm) Traveller Weapon?
>
>
>
> Along the same lines, several years ago I saw a TV news story stating
> that airport security were worried about a new pistol which was made
> entirely of non-metals (body pistol anyone?). I haven't heard anything
> about this though for several years, so I wonder if it was just bad
> reporting.
> --
> Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
> banging my head / no time for mourning
> ain't got no time  -- Creed
> Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #599
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